Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: RogueFarmer on May 12, 2016, 01:16:22 pm
-
I'm not a doctor so I am probably pretty miserable at diagnosing myself, but I can say that I have suffered from depression for around half of time here on earth. I grew up an only child but my early childhood was exceedingly rich as I grew up in the countryside along a large and extremely healthy river. There were few rules in those days, I was to avoid the highway on the hill above our holler, the old abandoned fire house, the well houses (the only rule I broke) and the deep part of the river. I chewed on grass, clover flowers and leaves and wild strawberries. In the winter and throughout most of the year we lived off of venison, wild turkey or fish from the river and lakes. Of course all good things come to an end and since my young parents wanted to make more money and they were staying at my grandma's house they decided to move to the city. Although a very intelligent student who always tested strongly in all categories, I failed many classes and was usually dismissed as a poor student. I easily passed my GED and attended a year of college but after returning to my original home once more after my first year, I worked at an organic vegetable farm which I had originally visited as a young student on a field trip.
This was a life changing event which quickly restored to me a great deal of the vitality I had lost from years of city life. Living close to healthy soil, cuts and scrapes healed quickly with no treatment but dirt and saliva. Fermented vegetables and a renewed steady diet of wild berries helped restore my biological flora and for the first time in 13 years illness and ill thrift were no longer threats on the horizon like they had been before. I tasted my vigor renewed and in the passing years new exploration and my own self education escalated my health to greater and greater heights. However I returned to the city to find my health in crisis and new measures must be learned and taken to create a viable bubble from the toxic funeral that await those who do not take the helm of their destiny. Which of course eventually led me to this forum and many questionable life decisions.
In my own pursuit of health and in execution of my plan, do to a string of close but no cigar experiences in the farming life, I raised healthy happy animals, many generations, 7 in goats, and 3 in cows. Unfortunately in my prolonged endeavor where I maintained my operation almost entirely under my own effort in all but the worst of all years I experienced which lead to the termination of my livelihood 1 year later as taking care of myself in my reduced, PTSD state became my top priority and to my great sadness I said goodbye to the ones who helped me more than any human ever did and were the only thing that ended my 17 years of depression. I couldn't afford to take care of them anymore because I couldn't afford to take care of myself because I didn't have any help, only people who took advantage of me.
It's been over a year since I left where I am from again as I have so many times. I am starting to feel strong again but is still difficult to deal with the pain. I cannot deal with my depression and my job and buying the foods I need to make me healthy. I need a real life. I am getting ready again to start building my life bubble again. I was remotely prepared for the end of western civilization in 2012 with little resources. I am a natural farmer. I have attempted to shape my method of animal husbandry after the greatest practitioners of organic agriculture recorded in books available on earth. I can succeed with a few natural resources, time, dedication and discipline, but to truly succeed in the presence of modernity, I need the help and support my my community, it is crucial, it is fundamental, it is the beginning and the end.
It says in the bible, "cast not pearls before swine, lest they turn and tear you to pieces."
-
I relate to you.After all, I had awful health-problems for decades and my own family just pretended, at the time, that I was fine, and claimed that I was just lazy, idle etc. rather than admitting that I had CFS, acute anxiety etc. etc. All I really had to do was avoid dairy and grains from early infancy onwards and I would have been fine, well, at least until middle-age..... I wish I had been born during the Palaeolithic era.....
I have no obvious, clear solutions. All I can suggest is that diet cannot solve everything. I, months ago, found this NP3 Ultimate program, which might well help against depression(just search for the appropriate session). It is free for 2 weeks(of course if you regularly remove all cookies etc., it is permanently free, but please pay the paltry amount if it works for you as that helps them further their research and improve their product) :-
https://www.transparentcorp.com/products/np/ (https://www.transparentcorp.com/products/np/)
For the next 10 years or so, I am currently saving up to start up a market garden of my own in the countryside(ie a farm with 10 acres or so). This will vastly increase my income and will finally make me a non-hypocrite as regards a genuine RPD lifestyle.The main reason for my coming up with this idea was yours' and Iguana's experiences in life. I hope you succeed in your endeavours. It is learned, inspired, self-educated, self-motivated people like you who inspire the rest of us laymen to better ourselves in life. I recall a previous thread on this forum, ages ago, where I spuriously claimed that fish-farming was always disastrous for human health, and you proved me wrong with a lot of solid evidence. I liked that.
-
Emil...
-
Many roads are open to those willing to travel.... Im not sure about your individual circumstances, but there are a number of opportunities open to people like yourself who are willing to work.
If you dont have attachments to any particular geographic area there are so many people in this country who would be able to help you. There is a remarkable woman who runs the farm where I get my sheep. She is a biologist, and is very much into the science of animal husbandry and sustainable agriculture. Her and her boyfriend run a local CSA and have a huge garden which is in need of constant work. The last few people who they had helping where flakes whose heart was never into farming. They would love to have someone to stay for the summer season and barter for labor, but there is virtually nobody who is both able and interested in the job in the area.
There seems to be an epidemic of young people who simple have no interest in farm living, so there are a large number of operations who would gladly take on someone who is willing to work in exchange for food, shelter and basic expenses.
-
Another idea might be to improve your coping skills to carry you through the less-than ideal parts of your career. One effective way to get through the times of "hating-my-job" is to have an outrageously fun hobby or activity. Basically, you get through the day in eager anticipation of what you get to do after work. Of course, your next outrageously fun activity will probably be finding the next place to live and work, but it might not pan out all in one, perfect display. You might get a ho-hum job in a more rural area, then land your dream job. Just keep trudging forward. Life is all ups and downs.
-
Livestock was my passion and hobby, I have worked at more farms then I can remember, I have taken care of or at least been partially involved with virtually all manner of livestock as well as horticultural endeavors and I have spent the better part of my life just trying to connect with what is left of nature. Whenever you step onto property that is owned by someone else, in my experience in America, you are entering into a post slavery serfdom existence. America is a debt society and when you have low income because you are per say a seasonal farm worker, every day you are at risk of forfeiting your assets.
Now there is land in America that can be bought or rented reasonably, but it is a delicate balance of the cost of land which is insane in some places, which are also usually where your best markets are, as well as coping with the rigors of climate, cost of commodities and poorer markets and larger cost of doing business.
To be successful as a modern day farmer, you have to compete with robotic industrial agriculture, by producing high quality and high value products for a reasonable price, with a great deal of manual labor that cannot be replicated by machine, to produce a niche product that is in demand and in limited supply. You have to be an economist and balance your expenditures on land and feed and utilities and fuel and determine your most profitable ventures and you have to be a retailer to obtain premium prices for your wares.
I'm sorry I don't really quite no if I believe in your dream job. I had plenty of amazing jobs for amazing people (that I didn't make enough money to survive very well at least by most people's standards) and I don't think because it didn't work out that per say there was something wrong with where I worked or something wrong with me. Instead I see that I am an independent individual who requires for his own mental health to assert his destiny and feels limited and unable to control his own life when he is giving away everything he has to someone else and doesn't seem himself growing stronger and increasing his wealth but rather the opposite, the weakening and diminishing of health and wealth from working for low wages. Sure I save money but I am caught in a mental struggle where I could spend all my money and eat all that delicious nutritious delicacies or I could again try to accumulate my wealth so that I can enlist an investment in a tool or asset to grow my food.
Hobby? Distraction! So I can waste the last of my energy on entertainment when I spent the rest of it toiling all day in someone else's affair.
Unappreciated, disrespected by society, I am not compensated fairly for the calories I expend and consume, my educators, practitioners, benefactors and employers should be in debt for these lungs they ammoniated, these intestines they perforated, these bones they broke, these teeth they rotted. Or am I to blame?
As you say there are many roads, many options. I think the problem is everyone I work with has had entirely different desires, entirely different dreams. They could not see past their dream, they could not see or hear what I offered them, they only saw what they could take from me.
-
... I think the problem is everyone I work with has had entirely different desires, entirely different dreams. They could not see past their dream, they could not see or hear what I offered them, they only saw what they could take from me.
If you think that any of your problems comes from other people, that what might be wrong here. Our only real job here is to take life on life's terms. Like Epictitus said, "Circumstances don't make the man, they only reveal him to himself." If you are troubled by your surroundings, then learn to be untroubled. When you learn how to "be" the man who toils profitably with nature, and it will come about.
In the meantime, you can find something tolerable that helps others - you can never go wrong doing something like that, and helping others takes your mind off your own troubles, which is a good thing.
-
It takes a village to support a farmer....only now there is a global village of people who do not know where their food comes from or who grows it...so farmers on top of having to struggle to make a living also receive less appreciation in the broader world than in generations past.
The only financially successful small scale modern farms I have dealt with have been those run in partnerships. Nobody can do it alone, and finding others who share common goals, work ethics and values can make all the difference in the world.
Also these partnerships typically have other income sources...For example the Lady I get my sheep from is a Part time Biology teacher, who also makes and sells crafts out of alpaca and sheep wool, on top of running a CSA...Her boy friend is an old Farm Hand, who wheels and deals in everything, repairs farm equipment, raises animals and does odd jobs....Between the two of them working constantly at a number of Jobs, they just barely manage to pay the bills and afford a comfortable living. Either of them alone could never keep up with a farm.
I Run my own Hobby farm and remodeled my girlfriends art studio and converted into an Air B & B. I work part time as a free lance handy man, and help run our three rentals, and she is a Massage therapist, and artist. With the two of us working together we do much better than if going at it alone.
https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/4334526?checkin=11%2F16%2F2016&checkout=11%2F17%2F2016&s=i050GSnn (https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/4334526?checkin=11%2F16%2F2016&checkout=11%2F17%2F2016&s=i050GSnn)
If you are truly set on being a farmer then it may be time to think about finding a companion or partner to help with the enterprise.
-
I don't think it's even possible to make a reasonable living at farming anymore, unless you inherit a huge acreage and are willing to grow a subsidized commodity crop. I work in the agricultural sector as a consultant, and 90%+ of the farmers I know who make a living do so largely by having second or even third jobs off-farm to augment their meager farm incomes. Having seen so many negative balance sheets, I marvel at why anyone would want to go into farming.
-
I don't think it's even possible to make a reasonable living at farming anymore, unless you inherit a huge acreage and are willing to grow a subsidized commodity crop. I work in the agricultural sector as a consultant, and 90%+ of the farmers I know who make a living do so largely by having second or even third jobs off-farm to augment their meager farm incomes. Having seen so many negative balance sheets, I marvel at why anyone would want to go into farming.
We have a little hippie town near here full of burnouts from the D.C. rat race. They move to Floyd thinking they can start a little organic farm and live off the land, maybe make a little money....and as you already know, they fail hard, every one of them. Oh well. Their failures help keep the local organic farming supply guy in business. LOL
-
Seems subsidy is the way to go.
But just like any business, do it on your computerized spread sheet first for various scenarios.
If you can't make a business work on your computer spreadsheet, then do not go into it.
-
I live in this massive factory-farm territory called California. The scale of the farm operations here is staggering, with equipment as big as it can get. For example, field agricultural workers (AKA "the Mexicans" even if they do not come from Mexico) are ferried to the fields in 40' buses with a toilet towed behind the bus. A tractor pulls a "work-station" harvesting conveyor that spans many rows of crop, with the tractor driving forward at an exact pace designed to hurry the workers as fast as they can humanly cut and crate the crop. Adjacent to the harvesting tractor is a tractor trailer, which is filled and driven to a rail station, where the trailers are piggybacked to everywhere. Even the organic farms are huge enterprises. Tucked in among the factory farms are independent specialty farms (like Asian vegetables) on land that has been farmed by the same families for a century.
I had one acquaintance who farmed in California. He started his operation fresh out of college, and his specialty has been raising miniature vegetables on one acre of land. He cultivated a demand for his produce among the expensive restaurants in the San Francisco Bay area. A friend in my community makes $$$$ by selling garden flowers to local florists. Her garden is just her regular-sized urban lot, plus her elderly neighbor's back yard - maybe 1/4-acre at the most. Maybe you can conjure up a vision of your specialty, and envision who would want it (think: rich people, who would also pay $$$$ for your really good chicken and duck eggs). In addition to goodsamaritan's good business-plan spreadsheet idea, remember that success strikes at the right place in the right time, so be there when it strikes. I have started two successful businesses by finding a trend that sounded like it would make a fun business, then working my day job while I got the business up and running.
-
I don't think it's even possible to make a reasonable living at farming anymore, unless you inherit a huge acreage and are willing to grow a subsidized commodity crop. I work in the agricultural sector as a consultant, and 90%+ of the farmers I know who make a living do so largely by having second or even third jobs off-farm to augment their meager farm incomes. Having seen so many negative balance sheets, I marvel at why anyone would want to go into farming.
Because not everyone is a gullible shmuch like the majority of farmers who utilize unsound practices.
For gods sakes to even qualify for subsidies you are required to manifest your land into a negative zone of death and destruction, of pestilence and decay. It is not an option for the subsidized farmer, it is the very rule of law.
Of fucking course they have to work off the farm, they are growing crops that cost more money to grow than they yield. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are competing in sheer numbers of acres, ever 1 acre gets you another check from the government. Every acre of corn, rice, wheat and soy gives you another check. You rent your neighbors field, obliterate the ecology with our most sophisticated technology like we did in Vietnam and you get more checks. So you can fix your tractor. Or buy another field.
I met a guy last summer. He was a corn husker, was his whole life, until 2 years ago, they bought a robot tractor. They farm 4000+ acres.
Everyone is going to look back and they are going to wish they did more. Some day there really will be regrets.
-
We have a little hippie town near here full of burnouts from the D.C. rat race. They move to Floyd thinking they can start a little organic farm and live off the land, maybe make a little money....and as you already know, they fail hard, every one of them. Oh well. Their failures help keep the local organic farming supply guy in business. LOL
Where is that? Virginia? Last time I checked a lot of that good country is the highest priced of any state, including Hawaii.
You guys don't know. Organic farming is highly profitable, so much so that you probably wouldn't even need the money you make to pay for anything other than bills and taxes. Food is life. The majority of you guys in my observation fail to grasp the allure of the unknown potential there is for this planet.
Like you guys are talking about good food like per say food x 2 or food x 5. But I don't hear anyone talking Purple Cows.
I have been trying to tell you guys I am pretty sure soon after I joined this forum. Purple cows are the only hope for the planet.
-
You guys don't know. Organic farming is highly profitable, so much so that you probably wouldn't even need the money you make to pay for anything other than bills and taxes.
Just to be clear, the farmers I work with are not commodity growers. I work mostly with grass farmers, and to a lesser extent organic fruit and veg growers. These are the people who are (supposedly) doing everything right. Management intensive grazing, stocking to extend the grazing season, using breeds with excellent feed-conversion ratios, using perennial polycultures and companion planting, compost and compost tea rather than synthetic fertilizers, etc. They still can't make money.
The few exceptions are the ones who manage to carve out a niche market for themselves, like using hoop houses so they can be the first to bring a particular product to market each season or focusing on novelty varieties of foods. Even then their incomes are marginal. They might net $15,000-$20,000 per year per proprietor after investing 80+ hours per week over their growing season. If they have health insurance at all it's a very high deductible plan, which means a serious illness or injury will be financially ruinous. They also have no retirement savings, and some of them can't even afford to eat the food they grow because they so desperately need the cash to pay bills. I've met more than a few farmers who grow high-end organic vegetables or raise high-end meats who are on food stamps.
Commercial farming is not an entrepreneurial venture I'd go into right now. Maybe someday when people are ready to accept food prices that are 2x or 3x what they are today, but not right now.
-
I wonder how much Joel Salatin at Polyface Farms makes.
-
I've often wondered that myself. He's an interesting case, as he has several decent selling books out and gets primo speaker fees. It wouldn't surprise me if more than half his annual income is from off-farm ventures like writing and speaking.
-
I've often wondered that myself. He's an interesting case, as he has several decent selling books out and gets primo speaker fees. It wouldn't surprise me if more than half his annual income is from off-farm ventures like writing and speaking.
I would guess 80-90% is non-farm. But that's not a niche every farmer can get into. Boutique food products are the answer for the short term. Heirloom this and permaculture that and such.
-
I don't think it's even possible to make a reasonable living at farming anymore, unless you inherit a huge acreage and are willing to grow a subsidized commodity crop. I work in the agricultural sector as a consultant, and 90%+ of the farmers I know who make a living do so largely by having second or even third jobs off-farm to augment their meager farm incomes. Having seen so many negative balance sheets, I marvel at why anyone would want to go into farming.
So, this is presumably a scam?:-
http://permacultureapprentice.com/how-to-make-a-living-from-a-1-5-acre-market-garden/ (http://permacultureapprentice.com/how-to-make-a-living-from-a-1-5-acre-market-garden/)
it is so difficult to tell, these days and I have to constantly read reviews and forums to weed out the frauds. I read online about such gimmicks as making an "underground"(ie self-heating) greenhouse for just 300 dollars etc. My main goal is just to have enough food to feed myself and any animals I have, but I would love to do more, if there was any real chance. There has been some stuff online about "beyond organic" where farms do not bother with the useless organic label but instead use techniques like feeding real, natural raw food to their animals etc. etc. Is high-end farming of this sort, using rare breeds perhaps worth it?
-
Sorry, I did not read the whole article before posting my previous comment. I will admit that, in Austria, there are a very few dirt-poor types among indigenous Austrians, and a large part of those happen to be farmers. That said, some Austrian farmers seem to do very nicely. The great thing about Austrian law is that they apparently do not bother people who just have a small farm and use it to feed themselves or sell just a few eggs and the like etc. at the local farmers' market.It is only when it becomes a large enough business that one has to comply with all the laws and regulations. I have seen some farms regularly selling products like liqueurs (at 20 euros for a 0.35 litre bottle!) or raw fish roe for hefty sums (I forget which-but in a landlocked country, genuinely raw fish roe is almost unheard of). From what I have learnt so far, it is a big mistake to try to sell cheaply if you are a small business, as you cannot possibly undercut the big companies who want to sell vast quantities of mostly low-quality goods. The best way to go is to sell very high quality items at a large profit-margin per item.
-
1 minor point:- Even Dr Atkins did not make any real money from his books. Apparently, his biggest profits came from selling supplements. Same with Aajonus, his books did not make much but he made most of his cash via attending primal potlucks and doing iridology exams and making speeches at such events.
-
1 major point: Saladin has a healthy sense of optimism. Successful business people in any field of endeavor are optimistic, even amidst great setbacks.
The original poster is drowning in pessimism. He would have to eliminate most of his pessimism - keeping a healthy sense of skepticism - and learn how to see the bright side. Then, he can start a successful farming enterprise. When he learns to create optimism, he will see his paleoprimal village spring to life around him.
-
Optimism comes from having a solid plan.
-
Optimism creates a flexible plan that survives the hard work and the setbacks.
-
It takes enough experience/wisdom to know a good plan to begin with.
-
It takes enough experience/wisdom to know a good plan to begin with.
That sounds like an excuse to avoid taking action.
I prefer the "Fail Better" model:
Ever tried, ever failed.
No matter!
Try again, fail again...
Fail better!
-
That sounds like an excuse to avoid taking action.
I prefer the "Fail Better" model:
Ever tried, ever failed.
No matter!
Try again, fail again...
Fail better!
I would feel extremely guilty if I advised a friend to try to make a living from farming right now. There are 1000 failures or "barely-hanging-on" types for every solid success. And we're talking about people who put hundreds of thousands of dollars and many years of their lives into it.
-
I would feel extremely guilty if I advised a friend to try to make a living from farming right now. There are 1000 failures or "barely-hanging-on" types for every solid success. And we're talking about people who put hundreds of thousands of dollars and many years of their lives into it.
I'm actually starting to live on a family scale farm of about 60x60 mts. I'm not investing anything cause i dont want to loose. Just buying chickens and metal wire. I see a brillant future doing this. Time will tell. Need advice!
-
1 major point: Saladin has a healthy sense of optimism. Successful business people in any field of endeavor are optimistic, even amidst great setbacks.
The original poster is drowning in pessimism. He would have to eliminate most of his pessimism - keeping a healthy sense of skepticism - and learn how to see the bright side. Then, he can start a successful farming enterprise. When he learns to create optimism, he will see his paleoprimal village spring to life around him.
Screw you eveheart, that's you you're talking about, not me, your are simply reflecting yourself into how you seem me, in reality I am the least pessimistic, most optimistic person who posts on this entire forum.
I am drowning in pain. I am suffering from things I dare not write here. It is not only humiliating, I am experiencing more pain than I have even been able to write hardly anything or really express myself to more than just a few people, one of which who wanted to help me took his own life, really ever since the winter of 2013.
I have PTSD pretty bad, I am finally starting to feel like myself again.
-
Just to be clear, the farmers I work with are not commodity growers. I work mostly with grass farmers, and to a lesser extent organic fruit and veg growers. These are the people who are (supposedly) doing everything right. Management intensive grazing, stocking to extend the grazing season, using breeds with excellent feed-conversion ratios, using perennial polycultures and companion planting, compost and compost tea rather than synthetic fertilizers, etc. They still can't make money.
The few exceptions are the ones who manage to carve out a niche market for themselves, like using hoop houses so they can be the first to bring a particular product to market each season or focusing on novelty varieties of foods. Even then their incomes are marginal. They might net $15,000-$20,000 per year per proprietor after investing 80+ hours per week over their growing season. If they have health insurance at all it's a very high deductible plan, which means a serious illness or injury will be financially ruinous. They also have no retirement savings, and some of them can't even afford to eat the food they grow because they so desperately need the cash to pay bills. I've met more than a few farmers who grow high-end organic vegetables or raise high-end meats who are on food stamps.
Commercial farming is not an entrepreneurial venture I'd go into right now. Maybe someday when people are ready to accept food prices that are 2x or 3x what they are today, but not right now.
I am a rogue farmer. I am not an organic farmer. I am a nature farmer.
Eric what would you consult me to do? What is there out there for me? What is it everybody here is doing besides eating good food that is so worth while? What is there that I can do that is worth doing? Are we to be mere pawns who toil for pay so we can hog at the trough? I don't understand where the conceptual misunderstanding ends or beguines, but to me the majority of us humans are facing slavery, these corporations and countries are becoming slave nations and the suffering to me seems insurmountable
Tell me Eveheart, who supports you? Do you have family who loves and supports you and cares about the things that you care about? Don't judge people. Because you don't know what shit they have been through.
Sorry, back to Eric, so, how do these farmers live? 15-20k? Sounds horrible right? That's terrible they make nothing!
Except they have all their food at their house. Except they have their whole livelihood where they live. Except their lives are rich and meaningful. Except they get to be there with their children and work with them and love them and they don't have to go out into the world of lies and slavery and ruin and they don't have top send their children to the prisons they call schools like packs of dogs sent to the pound in one big cage.
Except when you have a farm, you don't need lots of money, because almost everything you need to have a really good life, is where you live.
They all make choices. How like Americans are these farmers. We have been sold lies. All the farmers I know buy lies, everyone I know buys lies.
I have never seen a farm at peace, I have never seen a farm in balance, hell I have never seen an environment that was natural or in any kind of harmony or balance but ruin.
I have read and heard and watched videos about good farms and I have done good farming myself so I know it exists.
You know one of the roads I could have, perhaps should have walked down is working for some of those people, seeking out the best farms. I mean that was part of the plan, you know but, didn't have a vacation in 7 years.
Eric, you know though perhaps you are onto something. You know what on average the least profitable thing ranchers do on their ranches is? The least profitable thing people do on ranches is farm.
-
What do you want to buy besides food? What are you missing out on in life that 15-20k a year and living a good life and growing the food that you eat can't cover?
A farm can be way more profitable than that, some farms are gangbusters profitable, are you guys even aware of what's going on in the world right now at all? Farming is big business. Organic farming is big business. If organic farming wasn't profitable, it wouldn't exist except as anything more than a hobby. Bhutan and Denmark are becoming entirely organic countries. In Russia if a citizen wants to farm but has no assets the government supplies him with 4 acres to grow whatever he wishes in just about any manner he wishes. In New Zealand farmers are on average the wealthiest citizens, more so than doctors or bankers. Is this merely because New Zealand has a better climate than other countries? Only partially because it's really just hard to dispute that Kiwi farmers are a lot better at growing a lot of food without a lot of labor than most of the farmers in most of the world.
I mean did you guys know that NZ was and may still be supplying the majority of McDonnalds Hamburger meat with grass fed beef because they have the most profitable way of growing beef in the world and can thus sell it cheapest.
But then you say, "no no rogue farmer, it is clearly because of their climate that they are able to do that". I don't think so. It is not the climate in NZ that makes Kiwis better farmers, rather it was the climate in NZ that influenced NZ farmers to be better farmers. We can near or even match or surpass their production and cost efficiency right here in the states, we can do it just about as good as anyone else can if not better.
And the really important secret to America being the best country for ecological farming to blossom is that more than almost any country I believe, America is underutilized. America is a feast of a famine, the good has been ushered out of the countryside and while the property values have skyrocketed from the housing bubble, the utilization of the land has plummeted in many large regions and even on the best soils in America, rent is reasonable.
Ugh UGh I feel like this forum is so intellectually limited from what it should be. Like there is a lot more important shit than raw meat, there is a lot more truth out there that has to be learned and invented and there are a whole heck of lies that need to be expunged.
Like just think about how much important shit could be happening right now if people would get off their high horses and their white citadels and their stipulations and fears and actually started working together and healing each other.
I really am a huge optimist and I have believed all along I can overcome my pain, my trauma, but this adventure of healing, this is a struggle.
Going about this, as I have alone, I never meant to and I have been trying to form connections all along. But it's really hard. Sometimes it honestly feels like an evil spirit follows me to spiritually undermine me and those that I love.
From as long as I can remember I believed in Great Spirit and the power of the universe, I am not a christian, and though I follow the teachings of christ, I am not compelled to believe how christians ask me to believe but I'll tell you it really does become hard to believe the devil is not afoot.
-
This will no doubt sound odd but I thought I should add that when I was in very ill-health years ago pre-RPD diet, pain was the only reason why I was able to eventually regain my health in the end. You see, the slow but steady inflammation from wheat and dairy over the years had resulted in my brain and body being so flooded with extra hormones that I was incapable of any will or drive whatsoever. But the agonising mental and physical pain forced me constantly seek out solutions, however far-out, until I eventually sorted things out. Granted though, my experience may well have nothing whatsoever to do with yours.
-
This will no doubt sound odd but I thought I should add that when I was in very ill-health years ago pre-RPD diet, pain was the only reason why I was able to eventually regain my health in the end. You see, the slow but steady inflammation from wheat and dairy over the years had resulted in my brain and body being so flooded with extra hormones that I was incapable of any will or drive whatsoever. But the agonising mental and physical pain forced me constantly seek out solutions, however far-out, until I eventually sorted things out. Granted though, my experience may well have nothing whatsoever to do with yours.
I was raised as a "free range" country child and was very healthy until I was moved to the city and besieged by what to my mind could easily be likened to biblical pestilences. My every experience dealing with civilization feels like grinding gears trying to drive a hard to shift stick shift when you don't know how to drive stick. To my mind life in the city is a life of humiliation, pollution, danger and despair. I was told I needed to be taught in schools so that I could be educated and be hired so that I could buy a house and feed myself, but this made no sense to me because my grandma had a house where we could all live cause there were 16 bedrooms by the river and there was more food than what we could eat right where we lived in the wild and 17 acres of field and valuable trees but instead we moved to the city and for the past 23 years i have seen debt and poverty and been hungry and I don't have a family that supports me or anyone to really talk about problems.
The real world is too horrible for me to be able to stomach every day of every year. I am not immune to vice but from my observation I am far less tainted by it than most. I truly believe that things are going far worse than they ever have gone before but I also believe that there is so much potential for so more good things to happen than ever before. I think my biggest problem with my relationship with humanity so far, is it is so hard to find mentors, and thus far, almost totally impossible to find collaboration. I have encountered moreover, resistance, betrayal, predation. Perhaps this is why I have always stressed my belief and in agreement with Aajonus, that humans are truly carnivores like wolves and dogs and it makes so much sense that our behavior is so similar.
Gtfo my way Cherimoya, I've got a world to save.
-
There are a few old sages, a couple young mavericks, who wrote books that I had the miraculous good fortune to read because of some very dear friends of mine I made along the way who helped to lead me down that road. I believed like many here expressed that humanity was truly bad, irredeemable, polluted, not born sinners but born into a world of endless sin. And I didn't want to be here. but I didn't go against myself because I was curious and I wanted to know what would happen next when I got out of the prison I was in. and then I saw that there was so much more and I started to see this big gigantic beautiful new zeitgeist in my head and it's an endless mural of the most beautiful place you have ever been and looks like nothing you have ever seen or imagined beyond anything that exists but a few places on earth and it's a plan and it's a puzzle and it's probably around 100 encyclopedias worth of accumulated knowledge from when I started studying dinosaurs at the library in the city 23 years ago, exploring nature wherever I was for the entirety of my life, until I started studying organic farming when I was 18 when the seed in my brain for a superior reality first sprouted. And when I was 21 I started out building this reality by myself with just 3 goats and it was laughed at by most at first but I grew or foraged all my own food except every week I bought half a pound of grass fed butter, a small bag of potatoes a small bag of onions and some garlic. Six years later and me and my girls really started rollin with it and we were really started to be making a lot of food and the dream was truly taking form in a big way. But it's really fuckin lonely when you feel like your the only one. When the people in your life appreciate you but they don't see the scars, they don't appreciate what is underneath, they do not even dare to ponder the things that truly matter! They direct their interests in trivia, politics, vice and obscure pseudo talk therapy and giving the bulk of their energy away to their employers. They couldn't see the good works I wrought, they were blind to it or perhaps they wanted to believe, but could not because they cannot peer out into the dark, for it is fearful to peer out into the darkness. They could not see the light for the darkness has clouded their eyes and their brains. Like it was etched in my mind that there would be others... Where are you guys...
(http://www.ironmanmode.com/wp-content/uploads/Cosmo-Candle-FF7.png)
-
A couple articles to reinforce the statements I'd made earlier:
What nobody told me about small farming: I can't make a living (http://www.salon.com/2015/02/10/what_nobody_told_me_about_small_farming_i_cant_make_a_living/). By Jaclyn Moyer
Don't let your children grow up to be farmers (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/opinion/sunday/dont-let-your-children-grow-up-to-be-farmers.html?_r=0). By Bren Smith
In response to one of Geoff's earlier comments, it's true that most writers don't make much money off their books. Books often serve as advertising that attracts participants to their workshops or classes, or attracts event organizers to tap them as speakers. These can be quite profitable. We brought Michael Pollan to my university a couple years back for a 2 hour talk and to meet with students during their classes for a couple days, and he charged something in the range of $20,000-$30,000 for the event. That's not bad. String a few of those together over the course of a year and you've got a nice living. Another friend of mine, Chris Martenson of PeakProsperity.com, charges $10,000 as his base price for giving a talk at an event. That's not too bad either.
And regarding permaculture, while I think the principles of permaculture are, in theory, quite useful, in practice permaculture is largely a fraud. All of the permaculture farms I've visited are nothing more than glorified organic farms, and they rely on huge amounts of free (aka exploited) labor in the form of interns to keep them viable. All of the permaculture farms I've visited require huge labor inputs to deliver low food output, and would never survive if they had to generate revenue by selling their product on a per-pound basis without getting free labor from interns and selling Permaculture Design Certificates to subsidize their agricultural operation.
-
So, it is impossible for permaculture farms to produce high yields per acre? Well, I am not that bothered re creating a small farm. My idea was mainly to eventually cancel out almost all my annual food-costs, with the animals largely more or less feeding each other, and then (perhaps or perhaps not) gradually build up until I could sell a few very high quality, animal and plant foods(mostly animal) to just a couple of nearby restaurants. These would likely taste far better than even the grassfed meat variety.There is a wonderful restaurant in the area near the Viennese Dechantlacke swimming-pond, where a farming family basically fill the restaurant-menus with their produce and they even had an excellent homemade beer(probably craft beer, not bacteria-rich real ale, but still raw). The way to go is for farms to bypass the supermarkets and directly sell to the consumers while still maintaining high quality produce.
I admit I was already considering using websites like WWOOF to get hold of 1 or 2 labourers for free so I could go on short holidays every so often, but I genuinely intended to teach them something useful without them paying for anything. -[ -[ I suppose it is currently a waste of time trying to start up a microfarm in an extremely large large 2nd floor flat without a garden unless I am planning on breeding rodents and the like for food.... l) l) ;D Then again, guinea-pigs are a delicacy and national dish in Peru....!
-
I admit I was already considering using websites like WWOOF to get hold of 1 or 2 labourers for free so I could go on short holidays...
I had a gardening "buddy" for that. She had a garden similar to mine. When one was away, the other kept up the watering and harvesting. We also exchanged cat-sitting chores for each other. We were the best of friends, even though the only thing we had in common was our passion for gardening.
-
So, it is impossible for permaculture farms to produce high yields per acre?
I won't go so far as to say it's impossible, but I have yet to physically visit a permaculture farm that does it. Maybe there's one somewhere out there that can pull it off.
-
I won't go so far as to say it's impossible, but I have yet to physically visit a permaculture farm that does it. Maybe there's one somewhere out there that can pull it off.
Maybe an aquaculture operation, that is exquisitely well-designed. A dirt farm? Doubt it.
-
Maybe an aquaculture operation, that is exquisitely well-designed. A dirt farm? Doubt it.
What do you mean by dirt farm? You mean a farm made of dirt? In nature there is no such thing as dirt. Dirt just means a substance which makes clothing dirty. Dirt farms don't exist.
-
I don't know exactly what to make of the majority of these permaculture farms. I am not aware of many who are "really doing it" but they are definitely out there.
Permaculture farms can vastly out yield conventional agriculture but will almost always require far more labor, though ever enterprise requires different amounts and some require very little, but on some farms just harvesting and processing is of course a gargantuan operation. To make a profit selling food at a premium price, perhaps as much as twice the amount of time or more would be spent marketing the goods instead of time spent in farm labor.
Most of the permaculture farms I have seen aren't even glorified organic farms, they are more like homesteads full of exotics and hardy perennials that is much lower cost and much more sustainable than a typical residential dwelling. It seems like most of them don't get much farther than that, but it is by definition, a permaculture farm, and I would argue that even the worst of them offer a better way of life than can be found in almost any other profession.
I think the problem of these farms is a cultural American problem. I think we are a very incredibly spoiled nation and one that vampirizes the poor, making it difficult for those who work long hard hours their whole lives to ever get ahead, to ever really make something of themselves. I see the farms and I see spoiled shallow people generally, they are doing not what is best or what will make them more money but what they want to do. They are like giant kids in giant sandboxes and they like to do what is fashionable for their family and their neighbors. If your neighbor buys an eight wheel tractor, you want one too. If your neighbor buys horses, you want horses too. Four wheelers. Lawns and lawnmowers. White picket fences. Bigger cows, bigger corn, more poisonous poison. Organic farmers fall into the exact same trapings.
You said 15-20k a year per person? Honestly anyone doing that good and can put that much money in their pocket at the end of the year is doing damn good.
We aren't here to make a lot of money, we are here for a purpose but we forgot what it was. Either way plenty of permaculture farms make a lot of money. Joel was claiming he makes around 1000 bucks an acre a few years ago and he was charging 2000 bucks to speak. Their farm is their cash cow. What he doesn't tell you I heard is that he also has a brother who has his own family who also all help and live on the farm, though I do not know that this is true. Joel claims they can grow beef cheaper than anyone else in Virginia. Why is this? Because Polyface farm operates 5 different businesses on the same acreage their cows graze and they stock their cows more than quintuple the local average. http://www.polyfacefarms.com/ (http://www.polyfacefarms.com/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie8Hhe_PVIU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie8Hhe_PVIU)
-
Many VERY smart people have tried and failed. Most of us are older, more experienced, and every bit as smart as you. Prove me wrong if you can by beating the odds.
-
Permaculture farms can vastly out yield conventional agriculture but will almost always require far more labor...
Even setting their need for labor aside, I'm not sure I buy your initial point. I have yet to visit a permaculture farm that can even approach the pound-of-food-per-acre yield that conventional agriculture delivers. Every permaculture farm I've ever visited has proven to be a very low yield system that also requires very high labor inputs, much higher than conventional agricultural systems. If you know of a permie farm that bucks this trend, I'd love it if you'd share their name or a link to their site.