HED - High Everything Diet using Raw Paleo Food? High Metabolism A Good Thing?

[goodsamaritan]

Yo Matt Stone and buddies.

I've read the new ebook you posted and found it interesting.
http://www.180degreehealth.com/

Two questions:

#1 - Is having a high metabolism always a good thing?  When is it good and when is it not?  Should we always be on high metabolism?  Or should we just switch it to high at times and keep it low normally?  Does high metabolism shorten life?  Burn hot and bright and burn out young?  Please explain.

#2 - How to execute a high everything diet with raw paleo food?

I know how to eat lots of raw meat and raw fat, juice veggies, and what about fruit?  No fructose right?  So what do we use for the high amounts of carbs?  Can I use starchy bananas?  Which fruit can give high carbs but not fructose?

[goodsamaritan]

Fruits of your labor: many bodybuilders overlook fruit, one of the best food groups for muscle growth

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_7_22/ai_n6170379/

Interesting stuff:

 Fructose is not directly utilized by muscles the way that glucose and dextrose are. These other simple sugars are readily converted to muscle glycogen, the form of carbohydrates that are stored in muscles. Having well-stocked muscle glycogen stores helps you recover and grow and helps you perform better at your next workout. It also gives muscles a full appearance that bodybuilders seek.

When you take in fructose, though, it must first travel to the liver before it can be converted to glycogen. The problem with fructose arises when your liver glycogen levels are full. At this point, fructose gets converted to fat and is stored, which increases the size of your fat cells. As it's often hard to gauge when your liver glycogen stocks are full, many bodybuilders opt for avoiding fruit altogether. Such extreme measures may actually be counterproductive, as eliminating fruits also excludes the nutrients they offer.

The best time to eat fruit is immediately upon waking. At this time of day, your liver glycogen levels are low, because your body has used them as an energy source while you slept. With low liver glycogen levels, your body turns to your muscles and begins to break them down for energy. When you eat fruit immediately upon waking, you provide your body with an alternate energy source, which helps end muscle catabolism.

Another good time to eat fruit is 30-60 minutes before a workout, particularly if you haven't eaten a high-carb meal for several hours. The fructose will fill the liver with glycogen, which will deliver glucose to the working muscles and help to spare muscle glycogen. As a bonus, fructose also doesn't block fat burning during exercise the way that glucose tends to do.

After your workouts is also a great time. At that point, though, generally opt for fruits that are higher in glucose than fructose. Glucose is more readily available for storage as glycogen, and it will better help spike your insulin levels to allow for more efficient muscle growth. For the best fruit choices for each of these times of day, see the chart, "Pickin' Fruit."

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Maybe this is why I have a high amount of body fat.  From eating fruit.
But then again, Aajonus thinks having extra fat is a good thing for health.
Yo HED people, need your inputs here.

[kurite]

I can't say that I read the whole book but I don't believe a lot of what he says. First of all he says that he gained fat when he was eating lots of fruit but he was also drinking juice (probably pasteurized) and candy. In my opinion that's a crappy way to test something out.

In your quoted paragraph it says that a good time to eat fruit is after a workout, however in recent studies this has been totally untrue and actually has a negative affect.

"However, there are 2 reasons that fruit might not be the ideal food to eat immediately after a workout. First, a recent study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that eating a low-carbohydrate meal after aerobic exercise enhances your insulin sensitivity. This is highly beneficial, since impaired insulin sensitivity, or insulin resistance, is the underlying cause of type 2 diabetes and a significant risk factor for other chronic diseases, such as heart disease (1).  Second, consuming any sugar–including fructose–after exercising has been shown to dramatically decrease the fat-burning effect of human growth hormone that is associated with intense physical activity."

http://landanimal.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/fruit-may-be-good-for-weight-loss-but-bad-post-workout/

To be honest I think the guy is far beyond standard American dieters but hes still a little off course. After all he recommends grains and potatoes.  Do you have low body temperature? A lot of what he says is similar to the paleo diet.

[cliff]

In your quoted paragraph it says that a good time to eat fruit is after a workout, however in recent studies this has been totally untrue and actually has a negative affect.

"However, there are 2 reasons that fruit might not be the ideal food to eat immediately after a workout. First, a recent study in the Journal of Applied Physiology found that eating a low-carbohydrate meal after aerobic exercise enhances your insulin sensitivity. This is highly beneficial, since impaired insulin sensitivity, or insulin resistance, is the underlying cause of type 2 diabetes and a significant risk factor for other chronic diseases, such as heart disease (1).  Second, consuming any sugar–including fructose–after exercising has been shown to dramatically decrease the fat-burning effect of human growth hormone that is associated with intense physical activity."

You realize this is in regards to people trying to lose weight??  Depending on the workout you will have produced cortisol, insulin is antagonistic to cortisol(i.e. insulin go;s up cortisol go's down).  You also realize protien raises insulin as well and will cause the same problems?

You want your insulin to go up after exercise to get fuel to your muscles, go anabolic and decrease cortisol, go tell elite athletes not to refuel with carbs after a workout and they'll laugh in your face.

[KD]

Stone references high-er amounts of regular dietary carbs than any kind of post workout loading (which is arguably unnecessary even if 'ideal' for that particular pursuit) , usually from cooked or otherwise processed sources like which were traditionally chosen by HG's over fruits (as a main fuel source) even in relative abundance. While I disagree with Stone in many ways, this seems to be the crucial misunderstanding among all citing of high-carb societies within the raw community. It is basically impossible to replace raw=better into this equation especial in regard to modern fruits with modern bodies which can = major problems that don't even exist with cooked carbs as severely, like fermentation.

I can't say for certain, but I suspect an all raw version of Matt's diet could not be executed, as it seems to be somewhat antithetical to some of the key components of the philosophy. Whether temperature is any indicator of healthy (mine seems to be 99-100 these days), the likelihood of raising it with a raw high-fruit hight-fat diet seems unlikely to me.

[actionhero]

HED Raw Paleo? Yes it can be done but with a twist.

- 100% high cal fruitarian during summer months, 2500-3000 kcal daily

- the rest of the year high fat zero carb carnivore

That's the only way it could work. High fruit with high fat doesn't work. It creates hell inside your body. High fruit with high meat is also less than optimal. You are castrating yourself hormonally if you do so. Only ZC balances everything out and produces a strong and powerful human being. Looking back on everything I've experienced fruit is best eaten as mono food for a couple weeks but no more than 2 months. Living on fruit alone for years is stupid. It manifests in extremely weird and creepy behavior because of devolution to a lesser state of being caused by deficiencies.           

[TylerDurden]

Actually, that's not the case. High-fat/high-sugar diets are only a problem if the resulting diet is largely cooked. Lots of raw fat with lots of  raw carbs like raw fruit works fine for many people.

[cherimoya_kid]

In general, people at the fat or carb extremes report adrenal issues quite often.  I would imagine doing extremely high carb or fat for more than a few days at a time would start to get problematic for some people, re: adrenals.  Your adrenals rarely handle extremes well.

[KD]

Your comment generally as with other conversations seems to be that macro 'extremes' should be avoided, at least for some. Most people seem to rationalize those extremes because the alternative is not workable, either causing outright negative symptoms or because of ideas based on 'science' of how these systems process energy. Mainly diets higher in carbs I guess (than whatever value associated with 'low') being inefficient at garnering energy from the larger volume of fats while simultaneously being too low in carbs for energy.

 i.e. that all 'moderate' carb diets are by default either too high or too low but still carb-based energy systems. I was more looking for a criticism of that or commentary on how that approach is indeed more workable.

generally, not going to extremes re: carbs/fats/protein is helpful for adrenal issues.

You've mentioned alot lately about this in regards to other issues or long term stability of those extremes. I was wondering if you can expand on that more in another thread. I know Hannibal for a time was claiming to switch between VLC and something of a higher carb (more than traditional LC values anyway) along with consistant 'high' fat and presumably still alot of protein. hey...high everything!

Not sure how this pans out in regards to whatever other theories are out there which seem to contradict that as dooable, despite being often the mode in cooked societies anyway. I'm sure more than myself would be interested. If you didn't want to start a new thread maybe you could comment here?

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/hed-high-everything-diet-using-raw-paleo-food-high-metabolism-a-good-thing/msg42543/#msg42543

[cherimoya_kid]

I have found several things to be very helpful re: the problems that come with carbs.  The most important is carb quality.  High-brix fruit is very important, if you're eating fruit.  Also, drier fruits like bananas, durian, wild berries, etc. seem to cause fewer problems than wetter fruits. A lot depends on the person, too.  Experimentation is necessary. 

Eating fat and/or minerals (like bone meal or healing clay) along with your fruit really seems to help some people. Definitely it helps me. Good fats to eat with fruit include avocado, fermented dairy, or just plain back fat. Some people report digestion or other issues when combining fruit with fat.  I don't. Definitely eating minerals like bone meal and healing clay with fruit is very useful.

Mineral supplements are generally very helpful in reducing the problems that come from carbs.

[Dorothy]

I have found several things to be very helpful re: the problems that come with carbs.  The most important is carb quality.  High-brix fruit is very important, if you're eating fruit.  Also, drier fruits like bananas, durian, wild berries, etc. seem to cause fewer problems than wetter fruits. A lot depends on the person, too.  Experimentation is necessary. 

Eating fat and/or minerals (like bone meal or healing clay) along with your fruit really seems to help some people. Definitely it helps me. Good fats to eat with fruit include avocado, fermented dairy, or just plain back fat. Some people report digestion or other issues when combining fruit with fat.  I don't. Definitely eating minerals like bone meal and healing clay with fruit is very useful.

Mineral supplements are generally very helpful in reducing the problems that come from carbs.

Cherimoya, I know that clays are used to absorb heavy metals, what about the clays absorbing the minerals in the fruit? Does that happen?

[cherimoya_kid]

Cherimoya, I know that clays are used to absorb heavy metals, what about the clays absorbing the minerals in the fruit? Does that happen?

It doesn't matter. The net result is that you get more minerals (at least from the clays I use, expecially Terramin).  Besides, experimentally speaking, I find the clays to be very useful.  I actually usually eat bone meal with fruit, instead of clay, but I think they both work.

[KD]

Probably some good points there but the reason I wanted to have a discussion in this thread is because what if the issue isn't avoiding or handling the 'carbs' themselves but about the general idea of macronutrients in regards to energy.

The sensitivity thing seems to be one issue, with some level of carb sensitivity seemingly coming with a LC (or even lower carb approach) itself. I can say that in my approach I have indeed less sensitivity to carbs than when I started which was partially caused presumably by eating years of raw high carb raw or raw/cooked moderate carb,protein,fat and the underlying issues that existed before that . Issues that wern't corrected or made worse on lower fat approaches. I have to assume this lack of sensitivity  is good, and almost 'lucky'  as many people in years of LC sometimes still seem to struggle eating much of any carbs, sometimes even in small amounts.

I assume that is not the goal, unless one is sold on the point that carbs are poison and wants to rationalize it the way some do to sensitivities of other foods, like lightly cooked food or whatever.

I can tolerate any carb (cooked or raw) in small quantities. Eating large quantities of carbs is a different story (although doesn't always immediately create any kind of serious symptom). It isn't always as much an issue of feeling bad per se based on 'eating alot of carbs' but just an issue of how the body is said to manufacture energy.

I've been reading and experimenting for years now and still don't understand how half these diets people claim to be on work (or don't work) particularly for active people. The fat with fruit thing per meal is one thing, but what about diets of half a lb of ruminant fat with 10 pieces of fruit daily? Maybe someone that follows Primal or a similar diet with tons of honey, milk, vegetables/juice etc. that also contain high levels of fats can chime in. Even if these or higher quality fruits are arguably considered less 'damaging' carbs they contribute carbs which inevitability with accumulate in grams (although even I might disagree with whole fresh milk which also has issues of proteins) . Despite AV's claims about honey and insulin, it must still contribute calories as grams of carbs, due to the lack of protein and fat.

[KD]

Hopefully others will chime in as this is an important issue. Even arguing against the idea of macronutrient control or importance inevitably is going to be considered to be a carb-burning diet. Or is it?

It does seem so doing the math. Saying a moderate carb diet or lower fat higher protein diet is preferable is akin to saying a diet that burns fatty acids is bad as that implies low carb. It has to be OR it is saying -like Hannibal was - that one can indeed 'enjoy' a fat burning metabolism while taking in plentiful carbs at times (more than 'cheat days' on CKD etc..), or even at a higher than presented level on a regular basis.