Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: rawrock2 on September 13, 2008, 12:40:42 pm
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Hi all, I'm glad to be here and I'm glad we all share the same diet! So, about me. I live in Hawai'i, I just moved here from S. Korea. I was on the raw omnivore diet for about two months when I lived in Korea. Now that I am back in Hawaii I have switched back to the Filipino diet here in Hawai'i. (tons of rice, cooked beef, pork, fish, vegetables) I switched back because of a lack of knowledge. I'm so depressed because I don't have available here fresh raw meat like I did in Korea. I don't know what to do. Before I did the 2 month raw omnivore, I was a vegan for almost 2 years. So switching to raw paleodiet cold turkey was no problem for me. I ate plenty of cow liver, cow heart, cow brain on occasion, raw pork, and pig blood. (all raw of course) So now you know a bit about me.
My questions to all you experts here are:
1. I KNOW that we are only supposed to eat RAW foods. So that's what I want to do. What do I do now? I have no way of getting fresh raw meat that hasn't been irradiated or tampered with by the government. Should I simply go back to eating ONLY raw foods/meats by going to the store and just buying meat from the meat section?
2. I ask this because I am retiring to the Philippines next September and I want to start a small farm there. On my land there I already have about 15 different fruit trees and a few plants/wild plants/herbs that are growing there. (I'm only growing vegetables that can be eaten raw right out of the ground) I would like to know what can I study to know what common knowledge/common sense to our ancestors regarding everything about food? Specifically, things like what to do immediately after killing livestock/wild game to make it last for a long time (to eat it raw later), how to prepare a kill, eating it right after you kill it, skin it, make the raw meat last for weeks, etc etc. I mean I want to learn it all kinda like if I was put in the jungle naked and had to survive, stuff like that (I ask this because I think this is what we all should know, if the world ever collapses)
P.S. -I'm posting this in different places to get different responses just in case someone sees this somewhere else. :)
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Wow, retiring in the Philippines and farming.
Nice plan. You are married to a Filipina?
Maybe we can meet up in the future.
If you live near the ocean in the Philippines, then you get a lot of fresh sea food then raw / wild meat will be easy for you in the form of sea food.
Goats and cows in the Philippines are generally grass fed. Since you will be in your own farm, you can raise your own organic chicken, ducks, turkeys so your supply of raw organic meat is assured.
Plus you can have as many coconut trees (coconut juice, milk, meat) as you want and all those yummy Philippine organic / wild fruits.
Where will your farm be located?
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Everyone goes through an initial phase where they think they can't find any suitable high-quality grassfed/organic meats. This is nonsense. There's always some farm nearby which stores it or a far away one which delivers it to your door. Here's one from the eatwild.com site:-
http://www.eatwild.com/products/hawaii.html
Also ask people at the Pangaia website - they're a Primal Diet-oriented raw-animal-food-eating community in Hawaii who will know exactly where to get hold of high-quality raw meats:-
http://www.pangaia.cc/raw.html
Also, search on Google under "hawaii grassfed organic meats" etc. You'll inevitably find something. Most people in continental US buy via delivery from online grassfed farms such as Slanker's or NorthStar Bison, but they presumably won't deliver to hawai(yet check them out, just in case I'm wrong).
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Hi good samaritan, no I'm not married yet but my girlfriend is from Ilocos Norte. (you probably already know this since I live in Hawai'i... mostly all Ilocanos here) She is from Baccara and her land is there. (that's the land I mentioned above) Actually the land I plan to buy will probably be about 15-20 min. away from her house. (I don't want to be too close to her family but within a reasonable distance) I plan on buying 20 acres (10 hectares = $80K) of land near the ocean. Yes, I will raise pigs, horses, goats, cows, ducks, turkeys, chickens. (can I raise any kind of animal I want on my farm in PI like lamb, ox, bison, sheep, elk, deer??) (also can I keep a mongoose as a pet in PI?)
I trying to learn as much as I can about farming/wilderness, killing/preparing meat before I go there so I'll be somewhat ready. You see, I want to be able to kill an animal and eat it raw right then but also I need to know what I have to do to the meat, carcass, organs, blood so that it will last as long as possible (weeks or more) and not become rotten.
Tyler, I guess I should have been a bit more specific when I said Hawai'i. I'm on the island of O'ahu not the Big Island which is where Pangaia is located. The paleo diet scene is alive there. It is almost non-existent here on O'ahu. This is because O'ahu is overcrowed and urban while the Big Island is very green and rural. I have actually been in contact with Pangaia since February of this year. I plan to reside at Pangaia for 1 month to see if I like it. The place in the eatwild link you posted is on Molokai yet another island. There are no stores here on the island of O'ahu that I know of yet...
With that said, should I just eat the meat from a regular store? (that's probably better than cooking it....?) I could as get the meat delivered here but wouldn't that be very expensive compared to purchasing it here on island? If you do get it delivered then I presume you just thaw it out and eat it?
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Tyler, I guess I should have been a bit more specific when I said Hawai'i. I'm on the island of O'ahu not the Big Island which is where Pangaia is located. The paleo diet scene is alive there. It is almost non-existent here on O'ahu. This is because O'ahu is overcrowed and urban while the Big Island is very green and rural. I have actually been in contact with Pangaia since February of this year. I plan to reside at Pangaia for 1 month to see if I like it. The place in the eatwild link you posted is on Molokai yet another island. There are no stores here on the island of O'ahu that I know of yet...
With that said, should I just eat the meat from a regular store? (that's probably better than cooking it....?) I could as get the meat delivered here but wouldn't that be very expensive compared to purchasing it here on island? If you do get it delivered then I presume you just thaw it out and eat it?
You should get it delivered to your door. I can't imagine that it's hideously expensive to order grassfed meat from a farm via boat. Most such deliveries are frozen, it's only chilled if you specifically request it. Otherwise, depend on raw, wildcaught seafood for lean protein(should be easy in Hawaii), and just order raw animal fats like raw suet/marrow/tongue/muscle-fat etc.
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Tyler, I stand corrected. ;D I just found a store which sells free-range chicken, grass-fed beef, and other organic meats. Guess I spoke too soon, anyway I'm glad I found it. For anyone else on O'ahu here is the link:
http://www.oahuhealthguide.com/directory/display.htm?listID=5749&lspecial=featured&hhsid=990f2e21edf3e15f90d228b3c99ff9eb
http://kokua.coop/ :)
Still looking for resources for foundational knowledge in preparing kills etc.
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Hey rawrock! Welcome!
Good to hear you found a good source of meats! :)
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Hi good samaritan, no I'm not married yet but my girlfriend is from Ilocos Norte. (you probably already know this since I live in Hawai'i... mostly all Ilocanos here) She is from Baccara and her land is there. (that's the land I mentioned above) Actually the land I plan to buy will probably be about 15-20 min. away from her house. (I don't want to be too close to her family but within a reasonable distance) I plan on buying 20 acres (10 hectares = $80K) of land near the ocean. Yes, I will raise pigs, horses, goats, cows, ducks, turkeys, chickens. (can I raise any kind of animal I want on my farm in PI like lamb, ox, bison, sheep, elk, deer??) (also can I keep a mongoose as a pet in PI?)
First of all, foreigners cannot buy land in the Philippines. It's either you put your land in the name of your girlfriend, or you setup a corporation where you own 40% and distribute the 60% to a few filipinos you can trust, make sure the secretary is your confidant.
Yes I believe you can raise any animal you want in your land, it is your land. Philippines is a free country. Yes, there really is freedom to raise any kind of animal in your land, especially in the provinces. I have seen lamb, ox, sheep and deer in the Philippines, I have not seen bison and elk.
I think there is a Philippine retirement program by the government encouraging foreign retirees.
Wow, when your plan does materialize, remember to invite me over so I can taste your exotic meat! Deer, bison and elk are exotic to me. :)
It's quite a long way via bus for me to travel from Manila, too tiring by car.
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You should get it delivered to your door.
As I try to spread the word about my diet one thing I always have a hard time explaining is what to do about the cost of going back to our natural diet the right way. (i.e. grass-fed, no antibiotics, etc.) As we all know eating like this is very expensive. Going back to what I asked earlier in this thread, for someone who can't afford to have it delivered to their door, should they just eat raw meat for a regular supermarket then? Wouldn't that be better than cooking it anyway? I'm want to find out how to apply this way of living to 'most basic person'. (cheapest way possible to live this way in the city with no time)
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There are dozens of websites detailing how to cut up deer carcasses:-
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/natres/06504.html
Just Google.
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As I try to spread the word about my diet one thing I always have a hard time explaining is what to do about the cost of going back to our natural diet the right way. (i.e. grass-fed, no antibiotics, etc.) As we all know eating like this is very expensive. Going back to what I asked earlier in this thread, for someone who can't afford to have it delivered to their door, should they just eat raw meat for a regular supermarket then? Wouldn't that be better than cooking it anyway? I'm want to find out how to apply this way of living to 'most basic person'. (cheapest way possible to live this way in the city with no time)
Lex's solution, before he discovered a suitable raw grassfed meat product, was to take 30 large(?) capsules a day of cheap, low-quality cod-liver oil, while eating grainfed meat, so as to ensure high enough omega-3 fats in the right ratio. However, I STRONGLY advise you to talk to Lex(ask him on his journal on the forum or via personal message:- he buys from Slanker's(In Texas?) and pays FAR less than he did on a standard cooked-junk-food diet - he's happy to also buy some good-quality 100% grassfed meat/organ-meat mix designed for pets, all of which makes things very cheap indeed.
Of course, if you don't have a credit-card, you won't be able to order from farms far away, so you should keep on looking for local farms in your immediate area. Also, if you're next to the coast, you could get hold of wildcaught fish.
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So, basically eating any raw meat is ok. (i.e. from the supermarket) ::)
You know, I've heard about how bad cooking is for us but really it all boils down to adaptation. I'm not sure but I don't think it would be recommended for someone who travels frequently to consume raw meat when in different countries. If all the propoganda about eating raw meat and the dangers associated with it are basically the same thing everywhere (i.e. different coutries as well) then I could be wrong here. This is why I question specifically the ability to consume raw meat from anywhere like supermarkets, etc.
If raw meat period is ok, then I'm going to encourage others here (Hawai'i) to just try and eat any raw meat. I thought meat that had flies, maggots, on it couldn't be consumed but it can along with the creepies (protein). ;D I see no need in jumping through the extra hoops to get "better meat". (I can't justify it to my friends either) They follow my lead. If I eat it and live then they will try it accordingly.
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So, basically eating any raw meat is ok. (i.e. from the supermarket) ::)
You know, I've heard about how bad cooking is for us but really it all boils down to adaptation. I'm not sure but I don't think it would be recommended for someone who travels frequently to consume raw meat when in different countries. If all the propoganda about eating raw meat and the dangers associated with it are basically the same thing everywhere (i.e. different coutries as well) then I could be wrong here. This is why I question specifically the ability to consume raw meat from anywhere like supermarkets, etc.
If raw meat period is ok, then I'm going to encourage others here (Hawai'i) to just try and eat any raw meat. I thought meat that had flies, maggots, on it couldn't be consumed but it can along with the creepies (protein). ;D I see no need in jumping through the extra hoops to get "better meat". (I can't justify it to my friends either) They follow my lead. If I eat it and live then they will try it accordingly.
Grainfed meat is NOT OK. I only gave Lex's example re not being able to find grassfed meats as a short-term possibility while finding better sources. Low-quality cod-liver oil is largely useless as a supplement, IMO. Just get grassfed meat, if you can't afford it(unlikely), just go in for Intermittent Fasting.
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just go in for Intermittent Fasting
Sorry, I don't think I could ever not feed myself if I'm hungry on purpose. That would totally go against my theme of being natural. I don't believe in fasting.
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Sorry, I don't think I could ever not feed myself if I'm hungry on purpose. That would totally go against my theme of being natural. I don't believe in fasting.
Judging from recent scientific reports, you'll live longer on IF than if you just eat to your heart's content.
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Judging from recent scientific reports, you'll live longer on IF than if you just eat to your heart's content.
Maybe who knows. I look to nature for my dietary answers not science. I don't know of any animals that intentionally fast so why should I? Sometimes I think we make diet more complicated than it really is. For the most part, just kill it and eat it. Raw.
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I don't know of any animals that intentionally fast so why should I?
I believe animals will refuse to eat food for days on end when they are healing from trauma. For instance, when you bring a pet home from the vet after some sort of surgery, they will most usually hide themselves for days, only coming out occasionally to get some water.
I think the theory is that fasting allows the body to perform some sort of deep cleaning on tissues that have been damaged.
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I believe animals will refuse to eat food for days on end when they are healing from trauma.
Yes, but I don't believe they are doing that of their own volition. I said intentionally. It is because of the pain that they don't eat and because of the shame that they hide themselves. (dogs anyway)
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Yes, welcome! Sorry I am so late.
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Yes, but I don't believe they are doing that of their own volition. I said intentionally. It is because of the pain that they don't eat and because of the shame that they hide themselves. (dogs anyway)
You're missing the point. It's irrelevant as to whether animals fast intentionally or not. Many species are forced to fast for long periods(eg:- crocodiles who only eat during the wet season each year and can survive for months without food,or tigers and wolves who have to go without food for days/weeks on a constant basis because prey is scarce etc.). Fasting is such a common occurrence among wild animals, since they often don't have the instant access to foods that we have in human society.
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You're missing the point. It's irrelevant as to whether animals fast intentionally or not. Many species are forced to fast for long periods(eg:- crocodiles who only eat during the wet season each year and can survive for months without food,or tigers and wolves who have to go without food for days/weeks on a constant basis because prey is scarce etc.).
What 'point' am I missing? Animals are forced to go without food for periods of time. That's what I'm saying. It is NOT their intention not to eat rather because the food isn't available or some other reason. Intermittent fasting is not by force, it is by choice. That's the point. You list animals that can survive without food and write that off as being a common occurrence among wild animals. THAT is irrelevant to fasting. Just in case you weren't aware that there are humans that don't eat everyday or for days at a time. Is this going to lengthen their life?
I'm not implying that fasting is bad/unhealthy, all I'm saying is that it is unnatural. That's all. If you want to starve yourself, go right ahead that's your business. If an animal is hungry and there is food available, then they are going to eat. No question about it. They are not going to pass the meal up in hopes of living longer. Kinda defeats the purpose, right?
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What 'point' am I missing? Animals are forced to go without food for periods of time. That's what I'm saying. It is NOT their intention not to eat rather because the food isn't available or some other reason. Intermittent fasting is not by force, it is by choice. That's the point. You list animals that can survive without food and write that off as being a common occurrence among wild animals. THAT is irrelevant to fasting. Just in case you weren't aware that there are humans that don't eat everyday or for days at a time. Is this going to lengthen their life?
I'm not implying that fasting is bad/unhealthy, all I'm saying is that it is unnatural. That's all. If you want to starve yourself, go right ahead that's your business. If an animal is hungry and there is food available, then they are going to eat. No question about it. They are not going to pass the meal up in hopes of living longer. Kinda defeats the purpose, right?
You still haven't got the point. Fasting is natural because it's a natural part of Nature(ie most wild animals, unlike humans, have far fewer food-supplies available throughout their life, and that this is, therefore, the "natural" state of things for them), so it's a part of their life. Plus, judging from the recent scientific studies on mice and rats, it's been confirmed that mice/rats on Intermittent Fasting(and caloric restriction) DO live much longer than mice/rats given 3 meals a day:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction#Intermittent_fasting_as_an_alternative_approach
In the case of humans, in Palaeo times, many humans had to go without food for long periods, due to scarcity of prey. It's only in modern times, that an unnatural, plentiful supply of food is available - which is one reason for the rising levels of obesity etc., nowadays.
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You still haven't got the point. Fasting is natural because it's a natural part of Nature(ie most wild animals, unlike humans, have far fewer food-supplies available throughout their life, and that this is, therefore, the "natural" state of things for them), so it's a part of their life.
I do get what I think you're trying to say but I'm not sure if you fully do though. The 'natural' state of things for some is a plentiful amount of food. So, wouldn't it make sense to eat and not fast for those individuals? Going off what you're saying, the animals don't always have food so naturally they don't (can't) eat. Therefore, if you have an abundance of food and you're hungry, wouldn't not eating it be unnatural. Fasting (i.e. intermittent fasting) means abstaining from food. (by choice) Actually after looking at the definition of 'fasting', what is going on in the wild is NOT fasting. It is not by choice. What if the animals die of starvation. Are we to say the period that elapsed between the last time they had a meal and their death was a period of fasting. Are the people in Africa who don't have enough food to eat going on extended fasts?
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I do get what I think you're trying to say but I'm not sure if you fully do though. The 'natural' state of things for some is a plentiful amount of food. So, wouldn't it make sense to eat and not fast for those individuals? Going off what you're saying, the animals don't always have food so naturally they don't (can't) eat. Therefore, if you have an abundance of food and you're hungry, wouldn't not eating it be unnatural. Fasting (i.e. intermittent fasting) means abstaining from food. (by choice) Actually after looking at the definition of 'fasting', what is going on in the wild is NOT fasting. It is not by choice. What if the animals die of starvation. Are we to say the period that elapsed between the last time they had a meal and their death was a period of fasting. Are the people in Africa who don't have enough food to eat going on extended fasts?
I don't see the difference between intentional and unintentional fasting. Either way, the animals or humans aren't eating as much as before. As regards humans doing IF, they are simply recreating the conditions their ancestors had in more "natural" Palaeolithic times - as a result, they become healthier. As regards (certain) African countries and fasting, actually, their health-problems are not so much due to fasting(fasting, of itself, would prevent them from getting Western conditions like obesity and related diseases like diabetes), but due to depending hevaily on unhealthy antinutrient-rich "foods" like cassava(which contains cyanide, inside, incidentally, and needs to be processed to have the stuff removed). By the way, I couldn't help noticing that the people in Kenya were much healthier than Westerners, even though they had less access to food(albeit relatively healthy food).
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This is the weirdest discussion.
I think what your saying is that the human mind and the ability to make conscious decisions is unnatural. Choosing when to eat and when not eat even in the abundance of food.
I think using the conscious mind is a very 'natural' thing for a human to do.
Andrew (isn't 'fasting' his just 'not eating!')
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I do fasts myself.
When I've been bad (I ate non-rpd food), I fast.
When I feel crappy, I fast.
My tools are: 3 day coconut juice fast, 3 orange juice fast or 14 day orange juice fast.
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Personally, I think we ought to eat if we're hungry and if food is available. Fasting and hungry is just not right, in my book...done it and never will do it again unless I DON'T have a choice. I agree with rawrock.
I've eaten raw meats (including organs and seafood) from supermarkets, non-organic, grain-fed. Some actually tasted pretty delicious. Never had any problem. Did not see a difference (health or taste) with the time when I was eating exclusively organic grass-fed meats (bison, beef). Plus, it's cheaper.
My 2 cents...
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"In the case of humans, in Palaeo times, many humans had to go without food for long periods, due to scarcity of prey. It's only in modern times, that an unnatural, plentiful supply of food is available - which is one reason for the rising levels of obesity etc., nowadays."
that's a statement made by a contemporary human being from his current angle -- so it seems
who really knows what 'paleo times' looked like?
i've heard that cro-magnon developed their sophisticated brains not in the desperation of survival angst but playfully while eating abundant enjoyable food...
1 may choose 1's favorite hypothesis or theory, of course
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"In the case of humans, in Palaeo times, many humans had to go without food for long periods, due to scarcity of prey. It's only in modern times, that an unnatural, plentiful supply of food is available - which is one reason for the rising levels of obesity etc., nowadays."
that's a statement made by a contemporary human being from his current angle -- so it seems
who really knows what 'paleo times' looked like?
i've heard that cro-magnon developed their sophisticated brains not in the desperation of survival angst but playfully while eating abundant enjoyable food...
1 may choose 1's favorite hypothesis or theory, of course
You're overlooked a few things:- Palaeo humans didn't have guns and even bows and arrows and traps came very late in the Palaeolithic era(c.60,000 years ago by anthropologists' estimation due to the available evidence). So killing prey would have been difficult before that time, plus there was always the possibility(and fear of) injury - and that's not forgetting harsh climatic conditions(eg:- winter/Ice-Ages/bad weather such as storms) etc. which would have greatly depleted the food-supply or made it too difficult to hunt game effectively. So, by default, Palaeo-era hunters would have been forced to fast frequently, whether they liked it or not.
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how about shellfish, small finfish, seaweed, snail, frog, small bird, egg...?
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how about shellfish, small finfish, seaweed, snail, frog, small bird, egg...?
Good point. However, Palaeolithic evidence indicates that, in most areas, either medium-sized or larger prey were consumed(eg:- equines(horses), bovines(aurochs) etc.) Searching for very small prey during those times when traps hadn't been invented yet, would require too much energy re hunting and too little return in terms of raw flesh obtained(eg:- frogs' legs), plus eggs are usually laid by wild birds only seasonally and usually in relatively inaccessible places such as trees or cliff-faces etc.
Shellfish/seaweed is another issue. Some people claim that shellfish was only initially consumed in relatively recent times(20,000 years ago), others claim 300,000 years ago or more. But, regardless, shellfish would only be relevant to those tribes right next to coastal areas.
Deep-sea fish would definitely only have been consumed much later on when humans developed boats etc. Not sure re river-fish.
I don't deny that the above could have been a part of a Palaeo diet, but they would have been a more minor part than aurochs-flesh etc.
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I think a relevant argument here is that if paleolithic man had to go without food for short periods of time frequently, then its most likely that over a long period of time (a million years?) natural selection would have provided him with a digestive adaptation to doing just that. Those that became too weakened from intermittent fasting would not have been able to hunt, eat, survive, and of course, reproduce. Those that did would have been our ancestors.
This argument presupposes that food was not always readily available. It might have been, and it might not have been. If it was not, then I think its safe to say that intermittent fasting is something the human body can easily cope with and might even be beneficial.
And for anybody that has ever been sick (which is just about everyone) how hungry were you? Some sicknesses might actually cause ravenous hunger prompting the person to eat and eat and eat. This would most likely be looked upon as instinct; the sick person is doing exactly what the body tells him or her because thats what it needs. Now how about the rest of the sicknesses that make the thought of food absolutely disgusting? Whenever I'm sick, eating is the last thing I'd like to do. Many people would contend that the sickness makes the body resistant to food. This assumption, IMO, is based on nothing but speculation. It is just as easy (maybe even easier) to say that the body does not want food because that will not help it. And why should the body, which normally does an excellent job of making the most of what it gets, fail to provide the proper signals when we're sick. I don't think instinct is selective. The fact that most people vomit upon eating while sick seems to indicate that their bodies do not need food, and that eating might make the healing process worse or slower. It would almost suggest that fasting for short periods of time under the proper conditions is necessary.
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"Shellfish/seaweed is another issue. Some people claim that shellfish was only initially consumed in relatively recent times(20,000 years ago), others claim 300,000 years ago or more. But, regardless, shellfish would only be relevant to those tribes right next to coastal areas."
Actually, the lack of sea coast evidence in human history has to do with the fact that the oceans were up to 300 feet lower during the Ice ages. Most of the evidence for the paleolithic lies under water.
One of the earliest civilizations occurred in South America when the people discovered how to make nets of wild cotton. The resulting efficiency led to a highly developed culture.
Shellfish is so easy to gather that is would be absurd to assume that it wouldn't have been incorporated into diets very early. Merely copying other predators would have taught humans how to eat shellfish.
Many claims about what people did or didn't eat have little basis in fact. The lack of cited evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.
TruthHunter
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I don't see the difference between intentional and unintentional fasting. Either way, the animals or humans aren't eating as much as before. As regards humans doing IF, they are simply recreating the conditions their ancestors had in more "natural" Palaeolithic times - as a result, they become healthier.
Fasting is intentional. (by choice) That's it. There is no unintentional fasting. Understanding that is key here. Just because you don't have food does NOT mean you are fasting.
"In the case of humans, in Palaeo times, many humans had to go without food for long periods, due to scarcity of prey. It's only in modern times, that an unnatural, plentiful supply of food is available - which is one reason for the rising levels of obesity etc., nowadays."
that's a statement made by a contemporary human being from his current angle -- so it seems
I agree. Where is this available plentiful supply of food? As I mentioned before there are too many starving people in the world for a statement like that to be made. Also, an abundance of food does not equate to unhealthiness by any means.
I've eaten raw meats (including organs and seafood) from supermarkets, non-organic, grain-fed. Some actually tasted pretty delicious. Never had any problem. Did not see a difference (health or taste) with the time when I was eating exclusively organic grass-fed meats (bison, beef). Plus, it's cheaper.
Yeah, I plan on only ordering foods online that I can't find at the supermarket. Other than that, I'm just buying regular meat from my local stores here. Honestly, unless one goes to where the supplier is and sees for themselves, you never really know if it is what they say it is anyway. (i.e. grass-fed, etc) Could be a big scam. (like the organic movement in some ways)
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Fasting is intentional. (by choice) That's it. There is no unintentional fasting. Understanding that is key here. Just because you don't have food does NOT mean you are fasting.
that's a statement made by a contemporary human being from his current angle -- so it seems
I agree. Where is this available plentiful supply of food? As I mentioned before there are too many starving people in the world for a statement like that to be made. Also, an abundance of food does not equate to unhealthiness by any means.Yeah, I plan on only ordering foods online that I can't find at the supermarket. Other than that, I'm just buying regular meat from my local stores here. Honestly, unless one goes to where the supplier is and sees for themselves, you never really know if it is what they say it is anyway. (i.e. grass-fed, etc) Could be a big scam. (like the organic movement in some ways)
Fasting is intentional. (by choice) That's it. There is no unintentional fasting. Understanding that is key here. Just because you don't have food does NOT mean you are fasting.
that's a statement made by a contemporary human being from his current angle -- so it seems
I agree. Where is this available plentiful supply of food? As I mentioned before there are too many starving people in the world for a statement like that to be made. Also, an abundance of food does not equate to unhealthiness by any means.Yeah, I plan on only ordering foods online that I can't find at the supermarket. Other than that, I'm just buying regular meat from my local stores here. Honestly, unless one goes to where the supplier is and sees for themselves, you never really know if it is what they say it is anyway. (i.e. grass-fed, etc) Could be a big scam. (like the organic movement in some ways)
Well, we can argue about this forever. To me, the goal is the important point:- both fasting and starving achieve the same goal, lack of a sufficient food-supply. As regards an abundance of food, it has led to an avoidance of certain kinds of malnutrition(eg:- beri beri/kwashiorkor), but has also led directly to modern diseases such as diabates type 2.
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Well, we can argue about this forever. To me, the goal is the important point:- both fasting and starving achieve the same goal, lack of a sufficient food-supply.
What 'goal'? When a person is starving they are not achieving any goal! Have you ever been starving because you couldn't eat not because you choose not to eat? Also, that statement is false. Starving = lack of a sufficient food supply, fasting = there is sufficient food available but one chooses not to partake it.
As regards an abundance of food, it has led to an avoidance of certain kinds of malnutrition(eg:- beri beri/kwashiorkor), but has also led directly to modern diseases such as diabates type 2.
Ridiculous. How has the amount of food available related to disease? I would think it's what you eat plus you can't assume that people are eating themselves to gluttony.
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What 'goal'? When a person is starving they are not achieving any goal! Have you ever been starving because you couldn't eat not because you choose not to eat? Also, that statement is false. Starving = lack of a sufficient food supply, fasting = there is sufficient food available but one chooses not to partake it.
Ridiculous. How has the amount of food available related to disease? I would think it's what you eat plus you can't assume that people are eating themselves to gluttony.
I've starved, years ago(during my student days), for days because I couldn't eat(I had no money whatsoever and was without other means/resources).
Re too much food:- It's a fact that too much food available makes it very tempting indeed to overeat, thus leading to obesity, which leads to type 2 diabetes etc. etc. One only has to look at the US - Americans constantly refer to the ubiquity of fast-food restaurants everywhere selling junk-food in large, jumbo-sized portions, as being the primary reason for the vast rise in obesity among US citizens since WWII.
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I've starved, years ago(during my student days), for days because I couldn't eat(I had no money whatsoever and was without other means/resources).
So what goal did you achieve then, hum? I bet when food was available, you eat and were happy.
Re too much food:- It's a fact that too much food available makes it very tempting indeed to overeat, thus leading to obesity, which leads to type 2 diabetes etc. etc. One only has to look at the US - Americans constantly refer to the ubiquity of fast-food restaurants everywhere selling junk-food in large, jumbo-sized portions, as being the primary reason for the vast rise in obesity among US citizens since WWII.
You said it right! -> "makes it very tempting" That does NOT mean people are or will overeat. Now, you narrow it down to junk food instead of food in general. Now admittedly I loathe junk food but even junk food is alright in the right portions. The danger lies in consuming too much of it too often.
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So what goal did you achieve then, hum? I bet when food was available, you eat and were happy.You said it right! -> "makes it very tempting" That does NOT mean people are or will overeat. Now, you narrow it down to junk food instead of food in general. Now admittedly I loathe junk food but even junk food is alright in the right portions. The danger lies in consuming too much of it too often.
The goal is, of course, meaningless, as fasting or starving result in the same condition. As regards the issue of junk-food, sure a toxin in smaller amounts is less harmful than one in larger amounts, but that's irrelevant. You haven't answered my point that people link the overabundance of food to health-problems. This doesn't apply just to junk-food, anything eaten in excess is bad for you, there's a condition called hyponatraemia which is caused by drinking too much water. In short, most people tend to make greater use of resources when they're in abundance, this is only logical.
*Mind you, this is a pointless argument, as we're arguing from different premises/definitions*
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As regards the issue of junk-food, sure a toxin in smaller amounts is less harmful than one in larger amounts, but that's irrelevant.
If that is irrelevant, then why bring up junk-food in the first place which is obviously bad for you.
You haven't answered my point that people link the overabundance of food to health-problems. This doesn't apply just to junk-food, anything eaten in excess is bad for you, there's a condition called hyponatraemia which is caused by drinking too much water. In short, most people tend to make greater use of resources when they're in abundance, this is only logical.
That is not a point you're making. That's your opinion. We all know that too much of anything is bad for you. Where have you proven that people are overeating just because they have an abundance of food?
we're arguing from different premises/definitions
What premises would that be?
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Where have you proven that people are overeating just because they have an abundance of food?
I think that would be the obesity rates. If the food wasn't available the people couldn't overeat. ;D I guess you can't really prove cause and effect though.
That being said, I tend to agree with you. If I'm hungry and there's food available, I'm gonna eat. I tried IF for a while and I do better eating throughout the day.
There is a large difference between the abundance of paleo foods and junk foods. Saying that simply the abundance of food causes obesity and diabetes I don't agree with. I may be wrong, but no one's gonna get diabetes from eating too much raw meat.
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I think that would be the obesity rates.
No way! So, the sole cause of obesity is over consumption of foods?
I guess you can't really prove cause and effect though.
That's what I'm saying, it can not be proved at all. Here we can make assumptions all day long but in the end who knows.
Mind you, this is a pointless argument,
Yes, because the bottom line is that fasting is NOT natural no matter how you look at it. So, it shouldn't be written off or taken as something that is natural. I continue to delve into this because my dietary foundation is rooted in being natural. That is why I follow the raw paleo diet. I don't listen to science or this or that. They (scientists) are often wrong and don't even agree among themselves a lot of the time. Mother nature has all of the answers we need pertaining to diet. It is important to clearly identify the place of fasting here since so many others too are in search of that natural answer (diet) as well. Yes, they can fast but they should know that doing so is NOT natural.
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Yes, because the bottom line is that fasting is NOT natural no matter how you look at it. So, it shouldn't be written off or taken as something that is natural. I continue to delve into this because my dietary foundation is rooted in being natural. That is why I follow the raw paleo diet. I don't listen to science or this or that. They (scientists) are often wrong and don't even agree among themselves a lot of the time. Mother nature has all of the answers we need pertaining to diet. It is important to clearly identify the place of fasting here since so many others too are in search of that natural answer (diet) as well. Yes, they can fast but they should know that doing so is NOT natural.
Fasting is as about as natural as playing a musical instrument, buying food at a market, or using utensils. Fasting is usually rooted in spiritual concerns, like vision quests, rights of passage, or preparing for a hunt. It allows the practitioner to contemplate things other than food. I don't know how far back in time and place it has been practiced, but I do believe that many hunter-gatherers in our time have gone in for choosing to abstain from food for a time, for whatever reasons. So in that regard, it isn't really a dietary practice, even though temporary, periodic fasting has shown beneficial.
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No way! So, the sole cause of obesity is over consumption of foods?
Are you serious? So what else can cause obesity if its not related to eating too much?
I don't listen to science or this or that. They (scientists) are often wrong and don't even agree among themselves a lot of the time. Mother nature has all of the answers we need pertaining to diet.
I know that earlier you mentioned that you look to nature for your answers, not science. You appear to have an overall distrust of science. But what about anthropologists who are looking into the things this forum believes in? Are they not scientists, and are they not gleaning answers from historical questions? You've obviously come to the realization that eating raw is right? How did you get there? Did you deduce this by yourself, or did a chance reading of an anthropologists (scientists) article bring you to that conclusion? Chances are that scientists' studies of paleolithic man have influenced you. I doubt you'd be on this forum if anthropology never existed.
Yes, because the bottom line is that fasting is NOT natural no matter how you look at it.
You're kind of right. 'Fasting' is a conscious choice, and as a word, its applied only to human decision-making. This might not be natural. But going without food for short periods of time is. Like Tyler pointed out, animals still do it and most likely we did it a very long time ago. To animals now and people in paleolithic times, this is natural. Intermittent fasting is simply the recreation of a natural scenario that our ancestors were acquainted with. I fear you're getting hung up on semantics. Who cares what you call it? It happened in the past, and it happens now.
It is important to clearly identify the place of fasting here since so many others too are in search of that natural answer (diet) as well. Yes, they can fast but they should know that doing so is NOT natural.
Who placed you in the position of final arbiter on what is and what isn't 'natural'. To my knowledge, the only things that can be considered natural regarding humans are those things that humans have been doing a long time, say on the scale of millions of years. Eating whenever they wanted did not happen in paleolithic times. It didn't even happen for the majority of neolithic times. To me this is 'natural'. Going without food for a few days would also be 'natural' in the sense that it was something that was dealt with regularly on a long time scale.
Mother nature has all of the answers we need pertaining to diet.
Yet Mother Nature is not a person or any such entity that readily yields answers to any who ask. Her answers are gleaned from study, and the studiers are anthropologists, or scientists, and the occasional lay person with the time and intellect to do their own research.
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Are you serious? So what else can cause obesity if its not related to eating too much?
Yes, I'm very much serious. Here in the Hawaiian isles, there are plenty of people who are considered 'obese' because of their weight yet they do NOT overeat and diet often. For them, it is hereditary. Maybe a google search on 'causes of obesity' would provide some enlightenment here. I just did a very quick search and what popped up:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/27/health/webmd/main1757772.shtml ::)
You appear to have an overall distrust of science.
I do distrust science for the most part.
Chances are that scientists' studies of paleolithic man have influenced you. I doubt you'd be on this forum if anthropology never existed.
You couldn't be more wrong here. Science has NOT influenced me to be here on this forum. My life circumstances changed my view of diet. Btw, you don't know anything about me including what brought me here.
I fear you're getting hung up on semantics. Who cares what you call it?
I care and obviously you do too since you're here engaged in this discussion.
Who placed you in the position of final arbiter on what is and what isn't 'natural'.
You did obviously. I made a statement, it's up to you how you take it.
To my knowledge, the only things that can be considered natural regarding humans are those things that humans have been doing a long time, say on the scale of millions of years. Eating whenever they wanted did not happen in paleolithic times. It didn't even happen for the majority of neolithic times. To me this is 'natural'.
You don't know what happened then. You weren't there, were you? Neither was I so that is the reason I don't claim to know what went on then like it is fact.
Her answers are gleaned from study, and the studiers are anthropologists, or scientists,
your opinion, not fact. If you want to listen to your scientists go ahead, no-one is saying that is wrong. Personally, I don't need nor desire an anthropologist to prescribe a dietary outline for me. I am perfectly able to do so myself.
I do believe that many hunter-gatherers in our time have gone in for choosing to abstain from food for a time, for whatever reasons. So in that regard, it isn't really a dietary practice,
True, everyone may have times when they don't want to eat but their is a reason present for them to not want to eat. This is not dietary practice (i.e. fasting) but because of an ailment or whatever other reason. The moment they are back to normal they will in fact eat if they hungry.
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Maybe a google search on 'causes of obesity' would provide some enlightenment here. I just did a very quick search and what popped up:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/27/health/webmd/main1757772.shtml ::)
I do distrust science for the most part.
::)
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You don't know what happened then. You weren't there, were you? Neither was I so that is the reason I don't claim to know what went on then like it is fact.your opinion, not fact.
If you weren't there in Paleolithic times, and you don't know what went on, then how can you ever know what is natural? You can't, you must assume, especially if you won't follow archaeological and/or anthropological evidence. And really, if your diet must be strictly natural, then you must go hunt and gather your food directly.
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Reading that "study" was pretty funny, I must say. Decreased smoking? Come on now.
Most of the things on that list pertain directly to lifestyle choices, which affect the metabolism, which affects the amount of calories one needs to intake to gain weight. It still boils down to eating too much.
The other things on the list can only show correlation but not causation, such as the age and race thing.
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Maybe a google search on 'causes of obesity' would provide some enlightenment here. I just did a very quick search and what popped up:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/27/health/webmd/main1757772.shtml ::)
I do distrust science for the most part.
::)
That link is for his reference not mine. I know that obesity is not only caused by eating too much food. I see it everyday.
If you weren't there in Paleolithic times, and you don't know what went on, then how can you ever know what is natural?
I never referenced Paleolithic times so I guess this comment isn't for me. My reference to natural means here and now not thousands of years ago.
And really, if your diet must be strictly natural, then you must go hunt and gather your food directly.
Not that you said it or anything but I never stated my diet must be strictly natural, so... :P
Reading that "study" was pretty funny, I must say. It still boils down to eating too much.
Well, that's your opinion then. You see with science and diet it's pick or choose, a toss-up IMO. I think that is what this forum is for. For us to share our experiences and learn from each other. Science doesn't bring me here, the fact that we all desire to pursue a raw paleo diet does. That is why I tend to ignore the scientific matters posted here.
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You know, actually I don't hate all of science only when science involves diet. I really like to build things and I love math hence my plans to major in mechanical engineering. (but I digress ;D)
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Maybe who knows. I look to nature for my dietary answers not science.
Yes you did state that you look to nature. So if you want nature's diet, then hunt, fish and gather it. The store or online shipping is definitely not natural. Otherwise, you are perhaps interested in playing word games. Try logic, it works better.
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20 acres in the Phillipines is only $80k American? I'm looking at plantations in Brazil, 30 and 70 acres, which are about $80k and $170k I think. I preferably want land that can be pastured with animals, will grown some plant foods and also on the water (ocean preferably) to fish.
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Yes you did state that you look to nature. So if you want nature's diet, then hunt, fish and gather it. The store or online shipping is definitely not natural. Otherwise, you are interested in playing word games. Try logic, it works better.
Yes, I said "I look to nature". That does NOT mean 'strictly natural'. The way you interpret that is up to you. I clearly stated what the point is so no word playing games here. How dare you make an assumption about my intention here, you don't know me!! >:( (let's not make this personal...)
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I continue to delve into this because my dietary foundation is rooted in being natural. That is why I follow the raw paleo diet. I don't listen to science or this or that.
Here, you said it again. There is nothing personal in my remarks. You are simply angry because I am a thinker and I caught your inconsistencies and pointed them out to you.
Think and wonder, wonder and think. How much water can 55 elephants drink? And you don't have to stop. You can think about schlop! Schlop, schlop, beautiful schlop. Beautiful schlop with a cherry on top!
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Otherwise, you are interested in playing word games. Try logic, it works better.
You said 'you are interested in playing word games' That equals me, rawrock2 no-one else, does it not? Did you catch that?
I take issue with what you said because throughout this discussion no-one has made any accusations as to the intentions of anyone else. That is until your remark above. You don't know what I'm interested in doing and you try logic. Why are you advising me to try it?!
So if you want nature's diet, then hunt, fish and gather it. The store or online shipping is definitely not natural.
Anyway, you are deviating from what we are addressing in the first place. It seems you are attempting to take it to a personal level by attacking my personal method of carrying out my diet. That also has not been an issue yet and it should stay that way. Stay on the topic, none of this attacking my diet. That's what I mean when I say let's not make this personal. What I do personally is none of your business and vice versa. Is fasting natural or not. That's the topic if you were wondering. It is not whether fasting is healthy, makes you live longer, or anything else.
I continue to delve into this because my dietary foundation is rooted in being natural. That is why I follow the raw paleo diet. I don't listen to science or this or that.
Where does it say 'strictly natural' in there? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't, does it?!
20 acres in the Philippines is only $80k American?
Somewhere around there. You should definitely look in the Philippines. Great place!
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You said 'you are interested in playing word games' That equals me, rawrock2 no-one else, does it not? Did you catch that?
I take issue with what you said because throughout this discussion no-one has made any accusations as to the intentions of anyone else. That is until your remark above. You don't know what I'm interested in doing and you try logic. Why are you advising me to try it?! Anyway, you are deviating from what we are addressing in the first place. It seems you are attempting to take it to a personal level by attacking my personal method of carrying out my diet.
Then I apologize if my words have singled you out. I should have modified the sentence with "perhaps" or "it seems", and the lack of such a modifier is a mistake on my part.
But it seems to me that in this thread you are very interested in nit picking over fasting by choice and fasting by force. I have read all the particulars. I see that you wish to follow nature. That is great and very encouraging to me personally. (We must be somewhat personal to state beliefs on forums such as this, musn't we?). I simply am showing that our diet can never match that of our paleo ancestors, and that methods to replicate it, while perhaps not instinctually "natural," may in fact be the best choice for us as a species.
And for now, as a courtesy to you, I will refrain from posting in this thread again, at least for a time. Adieu.
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If that is irrelevant, then why bring up junk-food in the first place which is obviously bad for you. That is not a point you're making. That's your opinion. We all know that too much of anything is bad for you. Where have you proven that people are overeating just because they have an abundance of food?
What premises would that be?
This discussion is going nowhere. It's a simple fact that the vast majority of Americans ARE overeating given the abundance of food. Not merely an opinion. And, as regards fasting, there are so many scientific studies proving the benefits re prolonged lifespan etc. for caloric restriction and Intermittent Fasting, that I really don't see the point in arguing about definitions of what fasting is or isn't.
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There is a large difference between the abundance of paleo foods and junk foods. Saying that simply the abundance of food causes obesity and diabetes I don't agree with. I may be wrong, but no one's gonna get diabetes from eating too much raw meat.
People may not get diabetes from eating too much raw meat, but they can get other health-problems from eating too much. One of the major criticisms of the Primal Diet was that many people took literally Aajonus' instructions in his We Want To Live book(1997 edition) to eat dozens of small meals a day, involving a huge amount of food each day - as a result, many people(myself included) suffered from eating too much raw, lean muscle-meat, or excess amounts of other raw foods on the Primal Diet, such as raw honey. I was no exception, I found that constant digestion diverted resources from the rest of my body, thus lowering concentration, increasing fatigue etc. Another thing noticed by many RPDers is that fasting intensifies the healing process.
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he came into the forum with a chip on his shoulder about fasting, fair enough so what! I don't care really! but I like the friendly laid back vibe of this forum, and would like to se it continue or else I would leave.
This is the best forum on the web it's kind of and escape form the ohter knobs on the net.
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Obesity is not caused by overeating, it seems. It is mostly caused by insulin. And insulin is stimulated by carbohydrates. The reason why people are fat is because they are eating carbohydrates and the reason they are frequently hungry is because carbs increase insulin secretion which keeps fat stored for longer periods of time. Unable to access fat for fuel, people get hungry, eat more carbs and the vicious cycle continues.
Read Gary Taubes' book "Good Calories, Bad Calories".