Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: jonahterrynn on August 10, 2017, 01:22:23 pm
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Hey guys,
I've been vegan for well over a year now, almost 2. I first heard about raw meat eating from Sv3rige, because vegan gains did a video on him.
This was about two weeks ago, and I actaully was the top comment on vegan gains video. I was thanking him for making me vegan over 1 year.
I watched the video and thought it was interesting what Sv3rige said. Next I heard about Milk Jar and started watching his videos, which made too much sense. They both looked so healthy and had amazing stories. Both had been vegan before.
I found out there was a debate coming, between the 3 people so I tuned in.
Heres my story.
It wouldn't let me post the videos here so I encourage you to go check them out by copying the link and adding a www dot (.). like www.
youtu.be/yeGIJTPtFw4
(sv3rige and milk jar ended up both commenting and giving advice which was very helpful.)
youtube.com/watch?v=kAVHBbG27mI
(breaking veganism with .75 lb organic pasture raised grass fed, RAW steak)
Theres quite a few questions I still have which I outlined in the videos.
I'd love some answers as I'm clearly very interested in this ultimate diet.
Either let me know here or on the video comments, thanks.
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No offence, but could you just cite the various questions you have on here in a few sentences so we can answer them? It's just that we are likely to have heard all the various pro-vegan/anti-vegan arguments countless times before. Thanks!
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Thanks and yes!
1. are the claims in AVs books over the top?
-I've seen people say that on there
2. If so which ones should I be aware of?
3. What is the benefit of raw meat over cooked meat, enzymes? I'm still having a hard time understanding.
4. Are oats okay? I saw in Weston Prices book that the Swedish people thrived off dairy and oats?
5. Tyler Durden (love the name) I'd love to read/hear your experience of benefits from the switch. Do you have a post or maybe you could write out a quick outline. (I asked to hear other peoples stories in the vid)
6. Youtubers like Milk jar and Sv3rige say that its recommendable to eat raw butter with your meat. This sound good to you guys?
7. Theres so much conflict about parasites and bacteria. Is there an easy way to identify if the meat I'm gonna eat is okay?
8. I'm having a hard time with the consistency. Is this something I get used to?
9. I've now had about 3 raw meat meals total, all today. Its now the end of the day, and I'm having a little diarrhea. Is this normal?
10. Sources to learn more would be great. So far I know and have Weston A Prices book, and both AV books. I'll start reading them tomorrow.
Side note:
After breaking my veganism with the raw steak, I actually got more hungry. My stomach started rumbling and my body seemed to want more, but didn't want to eat more because it also grossed me out as far as texture, taste wasn't awful.
I also had a WAY better workout today, then even just yesterday when I was vegan.
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Lots to add, will answer all questions in full over the course of the day.....
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Thanks, really appreciate it.
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1. are the claims in AVs books over the top?
-I've seen people say that on there
2. If so which ones should I be aware of?
1) Aajonus appealed to a mainly Liberal, New-Agey crowd in the Malibu, Los Angeles area. Such types have conditions such as Cherokee Grandmother Syndrome and an absurd belief in the Noble-Savage theory, so were inevitably the kind foolish enough to believe in Aajonus' tall tales about his Native-American Chieftain "friend". Aajonus also peddled the absurd tale of how he came to eat raw meat, his 40-days-and-40-nights in the desert story with him ending up being fed raw meat by some wild coyotes. You can see traces of ancient mythology in the latter tale(ie Jesus' own 40-day/40-nights in the wilderness, and the feral child/Romulus-and-Remus myth). He needed followers and diets are often cultish/religious in tone(just look at the vegan movement for comparison).So, nothing to worry about, just a bit of PR.
His claims re diet are mostly correct. His points re enzymes , raw vs cooked are correct. I would disagree re his view that prefrozen food is 25% damaged compared to nonfrozen food, but would agree, however, that some slight damage is done, with increasing damage done over time. His stance re "high-meat" was 100% correct, too, and proven by science, so I was a fool to doubt him on this issue in the 1st 3 years of going rawpalaeo. The trouble with Aajonus is that he wanted a wider audience so included a lot of raw foods in his diet which were more palatable to former cooked-foodists starting a RVAF diet, but which often caused issues such as raw dairy, raw veggie-juice, raw coconut cream/oil and similiar processed raw foods which were not available to humans in palaeolithic times.
3:- Benefits of raw vs cooked are:-
a) Cooking creates heat-derived toxins of many kinds, such as AGEs/advanced glycation end products etc., which are heavily implicated in all sorts of age-related health-problems such as arthritis/alzheimer's/dementia as well as auto-immune diseases such as diabetes, multiple sclerosis, among many other kinds of conditions.Basically, such heat-derived toxins cause inflammation and inflammation is the key condition behind many/most human health-problems.
b) Enzymes. Cooked-foodists scream that enzymes in raw foods anyway get destroyed in the stomach so that they are useless and that the human body anyway produces enough enzymes to digest the cooked foods it absorbs. Not quite correct, or "nearly right" as American teachers like to say. According to the WAPF, enzymes present in raw foods predigest the raw foods for the 30 minutes or so that the raw food stays in the upper stomach - naturally, once the raw food enters the lower stomach, the enzymes are destroyed. One thing that cooked-foodists cannot easily explain away is that many older people on long-term cooked food diets often need extra enzyme supplements as their own organs are by then far too depleted after years of unhealthy cooked diets to produce enough enzymes to digest their cooked food properly.
c) Proteins/fats/carbs are not altered. Cooking also produces traces of trans-fats which cause further problems. Industrial cooking produces even higher amounts of such trans-fats.
d) Bacteria. Bacteria are critical to things like mood-levels in the brain, which is why "high-meat" is so useful. Bacteria are critical to digestion as well, among many other functions. Animals in the wild eat far more bacteria-rich foods than even many RVAFers do, which is a good thing.
4) Oats are NOT OK, being grains. Weston-Price had some useful things to say, and undoubtedly his subjects were healthier than the city-folk of his day, but he exaggerated the Noble-Savage theory theme far too much.
5) Like most Internet-users, I chose a username of someone I would like to be but, sadly, am quite the opposite of in some ways!
6) Unless you are sure you have no issues with raw dairy, don't touch it. Issues with raw dairy are THE No1 issue RVAFers have when starting such a diet. Raw veggie-juice is the No-2. Then there are other potentially a myriad other possible issues depending on individual factors. For example, I always get appalling stomach-aches if I eat any raw coconut oil, and soon get yellow
diarrhea if I eat any raw suet.
7) Ignore issues re parasites and bacteria. Parasites are very rare in the West because farmers, even organic farmers, routinely feed their animals on deworming medicines. I got parasites(tapeworms) once in the 15+ years I've been going RVAF(from horsemeat).These were harmless and I only got rid of them after some months because of they were detaching themselves in bits from my arse and were quite smelly. By contrast, I have been mostly eating raw wild game/raw wildcaught seafood for my animal-food-intake most years of being RVAF and never once had an issue with parasites from them.
Bacteria are essential to health:-
https://qz.com/993258/dirt-has-a-microbiome-and-it-may-double-as-an-antidepressant/ (https://qz.com/993258/dirt-has-a-microbiome-and-it-may-double-as-an-antidepressant/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis)
Other major RVAF diet-related concepts are :-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis)
http://jamesclear.com/the-beginners-guide-to-intermittent-fasting (http://jamesclear.com/the-beginners-guide-to-intermittent-fasting)
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More useful threads:-
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/ (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/)
One of the threads, on how to ease into a RVAF diet, should answer some of your other questions.
Also read Guy-Claude Burger's La Guerre du Cru, available from Iguana as I recall. Very useful author, whose dietary philosophy many long-term RVAFers feel is more in line with their long-term experiences of going RVAF.
My testimonial seems to have disappeared. I need to at some stage revamp/update the rawpaleodiet.com website and write that RVAF diet e-book within the next 6 months or so.
One tip:- What I and others have done was to look at every post in every forum dealing with RVAF diets in some way. Granted this would take a LONG time, but I found I got many answers to questions I would never have gotten round to asking, otherwise. You see, most people have a mania for placing their hopes and dreams(and lives) on one person. This is displayed by people voting for a President or a Prime Minister or Council Leader, Leader of the Church/Armed-Forces or whatever. The fact is that, according to Max Stirner, people like being slaves to 1 or a few individuals, it's built into human nature. The trouble is that no human being can be perfect, as perfection is not found in Nature. Plus, one person's experiences re health, diet or whatever may have no relevance whatsoever to someone else's situation/health/experience. Now, granted, since we are all also flawed as individuals, it would also be stupid to rely solely on one's own instincts and experiences - but, the point is, that we should find out as much as possible what other RVAFers have experienced, and correlate it with our own experiences in order to improve things in our own way. For example, I find I thrive if I include some raw wildcaught seafood regularly in my diet(10%+), but do not do that well if 80-100% of my raw-animal-food-intake comes from the sea. I find I do not absorb raw liver or raw suet or raw tropical fruits like mango and papaya very well, they justquickly go through me mostly unabsorbed. Others are different, some thrive on raw dairy unlike me, or prefer raw coconut oil or whatever.
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I think he was asking about bacteria and parasites in the meat he was about to consume.
There is absolutely 0 bacteria in a healthy flesh. I've searched Internet all over including all available pubmeds etc. and there are no proofs of it. Meat can only be contaminated with bacteria during butchering by touching it with hands, unsanitized knife, and cutting board.
The only parasite I'm aware of that could be in the pastured animal is a tape worm cyst. It is relatively big and would be hard to miss.
Organs might have additional parasites. I personally observed tiny lungworms inside sheep lungs.
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There is absolutely 0 bacteria in a healthy flesh. I've searched Internet all over including all available pubmeds etc. and there are no proofs of it. Meat can only be contaminated with bacteria during butchering by touching it with hands, unsanitized knife, and cutting board.
Err, this is very extreme RVAF diet dogma, and certainly not supported by the majority of RVAFers!
As regards parasites and raw wild game, wild game carcasses are routinely described as being infested with parasites, yet, after years of eating mostly raw wild game/raw wild caught seafood, I never got parasites from them, leading me to believe that either the butchers of the carcasses knew exactly which organs to throw away(quite likely) or that most parasites in other species are adapted to those very species and therefore die when introduced into other species such as humans(another very likely possibility).
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I'm not sure where you are seeing dogma. I'm simply stating medical facts based on research that's publicly available.
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I'm not sure where you are seeing dogma. I'm simply stating medical facts based on research that's publicly available.
No, you are spouting dogma. Here is ample data to counter the notion that we are all sterile:-
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/urine-not-sterile-and-neither-rest-you (https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/urine-not-sterile-and-neither-rest-you)
http://today.uconn.edu/2011/01/how-bacteria-keep-us-healthy/ (http://today.uconn.edu/2011/01/how-bacteria-keep-us-healthy/)
Basically, bacteria are vital for human health. It is the environment, not the bacteria, that is the main issue, 90% of the time.
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I always thought Tyler Durden was your real name. Never realized it was the name of a character from the movie Fight Club.
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I always thought Tyler Durden was your real name. Never realized it was the name of a character from the movie Fight Club.
If I were 100% honest of sorts, my username would more ideally be Raistlin Majere, the Dalai Lama, Pope Benedictine XVIth, Judas Iscariot, Mesrine, Bonnot etc. if my health had been better since birth....
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About bacteria or no bacteria in flesh, the exact same discussion between both of you, YS and TD, has already occurred here and following posts in November! (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/sushi-unhealthier-than-you-may-think/msg138085/#msg138085)
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TD,
The subject specifically is bacteria in muscles. There are no known proofs I've seen that show there is bacteria in a healthy muscle tissue.
All your links you ever provided do not show any. NONE. So please stop with your dogma accusations. When I see a proof I will gladly change my mind. Until then there is no bacteria in a healthy muscle tissue.
Your first link is about UT. UT topologically is a surface that's why bacteria can easily enter it.
Second link is about bacteria remnants found in DISEASED brains.
There are no known bacteria in the bloodstream that do not provoke immune response.
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Thank you all so much for the info.
I have another question. I have some grass fed organic pasture meat I want to store in the fridge for a few days. Do I put it on a plate, Ive heard glass container as well. What is the best method
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Right now its all in vacuum seal packs
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I disagree with Aajonus on his views on SALT.
I try to get the best salt and variety as I can.
Maybe it is because I had problems with fungus / mold in my environment / old house I had to move, and consuming more SALT was integral to healing my fungus / mold issue.
I also disagree with Aajonus on parasites.
I am well armed and deadly when parasites give me or my family problems.
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I have another question. I have some grass fed organic pasture meat I want to store in the fridge for a few days. Do I put it on a plate, Ive heard glass container as well. What is the best method
See my photos here:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/hanging-meat-in-your-fridge/msg118738
(http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/hanging-meat-in-your-fridge/msg118738/#msg118738)
Hanging meat in your fridge (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/hanging-meat-in-your-fridge/msg118738/#msg118738)
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I checked the last thread Iguana referred to among other sources and it seems that normal, healthy bacteria DO exist in blood and brains of healthy humans:-
http://www.rense.com/general77/dblooder.htm (http://www.rense.com/general77/dblooder.htm)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC154583/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC154583/)
http://www.virology.ws/2013/06/28/bacteria-in-our-brains/ (http://www.virology.ws/2013/06/28/bacteria-in-our-brains/)
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Right now its all in vacuum seal packs
Normally once you take meat out of the sealed vacuum packs it gets exposed to bacteria and starts aging rapidly. Unless you are trying to intentionally age it, I would leave it sealed for as long as possible.
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I have a different experience. Anaerobic bacteria develop in the absence of air. These are the ones you don't want to mess with. I leave my food in sealed containers no longer than five or so days and then open and hang it in the fridge. Spraying it with vinegar will knock down the growth of aerobic bacteria on the outside, of preferred to do so.
Fat can be a different story. It too will get a bad smell if left in a sealed bag for over two weeks,, and that's about my limit with keeping it in a sealed vacuum bag. The problem with exposing it to air before then, is it oxidizes. That has been a contested point here, some believing that fat doesn't oxidize much in the fridge. I always recommend that one then simply taste fresh with old and then make up your mind. Over the many years, I've developed a sense of taste for fresh over oxidized.
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Good point. Very true. I was referring to the factory sealed vacuum packs sold commercially in the stores. That stuff keeps for weeks if the seal isn't broken. They are sealed with nitrogen or something to keep the bacteria from growing. Not just plain air like you would do at home or in a mom and pop operation which now that I think about it is very likely since he claimed it was grass fed!
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If i get meat vacuum packed in plastic, I also take it out ASAP to hang it on a hook in the fridge. Sometimes I eat some of it more or less fresh, specially the fat and liver, but I generally prefer the muscle aged and even more so in a state as in first photos in the post I linked above.