Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on October 04, 2013, 09:37:12 am
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I wanted to start a post about tips, tricks, and advice to eat the tough parts raw (IMO The Best) of the Animal such as Tendons, Ligaments, Cartilage, Bone and Collagen.
My first experiment was a success. I soaked a Lamb Knuckle in a quart of spring water with the juice of Two Limes for two days in the fridge. Then I left it at room temperature for 12 hours and consumed it for breakfast. I was able to get about half the desired collagen parts with a kitchen knife and now realize I need some better tools. Does anyone have any advice for good tools to use to get at the tough parts from the bones?
The first picture is the lamb knuckle soaking for two days before I eat it. Then the second is after I spent an hour on it with my teeth and a small kitchen knife serrated.
(http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t622/paper_clips43/IMG_1163_zpsc89d93c6.jpg?t=1380821925)
(http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t622/paper_clips43/IMG_1161_zps17819f1c.jpg?t=1380821930)
--------- original post by paper_clips43 ------------
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This seems like the act of chewing this would be healthy for teeth, strengthening gums, cleaning them, etc.
----------- reply by Dr. D --------------
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Another method of improving digestability of raw bones and connective tissue, in addition to acids, is fermentation. It's largely a lost art, though it's still practiced in Sudan:
"The Sudanese seem to bring just about anything edible or barely edible to the forge of the microbe, to the extent that one could confidently say: food in Sudan is fermented. The raw materials to be fermented include the better-known products such as sorghum, millet, milk, fish, and meat. Also, a number of unorthodox raw materials are fermented: bones, hides, skins, hooves, gall bladder, fat, intestines, caterpillars, locusts, frogs, and cow urine.
The bulk of these foods is poured into the bowl of sorghum porridge, being either a sorghum (or millet) staple or its sauce and relish. The few remaining ones are alcoholic or nonalcoholic beverages, the most important of which are prepared from sorghum. In other words, every fermented food item orbits around the sorghum grain."
(Applications of biotechnology to traditional fermented foods: report of an ad hoc panel of the Board on Science and Technology for International Development, National Research Council (U.S.). Panel on the Applications of Biotechnology to Traditional Fermented Foods, 1992, pp. 27-28)
"B vitamins increase in fermented foodstuffs and in waste. This could be why dogs bury marrow bones, and dig them up weeks later to lick out every bit of what they find tasty. B-1 may be one of qicker multiplying B vitamins that occur combining SBO's and marrow." http://www.giveittomeraw.com/forum/topics/why-cant-chinchillas-guinea (http://www.giveittomeraw.com/forum/topics/why-cant-chinchillas-guinea)
After the initial few weeks chewing on softer boiled bones, raw bones can be introduced. Raw bones provide more nutrition. Dogs are more prone to wanting to bury fresh bones because they like them to be “aged” and fermented with soild bacteria. This practice is safe (but messy) if your soil is clean and healthy. Dogs need some of the bacteria, yeasts, and minerals in the soil to help digest the bones better. They instinctually know this.
http://www.drbasko.com/site/tips-feeding-bones-dogs-safely/ (http://www.drbasko.com/site/tips-feeding-bones-dogs-safely/)
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Fascinating.
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What's there in cartilage so essential to go through so much trouble?
I think there is none. Cartilage gets broken down to the same amino acids as more digestible meat. In very lean times it surely adds extra nutrients. In other times I think it is totally not necessary.
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"What's there in cartilage so essential to go through so much trouble?
I think there is none. Cartilage gets broken down to the same amino acids as more digestible meat. In very lean times it surely adds extra nutrients. In other times I think it is totally not necessary."
Actually thats absolutely wrong.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml)
Cartilage has 0% tryptophan which muscle meat is full off. Cartilage is also full of glycine, proline, hydroxyproline which are scarce if at all present in muscle meat. So as you can see just from the amino acid content cartilage is the opposite of muscle meat.
Is it really that hard to think about how our paleo ancestors more than likely spent days only consuming old bones and know muscle meat until they got a fresh kill. Or you really think they just had a plethora of muscle meat at all times and only consume organs and muscles and threw the bones away?
When I find more relating to minerals and vitamins I can post a link as I am sure the composition is different as well.
I just ordered a wish bone tendon, and an achilles tendon from northstar bison and am going to post pics and experiences when I get them. Today I consumed another lamb foot and lots of lamb marrow with a little bit of lamb neck meat and fat. I was surprised at how much energy I had from yesterdays cartilage breakfast and am wondering how ill feel today.
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@Paleo Phil
The first link was broken and I was not able to access it. I am very interested in fermenting the bone and before I start that experiment I would like to see if I could use something other than sorghum. I wonder if fermenting them in whey would prove beneficial...
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I am very interested in fermenting the bone and before I start that experiment I would like to see if I could use something other than sorghum. I wonder if fermenting them in whey would prove beneficial...
Sandor Ellix Katz describes fermentation of bones in whey in his book The Art of Fermentation. His description includes very long (like a year) soaking of bones in whey. Your process reminds me of no-heat bone broth made by soaking bones in water with a smidgeon of acid (like lime juice or vinegar). I made a batch as soon as I read your post. I'll eat it this weekend.
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Cartilage is also full of glycine, proline, hydroxyproline which are scarce if at all present in muscle meat. So as you can see just from the amino acid content cartilage is the opposite of muscle meat.
All are totally non essential.
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Sandor Ellix Katz describes fermentation of bones in whey in his book The Art of Fermentation. His description includes very long (like a year) soaking of bones in whey. Your process reminds me of no-heat bone broth made by soaking bones in water with a smidgeon of acid (like lime juice or vinegar). I made a batch as soon as I read your post. I'll eat it this weekend.
You only use a small amount of acid in order to be able to drink the water afterwards? Thats smart. Im going to try that next. I was hoping to soften the cartilage more with more acid.
All are totally non essential.
Great point. Heres a theory
So non essential means non essential because the body creates itself. Maybe these amino acids are so important to our body's that the body creates them itself. Where as essential amino acids are ok to go a day or two with out. In fact they me be prove beneficial to fast from.
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We perhaps need someone to provide an info-page to sticky on the fermentation of raw bones.
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@Paleo Phil
The first link was broken and I was not able to access it.
Aw, that's sad, the giveittomeraw forum finally bit the dust completely. Anyone know if it's archived somewhere? If not, a boatload of info evaporated. Could happen to this or any other forum too. Info on the Internet is so fleeting.
I am very interested in fermenting the bone and before I start that experiment I would like to see if I could use something other than sorghum. I wonder if fermenting them in whey would prove beneficial...
Yes, that was my guess and it looks like it's the case. Thanks, Eveheart.
His description includes very long (like a year) soaking of bones in whey.
Interestingly, I've seen an Eskimo man say that high meat is also best after a year of fermentation.
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Hmm, I think I read somewhere that forums have an average lifespan of only 5 years. Hope this forum goes on forever.
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So non essential means non essential because the body creates itself. Maybe these amino acids are so important to our body's that the body creates them itself. Where as essential amino acids are ok to go a day or two with out. In fact they me be prove beneficial to fast from.
If you think bone joints are good for you, you can have mine. I throw a lot of them away.
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whats the exact process of bone broth raw with vinegar? Does it really work?
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Well I only know from experience. And very recent experience at that. I have to continue to experiment and see what works. I drank the broth today of some lime juice and a splash of ACV that had two lamb knuckles soaking in it for about 3 days and it was very satiating. I don’t know of any research on the subject although I have plans to do my own. Eating the knuckles for breakfast the past few days definitely felt nourishing.
One idea I had so far was to see how much protein the broth is extracting would be to boil a batch down at some point into pure gelatin and see how much you get.
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You only use a small amount of acid in order to be able to drink the water afterwards? Thats smart. Im going to try that next.
Lime/lemon squeezed into some water (which a Naturopath had recommended to me to consume before meals to improve digestion) tasted better to me than I expected the first time I tried it and it didn't take long to develop a taste for it. Now it tastes sweet to me, especially if I use Meyer lemons (a sweeter variety). I can now even drink straight lemon juice or eat a lemon if I wish, and enjoy it. I suspect that our ancestors enjoyed foods that were more tart and bitter than most moderners do (some bitter foods now also taste sweet to me, BTW).
...So non essential means non essential because the body creates itself. Maybe these amino acids are so important to our body's that the body creates them itself. Where as essential amino acids are ok to go a day or two with out. In fact they me be prove beneficial to fast from.
You may be right. It's that way with the so-called "essential fatty acids"--they turned out to be less important than the so-called "nonessential" fats DHA and arachidonic acid. The latter are so crucial, the body makes its own in times of scarcity, whereas it doesn't bother to produce essential fatty acids because they are so plentiful in nature (and even more so nowadays).
The consumption of the amino acids found in the gelatin of connective tissues has declined and they have been found to produce health benefits:
"In the industrialized societies, the consumption of gelatin has decreased, relative to the foods that contain an inappropriately high proportion of the antimetabolic amino acids, especially tryptophan and cysteine.
The degenerative and inflammatory diseases can often be corrected by the use of gelatin-rich foods."
- Ray Peat, Gelatin, stress, longevity, http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml)
Glycine: a new anti-inflammatory immunonutrient. Wheeler MD, Ikejema K, Mol Life Sci. Enomoto N, et al.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11212343 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11212343)
Samonina, G, et al. Protection of gastric mucosal integrity by gelatin and simple proline containing peptides, Pathophysiology, April 2000, 7, 1, 69–73.
Koyama, et al. Ingestion of gelatin has differential effect on bone mineral density and bodyweight in protein undernutrtion, Journal of Nutrition and Science of Vitaminology, 2000, 47, 1, 84–86.
Some RPDers report being very sensitive to various foods. Gelatin was found to reduce food sensitivities (Pottenger, FM, Hydrophilic colloid diet, Health and Healing Wisdom, Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation Health Journal, Spring 1997, 21, 1, 17.).
When humans are healthy and robust, they can consume more bone and connective tissues than today's soft moderners realize. Take the example of Saiti dan Garba of Nigeria who eats "bones raw and draws out the juicy marrows of sheep" and "said that sheep bone is tenderer for chewing" (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/nigeria-'i-eat-raw-meat-so-what'/msg15178/#msg15178 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/nigeria-'i-eat-raw-meat-so-what'/msg15178/#msg15178)).
Via the evidence of Stone Age human remains we know that our ancestors had much larger and more robust teeth, jaws and bones and so likely consumed more bone and connective tissue than even the most robust people of today. So presumably we have some genetic adaptation to eating some of those foods. As human teeth, jaws and bones shrunk, people developed other ways of continuing to consume bones and connective tissues, such as utilizing soaking, acids and fermentation and eventually cooking. Industrialized societies recently largely abandoned consumption of these ancient foods and now often wastefully dispose of much of them. Why assume that we can exclude this part of our Paleo dietary template without any negative consequences? Wouldn't that just be wishful thinking?
One idea I had so far was to see how much protein the broth is extracting would be to boil a batch down at some point into pure gelatin and see how much you get.
Have you gotten any thick gelatin from your raw broths? I've yet to try it and I don't have Sandor Katz's book for his fermentation technique.
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Yes my first broth was slightly thick and this was at room temperature. I also couldn’t drink all of it making me think it had a decent amount of protein. Looking back on it I feel like it tasted a lot less sour then I would expect water with two limes in it to taste. Maybe it was partially fermented. I enjoyed it though and am absolutely going to keep making it and drinking it. If anything it was hydrating and the limes are good for digestion. Its also a lot easier than I thought it would be. I just now bought some grass fed cow knuckles (frozen) from the health food store and have them now soaking in water with just one lime this time.
Also, the lamb knuckles after soaking a few days in the acid broth had pockets of clear gelatin in the raw hanging off it that were so delicious.
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I am probably going to have to buy the book "The art of fermentation" in the very near future. I shouldn’t right now though due to all the money I just spent on a ferriers file, a flint knife, and a large order of bones to arrive on Thursday. Maybe someone can post the directions and recipes if they own a copy.
I have access to 100%grass fed whey (locally) and am going to try lacto-fermenting the bones as soon as I can. I wonder if Sandor mentions the bones being refrigerated that whole year or left at room temperature. I am also curios if submerging the bones in liquid is going to promote harmful anaerobic bacteria.
Thats incredible information about the fats. I hadn’t made that connection. Who classifies these things anyway? Is it the FDA?
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Could someone do a full list of instructions and report on this fermentation of bones so that I can sticky it. Thanks!
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I have found that authors who write about unconventional fermentation (as opposed to mainstream products like sauerkraut, kimchi, idli, etc.) can be vague when compared to modern recipe writing. I don't think this is a deliberate attempt to be unclear; rather, the process of fermentation is very forgiving and can be achieved in many different ways.
Katz's reference was to a vat of whey was from a woman in Iceland:
Fish was almost always dried rather than soured, although certain parts of it might be preserved in sýra [whey] — mostly parts that may not be considered food nowadays, like the stomach, the swim bladder, milt, roe, liver, skin, tail, fins etc. (We are talking about a cuisine of extreme poverty, where everything was utilized). Even the fish bones (along with other bones) were sometimes soured for a year or more, then boiled until they turned into a soft mass which was eaten. I’m told that most bones will go soft if kept in sýra long enough— I haven’t tried. Meat was and is soured but the most common food to be soured is offal— heads and headcheese, trotters, blood pudding, liver sausage (rather similar to haggis), ram’s testicles, intestines, udders, and seal flippers, whale blubber, seabirds, etc. Eggs were sometimes boiled, shelled and preserved in sýra; small seabird eggs were sometimes soured with the shell on and then the shell would gradually dissolve over time. I currently have a small plastic tub in my fridge, full of sýra with blood pudding, liver sausage, head cheese and ram’s testicles. Rögnvaldardóttir reports that sýra can be continually refreshed and used as a perpetual medium. Referring to her mother, she writes: “I don’t think she ever changes her sýra, just adds more whey as needed— I think her current batch has been going for 12 years or so.”
Katz, Sandor Ellix (2012-05-15). The Art of Fermentation: An In-Depth Exploration of Essential Concepts and Processes from Around the World (Kindle Locations 9616-9630). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Another example of fermentation affecting bones in Katz's book is Japanese narezushi:
Japanese nare zushi, historically made not only from fish, but also from mammals and birds, is traditionally a much longer-term ferment. The most famous surviving example of this process is funa zushi, a special regional delicacy made from funa, a freshwater fish in the carp family (Carassius auratus grandoculis), unique to a single lake, Lake Biwa in Japan’s Shiga prefecture. The fish are caught in spring, cleaned, and stuffed with salt. They cure just in salt, weighted down to keep them from floating to the top of the vessel, for a few months, or as long as two years. After the salt cure, they are rinsed and mixed with cooked rice, for the fish and rice to ferment together for six months to two years. Some funa zushi makers feel that “two years are needed for the bones to get tender,” over which time the rice too gets so tender that it loses its form and
Katz, Sandor Ellix (2012-05-15). The Art of Fermentation: An In-Depth Exploration of Essential Concepts and Processes from Around the World (Kindle Locations 9563-9571). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.
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That's really interesting. We have really lost out on a lot of useful bacteria by going to this ultra-sterilized lifestyle. I am more and more glad that I eat high fish. It may stink, but...I think it really is important for health.
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I have found that authors who write about unconventional fermentation (as opposed to mainstream products like sauerkraut, kimchi, idli, etc.) can be vague when compared to modern recipe writing. I don't think this is a deliberate attempt to be unclear; rather, the process of fermentation is very forgiving and can be achieved in many different ways.
Katz's reference was to a vat of whey was from a woman in Iceland:
Another example of fermentation affecting bones in Katz's book is Japanese narezushi:
Do they mention if it is refrigerated or not?
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There is a book called "The Permaculture Book of Ferment and Human Nutrition" by Bill Mollison, it had a ton of recipes for meat, fish and eggs. Does any one happen to have a copy? That may also have some recipes for cartilage and bones.
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If the old techniques of making bones and connective tissues more readily digestible without using cooking work, it would be another strong counter to the claims by coctivores that cooking is essential.
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I just saw an amazing doc. called Human Planet. It showed how the Inuit of Greenland catch birds with long poles and nets, and then stuff about five hundred (they are rather small birds) in a big bushel sized seal skin. They stomp repeatedly all the air out and then stitch it shut, smearing some kind of animal grease all over the seam, and bury under huge rocks. They do this towards the end of the summer, and three months later, they start eating it throughout the winter. They showed them eating one raw, stripping off the feathers and skin, and eating the whole bird raw. They favored it the most of any of their foods, and always had them at weddings etc. as The most gourmet food they could offer. The point here is that the bones, skull etc, were consumed.
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There is a book called "The Permaculture Book of Ferment and Human Nutrition" by Bill Mollison, it had a ton of recipes for meat, fish and eggs. Does any one happen to have a copy? That may also have some recipes for cartilage and bones.
I own the Mollison book, but I do not like it because it is more of a chronicle than a recipe book. It does not give food preparation details that I find useful, just a lot of nice, glossy pictures and descriptions. It was quite expensive.
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Do they mention if it is refrigerated or not?
Refrigeration or not is a tricky question because often fermentation was seasonal (after the harvest), which put the activity in the cooler months. There are summer and winter ferments, the summer one being for short term storage and quick consumption. Modern Koreans often buy a kimchi refrigerator which, like an electric wine cellar, keeps the fermenting batches at 55 degrees F. to simulate the temperature of a buried crock.
I live in an area with summer highs in the 80s and winter highs around 60. In this temperature range, I use the concept of summer vs. winter fermentation. I leave a saltier summer fermentation out for a day and then refrigerate for a week or more. Winter fermentation can be out longer, and results in a tastier product with less (or no) salt.
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I just saw an amazing doc. called Human Planet. It showed how the Inuit of Greenland catch birds with long poles and nets, and then stuff about five hundred (they are rather small birds) in a big bushel sized seal skin.
Ah yes, kiviak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiviak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiviak)).
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I have definitely noticed that I can eat high fish/meat more easily when it's cold weather. The flavor doesn't bother me nearly as much.
Other than the obvious fact of digesting things being easier when it's warm, I bet there are other useful aspects to heavier fermentation for people enduring colder weather.
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Haai posted this in another thread and it basically says the reason we have bigger brains is due to bones and brains we were able to gather from the kills of other animals.
http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fatty-Acid-Composition-and-Energy-Density-of-Foods-Available-to-African-Hominids.pdf (http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fatty-Acid-Composition-and-Energy-Density-of-Foods-Available-to-African-Hominids.pdf)
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Haai posted this in another thread and it basically says the reason we have bigger brains is due to bones and brains we were able to gather from the kills of other animals.
http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fatty-Acid-Composition-and-Energy-Density-of-Foods-Available-to-African-Hominids.pdf (http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fatty-Acid-Composition-and-Energy-Density-of-Foods-Available-to-African-Hominids.pdf)
I just don't buy it. Nearly all primate lines have bigger brains than the ancestor species of all primates, but only some of those lines have been regular meat eaters over the last several million years or so.
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Throughout evolutionary history, carnivorous mammals have
always maintained a proportionately larger brain size relative to body size when
compared to their herbivorous prey.
http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fatty-Acid-Composition-and-Energy-Density-of-Foods-Available-to-African-Hominids.pdf (http://thepaleodiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Fatty-Acid-Composition-and-Energy-Density-of-Foods-Available-to-African-Hominids.pdf)
Vegans said wha??
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Throughout evolutionary history, carnivorous mammals have
always maintained a proportionately larger brain size relative to body size when
compared to their herbivorous prey.
So what happens if a tiger eats an herbivorous primate, like a monkey? :)
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Well, according to the article doesn't it mean that it's brain is bigger relative to it's body size anyways, simply due to carnivory? Nothing "new" would really happen.
Or are you using an example of breaking the previous statement? I don't know relative brain sizes of tigers and monkeys off the top of my head ;)
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Well, according to the article doesn't it mean that it's brain is bigger relative to it's body size anyways, simply due to carnivory? Nothing "new" would really happen.
Or are you using an example of breaking the previous statement? I don't know relative brain sizes of tigers and monkeys off the top of my head ;)
Monkeys have much larger brains per body size than tigers.
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I see. Well, I was just posting a line from the article. Take it up with the publishers if necessary! Haha. I also found that an odd line considering it was talking about fatty acids and hominids.
Jerison HJ: The Evolution of the Brain and Intelligence. New York, Academic Press, 1973, pp
287–319
Thats the official citation for that statement. Kind of an old book... I don't go to college anymore so I don't have the same access to wonderfully academic books. I'd be curious what those pages say and what evidence they are using.
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Plenty of primate species eat very little or no meat, and they have very large brains, compared to all other mammal species. There are vegan primates and heavy meat-eating primates, and most are somewhere in-between those two extremes.
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trying to use the theory of macroevolution to explain brain sizes by comparing completely different species of animals will only confuse you because it is a fraudulent theory.
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Like I said in the other thread, macroevolution supports a paleo diet for humans, because most other large primates eat a meat/fish (orangutans have been observed eating fish), fruit, and leaves diet, which is pretty similar to the ideal diet for most people.
Why would you preach paleo, but tear down some of the best scientific support for it?
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I preach raw not paleo.
THe reason that raw works is because al of the enzymes are still intact and all the nutrients are bound to water and completely bioactive when in their raw form and none of it has formed strange chemicals due to being processed by heat.
That there is the reason why raw food diet works to heal. Not some rehashed hindu myths given to us by sick degenerate inbreds about one type of creature magically transforming into another type of creature through "progress"/"enlightenment"
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Charles Darwin, I assure you, was not a Hindu. He was either an agnostic or a deist, depending on when in his life someone asked him. The older he got, the more agnostic, NOT atheistic, he became.
For that matter, most scientists are either agnostics, atheists, or have never bothered to change from the religion of their childhood. What are you even on about with all this? You are LITERALLY the first person I know of to relate Hinduism with macro-evolution, ever.