Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Instincto / Anopsology => Topic started by: Hanna on August 14, 2010, 03:04:18 pm
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There are instinctos and other raw food eaters in Germany who believe that one cannot digest proteins and in particular raw meat if one doesn´t consume sufficient amounts of salt. Therefore, they drink, for example, every morning a sea salt solution or seawater or (if they are not instinctos) they eat salted meat or the like. What do you think about that? Do you consume seasalt or seawater on a regular basis? I like seaweed, but if I don´t eat any seaweed I probably don´t consume much salt.
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It's an urban myth. One doesn't need salt in order to digest raw meats. Indeed, I and many others have found that raw meats digest less well if condiments like salt are added.
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I had never heard that and I agree with Tyler. I use seawater to brush my teeth. Sometimes I like to drink a little bit of it.
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Although I'm no "Instincto" (please can we change this term into "instinctive raw fooder" or something else?) I like to drink seawater regulary und when there is no seawater available I leak salt. Particulary when my blood pressure is down salt helpes me to come up again.
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I had never heard that
They think that the stomach cannot produce sufficient stomach acid if there is too little salt in the diet.
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It's been my own experience that 'good' salt such as Celtic or Himalayan can be useful.
I've had long-standing adrenal problems which results in my body being unable to suitably hold salt to the point that it's extremely difficult to work up a sweat. Of course, like Susan mentioned, this also causes low blood pressure and it's associated consequences. In addition, I've also long had suspected hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) causing digestive difficulties which I supplement with Betaine Hydrochloride.
Using Celtic seasalt on my food and a pinch in drinking water seems to help immensely in my case with all of these issues. Of course, I've been hoping the problems would resolve on long-term RAF/RPD but they certainly haven't so far. I've tried many times cutting salt out entirely for long periods as I fear the practice may have consequences of it's own but have always felt much worse.
So, perhaps the answer to the dilemma of using salt is not quite so black and white.
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I have dehydration issues so extra sodium is needed, especially when eating dehydrating food like fruit. To obtain it I add sea salt to meat and wait for to dissolve (this way the crystals don't cause mechanical damage).
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Always have some seawater at home is very useful: to brush our teeth (as I mentioned), to wash the fish and to drink some in case we like it – apparently to fulfill a need of salt. We can also get some salt by eating seaweed or shellfish.
Although I'm no "Instincto" (please can we change this term into "instinctive raw fooder" or something else?)
There’s no “instinctos”as such: there are only human beings having eaten raw and instinctively for a certain period of their life. “Instincto” is just a way of speaking like we say “low carber” or “vegetarian”: what is the problem with that as long as we don’t forget we speak about a person, a dynamic being in constant evolution and change whom we shouldn’t categorize?
We have an unwise tendency to categorize everything whereas in nature there are always continuous transitions, everything being interdependent and connected with the rest of the universe.
Cheers
Francois
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The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.
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I eat salt personally with my raw meats because a certain amount on the meat tastes incredible. If I put too much on a bite of my raw meat, though, it tastes terrible.
Just following my instincts with that one.
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The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.
Are you worried about Alphagruis' sarcasms? Nobody is “instincto”, neither “primal dieter” nor vegetarian by birth! We eat “instincto” or whatever and there’s no such people as instinctos, paleo dieters or vegetarians: this is only diets we are experimenting or practicing for a fraction of our life and we are all homo sapiens (at least according to current knowledge). You are Susan, not "an instincto".
If we pretend that the Sun is the center of the solar system, are we anyhow linked with Copernicus? Are we therefore followers of Copernicus, are we linked with him? Would that be a problem to be linked that way with Copernicus because we are following his ideas?
;)
Cheers
Francois
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We have an unwise tendency to categorize everything whereas in nature there are always continuous transitions, everything being interdependent and connected with the rest of the universe.
A beautiful, inciteful and elegant observation and description Francois. I'm tempted to add that sentence to my forum signature.
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Ayurveda says that salt being one of the 6 tastes is required to be supplemented for some persons. Vata. Everbody requires all 6 tastes at each meal, but for instance there is salt in meat, etc. The reasons for this (salt requirement) have been enumerated by the people posting here. It has nothing to do with it being a myth. We are not all created the same. Even though this is obvious, modern researchers have difficulty with this idea.
However for some people like myself salt is like eating liquid fire. I have various reactions to it which are not comfy, so I put it in nothing and if I eat it accidentally say at a restaurant etc when I travel and have no choice, (Eat or starve) I pay a price.
For Pitta predominant persons; (me) sore throats leading to colds, dental pain, upset stomach, nausea, high blood pressure, etc.
For Kapha predominant persons high blood pressure etc. A friend of mine (non-raw foodist) was told he had high blood pressure. Turned out that the "ultra-healthy" V-8 vege juice he was drinking for lunch every day was loaded with sodium. Gave it up and the problem left.
For example, with vata predominant persons, salt along with other things can cure a sore throat. Cures low blood pressure also and indigestion in some persons.
This is why when I hear people make blanket statements that everyone should eat such and such or that scientists have discovered that we should be consuming (fill in the blank) I wince because it generally means that they are selling something and have done but a cursory glance or have looked at slanted data or talking in terms of percentages.
A close relative of mine is a nutritionist in a large hospital. She is Kapha and used to eat lots of salt. It used to make me sick watching her eat the stuff at the table. Predictably she became grossly overweight and had very premature grey hair, another result of too much salt.
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A beautiful, inciteful and elegant observation and description Francois. I'm tempted to add that sentence to my forum signature.
Michael, I would refrain from doing so because first the whole science and knowledge of nature necessarily implies categorization. And second it is utterly wrong that "in nature there are always continuous transitions". There are in fact everywhere major and ubiquitous discontinuous transitions as very basic Physics and Biology tells us. ;D
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Thank you for your equally wonderfully eloquent comments alphagruis.
I find this a fascinating insight into the different perspectives taken by yourself and Francois and, perhaps, a clue as to why you both - if you excuse my presumption to judge - seem to fervently disagree on many things.
I respect and admire both of your opinions for different reasons and I think you both have much wisdom and knowledge to offer.
One's views in life are formulated from a lifetime of unique experience and education as well as, perhaps, a genetically inherited disposition. It's very easy to convince oneself that one's own views are exclusively correct but I suspect this is rarely the case.
Without wishing to 'categorise' either of you and thus extend your own argument, I recognise and appreciate the broad, artistic, philosophical view of Francois as well as your own detailed, analytical, scientific bias. I very much think there is a place for both views and, even in this specific case, recognise that you are both correct.
I suspect that both of your initial individual reactions to these comments (whether expressed or not) will further confirm such delineation eg you will refute the possibility that you can both be correct and Francois will reject your own proposals entirely. ;)
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This time I want to be linked with somebody: like Michael I want to say thank you for your last comment, alphagruis. :)
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We have an unwise tendency to categorize everything whereas in nature there are always continuous transitions, everything being interdependent and connected with the rest of the universe.
Michael, I would refrain from doing so because first the whole science and knowledge of nature necessarily implies categorization. And second it is utterly wrong that "in nature there are always continuous transitions". There are in fact everywhere major and ubiquitous discontinuous transitions as very basic Physics and Biology tells us. ;D
I very much think there is a place for both views and, even in this specific case, recognise that you are both correct.
Yes, Michael, I also think we are both correct. The disagreement seems to be because we applied our comments to different fundamental points of views. Of course, I know that we have to analyze things separately to construct per example a car, that its cylinder head can nowadays be detached form the crankcase, and the car itself can be taken away form the road surface... What I meant, and perhaps I wasn’t specific and clear enough, is that every object is per example subject to the universal gravitation and connected to the rest of the universe mass. See also the EPR paradox.
:)
When an engineer designs an automotive cylinder head, he’d better take into account the rest of the engine it is intended to, and even the kind of infrastructure and driving conditions the vehicle will have to face. He also has these days to take into consideration the global influence of that head design on exhaust emissions and environment. However, automotive OEM’s are not yet accountable for the influence of theirs engineering designs on the destiny of the Galaxy.
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As for categorizing things for studying them, of course we have to, and that’s how our science and knowledge advances. But doing so, we artificially cut nature in slices and we loose the view of complex interactions. Sure, there appears discontinuities, but by successive gradations and it depends on which space-time scale we refer to. Where is the circumference of an atom? Where is the edge of a galaxy? Where and when the differentiation between men and animals happened?
;D
I suppose Alpha refers to emergent properties also. Yes, on one hand a sort of discontinuity can appear in individual cases, but for this to include the whole population of the specie it certainly takes several generations.
:D
Example : is there a continuity between the salt and what we’re talking about now? Should this topic be split and if yes where ?
;)
Francois
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Nobody is “instincto”, neither “primal dieter” nor vegetarian by birth! We eat “instincto” or whatever and there’s no such people as instinctos, paleo dieters or vegetarians: this is only diets we are experimenting or practicing for a fraction of our life and we are all homo sapiens (at least according to current knowledge). You are Susan, not "an instincto".
I can't see what is actually all this fuss about.
I (as most likely many of us here) simply failed and still fail to see even remotely any relevance of the above comments on the very simple and lucid statement of Susan that initiated it, namely:
The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.
This seems clear enough and doesn't need any fancy or abstruse philosophical considerations.
I add just a small comment on just one among the other examples of completely irrelevant nonsense :
I suppose Alpha refers to emerging functions also. Yes, on one hand a sort of discontinuity can appear in individual cases, but for this to include the whole population of the specie it certainly takes several generations.
There exists nothing like "emerging functions", this is a meaningless word association and so I certainly neither employed nor referred to it. Just the guru's new nonsense wording as I already pointed out before a few weeks ago.
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Nobody is “instincto”, neither “primal dieter” nor vegetarian by birth! We eat “instincto” or whatever and there’s no such people as instinctos, paleo dieters or vegetarians: this is only diets we are experimenting or practicing for a fraction of our life and we are all homo sapiens (at least according to current knowledge). You are Susan, not "an instincto".
I can't see what is actually all this fuss about.
I (as most likely many of us here) simply failed and still fail to see even remotely any relevance of the above comments on the very simple and lucid statement of Susan that initiated it, namely:
The term "instincto" is linked with Guy-Claude Burger, his ideas and of course with his followers. But I'm a follower of myself and so I prefer to call myself an "instinctive raw fooder", a term which isn't linked with somebody.
This seems clear enough and doesn't need any fancy or abstruse philosophical considerations.
May I explain once again what you fail to understand ? The “fuss” is that there’s no such specie as “instincto”. “Instincto” is just a way of eating, as you did eat for 6 or 7 years. Perhaps Susan discovered instinctive nutrition by herself, so that she can really follow herself? If you can’t see what this fuss is about, why do make more fuss of it? Don’t you have something more interesting to do? ;D
I add just a small comment on just one among the other examples of completely irrelevant nonsense :
I suppose Alpha refers to emerging functions also. Yes, on one hand a sort of discontinuity can appear in individual cases, but for this to include the whole population of the specie it certainly takes several generations.
There exists nothing like "emerging functions", this is a meaningless word association and so I certainly neither employed nor referred to it. Just the guru's new nonsense wording as I already pointed out before a few weeks ago.
Yes, thanks to kindly mention that so that I can edit my erroneous word, a bad translation from a seldom used French wording. I meant emergent phenomenon or emergent properties, as you employed and referred to here ;D:
Autrement dit, bien plus encore que pour la cuisson, il est ici capital de tester la robustesse de ton hypothèse « d’instinct » (difficile déjà à admettre par elle-même dans ce cadre) lorsqu’on abandonne le cadre du (néo)darwinisme pour la théorie bien plus appropriée de l’auto-organisation des systèmes complexes et des propriétés émergentes. Et là ça coince définitivement car la notion « d’instinct » même perd toute pertinence. Seul subsiste en fait l’équilibre alimentaire ou c’est équivalent la santé comme propriété émergente du tout (organisme+environnement) et non une aptitude individuelle ou « instinct »
Il n'y a hélas par définition pas de principe d'organisation aussi simple qui régit l'équilibre alimentaire qui est un phénomène émergent, justement, comme la plupart des propriérés remarquables des systèmes complexes.
(…)
Le problème est hélas qu'il n'est par essence pas possible de corriger les choses car il y a là une barrière épistémologique fondamentale, une impossibilté à réduire un phénomène émergent à un principe aussi simple même approximativement.
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There is salt in the blood of animals that normally would be eaten by traditional peoples, but not typically by moderners. So it's theoretically possible that this is something lacking in our Paleo-type diets. How much salt, I don't know. The closest thing I could find was http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sausages-and-luncheon-meats/1323/2. One 100g serving contains 28% DV for sodium.
This sketchy anonymous source claims that human blood contains sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate along with several chlorides, phosphates, calcium, and magnesium (http://www.allinterview.com/showanswers/1067.html).
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May I explain once again what you fail to understand ? The “fuss” is that there’s no such specie as “instincto”. “Instincto” is just a way of eating, as you did eat for 6 or 7 years.
Even this statement is finally nonsense since according to the guru himself he considered he has to teach me, at last, to use my nose properly and eat "instinctively" ;D
If you can’t see what this fuss is about, why do make more fuss of it? Don’t you have something more interesting to do? ;D
Just to warn the other forumers, have fun and point out the nonsense you post sometimes. Takes not more than 2 minutes ;D
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Thanks. I acknowledge your friendly statement that I post nonsense sometimes only, so that not everything I post is nonsense. Who is "the guru", please ? Could you call him by his name, so that everyone can catch whom you refer to? Ah, he offended you because, of course, as a scientist you know very well how to use your nose and you practiced instinctive nutrition in the absolute best possible way. Sure, how could I have failed to understand that immediately?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks. I acknowledge your friendly statement that I post nonsense sometimes only, so that not everything I post is nonsense. Who is "the guru", please ? Could you call him by his name, so that everyone can catch whom you refer to? Ah, he offended you because, of course, as a scientist you know very well how to use your nose and you practiced instinctive nutrition in the absolute best possible way. Sure, how could I have failed to understand that immediately?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well, I'm afraid I have to replace my previous "sometimes" with "frequently".
Since what you didn't fail to do, at any rate, is to post immediately new nonsense since I never claimed even remotely to have practiced "instinctive nutrition" either in any "absolute best possible way" or in the guru's inspired holy way.
Again there are more things in heaven and on earth than "instincto".
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Again there are more things in heaven and on earth than "instincto".
Sure, I couldn’t agree more and I’ll go on right now with other activities than exchanging stupid posts with you.
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Sure, I couldn’t agree more and I’ll go on right now with other activities than exchanging stupid posts with you.
Wise decision.
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Let's get back to salt-related discussions.
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I agree. Any further thoughts on the use of salt?
As an additional note, I have started to reduce my salt intake recently and am no longer adding it to my foods. I am still regularly eating a raw grass-fed butter which is made with celtic sea salt, however. I've noticed no effects from the reduction so far.
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I agree. Any further thoughts on the use of salt?
I add it occasionally still albeit at a greatly reduced usage. A dash here or there (every couple of days at most). I'm at a point where I can feel the need.
Interestingly I'm noticed further improvement to my hypostatic orthotension through more sleep. I think part of my issue was unknowingly eating too little food for the rest I was getting. I'm putting on mass too since the change to my sleeping pattern. :)
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Interesting to hear you're adding a little salt back in again Dan. Thanks for the update.
I can relate to the sleep patterns. I expect my late nights are causing me problems. It's midnight here and I'm posting on the forum which is ridiculous! Must get to bed! :)
Glad to hear you're observing continuing improvements.
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Didn't Stone Agers have access to salt from animal blood and salt licks? Other primates are known to utilize salt licks (http://www.proyectoprimates.org/files/Protocols/Salt_Lick_Camera_and_Video_Camera_Traps.html)--why not Stone Age humans?
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Some instinctos seem to need much salt because they eat cassia fistula in large quantities. I wonder if cassia contributes to teeth problems (mineral deficiency).
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for what its worth, another perspective on salt..
I sip seawater from time to time (I am also attracted to shellfish and I eat seaweeds directly from the rocks) as the salt seems to replenish fluids excreted.
Too much straight water combined with high water content foods such as fruit and vegies, tends (for me) to promote headache type symptoms.
But this symptom is absent when my natural attraction to a salt-taste is followed, and likewise drinking straight water to instinct, rather than the recommended amount I 'should' be drinking.
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I've nearly completely removed salt from my diet (except for the occasional social gathering). I'm now experimenting with instinctive eating and conventional foods and I find that I crave salt and generally in combination with protein. I've never craved salt and carbohydrates. However, when I did begin to crave meat again I was sure to enjoy it raw with salt and it was very satisfying.
I don't think I'll starve myself of salt again if my body is crying out for it.
Jon Barron discusses the consumption of salt by animals and humans historically in this review of the Paleo Diet (http://www.jonbarron.org/weight-loss/paleo-diet-review-good-bad). I think there is something to having a small amount of salt to the diet. Your body will tell you how much you need. All you need to do is be attentive and wait for the signals.
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It's an essential mineral, and the RDA is similar to potassium, 2-3 grams/day. It's not good when you get them out of balance, e.g. a lot of potassium and little salt, or the other way around.
It's really hard to get enough sodium through diet alone, especially raw diet.
There's nothing wrong then with "supplementing" a bit here and there on your meat..
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They think that the stomach cannot produce sufficient stomach acid if there is too little salt in the diet.
Well salt is NaCl, stomach acid is HCl, so at least the Cl in the salt helps produce stomach acid. I'm not sure whether we get chloride from some other foods?
Potassium btw is just as important as chloride for the production of HCl.
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I don't think I'll starve myself of salt again if my body is crying out for it.
I think there is something to having a small amount of salt to the diet. Your body will tell you how much you need. All you need to do is be attentive and wait for the signals.
Hi Zeno,
for what its worth, I think it is significant that we have an attraction to a 'salty taste' in the first place. And when, we cease eating processed, packaged foods that often contain added salt, certain foods like fish, shellfish, seaweed, or bloody meat, or celery or other vegetables, even sucking on sea-salt crystals, become especially attractive at certain times. Wisdom of the Body in action.
Kind wishes, J
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Every blood draw I can remember shows I am very low in sodium. I grew up eating home made foods from my grandma that were low salt b/c they followed doctors guidelines. So, I don't really like salt on food. But I discovered that I was actually craving salt when I thought I was craving salty carb foods I used to eat like chips, pepperoni sausage. I don't crave those things now that I just eat salt. Once in a while I do want salt on food. I think it helps me to get more salt in when I need it. It is hard for me to eat more than a little shake in my hand. I can add lots of salt to fat and it still tastes good. I get a stop though, even with food. I get sour and salt stops very powerfully. But sweet and bitter are very subtle.
I believe it is medicine I need. I treat it that way. I'm chronically ill though. I'm not like a caveman. Those rules don't exactlly apply. Without insulin I would have been fertilizer for your cows grass. I don't think if I had been born a cave woman or living this way I ever would have developed diabetes so mostly I do follow.
Also, I used to see myself as a mind in a body, but now I am a body with a loving mind in service of me. I like it better. Body and mind can booth be mistaken, and mine rarely agree, but it keeps my experience primary
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adora you should read dr. l wilsons personalities as attributed to mineral levels in the body, he has several articles on specific minerals and traits associated with people who have either high or low levels of these, its pretty interesting
http://drlwilson.com/Articles/personality.htm (http://drlwilson.com/Articles/personality.htm)
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i didnt eat salt for the longest time becuase i thought it was unhealthy...i only started salting foods in the last three years. i know after times when my life is extremely stressful i will be much more generous with salt on my food as if my adrenals are just burning through it. i have a lot of ailments and weird issues around food and mistreating my body and health though and my adrenals are pretty low functioning and struggle to maintain a good balance of minerals in my body (edema, thrist and pissing more then normal is my measure for this)
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To be sure to ingest the proper amount of salt and of the various foodstuffs you eat, you shouldn't put salt on it, but instead eat everything unmixed, unprocessed, unseasoned and unsalted.
Then get some salt from shellfish, shellfish-water, seawater - and even perhaps sucking on sea-salt crystals, as Wattlebird wrote. So, you can instinctively feel exactly how much salt your body currently needs.
Cheers
Francois
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Hi Jessica I looked at the website thanks for sending it.
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To be sure to ingest the proper amount of salt and of the various foodstuffs you eat, you shouldn't put salt on it, but instead eat everything unmixed, unprocessed, unseasoned and unsalted.
Then get some salt from shellfish, shellfish-water, seawater - and even perhaps sucking on sea-salt crystals, as Wattlebird wrote. So, you can instinctively feel exactly how much salt your body currently needs.
Cheers
Francois
That's an interesting point, Iguana. Traditional peoples didn't have salt shakers that they sprinkled salt from, they had wild seafood, animal blood and salt licks. However, given the rarity and expense of those foods, couldn't sprinkling natural sea salt on food be viewed as a decent stand-in? If the salt that's naturally in seafood and mammal blood is OK, then when those are less available in the diet, wouldn't it be relatively OK to add a small amount back, especially when one's test results have revealed low sodium levels in the bodily fluids?
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for what its worth, an example of salt attraction (for me) in practice happened today:
I went down to the beach and walking through the dunes there were plenty of pigface flowers. These are an indigenous plant and you can eat the budding flowers, which taste a bit like lychee. Anyway, I ate one and that was that. Sometimes, I could literally pig-out on pigface (no disrespect to pigs). ;) But not today, too sweet for current requirements.
But on geting down to the foreshore there was lots of washed up kelp that had dried out in the sun. I ate a small strand which was delightfully salty. Then ate another one and another one. Then enough was enough.
Simply didn't want any more.
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Yes Wattelbird, I just forgot seaweeds as a source of salt!
However, given the rarity and expense of those foods, couldn't sprinkling natural sea salt on food be viewed as a decent stand-in? If the salt that's naturally in seafood and mammal blood is OK, then when those are less available in the diet, wouldn't it be relatively OK to add a small amount back especially when one's test results have revealed low sodium levels in the bodily fluids?
Phil, yes it would be “relatively ok”… as it is relatively ok to think that we can master and reengineer the nature and the whole world, that we have the knowledge and power to control and shape everything, to cure what we perceive as inadequacies in the natural world such as redirecting rivers, genetically modifying plants and animals, cutting or burning the forest to plant crops, then spraying pesticides against weeds ands insects - especially when test results have revealed infestations - and so on.
That way of thinking based on human external diagnostic and prescription (instead of letting the nature to re-equilibrate itself) is precisely the one that is leading mankind to destroy the environment and the whole planet.
If someone has too low sodium levels in the bodily fluids, this person will very probably be attracted by raw, unprocessed and unmixed salted stuff such as seaweeds, shellfish, seawater or sea-salt crystals and spontaneously eat the needed amount to restore her equilibrium. I think such a phenomenon is called homeostasis. ;)
Cheers
Francois
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If someone has too low sodium levels in the bodily fluids, this person will very probably be attracted by raw, unprocessed and unmixed salted stuff such as ... sea-salt crystals....
Yes, that's basically what I meant--raw, unprocessed sea salt crystals. So that is OK, right? Do you think it's OK to grind the crystals to make consuming it a bit easier, quicker and more pleasant? By unmixed, do you mean you don't believe anyone should sprinkle hand-ground sea salt crystals on foods?
Even with adding some sea salt to my foods, my sodium level was measured as still allegedly too low. I do also eat it separately at times, but I find I eat even less of it when I do that. I find it more palatable when it's with other foods, in the same way that salt is mixed in naturally with the fish and seaweed. I don't extract the salt from the fish or seaweed and eat it separately. It comes mixed in the same package. Our land mammal meats are unnaturally drained of their salt-containing blood, so adding a small amount of salt back doesn't seem that strange when someone's salt levels are low.
On the other hand, maybe today's standards of what's too low are wrong, but if someone with low salt levels also has low HCL and some difficulty digesting meats as a result, then adding sea salt to meat and/or water seems like a more natural alternative to taking HCL pills, and it makes sense that it might help because salt contributes to the production of HCL in the body, which Hannah hinted at and aLptHW4k4y explained. If anyone using sea salt crystals should experience negative effects, they could simply stop using it.
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Potassium btw is just as important as chloride for the production of HCl.
Why?
my sodium level was measured as still allegedly too low.
Interesting. My blood was tested a few years ago and AFAIK my sodium level was fine. Perhaps there is sufficient salt in vegetables? I have always eaten either vegetables or/and seafood. However, my blood hasn´t been tested since. i hoped that the company doctor would do that but since I refused the vaccination, he didn´t want to test my blood either.
I don´t know whether i would meanwhile be able to enjoy (and digest) fresh mammal muscle meat - and I don´t care :). I feel very well (also healthwise) ever since I have a job that I enjoy very much! Therefore, I´m not motivated to experiment with diet for the time being ("never change a running system"). My diet is essentially unchanged since years.
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Yes, that's basically what I meant--raw, unprocessed sea salt crystals. So that is OK, right? Do you think it's OK to grind the crystals to make consuming it a bit easier, quicker and more pleasant? By unmixed, do you mean you don't believe anyone should sprinkle hand-ground sea salt crystals on foods?
Are there animals doing that? Did our pre-fire ancestors do that?
in the same way that salt is mixed in naturally with the fish and seaweed. I don't extract the salt from the fish or seaweed and eat it separately. It comes mixed in the same package.
Yes, that’s natural. No animal would do it neither.
Our land mammal meats are unnaturally drained of their salt-containing blood
Are they? It seems to me that generally most of the blood flows out after the animal has been wounded and killed, even more so when a predator had started to eat it and is chased away by a band of hominids armed with stones, sticks or assegais.
On the other hand, maybe today's standards of what's too low are wrong, but if someone with low salt levels also has low HCL and some difficulty digesting meats as a result, then adding sea salt to meat and/or water seems like a more natural alternative to taking HCL pills, and it makes sense that it might help because salt contributes to the production of HCL in the body, which Hannah hinted at and aLptHW4k4y explained. If anyone using sea salt crystals should experience negative effects, they could simply stop using it.
Sure, it is probably less of an artifice, but still is. Why not drink sea water or eat seaweeds instead, for example ? This way, the right amount of salt will be instinctively precisely regulated, something you don’t get when you mix salt with other foodstuff, which overrides the instinctive regulation both for salt and for the particular foodstuff. Negative effects very often shows up years or decades latter in live, most of the times too late.
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iguana do you think its a little bit ironic that, perhaps our ancestors did not use such specialized tools as salt grinders, and perhaps they did not also stare into computer screens and have lengthy discussions backed by hearsay and science about the minutia of diet
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Interesting. My blood was tested a few years ago and AFAIK my sodium level was fine. Perhaps there is sufficient salt in vegetables? I have always eaten either vegetables or/and seafood. However, my blood hasn´t been tested since.
Sounds like you should be fine re: salt.
i hoped that the company doctor would do that but since I refused the vaccination, he didn´t want to test my blood either. ....
Wow! Using coercion to try to force you into getting vaccinated. Despicable.
Are there animals doing that? Did our pre-fire ancestors do that?
See discussion aid #1 in my signature. I'm not into re-enactment for re-enactment's sake. If something helps, I don't see the point of not doing something just because animals or ancestors didn't do it. Animals and ancestors can be a clue about what to do, but not the final answer.
Sure, it is probably less of an artifice, but still is. Why not drink sea water or eat seaweeds instead, for example ?
I do eat seaweeds and I also have a seaweed-shaker salt substitute, though it's not as good tasting as sea salt and taste is supposed to be important for Instinctos, is it not? My question was regarding when people won't do that, for whatever reason, or it's not enough to get their sodium, HCL or calorie levels up and adding salt could help do that. Why refuse to try it just because it's not a pure re-enactment? If they found themselves consuming too much salt as a result, they could end the experiment.
This way, the right amount of salt will be instinctively precisely regulated, something you don’t get when you mix salt with other foodstuff,
As I pointed out, salt is naturally mixed with seaweed, seawater, saltwater fish, land mammal blood, and it's in most foods, including veggies, as Hannah pointed out. The amount of salt in plants and animals varies depending on the salt content of the local soils, so adding salt might just raise the sodium level of a food up to the natural level it would have reached in an area with higher-sodium soils. I think you even mentioned that it's OK to add salt to water and drink it. So why is it OK to add salt to water and to eat foods that contain salt, but not to add salt to foods if one is still deficient in it?
Negative effects very often shows up years or decades latter in live, most of the times too late.
What evidence are you basing that on? Is that something GCB tracked? Did some Instinctos ignore GCB's advice on salt but follow all his other advice to the letter and suffer serious problems years later? If so, how many and how would he know that they didn't secretly ignore his advice on other matters?
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Sure, it is probably less of an artifice, but still is. Why not drink sea water or eat seaweeds instead, for example ? This way, the right amount of salt will be instinctively precisely regulated, something you don’t get when you mix salt with other foodstuff, which overrides the instinctive regulation both for salt and for the particular foodstuff. Negative effects very often shows up years or decades latter in live, most of the times too late.
So where do I find this seaweeds and sea water? I don't live near the coast.
I mean you're being really extreme regarding processing here.
Whether I drink sea water or eat similar amount of salt that comes from that same sea water where the water has evaporated under the sun..
You can push to be "in tune with your instincts", but obviously in some cases it can be dangerous, e.g. "I'm away from salty foods or waters but I won't eat salt as it will override my instincts".
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Why?
here from wikipedia:
Hydrochloric acid is formed in the following manner:
* Hydrogen ions are formed from the dissociation of water molecules. The enzyme carbonic anhydrase converts one molecule of carbon dioxide and one molecule of water indirectly into a bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) and a hydrogen ion (H+).
* The bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) is exchanged for a chloride ion (Cl-) on the basal side of the cell and the bicarbonate diffuses into the venous blood, leading to an alkaline tide.
* Potassium (K+) and chloride (Cl-) ions diffuse into the canaliculi.
* Hydrogen ions are pumped out of the cell into the canaliculi in exchange for potassium ions, via the H+/K+ ATPase.
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iguana do you think its a little bit ironic that, perhaps our ancestors did not use such specialized tools as salt grinders, and perhaps they did not also stare into computer screens and have lengthy discussions backed by hearsay and science about the minutia of diet
Jessica, your argument is often used as a reason why a raw paleo nutrition would be silly nowadays. The fact that our ancestors didn’t do this or that doesn’t prevent me to use my computer, ride my bike, sail on my windsurfboards, drive my car. This forum is only about raw paleo nutrition (as its name implies), not about paleo lifestyle. Perhaps a completely paleo lifestyle would be better for us if it were still possible but that’s outside the field of this forum. ;)
See discussion aid #1 in my signature (“I do what works best for me”). I'm not into re-enactment for re-enactment's sake. If something helps, I don't see the point of not doing something just because animals or ancestors didn't do it. Animals and ancestors can be a clue about what to do, but not the final answer.
It’s difficult to know what works best for us in the long run. For example, a lot of people feel fine with cooked modern food: coffee, beer, bread and cheeseburgers may seem to work best, but what about the long term? >:
The whole raw paleo nutrition concept is based on the hypothesis of an incomplete adaptation to Neolithic foods and modern cooked foods. The precautionary principle logically compels us to avoid all those potentially harmful foods, even if they don’t immediately generate apparent troubles. A cooked Neolithic diet including a lot of dairy worked fine for me during several years. Troubles only appeared after decades. There are a lot of substances such as asbestos and certain chemicals which can cause much delayed troubles. >D
If they found themselves consuming too much salt as a result, they could end the experiment.
How would they know that they consume too much salt? l)
As I pointed out, salt is naturally mixed with seaweed, seawater, saltwater fish, land mammal blood, and it's in most foods, including veggies, as Hannah pointed out. The amount of salt in plants and animals varies depending on the salt content of the local soils, so adding salt might just raise the sodium level of a food up to the natural level it would have reached in an area with higher-sodium soils. I think you even mentioned that it's OK to add salt to water and drink it. So why is it OK to add salt to water and to eat foods that contain salt, but not to add salt to foods if one is still deficient in it?
I don’t remember having written that and I never did it myself. Adding salt to food may induce over consumption of that food. It seems evident that an unsalted food may taste bland and unattractive, but salted it may become palatable. The result may likely be that you end up by eating a food you should not eat, or that you eat too much of it, or that you eat too much salt. >:
What evidence are you basing that on? Is that something GCB tracked? Did some Instinctos ignore GCB's advice on salt but follow all his other advice to the letter and suffer serious problems years later? If so, how many and how would he know that they didn't secretly ignore his advice on other matters?
No, nothing of those sorts. Once again, it’s obvious that some chemicals and asbestos as well as cooked, Neolithic and modern food neither kill nor make everybody ill on the spot, but may have deleterious effects in the long run, several years latter. :'(
So where do I find this seaweeds and sea water? I don't live near the coast.
I mean you're being really extreme regarding processing here.
Whether I drink sea water or eat similar amount of salt that comes from that same sea water where the water has evaporated under the sun..
I never wrote that we shouldn’t eat sea salt from evaporated seawater. l)
You can push to be "in tune with your instincts", but obviously in some cases it can be dangerous, e.g. "I'm away from salty foods or waters but I won't eat salt as it will override my instincts".
I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example. :)
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I never wrote that we shouldn’t eat sea salt from evaporated seawater. l)I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example. :)
Sorry, I misunderstood your post :)
Eating salt by itself is not pleasant at all. Only way to eat salt by itself is then to put some in a glass of water and drink as much as you feel like?
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Adding salt to food may induce over consumption of that food.
So if one is underconsuming food, then that could be a benefit, right?
I never wrote that we shouldn’t eat sea salt from evaporated seawater. l)I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example. :)
That's the sort of sea salt I have been talking about from the beginning, and my understanding was that everyone else was too; so perhaps your concerns were not with what we were talking about, but with heated and refined table salt?
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So if one is underconsuming food, then that could be a benefit, right?
If one is under-consuming oranges, than salting them could be a benefit, perhaps? ;D
Seriously, what could be the reasons for under-consuming a food? Because you have a limited amount of it or no access at all to it, most probably. In such cases, adding salt to something you don’t have would be of little help. ;)
That's the sort of sea salt I have been talking about from the beginning, and my understanding was that everyone else was too; so perhaps your concerns were not with what we were talking about, but with heated and refined table salt?
No, I mean that salting food is a recent invention (relatively to the evolution time scale) and thus the question arises, just as for grain, dairy and cooking: “have our ancestors been consuming salted food since a sufficiently long time for a complete adaptation to be achieved?”
The experience shows that salting food changes its taste and thus the amount ingested, apparently distording the instinctive regulation. In most cases, one would eat less fruits if salted, but more fish and meat. Worse, salt may also cover the taste of a bad piece or part that wouldn’t have been eaten unsalted and thus shouldn’t be eaten.
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Seriously, what could be the reasons for under-consuming a food?
As with overconsumption, there are multiple potential reasons.
Thanks for the input.
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Here's an interesting take on salt that differs with the standard demonization:
Shaking Up the Salt Myth: Healthy Salt Recommendations
http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-healthy-salt-recommendations (http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-healthy-salt-recommendations)
As you may realize by now, salt has had a very colorful history, both in the development of human civilization as well as public health politics in the past century. While salt was originally prized by many cultures for thousands of years, in the past century it has been demonized; some have gone as far as calling it the single most harmful substance in the food supply. Yet as we know, sodium plays a crucial role in optimal health, and too little salt intake can be dangerous in the long run. ....
findings from a 2011 study demonstrate the lowest risk of death for sodium excretion between 4000 and 5990 milligrams per day. (1) Sodium excretion greater than 7000 milligrams or less than 3000 milligrams per day was associated with a higher risk of stroke, heart attack and death. This lowest risk range equates to approximately two to three teaspoons of salt per day. ....
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There are instinctos and other raw food eaters in Germany who believe that one cannot digest proteins and in particular raw meat if one doesn´t consume sufficient amounts of salt. Therefore, they drink, for example, every morning a sea salt solution or seawater or (if they are not instinctos) they eat salted meat or the like. What do you think about that? Do you consume seasalt or seawater on a regular basis? I like seaweed, but if I don´t eat any seaweed I probably don´t consume much salt.
Well, until lately I wasn´t able to eat significant amounts of the unprocessed muscle meat of land animals (although I could and can eat liver, brain, bone marrow, fish etc.). When I tried to eat the muscle meat I sensed an early instinctive stop and when I ate the meat in spite of this stop, I didn´t digest it well.
Now my nutrition will certainly change a bit because I can eat the (completely unprocessed) meat of land animals now! In the previous days I ate a lot of bone marrow and tasted the meat and fat sticking on the bones. The meat (beef) and fat tasted delicious and there was no instinctive stop until none of the meat was left. I digested it well, so I bought a slice of pork and hang it into the fridge. I then tried to eat it - it tasted delicious and there was no early instinctive stop, so I could eat quite a bit of it. The quality was certainly not ideal (organic), but now that I know I´m able to eat significant amounts of meat I´ll try to get meat of better quality.
I didn´t eat any extra salt in the previous months (or even years?), so obviously no lack of salt was to blame that I wasn´t able to eat/digest significant amounts of meat.
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I don’t see any problem in eating sea salt, sea crystals or Himalayan salt, for example. :)
I got curious and tried a few crystals of himalayan salt. Was repulsed by it. Maybe I don't need it now.
When do you crave for salt?
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I brush my teeth morning and evening with seawater and when I feel like, I drink a bit of it. Otherwise I get salt from shellfish and seaweeds.
Cravings are often based on memory of the last time we ate a specific food and are thus unreliable (because our needs may have changed in the meantime).
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Hmmm... Do you live by the sea or do you have a method of storing sea water?
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I'm at 145 km from the Atlantic coast, but I drive there a few times in summer to swim, walk along the beach, ride my bike and rest in the sand or in my hammock under the trees. Sometimes, I also fill several 5 liters drinking water containers with sea water and bring it home.
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I'm at 145 km from the Atlantic coast, but I drive there a few times in summer to swim, walk along the beach, ride my bike and rest in the sand or in my hammock under the trees. Sometimes, I also fill several 5 liters drinking water containers with sea water and bring it home.
How long does sea water keep in the refrigerator? Or do you just leave it out at room temperature? Covered / sealed? Or open?
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I just keep in the closed containers in the basement which must be between 10 - 20° C according to the season. I don't know if there a time limit... after about a year it is still good, I don't notice any difference.
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So how does saltwater compare to standard toothpaste? Personally, I only bother with using toothpaste as SAD-eating people don't like the smell of raw meat in the mouth. If I possessed millions, I wouldn't give a damn, but I have to earn a living....
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Wow, thanks for the tip. I will try this the next time I go to the beach
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So how does saltwater compare to standard toothpaste? Personally, I only bother with using toothpaste as SAD-eating people don't like the smell of raw meat in the mouth. If I possessed millions, I wouldn't give a damn, but I have to earn a living....
Just dissolve some salt in water and try, it's not like it will be tremendously different from actual seawater.
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So how does saltwater compare to standard toothpaste? Personally, I only bother with using toothpaste as SAD-eating people don't like the smell of raw meat in the mouth. If I possessed millions, I wouldn't give a damn, but I have to earn a living....
Standard toothpaste has a very strong taste which deeply disturbs our taste buds and is made with chemicals which could be more or less noxious once in the mouth, especially when used daily and since we cannot totally avoid any absorption.
Perhaps a bit of lemon juice would be suitable to get rid of any unpleasant odor but I find it disturbing as well and too much citric acid too often may be bad for the teeth.
When I stayed on Rotuma Island long ago, chief Titofag taught me to brush my teeth in the lagoon and I found out that seawater was cleaning them better than soft water. So, whenever I have seawater I prefer it to soft water, all the more so as tap water is generally chlorinated.
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salt water is good, especially right from the ocean. I like bentonite. I make a paste out of it and use it every time I eat. I floss with it also.
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Hmm, interesting. I draw the line at removing soap when I wash, but using saltwater for toothpaste sounds interesting. Just how much salt should I add to how much water, each time, though, and how long does it take for the salt to dissolve in the water?
I also need to add cold showers/baths to my standard routine. I get too lazy when having hot baths.
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Seawater salinity is around 3%, so you'd dissolve 30g salt in a 1L water.
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Yes Wattelbird, I just forgot seaweeds as a source of salt!
Phil, yes it would be “relatively ok”… as it is relatively ok to think that we can master and reengineer the nature and the whole world, that we have the knowledge and power to control and shape everything, to cure what we perceive as inadequacies in the natural world such as redirecting rivers, genetically modifying plants and animals, cutting or burning the forest to plant crops, then spraying pesticides against weeds ands insects - especially when test results have revealed infestations - and so on.
That way of thinking based on human external diagnostic and prescription (instead of letting the nature to re-equilibrate itself) is precisely the one that is leading mankind to destroy the environment and the whole planet.
If someone has too low sodium levels in the bodily fluids, this person will very probably be attracted by raw, unprocessed and unmixed salted stuff such as seaweeds, shellfish, seawater or sea-salt crystals and spontaneously eat the needed amount to restore her equilibrium. I think such a phenomenon is called homeostasis. ;)
Cheers
Francois
I think equilibrium/homeostasis is what most people are lacking and this is what makes it so hard to 'read' the signs that our body gives us (feedback). I do believe what you say by taking things in their raw state to get them as close as possible to nature (as we were used to hundreds and thousands of years ago).
Following instinct to see what the body needs makes sense and to follow up on these instincts by taking that food in the raw state is probably the best you can do.
This might be why it makes it so hard for us all to come in agreement of what 'works'.
Peace