Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: Victor K on July 11, 2015, 11:24:41 am
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Has anyone here tried the dietary guidelines laid out in AV's second book. Has anyone followed his daily protocol to gain weight? To anyone who has, how'd it go?
The diet he outlines is:
fruit - 5%(4-6 oz)
Meat - 25%-30%(1-3 pounds)
Fat(liberal amounts butter, plenty of eggs) - 25%(8-24 oz)
Veggie Juice (mostly celery) - 25-30%(2-6 cups)
milk - 10-20%(up to 2 quarts)
Wondering if it's worth the effort to get my hands on raw dairy in Canada x.x. I'd really like to gain some healthy fat on my body.
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I havent bought his second book. I wasnt sure whether it was worth buying. is it?
Are those recommendations his daily diet for putting on weight? If so, that amount is incredible!! Up to 720 grams of extra fat!?! wtf!
Also, by meat, does be mean lean meat?
Can you tell me what he would eat on a daily basis?
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I have both of AVs books. Dont bother with them. Eat whole raw paleo foods.
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I would very much recommend his second book. I don't understand why people knock him here. He has observed and documented the effects of raw foods on more people than anyone else(that I know). I have personally found his knowledge to be accurate. I think some people react adversely to dairy & eggs. Which is a big part of his diet. So they don't find his information useful. For raw milk he says to let it come to room temperature first before drinking. Cold milk can cause allergic reactions(something about the milk proteins making into the bloodstream undigested consequently). If theres still reaction he says to make kefir and add raw honey to help digest. For raw eggs some people just adverse reactions. Aajonus claims reactions may just be a detox. Bloating from milk may just be your body using the extra minerals to get rid of toxins in gut. He claims diarrhea/vomiting are always detoxes. People may heve true allergies too. I'd be curious to hear why many people here don't find his information helpful.
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Victor, AV's preaching of raw dairy has lost him a lot of credibility here. It just doesn't work well for some people, period. Guy-Claude Burger's nutritional practices get more respect because they're more in line with what works for people, as well as how we evolved to eat.
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AV promoted a very artificial modern diet which appealed to people who did not want to eat raw meats to any real extent. So raw, dairy, raw veggie-juice, raw coconut cream, raw honey and raw, ground nuts were promoted endlessly as THE main components of the Primal Diet solely because they were easiest, re taste, for former cooked-foodists to try out, and, needless to say, many people suffered thereby from nutritional imbalances etc. . Also, AV's constant insistence that it was impossible to be allergic to raw dairy grated on people like me. I was fooled for a time with his detox explanations etc., but, in the end, realised AV was dead wrong on this.
Another point AV forgot was that many illnesses cause or aggravate allergies so that promoting raw foods that are often allergenic to ill people is a really bad idea.
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AV promoted a very artificial modern diet which appealed to people who did not want to eat raw meats to any real extent. So raw, dairy, raw veggie-juice, raw coconut cream, raw honey and raw, ground nuts were promoted endlessly as THE main components of the Primal Diet solely because they were easiest, re taste, for former cooked-foodists to try out, and, needless to say, many people suffered thereby from nutritional imbalances etc.
This is completely wrong. The primal diet has always been primarily a meat-based diet; with dairy, eggs, honey, vegetable juices, coconut cream, fruits, nuts and seeds and oils only as supplements to the meat. AV has always said that plenty of people stayed healthy by being entirely carnivorous. The other foods help deal with less than optimal health, by promoting detoxes and by helping to manage the detoxes.
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Rubbish. AV always recommended vast amounts of raw dairy and raw honey etc., never just as supplements but as major foods of the primal diet. When I told him via e-mail that I was doing his kind of diet minus the raw dairy and raw veggie-juice, he simply told me that I was clearly not doing his Primal Diet at all. Besides, his recipes mostly called for raw dairy for example.
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From the recipe book, general diet, daily intake: (p39)
* 1-3 pounds (3-9 cups) of raw meat (red meat, and/or seafood, and/or fowl).
* 8-24 ounces of raw fat (unsalted butter, cream, coconut cream juiced from coconut, meat, eggs, unsalted cheese, coconut, avocado, oils pressed under 96F)
* 8-12 ounces raw milk.
* 4-6 ounces only of raw fruit with equal amounts of raw fat.
* 2-6 cups of raw green vegetable juices.
The recipes and sauces for meat are mainly for making it taste better, not for improved health. He's always said that meat is digested better alone or with another raw fat. In fact the main reason to add another raw fat to meats is so that you don't use up all your meat for energy and have no nutrients leftover for healing and rebuilding. Most people don't like to consume huge amounts of meat alone and AV was sensitive to that, but he never thought of it as a problem, much the opposite in fact, generally the more raw meat you can eat, the better, especially if it's high.
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Wondering if it's worth the effort to get my hands on raw dairy in Canada x.x. I'd really like to gain some healthy fat on my body.
Yes, totally worth it. Once you start having dairy, your diet will seem incomplete without it. It also promotes heavy detoxes and helps to manage them, which is why many people here don't like it. They start having dairy, have a detox and think it's some lactose intolerance or allergy or something, and quit.
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Yes, totally worth it. Once you start having dairy, your diet will seem incomplete without it. It also promotes heavy detoxes and helps to manage them, which is why many people here don't like it. They start having dairy, have a detox and think it's some lactose intolerance or allergy or something, and quit.
TylerDurden almost detoxed his TEETH before he gave up on raw dairy.
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It would be interesting to know if there are indeed any super healthy specimens who have followed the AV protocol with large amounts of dairy for extended periods of time.
Most people who go for the primal diet are already damaged in a way that may prevent them from ever becoming a supreme specimen of health and vitality, regardless of what approach they take, still it would be affirming to the AV followers if there was someone of outstanding quality to take up the primal torch and help evolve the diet further and Shepard AVs lost flocks to the promise land of milk and honey tolerance .
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Most of the other recipes include raw dairy in them and often including raw nuts and raw coconut cream and sometimes even raw honey. AV wanted to get as many people into his diet as possible and knew damn well that raw meats were more difficult to get used to than other raw foods. I agree that he did once claim in his books that raw meats were more useful for rebuilding the body's health than raw eggs but he rarely liked to admit such.
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Yes, totally worth it. Once you start having dairy, your diet will seem incomplete without it. It also promotes heavy detoxes and helps to manage them, which is why many people here don't like it. They start having dairy, have a detox and think it's some lactose intolerance or allergy or something, and quit.
The detox lie is one of the main reasons why people quit the primal diet after a while. There is a big difference between a genuine detox which is minor and does not usually coincide with a particular raw food, and false detoxes which are really just genuine allergies to non-palaeo raw foods such as raw dairy or raw veggie juice.
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Most of the other recipes include raw dairy in them and often including raw nuts and raw coconut cream and sometimes even raw honey. AV wanted to get as many people into his diet as possible and knew damn well that raw meats were more difficult to get used to than other raw foods. I agree that he did once claim in his books that raw meats were more useful for rebuilding the body's health than raw eggs but he rarely liked to admit such.
Here's a few quotes that took me 5 minutes to find:
Prior to the importation of German cooking cauldrons, Eskimos ate their meat raw. The Eskimo-diet was 99% animal products (fish, Caribou, seal, moose, bear, whale, etc.). Eskimos lived free of degenerative diseases. Based on my experiences, eating raw food was the primary factor that enabled them to stay strong, energetic, and happy, and to live without disease under strenuous climatic conditions. (recipe book, p14)
For some people, eating raw meat is nearly impossible unless it has a familiar flavor. Therefore, most of the recipes I present in this book are to increase peoples’ appetite for raw meat. (recipe book, p26)
I suggest that we do not drink so much milk that we cancel our appetite for meat and other foods. (recipe book, p36)
Even though I have hundreds of [meat] sauce-recipes, usually I eat meats plain. When I spice meats, usually it is a time when I am repulsed by or bored with plain meats. If I do not eat meats daily, after a day or two I do not feel or function as well. Sauces help me eat meats at those times. (recipe book, p62)
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This does not change the fact that most of AV's recipes included raw dairy etc.
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I havent read AVs book, but I do agree that from time to time having a tasty sause to dip my meat does add varity and flavor, though using it in a way so that people who have not yet become accustom to raw meat, can aviod tasting raw meat, seems more of a crutch and could be counterproductive to the development of instinctive paleo eatting habits.
I typically eat everything without any fancy seasonings but on occasion I will experment. I like Toum- its a middel eastern sause made with garlic parsly and raw yogert. I regularly use coconut butter as a side dish to any meat plate... other condoments used sparingly- spicy mustard, a few slivers of pickeled ginger, red chilly, coconut curry.
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...seems more of a crutch and could be counterproductive to the development of instinctive paleo eatting habits.
Exactly. I have nothing against mixing foods and using condiments. However, if you never really learn how to get in touch with your food instincts, then you're just sort of guessing as to what you need to eat.
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If one checks articles on what palaeo tribes really ate one finds that they ate a very wide variety indeed, far greater than what any of us eat. I also can get tired of eating certain raw meats and I then switch to either another wild game animal or eat mainly raw seafood etc. Recipes are mainly for beginners, imo, especially females. The first question women usually ask me when starting out is what RPD recipes there might be.Hmm, I do not think we have any official threads on recipes but there were some wonderfully aesthetic ones made by Inger and others in the culinary creations forum, as I recall.
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TylerDurden almost detoxed his TEETH before he gave up on raw dairy.
Where can I read more about this?
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Where can I read more about this?
I think I gave my, er, "life-story" as regards my past ill-health on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group and probably also in the very early posts on this forum. Perhaps my journal section has some mention thereof. Pretty depressing reading, despite the eventual recovery.
Basically, my teeth were very loose by the time I switched from aan SMD diet to a cooked-palaeo in my 20s. I could push them backwards and forwards quite a bit. My then raw vegan and fruitarian phase did not change my teeth-status. I then had a very small improvement when I switched to a sort of a pathetic instintoish attempt at a diet involving very low quality raw meats, and then when I consumed raw dairy afterwards while doing the Primal Diet, I would eventually find my teeth so loose that I was deathly afraid of losing them. After cutting out the raw dairy completely, I had to be very careful for a while to age the raw grassfed meats a few days before I dared chew them, and even then I far preferred to just cut the raw meats into small slices and just bolt them down without chewing. It was a close thing - if I had continued with the raw dairy consumption for a few more months, I would have lost whole sections of my teeth for sure. I did not check the status of my teeth until 4 months later, at which point I was surprised to find that I could not move them any more with my tongue or fingers at all.
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That's scary. I'm glad you managed to heal your teeth.
I've had a few loose teeth here and there, but now on the primal diet with as much dairy as I can get, they're fairly strong. It makes sense to me that dairy would make teeth strong, since it's the only thing babies need to grow their first teeth. Why do you think in your case it did the opposite?
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I actually found that my dental health improved some by adding some dairy food back into my diet, though a particular mineral water seems to have been much more beneficial. I wonder if dairy food was especially helpful in the past for some people who didn't live in areas with mineral-rich water or soil? Just pondering.
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That's scary. I'm glad you managed to heal your teeth.
I've had a few loose teeth here and there, but now on the primal diet with as much dairy as I can get, they're fairly strong. It makes sense to me that dairy would make teeth strong, since it's the only thing babies need to grow their first teeth. Why do you think in your case it did the opposite?
I was heavily allergic to raw dairy. It turns out that chronic fatigue is one of those conditions which exacerbates allergic reactions so that was another factor.
Wai Genriuu has pointed out that while dairy might be good for bones in the short-term, that it leads to poor bones later on:-
http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm (http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm)
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Wai Genriuu has pointed out that while dairy might be good for bones in the short-term, that it leads to poor bones later on:-
http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm (http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm)
There is no mention in there about raw versus pasteurized dairy. We all agree that pasteurized dairy is bad for your bones and teeth. So yes, countries that consume more pasteurized dairy will have more osteoporosis. But osteoporosis was rare when milk was mostly consumed raw back in the 1950's - 1920's and before.
Furthermore, many conventional dairy cows are given hormones to produce more milk (estrogen). So that milk is supercharged with estrogen, which is then ingested by us, so according to Wai Genriuu it should protect against osteoporosis, but it actually promotes it.
Dr Pottenger's studies on cats showed that cats fed a diet of 66% raw milk and 33% raw meat developed strong bones and were perfectly healthy, whereas those fed a diet of 66% pasteurized milk and 33% cooked meat developed osteoporosis, as well as many other diseases and completely died off by the third and fourth generations. He also found that putting domestic cats with osteoporosis on the raw milk and raw meat diet improved their condition and usually healed it completely if given enough time on raw. Same for taking sick cats from the cooked group and putting them on raw. He also found the same results when feeding the cats a 66% raw meat and 33% raw milk diet versus 66% cooked meat and 33% pasteurized milk diet.
This is very important because there is no way that cats would get such vast amounts of dairy in the wild other than before being weaned as cubs/kitten. It shows that raw milk is a powerful nutrient for mammals of all ages. And for various reasons, humans should be much more adapted to consuming dairy as adults than cats.
All this of course does not discount your own personal experience with raw dairy.
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The Wai site deliberately pointed out various flaws in dairy which are present in BOTH raw and pasteurised dairy. Excess-calcium-intake is really only possible if one consumes dairy in moderate or higher amounts.
Pottenger studies are flawed and disregard the point that cows' milk, whether raw or pasteurised, is not a natural food for cats.
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The Wai site deliberately pointed out various flaws in dairy which are present in BOTH raw and pasteurised dairy.
Again, in the page you linked there is no mention whatsoever of raw versus pasteurized dairy.
Pottenger studies are flawed and disregard the point that cows' milk, whether raw or pasteurised, is not a natural food for cats.
How are they flawed? They showed that raw milk is a healthy food for cats, and that pasteurized milk is harmful.
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Again, in the page you linked there is no mention whatsoever of raw versus pasteurized dairy.
*sigh* The WHOLE point made by Wai was that BOTH RAW AND PASTEURISED Dairy were harmful and that the excess calcium wasa problem, whether in raw dairy or pasteurised dairy.How are they flawed? They showed that raw milk is a healthy food for cats, and that pasteurized milk is harmful.
The point is that wild cats in the wild do not consume cows' dairy, however raw. Pottenger's studies are therefore irrelevant.
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*sigh* The WHOLE point made by Wai was that BOTH RAW AND PASTEURISED Dairy were harmful and that the excess calcium wasa problem, whether in raw dairy or pasteurised dairy.
That is a claim that needs to be substantiated. Meaning just because he says that is the case, is not enough to prove that it is. Especially when his data comes from people who consume pasteurized or otherwise cooked dairy.
The point is that wild cats in the wild do not consume cows' dairy, however raw. Pottenger's studies are therefore irrelevant.
How do you come to such a conclusion?
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Dariorpl, you got it wrong.
In the raw meat study, one group of cats cats were fed 66% raw meat, 33% raw milk and cod-liver oil, while the other group was fed 66% cooked meat, 33% raw milk, and cod liver oil. The second group is the one that developed all these health problems, despite being fed raw milk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Pottenger,_Jr.
Then, Pottenger did a "raw milk" experiment where he fed one group of cats a diet of 66% pasteurized sweetened etc. milk and 33% raw meat, and the other raw metablized vit D (which as we know helps counter to an extent the effects of excess phosphate from cow milk, which inhibits calcium absorption in humans) milk and raw meat.
They state that the raw milk Vit.D cats were "healthier" than the pasteurized cats, which makes sens. But it doesn't say they where as healthy as the raw meat cats from the other study, and they didn't experiment with raw meat only vs raw meat + "raw" milk, which would've helped settle the score here.
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I don't know if you already heard about this, but GCB explains in his book "Manger Vrai" that he at one point experimented with raw goat milk during the first instincto days. He had bought some goats which he milked himself, so it was the purest form of raw milk. He had already noticed some decline in his health from putting milk back on the menu, especially in the form of extra mucus, runny nose... One day he got a nasty bruise on his arm that got infected, and noticed something: on the days he consumed raw milk, the bruise would heal badly and produce pus, and when it was a milk-free day, it would heal much cleaner and faster. One milk day, pus, no-milk day, clean. After that episode he decided to quit milk, and incidentally his general health improved.
I'd say milk goes somewhere here: cooked grains<cooked veggies and meat<raw milk<raw paleo foods
Maybe another person who got important health issues from drinking raw milk would put it underneath "cooked veggies and meat".
Non-human milk is a survival food, and otherwise, a drug. Unfortunately a very glamorized one. Don't do drugs kids!
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That is a claim that needs to be substantiated. Meaning just because he says that is the case, is not enough to prove that it is. Especially when his data comes from people who consume pasteurized or otherwise cooked dairy.
*sigh* The point is that calcium is calcium, regardless of whether it is in the form of raw or pasteurised dairy. Indeed, since the calcium in raw dairy is more easily absorbable by the human body than the calcium in pasteurised dairy, that therefore the issue of excess calcium in raw dairy is a far more important matter.
How do you come to such a conclusion?
Obviously, cats in the wild do not and have never eaten raw cows' milk, let alone the pasteurised version!
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JeuneKoq, Dr. Pottenger did many different studies on many different cats.
The "vitamin D" milk is just milk from cows fed irradiated yeast, and those cats in particular did a lot worse than the cats fed regular raw milk. Irradiation destroys nutrients, perhaps moreso than regular cooking.
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JeuneKoq, Dr. Pottenger did many different studies on many different cats.
The "vitamin D" milk is just milk from cows fed irradiated yeast, and those cats in particular did a lot worse than the cats fed regular raw milk. Irradiation destroys nutrients, perhaps moreso than regular cooking.
Could you post a link?
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*sigh* The point is that calcium is calcium, regardless of whether it is in the form of raw or pasteurised dairy. Indeed, since the calcium in raw dairy is more easily absorbable by the human body than the calcium in pasteurised dairy, that therefore the issue of excess calcium in raw dairy is a far more important matter.
Again, that is a claim that needs substantiation. I don't think that "calcium is calcium". If that was true, we could get all the calcium we need through a mineral supplement, but that is not the case. Our bodies require the calcium that is naturally present in raw foods and bound to other nutrients.
Obviously, cats in the wild do not and have never eaten raw cows' milk, let alone the pasteurised version!
Why would it matter whether wild cats do or do not eat cow milk? The studies proved that cats were healthy and reversed disease on raw milk, and they were unhealthy and became sick on pasteurized milk. How in the world are these findings invalidated based on what the cats wild diet would be?
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Could you post a link?
http://www.realmilk.com/health/francis-pottenger-and-the-hazards-of-a-health-fetish/ (http://www.realmilk.com/health/francis-pottenger-and-the-hazards-of-a-health-fetish/)
The metabolized vitamin D (a synthetic form of the vitamin present in the milk because the cows had been fed irradiated yeast) proved to be so toxic that it overrode the benefits of the otherwise optimal all-raw diet that were proven in the animals fed plain raw milk. Thus one type of milk that was not pasteurized had indeed not provided adequate nutrition.
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Again, that is a claim that needs substantiation. I don't think that "calcium is calcium". If that was true, we could get all the calcium we need through a mineral supplement, but that is not the case. Our bodies require the calcium that is naturally present in raw foods and bound to other nutrients.
Your argument is illogical. The WHOLE point of Wai's argument is that excess calcium is very bad/unhealthy for you, regardless of whether it is raw or not. Since calcium is anyway more absorbable on a raw diet than a cooked one, it is logical to assume that calcium from a raw source such as raw dairy is a whole lot more dangerous to health.
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http://www.realmilk.com/health/francis-pottenger-and-the-hazards-of-a-health-fetish/ (http://www.realmilk.com/health/francis-pottenger-and-the-hazards-of-a-health-fetish/)
The metabolized vitamin D (a synthetic form of the vitamin present in the milk because the cows had been fed irradiated yeast) proved to be so toxic that it overrode the benefits of the otherwise optimal all-raw diet that were proven in the animals fed plain raw milk. Thus one type of milk that was not pasteurized had indeed not provided adequate nutrition.
Understood. Still, a shame he didn't study raw meat only vs. raw meat and raw milk.
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Your argument is illogical. The WHOLE point of Wai's argument is that excess calcium is very bad/unhealthy for you, regardless of whether it is raw or not. Since calcium is anyway more absorbable on a raw diet than a cooked one, it is logical to assume that calcium from a raw source such as raw dairy is a whole lot more dangerous to health.
Well I believe that calcium in raw foods is never bad for you, but calcium in cooked foods or in mineral supplements is bad for you.
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Understood. Still, a shame he didn't study raw meat only vs. raw meat and raw milk.
Yes. Although we know what the results would've been. The raw meat only group would far outperform the raw milk only group, which would slowly waste away.
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The real shame is that none of these kind of studies seem to be happening anymore.... gone are the days when the university labs were manned by free thinkers not shackled by the corporate money which now controls most research programs of today.
Give me a few million dollars( roughly the same amount now being invested in erectile dysfunction research), a fully equipped lab, about a dozen unindoctrinated employed bright minds, and within a few short years we would have the definitive answers... until then we are simply making educated guesses on many of these issues, based part on experience and part on incomplete studies.
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The real shame is that none of these kind of studies seem to be happening anymore.... gone are the days when the university labs were manned by free thinkers not shackled by the corporate money which now controls most research programs of today.
Give me a few million dollars( roughly the same amount now being invested in erectile dysfunction research), a fully equipped lab, about a dozen unindoctrinated employed bright minds, and within a few short years we would have the definitive answers... until then we are simply making educated guesses on many of these issues, based part on experience and part on incomplete studies.
Indeed...
I think I could do studies for even less money than that. Probably could start with a couple hundred thousand and study mice.
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Yes. Although we know what the results would've been. The raw meat only group would far outperform the raw milk only group, which would slowly waste away.
I wrote raw meat only versus raw milk and raw meat.
I've got two cats at home: I'll feed my favorite one raw meats, and the other one, raw meat and milk ;)
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I wrote raw meat only versus raw milk and raw meat.
Oh, I misread. Yes, it would be interesting. I suppose the 66% raw meat and 33% raw milk group may be the best for the cats that were already sick, or coming from a sick lineage of cats fed cooked diets. And for healthy cats I suppose it may not make much difference from that one to the 100% meat. But I'm only speculating.
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Indeed...
I think I could do studies for even less money than that. Probably could start with a couple hundred thousand and study mice.
Mice aren't humans, and especially cats are not humans. You don't seem to realize that the collective personal experience here trumps any animal study. And the whole "dairy causes ongoing detox" is just idiotic and ignorant. And that's that.
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Mice aren't humans, and especially cats are not humans.
Since cats have been much less exposed to milk than humans have during their evolutionary history (or design), the fact that they do well with it does indicate that in all likelihood, humans will do even better. While this is not absolute proof, it's a strong indication. Regarding mice, whether we like it or not, they're the chosen animal to study nutrition and drugs regarding their potential effects on humans. So if nothing else, a strong study on mice would be cheap and possibly deal a significant blow to the medical and nutritional establishment.
You don't seem to realize that the collective personal experience here trumps any animal study.
The problem is that it's very hard to quantify collective personal experience, especially because of selection bias.
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How expensive is a lab chimp?
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Again- a few Million dollars to start a number of comprehensive long term animal and human studies, using the most sophisticated science of our day and we would have a much better idea of whats going on.
Perhaps we could even identify the reasons why some individuals tolerate dairy better than others, and even design test which would be accurate enough to determine if Dairy is harmful on an individual basis. Until that day which may never come, it is up to each individual to use their own common sense and gut feelings to the best of their abilities, to determine what is best, without being arrogant enough to attempt to speak of universality regarding the entire human race
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If I were in charge of a multi-million dollar study I would experiment first with myself with raw human milk. If money wasn't an issue I am sure I could find about ten of the highest yielding wet nurses of paleo-ish standard to provide ample supply of milk straight from the tit. Oh Yeah!
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Since cats have been much less exposed to milk than humans have during their evolutionary history (or design), the fact that they do well with it does indicate that in all likelihood, humans will do even better. While this is not absolute proof, it's a strong indication. Regarding mice, whether we like it or not, they're the chosen animal to study nutrition and drugs regarding their potential effects on humans. So if nothing else, a strong study on mice would be cheap and possibly deal a significant blow to the medical and nutritional establishment.
The problem is that it's very hard to quantify collective personal experience, especially because of selection bias.
Selection bias? Selection bias is when people get banned from Primal Diet forums for posting negative things about raw dairy.
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What primal diet forum?
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What primal diet forum?
Wait, all you've done is read books and eat the Primal Diet? You've never even participated in a Primal or paleo or raw vegan forum? At all?
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Just this one.
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Oh. Wow. Well, sorry, I just assumed otherwise. I apologize for my harsh tone. We get a lot of people here from paleo and raw vegan forums, who are used to the rough and tumble world of nutrition forums.
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I participated in several forums over many years, going back to 2002, so I'm used to the dynamics; but never in any other forums about nutrition.
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I participated in several forums over many years, going back to 2002, so I'm used to the dynamics; but never in any other forums about nutrition.
I'm just so used to giving and receiving the same types of abuse over the same issues that I forget that, just because someone is disagreeing with me and is supporting a common nutritional opinion here (generally veganism, Aajonus, or cooking), doesn't mean they're a veteran of nutrition forum fights, here mostly just to argue, and/or resistant to evidence.
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Yikes hah.
AV promoted a very artificial modern diet which appealed to people who did not want to eat raw meats to any real extent. So raw, dairy, raw veggie-juice, raw coconut cream, raw honey and raw, ground nuts were promoted endlessly as THE main components of the Primal Diet solely because they were easiest, re taste, for former cooked-foodists to try out, and, needless to say, many people suffered thereby from nutritional imbalances etc. . Also, AV's constant insistence that it was impossible to be allergic to raw dairy grated on people like me. I was fooled for a time with his detox explanations etc., but, in the end, realised AV was dead wrong on this.
Another point AV forgot was that many illnesses cause or aggravate allergies so that promoting raw foods that are often allergenic to ill people is a really bad idea.
Wouldn't we need an altered diet to adjust to all the crap we have been put our bodies through? If we tried to eat what we did when we were wild animals now I bet we wouldn't get enough fat. How much fat could we really get off a truly wild animal? Would it be able to satiate you? And would it heal very sick people as well. AV's patients had a very good survival rate to cancer if the claims are true. I've tried doing raw without dairy and eggs. Eating the fattest cuts available(albeit I did not know butchers so only got the traditional cuts) I still felt STARVING which led to junk-food binges. How can you get healthier if you cannot follow a diet simply because your body is starving? I don't think it is fair to many people that may read this forum and believe AV's approach is not worth trying. I do fine with raw eggs. I do fine with raw goats milk(so far anyways). Same goes for unheated honey and celery juice. If you do not eat these foods your left with Meats and Fruits/Veggies. Which is fine if that works for you. I personally don't think I could satiate myself without eggs at least.
Don't get me wrong. I wish AV put more emphasis on other topics such as earthing, emfs, exercise, wild vs domesticated etc. His books are very partial. He doesn't substantiate any of his claims. He didn't properly record any of his research. But I believe he has a very good baseline of information based on observations of a lifetime that no one else really has. I'll do some research to the guy you mentioned. GCB I think. Does he have books?
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http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggindex.html (http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggindex.html)
"ANOPSOLOGY A VERY NEW APPROACH TO HUMAN HEALTH" by GCB
This book would be a good place to start.
There is merit in the core principles of Instinctive nutrition, though the details as laid out by GBC are up for debate.
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By the way I just finished proofreading and correcting this on-line translation and put it on pdf. The online version is not too bad but there are some mistakes as if the translator didn't understand what she translated.
I can send the pdf to forum members who request it and provide me their e-mail address. I advised GCB to sale it as an e-book but he hasn't done it yet.
François
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Thanks for that, Iguana. Are you like GCB's favorite Instincto these days?
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I have read a little so far. So GCB promotes 100% raw asides from milk and eats one food at a time. He seems to promote fruit a lot more than AV does, yes? I remember reading from AV's book that if you eat too much fruit you won't heal among other problems with too much fruit. Is he pro-eggs? For wild edibles he says you can just taste test and if you like it eat it, even with mushrooms. Has anyone done this? I confess I've done this with unidentified berries, never mushrooms though.
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Thanks for that, Iguana. Are you like GCB's favorite Instincto these days?
"GCB's favorite Instincto"? What do you mean? We are friends, nothing more.
For the ones requesting a copy of the book, please provide me your e-mail: we can't attach anything on PMs.
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Viktor, AV's highly artificial diet was so far from rawpalaeo principles that it did not heal very well. At any rate, raw animal fat is easily obtainable from non-raw-raw-dairy sources, such as raw marrow, raw suet, the white fat from raw muscle-meat and raw heart, raw brains, raw tongue etc. etc.
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I can vouch for the availability of enough fat in grass-fed animals under the right conditions to support a high fat diet.
During the apex hunter days of the last couple of ice ages our ancestors hunted big game that had ample amounts of quality raw fat available. Even hunters of leaner game meat, would consume all the body fat, marrow, belly fat, ect, and often they would throw the leaner tougher scraps to the dogs. Herders in the early neolithic period breed animals that were also high in fat.
The pasture raised sheep I butcher are a prime example of how one can live off the fat of the land. Modern agriculture butchers animals that are too young to build healthy fat reserves from pasture. Lamb is abysmally lean, and the quality of fat in pasture raised cows, isn't as good too me as that of mutton. You allow an animal to reach at least three years of age on rich pasture and there should be plenty of fat for even the most fat hungry carnivore.
There are even ways to fatten up pasture animals more naturally, I have noticed that older ewes that are not bred and don't have to nurse young lambs every year will build up ungodly levels of fat. And older Rams that are kept from chasing after females will spend all the time and energy that would normally go into breeding into passing every hour of the day eating and building up fat.
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Unfortunately, evil UK authorities used the BSE crisis which hit lots of grainfed cattle-herds to force ALL cattle, even 100% grassfed cattle, to be slaughtered at 30 months before they can gain a decent amount of raw fat.
All that said, I have done very well in raw wild game, minus the fatty raw organs, so, maybe, the issue of raw fat is not the end of the world as long as one is NOT doing RZC.
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I have read a little so far. So GCB promotes 100% raw asides from milk and eats one food at a time. He seems to promote fruit a lot more than AV does, yes? I remember reading from AV's book that if you eat too much fruit you won't heal among other problems with too much fruit. Is he pro-eggs? For wild edibles he says you can just taste test and if you like it eat it, even with mushrooms. Has anyone done this? I confess I've done this with unidentified berries, never mushrooms though.
In a sense, GCB promotes nothing but a taste- and smell-based, mindful way of eating unprocessed foods. By paying attention to the subtle signals from the taste and smell organs, the appetite is directed to eat the right amounts of the right foods at the right time. Even such a small amount of processing such as mixing, mashing, or seasoning foods is enough to "fool" your taste and smell into mis-identifying signals. Anopsologists have a great body of writings about the experience of instinctotherapie, and those writings contain many observations about particular foods, but I don't think those observations are a promotion of anything. At least, not the way I read it.
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Burger is more right than AV on so many things. The issue of eating raw foods, one at a time, ie mono-eating makes sense. I always notice that if I mix raw foods in one meal, or if I add any spices, however raw, to my raw animal foods, that I always inevitably eat a lot more than I should.
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Unfortunately, evil UK authorities used the BSE crisis which hit lots of grainfed cattle-herds to force ALL cattle, even 100% grassfed cattle, to be slaughtered at 30 months before they can gain a decent amount of raw fat.
All that said, I have done very well in raw wild game, minus the fatty raw organs, so, maybe, the issue of raw fat is not the end of the world as long as one is NOT doing RZC.
This is a big part of a big problem that often goes unnoticed in Low carb circles.
The practice of slaughtering at thirty months is the end of the world for those who rely on the fat and flesh of those animals as primary sustenance. The fact is that 30 month animals are not fully grown, and their tissues may not be as fortified with the accumulative nutrients and minerals as fully grown mature animals in their prime. So people who are attempting VLC while getting the majority of their calories from a limited selection of parts from immature animals will not be able to obtain optimal nutrition.
Traditional hunters would often go for the older fatter males, that lived without boarders and could forage for whatever it needed...... now most people have to chose parts and pieces from thirty month old adolescent animals that have been castrated and confined to limited pasture range with often limited variety of forage.
As for Burger, I think that his basic guidelines for honing ones instinct are a good staring point, but could be greatly expanded when it comes to seeking out the sources of ones nutrients. There is great value in going directly to the source, and paying close attention to the plants and animals you will be using for food while they are alive and in their natural environment. Over long periods of time observing the differences in quality within a wide variety of potential food sources one may begin to develop the kind of wisdom of discernment which guided our paleo ancestors in their own food choices.
No amount of dietary advise from strangers on the internet could possibly replace the kind of experience that one can get from foraging for ones own food, or killing your own animals while using ones own god given senses..... tasting the blood and inspecting the tissues before deciding if its good enough to eat it..... then if it is good, as the apex predator, one could chose to take only the best parts and leave the rest for the scavengers... like the grizzly bears who when fattening for winter will discard much of the lean meat of the fish they catch.
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You are correct, but unfortunately Austria has harsh laws as regards hunting. Poaching leads to fines and imprisonment, and a hunting-licence costs the earth. Basically, it is only worth hunting if you are a farmer. Only farmers have the free time to spend on hunting and I suspect they get discounts on the licences etc.
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Unfortunately, evil UK authorities used the BSE crisis which hit lots of grainfed cattle-herds to force ALL cattle, even 100% grassfed cattle, to be slaughtered at 30 months before they can gain a decent amount of raw fat.
That's insane.
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After getting access to members area of ww2live.com i can tell that tylerdurden is misquoting aajonus on a lot of things. Are you up to the research and modifications he made from years 2005-2013? Huge changes.
All things that are being said here are mostly lies. I recommend that you investigate what was his late info.
Just too many misquotes here.
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For example.. He recommend 1/4 tsp maximum honey, and if you have taste for it. He says when you are healthy you don't need it anymore.
He says dairy "allergies" (detox) stops after you finish detoxing. And that he was not having more symptoms just few years before his death.
Same with eggs.
Re veggie juice. He says he drank 1 cup per week cause he was already healed. It was a need for ill people only
Also he says that if you can eat all your meat high, is much better than fresh.
Well.. I felt like comenting this cause i like his work. I feel in tune with his findings
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A lot of people ruined their lives to some extent by listening to AV's detox theories, myself included. I am sure that some people do fine on AV's artificial diet, but not many. AV also recommended things like overating. In actual fact, since raw foods mostly contain more nutrients than cooked foods(due to heating/cooking depleting nutrients), it is not necessary to eat as much on a RVAF diet.
As regards AV's claims in his first 2 books, I am right on target there. I remember reading the recipes and finding out that most contained raw dairy in them. Perhaps AV's revised edition of WWTL in the last few years is significantly different from the earlier books, I admit I haven't read it.
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That is why i comment thst here. This is primal diet forum.
And overeating was part of the program for sick people too.
I don't know if it is neccessary or not. But he believed being thin could make you very bad due to toxic environment and pollution and cities (not having fats to store environmental and induatrial toxins, due to our actual world.). He cited masai as the healthiest (and they are thin, but in pristine environment)
He did not wrote more books. He wrote "newsletters" and there are like hundreds of hours of lectures by him, and questions made by his patients.
I insist, you are misinterpreting his diet. It's not what you say it is. It is what it is. And there is so much information that even you that are so anti-AV would be surprised to see how much in tune with your actual diet he is.
I will not explain in details what is all about. But i recommend anyone feeling in touch with him, to seek for the latest info.
He didn't wanted to make new books cause it was a waste of money. Internet was better to communicate.
And also.. A lot of people feel blessed by his info and help. I dont believe anyone ruined his life by following a specific diet given by him. You misinterpet his books and believe you are doing primal diet and mainly eating fruits honey cream and nuts. And that is not primal diet. But people tend to look for support for their sugar adiction and found in primaldiet a great excuse.
Primal diet is not a high sugar diet. He never recomended not even starches nor honey nor fruits in high amounts.
Just wanted to make users aware that this forum on primal diet has little to do with real primal diet.
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A lot of people ruined their lives to some extent by listening to AV's detox theories, myself included. I am sure that some people do fine on AV's artificial diet, but not many. AV also recommended things like overating. In actual fact, since raw foods mostly contain more nutrients than cooked foods(due to heating/cooking depleting nutrients), it is not necessary to eat as much on a RVAF diet.
As regards AV's claims in his first 2 books, I am right on target there. I remember reading the recipes and finding out that most contained raw dairy in them. Perhaps AV's revised edition of WWTL in the last few years is significantly different from the earlier books, I admit I haven't read it.
Well, the recipes are not the diet. Are just that, recipes. To make people hunger for meat. That is on his own words.
If you haven't even read the updated versions of his books. Why you quote him so much? Every time i read you saying "aajonus recomendation re something" it is usually something different to what i'm reading from him.
I'm not against you. Just want to give credit to someone that has really helped me understand my body.
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The trouble is that those recipes contained way too much dairy etc. and not enough meat. He also recommended eating vast amounts of raw meat.
As I recall, he only updated the 1st book a bit and continued selling the 2nd book unchanged, according to what others said. Whatever the case, I have never viewed Aajonus as being 100% wrong. Indeed he led me on to high-meat etc etc..
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ciervo-chaman : Thanks for posting. After 16 months following AV's diet as much as I can I feel amazing. Sometimes hard to obtain all the foods to do his remedies. But, the more of them I include the better I feel. I am glad to find others that have had positive experience with his diet. May I E-mail you? I would like to ask some things about the up-to-date aajonus info. I have trolled some of the newsletters and some of his interviews on wewant2live. But it sounds like you have more than I and I would like to ask you some things.
I think with dairy people would have less trouble if they did 2 things aajonus recommends with milk
1) Let it sour for 5-6 hours at room temperature
2) Make sure it is not cold when you drink
If I drink milk straight from a goat warm and not let it sour I still get allergic reaction. If I drink it cold I get a horrible allergic reaction. With cream and butter I have found non-organic will give me problems. With eggs even organic ones if the chickens are fed a generic 'organic feed' I have had problems with those as well. The only honey that agrees with me is honeycomb. I have never found a good extracted honey.
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We are all different re food-intolerances/allergies. That said, aajonus' recommendations re drinking milk at room-temperature did not work for me and most other people. Letting it sour does help a few, apparently. other people swear that only consuming raw butter or raw cheese instead of other types of raw dairy helped them. That said, I reckon that if one is even slightly sllergic to one type of a particular food, then one is very likely to be harmed(however slightly) by other types of that food in the long-term. So, for example, someone may thrive initially on raw butter but become swiftly allergic to raw milk/cheese/yoghurt/cream - and, in the end, slow down his health-recovery after a year or two as enough proteins from the raw butter clog/inflame his system.
Re honeycomb:- I have the same problem. Except that I also have issues with imported honeycomb as well(which likely must have been slightly preheated/processsed before export). What makes it worse is that, in the UK, honey can still be legally labelled "raw" as long as it is "only"(!) heated up to 80 degrees Celsius for a short while.