Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: dariorpl on March 31, 2015, 01:13:56 am
-
So I came upon a source of organic grass fed raw milk, or at least the seller claims it is. I hope it is and will try it. But I wanted to know if I could get some pointers on how to produce raw cheeses of various kinds from it. The less ingredients I have to use, the better. I've seen some recipes that call for heating, using chemicals and stuff. I don't want any of that. Does cheese always need rennet, and do you use fresh rennet or always the dried and extracted version?
-
Put it in the dark at room temp with the lid loosely on. You'll get your cheese in 3-6 days, roughly.
If you want a specific type of cheese, you're going to have to replicate the cheese-making method that produces that cheese type.
-
Put it in the dark at room temp with the lid loosely on. You'll get your cheese in 3-6 days, roughly.
If you want a specific type of cheese, you're going to have to replicate the cheese-making method that produces that cheese type.
Are you serious? Thats great if it is that simple. Does it need to be extra creamy milk?
-
Are you serious? Thats great if it is that simple. Does it need to be extra creamy milk?
Not really. The fat generally rises to the top before fermentation takes place. You end up with a very fatty fermented layer and a low-fat fermented layer below that.
-
I made a simple raw unsalted rennet cheese. I was expecting it to be salty, but I guess it needs salt for that. It was very sweet. I'm pressing it now, not sure how long I'll age it. Do you know if it gets more salty with aging and molding?
Next time I will try using some lemon juice before the rennet. And/or some leftover raw whey.
-
I made a simple raw unsalted rennet cheese. I was expecting it to be salty, but I guess it needs salt for that. It was very sweet. I'm pressing it now, not sure how long I'll age it. Do you know if it gets more salty with aging and molding?
Next time I will try using some lemon juice before the rennet. And/or some leftover raw whey.
To get a salty flavor, you're going to have to add salt.
-
After pressing for 32hs, it tastes a lot better. It's a lot more cheesy and it does taste kind of salty, and definitely not as sweet. I think it's the whey that gives it the sweet flavor. Or maybe the fermentation process consumes the lactose. Or both.
-
Probably both, plus the fact that you are concentrating the flavor by removing the water.
-
So I tried another batch. I added about 3/4ths of a cup of lemon juice to 3.5 liters (quarts) of warm raw milk (35C, 95F) and stirred, then let it sit for about 30 minutes and added the rennet. When stirring the rennet it seemed like it was already curdling. I waited for another half hour keeping the temperature steady. When I checked it, it was totally different from the last time, there were no curds on the top or around the borders, just loose clumps in the middle. I may have stirred the curds when I added the rennet, I don't know. It seemed to me like I wasn't getting much out of it, so I added another equal amount of rennet and stirred again. I waited for over an hour. It seemed about the same as before, so I just strained it and let it hang in the cloth for over an hour. What I got smelled and tasted a lot more like the pressed cheese, but with a consistency more like cottage cheese. It also oozed tremendous amounts of fats, which the first one did not. I don't know if that means that this curdled more of the fats, or if it's the opposite and more of the fats are coming out with the whey. This tastes good as is and I'm not gonna press it, just put it in a jar in the fridge. It seems like I got more cheese out of the first batch than this one, but I'm not sure.
-
When stirring the rennet it seemed like it was already curdling.
Lemon juice always curdles milk.
Write down the things you do with each cheesemaking batch. That way, you can duplicate the ones you like. Your cheesemaking journal can include all the data that may interest you, such as how much curds and whey were produced, for later analysis. Or not, if you aren't that into analyzing cheese.
-
Yeah that is a good idea. After letting it sit in the fridge for 10hs, it's a lot harder than it was before. It's almost as hard as the pressed cheese. And very yellow, before it looked more white if I remember correctly. Though the fat oozing out was yellow.
I've seen that you can order all sorts of starter cultures for cheese online. Do you know how these are made? I don't want to be adding any more toxicity than I have to, and I already have doubts about the rennet.
-
Yeah that is a good idea. After letting it sit in the fridge for 10hs, it's a lot harder than it was before. It's almost as hard as the pressed cheese. And very yellow, before it looked more white if I remember correctly. Though the fat oozing out was yellow.
I've seen that you can order all sorts of starter cultures for cheese online. Do you know how these are made? I don't want to be adding any more toxicity than I have to, and I already have doubts about the rennet.
I've never used rennet. A cheesemaking forum might be a place to ask.
-
Yeah, they will know about making cheese, although I'm more interested in the nutritional and healthful aspects of it than getting the best possible flavor and texture. But I will do that as well. Thanks.
I just thought that since raw cheese is such a big part of the primal diet, that others here might know about how it should be made for optimal nutrition and health promoting properties. I will try your simple method soon, too. I need to get more spare glass jars.
-
My son makes cheese. He has mentioned cheesemaking.com as a source of cultures.
Naturally-cultured cheese takes its bacteria and yeasts from the "cave" in which it is aged. The chemical changes during the aging period are very interesting - science-y stuff happens all during the aging period.
Commercial cheese cultures are the same as commercial bread yeasts - grown from a source culture in an appropriate medium. The commercial variety would not be as local and varied as a wild culture. Ask your supplier for more specific information.
-
Thanks eve. Does your son do a raw diet too?
I checked that site, and all the rennet forms are full of chemicals. Except the organic one, which has a lot of salt for some reason. I can't imagine why, since I doubt salt helps milk curdle (or does it?)
-
Salt in cheesemaking, and in fermentation in general, narrows the range of bacteria that will grown in the milk, thus discouraging untasty flavors. (Temperature is the other main control.) I've found that "slimy" fermentation comes from not having enough salt for the ambient heat during fermentation.
What cheese forms if you just let your milk clabber (curdle naturally)?
Have you tried using kefir grains? They work in unheated milk, whereas most other commercial cultures want you to kill off the natural bacteria and enzymes in milk by heating it (for consistent results). Kefir can be strained to make a cheese which can be eating immediately or aged.
-
Oh, that's interesting about the salt. I always saw people add salt after curdling, but I guess some rennets come with salt also.
What cheese forms if you just let your milk clabber (curdle naturally)?
I don't know, I will try that next. Do you know if it's better to start with milk that has been shaken up, or if it's better to start with milk that has been allowed to have the cream rise to the top while sitting in the fridge? I ask because the glass bottles in which I get it have to be shaken up to be able to pour. So I moved about 1 liter (quart) to a jar and I don't know if I should start it now or let it it sit in the fridge for a day first.
Have you tried using kefir grains? They work in unheated milk, whereas most other commercial cultures want you to kill off the natural bacteria and enzymes in milk by heating it (for consistent results). Kefir can be strained to make a cheese which can be eating immediately or aged.)
Oh that's wonderful. I didn't know you could strain kefir. I thought you just drank it as a yoghurt. I will see if I can get kefir grains.
-
I've been looking for kefir grains but haven't found any that I can get from a local source that's grown on raw grassfed milk. Do you know if using dry kefir makes it lose nutritional value?
I found a few live kefir grain sources here, but they're grown on pasteurized milk. And getting kefir from another country could take months with the crazy bans to international trade here, and I don't think fresh live kefir grains can survive that long in shipping.
-
Kefir grains are perhaps more complex that kefir powder, meaning that they may have more bacteria strains than a manufacturered culture.
I'd go ahead and get the grains that were in grain-fed milk - in a few days I don't think there would be any difference. I don't culture kefir now, but I have in the past. Kefir grains are fun because they multiply right before your eyes. My US source was http://www.kefirlady.com/ (http://www.kefirlady.com/), mentioned here because her instructions are good.
-
Kefir grains are perhaps more complex that kefir powder, meaning that they may have more bacteria strains than a manufacturered culture.
I'd go ahead and get the grains that were in grain-fed milk - in a few days I don't think there would be any difference. I don't culture kefir now, but I have in the past. Kefir grains are fun because they multiply right before your eyes. My US source was http://www.kefirlady.com/ (http://www.kefirlady.com/), mentioned here because her instructions are good.
I agree. A few generations of being in raw grassfed milk should make kefir grains of pretty acceptable quality. Anyway, the milk is grassfed and raw, so it's not as if the grains are going to damage it, nutrition-wise.
-
Well the kefir grains' genetics will be all distorted and mutated for the worse, plus they will have plenty of toxins to eliminate into the milk, for how many generations, I don't know, but some of the damage may be permanent.
-
Well the kefir grains' genetics will be all distorted and mutated for the worse, plus they will have plenty of toxins to eliminate into the milk, for how many generations, I don't know, but some of the damage may be permanent.
Bacteria distort and mutate in a matter of minutes and hours, which is why they are useful co-digesters in the human gut microbiome. Making kefir with grains, you would start with such a small quantity, but in one single overnight batch, you would have many generations. I'm not trying to convince you for or against anything, but I think this would be the least of your worries. I prefer to dismiss worries of this small size.
-
I would do it if there was no other way, but I believe once DNA has been damaged and mutated irreparably by many generations on pasteurized, homogenized grain fed milk, then it could be the case that you would never be able to repair that no matter how many generations you did it for. Or it could take more than a lifetime to repair it. I will research more about this and see what I'd rather do. I might start with the bad kefir and go from there. As AV highly recommended kefir, and it would be a good way to ferment milk without the addition of toxic rennet.
-
It took about 7 generations for Dr. Pottenger's cats to return to normal after a disturbed diet. If anything, bacteria would be faster, I would guess.
-
But the cats weren't on the cooked diet for thousands upon thousands of generations like the bacteria and yeast in kefir would be...
-
But the cats weren't on the cooked diet for thousands upon thousands of generations like the bacteria and yeast in kefir would be...
Well, if you're really curious, get some raw lineage grains and some cooked lineage grains, raise them on the same milk, and compare the difference. I doubt there's much of a difference, but you can try it if you're curious.
-
Good idea. Although I don't know if I'll be able to tell by taste which is better, but I'll try.
-
Well I tried to make another simple rennet cheese. This time a lot of fat was oozing out of the curds, like with the lemon juice+rennet experiment (it's the same batch of milk, maybe it was more fatty than the first time I tried, I don't know). I kept the temperature more stable and made sure it didn't go past 35.5C (96 F). I may have used a little less rennet than the first time. In any case, after pressing for 30hs, what came out was the best of the three. It has a cheesy taste but unlike the other two, it's much less sour. The other two weren't very sour, just a bit, and this is less so. Also, the consistency is very spongy, just like a thick omelette which needless to say, is amazing. I used a lot of layers of cloth this time for pressing, which I didn't do the first time. I did it to absorb all the ridiculous amount of fat that was oozing out. I could have eaten it like that to avoid losing all that awesome fat, but it was too wet and probably sweet still (I think I forgot to taste it before pressing and just assumed it'd be sweet, I'm not sure).
I'm gonna try kefir next, with the damaged DNA grains. And I will also try allowing milk to separate and curdle on it's own without any additives, the way CK and eve said.
-
I know what I'll do, instead of throwing away my skimmed milk, I'll try doing kefir with that, to advance the bacteria and yeast generations on raw milk, and then I'll just keep harvesting the grains and throwing away the kefired skim milk.
EDIT: It seems that using skim milk actually increases kefir grain production a little.
-
Put it in the dark at room temp with the lid loosely on. You'll get your cheese in 3-6 days, roughly.
If you want a specific type of cheese, you're going to have to replicate the cheese-making method that produces that cheese type.
Ive done this, and now what i assume is curds at the top, is solidifying with what i assume is liquid whey at the bottom. Now what do i do? Do i separate them and put the curds in the fridge to sit?
-
You need a cheese cloth or any kind of cotton cloth to strain the curds (solids). That's cheese. Some people use metal strainers. It'd work but you'll probably lose some of your solids. I also hear metal will disturb or kill the bacteria in the whey (liquids).
-
You need a cheese cloth or any kind of cotton cloth to strain the curds (solids). That's cheese. Some people use metal strainers. It'd work but you'll probably lose some of your solids. I also hear metal will disturb or kill the bacteria in the whey (liquids).
Thanks!
And then what? I leave it for a few weeks to make it harder? I put it in the fridge?
-
It depends on what kind of cheese you wanna make and how it came out. Usually you want to hang it for an hour or two in the cheese/cotton cloth, allowing more of the whey to drain out. Putting it in a glass jar in the fridge with some air space will harden it somewhat. You could also press it. And you could age it after pressing. There's a lot of things you can do.
I haven't done it this way yet, but I'll be trying in the next few days probably.
-
It depends on what kind of cheese you wanna make and how it came out. Usually you want to hang it for an hour or two in the cheese/cotton cloth, allowing more of the whey to drain out. Putting it in a glass jar in the fridge with some air space will harden it somewhat. You could also press it. And you could age it after pressing. There's a lot of things you can do.
I haven't done it this way yet, but I'll be trying in the next few days probably.
What do you mean age it? Just leave it? In the fridge?
-
Yeah, there are many ways to age it. Some age it in the fridge, some at room temperature. I haven't aged mine so far. If you're gonna age them, they need to be pressed first. You can make an improvised press with items you'll have in your home, but if you get serious about it then you're probably gonna want to either buy one already made, or manufacture a proper press if you're skillful like that.
Many people who age their cheese add wax at a certain point to air-seal the cheese and prevent it from losing moisture and from getting mold on the outside. But in most cases this mold would be good for your cheese and for your health, and the wax wouldn't be. But it's up to you what you want to do.
-
Have you tried using kefir grains? They work in unheated milk, whereas most other commercial cultures want you to kill off the natural bacteria and enzymes in milk by heating it (for consistent results). Kefir can be strained to make a cheese which can be eating immediately or aged.
I've been using my leftover skim milk from making cream, to grow my kefir grains on raw (to advance the bacterial and mold/yeast generations on raw, since the person I got the grains from was growing them on pasteurized milk). I was throwing away the skim kefir, but the last time I made it into a soft cream-like low-fat cheese and tried it. It was good, a little strong, but that may be because I allowed it to ferment for quite a while before straining. Although I was already expecting a stronger taste from the molds/yeast that are a part of kefir. I'm not a fan of strong cheese like blue cheese (though I've never had the raw types), but this was good. I had it with chopped garlic and parsley. I still like regular cheese better, but that might just be because I'm making it with full fat milk.
-
People use a long fermentation time (more than just overnight or 24 hours) when they like a sour dairy taste or when they want to get rid of all the milk sugars (lactose). Sour dairy is an ethnic food for me: even though I do not tolerate dairy well, the odor and taste say, "Comfort Food!!!' to me.
-
i have tried the next:
making cheese with natural bacteria of milk.
then straining and pressing that cheese.
then eat a piece of that cheese, and chew and ensalivate it totally, until is totally disolved.
then spit that mix of saliva and cheese on another batch of milk.
repeat with 2 or 3 pieces of cheese.
make cheese again with new batch of milk+cheese+saliva
and the result is magnific, i'm getting a really soft and creamy cheese, like "queso cremoso" in argentina.
i recomend you to try it!
-
Interesting.