Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: B.Money on September 11, 2011, 12:25:41 pm
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I have been buying cold packed honey from honey pacifica for a little while now and just recently have been getting it shipped in larger bottles to my house. Usually this wildflower honey is very thick, I would be unable to pour it out.
This batch that I just received recently is very runny and readily pours out of the jar. I'm not sure if that is just the way the batch is this summer, or if maybe it got too hot in the UPS truck when being shipped. Its also much darker than usual. I don't know much about this sort of thing so I thought I would ask.
What do you guys think? Any experience with this brand recently, is this normal?
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Did you ever find out why your honey was runny? This season, I've gotten two batches of runny honey from reputable local sources. They tell me the consistency varies by flower source. I'm still skeptical, even though I've been to one of the apiaries and I know for sure the honey is not heated. Maybe somebody here can explain.
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Different plant nectars apparently produce different honeys of different thicknesses. I remember reading about it somewhere, something to do with the moisture content or something. I doubt that all of the makers of raw liquid-type honeys are lying about it. Plus, I know a raw honey maker that sells BOTH thick and liquid raw honeys. Why would they bother with the liquid ones if they weren't truly raw? It seems much more likely that there are different densities of raw honey than that there is a major international raw honey conspiracy. ;D
Usually honey makers and sellers strive for consistency within a particular variety, though. Another potential factor is heat during shipping, if you order honey.
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It seems much more likely that there are different densities of raw honey than that there is a major international raw honey conspiracy. ;D
Thanks for your answer, Phil. I'll quit my cooked-honey-paranoia. Mostly, I was worried that I wasn't asking the right questions when I called the apiary. Next year, I will specify "thick, not runny" when I call around.
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One thing to watch out for is whether they use a centrifuge or not. Aajonus claims that centrifuges heat the honey a bit and I do find that the truly raw honey I get tastes better, though it could be coincidence I suppose, but Aajonus has eaten a lot of honey over the years, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's right. Fermenting seems to be an even bigger plus in my case.
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I generally only eat honey in the comb, to avoid all possibility of cooked honey.
I do find I can taste the difference between cooked and raw honey. Cooked honey doesn't produce the same sort of dryness in the mouth. It's said that raw honey is drying in the body, but cooked honey is not.
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We get thin runny honey from Palawan. Certified wild and raw. My wife even met with the owner personally.
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honey can be certified raw and still be heated...theres quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that. Someone once supplied some info on why even slight heat is bad for honey..and something about how the bees will fan it if outside natural temp gets even in the 90's. So this anti-raw food adage...that some foods in nature obviously get over 105 etc..apparently does not apply to honeys vitality..in compassion to some other foods that supposedly hokd up well to higher heats.
Generally best to stick with comb honeys. Its my understanding that honey is difficult to get into containers without heating somewhat and only a few operations are really doing it. The Really Raw brand supposedly is unheated and that seems to be available most places. Never seemed high quality in comparison to the dark comb I get sometimes..but it seems to be fairly solid usually and not runny. If the honey doesn't specifically say unheated, you can rest assured that it is not truly 'raw'...unless its from a local farmer who doesn't label specifics.
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honey can be certified raw and still be heated...theres quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that.
True, and I'm well aware of the heat from centrifuging honey, but even Aajonus acknowledges that some non-comb honeys can be unheated and uncentrifuged and he personally recommends some of them (such as Really Raw), and truly raw honey can also apparently be liquidy. Why else would the same company sell both liquidy and thick honeys that they claim are both unheated (such as with Heavenly Organics)? Also, thickness doesn't guarantee total rawness, as perhaps you'll agree. I've tried several comb honeys and found that I fared better on raw fermented honey (I'm talking thick honey, not mead, which is an alcoholic beverage), so for me the fermentation aspect seems to be beneficial. Most of the comb honeys I tried were sickeningly sweet and basically inedible for me. Those tend to be light and clear and very liquidy. The best comb honey I tried had some of the darker color that Tyler talks about and was thicker and looked more like what one would expect a honeycomb in the wild to look like, but it was rather expensive and I haven't seen a fermented version of comb honey.
Here is an example of a liquidy honey that the maker claims is unheated:
Our rare, organic, unheated, Wild Forest Honey is collected from wild beehives by traditional groups of tribal honey foragers living in the virgin forestlands of central India. http://www.heavenlyorganics.com/productsho/honey_forest.aspx
(http://www.heavenlyorganics.com/imagesWeb/product-forest-honey.jpg)
They also sell a very thick, dense, creamy unheated honey.
Here's a honey brand I haven't tried whose seller claims their liquid honey is cold processed by hand:
http://simplyrawhoney.com/Simply.Raw.michigan.honey.html
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True, and I'm well aware of the heat from centrifuging honey, but even Aajonus acknowledges that some non-comb honeys can be unheated and uncentrifuged and he personally recommends some of them (such as Really Raw), and truly raw honey can also apparently be liquidy. Why else would the same company sell both liquidy and thick honeys that they claim are both unheated (such as with Heavenly Organics)? Also, thickness doesn't guarantee total rawness, as perhaps you'll agree. I've tried several comb honeys and found that I fared better on raw fermented honey (I'm talking thick honey, not mead, which is an alcoholic beverage), so for me the fermentation aspect seems to be beneficial. Most of the comb honeys I tried were sickeningly sweet and basically inedible for me. Those tend to be light and clear and very liquidy. The best comb honey I tried had some of the darker color that Tyler talks about and was thicker and looked more like what one would expect a honeycomb in the wild to look like, but it was rather expensive and I haven't seen a fermented version of comb honey.
Here is an example of a liquidy honey that the maker claims is unheated:
(http://www.heavenlyorganics.com/imagesWeb/product-forest-honey.jpg)
They also sell a very thick, dense, creamy unheated honey.
Here's a honey brand I haven't tried whose seller claims their liquid honey is cold processed by hand:
http://simplyrawhoney.com/Simply.Raw.michigan.honey.html
Yeah I wasn't trying to say definitively that liquid = not raw, only that most honeys are indeed heated. I'm not an expert but read betwen the lines on that last one.
"Never heat pasteurized (flash heated to 145 to 160 degF)."
"Always preserve raw honey’s healthful antioxidants, important enzymes, vitamins, anti-microbial constituents, pollen and other beneficial attributes by never heating crystallized above 109 degF for our customers that prefer liquid honey year round."
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honeycomb is still sugar..nothing magical about it. Never tried the fermented stuff.
personally I can't figure out how one would even get liquid honey into a jar out of a comb, obviously its strained in some way if it doesn't have chunks of stuff in it and unless it says specifically I can only guess they are using heat.
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I'm not an expert but read betwen the lines on that last one.
"Never heat pasteurized (flash heated to 145 to 160 degF)."
Yeah, I'm skeptical about that one too, though they do say "While cold processing the raw honey by hand is time consuming, it ensures honey’s natural goodness is included in every bottle. We would not have it any other way and neither should you!"
honeycomb is still sugar..nothing magical about it.
Surely you'll agree that it's also more than just pure sugar. Whatever the reason, I fare a lot better when eating raw fermented honey than refined cane sugar, conventional heated honey, mildly heated centrifuged honey, or supposedly truly unheated honey that isn't fermented, with unheated honey being second best (least worst) among those options for me.
personally I can't figure out how one would even get liquid honey into a jar out of a comb, obviously its strained in some way if it doesn't have chunks of stuff in it and unless it says specifically I can only guess they are using heat.
I figure most probably strain it at least a little to get the bee parts out, though some claim to not strain it. From what I've read, they apparently pick out the bee parts. I don't think straining has a bearing on ease of getting it out of the combs. Presumably there are methods that were used before the invention of honey centrifuges, right? This looks like one such method, using an extractor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEmxNDPHBlE
There are even some who claim that centrifuges don't heat the honey, including some beekeepers:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?254815-Raw-fermented-honey-fan&s=91681ebcb09a4e9ebb37e37ae7e9aaa5
This guy uses a hand-cranked extractor, though he uses an electric heated knife to remove the cappings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3Eh4Ka_1Bo&NR=1
The cappings are my favorite part of the honeycomb, so it's a shame to me that they tend to be discarded. My ideal honey would probably be fermented honey that includes the cappings, comb and brood of both the honeycomb and broodcomb, at least some of each of the whole lot, preferably heavy on the cappings, and I've heard that the brood are quite tasty too.
Whatever the reason, I do best with the Really Raw fermented honey. Maybe it has nothing to do with the lack of centrifuging, maybe it's just he microbiota, I don't know, but whatever the reason it seems to be better tolerated by me than any other honey I've tried.
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Yeah, I'm skeptical about that one too, though they do say "While cold processing the raw honey by hand is time consuming, it ensures honey’s natural goodness is included in every bottle. We would not have it any other way and neither should you!"
right, they say numerous times that they do not heat it for a particular process...but then they mention numerous times about not heating past X etc...that is typical shady type wording people generally should look for. It could be that they do not use heat at all getting their honey from comb to bottle..but doubtful.
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Surely you'll agree that it's also more than just pure sugar. Whatever the reason, I fare a lot better when eating raw fermented honey than refined cane sugar, conventional heated honey, mildly heated centrifuged honey, or supposedly truly unheated honey that isn't fermented, with unheated honey being second best (least worst) among those options for me.
sorry, what I meant is the comb is just the purest form of honey, but when you get it in its raw form its not necessarily going to work magic and not create symptoms just because it is raw. If you don't have problems with one honey but had problems with others or honeycomb..that they all are sugar and not necessarily a factor of it being raw, not saying that honey is just sugar, without minerals, enzymes and such. Its true that some are very sensitive to whether a honey is truly unheated or not so that wasn't what I was saying either.
certainly Aajonus makes claims that truly unheated honey does not raise insulin? or something similar, but to my knowledge anything that is sweet (other then stevia I believe) is food for fungus and yeast etc..
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the straining doesn't necessarily imply heating I guess, what I was saying was I don't even know how they get it into a jar, nevermind through a strainer at 65-70 F or so...
I think when i've had the Really Raw brand in the past...I can't pour it already removed at room temp...and being in a comb...
Now that I think of it, the guy that sells me dark almost black honeycomb has liquid clean honey in a jar that he sells as raw. he only sells in the winter but I'll ask him.
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right, they say numerous times that they do not heat it for a particular process...but then they mention numerous times about not heating past X etc...that is typical shady type wording people generally should look for. It could be that they do not use heat at all getting their honey from comb to bottle..but doubtful.
Quite possible, at any rate it's academic because the vids show how you can extract the honey without using heat and I doubt that every honey seller that claims their honey is unheated actually heats it. I suspect that most probably use heated decapping knifes, but that doesn't seem like it would have a big impact, and it does seem to be true that some don't use centrifuges that are alleged to mildly heat the honey. The first video shows that it's possible to use an unheated decapping scraper and thus not have any heating at all besides maybe a teensy bit of heating when the extractor spins the combs around.
sorry, what I meant is the comb is just the purest form of honey, but when you get it in its raw form its not necefssarily going to work magic and not create symptoms just because it is raw. If you don't have problems with one honey but had problems with others or honeycomb..that they all are sugar and not necessarily a factor of it being raw, not saying that honey is just sugar, without minerals, enzymes and such. Its true that some are very sensitive to whether a honey is truly unheated or not so that wasn't what I was saying either.
True and the fermentation seems to be the key factor for me, though it's hard to know for sure.
certainly Aajonus makes claims that truly unheated honey does not raise insulin? or something similar....
Yes I have seen that claim from him, though I haven't found that to be the case for me, but I'm not convinced that a limited amount of blood glucose or insulin spikes are all that unhealthy for most people who don't have pathological insulin resistance.
but to my knowledge anything that is sweet (other then stevia I believe) is food for fungus and yeast etc..
I have found that standard unheated honey increases my dandruff and dry skin, but fermented raw honey has the opposite effect. Eating fermented raw honey has been the most effective thing I've tried for reducing dandruff, better than pine tar shampoo, zinc shampoo, coconut oil and other external treatments. I suspect that the microbiota in the honey kill dandruff-causing yeast, but it's just a guess.
the straining doesn't necessarily imply heating I guess, what I was saying was I don't even know how they get it into a jar, nevermind through a strainer at 65-70 F or so...
The vids show how.
I think when i've had the Really Raw brand in the past...I can't pour it at room temp.
Correct, it looks like most beekeepers for raw brands may use an extractor. Plus, hives may be warmer than room temperature and the honey may thus be more liquid when it's originally extracted than after it's been sitting in a jar for a while and it may also crystallize in the jar, further thickening it. I've noticed that in videos showing hunter gatherers and chimps getting honey and honeycomb from hives and eating it, that the honey is rather liquid in the wild hive. It tends to drip from the combs as HGs eat it and it gets their hands messy. It also is liquid enough so that chimps can dip sticks into it and the honey coats the sticks with a liquid film that they lick off.
Now that I think of it, the guy that sells me dark almost black honeycomb has liquid clean honey in a jar that he sells as raw. he only sells in the winter but I'll ask him.
Good idea. Maybe you can put to rest the question of whether all honey sold in liquid form is heated and if some is indeed raw, get an explanation for why some raw honeys that are sold are liquid while most are thick.
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Quite possible, at any rate it's academic because the vids show how you can extract the honey without using heat and I doubt that every honey seller that claims their honey is unheated actually heats it. I suspect that most probably use heated decapping knifes, but that doesn't seem like it would have a big impact, and it does seem to be true that some don't use centrifuges that are alleged to mildly heat the honey. The first video shows that it's possible to use an unheated decapping scraper and thus not have any heating at all besides maybe a teensy bit of heating when the extractor spins the combs around.
I have found that standard unheated honey increases my dandruff and dry skin, but fermented raw honey has the opposite effect. Eating fermented raw honey has been the most effective thing I've tried for reducing dandruff, better than pine tar shampoo, zinc shampoo, coconut oil and other external treatments. I suspect that the microbiota in the honey kill dandruff-causing yeast, but it's just a guess.
The vids show how.
Correct, it looks like most beekeepers for raw brands may use an extractor. Plus, hives may be warmer than room temperature and the honey may thus be more liquid when it's originally extracted than after it's been sitting in a jar for a while and it may also crystallize in the jar, further thickening it. I've noticed that in videos showing hunter gatherers and chimps getting honey and honeycomb from hives and eating it, that the honey is rather liquid in the wild hive. It tends to drip from the combs as HGs eat it and it gets their hands messy. It also is liquid enough so that chimps can dip sticks into it and the honey coats the sticks with a liquid film that they lick off.
welll in fairness, I don't think those vids posted till your edit which was after I responded, but since the first seems to be a non-chemistry-grade centrifuge (uses centrifugal force to extract honey) and the other uses a heated knife I think its safe to stay its not an academic observation. I'd still say that unless a product can claim it is never heated (which some do) then even the mentions of 'cold-packing' and such might not be enough if one wants really pure honey. I wasn't saying that 'unheated' labeling is to be questioned per se..only that the other company you posted wasn't seemingly being honest with its terminology.
I hardley even eat honey so it might seem like fretting over nothing, but just for the sake of accuracy...just like steaming foods or whatever...the stock 'raw' answer has to do with whether one would put their hand in the steaming pot. I personally would not want to grab hold of that heating knife. Whether it is 100% necessary to use or one can crank the extractor at low speeds isn't the issue..its whether these specific companies are doing it or not. If a company is not even trying to call their product 'unheated' then the odds are it is not. and they use heat whenever they can for the highest temps they can get away with. What I said was I wasn't sure exactly how they were employing no heat at all, in the case of Honey Pacifica or Really Raw etc...and do it profitably, not wondering how one could get some honey out of the comb...
when honey gets above room temps..its definitely really liquidy and gooey. They can heat the rooms and such as well. Granted the temps might not be damaging, but again if they are not specifying 'unheated'..and just going by 109 deg as 'raw' its fair game to do any number of things.
Theres been a few people mentioning that even non-fermented honeys work great for their candida. It could be that fermented or not..maybe it does not to ferment in the digest track like fresh fruits and the beneficial properties absorbed more efficiently. Of course like anything, fermenting the food beforehand should make it even more digestible and assimilable and perhaps bacterial that can break down internal crap, so that seems like something worth trying for some.
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welll in fairness, I don't think those vids posted till your edit which was after I responded, but since the first seems to be a non-chemistry-grade centrifuge (uses centrifugal force to extract honey) and the other uses a heated knife I think its safe to stay its not an academic observation. ...
Good call, KD, I think you're right. I thought those were different devices from fancy centrifuges like this one: (http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/slides/011.jpg), but apparently those are just primitive centrifuges that also might heat the honey. I still haven't seen any extraction process that doesn't involve a centrifuging extractor. Aajonus does claim that some honey sellers don't use centrifuges, right?
Honey Pacifica apparently also uses a spinning extractor/centrifuge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkOvRsLSf6E, based on their own video, despite calling their product "cold packed" and "unheated honey." Rather disappointing, but not hugely surprising and I don't know how big a deal it really is.
The most bizarre thing about the whole process is that most beekeepers and honey sellers discard the best parts of the honey hive--the cappings and stray bee grubs/larvae and when the honey gets really good (fermented) most of them say it has "gone bad" and throw it out. The wasi'chu are so difficult to understand.
It would be supercool if fermented raw comb honey were sold, though it would probably be mega expensive.
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(http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/slides/011.jpg)... The wasi'chu are so difficult to understand.
I never saw a honey centrifuge before. Thanks. As for the Wasihu, it's not only 1984 but beyond that. Don't centrifuges get warmer when they're spinning?
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Yes, that was what Aajonus reported he found when he used a heat gun to measure the temp of the honey in a centrifuge.
What happened in 1984, or are you referring to George Orwell's book?
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are you referring to George Orwell's book?
Yes.
Do you know what temperatures they might reach?
I got honey from one place. The honey looked heated. I gave it away. I spoke to the company and they said although they don't heat it, the centrifuge brings it up to 127F.
Now I tried honey from another place that swears they don't heat it. They centrifuge. I asked if they use any kind of thermometer. They said no. I asked does the temperature get above 96F. They said probably. I asked above 105F. They said they're sure not. The honey appears more heated than the 127F. Funny, this last one started with responding to me that they don't boil the honey when I asked if it's raw. They are not raw fooders. They were cooking soup and mentioned enjoying daily coffee.
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I don't remember, sorry.
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Is comb honey really always raw? I have seen plenty of comb honey that seems like it was heated honey to me, never saw crystalized comb honey.
If you live in NYC and want a large selection of comb honey, there is a store in Brooklyn, on Atlantic Ave, next to I believe Union street or is it Carol? Anyways, on Atlantic Ave, not far from Fulton St. and the Manhattan Bridge. It's called Oriental imports I believe, it's right across the street from another store called Sahadis.
Oriental imports is amazing and they have tons of varieties of comb honey.
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Is comb honey really always raw? I have seen plenty of comb honey that seems like it was heated honey to me,
Same here. Most of the honey comb I have tried has been somewhat disgusting to me, more like pancake syrup in flavorless wax than truly raw, unfiltered honeycomb. Even centrifuged, unfermented raw honey has been better, in my experience.
never saw crystalized comb honey.
I have, but it was hard to find and I had to order it via the Internet at a high price. Tyler apparently has a good local source, but I have yet to see a good local source here during the last few years. When I asked a local honey maker if they would consider selling truly raw honey comb they unfortunately dismissed the suggestion.
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Same here. Most of the honey comb I have tried has been somewhat disgusting to me, more like pancake syrup in flavorless wax than truly raw, unfiltered honeycomb. Even centrifuged, unfermented raw honey has been better, in my experience.
I have, but it was hard to find and I had to order it via the Internet at a high price. Tyler apparently has a good local source, but I have yet to see a good local source here during the last few years. When I asked a local honey maker if they would consider selling truly raw honey comb they unfortunately dismissed the suggestion.
It's unfortunate but true that many a farmer can be extremely idiotic.
Oh gosh wouldn't it just be a terrible thing if they actually managed to make some money for once?
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Never buy honeycomb from abroad or in a glass jar, and make sure it is local(produced within 300 km, if possible).
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Why would comb honey be heated? That's just more work.
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If you live in NYC and want a large selection of comb honey, there is a store in Brooklyn, on Atlantic Ave, next to I believe Union street or is it Carol? Anyways, on Atlantic Ave, not far from Fulton St. and the Manhattan Bridge. It's called Oriental imports I believe, it's right across the street from another store called Sahadis.
Oriental imports is amazing and they have tons of varieties of comb honey.
Hey I know that spot!
Why would comb honey be heated? That's just more work.
I don't know the answer, but think of pasteurizing juices and stuff. Has cost and time involved there too. I assume if they do heat it, its shelf time with comb, but honey seems to have a decent shelf time as is. I generally wouldn't buy comb from the store, only keepers who specifically say they just cut it and put it in the package, to be 'safe'.
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Hee hee, raw honey has a longer shelf life than any of us do!
perhaps not comb, but I think it does too!
There was raw honey that was unearthed out of the pyramids that was still good.
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Why would comb honey be heated? That's just more work.
The reason for selling most things is because people think they'll make more money selling it that way. Whether they really will is another question, but they are apparently convinced that they will. I think that intentionally heating any honey is idiotic, but honey marketers don't go by my opinion, they go by what they think will generate the most profit for them. Ignorance seems to be part of the problem. There's a beekeeper forum where not one of the beekeepers were aware that fermented honey is a good thing and that they could sell it for more money, not a reason for throwing it out. Some of them didn't even seem to be aware that raw honey is FAR superior to heated honey and that anyone who bothers to take one taste of raw honey instantly knows this. I find this stupefying coming from beekeepers. WTH??? ???
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The reason for selling most things is because people think they'll make more money selling it that way. Whether they really will is another question, but they are apparently convinced that they will. I think that intentionally heating any honey is idiotic, but honey marketers don't go by my opinion, they go by what they think will generate the most profit for them. Ignorance seems to be part of the problem. There's a beekeeper forum where not one of the beekeepers were aware that fermented honey is a good thing and that they could sell it for more money, not a reason for throwing it out. Some of them didn't even seem to be aware that raw honey is FAR superior to heated honey and that anyone who bothers to take one taste of raw honey instantly knows this. I find this stupefying coming from beekeepers. WTH??? ???
Do any of them heat their comb before they sell it?
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Apparently so. Tyler has warned about this repeatedly in the past, as I recall, and gave an additional warning above. It would explain why all the comb honey I've seen for sale in local stores and farmers markets was thin, runny, pale, clear, and looked and tasted like commercial heated honey. International shipments can also be heated, apparently. I was able to order some comb honey shipped within the US that arrived in very good shape. Look for comb honey that is made by the bees right in the container, so that there's no heating by the beekeeper at all, and try to find one that is not pale and clear but has more of a mottled appearance, with dark spots, and looks more like wild honey. I think Tyler and I may have provided example images in the past, but maybe I'm dreaming. I think the "pure" appearance without mottling and such is one possible reason why honey sellers heat even most honey comb. It's like the way people like to buy pure-red apples instead of mottled apples. This is yet another case where it pays not to follow the preferences of the ignorant masses.
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I had no idea. That's some scammy shit.
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PP is being far too pessimistic. The raw honeycomb I get in farmer's markets is often pale and clearish. That is due to the type of plants the bees feed on, such as borage, and the honeycomb is perfectly raw. Darker honeycombs are due to bees eating other kinds of plants such as heather. True, though, processing/heating the honeycomb usually leads to lighter colours.
Buying honeycomb from abroad is a waste of time, since they virtually always pasteurise it to take into account any potential laws in the country being exported to.
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Honey made from fire clover is insanely expensive and almost 100% clear. Doesn't taste as good I hear either. People are willing to pay for "purity" I guess.
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Thanks for the additional details, Tyler. I guess I must have gone overboard with the language, but I thought it was important to warn people that not all comb honeys are raw or even good tasting. I know there are naturally lighter and thinner honeys, but the raw light jarred honeys I've tried have tended to be much tastier and not as overly sweet as the light comb honeys. I mainly was trying to emphasize that not all comb honeys are raw, thick, or tasty. Overall I've had much better luck with the jarred honeys than the comb honeys. The only comb honeys I've had any good experience with have been the ones where the bees make the comb right in the container and thus the comb honeys are not heated or processed at all. It seems like more than just coincidence. It was thanks to your tips that I searched for and found a comb honey that was made by the bees right in the container and had a darker and more mottled appearance along the lines of what you had recommended. As a matter of fact, I think I even looked for an American comb honey that looked as close to the image you shared as I could find. It was much tastier and thicker than any other comb honey I had tried before and it wasn't sickeningly sweet like all the other comb honeys I had tried.
Darker honeycombs are due to bees eating other kinds of plants such as heather. True, though, processing/heating the honeycomb usually leads to lighter colours.
Yes, I remember you saying these points and this is what I meant. I should have mentioned that the darker honeycombs also likely taste better because of the plants that the nectar comes from, thanks for pointing that out too. It's a good idea to experiment anyway and try a variety of honeys and see which ones you prefer. There's no single simple rule like all comb honeys are good or that you'll necessarily like all honeys that are claimed to be raw or unheated. Honey making is a tricky business that even most beekeepers don't seem to fully understand. At the beekeeper forum I've seen beekeepers ridicule their customers for preferring unheated or fermented honey. I felt like saying to them, "Don't you want the extra money you can charge for it--are you against making more money?" Even though one of the beekeepers was raving about how he was making more money by making unheated honey, others continued to ridicule it. And they think their customers are stupid? Give me a break!
Buying honeycomb from abroad is a waste of time, since they virtually always pasteurise it to take into account any potential laws in the country being exported to.
Thanks, I knew it was something like that, but couldn't remember the precise detail. So it's heated to meet potential foreign importation laws, presumably with the idea of killing off potential organisms, right? I remember buying from an American company partly on the basis of your tip.
Given that many honey makers, including such as Honey Pacifica, aren't even aware that their honeys are apparently not truly raw (at least by Aajonus' standard), it can be difficult to find the best honeys just going by claims. I don't even know for sure if centrifuging is really that damaging. I only have people's claims to go by on that. So I also try different honeys and compare how my body reacts. If my body does best with a particular honey and I like it, does it really matter that much how it's made? :shrug: I do use the claims to help weed down the candidates (if they don't even claim that their honey is raw, that's a quick and easy way to weed them out), but in the end it comes down to the actual testing of the product on myself. In other words, so-called self experimentation.
Honey made from fire clover is insanely expensive and almost 100% clear. Doesn't taste as good I hear either. People are willing to pay for "purity" I guess.
I think you're onto something there. Maybe people think that clearer looking honey is more "pure" and thus buy it based on looks rather than taste? Like the way people buy shitty tasting apples because they look more uniformly red and feel firm. If you follow Tyler's tips like I did, I think you should be able to find a tasty and truly raw comb honey. It was expensive, though. IIRC, I think Tyler very fortunately has a local seller that provides dark and tasty raw comb honey at a reasonable price. I wish I had something like that locally.
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Hi, I came across this forum post the other day and thought I might be able to help answer some questions. I work for Honey Pacifica as their website developer, live down the street from them, and yes it’s one of the most delicious jobs I’ve ever had.
“Different plant nectars (flowers) apparently produce different honeys of different thicknesses. Usually honey makers and sellers strive for consistency within a particular variety.”
Each hive can have vastly different thickness of honeys, even if they are going to the same flowers. As we extract and bottle the honey there can be differences in the thickness of the honey from jar to jar. There are so many variables involved it can be tough to get the exact thickness every time. Even the taste of a honey can change from year to year. Like any crop some years are better than others based on rainfall, sunlight, the bees, the soil and other factors. If you prefer thick honey, it’s best to note that on your order.
“One thing to watch out for is whether they use a centrifuge or not.”
As you can see from our video that was posted a page back, we do indeed use a centrifuge to spin the honey out of the comb. The centrifuge itself doesn’t create heat, but some beekeepers heat the centrifuge to make the honey thin and speed up the extraction process. We do not heat any of our honey in the extractor. I’ll take a measurement of the honey coming out of the extractor next time it’s running.
“Honey can be certified raw and still be heated...there are quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that”
Indeed this is a problem; you need to trust the beekeeper you are getting your honey from. Make sure your definition of raw matches the beekeepers definition. We view raw as unheated, unprocessed and unfiltered.
“The Honey gets hot during shipping”
Depending on where you live this could happen during the summer. If you’re really worried about the summer heat, stock up in the winter with a 60 lb. pail. Honey never spoils so you can always have it on hand throughout the year. Also buying in bulk will get you the best price.
"The most bizarre thing about the whole process is that most beekeepers and honey sellers discard the best parts of the honey hive--the cappings and stray bee grubs/larvae and when the honey gets really good (fermented) most of them say it has "gone bad" and throw it out."
Our customers asked us for this a few years ago so we have Cold Packed Chunky Honey with cappings, royal jelly and propolis mixed in. This is about as raw as it gets.
“Why would comb honey be heated? That's just more work.”
Seems silly to me, this would add a lot of time to simply cutting it up. I agree with the thoughts on foreign honeycomb and they might have to do this due to import/export laws.
“Some of them (beekeepers) didn't even seem to be aware that raw honey is FAR superior to heated honey and that anyone who bothers to take one taste of raw honey instantly knows this.”
We still have a fairly large market that love our honey but can’t taste the difference or afford the additional price of the Cold Packed honey. While this is slowly changing we continue to have both Regular Raw and Cold Packed. Our Regular Raw is gradually heated over 2-3 days in a box with light bulbs to allow for ease of bottling, while preserving the quality of honey. Yes both types of honey take a lot of time to bottle but we take pride in only offering the best tasting raw honey around.
If you have any more questions or comments I’d be happy to answer them. Thanks for reading through this all if you made it this far. :D
Best,
Tim Footdale
Honey Pacifica
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After this topic came up, I attended a monthly meeting of the local bee guild in my area. There were about 60 people there, ranging from large commercial beekeepers to amateur backyard enthusiasts. I asked about my runny honey concerns, as well as my curiosity about fermented honey.
On the runny honey topic, I got the same answer as Tim just provided - honey can be truly raw and still be runny, depending on other factors.
When I asked about deliberately fermented honey, I got the response that such honey would be dangerous to consume (as dangerous as raw meat? LOL). Well, I asked for and got their honest opinion, so I'm not sitting in judgment here.
I talked to the amateurs, too, and listened to their questions to the experts, and I decided that I would never eat honey from an amateur beekeeper because they "try" things that may later prove to be bad ideas.
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On the runny honey topic, I got the same answer as Tim just provided - honey can be truly raw and still be runny, depending on other factors.
Yes indeed. The idea that honey must be thick to be raw appears to be one of the common misguided myths of the Internet.
When I asked about deliberately fermented honey, I got the response that such honey would be dangerous to consume (as dangerous as raw meat? LOL). Well, I asked for and got their honest opinion, so I'm not sitting in judgment here.
LOL I continue to be amazed by the ignorance of beekeepers. I'm tempted to enter the profession myself to put this nonsense to rest and to capitalize on the best honey of all--fermented honey, which traditional Africans well understand. What utter nonsense to call fermented honey dangerous. It's the best by far of all. Where do they get these inanities? They've obviously never tried it. American beekeepers have so much to learn before they are fit to lick the shoes of African beekeepers. It's a disgraceful scandal.
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American beekeepers have so much to learn before they are fit to lick the shoes of African beekeepers.
What do you expect? The African beekeeping tradition has an unbroken line going back probably 5000 years or more, back into very paleo-eating times there, in many cases. The American beekeeping tradition has been coopted by Big Ag and general Western scientific ignorance/arrogance.
Have you tried the Honey Pacifica Cold Packed Chunky honey, Phil? I've been enjoying the Really Raw fermented honey this week that you suggested. It's quite nice, I just wish it was even more heavily fermented.
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As you can see from our video that was posted a page back, we do indeed use a centrifuge to spin the honey out of the comb. The centrifuge itself doesn’t create heat, but some beekeepers heat the centrifuge to make the honey thin and speed up the extraction process. We do not heat any of our honey in the extractor. I’ll take a measurement of the honey coming out of the extractor next time it’s running.
Excellent, thanks and thanks for the info. How do they heat the centrifuge, does it have electrical wiring in it? I think someone might have mentioned that once somewhere.
Depending on where you live this could happen during the summer. If you’re really worried about the summer heat, stock up in the winter with a 60 lb. pail. Honey never spoils so you can always have it on hand throughout the year. Also buying in bulk will get you the best price.
Good idea, thanks.
Our customers asked us for this a few years ago so we have Cold Packed Chunky Honey with cappings, royal jelly and propolis mixed in. This is about as raw as it gets.
Cool. Your customers are smart.
Have you tried the Honey Pacifica Cold Packed Chunky honey, Phil?
I ordered some today.
I've been enjoying the Really Raw fermented honey this week that you suggested. It's quite nice, I just wish it was even more heavily fermented.
You might like mead then.
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I ordered some today.
Me too..
Re: mead, do you think if I just add a little more water to the fermented honey, that it will ferment more strongly?
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No, I tried that. If you do have success, though, please do share it. I think the main problem was insufficient heat. I wonder if there's some sort of apparatus of reasonable cost which would enable one to store honey with mild added heat to bring it up to fermentation-encouraging temperature without damaging it by overheating it and thus ferment honey at home?
I did also look into what's involved in making mead, to see if I could make a low-heated or perhaps even near-raw version of mead along the lines of traditional cultures like the Maasai, who reportedly just warm their mead near a fire, rather than heat it directly and at higher temps as in modern mead processing, but the complexity involved caused me to decide to put that off to a future project.
Some of the honey is distributed among the people of the enkang' and the rest is used to make mead. The girl's mother mixes honey with water and pieces of osukuroi (Aloe myriacantha) in a large gourd (ormosori) and puts it near, but not too close, to the fire to ferment. This mead is called 'enaisho e siret'. From Drinking: Anthropological Approaches, by I. de Garine, Valérie de Garine, p. 92
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Best,
Tim Footdale
Honey Pacifica
Sweet.
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Tests Show Most Store Honey Isn't Honey : Ultra-filtering Removes Pollen, Hides Honey Origins by Andrew Schneider | Nov 07, 2011
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/ (http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/)
In the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration says that any product that's been ultra-filtered and no longer contains pollen isn't honey. However, the FDA isn't checking honey sold here to see if it contains pollen....
Concocting a sweet-tasting syrup out of cane, corn or beet sugar, rice syrup or any of more than a dozen sweetening agents is a great deal easier, quicker and far less expensive than dealing with the natural brew of bees.
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No, I tried that. If you do have success, though, please do share it. I think the main problem was insufficient heat. I wonder if there's some sort of apparatus of reasonable cost which would enable one to store honey with mild added heat to bring it up to fermentation-encouraging temperature without damaging it by overheating it and thus ferment honey at home?
I would think just putting it on top of your refrigerator, or over a heating vent would probably work.
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Excellent, thanks and thanks for the info. How do they heat the centrifuge, does it have electrical wiring in it? I think someone might have mentioned that once somewhere.
I talked to our extractor this week and there are a few ways beekeepers extract honey with heat. In one situation some use steam in the extractor to heat the honey, which makes it easier to pump into barrels.
The other option is to use a heat exchanger, which is a hot water jacket hose that heats the honey and makes it easier to pump into barrels. The reason most beekeepers do this is the pumping is the slowest part of the extraction process. Since we don't use heat we have to take an extraction break occasionally for the pump to catch up and give us room for more extracted honey in the catch tray. These are only two of the many ways, each beekeeper has their own idea and tools that works best for them.
Here is a decent rendering of a tube heat exchanger. The Honey would be in the middle and hot water on the outside.
(http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/t/tu/tubular_heat_exchanger.png)
Tim
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Interesting, thanks Tim.
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No prob. Let me know what you think of the chunky honey.
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Sorry, but so far it's a bit too sweet and strong tasting for my taste, and I start to get the same nausea I get when I eat too much of certain other honeys (I can eat unlimited amounts of the raw fermented honey without nausea, which is less sweet and contains bacteria that may help somehow, I guess, though even that honey took some adapting to before I could eat large quantities in one sitting) though it's possible I might adapt to that over time, and I didn't expect it, but there's too much wax for my taste. I guess the optimal for me would be a bit more wax and stuff mixed in than is in the Really Raw brand honey, but not as much as the Honey Pacifica chunky honey. I could see people who have a real sweet tooth and love wax candy liking it. Next I'll try mixing some of it with the fermented honey.
Strangely, the plastic lids of the two jars I bought were both cracked despite them being packed in what looked like more cushioning than I thought necessary and more than the other honey brands I've ordered. Maybe the lids are particularly susceptible to cracking?
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Sorry, but so far it's a bit too sweet and strong tasting for my taste, and I start to get the same nausea I get when I eat too much of certain other honeys (I can eat unlimited amounts of the raw fermented honey without nausea, which is less sweet and contains bacteria that may help somehow, I guess, though even that honey took some adapting to before I could eat large quantities in one sitting) though it's possible I might adapt to that over time, and I didn't expect it, but there's too much wax for my taste. I guess the optimal for me would be a bit more wax and stuff mixed in than is in the Really Raw brand honey, but not as much as the Honey Pacifica chunky honey. I could see people who have a real sweet tooth and love wax candy liking it. Next I'll try mixing some of it with the fermented honey.
Thanks for trying it, the sweetness and taste can vary from batch to batch, it's a collection of chunky parts from all our honeys combined. I'll ask about fermented honey, I'm not sure if it something we get enough of to offer as a product.
Strangely, the plastic lids of the two jars I bought were both cracked despite them being packed in what looked like more cushioning than I thought necessary and more than the other honey brands I've ordered. Maybe the lids are particularly susceptible to cracking?
I let Danny our shipper know that they broke during shipping, we use those for all our larger glass jars. Hopefully it was just a bad batch.
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Thanks for coming in Tim, I'm glad to have caught your attention!
I would also be interested in trying this fermented honey if at some point it will be offered.
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Thanks for trying it, the sweetness and taste can vary from batch to batch, it's a collection of chunky parts from all our honeys combined.
Thanks for the explanation. I tried it again the next day and it tasted somewhat better to me, so I apparently already adapted a bit to it.
I'll ask about fermented honey, I'm not sure if it something we get enough of to offer as a product.
Thanks. I've been surprised by how much of a difference in both taste and health benefits that fermenting the honey makes. It seems to be largely lost knowledge, with only the Weston A. Price Foundation, Really Raw and some traditional peoples being aware of its benefits.
There are mead-makers in the USA and mead is actually experiencing a bit of a revival, but I don't get the benefits from mead that I get from raw fermented honey. Maybe American mead could be better if it weren't directly heated. Traditional mead, such as of the Maasai is just warmed near a fire, rather than directly heated, and probably doesn't reach as high temperatures. I also doubt that it's filtered like American meads.
I let Danny our shipper know that they broke during shipping, we use those for all our larger glass jars. Hopefully it was just a bad batch.
Thanks.