Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet => Topic started by: MrBBQ on January 02, 2010, 10:30:29 pm
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Hey all,
I've been trying to heal my teeth (a la Weston Price proposition) on a raw diet over the last couple of years, although it's proved quite unsuccessful thus far (actually losing more enamel).
I realise that it's problematic for me to be raw zero-carb (which has been effective for others hoping to increase bone density and repair teeth), so I'm generally trying to include minimal carbs to keep me out of ketosis.
However, most of the raw carb choices are fruit and honey (overly-sweet and acidic), plus nuts seem to promote tooth decay (I've eliminated all nuts for the foreseeable future).
Has anyone noticed tooth healing with raw omni (with maybe 100g raw animal fats per day) and the inclusion of Green Pasture raw fermented cod liver oil, Green Pasture butter oil and maybe some supplementary D3 and 6-12 (very orange) egg yolks per week?
I realise that raw butter is not paleo and that some strains of raw grass-fed butter are more suitable than others (that is, from A2 milk instead of A1 milk), but it's meant to be high in K2, which is very beneficial for tooth healing and bone building.
I realise that zero-carbers don't need raw butter to strengthen bones/teeth, but currently my low carb trials do not seem to be having the "stop the rot" effect that I need to save my teeth (functionally and aesthetically).
Is it possible that I'm just being impatient and that my nutritional status will gradually improve after 6-12 months, or should I change my protocol to just having fruit every couple of days? Personally, I reckon that eliminating the nuts will help, although I do reckon that fruit has a negative impact on my teeth, even in small quantities.
Does anyone alternate daily between honey and fruit, or anything else carby? I do secure possibly the finest honeycomb in my locality, which I could eat regularly in small amounts, but I like the idea of enjoying some vitamin C intake too. I've also been enjoying bee pollen from the same source, which I really enjoy.
I know that you (my good contemporaries) will have some useful guidelines for me, so here I am putting my enquiry into the ether...
Best,
Scotty
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maybe eat raw fruits/veggies/roots/squash that are high in vitamin C and low in sugar? berries, lettuces, cabbages(high in k and c), raw potatoes(high in C and minerals, they grow in the dirt!) rose hips?
what about fermented food if you have a problem with overly active detrimental bacteria in your mouth?
perhaps raw yogurt? sauerkraut?
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I guess this question goes here..
Even when i was zero carb, my teeth felt great, but i get this kind of build up on my front bottom teeth at the back of them, like some kind of plarquey stuff that sticks to my teeth and kind of semi-hardens.. I can take my nail and kinda pick it off and it comes off kind of like a sheet of whiteish... minerally stuff... any idea what this is?
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For teeth, I recommend bone meal. I haven't made my own raw bone meal yet, but I think I might soon. Meanwhile I use the store-bought brand. I also recommend getting a toothpaste with essential oils like tea tree oil and brushing with that, plus swishing the toothpaste for several minutes after you are done brushing. I also recommend healing clays like pascalite, and particularly I recommend swishing some healing clay or bone meal in your mouth RIGHT AFTER eating carbs. this helps a lot.
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@Jessica: Int'resting ideas...I've been thinking about juicing organic lettuces with cucumber and celery, or some occasional cabbage, but I'm not sure how natural some of these items are regarding our true heritage (for instance, the original wild lettuce was a narcotic, which was bred otherwise for nutrition), plus cabbages are goitrogenic (depleting iodine uptake in the thyroid gland). Naturally, rotating the various items would be prudent (just as rotation of herbs).
Incidentally, on occasion, I've been steeping some mineralising herbs like nettle, dandelion, horsetail and others at warm temperatures, but you never know what your oxalate intake and other anti-nutrients becomes.
Potatoes?! Aren't these like one of the worst offenders on blood glucose given their mainly starchy/polysaccharide make up? In my opinion, starch is one of the tragedies of human history, even though it's a dense energy source. Aside from the great minerals, why would anyone recommend this high-glycotic-rate food? My mum used to like raw potatoes when she was peeling and chopping them for deep-fried chips (she knows better now!), but they were never to my taste...I'd be interested to know if you can educate me some more about the humble "spud" (as we call them), but I hold it partially responsible for the recent premature death of my diabetic, insulin-resistant grandmother (who I tried to educate aside from the men in white coats).
Squashes are also starchy, although I can enjoy courgettes/zucchini when I buy them.
Humans have tried to be clever over the millennia in breeding these sugars/starches into fruit/veg with a lower mineral content coresponding to less vital soils - it's not easy finding properly-ripened, low-sugar/acid stuff!
Maybe the hard deposits from the saliva are minerals that aren't bio-available or something...I think I noticed this same effect when I was buffering my acidic ferments/juices with ground rocks (I was using this cheap stuff called CalMag). Just a thought...(in other words, I was drinking high TDS fermented beverages!)
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Well, my teeth deteriorated very rapidly while doing ZC. Previously, my teeth healed very quickly, as reported by most raw omnivores like me on this diet, once I cut out all the raw dairy, till my teeth became very strong. The only raw omnivores, other than you, who still report serious dental issues, are those who consume raw dairy products like raw butter etc.. Dairy has been routinely linked to osteoporosis and poor bones/teeth(re very poor calcium/magnesium ratio) so that's unsurprising.
I suspect there must be some other reason, other than RZC and R Omni for your health-issues since you claim to have issues with both raw zero-carb as well as raw omnivorous .
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Bone meal is a great suggestion, although I've found it impracticable to manufacture the fresh stuff myself. I've sat for a few hours trying to file small batches down, but I'm sure that it could easily become a full-time job without automation!
None of the local/regional butchers or farms that I know can provide bone meal (they have leftover bones collected by some contractor - I may ask for the contact details of the contractor and see if they can grind some for me!), so I suppose that the only alternative is bone broth, which is of course, boiled bones/collagen. I've boiled a few bones in the past, but I wonder what toxins are dissolved considering that the broth simmers for 24-48 hours.
I've previously looked for "store-bought" bone meal, but to be honest, I don't really know what you mean. If I Google "bone meal ...", the searches usually present the typical fertiliser offerings, rather than for human consumption - is that the stuff you're buying, or are there higher grades? Also, what about the mineral ratios in the bone meal - would it vary between grass-fed and grain-fed etc.?
Does anyone know of alternatives for making bone meal from fresh bones, such as smashing and then hand-stone-grinding? I reckon it would be great to have a couple of tablespoons worth of these bio-available minerals each day.
Is it worth me just having bone broths in the meantime to bring some more strength to the teeth (as a head start)?
I've experimented with tooth brushing formulas and the best stuff seems to be the Ayurvedic herb/bark powders with some added peppermint oil or neem oil - I've not tried tea tree oil though.
I've recently been consuming some french green clay, although I'm not sure how available the minerals are. I know that the clay is naturally-dried and high quality, but I can't seem to find any commentary on the bio-availability of the minerals. What do you reckon?
Normally, I do the oil swishing thing for better hygiene, plus I also swish with different things after carbs/acid to neutralise the mouth pH, although I have to be careful with clay given my amalgam fillings (I've tasted metals in my mouth before when clay swishing, given its metal-binding quality!).
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Well, Tyler, it's odd because my bite seems stronger and my teeth feel firmer in my jaw, but whenever I have anything that can cross the dentine pores/tubules and hit the nerve, I recognise that my teeth are still "weak". Also, the areas where the enamel has disappeared, revealing easily-stained dentine (brown areas on the tooth) seem to be growing.
I have some avenues to explore anyway...
I used to have a handful of long-soaked nuts every day, which may have tipped my mineral balance somehow - I've eliminated nuts completely now, except for the very odd occasion, when I may have one or two.
I'm wondering if the heavy metals in my mouth are causing some kind of dysbiosis, giving rise to unbalanced saliva pH.
Bile insufficiency (clogged bile ducts from liver/gallbladder, as well as stone-clogged gallbladder) causing nutrient uptake insufficiency(especially fat-soluble vitamins) could be the primary explanation.
It's possible that my enamel was universally compromised by years of a daily grapefruit and lemon slices in tea.
I just don't know, but I'm determined to discover what separates me from those healing their teeth with apparent ease. I know that there are some on this forum that mentioned only tooth healing when they included bone meal or clay, which is similar to the recommendations from the Weston Price Foundation regarding a steady mineral supply. I'm sure that the minerals must vary in grass-fed meat...
So Tyler, what are your raw carb staples please? Are we talking an apple and an orange, or anything more exotic?
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I guess this question goes here..
Even when i was zero carb, my teeth felt great, but i get this kind of build up on my front bottom teeth at the back of them, like some kind of plarquey stuff that sticks to my teeth and kind of semi-hardens.. I can take my nail and kinda pick it off and it comes off kind of like a sheet of whiteish... minerally stuff... any idea what this is?
It's called calculus. I get it and I know at least Lex has mentioned it in the past.
The odd part in my eyes is that I've been getting it for at least the last year, well beyond the time frame in which I'm been eating raw carnivorously. Prior to eating this way I was eating 95-100% of my calories from cooked chicken thighs for at least a year.
I think the calculus has to have some basis in higher protein intake. I'm not sure how though. -\
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Mr. BBQ; do a search on the forum for bone meal preparation. Van has mentioned at least twice that he files down rib bones with a ferrier's rasp to prepare his bone meal.
I can't comment on the efficiency of the method as I have not acquired a rasp yet but do plan to attempt this in the near future.
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Also, Tyler, I remember you saying somewhere that you didn't really eat that much fat along with your meat these days - just what comes along with the meat. Is that the case - that you're not adding suet, brisket, marrow or some other fat to each cut?
Really, looking at the raw paleo diet and its very varying efficacies, it seems like as much as a gamble as other approaches - namely one thing doesn't apply to everyone.
So, I suppose I'd be wondering who supplements their raw omni diet (or raw zero carb) with some kind of abundant minerals for any reasons...teeth compromisation, cramping or otherwise (and if so, why?)!
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Scotty, you may want to check out my dental health thread: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/considering-dental-health-options-vitamins-a-d3-k2/
I guess this question goes here..
Even when i was zero carb, my teeth felt great, but i get this kind of build up on my front bottom teeth at the back of them, like some kind of plarquey stuff that sticks to my teeth and kind of semi-hardens.. I can take my nail and kinda pick it off and it comes off kind of like a sheet of whiteish... minerally stuff... any idea what this is?
Neone, you may have had the calculus (aka tartar) before going raw Paleo. I had it for many years before going raw Paleo. It became more crumbly after I'd been doing RPD for several weeks, so that I could sometimes pick it off my teeth with my fingernail for the first time in my life (it had been too hard to do that before). One time a shard even fell off on its own after brushing my teeth. I think this is actually a good sign for my dental health.
Cutting down to just meats, animal fats and water had the greatest benefits from my dental health (with some tightening of loose teeth and some filling in of holes and pitting). However, I was still getting tartar, so I switched to raw cod liver oil for a possibly better source of vitamins A and D3 than conventional CLO, and I added a Dr. Ron's foodlement that includes K2. I haven't noticed much additional improvement since these latest changes, but it's early yet. I also tried Dr. Ron's bone meal, but I think it may have been worsening my constipation.
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Also, Tyler, I remember you saying somewhere that you didn't really eat that much fat along with your meat these days - just what comes along with the meat. Is that the case - that you're not adding suet, brisket, marrow or some other fat to each cut?
Re raw carbs mention in other post:- I eat a wide variety when I have it, depends on season/location(wild blackberries, organic blueberries/strawberries/rapsberries, medlars, oranges, bananas, pineapples, nectarines, watermelons. Less often I eat raw seaweed from the raw mussel-shells I get, very occasionally some raw radishes or raw samphire or raw carrots.
Re raw fat:- I used to always add raw fat like raw marrow to lean meats such as turkey but don't bother any more. I can eat raw marrow alone 1 day, then just eat raw turkey breast-fillets another day etc. I don't think that the raw fat issue is relevant, though, to teeth/bone-health. The health of my own teeth was primarily dependent to cutting out all raw dairy from my diet, and to a lesser extent to eating some raw meat in the diet - the raw carbs don't affect my teeth as long as I eat some raw meats as well.
Really, looking at the raw paleo diet and its very varying efficacies, it seems like as much as a gamble as other approaches - namely one thing doesn't apply to everyone.
Given that so many come to this diet with really serious health-issues, some of them incurable on any diet, such as genetic diseases, that's not surprising.
So, I suppose I'd be wondering who supplements their raw omni diet (or raw zero carb) with some kind of abundant minerals for any reasons...teeth compromisation, cramping or otherwise (and if so, why?)!
[/quote] Some feel the need. After having had truly abysmal experiences with processed mineral supplements etc. ,pre-rawpalaeodiet, I view those mineral supplements with severe scepticism, though
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I've previously looked for "store-bought" bone meal, but to be honest, I don't really know what you mean. If I Google "bone meal ...", the searches usually present the typical fertiliser offerings, rather than for human consumption - is that the stuff you're buying, or are there higher grades? Also, what about the mineral ratios in the bone meal - would it vary between grass-fed and grain-fed etc.?
I don't know if the mineral ratios vary between grass-fed and grain-fed. I just order it online. There's Now brand and KAL brand, plus there are others. Those are both sold for human consumption.
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Thanks Paleophil, but im pretty sure mine is accumulating on my teeth.. like I will get a kind of build-up on my two front bottom teeth at the back that kind of sets into the small gap between them and along the base.. ill take my fingernail and pretty easily pick it off, its kind of crumbly. After a month or so i will have another build-up starting.
My wife's inference is that its coming out of my throat from crappy diet in the past since i noticed it even when i was eating nothing but meat and fat.
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i suggested potatoes because they grow in the dirt and are known to absorb many of the minerals from the soil....i think if you can find a more heritage variety you can avoid the imbreeding of henious amounts of starch , i grow beautiful purple peruvian's, they are the color of blueberries all the way through, exceptionally juicy, not sweet or starchy, i can tell they are nutrient/mineral rich
i think celery would be excellent to chew(i would avoid juicing, unless you are willing to chew your juice to activate your saliva/enzymes, which kind of defeats the purpose?)
you just have to know your source of these, because honestly one can grow potatoes in a base of newspaper and water, but there will be minimal minerals in the resulting potatoes, but if they are coming from a healthy mineral rich soil source, the resulting produce will be mineral rich as well
i think that seaweed was also a good suggestion, i have also known people to take calcium from coral source which may be very similar to bone meal....maybe eat fish that are small enough you can eat the bones...
i think if you are having a problem with tartar, and that if you possible think it is coming from your throat, fermenting meat, milk or cabbages would be an excellent way to repopulate with helpful bacteria and also clear some mucus...i think the worry about cabbages is overblown unless you already have thyroid failure/goiters...you can make sauerkraut with kelp which contains iodine would negate the iodine uptake problem
wild lettuce still exists, i harvested quite a bit this summer and have a good deal growing in my back yard, it is like an overgrown/tall dandelion, and has the same milky bitter sap, which is where the narcotic(opiate) effect as well as the medicinal(liver tonic) effect comes from
mostly i think one needs to eat what resonates with themselves and their bodies, but not adhere to something so strictly that they dont experiment or honor intuition
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Thanks Paleophil, but im pretty sure mine is accumulating on my teeth.. like I will get a kind of build-up on my two front bottom teeth at the back that kind of sets into the small gap between them and along the base.. ill take my fingernail and pretty easily pick it off, its kind of crumbly. After a month or so i will have another build-up starting.
My wife's inference is that its coming out of my throat from crappy diet in the past since i noticed it even when i was eating nothing but meat and fat.
Yup, that's what I mean. I get that too, regardless of what I eat. I've had it for decades, except now it comes off easier. My hygienist said it's because there are two saliva glands under the tongue behind the bottom teeth and I must have excess calcium or phosphorous in my saliva that combines with food particles and dead plaque bacterial cells to form tartar. I asked her if magnesium would help and she said no. No matter how much I brush and floss I get it. Lex said his went away some point after adopting his raw meat/fat/organs/water diet. Mine is still with me so far. That's why I started that dental thread. Vitamins A, D3 and K2 are supposed to help, according to some people.
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Thanks for all of the pointers, which I really appreciate.
@Jessica: You seem pretty wildcraft-savvy, which is refreshing. Do you know the name of the peruvian breed because there're quite a few that're purple available, although none of them are called "Peruvian Purple" as such (that is, on the regional websites offering seed potatoes). I like the idea of the purple spuds though, if they're starch-free and low-glycotic-rate. I like your kelpy-sauerkraut too, but there's the caveat that sauerkraut is full of organic acids, which are destructive of tooth enamel (counter-productive, even though sauerkraut is great in many ways, especially in that there're some K2 quinones in there).
@Tyler: Just out of interest, how come you're eating bananas and pineapples, knowing how screwed up their gene pools are(?) - nothing like the original ones...I don't consider these almost morbidly-hybridised species to represent paleo nourishment, so I'm naturally interested in your mindset. For me, a single banana elevates (and crashes) my blood sugar all too easily...
I've not been able to procure myself an appropriate file for bone meal yet (nor the time to sit and produce it), but I've just decided to do some interim experimentation with bone broths (for the short term) and will gauge the effect on my teeth in the next couple of weeks, just to see if the high mineral level will make a difference. I realise that bone broths are less-than-optimal as a long-simmered item, but I'm getting a little desperate with my teeth and I need to find a balance somewhere...(nowhere to run, nowhere to hide!)
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look on the net under ferrier supplies. You want a file that has the small many lined up grooves on a diagonal. the file is over a foot long, get a good handle. Keep it and the bone in the freezer between filings. It takes me maybe 2-3 minutes for filing. I only eat freshly filed. It's easy.
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Van thanks for the tip. I'll file that for further use.
Regarding the teeth, in Ayurveda when you eat a lot of food that aggrivates Pitta (don't worry about what that means for now) the heat or Pitta builds up in the seat of Pitta. (the stomach) When it gets too much for that area it starts to spread.
Since Pitta is essentially heat it naturally flows uphill. Since your mouth is uphill from your stomach the Pitta migrates to your mouth. A goiter is another symptom. This excess heat eats away at the mucous membrane in the mouth and the gums and brings on a variety of symptoms of which rotting teeth is one, cankers is another (my isssue) A friend of mine's ex was so in love with sour food and drink that her Pitta was out of whack for years, resulting in dental pain so intense that she tried the anaesthetic toothpaste (Sensodyne) which is a very bad idea no matter what your dentist tells you.
Then at her wits end with pain, she had all her teeth removed.... ouch! I tried to tell her the sour food and drink was the problem, but her sour and foul temper kept her from changing her habits. She ended up having a nervous breakdown and incredible fits of anger problems which sunk her marriage, but that's another story.
Essentially the sour (Pitta) eats away at the teeth causing holes which get infected and the gums recede and expose the root of the teeth causing huge pain. When you run your fingernail down your tooth to the gum you will notice a depression at the juncture. If this depression is pronounced then you have or will have dental pain when the root is exposed to air or cold or hot. If you go to a dentist with this issue, initially they will simply paint something that my dentist called lacquer or varnish (I forget which) but it literally just coats the area. Nothing more. It is a stopgap because if you continue eating sour, salty foods that aggrivate Pitta, the gums teeth will continue to deteriorate and next step is classified as periodontal disease (I believe) This is very expensive and painful etc.
Solution -
ditch the fruit, anything sour , sugar (anything but honey) salty flavours, hot or spicy or pungent foods such as pepper or chilis, onion, garlic and so forth. If you have honey absolutely get raw unheated honey and have it with an equal amount of raw unheated butter.
Basically avoid - sour, salty and pungent foods period, no matter how much your nutritional theories suggest them. Reduce water intake also.
Favour sweet tasting foods like chicken, beef and foods that taste sweet without processed sugar. Favour sweet, bitter and astringent foods.
The lists are long and so to get a better idea go to http://www.ayurveda.com/online_resource/index.html and click on Food Guidelines under Food and nutrition guidelines. Then look under Pitta and follow the columns of favour and reduce. These lists cover all the basis no matter what diet you are following. Dr Lad is a vegetarian but he is also a Doctor of Ayurveda which is not traditionally a vege system so he lists everything. You pick what you want.
Aajonus also suggests eating fats whether it be from butter, avocado etc when you eat fruit, but if you have serious issues, just give up the fruit. You will see a gradual increase in dental comfort or issues will subside depending on how bad they are. Your body type sounds like you have a Pitta imbalance.
Honestly I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone would try to live on fruit. But that's just me. For some body types more fruit can be tolerated, but not a Pitta. I get cankers (open mouth sores) from just about thinking about eating fruit : )
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I got a nasty cancer sore just from eating a handful of pineapple chunks recently.
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Solution -
ditch the fruit, anything sour , sugar (anything but honey) salty flavours, hot or spicy or pungent foods such as pepper or chilis, onion, garlic and so forth. If you have honey absolutely get raw unheated honey and have it with an equal amount of raw unheated butter.
Basically avoid - sour, salty and pungent foods period, no matter how much your nutritional theories suggest them. Reduce water intake also.
Favour sweet tasting foods like chicken, beef and foods that taste sweet without processed sugar. Favour sweet, bitter and astringent foods.
Is Kefir good for a Pitta? I don't see it listed here: http://www.ayurveda.com/online_resource/food_guidelines.pdf
Also, how do you find out which type you are?
I read the description about Pitta type here: http://www.holisticonline.com/ayurveda/ayv-pitta-characteristics.htm and could identify with some of the characteristics.
... but than, I also read the one about Vata here: http://www.holisticonline.com/ayurveda/ayv-vata-characterisitics.htm and found some matching characteristics there too.
Things may not be black and white here.
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I have been binging on honey as of late and I just noticed this morning that my teeth look slightly transparent from acid erosion.
This fucking frightened me. I'm never touching honey again
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and I just read this
Honey also has the highest sugar content of all the natural sweeteners, and even has more sugar content than refined sugar; in fact, it can rot teeth faster than table sugar, possibly because of its stickiness and the fact that its vitamin and mineral content, however small, may provide a favorable environment for bacteria.
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Ayurveda says this about honey. Honey is a powerful sweetener that will aggrivate Pitta. It and molasses are the sweeteners that Pitta should not eat a lot of because they are also considered to be pungent. However I have discovered that if you eat it with an equal amount of raw butter and if the honey is raw unheated like Aajonus says, this effect is not noticeable.
If you binge on anything you will get sick. Period.
Pineapple is very pitta aggravating but is good for woman's sexual health. I love the stuff but cannot eat it.
My take on Kefir is that the milk has been partially digested by the microbes, but if a person has a lot of Pitta characteristics (temper, red or thinning hair, fair or light skin or freckles, medium build, medium memory, etc) then their stomach is fairly robust and can digest more than other people so the digestive help is overkill and it's like adding fire to fire. Essentially you can take kefir, but in moderation. Again nobody should binge on anything. You will know if you are eating too much as you will senses a sour taste in your mouth later on. Kefir is probably listed as yogourt on his list as yogurt is more common in India. Basically if you want to eat the kefir, eat a small amount that is fresh and not gone sour. Make it by putting raw unheated honey in milk and letting it turn to kefir naturally.
Your body type is a mix of a variety and everyone is unique. What you do is to read the questionaire and answer each question individually. Then you tally up the number of Pitta , Kapha and Vata characteristics and see which one is dominant. This is your dominant dosha and so you should follow a diet that follows that dominant one. ie if you are say 50% Kapha then you should follow the Kapha diet list. If the next dominant one on the list is a close second then you should modify your list by combining the list from that one. So if it says Pitta first then Vata next you should combine the list to be a Pitta / Vata list. It may seem complicated but you will notice over time that certain parts of the list will be screamingly obvious because when you eat them you will get a reaction. Without seeing this list we all eventually figure these things out but this just simplifies it.
Naturally seeing an Ayuvedic practitioner (no I am not drumming up business) will make the whole process easier, faster and less confusing, but you can figure it out yourself. The daily routine list on that site and the food combining chart is also a good idea to read.
The system does not tell you what to eat, it merely says if you eat this or that or combine this or that or if you eat something in the morning or afternoon, this will be the result and if you want to reduce a certain problem then favour these types of foods.
The modern reductionist food system is bull feathers in my extremely humble opinion. Discussing proteins and carbohydrates, vitamins and cholesterol is confusing and it leads to nowhere because every day a scientist comes out with a new version of "the proper diet" and what everyone "should" eat. I am always suspicious of the "latest scientific breakthrough" in nutrition. I always know that someone with a financial intent (selling something) is behind it.
Ayurveda says to eat what is appropriate to your body type if you want to be comfortable and live a long hearty life. ie if something hurts then don't do it, your body has an inherent intelligence.
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I read that questionnaire and it seems that I score about the same on all 3. The type with highest score (only by point difference!) was Pitta though.
So that means I can mix them however I want :)
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Sometimes it is better to have someone else monitor your answers a bit. However you are right in that you are probably one of the rare people who are tri-doshic. This can be good or bad. If you get out of whack though it can be trickier to get back because it is hard to know what got you out of whack. I honestly don't know enough to comment any more. Someone with more knowledge may say a lot more.
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Thanks for the Ayurveda tips. It's yet another thing to think about/experiment.
It looks like those recommendations are for individual foods so maybe certain combination have a different effect. I almost never eat just one food at a time.
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Majormark,
You hit the nail on the head. For instance potatoes and peas will aggravate a Vata person but if you put on lots of butter / ghee / some sort of grease : ) then it is fine.
Essentially each food has an effect or virya in Sanskrit. The effect is Pitta, Vata or Kapha (PKV) and then this is further broken down (in one of the forms at that site) into one or more of the six tastes sweet, salty, sour, bitter, pungent and astringent. Then each dosha (P, V, K are doshas) has a set of tastes that pacify and ones that aggravate it. For instance P and V are pacified by sweet but it aggravates K because a kapha person gains weight easily.
The system is quite easily explained but naturally to get right into it requires someone to show you. Pulse diagnosis is the coolest part of the system.
An easy book to get an intro to it is Dr Vasant Lad's book "Ayurveda The Science of Self healing". In India it is the health system for the poor as the British succeeded in convincing the natives that modern medicine knew it all.
When I read Aajonus's book it knocked me flat on my back. Broke my religion of 23 years. Vegie an all. I kept running to my girlfriend and saying look what he says about this and that and everything. It was scary that it made so much sense. The historical stuff fit in with what I was told by the Vaidya I know.
However things have settled down and I have welcomed it wholeheartedly. I have taken the new info and folded the Ayurvedic stuff in with it. Still haven't come out of the closet with all my vegie buddies yet -X
It is difficult to eat raw pastured beef and liver tastes like ahem... you know what.
I did not go into this because I was sick. Quite the contrary I am very healthy. Haven't had any illness in years. I use Ayurveda to keep me comfy. I do not agree with Aajonus's contention that you should welcome illness. Illness to me is a result of boo boos. I know myself well enough to catch booboos before they erupt into flames.
Hate to sound like a proselytizer but Ayurveda is a companion to any diet. Because the knowledge has nothing to do with individual foods or nutrients.
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Well, if you want to add some more "punch" to nutrition you could also study Quantum Touch and run energy into the food before you eat to see how that affects you. They claim some good things can happen. I understand at least one course with a good trainer is necessary in order to get the skill. I never really tried it yet, but maybe I'll find some time in the future.
For now, I got a 600+ pages book on Ayurveda... hmm.
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Hi raw-all,
what you are writing is very interesting. I never thougt Ayurveda could be compatibel with raw paleo.
I am a raw foodist for years, mostly vegetarien and vegan und quite very smal I think I definitly have to gain weight but I do not get it with veggies and sprouts and nuts and stuff, that is why I am going to try raw paleo. I like the Ayurvedic aproach and tried it a coupel of times but this mostly vegetarien cooking thing does not feels right to me.
I am a vata almost 100 % and a woman. So what should I eat in an ayurvedic paleo lifestyl.
Why do thy write that lamb is not good for Vata. I thougt it must be very good because it is so yang (heating) and I feel often very cold. And it is a healty meat. What about dairy. I used to make my own raw goat joghurt and I have sometimes raw sheep cheese and raw butter of corse and raw cream?
Also I still eat a lot of raw veggies, it is a habit and it satisfies my hunger, is it good for me?
What about sprouts like buckwheat and oats, lentils, I think it is not even paleo? And wild Herbs?
How much raw eggs would be ok for a smal vata woman?
Would love to know what you think about it.
:) Noel
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First of all I am impressed with the people in Europe who know so many languages. Such a wonderful thing.
Ayurveda nowadays is associated with vegetarians but in reality it is not vege at all. All the different meats affect the doshas and are well described in "The Caraka Samhita" the best of the Ayurvedic texts. A German was one of the first Europeans to translate the Vedic texts (Sanskrit ) and I am not sure if he translated The Caraka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_M%C3%BCller
If you are mostly vata then meat generally is a good idea because it is heavy. But you are right lamb is not so good. I cannot explain that one as I have not eaten or studied lamb. Dairy is very good for you, but warm it up to a comfortable temperature (not more than the cow's body temperature, whatever that is.) In other words do not drink milk from the fridge. At the minimum drink it at room temperature.
Raw vegies and sprouts will aggravate vata. Cream, butter and cheese pacify vata. Soft cheese may be better. Yogurt is better if it is diluted with water and add some rose water and cardamom and coriander or whatever spice you like. The reason you dilute the yogurt is that yogurt tends to clump up and when you eat it it is difficult for the stomach to break up the clumps. Put it through a blender etc for maybe 30 seconds to break up the clumps. If it is too hard to digest then make salty lassi instead.
Eat smaller meals and eat more frequently.
If you want to find out the affect that a food has on you, eat a lot of something over a period of time and see what happens. Then stop eating that item(s) for say a month and see what happens.
When the list says avoid something, if you eat it with something like butter or other liquid, warm, oily things that pacify vata it will reduce or eliminate the difficulty.
Raw eggs are fine as they are wet and slimy (the opposite of vata)
Another thing is look at the list of - Incompatible Food Combining (PDF Document) at www.ayurveda.com
Vata tends to have a variable digestion in other words it works, then it is sluggish, then it works, so smaller meals are easier. Get plenty of fats, oils and warmth.
Traveling is tough on you. Keep warm and try to avoid rushing, breathe deeply, get plenty of sunshine and do abayanga (sp) warm oil massage on yourself daily. Follow the Daily Routine PDF at www.ayurveda.com site.
Vata is the section of your GI tract that starts around the small intestine involved with absorption and elimination so try squatting when you evacuate the bowels. May seem strange to climb up on the toilet rim to do it, but it will help you. If you get constipated eat more raw butter or ghee.
Personally I think that raw paleo is the ideal diet for vata as I am quite a bit vata also.
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Hi raw-all,
thanks a lot for your answer, it will help me a lot I think. How comes that you know so much about ayurveda. I saw that you are Canadian. As a raw foodist with some vata, don t you have problems to keep yourself warm in the canadien winter?
All that I wrote about Ayurveda and nutrition is that they advise to eat mostly cooked food, especially for vata. And everything in moderation. And grains and legumes with all meals and some cooked veggies and some raw. Eating almost exclusively animal flesh and products does not seem to fit very well in the context? Do you eat veggies As well or fruits or nuts to balance your meals and to bring variety or do you think it is better to stay with animal food only?
Everything you wrote about the vata dosha feels very right to me and I really will pratice these things. Do you think I have to totally stop eating raw vegetables or can I take some perhaps with meet and butter? And sprouts? I used to love my sprouts (but I allways get bloated when I eat to mutch or to often of them). About egg yolks, how mutch per day would be reasonable for a woman. I know it is difficult to answer, the reason I ask is that I always read that 2 yolks per day is the max. but I love them and I could even eat some more. What do you think about bone marrow? And about Avocado, Olives and coconut (some Staples for me) and about flax seed?
How is your daily diet and routine? What dosha are you and since when and why are you paleo.
quite some questions ;) thanks a lot for your help
blessings
Noel
noel
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Lots of questions!
Without doing a full consultation I cannot be accurate so what I say is just generalizations. I am an Ayurvedic Practitioner although I learned it for knowledge only.
Nowadays Ay. suggests warm cooked foods for everyone and Kapha people are OK for raw veges. You have to bear in mind that the author is from India and is a person who feels that vegetarian is necessary for spiritual development and so he is speaking from the viewpoint of an average Indian so that means they eat cooked food.
I am doing the raw paleo omnivorous diet out of curiosity. I eat very little fruit and drink the vege juices that Aajonus suggests. I eat no nuts as he suggests unless it is with the nut butter recipe which I haven't tried yet. I am still a bit uncomfortable with all the meat because I have had 20+ years of being vege.
With raw veges I would tend to do as AV suggests by juicing them if possible and adding raw unheated honey to them to make them less Vata aggravating.
According to AY. sprouts aggravate Vata. Anything crunchy does that. They are hard to digest so other than the taste that you like they are as useful as eating rocks. You are asking your GI tract to do a huge amount of work to try and digest something that it is not strong enough to digest. So you get gas which bloats you. Someone out there thinks everyone in the world should eat sprouts and tofu. They are probably selling it. For Kapha persons sprouts are an excellent idea.
Eat as many raw eggs as you like. They are perfect for you. Eat the whole egg (obviously except the shell ;) ) Every time I read articles that say everyone should eat this or that I cringe at how the fool arrived at such a conclusion. We all have different nutritional needs.
Bone marrow, avocado, olives, and coconut are fine for you. Flax is not so good.
My daily diet varies since I started this diet. It is rarely the same and when I travel it all goes out the window. :)
Paleo made sense when I read AV's books. I have given myself 6 months to see if the diet is useful. Gotta admit no cooking is a bonus. Electric bill should plummet.
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Hi raw-all,
makes a lot of sense what you are writing. I wish I had known about it earlier.
what do you use for your veggie juice. would be juicing sprouts a good idea?
with the juicing thing I don't get it. Some say that it is superhealthy and others, a lot of paleos as well, think that stuff is poisonous because of the antinutritions and stuff. I think lots of greens have some antinutritions, carrots and things have starches, cruciferus have goiterogens, some plants have a lot of oxalic acid and so on. What do you think about wheatgras. And do you think smoothies could be good?
At the moment I just put vegetable, spices, meat or fish and something fatty like butter or coconut or bone marrow or avocado in a food processor and mix it until I cant be see or taste what it was before and than I can eat (and digest) it. actually it tastes quite good and I don't need much of it. I would love to let go of the huge amounts of food I had to eat as a raw vegan. You are so right with what you wrote about vata eating sprouts and vegetable's is like eating stones. This is how I feel a long time. I eat and I eat ( all so healthy stuff) but I am starving. The only time I could gain weight and substance while doing raw was when I ate a lot of high sugar fruit with nuts. But I was never very comfortable with all this fruit, made me irritable and hurt my teethe. High fat as a raw vegan did not work for me neather. I always felt sick with all this fat and the huge fat veggie smoothies I made. So I found this thing with eating sprouts as a staple food. Do you think it would be good to cook the sprouts
About eggs, this morning I was a bit hungry so I decided to start my day with two raw egg yolks. O my god, I was so sick the whole day, don't now if it was because 2 is to much or if it was just to early to eat, (normally I do not eat so fast after getting up? Anyway I have this problem a lot, I eat something, often if some fat is involved, and after it I am really really sick, often cant eaten for a long time after it, seems that everything rests in my stomach, does not moves for hours and makes me nauseous. At the end I often loose weight this way, funny because I did it simply to gain weight -\
Because raw paleo is also high fat I am wondering if I could strengthen my fat digesting abilities. Or is it that it will come when I have myself adapted with the new foods?
Why do you think that flax is not good for me? High in omega 3. And what about hemp?
I always head you should not eat the egg white raw. You think it is better?
How do you feel with the raw paleo diet? Do you recognize some improvement? I think I do have to read ajonious books, the fist one I bought already, the second one is quite expensive. Is there any other book you can recommend.
It must be difficult to stay on the diet while traveling. Where do you travel to?
all the best
Noel
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raw all, just forgot to ask, ;D
what do you think about raw seewed, dulse and spaghetti, almonds, durian and hemp nuts or hemp oil for Vata? and what about meat from horses? And fish eggs. And liver -X The reason I ask is because I have to order some things und would like to choose things that are sort of supportive this time ;)
thanks a lot again
Noel
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Hey all,
I've been trying to heal my teeth (a la Weston Price proposition) on a raw diet over the last couple of years, although it's proved quite unsuccessful thus far (actually losing more enamel).
...
Has anyone noticed tooth healing with raw omni (with maybe 100g raw animal fats per day) and the inclusion of Green Pasture raw fermented cod liver oil, Green Pasture butter oil and maybe some supplementary D3 and 6-12 (very orange) egg yolks per week?
I realise that raw butter is not paleo and that some strains of raw grass-fed butter are more suitable than others (that is, from A2 milk instead of A1 milk), but it's meant to be high in K2, which is very beneficial for tooth healing and bone building.
...
I know that you (my good contemporaries) will have some useful guidelines for me, so here I am putting my enquiry into the ether...
Best,
Scotty
Hi Scotty,
I share your experiences. I've been eating this way for 10 years now in which time my teeth have only worsened. My gums are receding quite badly and I've recently noticed a growing transparency on some teeth which, I can only assume, is a result of mineral loss. I also have the calculus problem you so accurately described.
A quick summary: This WOE for me started with AV's primal diet but, for the last 6 years or so, has been pretty much RPD. I'm also VLC now and have been for many months. As a rule, I no longer consume any fruit or honey. Struggling to reliably source good animal fat sources I have recently re-introduced raw grass-fed butter. I've been taking the Green Pastures fermented CLO for a number of years. I've experimented with supplementing with home-made ground egg shells as a source of Ca. I bought a file to grind bones as directed by Van but obviously bought the wrong type as it didn't work. I'm still hopeful that this method could provide a solution, however, and will try buying another file/farrier's rasp.
I agree with some of your, and other's, reflections as to what may be at the root of this issue - mouth bacteria, mineral imbalance (through insufficient ingestion, poor assimilation, or interruption via consumption of dairy or other inappropriate foods ) etc. My concerns that this diet was causing Ca/Mg imbalances was alleviated somewhat by Lex's bone scan results but my own continuing dental deterioration remains a worry.
As Tyler points out, our experiences seem to be in a minority. Most people experience much improved dental health. The assumption must be, therefore, that there remains a single or multiple factors common to us that does not exist in other's eating this way. This could be a myriad of things - many of which have already been mentioned. One prominent factor in my mind, beyond perhaps a shared biological/physiological pre-condition (which must also remain a primary causative factor), is the consumption of salt. I think I'm correct in saying that I am in a minority among other RPDers in that I still consume Celtic or Himalayan salt. This goes back to my adrenal problems which causes my body to lose salt. But, I'm beginning to suspect this may be throwing out my mineral balance. Do you still eat salt Scotty?
Please keep this thread updated with your progress as I consider this an important issue. You are not alone!
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Scotty and Michael, are you getting plenty of all the dental-related nutrients, like vitamins A, D3, MK4-K2, magnesium and calcium and what shape is your gut in (poor gut flora and damaged intestinal epithelial cells can reduce your absorption of those nutrients)?
If you can't file bones or get raw or near-raw edible bones in another way, like from dried fish, then maybe another option to consider would be slow-cooking bones to make them edible, or bone broths? I know it's not raw Paleo, but it comes close and it sounds like you have extreme cases that may call for more unusual measures than what others require.
I've also found some dental products that work fairly well for me: Quantum gum cream (it contains good stuff like myrrh, neem and tea tree oil, though it also contains a small amount of lecithin), Thera Neem herbal mouthwash, and tea tree oil toothpicks.
Chewing on suet, beef jerky (dried at 95 F or air dried) or chewy meat also cleans my teeth, as it does dogs'.
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Thanks for your thoughts and suggestion Phil. Much appreciated!
Interestingly, I have been contemplating consuming bone broth again recently as I've been making it for my son. (This is due to the fact that the only foods we can get him to eat so far is cooked fish/seafood in beef bone broth along with a few select raw foods such as butter, egg yolks and goat yoghurt! Oh, and he does love scrambled eggs with lots of raw butter!)
I am reluctant to start regularly eating cooked foods but I guess I may have to seriously consider it if I can find no other solution. I would expect Tyler to point the finger at the raw butter I've starting eating again quite recently but there was a long period without it which showed no dental improvement.
I think my GI tract is in a poor state along with problems with digestion, liver, adrenals etc. All a legacy from my previous poor nutritional upbringing/lifestyle/diet and the resultant health issues. I expect absorption is still an issue. I think I'm probably ok on the consumption of A,D,K2 although the assimilation may be a different matter. I do recall you doing great research on this matter, however, and would greatly appreciate a reminder of the preferred sources of these vitamins if you have a moment? I've also thought for many years that I have problems with Vit A despite my level of consumption, for instance, as I've suffered with night blindness since I was a child!
The Mg and Ca have long been concerns on this diet for me as I see little sources of either of them! As I mentioned, Lex's bone scan was a relief for me in this respect and I'm confident much of the modern requirement for vast quantities of these minerals is related to anti-nutrients in modern diets. But, theory isn't currently helping my teeth! I'm pinning great hope on van's suggestions of filing bone. (no pressure van!) ;)
I do clean my teeth as little as possible (perhaps 3 or 4 times pw) and use a simple homemade concoction of bicarb, very diluted hydrogen peroxide and spearmint essential oil. I only rinse with still bottled spring water.
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If you have dental decay and dental plaque, I would clean more often, using natural substances of course.
Some Traditional Factors that Promote Dental Health:
(The basics are sunlight + liver/greens + fat + bones)
• Sunlight (D3)
• Raw fermented cod liver oil (A and D3); if you don’t get much sunlight you’ll probably want to add some Carlson’s D3 fat-containing gels (alternatively, use a dry D3 supplement and try taking fish oil with it for absorption)
• Pastured liver and liver-containing foods, like bug/worm-fed poultry eggs, shellfish and other whole fish (A, D3, MK4-K2)
• Edible bones, like soft raw bones, dried or low&slow-cooked until soft, or simmered into a broth (calcium, phosphorous, magnesium, silicon); also insects, lizards, bird embryos (balut), small birds, rodents, and other small critters with bones and bonelike structures (calcium--there's some of the missing calcium among peoples that don't eat dairy)
• Raw, young greens and brassica (K1, magnesium, calcium) with fat for absorption (mature, tough and bitter green veggies should be fermented, steamed, simmered or quickly chowed to neutralize antinutrients and make the nutrients more digestible)
• Raw pastured butter (MK-4 K2)
• Probiotic foods and fermented foods reported to promote healthy gut flora (which help with absorption of fat-soluble nutrients--A, D3, MK-4 K2), such as high meat, fermented fish, unsalted fermented raw vegetables like sauerkraut and nightshade-free kimchi
• Raw animal fats to help absorb the fat soluble nutrients (A, D3, MK-4 K2) and soothe the gut
• Kelp and other seaweed (K1, calcium, magnesium)
• Fatty fish (like herring, sardines and salmon) and the meat, blood, organs (see above), fat and bones (see above) of grassfed cattle raised outdoors on mineral-rich pastures or fed mineral supplements (A, D3, MK-4 K2, calcium, phosphorous, magnesium, silicon)
• Fatty fruits (like coconut and avocado) to help with absorption of fat soluble nutrients (A, D3, MK-4 K2, K1), if digested well
Did you notice that most of these factors are found in the traditional diet and lifestyle of coastal Arctic hunter-gatherers like coastal Inuit and Chukchi? I don’t think it’s coincidence that traditional Inuit were found to have the highest jaw strength of any people measured. There are probably other factors too, like the fact that traditional Arctic peoples used their teeth to tear, chew and soften/work skins, hides and frozen meats and ate more of their meats and fish raw than most peoples.
Also recall the gleaming white fangs of the wild wolf for whom dental caries are a rarity (and when they occur I read that they tend to self-heal--amazing!...sorry, I lost the reference, but learning about wolves and other wild facultative and obligate carnivores is highly recommended) and think about what the wolf eats.
I probably missed some foods and nutrients. I hope I remembered the basics.
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Thanks Phil. I really appreciate you taking the time to consider and type all of that! It will serve as a useful reference and reminder as, even though I've been aware of most of these things over time, my short-term memory issues most often means it gets forgotten.
Along with the Blue Ice fermented CLO that I've been consuming now for a number of years, I do utilise many of the foods on this list but could certainly do with focusing on them a little more and adding some that I may be missing.
A bit more emphasis on gaining significant body surface area sun exposure and dental hygiene would probably also be a good idea.
Thanks again for this. I'll try to remember to update the thread over time with any improvements just for the record.
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Michael,
How did the eggshell experiment pan out?
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raw-al, I've discontinued the practice for now and will be trying the homemade bonemeal instead.
I didn't notice any improvement with the egg shell but then probably didn't religiously stick to it for long enough. My concern with it was also that, whilst they're high in Ca, they're NOT high in Mg. Therefore, they're potentially causing further harm by unbalancing the critical Ca/Mg ratio if sufficient Mg is not obtained from elsewhere. I did have a period of eating raw cacao for this reason (very high in Mg) which was only edible when eaten with raw honey. Eventually I decided the whole practice was becoming farcical and far removed from true paleo principles.
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With my teeth healing at the forefront of my mind, I've been sporadically experimenting with grinding bones as directed by van as a source of Ca, Mg and other bone/teeth building minerals. But, to be honest, I'm finding it quite a pain and don't know if it's something that I'll be able to consistently adhere to.
So, I keep coming back to this same issue - how to supply sufficient Ca/Mg on a VLC RPD diet. I've been thinking about other sources of Ca/Mg and it appears that dried herbs can be a particularly good source. Dried Coriander leaves, particularly, supply good quantities of Ca/Mg which are also in a good ratio. According to NutritionData, 100g of dried coriander supplies Ca 1246mg and Mg 694mg. I've been looking into the production methods of commercially bought dried herbs and it is possible that they're dried at low temperature to preserve the essential oils responsible for the wonderfully distinctive flavours. I'm also considering the prospect of buying a commercial dehydrator to low temperature dry my own home-grown, remineralised bulk herbs which I think could serve as a potentially superb source of minerals (and possible business project).
Any thoughts?
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With my teeth healing at the forefront of my mind, I've been sporadically experimenting with grinding bones as directed by van as a source of Ca, Mg and other bone/teeth building minerals. But, to be honest, I'm finding it quite a pain and don't know if it's something that I'll be able to consistently adhere to.
So, I keep coming back to this same issue - how to supply sufficient Ca/Mg on a VLC RPD diet. I've been thinking about other sources of Ca/Mg and it appears that dried herbs can be a particularly good source. Dried Coriander leaves, particularly, supply good quantities of Ca/Mg which are also in a good ratio. According to NutritionData, 100g of dried coriander supplies Ca 1246mg and Mg 694mg. I've been looking into the production methods of commercially bought dried herbs and it is possible that they're dried at low temperature to preserve the essential oils responsible for the wonderfully distinctive flavours. I'm also considering the prospect of buying a commercial dehydrator to low temperature dry my own home-grown, remineralised bulk herbs which I think could serve as a potentially superb source of minerals (and possible business project).
Any thoughts?
Interesting that coriander leaves are what you arrived as a solution.
Personally I would not dry any herbs unless I had to. They are more potent and bioavailable by just taking them of the plant and into the palette.
However were I to do so I would cut them and hang them upside down in the house wherever fine herbs are hung. ;D
Having said that Michael Tierra, C.A., N.D. who has written a few books on herbs that are considered to be well written, says:
"Most herbs should be dried in a warm, well-ventilated, dry environment, by spreading them out in a single layer on a wire mesh or screen. Daily turning will assure even drying and fine quality. Roots should be carefully washed, scraped and chopped into small pieces to assure uniform drying."
Then he says to store the in a dark glass or earthenware jar, They lose potency in six months.
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However were I to do so I would cut them and hang them upside down in the house wherever fine herbs are hung. ;D
This is how my family has always dried herbs and it works fantastically. :)
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Michael,
I believe that back through the ages man has instinctively known what was best to heal his ills.
I heard a story a number of years ago about a Vaidya (Ayurvedic doctor) who was well known to be an exceptional herbalist. He was visiting America and happened to be walking by the American Cancer society headquarters, wherever that is. As he passed the building he noticed some weeds growing by the building, so he examined them and said that these are potent herbs for healing or curing cancer. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the story, but I do believe that like animals in the forest there is an ability innate within us to self heal using things that are available around us. That ability lies dormant because we chose to let it. Nobody is preventing us from developing it. Big pharma ain't the problem... it's us.
That theory supports those of us who have somehow managed to find the diet that is working and making sense for us.
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I thought about spices in the past too, but they are extremely expensive on a per .lb basis, so to eat 100g would not be economical. Plus, even fresh they aren't the kind of foods I'd want to eat 100g of. Marrow and tripe contain a lot of calcium.
Halibut, shellfish, tuna and smelt contain magnesium. Oysters and smelt also contain calcium.
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I thought about spices in the past too, but they are extremely expensive on a per .lb basis, so to eat 100g would not be economical. Plus, even fresh they aren't the kind of foods I'd want to eat 100g of. Marrow and tripe contain a lot of calcium.
Halibut, shellfish, tuna and smelt contain magnesium. Oysters and smelt also contain calcium.
PP,
It may not be necessary to eat such large quantities of the herbs as you suggest. Volume does not equal effectiveness. Regular consumption will have a gradual and gentler effect with less toxic overload.
One issue with herbs and spices is that they lose punch with age, so what you buy in a grocery store is probably DOA and expensive. I find health food stores have fresher when in bulk and it can be better quality, and cheaper in bulk because most people are too lazy to use the bulk bins. It depends on the store. Usually small is more expensive.
The best is to grow your own.
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Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions guys.
I agree that herbs can work out astronomically expensive when purchased in small quantities from health shops and similar establishments. Fortunately, I have found an affordable supplier of bulk organic dried herbs which would make it a financially viable proposition. Of course, this would only be necessary until I was in a position to grow and dry my own in bulk. For producing sufficient quantities of reliable quality, I think commercial dehydrators are the only realistic method.
As far as quantity goes, I'd think 50g per day would be sufficient on the basis of the nutritional analysis I stated earlier and, particularly, when all the animal foods eaten are considered also. I think this quantity is easily achievable. Of course, eaten fresh would be preferable for many reasons but the Ca/Mg content dwindles significantly which would then require substantial volumes of herbs to be eaten. I have no intention of becoming a herbivore!! :)
Phil, does marrow contain a substantial proportion of Ca? Do you have any analysis figures or studies indicating this as I've been unable to find anything? I'm not sure if the fish you mentioned, or meat as previously mentioned, contains sufficient quantities. Perhaps, ordinarily, these foods would be sufficient for others following RPD but I suspect my body requires larger amounts of these critical minerals due to historical problems with heavy metal poisoning, malabsorption etc. I suspect my teeth wouldn't be suffering after 10 yrs eating this way were this not the case. I also suspect, historically, foods no longer ordinarily consumed would've been the providers of these important minerals such as some of the more obscure animal parts, fish/seafood, blood, insects etc.
I'm trying to cover all the nutritional bases for repairing my teeth and avoiding future bone/teeth issues. Vit A, D3, K1, MkIV K2 etc are simple enough. It's the macro minerals I seem to struggle with!
I return to the dentist chair in a couple of days following my infection/antibiotic episode. It will be to discuss tooth extraction OR reworking of the problematic old root canal to try to save the (dead) tooth. I'm leaning towards extraction despite my existing lack of teeth in those quarters of my mouth.
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Yes Al, I don't think I've ever eaten 100 g of potent herbs at one sitting. What I meant was, when all foods are examined at equal 100 g servings, herbs come out at the top of the rankings. But when you consider how much of each food that people actually consume, herbs drop way down. So when I first saw the nutritiondata numbers I thought herbs would be a good nutrient source, then I realized that they were using a 100 g serving. Reduce it to a handful of leaves in a salad or tea, like most folks do, and the nutrient contribution drops substantially. They are nutrient dense, though.
However, Michael has a bulk source, which I don't recall seeing before. Interesting. If I had that, I might see which herbs are the most palatable and add them to my salads. Are you going to eat any of them fresh Michael? Will 50 g of dried herbs be palatable? Will you crumble them into your meats or what?
Phil, does marrow contain a substantial proportion of Ca?
I don't know how much because no one online has accurate figures. I know there's likely some, so I don't trust Nutritiondata's 0% figure.
I'm not sure if the fish you mentioned, or meat as previously mentioned, contains sufficient quantities.
I suspect that most people who eat a raw Paleo diet don't need the 1000 mg USRDA Daily Value because they aren't eating lots of calcium binding foods like wheat and are getting more vitamins A, D3, K2 and zinc that help with calcium absorption than most people. However, if you have poor absorption, then you may not be getting enough calcium and other minerals for your needs. The downside of large intakes in an environment of poor absorption is there is the possibility of excess free serum calcium, which might increase risk of developing calcifications in various parts of the body. So the bioavailability of nutrient sources is important, as are other nutrients that work synergistically with calcium to improve its bioavailability.
Perhaps, ordinarily, these foods would be sufficient for others following RPD but I suspect my body requires larger amounts of these critical minerals due to historical problems with heavy metal poisoning, malabsorption etc. I suspect my teeth wouldn't be suffering after 10 yrs eating this way were this not the case. I also suspect, historically, foods no longer ordinarily consumed would've been the providers of these important minerals such as some of the more obscure animal parts, fish/seafood, blood, insects etc.
It does sound like malabsorption may be involved. Suboptimal gut flora is a apparently a common contributing factor, though of course I can't know for sure and I'm not offering any diagnosis or prescription.
I return to the dentist chair in a couple of days following my infection/antibiotic episode. It will be to discuss tooth extraction OR reworking of the problematic old root canal to try to save the (dead) tooth. I'm leaning towards extraction despite my existing lack of teeth in those quarters of my mouth.
Are you aware that when teeth are extracted it tends to accelerate the bone loss of the jaw in that area? I think that's one reason why dentists go to lengths of fillings, root canals, and such to avoid having to pull teeth.
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It does sound like malabsorption may be involved. Suboptimal gut flora is a apparently a common contributing factor, though of course I can't know for sure and I'm not offering any diagnosis or prescription.
Are you aware that when teeth are extracted it tends to accelerate the bone loss of the jaw in that area? I think that's one reason why dentists go to lengths of fillings, root canals, and such to avoid having to pull teeth.
Another thing that I discovered is that I had an on/off teeth discomfort for a long time and kept putting off getting it looked at. Eventually (my theory anyways) is that in the meantime the jaw basically rotted and so there was no underlying jawbone left subsequently that a (whatever you call the implanted teeth) screw and false tooth could be added.
Mind you I was a vege at the time so no way of knowing if that was a contributing factor.
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Eventually (my theory anyways) is that in the meantime the jaw basically rotted and so there was no underlying jawbone left subsequently that a (whatever you call the implanted teeth) screw and false tooth could be added.
Thanks for the (rather scary!) warning al.
Having now seen my dentist, I can update that he (thankfully) suggested monitoring the situation for now following the success of the antibiotics. With luck, and with the great impact of either treatment in mind, I may be able to avoid either treatment. I'm due to go back in 3 months time and will be taking every possible precaution in the meantime.
However, Michael has a bulk source, which I don't recall seeing before. Interesting. If I had that, I might see which herbs are the most palatable and add them to my salads. Are you going to eat any of them fresh Michael? Will 50 g of dried herbs be palatable? Will you crumble them into your meats or what?
My bulk source is, unfortunately, only for dried herbs. Sorry for any confusion! It would be my hope to eventually grow my own in bulk to dry them myself at low temperature. So, yes, I will be using them dried for these purposes (I do eat fresh coriander/parsley too). Recently, I've been eating one meal a day only consisting of thinly sliced meats dehydrated for an hour and served with a homemade sauce (raw butter and egg yolk). I've started adding substantial quantities of dried herbs to this sauce over the last few days and, must say, it's absolutely delicious!! :) 50g of dried herbs is, indeed, quite a large quantity in reality so I may have to consider splitting this over two meals to make such quantities palatable.
The downside of large intakes in an environment of poor absorption is there is the possibility of excess free serum calcium, which might increase risk of developing calcifications in various parts of the body. So the bioavailability of nutrient sources is important, as are other nutrients that work synergistically with calcium to improve its bioavailability.
Hmm, good points Phil. Thanks for raising those. It wasn't a thought I had considered. I will certainly need to be monitoring the situation very closely I feel.
Are you aware that when teeth are extracted it tends to accelerate the bone loss of the jaw in that area? I think that's one reason why dentists go to lengths of fillings, root canals, and such to avoid having to pull teeth.
I wasn't actually aware of this so many thanks for the warning! I was glad to learn this BEFORE my dentist appointment and, therefore, even more grateful that he suggested postponing any immediate treatment with a view to monitoring the effected area.
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served with a homemade sauce (raw butter and egg yolk). I've started adding substantial quantities of dried herbs to this sauce over the last few days and, must say, it's absolutely delicious!! :)
I'm interested in your sauce described here. Do you just melt the butter and add raw egg yolk and then some herbs/spices? Can you give any additional info on this? It sounds nice, rich, and tasty.
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Hi infinitenexus,
Yes, it's very basic and simple. But, as you suggest, it is absolutely delicious! :) I've been eating one meal a day for the last few weeks consisting of thinly sliced fatty beef dehydrated for an hour and served with this sauce as a dip. To make the sauce, I basically warm the butter in my dehydrator at low temperature (<105 deg) for 5 mins, add 3 or 4 egg yolks to the soft (not liquid) butter and beat with a fork for a few mins until it takes on the consistency of a thick sauce. I then add the herbs and mix in thoroughly. Of course, this is just the basic sauce. One could add a variety of other herbs/spices for variety. I also sometimes add some coconut oil too.
The butter I'm using is raw, grass-fed jersey butter which has been made with celtic sea salt but I'm sure it'd work equally well with an unsalted butter if this was your preference.
Enjoy! :)
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I'm glad this thread has still enjoyed some activity, mainly because I'm trying to harmonise with my deteriorating teeth.
First of all, I've been grinding dried bones of venison, which is very easy - the only caveat is that this practice seems to make my teeth feel over-hard/brittle and I've easily chipped one of the front teeth ever so slightly from a piece of silt not washed off my salad. It seems to me that bone meal delivers a disproportionate amount of calcium to magnesium, which I blame for the brittle feeling. On this basis, I'm not sure I recommend bone meal, although strangely enough, I always found gelatinous bone broths to not deliver unbalanced minerals along with the gelatin, so maybe the range of minerals dissolved in the water was better available. This would be my conclusion on broth vs meal, although sadly, the excitotoxins (free glutamates from hours of cooking) in broth trash my (overexcitable) neurons. Another vector for healing my gnashers eliminated (story of my healing path!).
Silica from horsetail and oatstraw, combined with "nourishing infusions" of nettle definitely started to turn the tide for me and some of the lesions on my teeth started to "close in" (craters becoming only lines) pretty quickly. The only caveat is that these herbs are diuretics and despite what Susun Weed says, I was pissing out potassium because I had the cracked lips to prove it. Another vector for healing the teeth quashed. However, you've got me thinking on the coriander/cilantro tip now and I'm sure an infusion made from 100g coriander per day would be mineralising. Coriander is a chelator of heavy metals too, so maybe it would be an extra bonus or downfall. Dried coriander leaves costs me £10 per kilo...
Do you know any negative effects of coriander? If not, this could be combined with a good source of silica for best effect.
The next thing I've dabbled with was silica G5 (so-called organic liquid silica), which yielded amazing results initially - tooth sensitivity disappeared sharpish in a couple of soft spots, which was profound at the time. However, there seemed to be a honeymoon period and then things went the other way. I did a half-arsed VCO oil pull, which must have left something dodgy in my mouth (I was biking for an early train) and since then, the gums around varying teeth have been bleeding, painful, infected etc. My teeth feel like a terrible mess recently and I don't feel I can get on with other things until I can somehow strengthen them...
Michael, where do you buy raw butter from - red23? Or did you find their source for Jersey butter?
One other thing I'm just procuring from the US is a vitamin D lamp, mainly for the winter, so I can avoid having to dose supplements for my body weight etc. I avoid fish oil now (F-CLO), plus I don't think the D3 supplements work for me (or maybe I'm overdosing on them).
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Also, you can melt butter in the dehydrator until the white solids sink to the bottom and you can pour the oil off to separate out the allergenic buttermilk proteins. I call this low temp ghee...not quite Green Pasture stylee but almost!
Another thing is that meat is a good source of Ca/Mg...Maybe up that, if your metabolism can handle it...