Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Instincto / Anopsology => Topic started by: CarnivorousApe on April 23, 2012, 12:41:00 pm
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Hi guys,
As far as I understood instincto diet advices you to eat as much as you want as long as you listen to your instincts well and eat only raw food. It presumes, that instincts will tell you what to eat and they will stop you before you overeat.
Now, I have doubts about two points:
1. Instincts are going to tell you want is best for you at the moment
2. Instincts will stop you before you overeat
Let me explain. No one knows for sure what prehistoric life was, we presume that people used to eat raw food, including animals. This might seem dubious to some people, but I agree with that. What is beyond doubt to me is that there were longer periods of food scarcity with relatively short periods of food abundance.
As a result, instincts would provide survival benefit if they ordered prehistoric man to _overeat_ when there is food abundance (especially such a precious commodity as meat), so that body accumulated reserves for longer periods of famine.
I have read free instincto book, plus GCB replies here, a lot of it makes sense to me but I couldn't find the answer to the points above.
What do you think?
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I have seen a lot of talk in instincto forums as I've done various web surfing saying that fruit is easy to overeat even with that approach, particularly very ripe or very flavorful fruit. It makes sense to me that sugars could override the stop because we're hard wired to crave them. They're a quick, cheap source of instant energy. Not a bad thing when you have a very active lifestyle and are constantly on the move. Not a great thing when you're more sedentary like most people tend to be these days.
I know that I personally could gorge myself on ripe persimmons until I literally popped if I let myself. I have never, EVER experienced a stop for native persimmons. Nor for muscadines and scuppernongs. What stops me from eating ridiculous amounts of any of the above is the knowledge that they're all very high in sugar and that I won't be doing myself any favors if I eat as many of them as I feel like I could.
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I have never, EVER experienced a stop for native persimmons. Nor for muscadines and scuppernongs.
Same for me with sweet cherry, grapes, watermelons and melons. I can't eat too much apple though. Such a tendency to overeat could probably be explained that period when fruits are ripe very short in the wilderness (a week or two), so whenever such a source was found, it made sense to overeat, as the next chance could happen only next year.
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Same for me with sweet cherry, grapes, watermelons and melons. I can't eat too much apple though. Such a tendency to overeat could probably be explained that period when fruits are ripe very short in the wilderness (a week or two), so whenever such a source was found, it made sense to overeat, as the next chance could happen only next year.
It could be. Obesity is a relatively modern condition. The ready availability of fruit on demand and out of season is a VERY modern development. I'd like to think that anyone taking an instincto approach to eating wouldn't allow blind appetite to override common sense. But then I read accounts of people eating something like seven watermelons in one sitting and I have to wonder.
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It could be. Obesity is a relatively modern condition. The ready availability of fruit on demand and out of season is a VERY modern development.
That's exactly what I am talking about. I would also add that meat availability was probably also seasonal or at least very rare. So given a chance people would overeat raw meat, maybe even more than fruits.
I'd like to think that anyone taking an instincto approach to eating wouldn't allow blind appetite to override common sense. But then I read accounts of people eating something like seven watermelons in one sitting and I have to wonder.
Well, maybe overeating particular food for short period of time is ok, as long as it is seasonal, but continuous overeating can be dangerous.
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I get a stop with every single fruit ever. Of course, I'm defining stop probably more like GCB or Iguana do...for instance, if I'm eating pineapple, I stop before it makes my tongue bleed. :) It still TASTES good, but...that bromelain enzyme in it dissolves my tongue after a while. ROFL
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I get a stop with every single fruit ever. Of course, I'm defining stop probably more like GCB or Iguana do...for instance, if I'm eating pineapple, I stop before it makes my tongue bleed. :) It still TASTES good, but...that bromelain enzyme in it dissolves my tongue after a while. ROFL
Yeah, pineapple is evil, I get a stop with it pretty soon also :) This happens with many sour fruits. Can't eat a lot of oranges or apples. But there is no limit with sweet fruits..
cherimoya_kid, how about meat, especially fatty varieties?
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Yeah, pineapple is evil, I get a stop with it pretty soon also :) This happens with many sour fruits. Can't eat a lot of oranges or apples. But there is no limit with sweet fruits..
cherimoya_kid, how about meat, especially fatty varieties?
Pineapple is a sweet fruit. If you're eating sour ones, then you're getting low-quality, low-Brix ones. I don't the sour/low-Brix ones.
Any fatty food gives me a very sudden change, including fatty meats.
As far as other sweet fruits go, I generally do get a stop with them. Maybe I'm just paying closer attention, or maybe it's just because I've geen doing the Instincto thing for about 10 years now, and am in very good touch with my instincts.
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For what its worth, I agree that many modern fruits (particularly in non-tropic areas) are no doubt sweeter than those eaons ago. But I am not sure it makes so much difference regarding instinctive stop (well not for me). When the fruit gets uncomfortably sweet, thats that, has lost its appeal. Yum is no longer yum. So if the fruit is super sweet, the amount it takes to get to stop is usually just less. (Unless of course, one is in need of higher amounts of carbohydrate at the time, but still a point comes where enough is enough).
'Overeating' is not so easily to define in my opinion, because mostly we have preconceived ideas about how much of individual foods we should or shouldn't eat, but this may not match physiological requirements at the time.
Bodily homeostasis is a wonderful mechanism.
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Pineapple is a sweet fruit. If you're eating sour ones, then you're getting low-quality, low-Brix ones. I don't the sour/low-Brix ones.
Any fatty food gives me a very sudden change, including fatty meats.
As far as other sweet fruits go, I generally do get a stop with them. Maybe I'm just paying closer attention, or maybe it's just because I've geen doing the Instincto thing for about 10 years now, and am in very good touch with my instincts.
I would say pine apples I eat are sour-sweet, they are very sweet comparing to other fruits but feeling of sourness kicks in pretty quickly.
I wonder if instincts make you overeat slightly but constantly? After all it makes sense in environment where food is scarce to overeat at any opportunity. Could it be that your body is in state of chronic overeating due to instincts?
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'Overeating' is not so easily to define in my opinion, because mostly we have preconceived ideas about how much of individual foods we should or shouldn't eat, but this may not match physiological requirements at the time.
Bodily homeostasis is a wonderful mechanism.
Physiological requirements may not match instinctive requirements. It seems logical to me that given a chance, ancient man would eat far beyond physiological requirements at the moment to make storage of nutrients for future period of famine.
My point is maybe providing body with constant and wide supply of foods around the year is not natural and leads to chronic overeating.
I started to think about it when found out about GCB wife cause. It is very sad and unexpected but can be explained by idea of overeating. As GCB stated himself, she overate beef for a long time which would be impossible in wilderness, where such kind of meet was rare commodity.
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My experience has been that instincto principles cure overeating. For years, I had what was called binge-eating disorder. It stopped immediately when I started eating raw foods the way that GCB outlines. On the occasions that I eat cooked or processed foods for social events, it is impossible for me to find the stop. In addition, all that psycho-babble about eating disorders was a lot of hot air, IMO. I cannot address other people's experiences, but this is what happens to me.
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My experience has been that instincto principles cure overeating. For years, I had what was called binge-eating disorder. It stopped immediately when I started eating raw foods the way that GCB outlines. On the occasions that I eat cooked or processed foods for social events, it is impossible for me to find the stop. In addition, all that psycho-babble about eating disorders was a lot of hot air, IMO. I cannot address other people's experiences, but this is what happens to me.
Hi Eveheart,
Very pertinent and profound, for what my opinion is worth. Appetite exists, not something that needs to be mistrusted or tricked by convincing oneself otherwise.
Thank you for sharing
Kind wishes, J
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My experience has been that instincto principles cure overeating. For years, I had what was called binge-eating disorder. It stopped immediately when I started eating raw foods the way that GCB outlines. On the occasions that I eat cooked or processed foods for social events, it is impossible for me to find the stop. In addition, all that psycho-babble about eating disorders was a lot of hot air, IMO. I cannot address other people's experiences, but this is what happens to me.
No doubt, people would eat less on raw paleo diet then on SAD diet but I wonder if it is still too much.. After all GCB admitted himself that he and his wife overate beef. Blaming selection for that seems like a stretch to me. Feast/famine theory seems more feasible to me.
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I used to get slight pollen allergy symptoms if I ate too much sugar (i. e. too much fruit high in sugar) so I hypothesized that instincto leads me to overeat sugar. However, this year I don´t notice any pollen allergy symptom at all although I eat a lot of dates or a lot of bananas from time to time. The pollen count is currently high, but it seems that there is nothing I can do to provoke allergy symptoms (within my usual raw food diet). ;D
Anyway, instincto will lead you to overeat if there is nothing interesting (and enjoyable) to do except eating. In this case, you´ll tend to accept even unpleasant sensations when eating. The more you´ll enjoy life, the less you´ll be willing to accept unpleasant sensations when eating and the more you´ll consequently observe your instinctive signals.
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Including plenty of fat in the diet will cure overeating. That's where instincto often fails, people often don't eat enough fat.
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Anyway, instincto will lead you to overeat if there is nothing interesting (and enjoyable) to do except eating. In this case, you´ll tend to accept even unpleasant sensations when eating. The more you´ll enjoy life, the less you´ll be willing to accept unpleasant sensations when eating and the more you´ll consequently observe your instinctive signals.
That's true for cooked foods also. A lot of people who forget to eat while doing something exiting. Other people overeat because they don't have enough pleasure in their lives otherwise. I still can't see how instincts can protect us from overeating if it makes perfect sense from evolutionary perspective to have instincts that make us overeat at every opportunity as such opportunities are rare in the wilderness.
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Including plenty of fat in the diet will cure overeating. That's where instincto often fails, people often don't eat enough fat.
Hm, shouldn't instinct make people eat more fat?
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Including plenty of fat in the diet will cure overeating. That's where instincto often fails, people often don't eat enough fat.
You´ll have to find a balance between fats, carbs and protein, including sufficient animal protein. If you don´t eat sufficient animal protein, for example, you may get out of balance because you may not get enough protein or not enough of certain amino acids. In this case, your "instinct" will tend to accept an overload with certain nutrients just to get sufficient protein or the missing amino acid. For example, if you are a raw vegan, your instinct may drive you to eat loads of bananas just to get sufficient protein from the bananas and will thereby accept an overload of sugar from these bananas, because protein is very important for your body. Or alternatively your instinct will drive you to eat loads of nuts to get sufficient protein from the nuts and will thereby accept an overload of fats from the nuts, because it is more important to get sufficient protein than to protect your body from an overload of fat.
I still can't see how instincts can protect us from overeating if it makes perfect sense from evolutionary perspective to have instincts that make us overeat at every opportunity as such opportunities are rare in the wilderness.
How do you define "overeating"? In my defintion "overeating" has a negative effect on health. Putting on weight has not necessarily a negative effect on health. I´m happy whenever my "instincts" (and my budget) "allow" me to eat lots of calories and put on weight.
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How do you define "overeating"? In my defintion "overeating" has a negative effect on health. Putting on weight has not necessarily a negative effect on health. I´m happy whenever my "instincts" (and my budget) "allow" me to eat lots of calories and put on weight.
By overeating I mean eating more that needed by the body. Body ability to store and dispose fat tells us that it evolved in fast/famine circumstances, which means eat more than needed in certain period of time when food is abundant and use fat reserves when there is food scarcity. I believe it was extremely rare that our ancestors had access to any food they wanted whole year round. I don't know how monkeys are fed in captivity but I think if you provide a monkey with its natural raw food and allow it eat ad libitum it will get chronically fat and receive bunch of diseases.
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Whatever I do to evoke allergy symptoms is still futile this spring. Adieu allergies! ;D For the time being I´m reconciled with fruit including high-sugar fruit such as dates.
I believe it was extremely rare that our ancestors had access to any food they wanted whole year round. I don't know how monkeys are fed in captivity but I think if you provide a monkey with its natural raw food and allow it eat ad libitum it will get chronically fat and receive bunch of diseases.
AFAIK this is pure nonsense. I just can link a German article (see page 3, "Steinzeitmärchen", and particularly page 16), but you probably will find informations about that in English too.
http://www.euleev.de/images/EULEN-SPIEGEL/2005/2005-5-6_i_web_EULE.pdf (http://www.euleev.de/images/EULEN-SPIEGEL/2005/2005-5-6_i_web_EULE.pdf)
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AFAIK this is pure nonsense. I just can link a German article (see page 3, "Steinzeitmärchen", and particularly page 16), but you probably will find informations about that in English too.
Nice, looks like a start of good discussion. Hopefully you can provide better reasons than a link to article in foreign language.
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You could, of course, use the various online translating devices at your disposal rather than ignorantly condemning sources in other languages.
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You could, of course, use the various online translating devices at your disposal rather than ignorantly condemning sources in other languages.
You could, of course, not to tell people what they could or couldn't do. It was rude to point me to source in such a way. I hope that Hanna can state her point in her own words.
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Sorry, carnivorousape, I didn´t mean to be rude.
Nice, looks like a start of good discussion. Hopefully you can provide better reasons than a link to article in foreign language.
It´s (currently) too time consuming for me to discuss this topic in English (please remember that English is a foreign language to me ;)). Just wanted to link this article in case that you or other persons who are interested speak German.
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Sorry, carnivorousape, I didn´t mean to be rude.
It´s (currently) too time consuming for me to discuss this topic in English (please remember that English is a foreign language to me ;)). Just wanted to link this article in case that you or other persons who are interested speak German.
I speak German.
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Sorry, carnivorousape, I didn´t mean to be rude.
It´s (currently) too time consuming for me to discuss this topic in English (please remember that English is a foreign language to me ;)). Just wanted to link this article in case that you or other persons who are interested speak German.
No worries Hanna, English is foreign to me also! I am not going to send reference in Russian though as computer translation produces utter rubbish :)
It would be interesting to discuss this point further when you have time or Tyler helps with translation from German to see how pure nonsense this is :)
I know that cats get pretty overweight when fed ad libitum, these beasts ask for food at any opportunity! (i.e. when they don't sleep or chase opposite sex, ah that's the life!)
Wonder what happens to our closer relatives when allowed to eat whatever they want. This would be great test of instincto as it is easier to do with apes in controlled environment than with people.
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I speak German.
Tyler, that would be great if you helped with translation if you are interested in this topic!
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I know that cats get pretty overweight when fed ad libitum, these beasts ask for food at any opportunity! (i.e. when they don't sleep or chase opposite sex, ah that's the life!)
Note that I've seen a lot of evidence against that in the rawfeeding community... not sure if that includes you. I also find it anecdotally true, myself. I feed all my pets (2 dogs 1 cat) 95%+ raw meat, bones, and organs, with some random other treats. All of them are allowed to gorge fairly frequently (e.g. a whole chicken is left out and they can eat their fill) and they are all pretty lean.
I think cats (and dogs) tend to get pretty obese when you feed them as much as they want of "pet food" which is basically just cheetos sprays with enough vitamins to survive and meat waste so that it smells/tastes appealing. It's a similar concept to us overeating cooked food.
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My feral cats never would eat until the gorged even on totally crap cat kibbles. They are very particular about how much they want and soon as they are done they walk away. I couldn't overfeed the cats if I tried. I've given them raw meat too and they don't gorge on that either.
I had a beagle that would gorge herself to the point of sickness, but only after she was spayed - before that never when she wasn't all raw and when she was all raw. I'm pretty sure it was a hormonal imbalance. For my other two dogs I leave a dried raw food out all the time and feed them slankers raw pet food once a day. They leave whatever they don't want - and they leave lots at each meal. The chickens get the slankers that they leave behind.
I however have never been wealthy enough to feed the chickens all the slankers they could eat. They will leave seeds behind though.
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Interesting. Manufactured cat food would definitely lead to consequences.
In my experiences cats do get fat even on the raw food, especially before winter. Maybe it has to do with the type of raw food they are fed. Do you feed your cat mostly with muscle meat or organs and fish?
This guy shares his experience about leopards:
http://www.2ndchance.info/bigcatdiet.htm (http://www.2ndchance.info/bigcatdiet.htm)
Feeding as much as the cat will eat leads to obesity.
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Mostly muscle meat with some organs. She also gets a lot of whole prey when it's nice outside. She does bulk up a little in the winter, but I find that 50% of it is just a thicker and longer coat, and then there's just a little bit more fat packed on which I assume is natural heat/food storage. Allowing her to eat all that she wants, she would never get obese like most cats will on all you can eat corn chow.
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Maybe it has something to do with our mild winters, but feeding six feral cats nothing but super crappy cheap bagged cat food none of them would ever overeat. I found homes for most of them and now I'm trying to convert my favorite kitty to a raw diet of slankers pet food which is raw whole groundup grass-fed cow and he eats just enough to keep himself at a nice weight. But bulking up a bit for winter is a completely natural. If a cat has to live outdoors in the cold why begrudge it enough food to do that?
Maybe it also has something to do with having cats incarcerated where they aren't always moving and exercising like my ferals are. Also, I've noticed that eating is a communal activity for them. It's very important for them to do lots of rubbing and connecting with one another and they wait turns.
But my dogs are incarcerated couch potatoes and still don't overeat their raw food. hmmmm.
I wonder if over-eating occurs if whole animals with all the organs are not fed to them? Or, I wonder what kind of medications, vaccinations, operations etc. animals that overeat have gotten - like my poor beagle.