Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: TheWayCreatesTheWarrior on May 29, 2008, 11:08:11 pm
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does anyone eat meat that hasnt been frozen?
i get most of my meat from Whole Foods and im not sure if its frozen before they put it out, i assume it is seeing its from New Zealand. Aajonus wrote that freezing meat is inferior to fresh, and sites animal studies where animals fed frozen meat had deleterious effects vs animals fed fresh meat. but i find it hard to get it fresh.
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Most of what I eat is grass-fed and has been frozen. I haven't experienced any deleterious effects. It's probably not as good as fresh grass-fed but I do believe it's still much better than fresh grain-fed meat.
Eating frozen meat isn't really that unnatural considering that once an animal was killed in cold climates by our ancestors, the meat would freeze. Inuits also were known to eat frozen fish while still frozen!
Craig
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I started getting all fresh meat recently because the farmers I buy from started selling it. Obviously fresh is better, but frozen meat is better than no meat at all.
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From what I've heard, enzymes gradually get destroyed by freezing, over weeks.
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if your eating your meat raw, Fresh would definitely be better?
but if your cooking your meat, it probably doesn't matter if its fresh or frozen, would this be correct?
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if your eating your meat raw, Fresh would definitely be better?
but if your cooking your meat, it probably doesn't matter if its fresh or frozen, would this be correct?
i do eat it raw, i assume that freezing kills off most of the bacteria and therefore would not be as good as fresh, that my main thinking behind it.
so with cooking i assume if it was frozen wouldnt matter seeing all bacteria, as far as im aware, are killed by cooking.
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Metallica,
I would assume so since anything lost during freezing would certainly be lost by cooking anyway.
TheWayCreatesTheWarrior,
Is there anything shorter I can call you? TWCTW, maybe? ;D
If you're worried about the loss of bacteria, you could set some aside to get a little high.
Here are Tyler's instructions for making high-meat:
High-Meat Preparation Notes:-
First get hold of a properly sealable container(eg:- vacuum-jar/sealable plastic box/Bell Jar etc.). Fill half of the box with the raw meats you want to age - make sure to leave 50% of the box unfilled, so as to ensure that there is enough air/oxygen for the bacteria - it's a very bad idea not to leave enough (fresh)air for the bacteria to work on. Then place the high-meat container in the fridge. Make sure to take the container out and air the box unopened outside , at least once every 1 to 3 days for a few minutes, depending on your whim - properly airing the meats outside helps to refresh the air within the box, allowing the bacteria to continue their work - don't air it inside the house as that will stink out the place. Oh, and don't forget to cut up the fresh, raw meats into mouthful-sized pieces before you start using it for "high-meat" - otherwise, it's a rather messy business to cut it all up once it's reached the "high-meat" stage - though, I suppose, one can wait, instead, until it eventually becomes liquid, where one just needs a spoon.
Generally speaking, if the fridge is not at too cold a setting, and if the high-meat container is aired frequently, then it's usually recommended to wait c.1 month before trying it. I find that I get the beneficial effects from the high-meat within c.2-3 weeks after storing it, usually once the outer surface of the aged ,raw meats has become slimy enough, but with the rest of the meat still being quite solid enough to be picked up by a fork - I generally don't like the texture of "high-meat" once it becomes too liquidy. Though, there are some who prefer aging the "high-meat" for several months.
A few people wish to speed up the process by storing the "high-meat" container outside the fridge in the open air, but this is fraught with difficulty as flies are fiendishly clever at laying their almost unnoticeable eggs around the lid, and these can then so easily drop in. It's been suggested by one member of the group that the container in question should be sealed within black bin-bags so as to deter the flies.
(I should also mention that I personally only got the fullest benefit from "high-meat" once I started eating c. two (cubic-inch-sized?)chunks of "high-meat" each day, and that the effects, oddly, seemed to only start being noticed after c.12-24 hours. Obviously, though, everyone is different, in this regard).
"High-meat" can be made from pretty much any raw-animal-food-source. The Eskimoes used to age raw fish in this way, the Chinese would age their raw eggs for decades, the French often age their raw cheeses until they become very stinky etc.. I personally found most "high-meats" versions to be a problem for me(especially any "high-meat"-muscle-meats), with the exception of aged kidney, aged tongue, and especially aged ox/beef heart - I use the latter most of the time, for reasons of taste and convenience. I would strongly recommend that people experiment with a wide variety of "high-meats" before they find the one that is least appalling re taste.
Virtually everyone finds "high-meat" a problem at first, re taste, due to past conditioning. My own solution, at the start, was to cut the meats up into very tiny slivers so that I could just swallow them very quickly without having to endure the taste for long. I'd then follow up each mouthful with a big gulp of alkaline (spring) mineral-water in order to blot out the after-taste. Naturally, over a certain length of time, I got used to the taste and no longer need to cut up the meat into such tiny slices or chase each piece with water, and, nowadays, I even relish the rather acidic taste of some kinds of "high-meat", viewing it as a useful alternative to smelly raw cheeses(I happen to be allergic to raw dairy).
Naturally, there are always going to be some who feel they won't ever be able to get used to such fare, so I would strongly recommend that such people buy "EM" products, instead, or, (powerful) probiotic supplements, instead. "EM" stands for effective microorganisms. However, I'm sceptical re the efficacy of the latter two, by comparison to "high-meat", and view them as substitutes only - besides, "EM" products are rather expensive and difficult to prepare, whereas "high-meat" is relatively easy to make.
The benefits of the extra bacteria from "high-meat" include better digestion, and increased concentration, energy-levels and improvement in mood. Here's a standard news-report re a study describing how bacteria help improve one's mood:-
http://tinyurl.com/23xjut
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Metallica,
I would assume so since anything lost during freezing would certainly be lost by cooking anyway.
TheWayCreatesTheWarrior,
Is there anything shorter I can call you? TWCTW, maybe? ;D
If you're worried about the loss of bacteria, you could set some aside to get a little high.
Here are Tyler's instructions for making high-meat:
High-Meat Preparation Notes:-
First get hold of a properly sealable container(eg:- vacuum-jar/sealable plastic box/Bell Jar etc.). Fill half of the box with the raw meats you want to age - make sure to leave 50% of the box unfilled, so as to ensure that there is enough air/oxygen for the bacteria - it's a very bad idea not to leave enough (fresh)air for the bacteria to work on. Then place the high-meat container in the fridge. Make sure to take the container out and air the box unopened outside , at least once every 1 to 3 days for a few minutes, depending on your whim - properly airing the meats outside helps to refresh the air within the box, allowing the bacteria to continue their work - don't air it inside the house as that will stink out the place. Oh, and don't forget to cut up the fresh, raw meats into mouthful-sized pieces before you start using it for "high-meat" - otherwise, it's a rather messy business to cut it all up once it's reached the "high-meat" stage - though, I suppose, one can wait, instead, until it eventually becomes liquid, where one just needs a spoon.
Generally speaking, if the fridge is not at too cold a setting, and if the high-meat container is aired frequently, then it's usually recommended to wait c.1 month before trying it. I find that I get the beneficial effects from the high-meat within c.2-3 weeks after storing it, usually once the outer surface of the aged ,raw meats has become slimy enough, but with the rest of the meat still being quite solid enough to be picked up by a fork - I generally don't like the texture of "high-meat" once it becomes too liquidy. Though, there are some who prefer aging the "high-meat" for several months.
A few people wish to speed up the process by storing the "high-meat" container outside the fridge in the open air, but this is fraught with difficulty as flies are fiendishly clever at laying their almost unnoticeable eggs around the lid, and these can then so easily drop in. It's been suggested by one member of the group that the container in question should be sealed within black bin-bags so as to deter the flies.
(I should also mention that I personally only got the fullest benefit from "high-meat" once I started eating c. two (cubic-inch-sized?)chunks of "high-meat" each day, and that the effects, oddly, seemed to only start being noticed after c.12-24 hours. Obviously, though, everyone is different, in this regard).
"High-meat" can be made from pretty much any raw-animal-food-source. The Eskimoes used to age raw fish in this way, the Chinese would age their raw eggs for decades, the French often age their raw cheeses until they become very stinky etc.. I personally found most "high-meats" versions to be a problem for me(especially any "high-meat"-muscle-meats), with the exception of aged kidney, aged tongue, and especially aged ox/beef heart - I use the latter most of the time, for reasons of taste and convenience. I would strongly recommend that people experiment with a wide variety of "high-meats" before they find the one that is least appalling re taste.
Virtually everyone finds "high-meat" a problem at first, re taste, due to past conditioning. My own solution, at the start, was to cut the meats up into very tiny slivers so that I could just swallow them very quickly without having to endure the taste for long. I'd then follow up each mouthful with a big gulp of alkaline (spring) mineral-water in order to blot out the after-taste. Naturally, over a certain length of time, I got used to the taste and no longer need to cut up the meat into such tiny slices or chase each piece with water, and, nowadays, I even relish the rather acidic taste of some kinds of "high-meat", viewing it as a useful alternative to smelly raw cheeses(I happen to be allergic to raw dairy).
Naturally, there are always going to be some who feel they won't ever be able to get used to such fare, so I would strongly recommend that such people buy "EM" products, instead, or, (powerful) probiotic supplements, instead. "EM" stands for effective microorganisms. However, I'm sceptical re the efficacy of the latter two, by comparison to "high-meat", and view them as substitutes only - besides, "EM" products are rather expensive and difficult to prepare, whereas "high-meat" is relatively easy to make.
The benefits of the extra bacteria from "high-meat" include better digestion, and increased concentration, energy-levels and improvement in mood. Here's a standard news-report re a study describing how bacteria help improve one's mood:-
http://tinyurl.com/23xjut
you can use that acronym if youd like, or just Warrior, or TheWayCreates, or my real name, Bronson. whatevers easier :).
i just started some high-meat yesterday, im siked to try it when its "done", and feel any effects. ive never tried it.
Raw Kyle, what state do you live in?
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New Jersey near Philadelphia.
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i live near Philly too
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i asked the butcher at Whole Foods today if any of the grass-fed beef was pre-frozen. he said no, and that if something is pre-frozen that it has to state it on the label.
Aajonus mentions that one of the reasons why freezing meat is bad, is because it allows the E.Coli bacteria to overproduce. i assume that means that E.coli is more resilient to the cold than other bacteria, and multiplies while other bacteria dies or lay dormant in the freezer. this is probably why meat taken out of the freezer tend to get brown and smell quick.
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i have heard that freezing for 2 weeks will eliminate all parasites
this is a statement from the fda and lord knows i am not saying the government is the most reputable source of information but as a girl with parasites already......i freeze
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i have heard that freezing for 2 weeks will eliminate all parasites
this is a statement from the fda and lord knows i am not saying the government is the most reputable source of information but as a girl with parasites already......i freeze
Yes, freezing at 0 degrees F for 7 days will kill parasites. But it will not kill bacteria. I freeze mainly because I buy in bulk once a month from a farm that is a good 100 miles from me. They deliver at a certain place, so that is most convenient.
I would suggest that everyone try to search out local, small-scale farms where bacteria will not be breeding as they are in the large-scale industrial farms that Whole Foods supports. Whole Foods has gotten some bad press lately, btw, for some shady practices. And usually, you can get a better deal buying direct from the farm, especially with fuel costs rising. Just because something may say "organic" or "grassfed" does not mean it is the best you can buy. Many organics come from China and Chile. What does that mean exactly?
http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/ - an older article, I remember reading more recent stuff, but can't find it
That's why local is best. You can visit the farms and see how they do things. The local WAPF chapters can help you find well-raised, pastured animal products.
http://www.westonaprice.org/localchapters/index.html#locallist
And here's our rawpaleo.com links for both US and UK suppliers.
http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/links/ - the top 4 listings
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does freezing have any effect on enzymes?
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does freezing have any effect on enzymes?
Without a doubt.
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Without a doubt.
so what would be the best enzyme supplement to take along with pre-frozen meat?
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so what would be the best enzyme supplement to take along with pre-frozen meat?
I don't take enzymes with food, I only take a systemic enzyme called Neprinol. I started with Vitalzym but found out Neprinol is similar, perhaps even a little better, as well as not containing the excipients in Vitalzym. The cd that came with Vitalzym had a lecture that taught me a lot about systemic enzymes, maybe I could upload it somehow. One of the things I learned was that systemic enzymes are sometimes the same as digestive ones, your bodies enzymes can perform multiple functions. For example protein digesting enzymes break down fibrin in the body (which is the most important function of enzyme supplementation imo) aka scar tissue, and then slowly move to your digestive system and out your bowels, where they digest your dietary protein "on the way out."
So when you take a "digestive enzyme supplement" you are taking the same enzymes that are in a "systemic enzyme supplement," but the difference is that the pill is made in a way to deliver the enzymes into the body rather than leaving them in the digestive system.
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A few people wish to speed up the process by storing the "high-meat" container outside the fridge in the open air, but this is fraught with difficulty as flies are fiendishly clever at laying their almost unnoticeable eggs around the lid, and these can then so easily drop in. It's been suggested by one member of the group that the container in question should be sealed within black bin-bags so as to deter the flies.
Is there anything wrong with leaving a sealed container outside of the fridge? I put some heart in a sealed jar to make high yesterday, but left it outside of the fridge.
And does anyone how approx. how long it will take unrefrigerated meats to become high, as opposed to refrigerated?
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Is there anything wrong with leaving a sealed container outside of the fridge? I put some heart in a sealed jar to make high yesterday, but left it outside of the fridge.
And does anyone how approx. how long it will take unrefrigerated meats to become high, as opposed to refrigerated?
The problem is that you have to air the sealed container regularly(I find once a day airing to speed up the process). By airing, you dislodge some of the tiny eggs laid by flies around the lid, which then fall into the high-meat mess below, and you then get maggots crawling all over sooner or later. I've managed, by being ultra-careful, to avoid such a thing happening, over a 3-week period, but one always forgets sooner or later.
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does freezing have any effect on enzymes?
Technically speaking, freezing doesn't kill of bacteria, it just inactivates them. Freezing does damage the structure of enzymes - I think some RPDers have stated that enzymes get completely destroyed if the food is left for as much as 10 weeks in a frozen state - no idea how to corroborate that. The main problem with freezing is that cell-walls get broken by the ice-particles so that nutrients leak out etc.
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The problem is that you have to air the sealed container regularly(I find once a day airing to speed up the process). By airing, you dislodge some of the tiny eggs laid by flies around the lid, which then fall into the high-meat mess below, and you then get maggots crawling all over sooner or later. I've managed, by being ultra-careful, to avoid such a thing happening, over a 3-week period, but one always forgets sooner or later.
Ah, well I have it sitting in a closed drawer in my room (as good as a refrigerator, just without the cold, right?)
So flies probably aren't a problem. If I observe maggots, I guess I will have learned a lesson and put future jars in the fridge.
That being said, do you have any idea about time difference between cooled and uncooled?
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No idea - if I leave it outside the fridge and it works, then it takes 10 days to 2 weeks or so, for me to get the main benefit re energy/concentration, instead of 3 weeks for fridge high-meat. For some reason, half of my experiments with high-meat left outside fail completely(they just dry up instead of blossoming into a fungoid, putrid mass), and onl c.10% of the high-meat I leave in the fridge fails. I think this has something to do with lack of humidity? No idea, really.
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So should there be visible mold-like stuff on there?
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I made some high meat a few weeks ago outside the fridge (i was in a hurry)
I used heart and it turned green! it was the most disgusting high meat I've had. It was seriously rank! even thinking about it makes me feel ill. I ate about 100 grams and that took a lot of effort. It made me feel a little off but nothing bad.
I won't do it again for a while. I think 2 to 3 weeks in the fridge is the best of both worlds.
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So should there be visible mold-like stuff on there?
Well, usually, there is. I take it as a hopeful sign that the process is working.
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Okay, so it's only been a few days now and It already stinks to high heaven (I can smell it without opening the jar)
and there's this tan foam that's appeared all over the place.
Has your high-meat ever foamed? What is this?
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with its high yeast content, high meat is the carnivore counterpart of wine (or bread or cheese)
methinks
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with its high yeast content, high meat is the carnivore counterpart of wine (or bread or cheese)
methinks
"High-Meat" doesn't have the same kind of effects as alcohol, though. While alcohol dulls the senses, "high-meat" actually heightens the senses and increases concentration etc, without the toxic effect that alcohol has. And the effect of "high-meat" is really to do with the bacteria in the high-meat, which stimulate the body into increasing the serotonin levels in the brain:-
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/66840.php
Granted, in small amounts alcohol also stimulates serotonin production, but, unlike "high-meat", in excess, alcohol actually reduces serotonin levels, thus increasing depression/lowering mood.
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yes
by ingesting a lot of any kind of carb, fluid or solid, the body becomes serotonin resistant... & depression ensues
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Low%20fat%20moods (http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Low%20fat%20moods)
now, here's my own theory:
the overgrowth of yeast, mold, or other fungi in high meat results in some sort of gluconeogenesis, whereby high meat ends up being high in carbs
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now, here's my own theory:
the overgrowth of yeast, mold, or other fungi in high meat results in some sort of gluconeogenesis, whereby high meat ends up being high in carbs
by ingesting a lot of any kind of carb, fluid or solid, the body becomes serotonin resistant... & depression ensues
You are suggesting that the body will become high-meat resistant then? Has anybody who eats high meat on a regular basis noticed a building resistance and/or depression?
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now, here's my own theory:
the overgrowth of yeast, mold, or other fungi in high meat results in some sort of gluconeogenesis, whereby high meat ends up being high in carbs[/color]
Couldn't you just test the high meat for carb content?
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I thought yeasts consumed carbs. That's why red wine is not sweet, but grape juice is. Same with cheese. Meat doesn't have carbs to begin with, or not many. But then, meat can and does get moldy. I dunno.
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Well, I think my "heart in a jar" is finally ready for eating.
Last time I saw it was yesterday morning when I took it to air it out, and it was absolutely disgusting. The smell when you first open the jar is overpowering. It looks like Satan's vomit.
I'm excited. ;D
I just hope that it will indeed bring benefits and I won't be eating that putrid mess for nothing. That is if I'm even able to get it down. You best believe I will be sporting the mineral water when I eat it tomorrow morning. There's no way I could eat it in my apartment without seriously disturbing my roommates, so I'll have to bring it with me up on top of a nearby parking garage and eat it there. That's where I've been bringing it to air out, as I watch the sunrise.
PS. I just noticed I said "Satan's vomit", not even thinking about how the majority of our new icons deal with just those two things! >D -d -v
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Nice good luck.
Satya I think yeast/mold/fungus can digest all 3 macro-nutrients but tend to be found mostly on carbs like bread. I think this may be because they do very well (better than bacteria) with lower water content foods, and these tend to be modern carbs (all of the grain derivatives).
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"High-Meat" doesn't have the same kind of effects as alcohol, though. While alcohol dulls the senses, "high-meat" actually heightens the senses and increases concentration etc, without the toxic effect that alcohol has. And the effect of "high-meat" is really to do with the bacteria in the high-meat, which stimulate the body into increasing the serotonin levels in the brain:-
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/66840.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/66840.php)
Granted, in small amounts alcohol also stimulates serotonin production, but, unlike "high-meat", in excess, alcohol actually reduces serotonin levels, thus increasing depression/lowering mood.
http://70.32.73.82/blog/5774/alcohol-and-the-brain/ (http://70.32.73.82/blog/5774/alcohol-and-the-brain/)
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Re this freezer topic - the farmer I visited lately told me that they are not permitted by law in Texas to slaughter their own animals and sell me meat which means they lose half of the animal because the processor will not return to them the organs and all the other parts. There are only a few organs that the farmer can have back and the cuts of muscle meat. Other farmers have informed me that the processing plants automatically freeze the meat. It is impossible for the farmers to get unfrozen meat or all the other parts of the animal back.
I have yet to taste unfrozen meat as it is unavailable to me.