Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: dariorpl on March 05, 2015, 02:19:50 am
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Humans are the only mammal species I'm aware of where females develop udders/breasts and can lactate without getting pregnant and giving birth. Archeologists explain this by the idea that in hunter-gatherer tribes, all the females shared the raising and breastfeeding of all the babies in the tribe, which I certainly agree with. Although that is a lot of milk production for only the babies of the tribe. Under normal conditions, there would be many more women than children of breastfeeding age in a tribe. A single woman's milk production is generally enough to feed her own babies, especially if she is healthy, which she would've been.
I think what was actually going on is that milk was shared among all the tribe, not just the children, but adults too. It's inefficient if you look at it calorie-wise, but it could very well be efficient if you look at it nutrient-wise. Especially if they were also fermenting the milk and making it into cheese.
If that's not the case, I don't understand why animal herders later on, would begin drinking the milk of their herd as adults, if milk was disgusting to them. It makes much more sense to me that they would've already been used to consuming dairy as adults, and realized that they could milk their animals too.
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Errr, the point is that raw human mothers' milk is palaeo but that other animals' milk is definitely not palaeo.
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How are you defining paleo? What sort of evidence are you using to place your theory into the paleolithic era?
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Errr, the point is that raw human mothers' milk is palaeo but that other animals' milk is definitely not palaeo.
Ok, but if human dairy is paleo (and not just mother's milk), then it's not a huge difference to have other animals' dairy, or it might not be, and that was my point. Just like whenever you eat foods from any animal or plant species that isn't 100% wild, you are consuming food from a species that would not have been available in paleo times, but as long as it's close enough, it's fine.
How are you defining paleo? What sort of evidence are you using to place your theory into the paleolithic era?
By paleo I mean that it would've been normal for paleolithic humans and/or proto-humans. My only evidence is what I mentioned in the post above.
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Mothers' milk from other animals is too high or low in fat and is specifically designed to feed its own particular species, not other species.
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Humans are the only mammal species I'm aware of where females develop udders/breasts and can lactate without getting pregnant and giving birth.
My dog does the same. After her heat time, she has a week where she becomes totally hysterical and tries to dig a nesting area, even if she's not pregnant. Her mammals start to slightly lactate too. That's because she has to be able to take care of the Alpha female's little ones.
http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Canine_False_Pregnancy (http://dogs.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Canine_False_Pregnancy)
"Signs of Canine False Pregnancy
Lactation - The breasts generally swell a bit due to the hormonal changes involved with each stage of a dog's cycle, but a female that is going through an extended false pregnancy may actually begin milk production. You may notice a bit of milk leaking from one or more teats, or you may be able to express a little milk manually. This is not recommended because it can stimulate further production and prolong the condition."
So no, humans are not the only ones. And I don't think adult dogs (or their wolf ancestors) go and suck on the female's mammals to drink their milk. Might be wrong on this one though, but I doubt it.
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That's very interesting Jeune. I don't know enough about dogs or wolves to know if they do or don't drink milk as adults, but I would assume not.
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I've never observed a child who does not wean - and I'm sure there are uncommon exceptions - so it is hard to envision adults drinking human milk as a culinary habit. I don't think the milk becomes "disgusting" but that the instinct to suckle disappears.
Milk is a convenient food that the herder doesn't have to carry. He can herd his animals for days and have a supply of food. Also, drinking the milk of their herds seems logical in terms of utilizing every part of the animal.
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Mothers' milk from other animals is too high or low in fat and is specifically designed to feed its own particular species, not other species.
Cattle or sheep or oysters are not specifically designed to feed raw paleo people. Yes? No?
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Cattle or sheep or oysters are not specifically designed to feed raw paleo people. Yes? No?
Curious question. In terms of what each species is designed for: each species is designed to reproduce its own kind. Collaterally, carnivorous and omnivorous species eat the flesh of other species. That's way off the logic behind each species' milk being specifically designed for its offspring. TD is talking about mammalian milk being designed to meet the growth needs of its own species. For example, a fast growing small animal's milk would have less calcium than a fast growing large animal's milk. Human milk is designed for slow growing humans and is nowhere near approximated by bovine milk.
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TD is talking about mammalian milk being designed to meet the growth needs of its own species. For example, a fast growing small animal's milk would have less calcium than a fast growing large animal's milk. Human milk is designed for slow growing humans and is nowhere near approximated by bovine milk.
That's right, cow milk is designed to make their calves grow big and dumb: high intelligence is not necessary to their specie, but being able to outrun predators (at an early age) is. Humans, on the other hand, have the luxury to grow slowly since they can be carried by their mother untill a certain age. What's important to the specie, on the other hand, is to develop great intelligence.
Cow milk has three times more calcium than human milk, but also a high dose of phosphate which actually inhibits the absorption of calcium in the gut. The result, quite ironically, often is greater risk of hypocalcemia. This is the reason why dairy companies must add vitamin D3 to their milk to make its calcium content more-or-less digestible.
Other than that, their is also the issue of specie-specific hormones and proteins that cannot be properly broken down and utilized by another specie's organism, which often leads to gradually increasing health complications, or even death if the person is too young and/or too exclusively fed on it.
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What about drinking the milk of another carnivore? would be interesting!
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What about drinking the milk of another carnivore? would be interesting!
Drink some wolf's milk, you might actually turn into... a werewolf!! >D
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You raw paleo guys are too intelligent for me to confuse you. ;D
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There are really 4 problems with milk-drinking in adult humans.
1. Too much calcium without enough magnesium. Calcium without magnesium scars the arteries and promotes heart disease.
2. Too much phosphorus, which makes the calcium hard to absorb, and therefore promotes bone weakness and osteoporosis. I didn't know this until today, although it's a minor point.
3. Most people can't digest lactose beyond the age of 2.
4. Many people are allergic to the proteins in milk, as well.
However, I do use grassfed raw cream and butter, because they get around all these problems pretty well, since they are low in protein and lactose (butter has none of either).
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I wonder if someone was raised on breast milk form birth until adulthood, if they would maintain their ability to optimally digest it?
There are stories of 8 year olds nursing without any issues with intolerance whatsoever, so perhaps these primal dieters who claim to do well with dairy would absolutely thrive if they could get a hold of some fresh squeezed paleo momma milk?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kxRs75Myo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2kxRs75Myo)
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There are really 4 problems with milk-drinking in adult humans.
1. Too much calcium without enough magnesium. Calcium without magnesium scars the arteries and promotes heart disease.
2. Too much phosphorus, which makes the calcium hard to absorb, and therefore promotes bone weakness and osteoporosis. I didn't know this until today, although it's a minor point.
Some say that over-abundant minerals in whole foods don't cause harm; they exit the body naturally. Only the manufactured supplements cause harm. What do you think?
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Some say that over-abundant minerals in whole foods don't cause harm; they exit the body naturally. Only the manufactured supplements cause harm. What do you think?
I think it depends on
1. If you have enough of the co-factors (in the case of calcium, vitamins D and K)
2. Your genetics
the rawness and unprocessed-ness is a factor, but certainly not the only one.
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Thanks.
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Back in the early days of warnings against cows milk (in the last half of the twentieth century), the bone health of milk drinkers was compared to the bone health of cultures that do not drink milk. In examining the diet of the non-milk drinkers, calcium was found to be supplied by vegetables and seeds. Despite the fact that a milk-drinkers diet has an abundance of calcium, bone health is better is populations who get less calcium from plant sources.
Bottom line: if you avoid the unbalanced calcium in milk, bone health is easier to maintain with less daily calcium.
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cherimoya_kid, if too much calcium is a problem, but not enough calcium absorption is also a problem, don't those two cancel each other out?
eveheart, the second half of the twentieth century is also when raw milk was made illegal pretty much world-wide, as pasteurization became both commonplace and mandatory.
sabertooth, I can't say that I know from experience that raw dairy is healthy, because I haven't been able to find any. So I'm basically doing raw paleo, with occasional cooked grains mixed with a lot of fats, the way AV recommended (since I haven't been able to find reliable raw nuts which is what he recommended instead of starches, and even if I did, I can't get coconut cream which he said to mix with the nuts). When I'm able to try raw dairy, I will report back on this thread to see what happens. I fully expect symptoms to appear that I would think are detoxes, but of course you can disagree. The only real way to tell if something is a detox or not, is to do a lab test on the tissue being detoxed, and look for toxins that could not be present in daily intake, and in particular, toxins that aren't found in your supply of dairy; but I don't think I'll be able to afford those anytime soon.
I'll also take this opportunity to let you know that I think your videos are awesome and it's refreshing to see someone who is willing to put themselves out there on the open like that. We all know what most people think about us. I look forward to the future instances of your new series, and I've been sharing your videos with lots of people.
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cherimoya_kid, if too much calcium is a problem, but not enough calcium absorption is also a problem, don't those two cancel each other out?
You found a logical flaw. Good. finally, someone is thinking. :) Well, logic it out, and if you don't know enough facts to logic it out, research it. The long-timers here mostly either avoid dairy, or use it very carefully, like me. That should be a partial guide for you, but I encourage you to pursue this if you find it interesting.
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I like raw dairy products tho I do still agree raw animal fats are superior, tho I am eating lots of raw dairy to gain weight because I have severe damage to my glands hence the anxiety and low weight problems I've always had so I'm my view there helping me to gain weight and remove the damage because of the high fat in raw dairy is helping me tho in later I may stop or slow down dairy products but for now I think there helping
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Whats the consensus on colostrum, being the first milk full of immune stimulating proteins as well as prebiotic substances, it may be better tolerated and help one to be able to better adapt to raw dairy.
I cant handle raw dairy at all, and after a week of drinking small amounts each day my gut gets fouled up and I feel bloated and mucusy. But after watching a vitals video I was curious and bought a small container of surthrival colostrum and have used about 4 teaspoons a day this week. So far I have felt an energy boost and my digestion is working just fine, so there may be some benefit for those who want to experiment with dairy to first try out a high quality colostrum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USzPc0bzDH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USzPc0bzDH0)
I'm not selling anything and am not completely sold on the stuff yet, but I would like some input before I begin buying it by the kilogram and eating it every day?
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... it may be better tolerated and help one to be able to better adapt to raw dairy.
You're obviously talking about becoming accustomed because an adaptation, when and if possible, generally needs several thousand generations, perhaps a few millions years - which is a short duration in regard of evolution time scale!
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Not necessarily, accustomation and adaptation can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. In order to become accustom to something in ones own short lifetime, it often helps if one has descended from a genetic line of organisms that were once adapted to similar conditions.
For generations my ancestors ate high carb, cooked Neolithic foods, yet because my more distant ancestors were adapted to the paleo diet and lifestyle, the residual latent genetics enabled me to become both accustomed to and adapted to a completely different lifestyle from what I lived my entire lifetime previous, in an astonishingly short time frame.
As for colostrum, being a breast fed baby, I must of received colostrum as a first food, and although cow colostrum isn't Identical to breast milk it may be something that one could become accustomed to.... given there is a mammalian prerequisite of evolutionary adaptation. The prebiotic nutrients and immune stimulation proteins in pure colostrum, without the large amounts of milk sugar and post colostrum proteins and fats, may indeed be beneficial in some way even in people who cannot tolerate other forms of dairy. Taking four teaspoons of a pure quality low temp dried colostrum powder a day may not exactly paleo, but so far it seems to be doing me just fine, and I have had none of the negative reactions which I get from raw whole milk.
This will take some more time to see if my experiment with colostrum will prove of long term benefit to me personally, I felt fine without it, and may just be falling under the surthrivalist propaganda that colostrum could help me reach the next level of vitality. I wouldn't recommend it as being paleo, and people who have issues with dairy should use their own judgment, but for people who are already gung-ho pro dairy, it may be something they would like to try.
Moderation is key and 4 tablespoons a day seems like a reasonable experimental dose, and if ever I feel like there is an issue with it I will stop its use and post a report here.
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Moderation is key and 4 tablespoons a day seems like a reasonable experimental dose, and if ever I feel like there is an issue with it I will stop its use and post a report here.
Yes, but "cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response."! :)
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I don't understand why people on an already good, nutrient rich diet would absolutely want to add a new component that's potentially harmful, and brings nothing good to their current state of health.
Guess they miss momma's milk ;)
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Iguana I understand you stance and the ideology you base your reasoning upon, and will not deny the legitimacy of your concerns, But you must also realize that I am a highly in intuitive being and that have honed my own instinctive nutritional approach over the last few years. Something is telling me to give this a try, and although I am not denying there may be some delayed negative reaction, its not likely to be anything that I wont be able to recognize and correct in due time with due diligence.... AS I have had to do countless other times with countless other foods on my own path to health and vitality.
I don't understand why people on an already good, nutrient rich diet would absolutely want to add a new component that's potentially harmful, and brings nothing good to their current state of health.
Guess they miss momma's milk ;)
Its true I miss my nursing days, the mother of my children use to let me nurse and relieve her of her excess supply, but its been a while since I have been able to get some raw human milk.
It is unknown whether or not colostrum has anything to offer me as far as health and vitality. My primary reasoning may be egoist and a little irrational, but I think that colostrum may be able to help me build a little muscle mass and help me recover from long hard days of working and sweating under the sun. I have a hunch that it could be used responsibly as a mild androgenic steroid and workout recovery aid like supplement that is much safer and more paleo friendly than all those highly processed artificial weight gain formulas on the market.
I have consumed a 6.5 ounce canister over about a ten day period, and have a kilo on the way and will continue the experiment so long as I feel as well and strong as I do today, after working 12 hours building a stone path in my garden.
This next few weeks I am going to complete my greenhouse/ raised bed project, and build a sun room, on top of working part time as a handy man and keeping a house hold with two women and five children.... I need every advantage I can get in order to maintain myself and thrive under the circumstances and responsibilities I have taken on and if colostrum can provide a slight edge in the game of surthrival then I am willing to give it a try.
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It's gonna be interesting to hear about your experiment as it develops, sabertooth.
I would just be worried about it being dried, which would make it lose some nutrients. Any chance you can find raw fresh colostrum instead?
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So I found a source of organic, un-homogenized, full-fat raw grass-fed milk (or at least that's what the seller claims it is). I don't know what the fat content is, but the seller said nothing has been extracted from it or added to it. Do you know what the fat content for milk straight off the cow would be? I know it would depend on cow breed, but is there an estimate? I've heard numbers anywhere from 3.6 to 4.8%
As promised, and in line with my overfeeding experiments, I'm going to attempt to drink 5 liters (1.25 gallons) in one day, along with eating 1.1kg (2.5lb) of organic raw chicken wings from which I eat the meat, skin, cartilage, marrow and some of the softer parts of the bones. I'll post tomorrow to report the immediate results. I'll probably try more milk again on saturday, and maybe start my first experiments with producing some raw cheese (suggestions are welcomed).
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I'm about to finish the first liter (1 quart), and something I can already report is a weird taste in the back of my mouth/throat. It feels like sour milk in there, or cheese, or something. But the milk is fresh. I'm sure it's the natural milk bacteria. In a way I feel like I've never experienced this before, but in another way it feels like I have. Very weird feeling. Maybe a throwback to infancy and breastfeeding which would be the only time when I would have gotten raw milk. It doesn't feel like something is wrong.
Then again, it could be anything. It's been ages since I've had plain milk (pasteurized, non-organic), especially in such large quantities over such a short period of time, I don't think I ever have.
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Do you know what the fat content for milk straight off the cow would be? I know it would depend on cow breed, but is there an estimate? I've heard numbers anywhere from 3.6 to 4.8%
You can measure the fat in the milk you got. First, weigh all the milk. Then let it separate and weigh the fat that rises to the top. Your estimate is fairly good, but it does vary by season and by breed.
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That's very interesting eveheart. I will try that.
Anyways, on wednesday I drank the first 2 liters (2 quarts) of milk very fast, and it gave me very intense intestinal growling and diarrhea. I think it was mostly the whey coming out along with something that made some bubbles, stored detergents maybe? I then had the chicken wings, and my digestive system calmed down. A few hours after that I drank another liter more slowly, and had only minor intestinal growling. Then I went to bed as it was night time already, so I couldn't finish the 5 liters.
On thursday (yesterday) I drank the other 2 liters more slowly, and along with some hazel nuts, pecan nuts, sunflower seeds, a few eggs and some honey. I didn't have much problems. At one point it looked like the curds came out, since the whey already had. It was weird to say the least. Later on thursday I had some fruit, and then an all raw tomato-avocado-corn salad which had plenty of hot peppers, garlic, onion and horseradish.
I can't say that I've had any major benefits or detriments from the experiment. I feel mostly the same as other days, except I'm somewhat bloated. (undigested lactose or something?)
I will be trying more dairy experiments soon. I'm getting the tools needed to be able to extract cream from the milk, and to make cheese of various kinds. And I know how to make butter from cream. I probably won't report on the details as much but I'll give the general results as time goes by. I've only been doing this raw diet for 3.5 months, and I was very sick before starting, so I can't say for certain what things are beneficial and which are detrimental at this point.
By the way, on the general theme of the thread, I heard somewhere yesterday that humans are the only species which produces lactase as adults. Is this true? And if so, do you think that means we're supposed (evolved) to be consuming dairy? Or just that we've becomed slightly adapted to it through many generations of consuming it, and/or through a lifetime of consuming it?
I know that you can feed raw milk to other mammals such as cats and they do fine with it, so maybe they also produce lactase if you feed them milk as adults? I've even heard about people feeding dairy to chickens.
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Only some humans continue to produce lactase into adulthood, and the ability to do so also declines with increasing age.
There is also the issue of casein in raw milk as well.
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Well it's been 7 months since I started consuming dairy, and although I had a 2 or 3 month period where I couldn't get much, for the past month or so, as well as for the first 3-4 months or so, I've been having very large amounts.
I can report that so far, it seems that my body responds very well to it.
I just had a minor problem with a particular batch of raw milk that had been frozen... If I drank it straight up, it made me very bloated. However, if that same milk was made into kefir or cheese (or kefir cheese), it didn't. It seems like the freezing process made the lactose less digestible, or something. And then fermenting it got rid of the problem either by eliminating most of the lactose (as kefir does), or perhaps by allowing the lactose to become digestible again, I don't know. I haven't tried the whey leftover from the cheese made from the frozen batch. Maybe I'll do that and see if that also makes me bloated. Or maybe not.
After I made sure to get only fresh milk that was never frozen, by the next batch, I had no problems even if drinking very large quantities of it without any prior fermentation.
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Is heroin paleo? -v Sorry, I am bored.
Seriously though...Is there a poorman version of the paleo diet? My health is completely wrecked at this point it seems not even Jesus can save me (I have tried him too).
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Is heroin paleo? -v Sorry, I am bored.
Seriously though...Is there a poorman version of the paleo diet? My health is completely wrecked at this point it seems not even Jesus can save me (I have tried him too).
I'm sorry you're having health issues. Getting a whole or half deer carcass from a hunter, or hunting your own, can be a cheap way to eat.
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Sorry if this is off-topic. I was hospitalized recently for rapid heartbeat (felt like I was having a stroke or something). At this point I can barely talk or walk normally but doctors tell me I'm fine.
I'm wondering if I have Multiple Scelorosis or somekind of autoimmune disease. Sigh...
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Brad, you might try only-water fasting for 3 days to rule out food sensitivities while you get out of any moldy living quarters for a bit. That vague stuff drives doctors crazy because they don't like to deal with the causes of inflammation. If something is triggering a reaction, you'll very possibly feel fantastic after 3 days on water and clean surroundings.
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Had you eaten any new foods in the 24 hours before this happened? Had you made any majorish changes to your diet in the weeks before this happened?
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Don't feed the troll.
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He's not trolling. Check his post history.
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Eveheart: Fasting would probably be good for me. My self-control isn't that great but I will see how it goes.
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Don't feed the troll.
I find that highly offensive dear sir. Maybe I will take a fast from the forum for about a week. Troll out.
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Check his post history.
I did.
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I did.
lol. Internetz is serious.
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Eveheart: Fasting would probably be good for me. My self-control isn't that great but I will see how it goes.
This is a quick fast to zero in on food sensitivities that might be causing your ill feelings. If you feel great during a short fast, start looking for safe vs. irritating foods. If you have a symptom you can zero in on, such as joint aches, hives, or excess mucus, you can use this as a test for offending foods. Also, food sensitivities might point to leaky gut syndrome. I do my own research; by now, I've read so much that I can't even begin to recommend a reading list, but if you pick a symptom and start reading, you'll probably find some useful bits among the mainstream drivel and the quackery.
I have a cooperative doctor. She's not at all helpful in a direct way, but she sees that my "experiments" are improving my health, so I use her for blood tests and stuff like that.
I have several auto-immune diseases that are not actually healed, but I can say that careful diet has me free from pain, brain fog, and flare-ups. I am able to work full-time, be an active grandmother, and maintain strength and capacity with a daily gym routine that most women my age can't do. I think that, at your age, you can probably get great results. It sucks trying to get through the day when you have pain or no energy.
The holidays are coming... make sure you ask for gift cards at your local grassfed butcher or fish market! Feeling better is worth everything.
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I can read there there is a definite controversy going on here with regards to dairy. I tend to rely on the concepts that AV has presented. He used raw dairy foods to help folks heal from any number of health issues (and I witnessed a number of situations over the years). But he also indicated that when one is quite healthy, dairy really isn't helpful/harmful. One thing not mentioned here is the amazing changes in a baby's gut bacteria after having mother's milk. It is the "correct" milk and mix of bacteria suitable for the being that is the baby. After the gut is well-seeded with the bacteria (in addition to those from the birth itself), the baby is normally weaned and goes after more solid and serious growth food. I guess I have to accept clarified or raw butter as one, perhaps, non-paleo component (not really sure when butter started being made, but surely not before the agricultural revolution). Still, AV was a strong proponent of the use of dairy to turn bad health into good. Heck, my avocado isn't Paleo, but it has strong healing qualities. But one should clarify - only raw milk could be considered as being potentially Paleo.
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Avocados are paleo. Dairy is not. I do use some grassfed butter sometimes, but dairy is too allergenic for most adults, other than maybe butter. That's not dogma, it's fact.
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(not really sure when butter started being made, but surely not before the agricultural revolution).
only raw milk could be considered as being potentially Paleo.
What are you basing this conclusion on? Do you know how butter is made? All you need to make butter is milk, two containers and any kind of utensil that acts like a spoon.
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Humans started eating dairy very early on, perhaps early in their transition from hunter-gatherers to slightly more settled pastoralist life, but still definitely pre-agricultural. The Mongols and Kazakhs still "hunt" wild mares for their milk - they'd rope them, milk them and release them again. Some humans might be descended from stocks who didn't drink milk but that's no reason for paleo practitioners to avoid milk, in my view.
Check this video on youtube: gKjz2ae3mYU
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Humans started eating dairy very early on, perhaps early in their transition from hunter-gatherers to slightly more settled pastoralist life, but still definitely pre-agricultural. The Mongols and Kazakhs still "hunt" wild mares for their milk - they'd rope them, milk them and release them again. Some humans might be descended from stocks who didn't drink milk but that's no reason for paleo practitioners to avoid milk, in my view.
Check this video on youtube: gKjz2ae3mYU
I don't care about people's views. We have seen many times how allergenic raw dairy is, a lot of anecdotal data. Fact.
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Humans started eating dairy very early on, perhaps early in their transition from hunter-gatherers to slightly more settled pastoralist life, but still definitely pre-agricultural. The Mongols and Kazakhs still "hunt" wild mares for their milk - they'd rope them, milk them and release them again. Some humans might be descended from stocks who didn't drink milk but that's no reason for paleo practitioners to avoid milk, in my view.
Check this video on youtube: gKjz2ae3mYU
The pro-dairy ethnic argument is easily debunked. THE biggest complaint among RVAF diet newbies is an allergy towards raw dairy. This applies even to a lot of people with Northern European ancestry, myself included, despite the claim that Northern Europeans are least affected by such an allergy. Simply put, all humans start losing their ability to digest lactose(and probably casein) as they get older, albeit at different rates, so it is unwise to consume it unless one is 100% sure it is not affecting one.
Some allergenic foods can be very insidious for some people, in that there might be no overt immediate negative symptoms that occur when they consume it, but which are still harmful and block any improvement in health.
The length of time argument re raw dairy is also easily proven bogus. Pandas have been eating bamboo for 5 million years or so and are still almost wholly adapted to eating raw meat. We humans have been consuming raw dairy for anywhere from only 100 to 7000 to max. 20,000 years ago, depending on past ethnic groups and lifestyles. We humans have been eating cooked foods for 300,000 years (some even claim 1.2 million!) and have still not adapted to cooked foods, given plentiful evidence of harm caused by advanced glycation end products and similiar cooked-food toxins.
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The length of time argument re raw dairy is also easily proven bogus. Pandas have been eating bamboo for 5 million years or so and are still almost wholly adapted to eating raw meat. We humans have been consuming raw dairy for anywhere from only 100 to 7000 to max. 20,000 years ago, depending on past ethnic groups and lifestyles.
Wrong. Humans, along with all mammals and previously the mammaliaformes have been consuming dairy for around 235 million years. Give a cat raw milk and it will do well on it. And humans are particularly adapted among the mammals to consuming dairy as adults.
We humans have been eating cooked foods for 300,000 years (some even claim 1.2 million!) and have still not adapted to cooked foods, given plentiful evidence of harm caused by advanced glycation end products and similiar cooked-food toxins.
There is little evidence for this. Some believe humans did not even start building fires until 35k years ago, let alone cooking anything (fire was first and foremost used for heat, scaring away dangerous animals, and for light). And if and when they did start cooking things, it would mostly be grains, legumes and tubers, not meat. The only animal product that they might have cooked at the beginning would be bones, to make bone broth and extract the marrow without having to break open the bones. But only the women with no men around would do that, and only for very thick bones from large animals. Men would just pick up a rock and break open the bones to get to the marrow inside (or break the skull to get the brain).
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TylerDurden's teeth got terrifyingly loose while eating a lot of raw dairy. Mine were also worryingly loose back when I consumed tremendous amounts of raw goat milk. At the time I wasn't sure of the cause, but now I'm pretty certain. Anecdotal data wins, because people should avoid foods that cause these types of problems.
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Wrong. Humans, along with all mammals and previously the mammaliaformes have been consuming dairy for around 235 million years.
You're aware that we are discussing the consumption of milk 1) from other species, 2) after infancy?
Give a cat raw milk and it will do well on it. And humans are particularly adapted among the mammals to consuming dairy as adults.
Some, and those who do probably don't thrive on it. Hip fracture, which is linked to osteoporosis, has been proliferous in the western world, and in major Asian cities since the introduction of milk.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/ (http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/)
again: "A major study concluded that in a Japan population aged 35 years or older the crude incidence of hip fracture was 244.8 per 100,000 person years from 2004 to 2006, and the gender-specific incidence was 99.6 per 100,000 person years for men and 368 per 100,000 person years for women [12]. When data was analysed and compared with that from 30 years ago it was also concluded that there is an increasing incidence of hip fracture in Japanese populations."
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/tab1/ (http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2010/757102/tab1/)
One thing most noticeable on this chart is how Hong-Kong, China's most westenized city, has more than double the cases of hip fracture than Beijing.
And if and when they did start cooking things, it would mostly be grains, legumes and tubers, not meat. The only animal product that they might have cooked at the beginning would be bones, to make bone broth and extract the marrow without having to break open the bones. But only the women with no men around would do that, and only for very thick bones from large animals. Men would just pick up a rock and break open the bones to get to the marrow inside (or break the skull to get the brain).
I never read they avoided cooking meat in the early days? Where did you read that?
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People need to realize that milk is just addictive, and that it's neither necessary, nor is it truly beneficial. It's packed with opioids, just like wheat: Only it can be drank raw, and to this day it still enjoys such a glamorous aura (It's white and sweet, and it reminds people of the good old days when they had nothing to worry about, tight against their mother's breasts).
If you want to build stronger bones, getting plenty of vitamin D is more important than getting a lot of calcium, which you already do if you eat a varied diet. I think the calcium/magnesium ratio also plays an important part in this regard.
http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vitamin-D-appears-more-important-than-high-calcium-for-bones (http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vitamin-D-appears-more-important-than-high-calcium-for-bones)
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TylerDurden's teeth got terrifyingly loose while eating a lot of raw dairy. Mine were also worryingly loose back when I consumed tremendous amounts of raw goat milk. At the time I wasn't sure of the cause, but now I'm pretty certain. Anecdotal data wins, because people should avoid foods that cause these types of problems.
Well my teeth were loose when I was eating cooked, and became stronger on raw meat, and even stronger still with the addition of plenty of raw dairy. Aajonus's teeth were extremely loose and healed primarily on raw milk.
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Some, and those who do probably don't thrive on it. Hip fracture, which is linked to osteoporosis, has been proliferous in the western world, and in major Asian cities since the introduction of milk.
That's pasteurized milk. Please, we've been over this.
I never read they avoided cooking meat in the early days? Where did you read that?
There is no reason to cook meat, as meat is perfectly edible raw, and becomes toxic when cooked. It's perfectly digestible when raw and becomes significantly less digestible when cooked. There is reason to cook grains, legumes and tubers, as they either turn from barely edible into edible, or from inedible to edible, and digestion can increase significantly when cooking them, although they do become toxic at the same time.
People need to realize that milk is just addictive, and that it's neither necessary, nor is it truly beneficial.
Lots of people improve their health significantly when adding raw dairy. And most of the world became increasingly less healthy after abandoning raw dairy, when States made mass scale pasteurization of milk mandatory, and made raw milk illegal or close to illegal.
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http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm (http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm)
The above article focuses on the negative effects of calcium in all dairy, whether raw or pasteurised.JK's points re hip fractures and dairy still holds therefore as the same problem would happen with raw dairy as well given the above article.
The other issue with raw dairy is that it comes (mainly) from cows and is genetically designed to benefit only calves therefore. Now if we all had access to lots and lots of raw human milk ;) ;D and most of us reduced or stopped its consumption as we reached past adulthood, then that would be fine,
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http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm (http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm)
The above article focuses on the negative effects of calcium in all dairy, whether raw or pasteurised.JK's points re hip fractures and dairy still holds therefore as the same problem would happen with raw dairy as well given the above article.
You already linked me to that and as I told you, he doesn't even mention raw dairy. In any case, focusing on calcium as a problem in all milk, when the problem is really from pasteurized milk, is another intellectualism that has not proven to be true in reality.
The other issue with raw dairy is that it comes (mainly) from cows and is genetically designed to benefit only calves therefore.
That's not true. First, milk of any mammal will nourish any mammal, and even non mammals also. Secondly, we have been drinking cows milk for thousands of years. Third, cows (and sheep and goats) have been selectively bred for higher quality milk, that is, milk that is more nourishing to us humans, for thousands of generations.
Pottenger's cats thrived on raw milk. How much exposure do you think cats had to cows milk compared to humans? How much is cows milk designed / selected to nourish cats?
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You already linked me to that and as I told you, he doesn't even mention raw dairy. In any case, focusing on calcium as a problem in all milk, when the problem is really from pasteurized milk, is another intellectualism that has not proven to be true in reality.
This is just stupid, now. The fact is that Wai was referring to ALL dairy, whether raw or pasteurised. He was focusing on the harmful effects of excess calcium from milk. Excess calcium exists in both raw and pasteurised milk. *sigh* The calcium/magnesium ratio, which is related to this, is a scientific fact:-
http://deliciousliving.com/blog/time-ditch-21-calcium-magnesium-ratio (http://deliciousliving.com/blog/time-ditch-21-calcium-magnesium-ratio)
That's not true. First, milk of any mammal will nourish any mammal, and even non mammals also. Secondly, we have been drinking cows milk for thousands of years. Third, cows (and sheep and goats) have been selectively bred for higher quality milk, that is, milk that is more nourishing to us humans, for thousands of generations.
A few thousands of years is not enough(7500-11,000 years ago) for full adaptation. Note how even those few humans who have lactase adaptation start losing their adaptation as they enter adulthood:-
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471 (http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471)
As I have pointed out we have not adapted to cooked foods despite eating them for 300,000 years. So 7500 years is certainly not enough for full adaptation.
The milk of any mammal claim is just wrong. For example, one of the reasons why the notion of feral children is disputed to a large extent is because it has been shown that human infants die if they consume wolf milk. Cows' milk, while not as toxic, still has way too much casein in it and is a food full of hormones, designed to make a calf reach adult size within 2 years. Human milk, by contrast, is designed to sustain a much larger brain compared to the body, and so on and on.
Pottenger's cats thrived on raw milk. How much exposure do you think cats had to cows milk compared to humans? How much is cows milk designed / selected to nourish cats?
I do not view the Pottenger experiment as any good. Plus, it did not even bother to check if cats fed on raw (grassfed/wild)meat but no raw dairy were healthier than the other cats. Quite obviously, cats would do best on a diet consisting of foods their wild counterparts ate for millions of years.
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For example, one of the reasons why the notion of feral children is disputed to a large extent is because it has been shown that human infants die if they consume wolf milk.
I'm going off-topic here, but the realistic interpretation to Romulus and Remus's myth is that they where actually taken care of by a prostitute, and not a wolf as previously believed, since the latin lupa both describes a wolf and a prostitute. :)
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Milk consumption has had the exact opposite effect on my teeth that Tyler Durden describes. I have tooth pain unless I drink milk regularly. My teeth were loose and in chronic pain until I started consuming it in a much higher volume than I had previously, at least 5 gallons a week.
I recommend dairy as a food for no other reason than it is economical and a good way to restore health in people with little money or means or squeamish about raw meat and especially organs.
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RogueFarmer, there definitely are some people who have experiences like yours. Many don't, however, and raw dairy is very tempting and addictive.
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I'm going off-topic here, but the realistic interpretation to Romulus and Remus's myth is that they where actually taken care of by a prostitute, and not a wolf as previously believed, since the latin lupa both describes a wolf and a prostitute. :)
Interesting, I never heard of that before.
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As I have pointed out we have not adapted to cooked foods despite eating them for 300,000 years.
And as I pointed out, that is highly unlikely to be the case, and even if it was, it's highly unlikely that they would've been cooking a lot of foods a lot of the time. Also, cooking is a much more drastic change to adapt to than simply keeping the ability to thrive on milk as adults as they did as children. Which I don't even think is a thing, as I mentioned, both humans and other animals thrive on raw milk while fully developed.
The milk of any mammal claim is just wrong. For example, one of the reasons why the notion of feral children is disputed to a large extent is because it has been shown that human infants die if they consume wolf milk.
Shown by who? They also claim to have shown that raw meat causes horrible diseases and parasites and can lead to death.
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And as I pointed out, that is highly unlikely to be the case, and even if it was, it's highly unlikely that they would've been cooking a lot of foods a lot of the time. Also, cooking is a much more drastic change to adapt to than simply keeping the ability to thrive on milk as adults as they did as children. Which I don't even think is a thing, as I mentioned, both humans and other animals thrive on raw milk while fully developed.
Nonsense for several obvious reasons. For one thing, humans are the only mammals who regularly consume dairy, raw or otherwise, past infancy.Wild animals don't, and so are not adapted to it. Also, only humans retain the ability to digest lactose in adulthood, and then only a few humans, with all those relevant humans anyway gradually losing their ability to digest lactose as they get ever older.
As to whether humans have been eating their foods cooked or not in pre-Neolithic times, that is irrelevant, there is still the fact that humans still have not adapted to cooked foods despite the 100s of thousands of years involved.
Shown by who? They also claim to have shown that raw meat causes horrible diseases and parasites and can lead to death.
Wolves' milk contains too much casein for human infants to absorb, apparently. Science is poor as regards food-poisoning/parasite claims, but is excellent on the dangers of cooking such as heat-created toxins causing cancer etc.
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Another key point is that mothers routinely change their milk content to suit their infants, depending on a host of circumstances. So just drinking milk from a cup, as opposed to the usual instance of infants sucking a nipple/teat, is definitely not as useful or healthy.
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Another key point is that mothers routinely change their milk content to suit their infants, depending on a host of circumstances. So just drinking milk from a cup, as opposed to the usual instance of infants sucking a nipple/teat, is definitely not as useful or healthy.
A good point.
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Milk consumption has had the exact opposite effect on my teeth that Tyler Durden describes. I have tooth pain unless I drink milk regularly. My teeth were loose and in chronic pain until I started consuming it in a much higher volume than I had previously, at least 5 gallons a week.
I recommend dairy as a food for no other reason than it is economical and a good way to restore health in people with little money or means or squeamish about raw meat and especially organs.
When I read this, I cant not stop thinking about that it is probably the environment that plays a big role here....
why you react so differently with Tyler
What can be good for one, might be bad for another depending on the environment you are surrounded with..... it has become clear to me lately
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When I read this, I cant not stop thinking about that it is probably the environment that plays a big role here....
why you react so differently with Tyler
What can be good for one, might be bad for another depending on the environment you are surrounded with..... it has become clear to me lately
Not environment, genetics.
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I disagree a bit.
I think.... both ;)
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Genetic expression and environmental expression are one in the same.
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I disagree a bit.
I think.... both ;)
I'd say 80% genetics, 20% environment, on the dairy issue. That might change depending on how you define gut microbes, though.
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Milk consumption has had the exact opposite effect on my teeth that Tyler Durden describes. I have tooth pain unless I drink milk regularly. My teeth were loose and in chronic pain until I started consuming it in a much higher volume than I had previously, at least 5 gallons a week.
I recommend dairy as a food for no other reason than it is economical and a good way to restore health in people with little money or means or squeamish about raw meat and especially organs.
RogueFarmer, do you have tooth pain shortly after you stop drinking milk? like a day, a week, a month without milk? Depending on this, it could mean you have a strong milk tolerance from drinking it often, which allows you to not feel too much -or no- immediate negative effects from drinking it. And so your tooth pain could be a sort of detox reaction from quitting dairy. Just speculating.
Have you tried getting off the milk for some time, and eating paleo foods that are rarely/never on the menu instead? Maybe you won't need to depend on milk anymore to regulate your teeth pain. Maybe the pain will leave for good.
Perhaps non-human milk is a sort of lower quality substitute to certain foods that are missing in some primal dieter's menu.
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If you primal dieters want to continue drinking raw milk and dairy, you should really consider checking how the farmer you're getting the milk from treats its cows. It must be possible to get milk without harming the animal too much; unfortunately this video shows most of the time milk industry is quite the cruel business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI)
(Just ignore the fact she's vegan)
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none of that sob story applies to raw dairy farmers.
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in regards to loose teeth. Iv been on half gallon a day for 4 years. My dentist is shocked by how solid my teeth are in my mouth. Also sats i have some of the healthiest gums hes ever seen.
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none of that sob story applies to raw dairy farmers.
Please provide evidence or share personal experience meeting raw dairy farmers to back up your claim. Why would raw dairy farmers farm differently?
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Amish farmers cant even use the technology to inflict the torture you see in this video. Most of the raw dairy producers in this country are amish.
This just isnt happening on the small raw dairy farms. THis is industrial farming.
Go read a book on organic farming. None of that crap is in the instructions.
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Most of the raw dairy producers in this country are amish....
What do you mean by "most" and "in this country"? I live in it, too, and I visit all sorts of farms and ranches, and I've never seen an Amish-owned dairy farm.
Go read a book on organic farming. None of that crap is in the instructions.
The many organic ranches and farms in this area are as mechanized as they can afford to be. Even back when I was growing up in the 1950s, when all diary was locally produced, the cow-side of dairy farming was highly mechanized, (however, the processing side still involved a lot of carrying buckets of milk around and pouring it by hand into the separator and pasteurizer).
Have you ever tried going without raw dairy? Perhaps your daily intake of milk is causing your troll-like thoughts and posts. I'd consider that a significant problem that might be helped with a change in diet, particularly a change that lowers inflammation, which can trigger irritating behavior. One clue that diet is the culprit may be that you have reported ongoing "detox" symptoms. What can be left to detox if your intake is not irritating you? After all, even in the most pristine ancestral scene, the quantity of milk that you drink on a year-round basis would be unheard of. Also, your choice of cow's milk over smaller animal varieties is a totally neolithic concept. It would be a challenge at first, but I'm sure there's a mellow-er you somewhere, waiting to be liberated.
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Almost all the farmers iv gotten my milk from have been amish. All the non amish iv used have not used any of the mechanical means described in the video if any, all milking was always done by hand.
I have been off raw dairy many times when I wasnt able to get access to it.
Speaking thoughts that one genuinely believes in does not fall into the category of trolling. Trolling involves argument whos purpose is to cause conflict.
What can be left to detox? Are you even serious? I live in enw york city. The chemtrails here are almost daily and extremely thick. Car pollution is massive. Im surrounded by emf waves everywhere I go. I carry a cellphone everywhere I go and work on a laptop very close to my body. I have been vaccinated and eaten much poisonous food throughout my life.
If you think 5 years of any diet will clean all the toxins out of ones body you are mistaken, we have all been heavily poisoned.
It took 4 generations of putting pottengers cats on a good diet to recover to normal health. THat was just cooked food toxicity. Human toxicity is far worse than just cooked food.
I am in possession of many case studies involving toxins being pushed out through the skin that were ingested DECADES prior.
ayou have no idea how mellow I am. People who know me in real life say that I have an extremely calm disposition. I havent been in a fight in 4 years, before going primal i would get into several physical altercations per year. Now people can get in my face and try to provoke me all they want but I neither yell nor fight them, and trust me this happens a lot, I live in NYC after all and am not a yuppie, I hang out in the streets a lot and interact with the dregs of society where violence is the norm more than id like, some of the places I go violence is common people try to get me involved but it simply doesnt work in situations where I would have definitely escaleted to violence in my past life.
DOnt confuse my calm disposition with lack of energy either, I never work out because I find it boring yet my body is in a state in which people are shocked to hear i never work out to point of being accused of lying. Keep in mind this is not genetic since I looked like a concentration camp victim in my sick days, including my raw paleo days before raw milk when I struggled to put on weight. Since I am in financial difficulties My calorie intake is only about 1600 a day yet I maintain my weight easily, I would be much stronger if i could afford more food and at 6'2" i should be eating double. When I am forced to do strenuous physical activity it is no problem for me despite my lack of exercise. Yesterday i sprinted for 4 blocks to catch a bus home, i kept up with the bus and caught it and wasnt even tired after.
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Have you ever tried going without raw dairy? Perhaps your daily intake of milk is causing your troll-like thoughts and posts.
Or maybe your lack of dairy is causing your passive aggression, as JeuneKoq who has gone down to the point of citing vegan propaganda as proof that there's something wrong with our milk.
There's similar vegan propaganda out there trying to discourage people from eating all meats and eggs also, and even honey. Likewise for using leather or wool items, fur coats, feather pillows, etc.
First, not all dairy, meat and eggs are produced like that. Secondly, if that's what it takes to mass produce those for the masses, then that's what it takes. Animals have no moral status and our only concerns in breeding them should be to maximize product quality and minimize cost. Foods produced in ways like that shown in the video are typically cheap and low quality.
I wonder if radical vegans like these ever wonder about the conventional production of their beloved plant foods, and how people have to basically wear radiation suits when they spray them with toxic chemicals, or have resorted to carpet-bombing chemicals from planes, and anyone who happens to live nearby is permanently poisoned.
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I notice on here its the big fruit eaters are that are most passive aggressive. Sometimes overtly aggressive.
Sometimes to the point of being like my hateful shadow, literally following every post I make to say Im wrong while tweaking out on sugar.
THis behaviour is very common in vegetarians and vegans as well. Raw vegans more than anybody.
Low carbers are usually the most relaxed, whether raw or not.
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I notice on here its the big fruit eaters are that are most passive aggressive. Sometimes overtly aggressive.
Sometimes to the point of being like my hateful shadow, literally following every post I make to say Im wrong while tweaking out on sugar.
THis behaviour is very common in vegetarians and vegans as well. Raw vegans more than anybody.
Low carbers are usually the most relaxed, whether raw or not.
Eve eats very little fruit. I eat a lot. We are the ones most likely to respond to you. How does that fit your theory?
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eve isnt agressive at all. You are.
Her tone is of gentle suggestion. Sabertooth also disagrees with me sometimes but he is never aggressive.
The other aggressive person is iguana who also eats tons of fruit. To be fair goodsamaritan is not aggressive, i dont know how much fruit he eats but I think its a fair amount. It might because he doesnt eat as much fruit as you guys or because hes philipino and genetically able to handle more fruit whereas northern europeans like us can not. It could also be due to a personailty characteristic of a very high level of open mindedness that drives him to revel in diversity within the raw animal food diet spectrum and steering away from saying any one way is best.
Who are the most unquestionably aggressive and tweaky hyper people in the world of different diets? Raw vegans, with fruitarians being absolutely batshit insane. Compare that to the low carb people, always very calm and collected. Looking at youtube videos will confirm this very easily.
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Sure, eating low-carb is very calming. That doesn't mean it's much more workable in the long-term. Many have gotten quite sick trying to be low-carb or zero-carb beyond the point of diminishing returns. And I'm not sure I care if you find me aggressive. In person I'm far more gentle. Nutrition just happens to be a hot button topic for me. I get worked up about it. Is that a problem for you?
Dude, most people just don't respond to you because you yourself are too aggressive and ignorant. You act like an alpha around here, but your knowledge level is nowhere near that of any of the mods or most longtime members. I am the only reason you weren't banned years ago. That's what makes your attitude toward me especially funny. LOL
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But please, keep quoting Aajonus as if he was God himself. It discredits the stupid things he said in exactly the way they need to be discredited.
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Not workable in the long term? Tell that to the Eskimos, Masai, Nenets, Neurs, and countless others. Lowest carb always had the lowest levels of cavities in weston prices research as well by the way.
Il be coming out with a presentation soon full of tons of original research. Youll see that Iv discovered plenty of stuff Aajonus hasnt on my own.
Funny how you hate Aajonus, hes healed more people on this diet than anyone else, mostly terminally ill patients. Who else has thousands of testimonials from the people they cured, and hundreds more letter testimonials he didnt even get to open before he died.
I know a guy who had lou gherigs disease disease, it kills 98% of people within 3-5 years everyone else is totally paralyzed. Hes completely health now, even had a kid. Show me any other diet thats ever cured lou gherigs disease, and I mean CURED not trudging on for another 15 years in a wheel chair unable to talk. He says he fully owes his healing to aajonus, erhaps il post his full story in the testimonial section if he says its ok.
I know you feel intense hatred for him for some reason but nobody else had a track record even close to his. Neuroscientist Dr. Elnora Van Winkle confirmed that he had a 96% cancer cure rate, who else can show those numbers? And she was instincto not primal!
Most importantly I would have no problem sticking to strict "paleo" dogma, however as long as people are promoting things such as chemical supplements, cooked teas, and magic electronic gizmos I find it completely unfair that i get attacked because I think dairy and vegetable juice are healthy, things which are far closer to raw paleo than supplements tea or gizmos. Furthermore I provide citations for my claims probably more than anyone else here. So i really dont see the problem.
Getting worked up is only a problem when rudeness,name calling, and threats come into play. What I say is far closer to paleo than many things people say here with impunity and I find it inappropriate that I am being singled due to hatred for the person who saved my life.
Just wait a week or so, youll see plenty of research Iv done myself, not from aajonus that backs up much of what im saying, maybe you can save your personal insults for the thread about that once it happens rather than turning this forum into a boxing ring.
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Damn, you're good at discrediting yourself.
And those "low-carb" societies aren't all that low-carb, except for the Inuit, who have larger livers to handle all that protein and lack of carbs. Or did you not know that? LOL
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I'm looking forward to your research svrn!
I also think here are some people trying to discredit aajonus without reason.
I don't think no one of members here that claim to be so knowledgeable are symptom free on their lives. Just reading their posts reveals that they are still healing. And they deny it.
Personally.. After so many DETOX from doing lots of dairy and all this primal diet i'm every week more confident and convinced that i'm actually healing. I feel better and better as time is going on. I do tnx to have raw dairy on the healing.
I love dairy. Calming. Relaxing. Makes me happy and to be happy with other people. When i compare that to when i ate fruit eggs and meats (no dairy) i feel more sociable now. I don't hate so much anymore.
The confusing subject i think is the 'symptom' thing. Is having a 'disease', a good or a bad thing? Cause people judges milk from that point of view mostly. Cause eating dairy cause 'symptoms' , so dairy is bad.
You can see it as your body being sick by the food itself, or the food 'pushing' toxins or low quality tissue (being replaced) on the body.
And the personal view on symptoms and sickness is what makes every one have some foods and don't have anothers.
I personally think and BELIEVE that primal foods (meat eggs dairy honey juices) do 'push' and replace old garbage tissue on my body.
This belief is backed up by an increased state of wellbeing. Never i am feeling worse than before. I can be really wrong. Time will tell. Also i can be 'delaying' the healing. I don't know. I will love to know someone that NEVER gets a symptom or sickness and that have a perfect functioning body.
I'm very grateful to aajonus. Great researcher. Had teach so much. And some subjects it had take so much personal experimentation to understand it.
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My history is well documented on this forum. I spent quite a bit of time following peoples advice on this forum and it helped me a lot wasnt getting me the results I needed. Only when I went primal, through someones suggestion on here, I forget who it was, did I start experiencing intense healing. And that dosnt mean just following the first two books, it involved going deep into the later works to get the advice he discovered later and published in his q&a's dvds and newsletters to figure out how to get past my perceived dairy intolerance.
In regards to the symptom thing. I got it regularly in the beginning too. I pushed through that phase of a period of sickness then afterwards I felt intensely better than I did before I went through that sick period. If you push through it it gets so much better. Now I feel incredible 97% of the year with a detox about once a year, usually the same time in winter. Now I get intense detox symptoms when I eat eggs which I had no problem with before which I will power through when I can take time off to be relatively incapacitated from the eggs I will be consuming.
I feel incredible even though Im not drinking my vegetable juice or coconut cream and am basically eating just beef year round due to my financial situation, when I do the juices 3 times a day and eat a large variety of meats with lots of fish i feel beyond incredible almost to the point of constant euphoria. My diet is far from perfect right now, but when it is perfect primal the feeling is quite intense.And when I say perfect there is so much more to it than the first two books, when you get into the q&a's on the website or the dvds or newsletters you see all of the new information that brings everything to a truly new level.
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Damn, you're good at discrediting yourself.
And those "low-carb" societies aren't all that low-carb, except for the Inuit, who have larger livers to handle all that protein and lack of carbs. Or did you not know that? LOL
i guess you never read nutrition and physical degeneration. Or maybe you a new theory about how weston a price is a fraud weston a price made everything up.
I left out the canadian indians by the way.
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A swing and a miss. I'm the biggest Price fanatic on this forum. It was his book that changed me from veganism to omnivorism. Specifically, the part where he points out the rate of cavities being 13 times higher in the Kikuyu versus the Masai. I compared that with all the teeth problems that raw vegans have on largely fruit diets, and I've been eating raw seafood (and sometimes raw meat) pretty much every day since. That was about 14 years ago.
A swing and a miss, boy, a swing and a miss.
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Please cite the book pointing to where any of the tribes I listed eat anything but zero to minimal plant foods for the vast majority of the year.
Upon double checking my notes. Eskimo have no plant foods except briefly in the year some berries. Canadian forest indians are meat only. The masai warriors called moran are permitted to eat only meat and milk for at least 15 years. The nenets almost eat no plant foods.
ALso I left out the sami tribes who eat no plants most of the year.
who are your examples of people who did terribly on low carb on this forum? Lex? His diet was horrible, he ate nothing but cow muscle meat for years a large portion frozen I believe, a terrible diet. Any tribes that were were cattle herdsmen men always had copious amounts of milk and blood as well, what he did was very unnatural.
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Lex actually does fine, he's our lowest-carb and longest low-carber. Here's the difference between me and you--I know that Lex eats an organ-and-muscle-meat mix, and has for many years. That's a big reason why he's successful. And the fact that you didn't know that is an example of the difference between us.
The anecdotal evidence on this forum is of extremely high value, but you're too busy strutting around telling us how ignorant and stupid we are to actually dig deeply into it and learn it deeply enough to be able to call upon it immediately when needed.
I've read basically every post on this forum for the last 8 years, and I can instantly draw on all that knowledge, because I care about the topic so deeply that it all sticks in my brain.
Also, milk is not at all low-carb.
Also, here's a list of people who did badly on zero or low-carb and had to back off it to whatever degree--
1. Geoff
2. PaleoPhil
3. Yuri
The list goes on, but it's such a common thing that I don't pay attention to it any more. Those are just the most notable examples, which you would be aware of if you had the deep knowledge of the forum posts that I do, boy.
Recognize my superior level of knowledge, and do more shutting up and less strutting. Please. You're just embarrassing yourself.
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Before I left lex said he was in an incredible health crisis and was questioning the idea of a raw diet at all. Im not sure what hes up to now.
Low carb diet without blood or blood and dairy is historically unprecedented and is a large part of why many low carbers fail.
After all the heavy cream I add to my milk and after it goes sour there is very little sugar in it. While it has a lot of carbs when fresh, it has very little lactobaillus in it, i forget what the protein and fat digesting bacteria in it are but it is in the extreme majority. Once the bacteria are done with it becomes very bitter the amount of utilizable fat and protein far outnumber the sugar after that process. Milk is not emant to be drank sweet and fresh, the traditional way all peoples have drank it is unfrigerated and sour, not sweet and cold, it is the wrong way to consume dairy.
Why are you unable to properly read weston prices work if he is such a hero of yours? The tribes I listed according to him eat almost exclusively animals.
You are so superior. Would you like me to stop thinking for myself and bow down to you?
Your getting worked up from all that sugar. Careful or you might pop a blood vessel.
Il stop posting my ideas when other people stop promoting supplements, tea, and gizmos and stop posting anti primal stuff in the primal diet section. I dont think they should be forced to stop posting that stuff but if you think I should stop posting my ideas, shared by many people who have been on a raw animal food diet longer than anyone on the forum, then its fair that other people should stop posting their anti raw ideas with impunity as well. Not that I think they should.
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Recognize my superior level of knowledge, and do more shutting up and less strutting. Please. You're just embarrassing yourself.
:o
I think the one embarrassing himself is you..
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There are several things wrong with dairy that have nothing to do with sugar. The calcium:magnesium ratio is 12:1, while we need 1:2. The proteins are often highly allergenic. Plus there are opioids.
And no, I have no problem with you thinking for yourself. I just don't plan to be gentle with you if you're going to fight me publicly and be so extremely wrong. Contend with me at roughly my level of knowledge, and I'll respect you. Keep treating me like an equal in areas where you are nowhere near my equal, and I will slap you down, again and again, every time. I'll provide as painful and humiliating an experience as you choose.
This is a publicly viewable forum, and I don't want people with good common sense, education, and intelligence to think that you are speaking for us when you say obviously foolish things. I do my imperfect best to protect this place and the ideas we are spreading and discussing. Letting you run rampant would not be the best choice, in my view.
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:o
I think the one embarrassing himself is you..
Two people out of dozens have good experiences with raw dairy, and you want me to bow to you?
Plus you've already admitted that you've had extreme "detoxes" on dairy. Smart people call those "health problems".
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Two people out of dozens have good experiences with raw dairy, and you want me to bow to you?
Plus you've already admitted that you've had extreme "detoxes" on dairy. Smart people call those "health problems".
Oh.. Very subtle way pf saying that i'm stupid.
Two people out of dozens have good experience? And what is good experience? Really.. If you see 'symptoms' as a bad thing.. Then yes. I agree with you. If you think that 'symptoms' are a good thing.. Then i don't.
I don't think coughing some mucus is 'health problem'.
I think it is the opposite.
You are symptom free, dont you? And never ever have any 'health problem'?
Why are the symptoms of 'dairy intoxication' go from one place on the body to other? And after they go from a place, that place feel better than before?
That feels like regeneration to me. 'healing'.
It is confusing mostly because of that. Cause if you see coughing mucus as a bad thing then its a different story. In that case, people doing bad on raw milk would be actually good.
And i'm not having extreme detoxes. I'm having detoxes.never said extremes. Extreme was when i had peritonitis or chicken pox. But never had those things with dairy. Just colds and flu and rashes that last for hours sometimes.
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Why so muh repression towards svrn?
Why you need to talk as if you ARE the forum and as if the forum MUST have some rules about things?
So dairy MUST be bad, and every people that say the opposite is a threat to the forum .?
This is a forum i ln the first place... Every people can share what they think is right. Don't need to be corrected by an 'old all-expert'.
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dude. You are a psychopath.
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dude. You are a psychopath.
Not really. I am very capable of guilt, remorse, empathy, regret, etc.. I don't think you have any idea what psychopathic behavior is. But feel free to jump on the currently-popular bandwagon of accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a psychopath. It would fit fairly well with your tendency to jump on bandwagons, like the Aajonus one.
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Psychopathy (/sa??k?p??i/), also known as sociopathy (/so?si??p??i/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
you are on the biggest bandwagon of all, the germ theory bandwagon. One that the guy who invented it jumped off of long ago.
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Psychopathy (/sa??k?p??i/), also known as sociopathy (/so?si??p??i/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
you are on the biggest bandwagon of all, the germ theory bandwagon.
I'm on no such bandwagon. I simply admit the truth is more complex than either side admits. I am comfortable staying open on the issue and using my common sense to guide my daily life as regards germ exposure. I'm anything BUT a germaphobe, I never wash my produce, and I eat plenty of high fish. Aggghhh. Shut UP about this.
And as regards psychopathy, I was just telling my wife that I feel bad about hurting your feelings, but that you are so aggressive in so many threads that I don't know how else to handle you. Being gentle with you would be far too exhausting, something I'm sure your mother can relate to.
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check the instincto herpes to thread to see that he does in fact subscribe to germ theory.
My feeling are not in any way hurt. i dont have any emotional reaction to letters on a screen to the point yelling and belittling and beating my chest about how superior I am on internet forum through a keyboard like some people.
THis is all quite funny to me actually. Great entertainment although It may be a good idea to stop engaging as I feel it is really bringing things down around here.
Maybe a new rule, for the forum, no insults?
You actually talk to people in real life about arguments you are having on a forum? You really need to calm down and maybe find something else in your life to make you feel fulfilled rather than spewing hatred on the internet.
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I've given this place thousands of hours of my life. Yeah, I'm invested in it. Sue me.
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your a crybaby and a bully. This is probably the only place in where you feel any power in your life and when anyone comes along who has a different opinion than you get mad and just want to bully and insult and beat your chest about how you are the greatest. Your boss at work probably treats you like shit all day, your wife is probably nagging you all the time then you come on here and finally i show up and you have someone to excercise power over because your the big man whos been here for 8 years.
You've insulted and berated me incessantly but I truly feel sorry for you.
This is over. Say what you want, il discuss specific points of evidence with you from now on but nothing else. Throw your little temper tantrums all you want you sad little hyper monkey boy, because this is the last bit of energy your gonna get out of me.
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your a crybaby and a bully. This is probably the only place in where you feel any power in your life and when anyone comes along who has a different opinion than you get mad and just want to bully and insult and beat your chest about how you are the greatest. Your boss at work probably treats you like shit all day, your wife is probably nagging you all the time then you come on here and finally i show up and you have someone to excercise power over because your the big man whos been here for 8 years.
You've insulted and berated me incessantly but I truly feel sorry for you.
This is over. Say what you want, il discuss specific points of evidence with you from now on but nothing else. Throw your little temper tantrums all you want you sad little hyper monkey boy, because this is the last bit of energy your gonna get out of me.
Quoting this post so you can't delete it later.
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im so scared.
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I'm not saying I WILL use it to embarrass you later. I'd just like to have the option, you know?
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And you are a global moderator?
I'm out of this forum.
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And you are a global moderator?
I'm out of this forum.
There's more than one Primal Diet forum online you can join. That's just not what this place is.
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Are you kidding me?
This is the primal diet section of the forum.
Thats exactly what this place is.
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Are you kidding me?
This is the primal diet section of the forum.
Thats exactly what this place is.
Those categories are 10 years old. We've just never changed them, but ALL the long-term members who experiment with raw dairy end up regretting it. I use it from time to time, but generally have to stop after a few months, because the allergic reactions get too bad. It's just reality. Just because you want it to work doesn't mean it actually works.
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great job sidestepping the issue again.
The fact is people think you are an asshole, ciervo shaman isnt the only one, remember theres a private message function on here. You are driving people away.
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great job sidestepping the issue again.
If you would actually take the time to read the posts I've told you to read, you'd see we've discussed this issue to death a dozen times over. Hell, just do a search for threads with the keywords "milk" or "dairy" in the title. Just reading through those threads will probably take you 5 or 6 hours.
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In my experience, when people throw totally random insults like that, it's often a sign of projection. cherimoya couldn't possibly know what it was like for your mother, svrn, to raise you, but he knows what it was like for his mother to raise him, you see? That's what he was really talking about. The same goes for everything else he says in these contexts. He's accused me of being a loser, without any knowledge of my personal life, because he feels like a failure in his own life. He's accused you of being ignorant, because he feels like he has no valuable information to offer. And so on. Typically someone in this situation would not be aware of these issues, because they're unable to see and accept them in themselves (which is why they can't solve these problems), so their minds see those things everywhere they look, as long as they're looking outward, at other people.
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Those categories are 10 years old. We've just never changed them, but ALL the long-term members who experiment with raw dairy end up regretting it. I use it from time to time, but generally have to stop after a few months, because the allergic reactions get too bad. It's just reality. Just because you want it to work doesn't mean it actually works.
Are you messing with me are you just thick? The post previous to this one was discussing you saying that isnt the forum for primal diet and that he should take it somewhere else. Yet this is the primal diet section of the forum. The issue is that you were completely telling him this isnt the place to discuss dairy issues when this is labeled as the perfect place to do so.
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In my experience, when people throw totally random insults like that, it's often a sign of projection. cherimoya couldn't possibly know what it was like for your mother, svrn, to raise you, but he knows what it was like for his mother to raise him, you see? That's what he was really talking about. The same goes for everything else he says in these contexts. He's accused me of being a loser, without any knowledge of my personal life, because he feels like a failure in his own life. He's accused you of being ignorant, because he feels like he has no valuable information to offer. And so on. Typically someone in this situation would not be aware of these issues, because they're unable to see and accept them in themselves (which is why they can't solve these problems), so their minds see those things everywhere they look, as long as they're looking outward, at other people.
Interesting point as one of his favorite insults is calling me "boy" like hes the adult in the situation. Yet hes the one who's name contains the word "kid". Perhaps some childhood issue projection going on in these temper tantrums.
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Interesting point as one of his favorite insults is calling me "boy" like hes the adult in the situation. Yet hes the one who's name contains the word "kid". Perhaps some childhood issue projection going on in these temper tantrums.
It's common for people with unresolved childhood trauma to have some aspects of their personality never develop past childhood, especially in the modern western environment where there's a widespread tendency to infantilize adults, both in theory as in action, so these individuals have an even tougher time than would be normal addressing these problems.
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Yes these problems can crop up in me too when I start eating a lot of fruit. Violent and antisocial tendencies start to show their head in me again, granted iv never been the one to start problems of a violent nature in my life but before primal diet iv always had a short fuse and living in nyc, there is no shortage of people ready to ignite it. My fuse is currently very long and I am proud to say I havent been involved in a violent altercation since going primal all these years, the amount of people igniting the fuse hasnt changed, it is my health and body that has changed. Before primal I was getting into maybe 3 fights a year for many years.