Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on August 14, 2010, 08:38:56 pm
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I haven't explored this topic yet.
What I do know is there are some veggies I can eat raw.
And that there are some veggies that can only be eaten when cooked.
So for those vegetables that can only be eaten cooked. Are they bad for your health?
Any research, opinions welcome.
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Those vegetables that cannot be eaten raw invariably contain high levels of antinutrients which are partly what makes them unpalatable. I've heard of people who've encountered serious health-problems from eating 100% raw-potato diets for example.
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I eat cooked only what can be eaten raw (though in honesty, I rarely ever eat a vegetable that is cooked at all).
My question is this: Why cook veggies at all?
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My question is this: Why cook veggies at all?
Besides the usual anti-nutrient matter such as oxalates etc, isn't part of the reason vegetables are cooked due to the process breaking down the cellulose walls which are indigestible to humans? As I vaguely recall, we lack the cellulase enzyme meaning most vegetables consumed raw seemingly just pass on through with little of the vitamins and minerals being available. WAPF, I think, have some good points on this recommending eating vegetables such as broccoli cooked and served with fats to help the absorption of the newly available minerals. Perhaps the fact that such dishes taste delicious compared to the wholly unappetising thought of munching raw broccoli is testament to such wisdom.
However, better does not necessarily mean good and we're probably better off without them at all!
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Cooking should only be used to expand one's diet in case of lack of other foods.
For example,if you haven't eaten in a while and can't find animal foods or plant matter that can be eaten raw,then as a last resort you can cook up some potatoes,broccoli...etc.This would keep you alive until you find some better suited foods.
How bad are cooked potatoes,broccoli,cauliflower...etc?I don't know.But I remember I used to love baked potatoes with butter ;)
Tyler's comment addressed the harm in raw potatoes but that doesn't mean cooked potatoes would be as bad.Maybe someone else has more details on this?
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The point is that cooking produces heat-created toxins so the benefit of the extra nutrients derived from cooking some plant foods would be negated.
Besides, I have derived plenty of nourishment in the past from raw seaweed, raw samphire, raw carrots, raw radishes and similiar vegetables. As long as I don't rely on them as 100% of my diet, I'm fine.
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Found this in Aajonus' book, page 228 of We Want to Live:
ANGINA PECTORIS is the cramping of muscles in or around the
heart. Most always, the cramps are a natural process by which the body
tries to increase circulation and remove toxins and hardened fat from
muscles and arteries. A lack of enzyme-mutations for digesting,
assimilating and utilizing cooked green foods and mostly vegetable oils
are responsible for most hardening of the arteries that causes heart
muscle spasms. Avoiding cooked green foods and vegetable oils stops
the accumulations.
Eating raw green foods (salads) with a fat-free dressing as the last
meal of the day helps remove the resins and residues that cause this
type of hardening of the arteries.
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...Perhaps the fact that such dishes taste delicious compared to the wholly unappetising thought of munching raw broccoli is testament to such wisdom...
Matter of taste (pardon the pun). I much prefer raw broccoli to cooked (even lightly steamed).
I once had a discussion with a raw vegan who said that steak sauce sales were a testament to the fact that meat doesn't taste good alone (and thus is not natural for humans to eat). I countered that salad dressing sales should thus be viewed as a testament to the unhealthiness of veggies, not to mention the use of salt & sugar on raw fruit.
He thus concluded that living on sunshine and fresh air was the way of humans. I wished him all the luck with such an approach, then ate salad & sashimi....
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Of course common steak has no flavor,its cooked ;) Raw beef has a really good flavor. Why do you think "Steak Tartare" or "Carpaccio" are delicacies?
Ever hear of salad as a delicacy? No......it's just a damn appetizer at best.
Now go back and tell that Breatharian to go eat some real food(raw meat)!
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Matter of taste (pardon the pun). I much prefer raw broccoli to cooked (even lightly steamed).
I once had a discussion with a raw vegan who said that steak sauce sales were a testament to the fact that meat doesn't taste good alone (and thus is not natural for humans to eat). I countered that salad dressing sales should thus be viewed as a testament to the unhealthiness of veggies, not to mention the use of salt & sugar on raw fruit.
He thus concluded that living on sunshine and fresh air was the way of humans. I wished him all the luck with such an approach, then ate salad & sashimi....
Good luck with the raw broccoli SD! I suppose you're right and it's really just a matter of taste which is dependent on many factors.
Same for the meat and salad too I guess. To be honest, I used to use the same argument as your vegan friend in my 8 years of vegetarianism. After 10 years of raw meats I'm not sure I've yet acquired a taste for raw meat alone and still find myself using celtic salt, pepper, garlic, herbs etc. I have been reducing this recently so live in hope.
Of course, it's a ridiculous and laughable notion but, if I'm honest again, I do love the idea of living on sunshine and fresh air myself. I once had high hopes for the supposed achievements of Hira Ratan Manek and his 411 day sungazing fast!
The point is that cooking produces heat-created toxins so the benefit of the extra nutrients derived from cooking some plant foods would be negated.
Besides, I have derived plenty of nourishment in the past from raw seaweed, raw samphire, raw carrots, raw radishes and similiar vegetables. As long as I don't rely on them as 100% of my diet, I'm fine.
With much of the heat-created toxins revolving around protein and carbohydrate, Tyler, and without disputing your claim - what are the heat-created toxins from plant foods such as broccoli, greens, carrots etc? Are they really that damaging? Also, do you have information to debunk the cellulose wall problem with regard to eating the raw carrots, seaweed etc?
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Sorry to hear about your taste problems Michael.
I suggest you just stop all condiments completely.
Eat when hungry.
I've adjusted very well and even dream about raw meats I havent had in a long while.
I don't miss condiments at all.
I had a good sized salad in a meeting, tasted pretty good. I guess salads taste good if I just eat them once a month.
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Thanks gs. I'm not sure it's a problem. At least, my taste buds don't think so!! ;)
But, yes I do recognise that it's probably not ideal and am reducing my reliance on condiments day by day.
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Interesting thread,
SD I liked the discussion with your friend re steak sauce and salad sauce. LOL
Michael,
My girlfriend and I are doing the HRM sungazing bit. We are past the 45 minutes back to 15 minutes since around April. I like the bare earth walking although I don't have the time to do it. My GF's eyes were vastly improved at her checkout last February and mine have improved also. Also we eat quite a bit less. However I am not really holding out hope of becoming inediate. I met HRM in Toronto. He is more controversial that AV.
Tyler,
Here is an excerpt from a book called "The Ayurvedic Cookbook" by Amadea Morningstar (nutritionist) and Urmila Desai;
"Potatoes are from a group of plants called nightshades including tomato, white potato, eggplant, peppers and tobacco. They concentrate poisonous alkaloids in various parts of their anatomy, particularly their leaves. This is why chewing on a potato or tomato leave is never recommended. When the potato was first discovered in North America and sent back to Queen Elizabeth the first for her consumption, her chef unfortunately erred and served her the leaf and stem and threw out the root! Elizabeth was unimpressed."
If the potato has a green shade on it's skin, chuck it or at the least generously cut out that section as it is poisonous. The toxic alkaloids solanine and chaconine accumulate close to the surface. Do not let them sit in a light place or a very cold or very warm place. Cool dark is best.
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With much of the heat-created toxins revolving around protein and carbohydrate, Tyler, and without disputing your claim - what are the heat-created toxins from plant foods such as broccoli, greens, carrots etc? Are they really that damaging? Also, do you have information to debunk the cellulose wall problem with regard to eating the raw carrots, seaweed etc?
Plant foods produce much the same sort of heat-created toxins as when cooking animal foods(ie advanced glycation end products/AGEs and so on. No HCAs I think(heterocyclic amines; as those are only produced when cooking meats).
The difference is that fewer heat-created toxins are produced when cooking plant foods as opposed to cooking animal foods. But they are still effective. And there is the question of nutrient-loss from cooking:-
http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing
Vitamin C, for example, is very easily destroyed by heat. I have no exact figures that I can think of right now re cellulose-walls as food-science is so new, but I suspect that any benefits from increased nutrients from breaking down the cell-walls are counteracted by the loss of nutrients caused by cooking(I'll have to do research on this but I suspect that nutrient-loss from plant foods from cooking is much greater than with animal foods as food-scientists routinely recommend only steaming or lightly boiling plant foods in order to get the best value from them re nutrients) . When one adds in the fact that heat-created toxins are added by cooking, one finds that there is a net disadvantage to cooking plant foods.
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Vitamin C, for example, is very easily destroyed by heat. I have no exact figures that I can think of right now re cellulose-walls as food-science is so new,
Amla or Indian gooseberry is an exception to that. The vitamin c in it does not break down and thus retains it's potency even when cooked or stored.
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Yeah, I got a laugh out of it, too.
I think humans can live on much more sunshine & fresh air than we do (and need less food than we eat), but there's nothing like a big salad, a piece of fruit, and a slab of meat. YUM!
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I am interested to know this as well, though I prefer to avoid all vegetables possible and have always hated them, and hated them worse when steamed. However, surprisingly there is one vegetable that I do actually really enjoy the taste of, and that is pure water grown mung bean sprouts. I actually even like to eat them best steamed and soaked in soy sauce, however as that isn't exactly paleo, then I've been avoiding that by eating them raw when we have them, but I am curious to know exactly how good is it for you to eat bean sprouts, and how much worse it is to eat them steamed, and how much even worse it is to eat them steamed and soaked in soy sauce..
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I would avoid beans as they're not palaeo, anyway, even sprouted.
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I am interested to know this as well, though I prefer to avoid all vegetables possible and have always hated them, and hated them worse when steamed. However, surprisingly there is one vegetable that I do actually really enjoy the taste of, and that is pure water grown mung bean sprouts. I actually even like to eat them best steamed and soaked in soy sauce, however as that isn't exactly paleo, then I've been avoiding that by eating them raw when we have them, but I am curious to know exactly how good is it for you to eat bean sprouts, and how much worse it is to eat them steamed, and how much even worse it is to eat them steamed and soaked in soy sauce..
From a strictly RPD point of view I would probably be inclined to avoid them. However if you like them, I would say go for it. Problems with them would be associated with gas and bloating. The soy sauce although tasty might be problematic in the long run due to the heavy salting and the ingredient soy in it, which has been covered in this forum recently.
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I don't eat beans (aside from the rare occasion when I'll have a taste of the raw hummus I make for my wife), but I do eat bean sprouts in salads sometimes.
Again, their "paleo-ness" depends largely upon how you define paleo, and there is no universally accepted definition (though there are some general guidelines).
Is it natural? Sure. Did cavemen eat bean sprouts? Probably not, but who knows.
But soy sauce? Absolutely not. But is soy sauce tasty? Sure. If you must eat soy sauce, try to do so sparingly (only as a treat) there are several brands that offer a wheat-free, low-sodium version. I'd definitely choose that (and do, when they urge strikes me for some soy sauce on my sashimi or tataki).
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The only beans I ever liked were refried beans, which, if I'm not mistaken, are swimming in lard? Which is probably why I liked them so much, more for the lard fat than the actual bean. Oh man, and I used to make fried burritos when I lived with my mom who had a frier, mixing a whole bunch of cheese in with some refried beans wrapped up in a flour tortilla and fry it up, yummy.
uhm, but yeah, as for the bean sprouts, i can easily eat them raw, I usually just bring a bag of them up to my room and munch on them like SADers munch on chips. I just preferred them steamed and swimming in soy sauce, though I know soy is bad with the phytoestrogen or whatever in it, but I read somewhere that it was eliminated when soy is traditionally fermented into soy sauce. Not that the soy sauce I have is probably even close, since I've got that commercial kikkoman stuff, and the salt in it is what makes it so good. >~>;
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The only beans I ever liked were refried beans, which, if I'm not mistaken, are swimming in lard? Which is probably why I liked them so much, more for the lard fat than the actual bean. Oh man, and I used to make fried burritos when I lived with my mom who had a frier, mixing a whole bunch of cheese in with some refried beans wrapped up in a flour tortilla and fry it up, yummy.
uhm, but yeah, as for the bean sprouts, i can easily eat them raw, I usually just bring a bag of them up to my room and munch on them like SADers munch on chips. I just preferred them steamed and swimming in soy sauce, though I know soy is bad with the phytoestrogen or whatever in it, but I read somewhere that it was eliminated when soy is traditionally fermented into soy sauce. Not that the soy sauce I have is probably even close, since I've got that commercial kikkoman stuff, and the salt in it is what makes it so good. >~>;
LOL Reminds me of the song from long ago about the health food, vegetarian, bean sproutin, tofu eatin guy who would wait for everyone to go to bed and then he would sneak down to the kitchen dig to the back of the fridge and have a Fruit Loops, Cherry Blossum, Twinkies etc. fest, and wash it down with Doctor Pepper. ;D
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LOL Reminds me of the song from long ago about the health food, vegetarian, bean sproutin, tofu eatin guy who would wait for everyone to go to bed and then he would sneak down to the kitchen dig to the back of the fridge and have a Fruit Loops, Cherry Blossum, Twinkies etc. fest, and wash it down with Doctor Pepper. ;D
LOL, omigosh I think I remember that song.. was it junk food junkie?
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Plant foods produce much the same sort of heat-created toxins as when cooking animal foods(ie advanced glycation end products/AGEs and so on. No HCAs I think(heterocyclic amines; as those are only produced when cooking meats).
Could you be a little more specific Tyler as I think it's important for us all to understand exactly what the impact is on this issue. I know you've researched the effects of cooking to a great extent so was hoping for some detailed information. I'm not so sure AGEs are an issue where cooked vegetables are concerned as, I thought, these were formed only by the heating of fats and sugars (neither of which are present in vegetables to any great extent).
And there is the question of nutrient-loss from cooking
But, with the issue of being unable to break down the cellulose wall, I would suspect the nutrients available even after this loss exceed those available without breaking down the cellulose wall? I look forward to reading your findings on your further research.
Of course, I'm not suggesting or recommending eating cooked plant foods and certainly don't eat them myself. But, I do wonder for those that DO eat them - are they more beneficial/less harmful cooked?
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I previously pointed out a nutrition-loss chart which showed rather massive losses of certain vital vitamins etc. after cooking. Even the breaking down of the cell-walls would not affect this as the heating-process would also lead to massive nutrient-losses of those same vitamins within those cell-walls, especially after the cell-walls got broken up.
Also as I explained before, AGEs are formed either via oxidation of fats via cooking or by sugars altering proteins via cooking. Plant foods contain proteins. It is known that AGEs are formed in smaller amounts in plants by comparison to animal foods, and that may be because some vegetables(specifically the green leafy kind not the rest) have less amounts of sugars in them. ON the other hand, fruits would be much higher in AGEs but are so rarely cooked that they aren't an issue.
So we have:- substantial losses of key vitamins via cooking; loss of enzymes re digestion; addition of some heat-created toxins. With raw plants, we have a reduction in the size of nutrients due to some being locked up in the cell-walls; enzymes for digestion and no heat-created toxins at all.
Having had personal experiences of cooked vegan diets and raw vegan diets, and having come across others' prior raw vegan experiences, I can safely state that a` raw vegan lifestyle is far healthier and produces some rather good, initial results, whereas a cooked vegan diet for me was merely "less worse" than eating cooked animal foods.
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Here's an excerpt:-
"The greatest of contributors by far of AGEs/ALEs by food (Table II) seem to be dairy products130 (Figure 1), bread, and meat, not only because they are rich in these substances but also as these foods constitute the bulk of modern food, especially in the western world. Also, plants contribute to accumulation of AGEs/ALEs in the body, especially fruits, which contain larger amounts of fructose, which is highly reactive with proteins. However, consumption of carbohydrates seem mainly, or only, to be of considerable risk when consumed as industrially concentrated products, refined sugar, and high-fructose corn syrup."
taken from:-
http://pen.sagepub.com/content/31/5/430.full
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i would never eat cooked vegan food. i drink fresh squeezed juice every day though, because i can't consume significant amounts of things like carrots raw - too much chewing, and too much fiber to have in the stomach.
if you can't process the fiber - juice.
if its loaded with poisons / anti-nutrients - then why bother with it in the first place ? is there any lack of food that isn't ?
some vegan foods like nuts should be soaked before consuming. others like seeds should be sprouted.
cooking vegan food is retarded though, sorry.
as for the science - i would be skeptical of it - nutrition science always ends up proven wrong. just use common sense. cooked food is not natural.
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I still can't understand how people can eat things like raw broccoli etc.
Some cooked vegetables taste good but they always make me tired and sluggish. I get bloatings from all kinds of cabbage. Feels like sh.t. No food. Hmm, so much vegetable food everywhere. It must be a result of animal food shortage and overpopulation, means poverty.
The more poverty the more cabbage.
I think the most important reason why so many vegans drink vegetable juices (from their beloved blenders) is demineralization from eating too much fruit.
Löwenherz
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I seem to do MUCH better with cooked veggies and tubers than raw ones, they really really help my digestion. I eat them away from my meat though and after my meat and at night, otherwise I have problems with them mixing badly and causing digestive problems. Raw veggies don't agree with me that wonderfully.
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I still can't understand how people can eat things like raw broccoli etc.
Some cooked vegetables taste good but they always make me tired and sluggish. I get bloatings from all kinds of cabbage. Feels like sh.t. No food. Hmm, so much vegetable food everywhere. It must be a result of animal food shortage and overpopulation, means poverty.
The more poverty the more cabbage.
calorie for calorie raw vegetable juice is much more expensive than typical food in affluent countries like USA. poverty = rice, beans, corn, wheat and potatoes. on the other hand carrots, cabbage, tomatoes, cucumbers etc. have nothing to do with poverty.
from their beloved blenders
no, blenders are for smoothies. juice comes from juicers. i use this one:
http://www.discountjuicers.com/greenstarelite.html
some people make "juice" in blenders but it's not real juice. releasing quality juice requires high pressure.
you should try some fresh squeezed raw vegetable juice - it tastes good and it will make you feel good too. you just have to know which vegetables to combine to get good taste. if you juice cabbage by itself you won't be able to drink it :)
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I seem to do MUCH better with cooked veggies and tubers than raw ones, they really really help my digestion. I eat them away from my meat though and after my meat and at night, otherwise I have problems with them mixing badly and causing digestive problems. Raw veggies don't agree with me that wonderfully.
if you drink juice you don't need to digest it at all - the nutrients go straight into your blood.
also if you have problems with digestion you might want to consider taking some probiotics.
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you should try some fresh squeezed raw vegetable juice - it tastes good and it will make you feel good too. you just have to know which vegetables to combine to get good taste. if you juice cabbage by itself you won't be able to drink it :)
No thanks. I'm not interested in concentrated sugar from juiced fruits and concrentrated plant antinutrients from juiced vegetables. I have learned my lessons during my vegan delirium in the late '90s.
Smoothies or juices? It's all the same nonsense invented by some confused gurus.
Löwenherz
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Besides the usual anti-nutrient matter such as oxalates etc, isn't part of the reason vegetables are cooked due to the process breaking down the cellulose walls which are indigestible to humans? As I vaguely recall, we lack the cellulase enzyme meaning most vegetables consumed raw seemingly just pass on through with little of the vitamins and minerals being available. WAPF, I think, have some good points on this recommending eating vegetables such as broccoli cooked and served with fats to help the absorption of the newly available minerals. Perhaps the fact that such dishes taste delicious compared to the wholly unappetising thought of munching raw broccoli is testament to such wisdom.
However, better does not necessarily mean good and we're probably better off without them at all!
Yeah if they are not appealing raw then you don't need them, though some may have medicinal use.
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Some cooked vegetables taste good but they always make me tired and sluggish. I get bloatings from all kinds of cabbage. Feels like sh.t. No food. Hmm, so much vegetable food everywhere. It must be a result of animal food shortage and overpopulation, means poverty.
And these foods are recommended for consumption by governments, such as the U.S. Federal Government. They want people to be poor and malnourished, such a population is easier to control.
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I seem to do MUCH better with cooked veggies and tubers than raw ones, they really really help my digestion. I eat them away from my meat though and after my meat and at night, otherwise I have problems with them mixing badly and causing digestive problems. Raw veggies don't agree with me that wonderfully.
This is my experience re digestion. But even cooked veggies I find unappetizing and so I instinctively avoid them.
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calorie for calorie raw vegetable juice is much more expensive than typical food in affluent countries like USA. poverty = rice, beans, corn, wheat and potatoes. on the other hand carrots, cabbage, tomatoes, cucumbers etc. have nothing to do with poverty.
Sure they do, just not on the same level as the grains. They are more akin to near-poverty.
you should try some fresh squeezed raw vegetable juice - it tastes good and it will make you feel good too. you just have to know which vegetables to combine to get good taste. if you juice cabbage by itself you won't be able to drink it :)
Is there any single vegetable that is good juiced, all by itself?
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Is there any single vegetable that is good juiced, all by itself?
We juice kamote tops leaves and it is used to quickly add iron to the body and alkalize you at the same time.
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2010/12/02/alkalize-quickly-how-to-make-raw-kamote-tops-juice-sweet-potato-tops/
used to cure dengue fever too.
We also juice ampalaya leaves for cough medicine for the cooked food eaters.
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We juice kamote tops leaves and it is used to quickly add iron to the body and alkalize you at the same time.
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2010/12/02/alkalize-quickly-how-to-make-raw-kamote-tops-juice-sweet-potato-tops/
used to cure dengue fever too.
We also juice ampalaya leaves for cough medicine for the cooked food eaters.
Thanks gs, but I was referring to taste. The poster mentioned that you have to have the right blend of vegetables to get a palatable juice drink. But I avoid blending my foods, I prefer to mono-eat, so I was wondering if there is a single vegetable that would be palatable juiced. For my own taste, the answer is probably no. I wouldn't find tomato, carrot, spinach or any other vegetable I can think of appetizing when juiced.
If you cannot mono-eat something then it isn't instinctively paleo.
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kamote tops juice tastes good when your body needs it.
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kamote tops juice tastes good when your body needs it.
I am sure they do! Even though I have a strong dislike for vegetables, I imagine that if I become sick or extremely deficient in some nutrient I might even crave certain vegetables/vegetation.
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Is there any single vegetable that is good juiced, all by itself?
carrot juice by itself tastes pretty good, but is high in sugar, and also high in beta carotene. in other words if you have an entire meal of nothing but carrot juice you will certainly have too much sugar. too much carrot juice overtime you might run into problems with beta carotene too, but i don't know if this can happen from one meal.
tomato or cucumber juice are probably ok but i never juice them because they are so easy and delicious to simply eat. i do use cucumbers instead of water in a blender sometimes. for example instead of blending protein powder with water i can blend it with a bunch of cucumbers.
sorry, guess i am not much help. i am basically the opposite of a mono eater. i will take juice of 5 different things, pour it into a blender, add a salad mix and blend it, then add 4 different protein supplements and two superfood mix powders with 30 and 60 ingredients each, blend and drink it all :)
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carrot juice by itself tastes pretty good, but is high in sugar, and also high in beta carotene. in other words if you have an entire meal of nothing but carrot juice you will certainly have too much sugar. too much carrot juice overtime you might run into problems with beta carotene too, but i don't know if this can happen from one meal.
tomato or cucumber juice are probably ok but i never juice them because they are so easy and delicious to simply eat. i do use cucumbers instead of water in a blender sometimes. for example instead of blending protein powder with water i can blend it with a bunch of cucumbers.
sorry, guess i am not much help. i am basically the opposite of a mono eater. i will take juice of 5 different things, pour it into a blender, add a salad mix and blend it, then add 4 different protein supplements and two superfood mix powders with 30 and 60 ingredients each, blend and drink it all :)
Sounds like a blast. Party in the kitchen!
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if you drink juice you don't need to digest it at all - the nutrients go straight into your blood.
I'm not so sure that beta-carotene being passed directly into my blood is good. What is that, for someone with their stomach surgically removed? I'd like to think my body makes it into vitamin A first, and my bloodstream isn't mostly tasty carrot juice at any time. My pancreas might not like that. I doubt juicing the carrot is all it needs to convert it into the vitamin anyway.
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I'm not so sure that beta-carotene being passed directly into my blood is good. What is that, for someone with their stomach surgically removed? I'd like to think my body makes it into vitamin A first, and my bloodstream isn't mostly tasty carrot juice at any time. My pancreas might not like that. I doubt juicing the carrot is all it needs to convert it into the vitamin anyway.
that's not the worst i am doing. i also eat pollen. when they did studies not only can a whole pollen grain pass into your blood completely undigested but it can also pass through your blood brain barrier into your brain ! they fed pollen to some animals then cracked their heads open and found whole pollen grains in there.
i eat that stuff out of a pound bottle :)
supposedly pollen has more nutrients in it than any other single natural food. of course i would hope that my green superfood powders have more ( since they cost more ) but that's because they are made from multiple foods. the taste of course is completely different between pollen and the green stuff. pollen is very bland and neutral - once you blend it with something it's like its not even there.
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Eating pollen plain makes me sick. I'm ok when I soak it first in raw grassfed milk or cream.
that's not the worst i am doing. i also eat pollen. when they did studies not only can a whole pollen grain pass into your blood completely undigested but it can also pass through your blood brain barrier into your brain ! they fed pollen to some animals then cracked their heads open and found whole pollen grains in there.
i eat that stuff out of a pound bottle :)
supposedly pollen has more nutrients in it than any other single natural food. of course i would hope that my green superfood powders have more ( since they cost more ) but that's because they are made from multiple foods. the taste of course is completely different between pollen and the green stuff. pollen is very bland and neutral - once you blend it with something it's like its not even there.
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bee pollen, bland a neutral?!?!
I loooooove the taste of bee pollen, it is quite an addicting taste if you ask me, and there was this super enriched honey I bought that was a mixture of raw honey, bee pollen, propolis, and royal jelly, and to me it tasted just like caramel.. which, when eating straight bee pollen tasted almost the same, just not as sweet.
When I had bee pollen though, I would eat it and felt like I couldn't stop because the taste was addicting to me. Although I think it might possibly be part of the reason I developed an ulcer, from how acidic the pollen is and how much of it I was eating on top of lots of honey and fruits.. which, when I ate bee pollen again after that, caused terrible burning pain in my stomach. But I don't know, there might have been other factors involved with the ulcer or whatever it was that I got.
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Eating any cooked food makes me feel like sitting around and not doing anything... until I get it out of my system and then my energy returns.
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Eating any cooked food makes me feel like sitting around and not doing anything... until I get it out of my system and then my energy returns.
Eating cooked meat(though I always get rare-cooked) or eggs(sunnyside up so the yolk is still runny) doesn't make me feel bad like this, or uncooked but pasteurized cheese, but whenever I would end up eating a sandwich or pizza at work, it would make me feel like there was a 20 lb rock in my stomach, weighing me down and making me feel sick and slow, it was painful and I could hardly move because I could feel it stretching out my stomach, I just wanted to puke it back up but I couldn't, and I hated it. but it always tasted soooo good when I was eating it, but the aftereffects were far worse than it was worth.. I don't know how just pure cooked veggies would make me feel though, because I don't really eat veggies, but I would think they might have a somewhat similar effect although not as bad.. the bread was probably the worst of it.
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vegetables are amazing and i think a great source of nutrition, i think you have to grow them yourself, in good soil and grow what does well in the climate and region you are in....i could eat dark green leafy herbs like parsley all day, and while greens like mallow leaf and dandelion really give me energy...i just munch on them til there is nothing but fiber left and spit that out, i think certain veggies need to be warmed, stewed or roasted to be acceptable for digestion, mostly roots and squashes, and think all vegetables including greens are best eaten with butter, some kind of acid like sumac berries, or whatever acidy berries grow around you, or citrus if you are lucky and salt........honestly i think greens are amazing, but realize the reason most people think they are bland or not necessary is because they are eating store bought stuff that is mass produced and nutrient deficient, old and water logged, and because they do no spend enough time with nature and growing their own food
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Vegetables in both a cooked and raw state are beneficial in my opinion. Moderation and flexibility are important. When you cook your vegetables save a small portion to be eaten raw (10-20%), this way you get the best of both worlds.
Cooking improves the digestibility and nutriment value of vegetables. Some nutrients are leached out into cooking liquids, simply drink the liquids to obtain those nutrients; you also get a higher net ingestion of nutrients as heat will open the cellulose cell walls.
Even herbivorous animals must “cook” vegetable matter with multiple stomachs and legions of bacteria and protozoa. You can achieve similar results with heat or fermentation.
Heat created toxins can be significantly reduced by cooking with moist heating methods such as steaming. Water prevents the formation of AGES and the Millard reaction.
Summary:
Cooked vegetables are nutritious, especially if their broth is consumed. Wet-heating is a healthy way to prepare vegetables.
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Rubbish. First of all, cooking in moisture only REDUCES the amounts of AGEs, water does not prevent them from forming at all.
Cooking also destroys the enzymes which hardly helps digestion, along with the bacteria. Cooking also does not only allow nutrients to be leached into the cooking-water - the heat will also progressively destroy the nutrient-levels in the food, as the heat goes higher. Granted, the shredding of the cell-walls will release some nutrients, but the more heat is applied, the more quickly this benefit gets negated and then reversed to become a deficit.
Also, "cooking" is NOT equivalent to animals digesting food in their stomachs. The latter is an entirely different process altogether, requiring enzymes/bacteria etc. which are absent in cooked foods.
Also, intake of raw vegetables appears more effective than cooked vegetables as regards reducing the risk of cancer(eg:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788)
).
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1. According to this article http://www.aging-no-more.com/advanced-glycation-end-products.html (http://www.aging-no-more.com/advanced-glycation-end-products.html)
“The browning of food…is achieved by heating or cooking sugars with proteins in the absence of water, and in this process AGEs are formed.”
“water prevents sugars from binding to protein molecules. By eating fruits and vegetables raw or by cooking them in water or with steam prevents AGEs from forming.”
It seems that steaming or boiling creates an insignificant amount of AGES.
2. Neither dietary nor endogenous enzymes are capable of breaking down cellulose matter; intact cellulose rich foods pass completely undigested through the digestive system. In the case of cellulose rich vegetables, dietary enzymes are a moot point.
Juicing is an alternative; the cell walls are ruptured thoroughly in this case.
3. According to WHFoods:
“Cooking of vegetables and fruits for longer periods of time (10-20 minutes) can result in a loss of over one half the total vitamin C content.”
Vitamin C may be the most heat sensitive vitamin in vegetables and >50% loss is significant. However, a couple cups of raw broccoli have 370% of your daily need for vitamin C, if you lost half you would still have an ample 185%.
Some vegetable nutrients are said to be better absorbed when cooked, carotenes in particular. And of course vegetables are loaded with anti-nutrients that are deactivated by heating.
The nutrient tradeoff for raw vs. cooked veggies is in favor of cooked in my opinion. However, you can always have some of each to get the best of both worlds ;).
4. The study cited above: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788)shows correlation not causation, perhaps people who ate more raw salads also exercised more, ate more nutritiously and avoided unhealthy habits such as smoking. If you take the study at face value it has some bizarre conclusions:
a. Wholegrain products are correlated with a reduced risk of cancer, yup aside from raw veggies, a big serving of cooked wholegrain products is the only other variable which keeps you healthy.
b. Fruit doesn’t correlate with reduced cancer risk. Similar to raw veggies, shouldn’t raw fruit be healthy? The research methods suggest that the fruit category was plain fruit and not a “fruity” substance like Apfelstrudel.
Based on the aforementioned information, I still think that a moderate approach regarding vegetables is best, some raw and some cooked.
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1. According to this article http://www.aging-no-more.com/advanced-glycation-end-products.html (http://www.aging-no-more.com/advanced-glycation-end-products.html)
“The browning of food…is achieved by heating or cooking sugars with proteins in the absence of water, and in this process AGEs are formed.”
“water prevents sugars from binding to protein molecules. By eating fruits and vegetables raw or by cooking them in water or with steam prevents AGEs from forming.”
It seems that steaming or boiling creates an insignificant amount of AGES.
2. Neither dietary nor endogenous enzymes are capable of breaking down cellulose matter; intact cellulose rich foods pass completely undigested through the digestive system. In the case of cellulose rich vegetables, dietary enzymes are a moot point.
Juicing is an alternative; the cell walls are ruptured thoroughly in this case.
3. According to WHFoods:
“Cooking of vegetables and fruits for longer periods of time (10-20 minutes) can result in a loss of over one half the total vitamin C content.”
Vitamin C may be the most heat sensitive vitamin in vegetables and >50% loss is significant. However, a couple cups of raw broccoli have 370% of your daily need for vitamin C, if you lost half you would still have an ample 185%.
Some vegetable nutrients are said to be better absorbed when cooked, carotenes in particular. And of course vegetables are loaded with anti-nutrients that are deactivated by heating.
The nutrient tradeoff for raw vs. cooked veggies is in favor of cooked in my opinion. However, you can always have some of each to get the best of both worlds ;).
4. Tyler, the study you cited http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788)shows correlation not causation, perhaps people who ate more raw salads also exercised more, ate more nutritiously and avoided unhealthy habits such as smoking. If you take the study at face value it has some bizarre conclusions:
a. Wholegrain products are correlated with a reduced risk of cancer, yup aside from raw veggies, a big serving of cooked wholegrain products is the only other variable which keeps you healthy.
b. Fruit doesn’t correlate with reduced cancer risk. Similar to raw veggies, shouldn’t raw fruit be healthy? The research methods suggest that the fruit category was plain fruit and not a “fruity” substance like Apfelstrudel.
Based on the aforementioned information, I still think that a moderate approach regarding vegetables is best, some raw and some cooked.
Is this a troll?
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I don't think so.
It is a logical opinion from a cooked point of view.
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I don't think so.
It is a logical opinion from a cooked point of view.
Actually, I misread what he wrote, my apologies.
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Thank you Goodsamaritan my kaibigan :)
It is important to go by empirical results and decide what works for your own self.
The best way to eat animal foods and fruits are in a raw state. Animal foods have unique heat sensitive nutrients and are more susceptible to damage and toxins created by cooking.
You can easily eat raw meat, fruits, and even some vegetables. However, many vegetables are inappropriate for consumption unless processed through cooking or fermenting. Brassica family vegetables are particularly hard to eat raw and contain goitrogens and anti-nutrients; can you imagine eating large volumes of raw broccoli, cabbage, or bok choy on a daily basis?
Isn't it better to enjoy the benefits of raw animals, fruits, and plants, as well as the benefits of some cooked vegetables. The benefits of raw food consumption operate on a spectrum, not an either or dichotomy.
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I'm not a fan of cooked vegetables. I'm on the camp of Aajonus that says some people are allergic to cooked vegetables. I eat raw vegetables from time to time like celery or pounding sweet potato leaves. Other than that I am not convinced of any healing power of cooked vegetables as staple food. As healing herbs maybe such as boiling leaves for tea, pounding leaves, etc.
I came across Henry Bieler's soup vs raw meat and in my experience with healing people, raw meat works so much better than the Bieler's soup.
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You can easily eat raw meat, fruits, and even some vegetables. However, many vegetables are inappropriate for consumption unless processed through cooking or fermenting. Brassica family vegetables are particularly hard to eat raw and contain goitrogens and anti-nutrients; can you imagine eating large volumes of raw broccoli, cabbage, or bok choy on a daily basis?
Isn't it better to enjoy the benefits of raw animals, fruits, and plants, as well as the benefits of some cooked vegetables. The benefits of raw food consumption operate on a spectrum, not an either or dichotomy.
The whole point of the palaeo concept is that one should never eat foods that are inedible when raw; so, foods with high levels of antinutrients when raw, should also be avoided when cooked. The point being that we have not evolved to digest those properly.
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1. According to this article http://www.aging-no-more.com/advanced-glycation-end-products.html (http://www.aging-no-more.com/advanced-glycation-end-products.html)
“The browning of food…is achieved by heating or cooking sugars with proteins in the absence of water, and in this process AGEs are formed.”
“water prevents sugars from binding to protein molecules. By eating fruits and vegetables raw or by cooking them in water or with steam prevents AGEs from forming.”
It seems that steaming or boiling creates an insignificant amount of AGES.
I find it saddening that there are so many websites out there deliberately spreading lies or deliberately suppressing data. The worst examples are those websites which pretend that boiling, or otherwise lightly cooking any foods "causes negligible amounts of AGEs to form" - easily disproven by looking at data-tables re AGEs and boiling. In the above case you cited, AGEs are also caused by oxidising fats in the presence of proteins via heat(they are sometimes called "advanced lipoxidation end products", but are a type of AGE.
It is also NOT true that cooking fully in water completely reduces the amounts of AGEs formed to 0. If that were true, then the tables would show the AGE-levels to be 0 for all boiled foods. Obviously not the case.
2. Neither dietary nor endogenous enzymes are capable of breaking down cellulose matter; intact cellulose rich foods pass completely undigested through the digestive system. In the case of cellulose rich vegetables, dietary enzymes are a moot point.
Humans can, apparently, digest cellulose to some extent:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8719737 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8719737)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose)
Juicing is an alternative; the cell walls are ruptured thoroughly in this case.
Juicing is a very BAD idea. There have been frequent negative reports about juicing in the RVAF diet community. People have claimed to get nutritional deficiencies, eventually, from juicing. It has been suggested that juicing not only liberates more nutrients, but that it also makes the antinutrients in raw vegetables more bioavailable - since juicing also allows one to consume far more vegetable nutrients/antinutrients than if one ate only solid, raw vegetables(there is less of a "stop" feeling in the stomach re liquids), one can see how that might cause problems.
3. According to WHFoods:
“Cooking of vegetables and fruits for longer periods of time (10-20 minutes) can result in a loss of over one half the total vitamin C content.”
Vitamin C may be the most heat sensitive vitamin in vegetables and >50% loss is significant. However, a couple cups of raw broccoli have 370% of your daily need for vitamin C, if you lost half you would still have an ample 185%.
I doubt that the RDA government figures are remotely reliable. I suspect that the true figures are much higher. But the point is that cooking also creates toxins into the bargain.
Some vegetable nutrients are said to be better absorbed when cooked, carotenes in particular. And of course vegetables are loaded with anti-nutrients that are deactivated by heating.
The carotenes are increased in amount after cooking vegetables, according to studies, but they are not made more bioavailable per se. There seems to be some misunderstanding by many websites - making something more bioavailable(as in better absorption via digestion) is NOT the same as increasing the amounts of a particular nutrient in a food via cooking.
The nutrient tradeoff for raw vs. cooked veggies is in favor of cooked in my opinion. However, you can always have some of each to get the best of both worlds ;).
The trade-off is clearly negative, given the above points I mentioned. The point is, simply, that one can get all the nutrients one needs from raw meats , raw fruits, and a few raw vegetables much lower in antinutrients than broccoli et al, without ever needing to cook since a) raw meats and raw fruits contain much higher levels of nutrients than cooked meats or cooked fruits and b) no cooking means no toxins, unlike with cooking(assuming the raw foods are of high quality, not grainfed, raw meats and the like).
4. The study cited above: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14690788)shows correlation not causation, perhaps people who ate more raw salads also exercised more, ate more nutritiously and avoided unhealthy habits such as smoking. If you take the study at face value it has some bizarre conclusions:
a. Wholegrain products are correlated with a reduced risk of cancer, yup aside from raw veggies, a big serving of cooked wholegrain products is the only other variable which keeps you healthy.
b. Fruit doesn’t correlate with reduced cancer risk. Similar to raw veggies, shouldn’t raw fruit be healthy? The research methods suggest that the fruit category was plain fruit and not a “fruity” substance like Apfelstrudel.
Fruit might have other negative aspects(when eaten in quantity) which might block a protective effect against cancer. I believe Paleophil once cited a lone study condemning natural fructose in raw fruit?
However, all in all, the aforementioned study I cited is merely one of a vast multitude of studies confirming that raw plant foods are healthier/more protective against cancer than cooked animal foods. There are many similiar, additional studies showing that the more the vegetables etc. get cooked, the more carcinogenic/less anti-carcinogenic they will be. So, since science operates on the notion that the side with the highest number of studies is the winner, your point is somewhat debunked....
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I can't get hold of a decent list of AGE-content in foods. The only good one is a PDF file searchable on google, called "Advanced Glycation End Products in Foods and a Practical Guide to Their Reduction in the Diet JAIME URIBARRI, MD; SANDRA WOODRUFF, RD; SUSAN GOODMAN, RD; WEIJING CAI, MD; XUE CHEN, MD; RENATA PYZIK, MA, MS; ANGIE YONG, MPH; GARY E. STRIKER, MD; HELEN VLASSARA, MD".
. Note how high amounts of AGEs that cold-pressed(technically raw!) olive-oil has, showing how even a little processing can be harmful.
Here's another, shorter, table:-
http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/age-content-of-foods.html (http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/age-content-of-foods.html)
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I can't get hold of a decent list of AGE-content in foods. The only good one is a PDF file searchable on google, called "Advanced Glycation End Products in Foods and a Practical Guide to Their Reduction in the Diet JAIME URIBARRI, MD; SANDRA WOODRUFF, RD; SUSAN GOODMAN, RD; WEIJING CAI, MD; XUE CHEN, MD; RENATA PYZIK, MA, MS; ANGIE YONG, MPH; GARY E. STRIKER, MD; HELEN VLASSARA, MD".
Unfortunately the list in that pdf is also rather short...
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Unfortunately the list in that pdf is also rather short...
Did you even have a look at that list? It has the longest list of tables on the web, something like 10+ pages full! Hardly short!
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Did you even have a look at that list? It has the longest list of tables on the web, something like 10+ pages full! Hardly short!
Sorry you're very right. There is a shortened version of the list halfway down the doc. The rest of the document wasn't loaded yet so i didn't saw the whole version. That is a very respectable list indeed ;)
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Note how high amounts of AGEs that cold-pressed(technically raw!) olive-oil has, showing how even a little processing can be harmful.
« Cold-pressed oil » only means that it has been extracted with no heat provided by an external source. But as every kid who has ever inflated a bicycle tire knows, pressure increase generates heat. For example, a compression pressure of 50 bars elevates the temperature of the compressed air to more than 500°C, enough for spontaneous inflammation of the fuel in a Diesel engine – also called “compression ignition engine”.
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Fruit might have other negative aspects(when eaten in quantity) which might block a protective effect against cancer. I believe Paleophil once cited a lone study condemning natural fructose in raw fruit?
I vaguely remember something like that, though studies tend to be prone to error, of course. More convincingly, I do remember that wild chimps that eat fruit-heavy diets are prone to caries, so I do think it's possible to overdo it on fruits, and fruit-heavy vegans do seem to fare worse than other vegans, anecdotally, but I wouldn't condemn eating any and all fruit. I suspect that it's more a problem of balance than of fruit being inherently bad, and wild fruit is probably not nearly as much of a problem as the processed fructose that's used in studies, with the results then irresponsibly extrapolated to fruits.
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yum@cookedvegetables.com
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, but I wouldn't condemn eating any and all fruit. I suspect that it's more a problem of balance than of fruit being inherently bad, and wild fruit is probably not nearly as much of a problem as the processed fructose that's used in studies,
Brix makes an enormous difference. There's a world of difference between 8 Brix oranges and 25 Brix oranges. Orange juice companies pay more for higher Brix fruit, and orange growers use Brix readings to determine when to harvest.
I've noticed far less of the usual problems that fruit tends to cause if I stick to high-Brix fruit, most definitely.
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Brix makes an enormous difference. There's a world of difference between 8 Brix oranges and 25 Brix oranges. Orange juice companies pay more for higher Brix fruit, and orange growers use Brix readings to determine when to harvest.
I've noticed far less of the usual problems that fruit tends to cause if I stick to high-Brix fruit, most definitely.
Okay, I need a new brix meter. Any suggestions?
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Okay, I need a new brix meter. Any suggestions?
You already have one built-in inside your mouth :
http://www.highbrixgardens.com/what-is-brix.html (http://www.highbrixgardens.com/what-is-brix.html)
High Brix Foods Taste Better
Why won’t little Johnny eat his peas? They taste terrible. Little Johnny instinctively knows that sweet tasting peas are better while poor-quality peas are instantly rejected. Have you ever eaten a 22 brix grape? Once you have you won’t forget the taste. A candy bar will be held in disdain by little Jane compared to 22 brix grapes. Ask any old-timer if they like the taste of fruits and vegetables now compared to when they were young. I am sure you won’t be able to find a single person that feels today’s are better. Taste is built upon the upon the carbohydrate and mineral levels in the produce. When they decline so does the taste. What about aroma? That seems lost as well. Todays average 2-3 brix hydroponic greenhouse tomato looks like a tomato but it has virtually no aroma and is nearly tasteless. It is a poor caricature of what a tomato should be. As a culture Americans are so used to eating low quality produce we don’t even know what really good produce tastes like.
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Okay, I need a new brix meter. Any suggestions?
I always just get one off Ebay. I have a Sun Instruments brand, works great, cost me about $40. Their website is www.suninstruments.com (http://www.suninstruments.com)
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You already have one built-in inside your mouth :
Yeah, but it takes a few months of regularly eating a specific type of fruit and Brixing it before you are good at guessing the Brix without checking it first. I can still be fooled by fruits I don't eat very often. I'm never completely off, but I can miss by a few Brix degrees.
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Regarding the Paleo concept, the actual Paleoman’s approach was simple: do what works.
If a human can’t naturally digest certain raw foods, he can use his mind to find ways to process, cook, and utilize such foods. Humans haven’t physically evolved to hunt animals. It is the mind which devises unnatural artifacts such as spears, arrows, and knives thus enabling the consumption of meat.
That being said, you have knowledge that raw foods possess unique health benefits and if it works for you, then by all means do it. It is your mind which allows you to master your world.
Regarding cooked vegetables, I equated cooking vegetables with cooking broccoli, probably because it is a vegetable that is unpractical to eat when raw. The situation had to be remedied because brassica and cruciferous vegetables are championed as nutritious super foods and the goitrogens they contain are benign in vivo. Any side effects of gentle steaming would be mitigated by the sheer healthfulness of the tree-like vegetable.
However, I recently came across an article from the WAPF http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/bearers-of-the-cross (http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/bearers-of-the-cross). The article has an alternative view of cruciferous vegetables. Crucifers and vegetables in general were uncommon in historical human diets and indeed the goitrogens in crucifers have deleterious consequences even when cooked. This new knowledge caused me to reevaluate my opinion of cooked cruciferous vegetables. It is important to modify your diet to go with what works.
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Regarding the Paleo concept, the actual Paleoman’s approach was simple: do what works.
If a human can’t naturally digest certain raw foods, he can use his mind to find ways to process, cook, and utilize such foods. Humans haven’t physically evolved to hunt animals. It is the mind which devises unnatural artifacts such as spears, arrows, and knives thus enabling the consumption of meat.
Wrong. Tools like traps, arrows etc. seem to have only been invented c. 60,000 years ago, according to the latest evidence(well, John Shea the palaeoanthropologist on allexperts.com anyway). Hominids went in for eating/hunting meats before even the start of the Palaeolithic era, with increased meat-consumption starting, in particular, 2.5 million years ago or so, when the palaeo era started.
As for cooking foods, that is only necessary if one is a hunter-gatherer who is constantly under threat of starvation due to limited resources, so needs to also eat a wide range of low-quality (cooked) foods as well just in order to stay alive - another reason not to buy into WP's ideas. Modern peoples have vast resources so should stick to the best available (raw) foods.
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Humans haven’t physically evolved to hunt animals.
I do not agree with this statement.
Humans even in early paleo may have eaten shellfish like oysters clams, crabs, shrimps, frogs, turtles, fish by the sea shore and rivers and lakes. Then onto insects, grubs, worms, eggs. As to big game, remember the dodo birds? Betcha a lot of dodos are now extinct being favorite human foods.
Philippines was paleo like rich in tons and tons of food when the Spaniards began recorded history in the 1520s, it was like the garden of eden. Tons of aquatic food, forest game, wild fruits and honey.
Cooking is a survival trait, but not optimal. Hey, I stock canned goods and our emergency bags have canned goods. Never know when a disaster will hit you.
When my children are sick I do not ever count on cooked vegetables for recovery... absolutely no way.
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Tyler,
Wrong. Tools like traps, arrows etc. seem to have only been invented c. 60,000 years ago, according to the latest evidence
Humans have no useful physical adaptations to facilitate killing a beast which could weigh thousands of pounds. All we have is fisticuffs vs. a woolly rhinoceros, in addition to our ferocious chompers of course. Even if you managed to slay the beast, you would still need a sharp blade to dress the carcass and extract the meat. The point is cognitive ability and technology allow us achieve goals that are otherwise biologically or naturally impossible.
As for cooking foods, that is only necessary if one is a hunter-gatherer who is constantly under threat of starvation due to limited resources, so needs to also eat a wide range of low-quality (cooked) foods as well just in order to stay alive
Your spot on, Paleoman domesticated grains to achieve survival goals; a consistent supply of calorie energy was the main priority. Times and circumstances change, survival in the modern world requires excellence in health. Eating wholesome and nutritious food is the main priority.
another reason not to buy into WP's ideas.
The WAPF tries to be moderate and sensible in my opinion. According to the WAPF, humans can be healthy and strong on a variety of diets which contain high quality natural foods, much of it raw.
Modern peoples have vast resources so should stick to the best available (raw) foods.
Theoretically the exclusive consumption of the best (raw) foods is good; however, one issue I have is that many raw dieters report improvements in physical performance with the inclusion of cooked starches. For me, a fully raw diet would be realistic if there was a practical source of raw non-fruit starch.
Goodsamaritan,
Humans even in early paleo may have eaten shellfish like oysters clams, crabs, shrimps, frogs, turtles, fish by the sea shore and rivers and lakes. Then onto insects, grubs, worms, eggs. As to big game, remember the dodo birds? Betcha a lot of dodos are now extinct being favorite human foods.
Although those are great foods, I was thinking about animals like bison and mammoth. Seafood was nourishing and easy to obtain, but bone remnants indicate that big game was an important dietary component in archaic societies.
Cooking is a survival trait, but not optimal. Hey, I stock canned goods and our emergency bags have canned goods. Never know when a disaster will hit you.
Be prepared and stay safe and sound bro.
When my children are sick I do not ever count on cooked vegetables for recovery... absolutely no way.
In historical medical texts that I’ve read the healers frequently recommended meat as the best food for the sick and healthy alike. I believe that meat has the best healing properties of foods, raw meat is loaded with anti-oxidants as well.
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Tyler,Humans have no useful physical adaptations to facilitate killing a beast which could weigh thousands of pounds.
Uhm yes we do, our brain.
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*Moved back to hot topics where this subject belongs*. Cooked vegetables-oriented subjects do not belong in the raw, omnivorous forum at all.
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Tyler,Humans have no useful physical adaptations to facilitate killing a beast which could weigh thousands of pounds. All we have is fisticuffs vs. a woolly rhinoceros, in addition to our ferocious chompers of course. Even if you managed to slay the beast, you would still need a sharp blade to dress the carcass and extract the meat. The point is cognitive ability and technology allow us achieve goals that are otherwise biologically or naturally impossible.
Dead wrong, there. First of all, most anthropologists point out that mass hunting only really appeared towards the tail-end of the Palaeolithic era. Before that point, hominids were primarily scavengers who waited until after predators had had their fill before scavenging the rotting remains. Indeed, it is theorised that because they ate high-grade nutrients the predators left behind(specifically brains and marrow) their hominid brains thereby increased in size as a result. So no need for them to have used knives or any other tools for cutting up meats etc. Cooking is only necessary for dealing with low-quality foods that should be avoided anyway.
The WAPF tries to be moderate and sensible in my opinion. According to the WAPF, humans can be healthy and strong on a variety of diets which contain high quality natural foods, much of it raw.
Unfortunately, the WAPF and WP make themselves ridiculous by suggesting that all sorts of HGs on quite different diets to each other were all universally healthy. This is ridiculously unlikely. And there is really no proof of any validity to back WP/WAPF's claims. Indeed, there is evidence, here and there, to suggest that HGs were by no means perfect paragons of health, being merely "less unhealthy" than modern peoples on SAD diets.
Theoretically the exclusive consumption of the best (raw) foods is good; however, one issue I have is that many raw dieters report improvements in physical performance with the inclusion of cooked starches. For me, a fully raw diet would be realistic if there was a practical source of raw non-fruit starch.
While a few sickly people have suggested resorting to cooked starch, I have serious doubts that it works. Certainly not for me, I do better on raw meats and raw fruits re physical performance, just feel bodged on cooked starches.
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So, hominids used other predators as a proxy for obtaining meat. That backs up what I was saying.
Hominids lack the physical characteristics to hunt animals, using predators to hunt for you is the same principle as using a spear: they are both cognitively devised technologies which achieve goals beyond your physical (bodily) capabilities.
Just to clarify, this is not about actually eating meat, nor is it about ancient hominids; it is about modern human beings and the use of cognitive power to overcome the limitations imposed by nature.
Tyler, you mentioned you get sufficient energy for physical performance with raw meat and fruits. How much fruit do you consume on average?
Are there any concern about fructose? There are conflicting opinions about the subject.
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Palaeo humans did not need to be hunters of big game. They could harvest clams or kill and eat smaller animals without any need for claws, spears, intelligence or whatever. Plus, I am not convinced that humans were unable to hunt and carve big game without knives or use of fire etc. Humans were pretty clever even then.
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How easy it is to:
- Persistence hunt (try this with your dog, you will always win)
- Scare them off a cliff.
- set up a trap, pit, etc.
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David Attenborough - African Kalahari Desert Kudu Persistence Hunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8#ws)
This explains how humans were designed to hunt.
A guy from my church did an entire homily on the subject.
It basically explained how we evolved from more primitive hominids who learned to gather and scavenge animal foods, which sparked the great leap in brain growth. That larger brain needed more and more animal foods to support, which drove us to evolve to be capable of tracking and running down animals on foot until the animal is exhausted and easily killed with a stone, or stick.
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Re: Dr. Price saying that all HG diets are equivalent for health--no he did NOT. You have to read fairly carefully, but he specifically mentions that diets that included significant amounts of seafoods as being the best. He specifically mentions the Peruvian Indians and the Maori as having the best teeth, especially the Maori. Both of those groups emphasized seafoods for health. He mentions that the Maasai had the best teeth of all the African groups he studied, and he attributes that to their consumption of large amounts of cattle products, both meat and milk. He very specifically points out that the groups that ate more grains/carbs did NOT have as good teeth or bone structure, like the Swiss and the Bantu.
He mentions that the Eskimos had the most robust skeletons and jaw structure and largest brains, and attributes that to the seafoods in their diet, although we know now that their extremely strong jaws and larger brains are probably genetic, at least somewhat.
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Nice to see the rest of the world is slowly catching up with Dr weston price:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15823276 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15823276)
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/15/1113050108 (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/15/1113050108)
Although I think they interpreted the research results wrong.
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More primitive animals than hominins, like chimps, baboons, tarsiers and lorids, hunt little critters and some of them even hunt some surprisingly large game. Hunting is rather common among primates.
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Persistence hunting utilizes bipedal locomotion and bodily energy stores; you can hunt with your own body this way, cool. I was wondering how a human could hunt with only their natural physical endowments, other predatory animals use their fangs, claws, or brute strength.
Cherimoya_kid, you are correct. Dr. Price found that African tribes who consumed more animal products tended to be stronger and have better teeth. Interestingly, the Dinka tribe had .2% incidence of caries compared to the Masai who had .4%. The Dinka tribe ate liberal amounts of fish and whole grains.
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Actually, it's surprising how little animals make use of their natural weapons. For example, a very large number of predators(eg:- cheetahs/crocodiles etc. etc.) prefer to go in for suffocating their prey to death, as steadily mauling them to death with their claws is far too time-consuming, and even somewhat risky.
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There is plenty of info in this forum on how humans and other animals can hunt insects, grubs, lizards, eggs, and even large game without using fangs, claws, or brute strength and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think of ways of doing so, so I'm left wondering how anyone could be snookered by the vegetarian arguments on the topic.
The tarsier is an obligate carnivore. Here is an image of one:
(http://www.tarsier.com/tarsier.jpg)
Does it look like the tarsier uses big fangs, claws, or brute strength or that one needs these in order to eat a carnivorous diet?
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Actually, it's surprising how little animals make use of their natural weapons. For example, a very large number of predators(eg:- cheetahs/crocodiles etc. etc.) prefer to go in for suffocating their prey to death, as steadily mauling them to death with their claws is far too time-consuming, and even somewhat risky.
Excellent point. The more thrashing around, the more both prey and predator can get hit.