Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Off Topic => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on January 26, 2012, 08:11:45 pm
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Obama's Unshakable Bondage To Bibi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv9K1QWlESA#ws)
Wow. Total proof that USA is a lapdog of Israel. Must watch. Americans, what do you think of this proof?
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I think it's verging on pointless anti-Semitism.
I think an ideal solution would be to have the Jews sell Israel piece-by-piece back to the Arabs, and have them move to the US. I'd love to have them here. They are generally intelligent, well-educated, cultured, and scientifically capable. If we did this in stages over about 20-25 years, it wouldn't be a big logistical problem.
The Holy Land should be neutral ground. As far as the rest of Israel, sell it to the Arabs and bring the Jews here. They'll class the place up.
People forget the Holocaust so quickly. Guess what allowed/caused the Holocaust? Casual anti-Semitism that Hitler exploited for his own ends. Casual anti-Semitism is the fertile ground that crazy extremism grows in, whether Nazi, Islamic, or whatever.
Holocaust deniers will be immediately banned, so don't even start.
I agree with a two-state solution, and a gradual return to pre-1967 borders. I do NOT agree that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of the map, and all Jews killed, unlike the Iranians, etc..
Man, the Jews just get no love from anyone. Crazy extremists from the liberal AND conservative camps hate them. They're getting it from all sides. SOMEbody's got to be the voice of moderation.
It is not the place of the Jewish people to take the blame for everything that goes wrong in the world.
And that's what anti-Semitism usually is. People don't know how or want to fix their own problems, so they blame someone else.
And Edwin, I don't know why you are even bothering to comment on this. You can't have many Jews in the Phillippines. Do you even know any? Are they over there oppressing your people? ROFL
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Well, anti-Zionism is definitely not the same as anti-Semitism, especially given that many prominent Jews are anti-Zionists.
That said, didn't GS or someone else already post the same video with that same character featured in it, in the Ron Paul thread? Seems like beating a dead horse, if so.
As for Israel itself, I would be satisfied if they returned to 1948 borders and removed all those many laws which directly or indirectly discriminate against its Arab citizens, such as the most recent one banning any Palestinian marrying an Israeli from gaining Israeli citizenship.
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Well, anti-Zionism is definitely not the same as anti-Semitism, especially given that many prominent Jews are anti-Zionists.
Yeah, but the guy in the video is one rabid motherfucking anti-Semite. ROFL
And you're right, that there are plenty of anti-Zionist Jews. I think the Jews would be safer and better off in the US. Zionism is only good in theory. In practice, Jews in the US are safer from terrorist attacks. There's lots of room here, particularly for well-trained, well-educated people. Maybe people will start listening to me, one of these days.
I really think we'd be better off leaving the Muslims in the Middle East to their own devices. Move to electric vehicles and other alternatives to oil, move the Jews out of Israel, and let the Arabs rot/starve/whatever. Maybe they'll stop trying to blow up our planes.
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Al-Quaeda only ever wanted a few things, to get the Americans/West to remove their military bases from their Holy Land(Saudi Arabia), to get the West to stop invading Muslim countries and stop dominating them economically, and to expel the Israelis from the Holy Land by any means. The Americans have already kowtowed to the 1st demand.Oh, and Al-Quaeda also is said to want to set up a Muslim Caliphate uniting all Muslims worldwide under one government, but this is not a realistic goal, more to do with nostalgia for earlier times.
The way I see it, if the 1st 2 goals were all fulfilled and the Israelis also evacuated to the US, we would have far, far fewer recruits joining Al-Quaeda or other terrorist groups, and we wouldn't have to be so paranoid re security etc. It's been pointed out that most of these so-called "terrorists" are, anyway, not motivated by Islamic Fundamentalism, incidentally, but by nationalism. No one likes to be invaded or have land stolen from them.
Not so sure the Arabs would "rot" per se if Israel was evacuated. After all, they have a much higher birth-rate than in the West.
Many years ago, I once read a very frightening SF short story. Bruce Sterling is a very good writer and has been cited by many as being a pretty good predicter, in his SF works, of future social trends in the real world , not just a science fiction writer. In this short story of his, published in 1989(!), he writes about a future America which has been bankrupted and turned into a 3rd world country as a result of greedy bankers and constant wars started in order to police the world. It also features a resurgent Middle-East/Islam:-
http://www.revolutionsf.com/fiction/weseethings/01.html (http://www.revolutionsf.com/fiction/weseethings/01.html)
Let's hope that Bruce Sterling was wrong as regards this possible future.
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Excuse me.
Anti semitism is not the point of this thread.
So please drop that.
The point is the exposed subservience of your USA president to the Israel prime minister.
My point of view is I see that kind of subservience from our Philippine presidents to USA presidents.
So man, it's such an eye opener for me to see the USA president subservient to Israel!
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CK,
When you get a chance read "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy".
This has nothing to do with anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism or the Holocaust..
A girl that I almost married is Jewish. I would have had to have my 'you-know-what' unceremoniously altered if I had've married her. Some of my and my family's friends are Jewish. The Jewish faith has a point of view which is quite fascinating.
Germany was not the only country that gave Jews a hard time. Pretty much every country in the world has been tough on Jews to varying degrees at differing times and for different reasons in the past. Other religious groups and racial groups have had similar experiences through the ages, including Christians.
Having said that, GS and TD are just being factual in saying that it is dangerous for the US to suck up to and pay Israel's way. Currently and for a long time in the past, the US subsidizes Israel to the tune of $500 USD per year, per citizen.
As far as it being a good idea to import Jews into America just to bring up the IQ, I think you really ought to do more research and slip off your blinders. Not all Jews are highly educated or bright. Some are low-life terrorists/bigots/child-murderers/liars. Some are not. Just like every other group of people. In fact in Israel surveys have shown that the vast majority of the residents have a very low opinion of others of different race or ethnicity in their midst.
They have nuclear weapons and have had them for a long time, while they lied about it at first and the US turned a blind eye. They are the first ones to jump up and down when their neighbours who are scared of them, want to get their own nukes.
As far as your comments on treatment of Arabs: "let the Arabs rot/starve/whatever." it looks like you are really swallowing the kool-aid whole, or else you are Jewish and you are definitely anti-Arabistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism)
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Actually, I'm not anti-Arabic. I'm anti-religion. I'm no more fond of Christianity than I am Islam. No Christian has slaughtered 3000 innocent people in the US in the name of religion. In fact, deadly Christian religious terrorism has mainly been limited to Eric Robert Rudolph. I'm under no illusion that Christians are somehow better than Muslims, but, at this point in history, Arab Muslims are far more likely to support and condone terrorism, as well as become terrorists. It's statistical fact.
700 years ago it was the reverse. Christians were the violent, ignorant ones, and Muslims were the tolerant, educated ones. It's not that way now, though.
I never said all Jews are educated or bright. However, on average, they are the most educated, (arguably) the most intelligent, and definitely the most financially successful minority in the US.
One more thing--no Jew has ever committed a deadly terrorist act on American soil in the name of religion.
The Jews gave us Einstein. The Arabs gave us bin Laden.
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One more thing--no Jew has ever committed a deadly terrorist act on American soil in the name of religion.
I thought this claim to be highly unlikely since, for example, the State of Israel came into being as a result of Jewish terrorist organisations like the Stern Gang which bombed British targets in Palestine etc - here's a link:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism)
A cursory Googling finds that Jews have indeed carried out terrorist acts within the United States:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League)
[/quote]
The Jews gave us Einstein. The Arabs gave us bin Laden.
One can just as easily turn this around and cynically state that "The Jews gave us Karl Marx. The Arabs gave us Ibn Khaldun." Karl Marx's indirect contribution to mass-murder in the 20th century via Communism/Socialism makes bin Laden seem like a wuss, by comparison. If necessary, I can come up with endless other Jewish and Arab individuals who represent either the best or the worst of Mankind, sometimes some such individuals even represent both the best and the worst of Mankind in themselves. The point being that all human groups have "good" and "bad" people in them, with most people being somewhere inbetween.
Anyway, the subject of Zionism was already discussed ad nauseam in the Ron Paul thread. Not sure it's all that relevant to resurrect it here. Well, then again, there is the recent warmongering and sanctions in the EU, Israel and the US against Iran for its nuclear ambitions which is leading up to yet another sharp rise in oil-prices and thus impoverishing EU-members in Spain, Italy and Greece in particular since they rely on Iranian oil a lot. The West appears to be its worst enemy. Rising world oil-prices also inevitably lead to rising world food-prices, so rawpalaeos should take note.....
On a humorous side-note, Avigdor Lieberman recently suggested that Israel might eventually become part of the EU. Since admission to the EU requires a hefty obeying of endless common human rights laws, I would be most in favour, but I reckon Israel has about as much chance as Turkey of ever joining that organisation.
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Turkey might join. Maybe. Israel never will.
As far as terrorist attacks, none of those were on US soil, in that article.
I'm not saying Jews don't commit terrorism, I know a few have. None have ever flown any planes into buildings in my country, though, and I don't think they ever will.
Karl Marx's work simply was the seed that grew in fertile ground. People were tired of being oppressed. Let's not give him credit for other people's acts, good or bad. He's not God, god, or anything other than a man.
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Turkey is currently an associate member of the EU and will be a full member some day , which they would be better off not joining unless the Germans can bring some financial discipline to the organization. If Turkey were a full member of the EU, it would have one of the most solid budgets of the member nations:
"Turkey has posted a first half surplus of 2.9 billion liras, a 41 year record." 7/15/2011,
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=turkish-budget-enjoys-historic-first-half-surplus-2011-07-15 (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=turkish-budget-enjoys-historic-first-half-surplus-2011-07-15)
Hey, this brother Nathaniel dude is a heck of a dancer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaQ9dFF2FDs&feature=player_embedded# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaQ9dFF2FDs&feature=player_embedded#)!
Brother Nathaniel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ykeGTKLaYA#)
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As far as terrorist attacks, none of those were on US soil, in that article.
The 2nd link I gave on the Jewish Defense League does, however, illustrate examples of attacks on US soil.
Karl Marx's work simply was the seed that grew in fertile ground. People were tired of being oppressed. Let's not give him credit for other people's acts, good or bad. He's not God, god, or anything other than a man.
Sorry, but without him, there would have been no Communism. His ideas directly led to social engineering which killed off millions, and his writings inspired butchers everywhere. Besides, like I said before, there are so many good or bad examples from both sides(or any other side, for that matter). Fritz Haber, the German Jew who invented poison gas is another example of evil, and so on. His wife committed suicide after that invention, I think(?), because she couldn't bear to be associated with him. So, generalisations are always dangerous re groups.
Turkey would be better off aligning itself economically with Iran, Syria and other nearby countries to the East. Didn't know re their budget, though.
*Well, I'm off skiing for a week; See y'all.*
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Obama's Unshakable Bondage To Bibi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv9K1QWlESA#ws)
Wow. Total proof that USA is a lapdog of Israel. Must watch. Americans, what do you think of this proof?
The United States gov't's stupid, goofball commitment to Israel has cost the American people at least $2 trillion: http://www.unintimidatedpress.com/twotrillion.htm (http://www.unintimidatedpress.com/twotrillion.htm)
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Al-Quaeda only ever wanted a few things, to get the Americans/West to remove their military bases from their Holy Land(Saudi Arabia), to get the West to stop invading Muslim countries and stop dominating them economically, and to expel the Israelis from the Holy Land by any means. The Americans have already kowtowed to the 1st demand.Oh, and Al-Quaeda also is said to want to set up a Muslim Caliphate uniting all Muslims worldwide under one government, but this is not a realistic goal, more to do with nostalgia for earlier times.
I have studied the preaching of Salafism (a branch of Islam followed by al-Qaida too).
I have also studied Taliban ideology.
I could assure you:
- Nothing is going to stop them. Their aim is not Israel, but Domination of whole world and impose the SHARIA (i.e. Islamic Law).
- Usurption of lands by Israel may started this extremism, but now this is irrelevant. Even if Israel is removed from the map, still this DREAM of forcefully imposing Sharia is not going to go away.
They believe that Prophet Muhammad and then Umar Ibn al-Khattab (the 2nd Caliph) attacked the infidels & Christian lands and occupied them and forced the Islamic Law. They believe it is compulsory upon them (religious duty) to follow this practice.
Unfortunately, the numbers of these Extremists is increasing (very rapidly) and numbers of moderate Muslims is decreasing.
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I could assure you:
- Nothing is going to stop them. Their aim is not Israel, but Domination of whole world and impose the SHARIA
.50 cal is sure bet. works most of the time.
their ideology is not going going anywhere outside of Afghanistan/Pakistan.
Good example is south Russia - Chechen region and surrounding areas. their sharia ambitions have been virtually wiped out.
Second, Iran will not cooperate with them (only in very small circumstances where they may have small common goals, but generally no). Saudis will not give up their influence to them nor won't share with them. Turkey is not willing to share the influence as well. India and China (China especially) won't allow that as well.
There will be small pockets outside of Afghanistan/Pakistan but generally it'll be very confined.
Domination of whole world is an absurdity that can't be taken seriously. I'll start believing in it when Saudis and Iranian Ayatollahs start kissing each other butts. In other words, never going to happen.
on another note can anyone explain why US resumed giving military aid to Egypt after they imprisoned human rights group?
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Unfortunately, the numbers of these Extremists is increasing (very rapidly) and numbers of moderate Muslims is decreasing.
Why is this happening?
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regarding Brother Kapfner: he is not against JEWS but against TALMUDISM which is the core of the so-called "jewish" ideology. Those who subscribe to this ideology range from blacks like samy davis jr. to queen elizabeth 2 and the royal family. Most people who self-describe as "Jews" are Khazars, a turcic-mongol racial strain otherwise known as Ashkenazim.They constitute 80% of the so-called JEWS. THEIR mission is world zionism or the formation of a one-state with themselves as the "man-gods" of the earth. Muslims are no threat to anyone but the media which is controlled by these khazars has created this impression n peopls minds to fulfill the prophecy of Albert Pike(former head of American Freemaonry) that 3 world wars will be created and the last will be a religious war between muslims and christians who will destroy one another and in the aftermath a "new world order" will be created with "jews"(those who self-describe as such) and freemasons as the rulers of the earth. Sound crazy? do your research:
Jeff Rense(Rense radio)
Michael Collins Piper(the Piper report)
Texxe Marrs(Power of Prophecy)
Nathanial Kapfner(rea zionist news)......
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Tukic and Mongol peoples are good peoples with fascinating cultures that have interesting similarities to my own ancestral mostly-Celtic culture. So if some "Jews" are Turkic-Mongols, that is good and reason for praise, not disparagement. Most Turks, Mongols and Europeans apparently descend from the same ancient proto-Eurasian stock thousands of years ago in areas around and including where the Khazars allegedly originated from.
Supposed Khazar homeland:
(http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/koestler.jpg)
Notice that the R haplogroup, one of the most common throughout Europe, migrated through and around the believed Khazar homeland. Even if the genes were not close, the cultures may have been similar, having migrated through and settled in the same general region.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg/702px-Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg)
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I think it's verging on pointless anti-Semitism.
Nobody said a single word against Arabs. Aren't they Semites? ;) So, how could this video be anti-Semitic?
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I wasn't dissing turks or mongols, etc. I was attempting to dispel(ala arthur koestler in "the 13th tribe") the myth of the "Jewish People" as a distinct and identifiable race. I don't believe they are but many self-identify as such.
I also heard that "semites" aren't a race but a linguistic group? Any one know about this? I recall Bassar al assad's statement when stigmatized as "anti-semitic" that the Syrian's were semites! It is not an actual race which underlies talmudism but a racist ideology(which IS "talmudism"). I'm sure many ashkenazim are not talmudists such as brother nathanial kapfner.
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I wasn't dissing turks or mongols, etc.
Here are the bits you said about the Turkic Khazars that seem negative:
THEIR mission is world zionism or the formation of a one-state with themselves as the "man-gods" of the earth. ... the media which is controlled by these khazars has created this impression n peopls minds to fulfill the prophecy of Albert Pike(former head of American Freemaonry) that 3 world wars will be created and the last will be a religious war between muslims and christians who will destroy one another and in the aftermath a "new world order" will be created with "jews"(those who self-describe as such) and freemasons as the rulers of the earth. ....
If this isn't dissing these Turkic Khazars, then what is?
If they are Khazars, then they are a distinct Turkic people and to me that's a selling point. I don't know why you paired that with negative talk. If they are Khazars then I am more interested in friendly relations with them, not less so--especially if they should some day embrace their Turkic heritage and culture. Perhaps some of it has survived to this day, as with most peoples?
Turks were once all Shamanic and most had horses (or camels). Some became Jews, some Muslims, some Christians and some Buddhists and many lost their horses. Who knows, maybe some day they will return to their old Shamanic religion and get their horses back?
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.50 cal is sure bet. works most of the time.
their ideology is not going going anywhere outside of Afghanistan/Pakistan.
Good example is south Russia - Chechen region and surrounding areas. their sharia ambitions have been virtually wiped out.
Second, Iran will not cooperate with them (only in very small circumstances where they may have small common goals, but generally no). Saudis will not give up their influence to them nor won't share with them. Turkey is not willing to share the influence as well. India and China (China especially) won't allow that as well.
There will be small pockets outside of Afghanistan/Pakistan but generally it'll be very confined.
Firstly, I would suggest to not to watch the countries Saudia, Turky & Iran, but to concentrate upon the DRIVING FORCES behind these 3 countries.
- Saudia ....... Driving Force is "Salafism"
- Turkey ........ Driving Force is "Sunni Islam"
- Iran ............. Driving Force is "Shia Islam"
Historically there were only 2 branches of Islam (Shia & Sunni), while Salafist came as sub branch of Sunnism.
Problem is this that "Sunni Majority" in Every Country (world wide) is changing towards Salafism at rapid pace.
25-30 years ago, Majority of Pakistanies and Afghanies were also Sunni Muslims. But not any more.
In all Arab countries too, majority is perhaps still Sunnies, but within 5-10 years they will Salafi majority.
And it is not only Pakistan/Afghanistan, but look at the ARAB Spring. This Arab Spring has brought Salafies into power. Even Egypt (the center of Sunni Islam) now has 25% seats of Salafists in the Parliament, and Egyptian population is turning towards Salafism very rapidly too.
Didn't you see the images of al-Qaida at many Government Houses in post Qaddafi Libya?
In Syria too, the opposition which is fighting, they are controlled by the Salafists.
In brief, very soon, all the Arab countries will have a thing which is described as "Islamic Revolution" by them.
Just imagine, at moment there is only IRAN with Islamic Revolution. But what happens if all Arab countries + Turkey + Pakistan and other few will get the al-Qaida type Revolutionary Governments?
Divide among the Salafists
In theory, Center of Salafism is Kingdom of Saudia.
But there population is slowly becoming Jihaadist (like al-Qaida and follower of Bin Laden).
Both these groups have slightly internal problems. But these problems are only minor ones. Sooner or later, they will be one as their intense hate towards other sects & religions is common, and their desire of imposing Sharia is common too.
Turkey & Iran are not so much Extremists
While majority of population of Turkey is Sunni, and also they follow Secularism (at least their Army), therefore, they are not Extremists. Unfortunately, there is again a rapid change towards Salafism in Turkish population too.
Iran follows the Shia branch of Islam. There population is not turning towards Salafism.
Although in Western world, it is common conception that Iran is an "Extremist" state, but it is not 100% true.
There may be some fields where Iranian Mullahs are showing Extremism (like compelling women to wear Hijab), but all in all, they are progressive and much more open to the world.
Iran is giving rights to their minorities like Christians & Jews. But you could forget about rights of Minorities in Salafi dominated societies.
Do you remember Taliban where they destructed the statues of Buddah & compelled the Hindu Population of Afghanistan to wear ONLY the Yellow/Chrom colour Dresses, so that they could be easily recognized every where and humiliated.
Initially many Muslims condemned Taliban for it. But Taliban replied that it was Umar Ibn al-Khattab (the 2nd Caliph of Prophet Muhammad) who also did the same when he conquered the Christian land. And practices of Umar Ibn al-Khattab are taken as part of Religion in both Salafi and Sunni Islam. Therefore, I have seen all those Muslims (who initially condemned this act), later agreeing with Taliban after this argument.
Spread of Islam (in eyes of 3 branches of Muslims)
- Sunnies claim: Islam was spread through "PREACHING". Same is about Shias.
- al-Qaida/Taliban claim: Islam was spread through "Sword" as Umar Ibn al-Khattab captured the neighboring lands and imposed Islamic Sharia.
Conclusion:
It is like a time bomb which is ticking. With present Ideology which is followed by Salafies, there will be a conflict and clash sooner or later.
Minorites and other sects will either be slaughtered, or humiliated or compelled to change their religion. This slaughtering of Christians/Hindus/Shias has already been started in Pakistan and other Muslim countries. With time it will only increase. Also remember that al-Qaida has killed several hundred thousands of Shias in suicide attacks in Iraq. And trend is clearly showing many folds increase in it.
There is ZERO percent tolerance towards other religions/cultures.
We will start watching this real face once these people start getting the power, while they will start implementing their ideology only after coming to power.
Regarding Iran:
Many Shia people of Iran have already questioning the Mullahs why Iran is siding with Palestine (remember that Hamas is a Salafi Jihaadi Organization and recently they have also turned severely against Iran upon the Syria Issue).
Iran has no direct Issues and problems with the WEST. Mostly, it is only due to the Palestine that this enmity is taking place between Iran and the WEST. Hizbullah and Hamas also don't have good relations now. If Syrian President Basharatul Asad survives, then he will also not be against Israel any more, but he will be more careful about the Opposition which consists of Salafies.
Therefore, no body knows exactly, but it is possible that in future one would see Iran/Iraq/Rest of Sunni Muslims/Secular Muslims standing in the lanes of Western countries against Salafism.
by ys:
Domination of whole world is an absurdity that can't be taken seriously. I'll start believing in it when Saudis and Iranian Ayatollahs start kissing each other butts. In other words, never going to happen.
Yes, it is true that practically it is hard to dominate the world when you also lack the modern technology (i.e. Taliban) and knowledge.
Any how, still there will be a clash, there will be great loss of human life. In Chechen region, they failed, but still it resulted in killings of several thousands of people.
Now what is going to happen in case of clash with whole Salafi World? The result will be many times deadlier and bloodier as compared to Chechan.
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Why is this happening (i.e. why Muslims are turning towards Salafi Islam)?
Firstly, once again, this change towards Salafism is not found in Shia Muslims. Mainly it is Sunni population, which is turning towards Salafism.
There are many reasons for this change.
1. Sunni Traditional Islam VS Salafi Political Islam
Basically Sunni Muslims always followed a Traditions version of religion. But then came Salafies with Political Islam and Jihaad concept. This Jihaad concept attracted a lot of Sunnies.
There is a lot of hatred against CIA and Israel even among normal Muslims (either they are Sunni or Secular Sunni).
Salafies cashed this hatred and they were attracted towards Salafies in name of Jihaad and resistance against the Israel/CIA.
2. Corruption in Muslim Governments
In last decades, the Leaders of almost all Muslim countries were Secular Sunnies. But none of them was a true leader. All these governments were corrupt, they were at mercy of CIA politically. Their economies were weak and hostage at hands of IMF.
So normal people are not satisfied with present system. They are looking for an alternative. And Salafies are promising them "Islamic Caliphate System" as an alternative to the present system and the so called "Evil Western System".
Again this factor is causing a lot of conversion. More are the economic difficulties, more will be the hatred and more of the people will turn towards the alternative "Caliphate System".
3. Saudia (the center of Islam) is Salafi itself
Another big factor is this that Saudia is the center of Islam, and they are themselves Salafies.
More problem occurs while Saudia is a Rich Country. It give a lot of aid to other poor Muslim countries and therefore it has a lot of influence upon all other Muslim Countries. They are also pouring a lot of money in form of thousands of Madrassas (religious schools) and Islamic Universities.
There are many more factors, but these are the main ones.
In my opinion, Sunni world is very non-organized, they have no central leadership, they are not united and thus they have no chance to compete against the Salafies.
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nice review. i have a little more optimistic view. i think islamic radicalism will be contained. once NATO is out of Afghanistan and Taliban takes over it'll be a recluse similar to North Korea. not to that extreme but somewhat similar. powerful neighbors such as China will never allow proliferation.
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Firstly, I would suggest to not to watch the countries Saudia, Turky & Iran, but to concentrate upon the DRIVING FORCES behind these 3 countries.
- Saudia ....... Driving Force is "Salafism"
Turkey ........ Driving Force is "Sunni Islam"
Iran ............. Driving Force is "Shia Islam"
….
Turkey & Iran are not so much Extremists
While majority of population of Turkey is Sunni, and also they follow Secularism (at least their Army), therefore, they are not Extremists. Unfortunately, there is again a rapid change towards Salafism in Turkish population too.
Iran follows the Shia branch of Islam. There population is not turning towards Salafism. ….
I think you're more on target with the second half of your analysis. I'm not convinced that the real underlying driving force of Turkey is Sunni Islam, though it is A force. Islam is an Arab religion foreign to both Turks and Persians. If the tensions between the West and Islam subside, then I believe the Turks and Persians will eventually further develop their own more moderate versions of Islam or largely abandon it. One cannot understand these peoples solely through the Prism of Arab Islam. Especially in Turkey, where the secular and often anti-Islamic segment is strong willed and still somewhat powerful, though a numerical minority. Unfortunately, the West isn't helping them with these endless wars in Islamic states.
Fervent forms of religion are often largely nationalism/tribalism with religious overtones. Once the perceived threats to the state or the people subside, the fervent religion often calms down. Take Ireland as an example. When the Troubles were active and anger and hatred at high pitch, people behaved in fervently religious ways. Now that the Troubles are largely subsided, active religion is in decline and secularism is on the rise. Not long ago, Ireland had a surplus of priests and sent them as missionaries all around the world. Now they don't have enough for their own country and have to import missionaries from Africa.
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Iv seen some of this guys other videos before and turns out hes a "jew" not that it means anything racially speaking. Hes an ashkenazi so hes probably one of them khazars.
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I'm not convinced that the real underlying driving force of Turkey is Sunni Islam, though it is A force.
it is very very real. Erdogan is die-hard muslim follower and muslim principles are above anything else. that was one of the reason for israeli provocation and burning bridges. he longs for days of the Ottoman empire when they dominated large part of the muslim world. that's what he is after. he does not care about Europe. his face is turned to the East. he also would love to take back lands they lost to Russia. he knows it is not possible but the feeling is still bitter.
Iv seen some of this guys other videos before
who are you talking about?
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Iv seen some of this guys other videos before and turns out hes a "jew" not that it means anything racially speaking. Hes an ashkenazi so hes probably one of them khazars.
Again, being a Khazar/Turk is a GOOD thing, worthy of praise. Hurrah for Khazars and all Turks and horse peoples!
it is very very real.
Of course it's real, but it's not the true core underlying driving force of Turkey, which like all peoples is survival of their people. If they think the Christian West is against them, then they will turn to whoever will be their friend, such as other Islamic nations, as would anyone seeking survival. How sad it is that for decades the US has been the friend of Turkey and now a few incendiary words from the Neocons can set some Americans against the Turks, despite the Turks only response being one of peace, fellowship and understanding that these are the heated words of a political campaing.
The Neocons love the radical Islamists, because the radical Islamists promote the Neocon objective of endless war, with the publicly stated short-term objective being hegemony over the entire Middle East. Vote Ron Paul to stop this insanity! Please, don't condone the killing of a single Turk until you have spoken to at least one! Don't let the Neocons turn us against our friends and eventually all mankind.
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the question is about those who follow the talmud, who self identify as "jews". It is a racist religion. Many "jews(turcic-mongol khazars) are talmudists but not All. Many non "jews" are talmudists. The religion centres around the veneration of the "jews" as the master race everyone else is "goyim"(animals/cattle/unclean). They are the racists not myself or ALL khazars
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then they will turn to whoever will be their friend, such as other Islamic nations, as would anyone seeking survival.
they are not looking for friends among Islamic nations. they want to spread their influence over Islamic world. it is a 3-way struggle, Turkey-Iran-Saudi
How sad it is that for decades the US has been the friend of Turkey and now a few incendiary words from the Neocons can set some Americans against the Turks, despite the Turks only response being one of peace, fellowship and understanding that these are the heated words of a political campaing.
Turkey never been a friend of the US and never will. sometimes they team up to address some common interests but that's about it.
despite the Turks only response being one of peace, fellowship and understanding
are you serious??? i'm just laughing
Vote Ron Paul to stop this insanity!
this is not insanity, it is completely normal. it's been like that for the past 5000 years or so and is not ready to change yet. maybe in the next 300 years it might start turning around.
Ron Paul is the insanity and that's why he is not going anywhere except retirement. currently he is getting about 10% of the popular vote. i said before he would get his single digits. i was close. that's the reality.
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I never said there is anything wrong with being a khazar, I am one myself. Also it should be noted that there are very few pure khazars left anymore. After svyatoslav defeated them they scattered all over europe and mixed heavily with the populations of whatever place they settled.
And let us not forget the two facts which make the concept of a jewish race ridiculous apart from the fact that it is nothing more than a religion. 1) a jewish woman can have a child with a non jew and call that child 100 percent jewish. Taking into consideration that miscegenation is very common even where it is strictly prohibited, the fact that it is allowed for jewish women indicates a high level of race mixing occurred. 2) judaism has always been an actively proselytizing religion until maybe recent times and always actively sought converts.
The term anti-semite is also stupid since almost all of the jews occupying israel are Caucasoid europeans and not semites at all. They are the true anti-semites who do to the semitic palestinians exactly what they claim hitler did to the jews.
P.S. The concept of jews of europe being from the middle east and not europe is a concept only very recently adopted by jews. This belief up until around ww2 was strictly the domain of the jew haters who said they should go back to where they came from and leave the true europeans alone. The jews of the time vehemently denied this. This can be evidenced by various medieval and other anti jewish texts.
I also believe that the zionists played a key role in the internment of the jews of germany. Israel would not exist without the holocaust after all and the zionists sacrificed many of their own (who they do not truly care for at all and used for their own ends) to make their racial nationalist state a reality. Holocaust means burnt offering and it was a sacrifice for the creation of israel. For more info on this read Adolf Hitler - Founder of Israel: Israel in War With Jews.
And i agree personman that the talmud contains many terrible things including things allowing the rape of very young children. However it should be noted that almost every religion has things to be disgusted by and this is not exclusive to the talmud. (although it ranks very high up there in religious perversity.)
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Judaism does not equal zionism
Rabbi Weiss Rips the Ideology of Zionism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_ZiVRedU-4#ws)
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trollofthedungeon: I agree with most of what you're saying. 80% of "jews" are ashkenazi...Hitler was also Jewish by hallachic law and was financed by the Rothschild and Warburd banking cartels. Nazism and Communism were creations of these same to foment war among the goyim. A small fraction of 1% of the world's population is this masterrace. How is your retreat going and have you checked out mealworms yet? It seems like a sustainable source and can be dehydrated
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hitler WAS a rothschild. Also zionists dont care about ordinary so called jews like myself. They made sure plenty of them died in germany so that they could take advantage and create their evil state. Im just as poisoned by their system as any of the goyim are. Iv been breathing the chemtrails iv been eating the gm food getting the vaccines just like everyone else. And its not just the synagogue of satan responsible for all this. There are many nexuses of power of which israel is just one including the british crown, the vatican.
havent gotten upstate yet. Will look into mealworms then.
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and i forgot to mention that hitler is not halakhically jewish. His grandmother was a gentile who was a maid in the rothschild manor in which the son was notorious for impregnating the maids. It is very likely that this rothschild was hitlers mystery grandfather.
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do jews believe in the talmud? it seems like a tangleed skein this freemasonic talmudic.issue...
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what about the "goyim" issue...are non-jews 'animals', 'excrement' etc...is there a reliable source to consult?
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Well, "shiksa" means " object of loathing", "impure", or "abomination". That is usually applied to female non-jews who want to marry Jews or, occasionally, male non-Jews who want to marry Jews:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiksa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiksa)
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The goyim issue varies as well as the talmud. The talmud is very large and most jews know nothing about the truly offensive parts or about the policy stated in it towards goyim. I have met those who subscribe to these policies and those who dont.
In regards to the shiksa thing, in true judaism being jewish is not a racial issue. The shiksa is regarded as an abject of loathing due to her not being part of their culture just as the infidel is regarded in islam or the nonbeliever in christ.
All religions claim superiority for their people over others. Itherwise whats the point of joining?
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Also zionists dont care about ordinary so called jews like myself. Im just as poisoned by their system as any of the goyim are.
who are these zionists you are talking about? where are they found in the US? and who are these ordinary jews? and what this their system you are talking about.
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The zionists can be found in groups such as aipac and all over our government. Anyone who supports the government of israel is a zionist and almost every one of our politicians is one. Aipac (american israeli public affairs committee) is the most powerful lobby in america. Our president is a zionist. You dont have to be a jew to be a zionist either. Anyone who puts the interests of Israel above their own nation is definitly a zionist. Almost every israeli american dual citizen in our government is a zionist traitor.
The ordinary "jews" are those who have no allegiance to Israel. I am one of them and there are many others like me in this country as well. Out of all the "jews" I met here id say about 50 percent, maybe a bit more were zionists.
The system I am talking about is the new world which does not belong only to the zionists. They are a large part of this system which also prominently features the vatican and the british crown
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based on my observations all jews i know are zionists. i've never met so called ordinary "jews". i've only heard of them and they are usually called self-hating Jews a la Bobby Fischer.
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What puzzles me more than anything about this thread, is why the Kazar Turks are spoken of in the context of largely negative, complaining posts??? I find the Khazars and their mercenary cavalry, which was reportedly Sarmatian, apparently, to be fascinating and a source of wonder and joy, not complaints. If the Ashkenazi Jews were mostly Kazars (which I would love, but which unfortunately I have not found a lot of evidence for--crap! :( ), it would be cause for celebration, IMHO, not for complaining. One thing that fascinates me about various Turkish peoples is how many similarities there are with their culture and the culture of my wonderful Irish ancestors and relatives. One of the major commonalities is that they are all horse cultures that spent at least some time on the steppes of Eurasia.
Troll says he is a Khazar, and he doesn't seem evil, so Khazars can apparently be good people, right everyone? When people go on and on about "self identified Jews" being Khazars, to me it is high praise of those Jews, which is a refreshing change for the Internet, and a cause for smiles, not frowns.
Surely people should have the right to call themselves whatever they wish and if someone is friendly and polite and wants to be called a Jew or a Khazar or an Israeli, Hebrew, Zionist, Christian, Muslim, Turk, American, and so on, I will try to politely accomodate the wish, if my memory cooperates. :D Why not, after all?
We seem to have multiple experts on Khazars and Jews here, and I find the histories and cultures of both to be interesting, so I would appreciate it if those who have posted about them would kindly share the sources of their bountiful information, so I might learn more about these people. Some have expounded upon them at great length, so surely they must have many sources for me to peruse? Don't be selfish, please share. Thanks!
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First of all I repeat that I am one of the ordinary jews who are completely anti zionist and so are plenty of other jews I know including the rabbi in the video I posted earlier.
I have been called a self hating jew many times. I also do not identify myself as the jewish but respond yes when asked because what they really mean is are you khazar. I am quite proud of the Khazars in fact and do not speak of it negatively at all. The problem that the zionist khazars have with this is that if they are from Khazaria then they are europeans who have converted in the seventh century and therefore have no claim to the land of israel which they conquered and therefore have no right to put the palestinians in open air concernetration camps and kill their children.
The top books I would reccomend on this subject are
The invention of the Jewish People, by Shlomo Sand
and The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler to get you started.
These are two previously very well respected jewish intellectuals who are now smeared as self hating jews to put out this info.
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I guess what bugged me a bit wasn't so much specific comments about Khazars as that every time I've seen Khazars mentioned on the Internet it has been in a negative context of complaints about Jews, Zionists, Israelis, Talmudists, etc. It would be nice to see a positive historical discussion or even just positive comments about them some day.
If no one here is arguing that the Jews/Khazars are inherently bad people, then the major beef here seems to be that Ashkenazi Jews don't descend from a people of Israel and so that makes their conquest of Israel illegitimate, yes? Let's say for the sake of argument that's true, what's the solution? Should all conquerors go back to where they originated from? Should the "Khazars" be expelled from the Levant? If so, where should they go, back to Khazaria, which no longer exists? Most scholars apparently think that the Khazar Turks didn't originate in Khazaria, but conquered it. If that's true should they go back to where they came from before Khazaria?
No one even knows for sure who the Khazars were or where they came from, but let's pretend that everyone eventually agrees that the Khazars were Uyghur Turks and they came from the Tarim Basin in what is now China. Should they be expelled to China? If not expelled, should they be killed or conquered through war? If none of those things, then the other people in the area will need to learn to live with the Khazars, right? Then it all comes down to people figuring out how they're going to live with each other and we are right back where we started from, and this is even apparently where Shlomo Sand, author of The Invention of the Jewish People, is at:
"Sand's book is not a pure work of history. In fact, it has a clearly stated political agenda. From all the sound and the fury you might think that his agenda is to expel all Jews from Israel, or to abolish the Jewish state. It might come as a surprise to some who have not read the book that Sand's goal is to preserve Israel as a democracy with a Jewish character based on a Jewish majority.
Sand points out that modern democracies fall into two categories that emerged in modern Europe: East of the Rhein, the dominant model was that of ethnocracies: countries that were supposed to have a special attachment to a particular ethnos. West of the Rhein the model of pure liberal democracies prevailed: for them the sovereign is simply the totality of its citizens. The clearest case of this model is, of course, the U.S. No one could conceivably argue that the Caucasian conquerors of America had some special historical relation to the land. The U.S. continued to be an immigrant country, and every new citizen had the same right, whatever his or her provenance." http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/shlomo-sand-s-the-invention-of-the-jewish-people-is-a-success-for-israel-1.3247 (http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/shlomo-sand-s-the-invention-of-the-jewish-people-is-a-success-for-israel-1.3247)
As for the question of whether nearly all the Jews are really Khazars, the two sources submitted so far are The Invention of the Jewish People, by Shlomo Sand, and The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler, right? Isn't DNA evidence key in such questions? Here are some recent reports on the matter:
Some writers, notably Arthur Koestler in his 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe, have argued that the Ashkenazis stem from a Turkic tribe in Central Asia called the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 8th century. And historian Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward.
Such notions, however, clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots. In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations. ....
[G]iven the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture."
Tracing the Roots of Jewishness
by Michael Balter on 3 June 2010, 12:46 PM
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/06/tracing-the-roots-of-jewishness.html (http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/06/tracing-the-roots-of-jewishness.html)
(S)cientists report that the Jews of the Diaspora share a set of telltale genetic markers, supporting the traditional belief that Jews scattered around the world have a common ancestry. But various Diaspora populations have their own distinct genetic signatures, shedding light on their origins and history. In addition to the age-old question of whether Jews are simply people who share a religion or are a distinct population, the scientific verdict is settling on the latter. ....
Analysis of Jewish genomes has been yielding fascinating findings for more than a decade. A pioneer in this field, Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona, made the first big splash when he discovered that genetics supports the biblical account of a priestly family, the Cohanim, descended from Aaron, the brother of Moses: one specific genetic marker on the Y chromosome (which is passed on from father to son, as membership in the priestly family would be) is found in 98.5 percent of people who self-identify as Cohanim, he and colleagues reported in a 1997 paper in Nature (the PBS science series Nova did a nice segment on that work, summarized here). The Cohanim DNA has been found in both Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, evidence that it predates the time when the two groups diverged, about 1,000 years ago. DNA can also be used to infer when particular genetic markers appeared, and suggests that the Cohanim emerged about 106 generations ago, making it fall during what is thought to be the period of the exodus from Egypt, and thus Aaron’s lifetime.
The DNA of Abraham’s Children
Jun 2, 2010 8:00 PM EDT
Analysis of Jewish genomes refutes the Khazar claim.
Sharon Begley
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html)
It's looking like the claim that Israeli Jews are nearly all Khazars and have no genetic links to Levantian ancestors is highly questionable at best and unless people want to make war against Israeli Jews, it's irrelevant anyway.
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What needs to be done is that the US needs to stop giving israel billions of dollars per year and doing israels bidding at the expense of our own national welfare. I personally dont care what happens to the israelis but for us to choose sides is wrong. Also almost all modern day Khazars are mixed with the people of whatever European nation they fled to after the defeat at the hands of Svyatoslav. As far as DNA evidence goes I dont put too much thought into that since those guys can make the DNA say whatever they want. While I have seen those israeli studies "proving" that the ashkenazim's common genetic thread is in Israel, the independent studies I have seen "proved" that their common gene is from central Asia. The history points to the central asian theory is the correct one.
I wouldnt believe all of the propaganda they put out about the Jews being from Israel since there is such a powerful political agenda invested in proving that jews have the genetic link to israel.
Here is a website that depicts "khazarian pride".
http://www.khazaria.com/ (http://www.khazaria.com/)
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What needs to be done is that the US needs to stop giving israel billions of dollars per year and doing israels bidding at the expense of our own national welfare.
you should start by calling your senator and congressman and ask them why they are giving aid to Israel. while you are at it ask about aid to Egypt and others. let us know what they say.
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I dont need to ask. Anyone who opposes the aid to israel is defamed as an antisemite by the anti defamation league as well as our zionist run mainstream media. If you want more insight into why we give them aid then just peruse the website of our nations most rich and powerful lobby. http://www.aipac.org/ (http://www.aipac.org/)
I have no interest in wasting my time talking to my corrupt senators. Its obvious that money is the reason our politicians do this and when you have the most powerful lobby in America, you will get what you want.
The only answers I would get from them would be excuses listed on the aipac website.
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What needs to be done is that the US needs to stop giving israel billions of dollars per year and doing israels bidding at the expense of our own national welfare.
Why stop there? I support cutting off most foreign aid and military interventions, regardless of who the peoples are descended from or where they originated.
I personally dont care what happens to the israelis but for us to choose sides is wrong.
I do think our government should more vocally express support for Palestinian self determination. Some would call that choosing sides.
Also almost all modern day Khazars are mixed with the people of whatever European nation they fled to after the defeat at the hands of Svyatoslav.
So then do you agree with the majority of the scientists who think that the Ashkenazi Jews are likely not of mostly Khazar ancestry?
As far as DNA evidence goes I dont put too much thought into that since those guys can make the DNA say whatever they want.
And a book author just making claims cannot? Besides, what's to stop the proponents of the Khazar claims from doing their own DNA tests, including you? It's not that expensive. I did one myself. Have you done one? If you find you have a Turkish haplogroup and no Jewish haplogroup, that would lend some support to the Khazar hypothesis, at least in your case. I would trust you to be honest about your answer.
While I have seen those israeli studies "proving" that the ashkenazim's common genetic thread is in Israel, the independent studies I have seen "proved" that their common gene is from central Asia.
Wonderful! Please share the study with us.
Here is a website that depicts "khazarian pride".
http://www.khazaria.com/ (http://www.khazaria.com/)
Neato! Thanks!
Ah, crumb. That site you linked to reports that there are just "traces" of Khazar ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews (http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html (http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html)), and it reports this:
- The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.
- Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European but the Ashkenazic variant comes from somewhere in Asia, probably Central Asia).
They also report that the Khazars may have contributed some of the R1a1 haplogroup and the CCR5-D32 allele to Ashkenazim.
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I'm pretty disapointed by anti-semitic behavior.
It's the same principle with religions that practice Christianity. They say Jews did it. Jews this, jews that.
They're just competitive and peaceful. It's unfortunate that in Nazi-Germany they weren't prepared for violence over... Well my opinion is it's food related. They eat bad, they think worse. People put blame where ever the peaceful are.
I'm sure Jews aren't supportive of American tactics to forcefully get the consititution adapted world wide.
But more or less, the American constitution makes sense. Going global with a militarized system, then militarizing the police in America... Well that's just plain wrong.
Most people are Anti-America world wide. Personally I don't blame them. America has tried to forcefully pull slick strategies to get their military world wide.
More less, Jews are actually peaceful people.
It's rediculous that anyone can blame them for anything.
The interesting thing is my Jewish friends here in the U.S. have actually adopted Atheism. More or less, what I am. It's actually great cause then you fit in with every religion and ethnicity.
Untill of course they ask you to pull triggers and drop bombs to steal from other nations. Which is, more or less what America's been up to.
It's a common belief in the States that America dropped the twin towers to steal gas from those nations.
Americans are pretty much ready for anything. American politics isn't comprehendable to the average person. Mainly because nothing they do makes sense.
America's gone bankrupt printing money to pay bills, so now are money is worth nothing. Not just that, but even the military is pretty much ready to let the politicians go world wide killing anyone they want.
Americans are tired of being government's piggies. Believing anything government can get them to believe.
The other day I saw a Seals commercial of planes, boats, people with guns delivering "aid" to those countries. How dumb are Americans to buy that nonsense.
If you come to me with food, water, or anything else. The last thing you need is guns, tanks, and bombs to deliver it to me.
It's all a show they put on so Americans can stay patriotic while continuing to buy into their war machine.
More or less, it's why most Americans are pro Ron Paul. Except the ones watching the media on TV lie about who's winning and who's losing.
If you actually youtube Ron Paul, he actually called exactly what would happen. He's been completely accurate.
Currently everyone in the military is voting Ron Paul (according to what I've been told). I think most of America has realized that yeah....
They were right to leave Great Britain and enforce the constitution. But they're wrong to build horrible systems -
Like food industry - medical system.
Banking - government
Church and state unification has really messed things up.
America's a mess. Politics has ruined everything.
It hasn't been a country for the people by the people for the longest time.
It's now if government wants something, they go worldwide where ever it is and they take it.
Politicians get crazy good health care plans. The lower class is stuck with medicaid.
Politicians make billions in illigitemate companies, mainly pharma and the food biz.
Then keep it going by supressing the right ways of eating, just like Aajonous is facing legal troubles.
They keep people dumb by feeding em bad, then lying to them consistently. Actually if you listen to Bob Marley's albums, not just the hits.
He called it exactly. At the end of his life he didn't even seek to heal himself. He basically was just like, ef this I'd rather be dead than keep dealing with humans.
Any way, much love to everyone world wide. Keep spreading the word about how we eat so we can end the chaos through proper nutrition. I'm sure the problem with humans is dietary, there's no question.
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I'm pretty disapointed by anti-sematic behavior.
It's the same principle with religions that practice Christianity. They say Jews did it. Jews this, jews that.
Yeah, it's so easy to blame things on some convenient scapegoat that's too small a minority to fight back. Ever notice how people rarely conspiracy theories blaming the most powerful peoples like the Protestant Aryans? Because those people have the power to fight back. Not that I have anything against Protestant Aryans, it's just that most folks have the sense not to fuck with them other than to tease them or whine about them a little, but not create elaborate conspiracy theories about them.
The interesting thing is my Jewish friends here in the U.S. have actually adopted Athiesm.
Yes, some of mine have as well, and the ones who are still religious are not anti-American or pro war at all. Very peaceful people. The complete opposite of what has been portrayed here. Same goes for my Muslim friends. The sad thing is that the Republican party seems hell bent on making war on the Persian people who love Americans and are just not happy with the stupid foreign policy of our government.
It's a common belief in the States that America dropped the twin towers to steal gas from those nations.
Well you lose me there. I generally despise conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories are the unthinking approach to nearly everything. Instead of using their brains, so many people just latch onto whatever the latest popular conspiracy theory on the Internet is. It's a lazy-man's approach.
It's all a show they put on so Americans can stay patriotic while continuing to buy into their war machine.
It's rather reminiscent of the Roman Empire in its declining days. Rising budget deficits and stagnating economy, with military adventures attempted to increase government popularity and try to get war booty, ending in eventual failure.
More or less, it's why most Americans are pro Ron Paul.
If only that were the case. Unfortunately, he's a voice crying in the Wilderness, largely ignored.
Except the ones watching the media on TV lie about who's winning and who's losing.
Most Americans watch TV, unfortunately. I rarely do.
If you actually youtube Ron Paul, he actually called exactly what would happen. He's been completely accurate.
Yeah, that's why it's so puzzling why the establishment thinks they can get away with calling him crazy. Unfortunately, it seems to be the case when any prophet makes accurate predictions that the powers that be call him crazy and do the opposite of what he recommends.
Currently everyone in the military is voting Ron Paul (according to what I've been told).
Many are, yeah, because they're fed up with having to do 3 or 4 or more tours of duty in lands where they people don't fucking want them there. It's insane.
I think most of America has realized that yeah....
How I wish that were true.
They were right to leave Great Britain and enforce the constituion. But they're wrong to build horrible systems -
Like food industry - medical system.
Banking - government
Amen to that. Perhaps the greatest contribution of Christianity and Islam was to declare all debt evil. It was a historical catastrophe when the Christian world abandoned its opposition to usury and instead embraced it.
"Despite its Judaic roots, the critique of usury was most ferverently taken up as a cause by the institutions of the Christian Church where the debate prevailed with great intensity for well over a thousand years" http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/1998_usury.htm (http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/1998_usury.htm)
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Why stop there? I support cutting off most foreign aid and military interventions, regardless of who the peoples are descended from or where they originated.
I do think our government should more vocally express support for Palestinian self determination. Some would call that choosing sides.
So then do you agree with the majority of the scientists who think that the Ashkenazi Jews are likely not of mostly Khazar ancestry?
And a book author just making claims cannot? Besides, what's to stop the proponents of the Khazar claims from doing their own DNA tests, including you? It's not that expensive. I did one myself. Have you done one? If you find you have a Turkish haplogroup and no Jewish haplogroup, that would lend some support to the Khazar hypothesis, at least in your case. I would trust you to be honest about your answer.
Wonderful! Please share the study with us.
Neato! Thanks!
Ah, crumb. That site you linked to reports that there are just "traces" of Khazar ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews (http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html (http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html)), and it reports this:They also report that the Khazars may have contributed some of the R1a1 haplogroup and the CCR5-D32 allele to Ashkenazim.
Yes we should cut of all military aid to everywhere.
Perhhaps our government should express support for palestine but it doesnt realy matter. If we stop sending Israel money and stop backing them up whenever they ask then theres no way they will survive for long.
The original khazars are mostly mixed with the natives of wherever they went after defeat by svyatoslav. I believe that most of their DNA is from wherever they went after. It has been shown however that even though they are extremely mixed, ashkenazi jews have a genetic marker showing a common heritage in central asia, not the middle east.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/science/27GENE.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/science/27GENE.html)
over 50 percent have this central asian marker according to this study which i found through the khazaria website. You should look on it more as there is varying info.
Studies such as this combined with my knowldge of history and politics come together to lead my to my conclusions about the khazars. It is never just one thing.
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also the term anti semite makes no sense since the ashkenazi jews arent semites. You can tell just by looking t them that it is a european and not a semite.
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More less, Jews are actually peaceful people.
It is reasonable to be against sweeping negative statements such as "All Jews are as bad as the Zionists". It is also reasonable to condemn positive sweeping statements that make one type of ethnic group seem above any and all reproach, like you did here. As for Jews being a naturally "peaceful" people, I have read the Bible, and the Old Testament is all about Jews happily committing genocide because it was considered "God's Law", such as in the Canaanite genocide, or even massacring their own people such as the Ephraim(re "shibboleth"). I have read many other mythologies, religious-based or otherwise, and they all had elements of evil in them, but the Old Testament was the worst example thereof. Now, one can argue as to whether the Bible is historical, semi-historical or just a mythical representation of genuine Jewish beliefs, but, in the real world, we have individuals like the German Jew Fritz Haber who invented poison-gas(his wife committed suicide as a result), then there was Edward Teller, the inspiration for "Dr Strangelove", not to mention Beria/Trotsky/Ilya Ehrenburg/Kaganovich/Lenin, among many others, all of which, barring Teller, committed or incited mass-murder and were anything but peaceful. If we look at entities rather than individuals, then one only has to look at the 6 or so wars started by Israel since its independence(depends on what one terms a war, as wikipedia also classifies some other minor conflicts as "wars" which I disagree with re its conclusion). And my occasional forays on other forums have led to me encountering some rather dodgy, bigoted attacks on Islam and Arabs in general by American Jewish citizens, which were, interestingly, reminiscent of similiar behaviour by Nazis in pre-war Germany, so "atheism" is likely not on the rise in that community, indeed in Israel, at least, it's the religious(Orthodox) who are having the most children. If you want to depict Jews as being a peaceful people, rather than focusing solely on America and Israel, you would have a better position in your favour by citing such famous pacifistic Jews as Bruno Kreisky, Baruch Spinoza, Jesus(if you don't believe his parents were goys as Zionists do) and Noam Chomsky to name a few. All these people were anti-Zionists, incidentally.
Any way, much love to everyone world wide. Keep spreading the word about how we eat so we can end the chaos through proper nutrition. I'm sure the problem with humans is dietary, there's no question.
Proper nutrition has little or no basis in changing peoples' viewpoints. I wish it could be possible for a raw, palaeolithic diet to make people vote for increasing funds for spaceflight or for not starting endless foreign wars, but it's a pipe-dream.
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Yeah, it's so easy to blame things on some convenient scapegoat that's too small a minority to fight back. Ever notice how people rarely conspiracy theories blaming the most powerful peoples like the Protestant Aryans? Because those people have the power to fight back. Not that I have anything against Protestant Aryans, it's just that most folks have the sense not to fuck with them other than to tease them or whine about them a little, but not create elaborate conspiracy theories about them.
This is the biggest, most embarassing load of b*ll I have ever heard of. If you look at Scheuer's example and that of many others, criticising Israel is very dangerous to one's career. Scheuer got banned from a job at a prestigious organisation(the Jamestown Foundation) because of his anti-Zionist views. And then there was the vehement attack on Meersheimer's paper, thus proving its very own premise:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy#Reaction_to_the_reception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy#Reaction_to_the_reception)
Amen to that.
The American War of Independence was a disaster, started for cynical reasons by corrupt politicians and the like, and had nothing to do with freedom or self-determination, judging from one book I once read by a realistic American citizen. You would all have been in a better position within the British Empire, a wonderful institution. Canada would also have been 100% free from the threat of a US invasion,(same with Cuba/Phillipines later on). You would also have been spared the American Civil War as a result. *This is an admittedly biased viewpoint from a British citizen, but has a point*.
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I agree with everything except that America would have been better off without independence. The brief period of freedom we enjoyed here after that is the reason why we became the richest most powerful nation on earth.
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This is the biggest, most embarassing load of b*ll I have ever heard of. If you look at Scheuer's example...
That's not a conspiracy theory about all Protestant Aryans/Europeans, which is what I meant, like "the Jews were behind 911" or the blood libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel)). Do you have examples of that where someone says "the Protestants were behind 911," or "Protestants murder children to get their blood" or some such, not just one individual victim?
Anti-Jewish/Ashkenazi conspiracy theories predate the state of Israel. For example, because of the blood libel conspiracy, all Jews were reportedly expelled from England in 1290 by the King of your beloved British Empire and not allowed to return until 1656. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/history/350.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/history/350.shtml)). So focusing only on the current ascendant state of Israel and the power that its Christian Neocon and Evangelical American backers give it ignores the fact that the roots of the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories go back to times when Jews (meaning people described by themselves and/or by their detractors as "Jews", which is what I mean whenever I use the term) did not even have a state and the USA did not yet exist.
There are some anti-Catholic conspiracy theories (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism)), but they tend to become a factor only in nations or regions where Catholics are at a disadvantage in either numbers or power, as with the Jews. The closest thing I've seen to a conspiracy theory against Protestants is the anti-Masonry conspiracy theories. However, in that case it's only a tiny, largely elite minority of Protestants that is targeted, again as with the Jews, and some conspiracy theorists have even claimed that Jews were behind Free Masonry ( http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Evil_Jew_(antisemitic_stereotypes) (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Evil_Jew_(antisemitic_stereotypes)) ). I don't recall seeing a popular conspiracy theory which involved all or most Protestants in a nation in which Protestants were a large, powerful element, such as the USA or Great Britain since Queen Elizabeth. Do you?
the British Empire, a wonderful institution.
If empire is OK, then you should have no quarrel with the Israelis on at least their imperial domination of the Palestinians, nor with the current American military-economic empire. How do you square your pro-imperial feelings with support for Ron Paul, the most anti-imperial of all the candidates for US President?
It was your British Empire which gave a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, what think you of that? I'm also curious what you think of Cromwell, who deposed the monarchy and let Jews back into England?
Besides, whining on and on about the Jews and their supposed enormous power, or in the case of some here and elsewhere, arguing that they are descended from Khazars, gets the Palestinians no closer to self determination and does little to end the current policy of endless war of both parties in US politics. If anything, this stuff turns rational people off and is used by the Neocons to portray all supporters of Ron Paul and critics of US foreign policy as "anti-semitic" and irrational. In other words, you and others making these sorts of arguments are unintentionally playing right into their hands. Sometimes the best of intentions can lead to disastrous consequences.
One of the ironies about the conspiracy theories that claim that "the Jews" have enormous, sometimes even supernatural, power, is that it means that fighting them is pretty much futile, leaving one to wonder why the proponents even bother to waste their time debating about it. Even Ahmadinejad does not think that the Zionists have the power that the conspiracy theorists claim:
Ahmadinejad says Israel will not dare attack Iran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmG3is-SHoE#ws)(If anything, he goes too far in the other direction of underestimating the power of a US-backed Israeli government.)
I agree with everything except that America would have been better off without independence. The brief period of freedom we enjoyed here after that is the reason why we became the richest most powerful nation on earth.
Good point. I also do not wish for the USA to be brought back under a British yoke. I'd like us to keep our independence and self determination and I'd like to see the Palestinians get theirs, not be kept under an Israeli yoke or put back under a British one.
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That's not a conspiracy theory about all Protestant Aryans/Europeans, which is what I meant, like "the Jews were behind 911" or the blood libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel)). Do you have examples of that where someone says "the Protestants were behind 911," or "Protestants murder children to get their blood" or some such, not just one individual victim?
The reason why there are no current anti-Protestant conspiracy theories in the US is simply that no one would remotely believe them. For example, the Jews are the wealthiest ethnic group in the US, also forming a bit less than half of the richest of all Americans, despite their being less numerous than WASPs.
Re the past anti-Jewish conspiracy theories:- The reason for them was the Jewish practice of usury/moneylending, a practice which Jesus, to his credit, despised.
I don't recall seeing a popular conspiracy theory which involved all or most Protestants in a nation in which Protestants were a large, powerful element, such as the USA or Great Britain since Queen Elizabeth. Do you?
There have been plenty, such as found in the Counter-Reformation, and the Portadown Massacre, re the fake "papal conspiracy" and http://www.moyak.com/papers/popish-plot-england.html (http://www.moyak.com/papers/popish-plot-england.html) . Please read up on your history, in future. If empire is OK, then you should have no quarrel with the Israelis on at least their imperial domination of the Palestinians, nor with the current American military-economic empire. How do you square your pro-imperial feelings with support for Ron Paul, the most anti-imperial of all the candidates for US President?
Easily. The British Empire had a rather better record re human rights etc. than the American or Israeli imperialists have ever achieved, on an overall basis. Besides, it's also a question of my cultural/genetic inheritance. I have no problem with a Celtic or British/English or Austrian/Czech/Slovenian empire, I just am not fond of empires from other regions.
It was your British Empire which gave a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, what think you of that? I'm also curious what you think of Cromwell, who deposed the monarchy and let Jews back into England?
Giving a baronetcy to someone does not, per se, mean that that contributed to the latter doing any form of future wrongdoing(perhaps the baronetcy was awarded in return for political donations?). Very interesting way they got rich at the start(I believe the first generation of brothers set up in various European financial centres and had a very efficient communications network which helped keep them abreast of economic developments) - trouble is that they wanted to stay wealthy as a family which meant a lot of inbreeding(cousin/cousin marriages, not at all healthy).
Hmm, Cromwell, a bizarre extremist Puritan was an anti-monarchist, though a competent soldier. The Puritans under his rule were a bunch of quasi-Islamic extremists, treating women like dirt etc.:-
"One of the main beliefs of the Puritans was that if you worked hard, you would get to Heaven. Pointless enjoyment was frowned upon. Cromwell shut many inns and the theatres were all closed down. Most sports were banned. Boys caught playing football on a Sunday could be whipped as a punishment. Swearing was punished by a fine, though those who kept swearing could be sent to prison." and "Cromwell believed that women and girls should dress in a proper manner. Make-up was banned. Puritan leaders and soldiers would roam the streets of towns and scrub off any make-up found on unsuspecting women. Too colourful dresses were banned. A Puritan lady wore a long black dress that covered her almost from neck to toes. She wore a white apron and her hair was bunched up behind a white head-dress. Puritan men wore black clothes and short hair."
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/cromwell_england.htm (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/cromwell_england.htm)
My own grudge against Oliver Cromwell was always that he had a rabid hatred for Irish Catholics. Since my ancestors were the Irish "Wild Geese" who were persecuted during Cromwell's time and who were later exiled, I, understandably, have a rather dim view of him. Other than that, I concede he was a brilliant soldier. I was amazed to think that anyone could possibly be in favour of Oliver Cromwell, given his dire record(as seen above), but I should have remembered that the US was first colonised by Puritans in the MayFlower l). Christ, why oh why, didn't we just execute those sickos, at the time, instead of just exiling them! ;) Who knows, such actions might have prevented the dominance of the Religious Right in the US in modern times?
Besides, whining on and on about the Jews and their supposed enormous power, or in the case of some here and elsewhere, arguing that they are descended from Khazars, gets the Palestinians no closer to self determination and does little to end the current policy of endless war of both parties in US politics.
I never once believed in this "Khazar" nonsense. It's enough for me to see that there is current DNA evidence to counter the Khazar claim, among other reasons.
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The reason why there are no current anti-Protestant conspiracy theories in the US is simply that no one would remotely believe them. For example, the Jews are the wealthiest ethnic group in the US, also forming a bit less than half of the richest of all Americans, despite their being less numerous than WASPs.
But when you add up the wealth of the far more numerous WASPs, wouldn't it surpass the combined wealth of the Jews, and if you don't artificially restrict Protestants to Anglo Saxons, wouldn't the disparity tilt still farther towards Protestants, and if you add in the other Christians, wouldn't it become enormous? And again, if Zionist Jews controlled as much of the wealth and power as you seem to believe, wouldn't it be futile to oppose them, though it might be ethical? I can sympathize with someone fighting what they see as an ethical lost cause, I just wish conspiracy theories and anger at whole groups of people (including many innocent ordinary folk who know little of banking or foreign policy intrigue) weren't intertwined in it.
Re the past anti-Jewish conspiracy theories:- The reason for them was the Jewish practice of usury/moneylending , a practice which Jesus, to his credit, despised.
That was part of it and it was an ironic result of the policies of Christian Medieval governments, as finance was one of the few prosperous careers that was left open to Jews during the Middle Ages, given the prohibition on Christians (it should have been a prohibition on everyone, in my view). We can despise usury without hating all Jews, especially since Christians have since abandoned the prohibition against usury and many have embraced usury (regrettably).
Jesus (Yeshua) also supposedly said, per the Bible:
"first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Christian and secular British and American condemnation of Jews re: usury would have more cogency if Christianity and the UK and US had again prohibited, or were working to prohibit, usury.
There have been plenty, such as found in the Counter-Reformation, and the Portadown Massacre, re the fake "papal conspiracy"
Again, the papal conspiracies tended to thrive in nations and regions where Protestants had the upper hand, thus serving as examples that support what I've been talking about. The Counter-Reformation and the Portadown Massacre weren't conspiracy theories. There just aren't many good examples that match the character of the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. The Freemason example comes much closer than those you gave, and even it involves just a small portion of Protestantism, rather than all of Protestantism or Christianity in the way that Jews are often all thrown together as the target of anger and implicated in the conspiracy theories.
I have no problem with a Celtic or British/English or Austrian/Czech/Slovenian empire
I suspect you would if they conquered your country. Few people mind when their own country conquers and rules others, its when the reverse happens that they tend to be not so keen on empire.
Giving a baronetcy to someone does not, per se, mean that that contributed to the latter doing any form of future wrongdoing
Still, you don't think they should have given a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, do you, given your views? After all, the Rothschilds are largely regarded amongst the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists as the worst of the worst.
My own grudge against Oliver Cromwell was always that he had a rabid hatred for Irish Catholics. Since my ancestors were the Irish "Wild Geese" who were persecuted during Cromwell's time and who were later exiled, I, understandably, have a rather dim view of him. Other than that, I concede he was a brilliant soldier.
I had a feeling we'd agree on Cromwell. I was brought up to see him as a villain and still also have a dim view of him, but after reading historical accounts, it does look to me that he was a brilliant military strategist.
I was amazed to think that anyone could possibly be in favour of Oliver Cromwell, given his dire record(as seen above), but I should have remembered that the US was first colonised by Puritans in the MayFlower .
Interesting. I didn't realize that there was a significant pro-Cromwell element in the US. Who are they? I know that the rabidly pro-Cromwell Ian Paisley recently came to the USA, but I doubt that most Americans even know who Cromwell was.
I never once believed in this "Khazar" nonsense. It's enough for me to see that there is current DNA evidence to counter the Khazar claim, among other reasons.
You deserve credit for giving the DNA evidence more credence than the conspiracy theories on that. I didn't mean to implicate you in that. I was expressing a broader point about how this thread and the conspiracy theories in general have been largely counterproductive to the aims of the proponents, which is why I took care to state "in the case of some here and elsewhere," but thanks for clearly stating your view on that. I would nuance it a bit myself to say that there is some evidence for some possible Khazar ancestry among Ashkenazis, but much less than what the conspiracy theorists claim. This matches the historical record, which says that just a small elite of Khazars converted to Judaism, not all people in the Khazar empire, nor even all ethnic Turks in the Khazar empire. Of course, I'm open to whatever future DNA evidence may show and actually would find it pretty neat if it turned out that there was more of a Khazar component in Ashkenazi DNA.
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As to the validity of "The Jewish Conspiracy" I have heard that many contend the "jews" are simply a foil or straw man created to be burned by Freemasons. Who can ever know what "the turth" is.....?
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But when you add up the wealth of the far more numerous WASPs, wouldn't it surpass the combined wealth of the Jews, and if you don't artificially restrict Protestants to Anglo Saxons, wouldn't the disparity tilt still farther towards Protestants, and if you add in the other Christians, wouldn't it become enormous? And again, if Zionist Jews controlled as much of the wealth and power as you seem to believe, wouldn't it be futile to oppose them, though it might be ethical? I can sympathize with someone fighting what they see as an ethical lost cause, I just wish conspiracy theories and anger at whole groups of people (including many innocent ordinary folk who know little of banking or foreign policy intrigue) weren't intertwined in it.
This is pure b*ll again. First of all, Christians are not a monolithic bunch. Secondly, one doesn't need to control all the wealth in order to have political control. Look at the Alawite community in Syria which has agreements with many rich Sunni businessmen, but which, ultimately, is at the top of Syrian society.
That was part of it and it was an ironic result of the policies of Christian Medieval governments, as finance was one of the few prosperous careers that was left open to Jews during the Middle Ages, given the prohibition on Christians (it should have been a prohibition on everyone, in my view). We can despise usury without hating all Jews, especially since Christians have since abandoned the prohibition against usury and many have embraced usury (regrettably).
Given all the pogroms, it does look as though it wasn't so much usury that was practised, but loan-sharking. Understandable, I suppose, since there was no competition.
Again, the papal conspiracies tended to thrive in nations and regions where Protestants had the upper hand, thus serving as examples that support what I've been talking about. The Counter-Reformation and the Portadown Massacre weren't conspiracy theories. There just aren't many good examples that match the character of the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. The Freemason example comes much closer than those you gave, and even it involves just a small portion of Protestantism, rather than all of Protestantism or Christianity in the way that Jews are often all thrown together as the target of anger and implicated in the conspiracy theories.
Pure attempt at diversion again on your part. I'm sorry I fell into it. Actually, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories about Catholics in the past, and even various Christian sects had all sorts of stuff written about them which may have been dodgy(or not). As far as conspiracy theories go, some are correct, some are partially correct, some are not at all, it all depends on the evidence provided over the years. Only a very blind fool could ever state that all conspiracy theories were false. As regards excessive Israeli influence in the US, that is not a conspiracy theory, anyway, but a fact, since there are already plenty of official reports with solid data behind them on the subject, such as this one in the mainstream media:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy)
I suspect you would if they conquered your country. Few people mind when their own country conquers and rules others, its when the reverse happens that they tend to be not so keen on empire.
No, I'm descended from people in those countries. It wouldn't be an issue. Still, you don't think they should have given a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, do you, given your views? After all, the Rothschilds are largely regarded amongst the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists as the worst of the worst.
All noble titles are first given due to money being handed over or political favours being given in the past, so nobody should be a noble. I dislike the whole concept. I prefer a flexible aristocracy based on Christopher Anvil's short story "Philosopher's Stone":-
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=8496 (http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=8496)
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If we stop sending Israel money and stop backing them up whenever they ask then theres no way they will survive for long.
That is not a selling point to me. I support Palestinian self determination but I do not wish for the Israeli people to be destroyed and I hope you don't either.
The original khazars are mostly mixed with the natives of wherever they went after defeat by svyatoslav. I believe that most of their DNA is from wherever they went after. It has been shown however that even though they are extremely mixed, ashkenazi jews have a genetic marker showing a common heritage in central asia, not the middle east.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/science/27GENE.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/science/27GENE.html)
over 50 percent have this central asian marker according to this study which i found through the khazaria website.
The 50+ percent was regarding Levites only. Even that 2003 Hammer et al study conceded that, "neither the NRY haplogroup composition of the majority of Ashkenazi Jews nor the microsatellite haplotype composition of the R1a1 haplogroup within Ashkenazi Levites is consistent with a major Khazar or other European origin" (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/400971.pdf (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/400971.pdf)) and the remaining hope for Khazar ancestry was "one cannot rule out the important contribution of a single or a few founders among contemporary Ashkenazi Levites," with one of the Ashkenazi haplogroups, R1a1, being speculated upon as possibly coming from a Khazar ancestor(s). Plus, even these study authors did not dispute the evidence finding Ashkenazi and Sephardic Cohanim and Israelites to share a genetic signature originating in the Middle East ~ 2000 years ago. They instead only speculated that the descendants of Levites might have some Khazar ancestry.
Also, doesn't it give you any pause that even the authors of the Khazaria website you point to as evidence expressed a different conclusion than what you have been expressing, which I shared in this earlier post: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/total-proof-that-usa-is-a-lapdog-of-israel/msg88420/#msg88420 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/total-proof-that-usa-is-a-lapdog-of-israel/msg88420/#msg88420) ?
Besides, if a Khazar link of any size is eventually confirmed it won't change the minds of Zionists in the slightest (see http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_issues.htm (http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_issues.htm)), and I doubt that it would change most Palestinians' minds about anything. So it's more of a question of interest for Turkish and Jewish history than of political relevance.
If the Jews were mainly Khazars, one nice side effect would be that it would make reported statements by Hitler about the Jews as a single degenerate Semitic race of people who had murdered a Roman Jesus even more ridiculous, which may be why David Duke has argued vehemently against the Khazar claims.
Here's an interesting recent liberal Jewish counterpoint to the militant wing of Jewish and Israeli politics:
"No First Strike Against Iran" Says NYT Ad
Rabbi Michael Lerner: Obama is wrong to reject a policy of containment
March 14, 2012
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=8083 (http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=8083)
... "No, Mr. Netanyahu, No, President Obama: NO war in Iran and NO first strike!"
Actually, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories about Catholics in the past,
Of course, and I was the first to point out the anti-Catholic conspiracies, and you apparently missed my point that they support what I've been saying:There are some anti-Catholic conspiracy theories (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism)), but they tend to become a factor only in nations or regions where Catholics are at a disadvantage in either numbers or power, as with the Jews.
Again, the papal conspiracies tended to thrive in nations and regions where Protestants had the upper hand, thus serving as examples that support what I've been talking about.
Only a very blind fool could ever state that all conspiracy theories were false.
Which I never did. This is the umpteenth straw man you've created.
All noble titles are first given due to money being handed over or political favours being given in the past, so nobody should be a noble. I dislike the whole concept. I prefer a flexible aristocracy based on Christopher Anvil's short story "Philosopher's Stone":-
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=8496 (http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=8496)
So then that's apparently one aspect of the British Empire you don't care for?
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I support a meritocracy, which has never existed even now. As regards anti-Jewish/anti-Zionist conspiracies, I assure you that they exist aplenty in areas with Jews in a majority, such as Israel, which, after all, also includes many Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians in the West Bank. So your argument falls apart.
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That is not a selling point to me. I support Palestinian self determination but I do not wish for the Israeli people to be destroyed and I hope you don't either.
He didn't mean that they would be destroyed, just that they would have to be a State that combined the Palestinians with the Israelis as equal citizens. It's like when Ahmadinejad stated that the Israeli "regime" would be destroyed, not all the citizens per se.
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What about freemasonry?
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As regards anti-Jewish/anti-Zionist conspiracies, I assure you that they exist aplenty in areas with Jews in a majority
Good grief, I didn't say they don't exist, I said they aren't much of a factor. I don't see any pogroms against Jews in Israel, for example, and I don't sense that such theories are popular there with the Jewish majority. It tends to be those who are weaker that the pogroms are carried out against and it's much easier to make conspiracy theories popular when they target a hated minority, even an elite minority, than a major part of the population, and it's much easier to act effectively on the theories when the target isn't more powerful (so, for example, it would have been difficult to accomplish anything with a conspiracy theory about a white apartheid government during the early days of apartheid, because they had most of the power, though it's possible there could have been some conspiracy theories about them).
He didn't mean that they would be destroyed, just that they would have to be a State that combined the Palestinians with the Israelis as equal citizens. It's like when Ahmadinejad stated that the Israeli "regime" would be destroyed, not all the citizens per se.
That's good, I could condone something like that, or perhaps a two-state solution, or whatever peaceful solution they could work out.
What about freemasonry?
Yeah, I mentioned that's the closest example to a conspiracy theory about all Protestants I could come up with, but it doesn't quite match, because it's only about a small elite minority of them, whereas the conspiracy theories about Jews, such as the blood libel, often smear them all. It does match the case when people only claim that a small elite of Jews are actually behind the conspiracy. So conspiracy theories about powerful militant Zionists as a small elite not representative of all Jews or all Ashkenazim would match.
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Good grief, I didn't say they don't exist, I said they aren't much of a factor. I don't see any pogroms against Jews in Israel, for example, and I don't sense that such theories are popular there with the Jewish majority. It tends to be those who are weaker that the pogroms are carried out against and it's much easier to make conspiracy theories popular when they target a hated minority, even an elite minority, than a major part of the population, and it's much easier to act effectively on the theories when the target isn't more powerful (so, for example, it would have been difficult to accomplish anything with a conspiracy theory about a white apartheid government during the early days of apartheid, because they had most of the power, though it's possible there could have been some conspiracy theories about them).
I am truly amazed at your lack of integrity and village-idiot-liberalism - you are no genuine Libertarian. The simple fact that many anti-Jewish conspiracy theories exist in Israel and the West Bank proves my point. And, further to my point, there are indeed many pogroms/ethnic cleanses by Israeli Jews (a majority) against Arab-Palestinian settlers in the West Bank, not to mention more subtle so-called "legal" successes aimed at depriving the Israeli Arabs within Israel proper from having any real rights. I have to admit you are a total scumbag in that you have no real morality whatsoever.
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I am truly amazed at your lack of integrity and village-idiot-liberalism - you are no genuine Libertarian.
For the last time, I never claimed to be a Libertarian, I said I was libertarian-leaning, just as you said you're not a libertarian but are sympathetic to Ron Paul. Why is that so hard for you of all people to understand?
The simple fact that many anti-Jewish conspiracy theories exist in Israel and the West Bank proves my point.
Again, I never said they don't exist, apparently you refuse to even acknowledge the point I was trying to make and instead prefer to rant on against the imaginary straw man you've created.
And, further to my point, there are indeed many pogroms/ethnic cleanses by Israeli Jews (a majority) against Arab-Palestinian
I meant the opposite, pogroms against Israeli Jews. Pogroms against the weaker Palestinians only makes my point--thank you for making my point yet again.
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For the last time, I never claimed to be a Libertarian, I said I was libertarian-leaning, just as you said you're not a libertarian but are sympathetic to Ron Paul. Why is that so hard for you of all people to understand?
I am actually an individualist anarchist which is very close to Libertarianism(rightwing that is). I worship chaos more than most but have at least some integrity in that I support most of RP's views. You are just a hypocrite. Please, in future, just admit to who you really would vote for, such as Obama or Romney or worse.Again, I never said they don't exist, apparently you refuse to even acknowledge the point I was trying to make and instead prefer to rant on against the imaginary straw man you've created.
Your point was bankrupt and contradicted my own facts, so your point was debunked completely.I meant the opposite, pogroms against Israeli Jews. Pogroms against the weaker Palestinians only makes my point--thank you for making my point yet again.
You retarded moron! You can't win against my points, so arbitrarily change your stance as soon as I debunk it. You pathetic hypocrite! Amusingly, there is very bad treatment of Jews even in Israel, at least as regards those Jews who flout Zionist rules. Even Jews outside Israel who are "anti-Zionist" are odiously labelled "self-hating Jews". There was that recent law, for example, which banned any Arab spouse of a Jewish Israeli from getting any State benefits whatsoever, something that would indeed, indirectly, affect the spouse. Plus, I have heard reports of sick Orthodox Israelis insulting/spitting at Israeli Jews who had married Arabs:-
http://jewishproblem.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/anti-racist-mass-immigration-advocating-jews-feel-marriage-to-an-arab-is-national-treason/ (http://jewishproblem.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/anti-racist-mass-immigration-advocating-jews-feel-marriage-to-an-arab-is-national-treason/)
In short, your argument is dead. What amazes me is that you feel you can carry on, despite your dishonesty.
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My personal belief is that people of different ethnicities, background, and religions need to accept each other's differences peacefully.
Nobody has to accept various religious beliefs, or even call any of them logical.
The real problem is when you side with an ethnic group or religion and have the belief they can do no wrong.
You can't say Jews, Catholics, Muslims, or people of any race are perfect.
Everyone's obsessed with the same ideals they get from their parents.
Once people realize that wealth isn't something you use for material gain, and that it's beneficial to use technologies that don't damage the atmosphere or environment. While also supporting better food practices to heal sick populations.
You actually see that financial prosperity can be something beneficial that's used to imrpove the world.
Imagine using technologies like solar panels, water powered boats, cars, air planes etc. Wind powered buildings.
Getting back to making soil nutrient rich, eliminating pesticide run off into the ocean. Banning all nuclear power altogether.
We CAN reduce pollution world wide. We can be peaceful with everyone regardless of the differences between us.
When you realize that virtually every single human fights other humans over literally all the same things. You kind of start to appreciate that you don't need to partake in the needless onslought of human on human violence.
Humans, present day. Are out to ruin various communities of people.
In the ghetto. Gun store, liquor store, smoke shop.
In various more economically stable areas. Fast food chain, fast food chain, starbucks, movie theatre.
The real issue is distractions seperating humans from seeing the bigger picture.
There's people dying and starving world wide. Feeding them nonsense is only going to escalate the disease rates world wide. Subsidising farms and feeding animals gmo grains and other garbage only further destroys human health.
We've seen WWI. We've seen WWII. World War III could be devestating. With most nations having nuclear weapons at their disposal.
Currently, humans are only concerned about profit. It's what big gov wants, which is why politicians protect big business.
When another country has less military force, America always finds some way to step in and put a military base there.
It's gone to far. Intimidation doesn't bring togetherness. Some people can't be bought, they really do live by their morals and prefer to die that way.
To be honest, if your moral code is refusing to kill other humans unless in self defense. Then you're OK. But even then, that can only go so far.
Once you kill that one person, their friends go to get you. Then your friends go to get them. Before you know it were witnessing the onslought of entire generations of people over nothing.
The basis of war is always power. One peoples want power over another people. The two fight endlessly to get their power back.
War can never be the solution. It always results in more fighting.
The solution is common sense. OK, you like god, I like no god. Let's get over it and be friends.
You like specific foods, I like specific foods. Let's get over it, and eat our different foods together.
I like traveling to your country and not getting killed. How about everyone gets over it.
Human on human violence is just plain stupid.
Moral rules people live by are important. The whole problem is when someone finds some more rules they like, they start enforcing it on other people.
They get extremely passionate about it and start teaching it to other people.
Before you know it these people are trying to force people who could care less to like it. Then you have internal conflict.
Religion shouldn't be something people are so hard core about it. Just being like that is stressful and extremely annoying.
I can't stand hanging out with a Christian and all they can tell me is I'm going to hell for smoking, drinking or liking sex.
You don't like using your body for natural enjoyment, I do. Get over it. Preach to someone who wants to hear what you have to say.
Don't think you can save the world through religion, cause it can't be done. We've seen many people take the route and fail consistently.
The deffinition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Seems like humans not learning from their mistakes fall into this category perfectly.
History constantly repeats itself. A WWIII is preventable. But with nobody willing to back off and give people space to breathe, what can you expcet?
Duh people should practice their religions peacefully. But forcefully trying to overthrow governments when the various governments, dictatorships, and kingdoms can all get along peacefully and enjoy trade world wide.
While slowly making changes to use technologies that aren't damaging for the planet.
We have the opportunity to really fix the planet. But if greed prevails, as it usually does, there's little to no hope for humans. Let alone the planet
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I don't know if you guys have seen the beatles movie Help!
But it portrays humans exactly as they are.
They admit religion is the basis for all war.
The movie starts in a budhist temple where they can't perform a sacrifice to get a new king because the woman being sacrificed isn't wearing the sacrifial ring.
Scientists, the war driven religious, and all others go all out to steal Ringo's ring.
They insult humans saying that as artists they need protection. So they play George Harrison's classic "I Need You" near an acient building.
With tanks everywhere, military men everywhere. And the budhists trying to invade to get the ring from ringo.
You may not get it. But religion is extremely offensive. And it's a sure way to only make friends within your culture of religion.
Religion is the epicest fail of all time. Religion is the problem, it's never going to be the solution.
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I am actually an individualist anarchist which is very close to Libertarianism(rightwing that is). I worship chaos more than most but have at least some integrity in that I support most of RP's views. You are just a hypocrite. Please, in future, just admit to who you really would vote for, such as Obama or Romney or worse.
I already voted for RP and donated to his campaign. I'm not going to bother responding to your insults and arguments as you are you're own best refuter of your own points and credibility with your bizarre, contradictory rants and straw men and you seem to be getting out of hand. In most forums you'd probably have been warned or censored by now.
I don't know if you guys have seen the beatles movie Help!
But it portrays humans exactly as they are.
They admit religion is the basis for all war.
Yes, I did see the movie and religion is a major factor in war and friction between people, though not the only one. Sometimes it can be just an excuse or an added layer on top of other reasons. There's a joke in Ireland that explains it well. Here's a version of it:
A journalist, researching for an article on the complex political situation in Northern Ireland, was in a pub in a war-torn area of Belfast. One of his potential informants leaned over his pint of Guinness and suspiciously cross-examined the journalist: "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" the Irishman asked.
"Neither," replied the journalist; "I'm an atheist."
The Irishman, not content with this answer, put a further question: "Ah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Protestant_vs._Catholic_atheism (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Protestant_vs._Catholic_atheism)
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Religion may be a problem sometimes but I find the most problematic religion of all to be atheism. The communist atheists are making it really hard to live freely right now all around the world right now.
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I'm not going to bother responding to your insults and arguments In most forums you'd probably have been warned or censored by now.
What you really mean by that is that if you were in absolute control, you would censor me - after all, you are not telepathic so cannot speak for most others' opinions - (besides, forums differ greatly, some allow full freedom of speech, others insist on endless rules to be followed, usually leading to the demise of that forum or at least inactivity to a large extent). You're not a fan of the 1st amendment, it seems. But I agree, I went over the top re specific insults. Anyway, thanks for not attempting to provide a rebuttal of my last point about discrimination against Jews in Israel. It proves my point and , anyway, you would have lost:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4838496/Israels-humiliating-discrimination-against-Arab-Jews.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4838496/Israels-humiliating-discrimination-against-Arab-Jews.html)
(excerpt from the above re Israeli-incited pogrom):-"In many cases, Shabi points out, the migration was reluctant, imposed by Zionist pressure and even, she suggests, acts of sabotage in the Arab Jews’ native lands. In several of these, Jews had long been part of the social fabric and had no wish to leave")
Protest against discrimination of Ethiopian Jews in Israel.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpfDype_tW4#)
This event is an example of Israel's actions directly causing a pogrom against Jews in Arab countries:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries)
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What you really mean by that is that if you were in absolute control, you would censor me
No, what this appears to mean is you have an arrogant habit of acting like you can read people's minds and pretend they think what you want them to think to justify your own views via ad hominem undercutting of the other person's credibility when you fail to refute their points.
Anyway, thanks for not attempting to provide a rebuttal of my last point about discrimination against Jews in Israel. It proves my point and , anyway, you would have lost:-
It just means that I'm letting you have the last word, because you always insist on getting it anyway and this would go on forever otherwise.
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The pot calling the kettle black. l)
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You retarded moron!
Yeah Ty, Cheri threatened to ban me for way less than such a personal attack. According to your own board rules, you should be keeping insults leveled at ideas, not their proponents.
But maybe you enjoy the conflict?
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Yeah Ty, Cheri threatened to ban me for way less than such a personal attack. According to your own board rules, you should be keeping insults leveled at ideas, not their proponents.
But maybe you enjoy the conflict?
Hmm, trying to impose rules always reduces forum activity because controversy increases post-count and opens up debate on topics that otherwise would not have been discussed. I agree I shouldn't have said that but, quite frankly, I had gotten tired of PP frequently accusing me of the very same behaviour he commits all the time. Hmm, this topic should not really have been posted in the first place, and I was already a bit reluctant re it. I mean we already discussed the Israel lobby in the Ron Paul thread, and there is no current issue regarding Israel right now for it to need to continue. Basically, what it amounted to was a difference of political opinion, and that really ought not to feature on a forum-board in more than a very minor way, since few people tolerate excessive criticism of their political beliefs. I've seen what creationist talk on another forum can do re disruption, so same goes for religion. I had better lock it.
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Well, another member wants this thread to continue, so I'm opening it again. I hope I won't regret it. Ultimately, I think we ought to focus more on the things we have in common as members rather than on other kinds of threads where there is a very big difference in opinion.
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Yeah Ty, Cheri threatened to ban me for way less than such a personal attack. According to your own board rules, you should be keeping insults leveled at ideas, not their proponents.
But maybe you enjoy the conflict?
Not that I love it when Tyler calls name and abuses members, but he has proven his worth to the Raw Paleo community hundreds of times over.
I have seen several members start posting normally here, then gradually ramp up the personal abuse to the point where their posts contain basically no content besides abuse and invective. Since you're a relative noob to the forum, I am still suspicious of you, and keep a tighter rein on you. It's because of previous members bad behavior.
I personally get pretty tired of noobs here, they overpost and say little of real content or value, in many cases. I appreciate enthusiasm, but it does get tiresome. Fewer posts of higher quality are preferable to more posts of lesser average quality, in my view.
However, Google ranks us higher in search results if we have new posts more often, so it's a trade-off.
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Well, another member wants this thread to continue, so I'm opening it again. I hope I won't regret it. Ultimately, I think we ought to focus more on the things we have in common as members rather than on other kinds of threads where there is a very big difference in opinion.
I dont mind the disagreements and debates and dont think we should try to avoid them too much. There are many people on this forum with whom I have had somewhat heated debates but at the end of the day they are all still my raw paleo brothers and its usually the ones I have argued most with on certain areas that have ended up teaching me the most in other areas.
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To piggyback off of tylers video showing the mistreatment of arab jews in israel id like tobring attention to the mistreatment of ashkenazi ultra orthodox jews in israel who are anti-zionist. Here is a very interesting documentary on the subject that I think anybody interested in the subject of the true relation between the religion of judaism and political ideology of zionism.
The Anti-zionist Jews of Jerusalem 1/5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTmw9F9f-2c#)
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Not that I love it when Tyler calls name and abuses members, but he has proven his worth to the Raw Paleo community hundreds of times over.
Yeah, for example, he serves as a useful foil to bounce my thoughts off of and he can usually be counted upon to actively provide a counterpoint, which is a valuable service. A forum where everyone just agrees and act as yes men or don't participate much wouldn't be particularly useful to me, as my main purpose is learning and testing/fleshing out my thoughts. The abuse is an unnecessary waste of both his and my time that I've long recognized unfortunately comes with the package and luckily doesn't phase me.
To piggyback off of tylers video showing the mistreatment of arab jews in israel id like tobring attention to the mistreatment of ashkenazi ultra orthodox jews in israel who are anti-zionist. ...
Yeah, and you'll never see the meeting in which Orthodox Jews embraced and praised Ahmadinejad on Fox or CBS News.
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I have seen several members start posting normally here, then gradually ramp up the personal abuse to the point where their posts contain basically no content besides abuse and invective. Since you're a relative noob to the forum, I am still suspicious of you, and keep a tighter rein on you. It's because of previous members bad behavior.
haha,, who are you?~?
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Great video goodsamaritan.
cherimoya_kid - rather than killing just 3,000 people like the 9/11 terrorists did, the US War Of Terror by a 'christian' country has killed at least 32,000 people in Iraq and 42,000 in Afganistan, but they weren't Americans so they don't count.
Since WWII US initiated wars have caused more than 500,000 deaths and injuries (wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war))
As for Israel they are just defending themselves, as this photo of their illegal use of phosphorous weapons on Palestinian civilians shows:
(http://mycatbirdseat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/soul3.jpg)
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32thousand? where did you get that number?
Try 1 million dead iraqis.
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Yes my mistake - those numbers are actually for US citizen deaths.
The numbers of deaths of other nationalities resulting from US instigated conflict since WWII is estimated to be 20 to 30 Million!
http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm (http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm)
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The bitter irony of the whole charade, is that American leaders and media expect the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to be grateful for our military's slaughtering of thousands upon thousands of their citizens, including women and children. Can you imagine the anger here if the same was done to the USA?
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Thats why we did it. When no real terrorists exist, what better way to create them than by bombing childrens hospitals and schools, etc.
We always need an enemy to keep us in fear and they always make sure to keep us supplied with a good enemy as best they can. They can try to fake attacks and blame it on a fake boogie man like 9/11 but theres nothing better than the real thing.
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We always need an enemy to keep us in fear and they always make sure to keep us supplied with a good enemy as best they can.
is that how you understand it?
if you study international relations it is called spreading the influence. more than half of all the countries are actively doing the same exact thing on local and regional levels. US is doing it on global levels. most of the time it works out just fine. but sometimes it backfires like in Vietnam and Afghanistan. Iraqi campaign actually ended not too bad for the US (comparing to Afghanistan).
China is badly trying to build aircraft carriers so it can do the same thing. it'll be another arms race. whoever has more money will win.
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afghanistan and vietnam didnt backfire on us, they were manufactured enemies.
Zbigniew brzinski created alqaeda, knowing theyd be used to scare us. Now we killed qaddafi and gave libya to alqaeda. US owns al-CIAda bin ladens cia code name was tim osmond. We use them whenever we want. and by we I mean the international bankers that control us.
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Interesting current events in Israel:-
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/24/deport-the-sudanese-violent-israeli-race-riots-draw-condemnation-empathy/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/24/deport-the-sudanese-violent-israeli-race-riots-draw-condemnation-empathy/)
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ask french what they think about tolerance. israel simply does not want to go the french way. totally smart move. US should do the same and then some.
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It's a bit hypocritical for Zionist Jews in the US to be in favour of immigration in the US, but not in Israel.:-
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4241347,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4241347,00.html)
Oops, double-posted without realising re the above.
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i did not see any mention of US Zionist in this article. all i know is the overall mood in the US is anti illegal immigration.
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Whatever the case, the zionist push for illegal immigration of Jews into Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel shows the current move to be somewhat hypocritical by contrast.