Lex, did you ever reach a point where you didn't have spill over ketones on an 80%fat/20% protein diet?  Seems, like you were on that for a while, but your urine ketones stayed high, correct?  You had given yourself more than 2weeks to adapt, is that also correct?  Was it only when you up'd protein that your urine ketones went back down?

Overall-- I think were on the same page Lex-- my ideas change over time to support what I think leads to best knowledge we have on health.

My comment to use vitamin c was a suggestion-- in no ways did I say 100% that it would make things better for sure--  especially because I've never tolerated vitamin c supplements as well, I was only suggestioning to try very small amounts (such as 100mg or less)-- but like I said-- I feel that a "little bit of plant material might be better, especially a little of fruit" --  and I know that while it doesn't work for you at the moment, you do recommend it for others.

I'm sure that as time passes, more research will come out to support certain biomarkers-- and I hope we have a better idea of what the optimal range for biomarkers are.  Or if it is really bad or not that A1c is raised.

Feeling good every day is not the only marker for health-- I'm sure you'd agree with me on that-- I've seen vegans feel good for years before there health went down the tubes.

Everything that we are discussing is only possible because you'd done a great job of showing your stats-- hopefully, over time this will lead to a better understanding of what stat values are of importance.

PaleoPhil l-- I completely understand how you feel on the subject.  In fact, the only supplements I ever consider taking are iodine, little bit of fermented cod liver oil, and once in a blue moon, vitamin k2 (because I don't like to eat organs-- and k2 has been showing great benefits in fighting heart disease and also for certain cancers)

I think people have taken my argument for vitamin c out of hand-- I just made a conjecture that Lex's A1c values would improve with a little bit of vitamin c--  that might of even turned out to be false.

What I would argue for without question-- is going from a 0 carb diet with 0 fruits and 0 veggies-- to a diet that is almost 100% animal products with a little fruit and veggies to bring carb intake to 30-50 grams a day.  This would also allow the body to benefit from the different micronutrients contained in plant material.  That would be better than supplementing vitamin c in my mind.  Because lex has said before that he is not willing to injest the plant matter-- i just threw it out there that he might "consider" a little bit of c.

Especially because Lex is very open and frank about his prostate issues- i just don't see how he could completely ignore the idea of a little raw plant material when there have been many studies done to show plant chemical benefits in this area.

So you're saying that every known animal except humans produces its own vitamin c? Are there any exceptions to this? It sounds like you are saying that we should all consume vitamin c because you are very sure that humans are the only ones that don't produce it--more sure about this than anything else you've been saying, yes?

If you go by wiki "Vitamin C or L-ascorbic acid is an essential nutrient for humans, a large number of higher primate species, a small number of other mammalian species (notably guinea pigs and bats), a few species of birds, and some fish."  I bet a could back this up from other sources if I look.  This is good enough for me.  As it stands, humans are in a small group of animals that do not produce vitamin c.

By no means am I looking for Lex to increase his carb intake.  At this point in time-- I'm only interested in seeing if at some point- if he'd consider adding some vitamin c in supplemental form to see if it changes his lab values or well-being.

My doctor had the same concerns as you.  After 3 years he's thrown in the towel.  Vitamin C deficiency shows itself within weeks and death occurs within a couple of months of the onset of symptoms.  If I were going to get scurvy I'd have been dead long ago.  I take no supplements and my blood tests show no deficiencies in the elements that are measured.  You are free to look at them. They are all posted as pdf files attached to the first entry of this journal.


Just because you don't have deficiency-- doesn't mean you are getting an optimal amount-- over time your body will show the wear and tear-- just like there are healthy vegans for years before they start deteriorating. I don't believe your elevated A1c is just genetic.  There is probably a combination of food or nutrients that would help to bring this down.  I think vitamin c is one of them.


There has been some speculation in the scientific world as to why humans don't experience vitamin C deficiency when eating a fresh meat diet.  One theory that I've heard is that Vitamin C does its antioxidant work by contributing an electron to neutralize charged free radicals.  It just so happens that uric acid is even a better electron donor than Vitamin C and therefore has better antioxidant properties than Vitamin C.  Is this true?,  I have no idea and I'm not sure anyone else does either.  What I am sure of is that I haven't eaten any fruits, vegetables, or carbs of any kind in about 4 years and my health just keeps improving. 

I don't buy into the argument that Uric acid is safe-- I can give you tons of pub med articles showing the uric acid is a contributor to inflammation and other dangers.  Once again- I'd like to know your level - it's curiously missing from your tests.  I feel that our genetic ancestors had raised uric acid levels to deal with the drop of vitamin c in our diet.  It's a double whammy, we lost the ability to produce vitamin c because our primate ancestors ate so much of it.  And when we started to roam the savannah, our vitamin c intake dropped and our uric acid levels raised to protect us.  As long as our primate ancestors lived long enough to reproduce- that was all that mattered.  As thinking humans, we should try to come up with a diet scenario that is optimal for longevity.  I feel like humans have a need for vitamin c that is greater than the trace amounts you get in muscle tissue--  Remember, all carnivores produce there own vitamin c.
 
I can easily tolerate 50 grams of carbohydrate a day but if I don't need it, and my health is much better than when I was eating carbs, then why would I do this?  Second, you seem to think that dietary protein is converted to glucose only because there is no carb source.  I don't think this way.  I think there is evidence that 50 to 60 percent of all protein eaten is converted to glucose regardless of whether we eat carbs or not. (Look at my previous post to Paleo D for my reasoning.)  Why on earth would I want to add carbs just to add to the glucose load my body must handle?

Once again-- there are tons of articles on pub med showing the protein-sparring effects of carbohydrates.  Even if I eat a high fat diet myself-- I just don't trust having high ketones all the time-- I suspect that you feel better on a higher protein diet because your body does not need to produce them with the higher-conversion of protein to glycogen-- I just ask, why not just eat a few carbs-- rather then having my liver convert them from protein. And overall, stay out of ketosis.

What evidence do you have for these statements?  I have much better health than when I was eating plant materials with all those 'protective compounds', and I certainly am not showing any signs of nutritional deficiency.  I would change in a heartbeat if things weren't working, but they are working wonderfully well, and have been for several years now.

Plant materials work by stimulating phase I/II reactions in the body-- it may just be the our livers need to be taxed from time to time to keep working well-- possibly like exercise.  Compounds like Resveratrol  or Turmeric work because of a hormetic response--

Again, how do you know this with so much certainty?  I know of no objective studies that come to this conclusion.

Have you missed the last 30 years of research on plant compounds and there effects on they have on the body?  Almost all of them are toxins to some degree- I am not saying to have lots of them- just some - and definitely not zero.

Sounds like pure nonsense to me.  You are correct that we are now discovering all sorts of hormonal effects of plant compounds and the majority of them are bad.  What could possibly make you believe that processing toxins from plant materials is what makes us stronger?  What studies can you produce that support such a statement?

Just look at pub med for studies on Resveratrol, turmeric, or even green tea compounds.  All of them are plant defenses- and are slightly toxic- but look to all the articles that show benefit from slight consumption.

You can see my blood potassium, calcium, and other mineral levels in my annual blood tests posted in the first entry of this log.  They all show normal and for the most part right down the middle of the acceptable range.

Your bone scan done now-- and possibly in 5 or 10 years down the road will show what is going on here.

How do you know this?  I know others that have eaten an exclusive muscle-meat-only diet for over 4 years and they show no deficiencies of any kind. 

I feel that you should be eating organ meats because carnivores instinctively know that they need to obtain vitamins from them.  In fact, most carnivores go after the stomach first-- and there is usually half digested plant material in them.  Over time, I think your body would miss the vitamin a, the folate, and the multitude of other compounds found in foods such as liver.  No other carnivore eats only flesh and fat.  It may be another situation where it takes years to show problems-- just has it can take years for vegans to show problems.  And it may be that we need some compounds from plant material to be optimal for the long term.

All of the concerns you've brought up were voiced by my personal doctor as well.  All of his gloom and doom predictions have not come true.  I have no idea why I show no nutritional deficiencies on such a restricted diet of raw red meat and fat, but I don't.  I assure you that if I did, I'd change things in a hurry.  You see, I'm not about doing what doctors and diet gurus think is right, I'm all about what actually works.  Raw red meat, fat, and zero carb intake has been working very well for me for over 3 years.  Based on that 'real' evidence, I'll stick with it for the foreseeable future, and let others like yourself worry over things that might be problems, but aren't.

I hope you stay healthy.  I'll be extremely interested to see what happens 5/10/20 years down the road. I feel that humans do have very small mineral requirements-- which is why we can almost eat just about anything for the first 30 years of life and still be healthy and reproduce-- I'm hedging my bet with the thought that if i don't eat organ meats.  I'd want to make sure I'm getting the loss of nutrients from some other type of food or substance.