Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: MrBBQ on June 21, 2009, 05:51:01 pm
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Hey all,
May I introduce myself as a curious party, hehe...Cool forum with interesting people!
I'm living in Sheffield, United Kingdom and I've been experimenting with raw veganism and raw animal foods. I initially became interested in raw food preparation due to dental cavities, but despite various anecdotes from raw vegans, I've certainly not been successful with that approach (2 years of great effort/fasting/cleansing). Apparently, there are people who thrive solely on plants/fruits/etc., but from what I've read, that's very challenging, even in the presence of a very symbiotic GI tract and no biliary/GB/liver debris to clear away.
I've noticed some anecdotes on here asserting that teeth have strengthened with zero carbs and all animal meat/fat, which I find very interesting (it totally flies in the face of renal acid load and internal hygiene/endotoxin/mycotoxin theory). Many disease recovery programs cite that meat promotes dysbiosis of the GI tract (recommending elimination of any raw/cooked animal products) and also provides no fibre or antioxidants...I'm confused!
Nevertheless, I'm considering transitioning to eating some land (already eating sashimi+egg yolks) animal meats raw, but I'm a newbie when it comes to a safe approach. I recently had a bad experience with raw farmed salmon, which I would not like to repeat!
Does anyone know a good source in the UK for grass-fed meat? I know only one shop in my city that offers grass-fed meat (www.realmeat.co.uk), which comes from southern England.
Assuming that I use this company for my meat, what should I ask them to ensure that the flesh is safe for raw consumption (bacteria, parasites etc.)? Should the butcher be able to identify worms/larvae/eggs in muscles/organs?
Is there any marinade that destroys parasites/bacteria without denaturing the meat/fat?
Do most butchers give out free fat and bones? Is it easy to remove the marrow and then slow cook the bones for broth? Is fat difficult to chew?
Does anyone use the high vitamin fermented cod liver oil (high quality, unprocessed) and ghee as a supplement of fat-soluble vitamins (I realise ghee is cooked, but it would be the exception in a high raw diet)?
One last thing, I've heard about bacterial amines being formed on meat, especially after 2 weeks from slaughter. What does everyone consider fresh and how fresh/tender is a good compromise?
Is anyone just eating fat without all that protein? Really, I would like plenty of fat for the vitamins, but not massive amounts of protein. I also find it interesting that raw meat provides a measure of vitamin C (an antioxidant!).
I'll stop there because I'm sure I've already stretched your attention span to daydreaming point.
Any insights would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
All the best,
Scott M
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Oh, one more thing...dehydration!
Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?
Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?
As a n00b, sorry if I'm repeating past posts or blog FAQs...(!)
Scott M
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Oh, one more thing...dehydration!
Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?
Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?
As a n00b, sorry if I'm repeating past posts or blog FAQs...(!)
Scott M
This forum is blessed with the presence of the master dryer/pemmican maker; google Lex Rooker pemmican and Lex Rooker jerky for the best howto.
Or use the search function here.
Others can better answer your other questions, but google and searching this forum is still recommended.
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I've noticed some anecdotes on here asserting that teeth have strengthened with zero carbs and all animal meat/fat, which I find very interesting (it totally flies in the face of renal acid load and internal hygiene/endotoxin/mycotoxin theory).
I'm one of those who found that bone density in my jaw increased, loose teeth firmed up, gums quit bleeding, teeth that were losing enamel became hard again etc. All the conventional wisdom you read about renal overload and such is nonsense. I've been eating primarily meat and fat for many years now and my health has done nothing but improve.
Many disease recovery programs cite that meat promotes dysbiosis of the GI tract (recommending elimination of any raw/cooked animal products) and also provides no fibre or antioxidants...I'm confused!
Again, this seems to be a myth. My doctor paniced when I decided to go Zero Carb several years ago. He said that I'd face all kinds of deficiencies, my cholesterol would go off the charts, I'd be risking kidney failure, colon polyps would run rampant risking colon cancer, constant constipation due to lack of fiber, and a host of other problems. None of it occurred and in fact, all my lab tests improved to well within the normal range and they get better each year that I stay with a Very Low Carb Paleo diet. I had a colonoscopy a year ago and all polyps from the previous test had disappeared and the GI specialist told me that my colon was in such good shape that I would never again need to repeat the procedure. Complete opposite of what the doctors and popular press tell you will happen.
Does anyone know a good source in the UK for grass-fed meat? I know only one shop in my city that offers grass-fed meat (www.realmeat.co.uk), which comes from southern England.
Tyler Durden is the best person to answer this one.
Assuming that I use this company for my meat, what should I ask them to ensure that the flesh is safe for raw consumption (bacteria, parasites etc.)? Should the butcher be able to identify worms/larvae/eggs in muscles/organs? Is there any marinade that destroys parasites/bacteria without denaturing the meat/fat?
Do most butchers give out free fat and bones? Is it easy to remove the marrow and then slow cook the bones for broth? Is fat difficult to chew?
Generally speaking, most of us have been eating large amounts of raw meat and have never encountered any problem with bacteria or parasites. Not saying they don't exist, but after about 4 years of eating only raw meat and fat you'd think that if there was going to be a problem I'd have run into it by now. In fact, many of us eat meat that has been either sitting out in room temperature for many hours and turned a bit sour tasting, or purposely created "High Meat" in the fridge in an effort to add bacteria into our diets. Our paleo ancestors had no refrigeration or other long term storage methods to keep meat fresh. Once they took a large animal down, it would begin to rot, and depending on the temperature could get rather "ripe" in a very short time. They also didn't have fancy butcher shops with sterile stainless steel tables and poly cutting boards and did their butchering with sharp rocks and sticks on the dirt and grass. We are well adapted to handling bacteria in our digestive systems or we wouldn't have made it this far. Many of us are of the opinion that we have a symbiotic relationship with these decay causing bacteria and that they are actually good for our health. I long ago threw away all the disinfectants in my house with nothing but good effects to my health.
Does anyone use the high vitamin fermented cod liver oil (high quality, unprocessed) and ghee as a supplement of fat-soluble vitamins (I realise ghee is cooked, but it would be the exception in a high raw diet)?
I personally use no supplements at all and haven't for many years. I'm rare in that I'm totally Zero Carb and eat only raw meat (I don't necessarily recommend this, I think most people do better on Very Low Carb) for about 4 years straight and have absolutely no signs of any deficiencies and infact the exact opposite. All previous signs of deficiencies disappeared when I went VLC Paleo and they haven't return after 4 years of (fanatical?) zero carb. I don't think you'll have any worries with nutrition eating this way.
One last thing, I've heard about bacterial amines being formed on meat, especially after 2 weeks from slaughter. What does everyone consider fresh and how fresh/tender is a good compromise?
So what is "fresh"? Once something dies it starts to decay immediately. If in a warm area it will be bloated and well on it's way to becoming a liquid goo within hours, and certainly not 2 weeks. Amines may be formed in the decay process, I have no idea, but to think that our bodies can't handle this would indicate that we shouldn't be here at all because our paleo ancestors, without modern methods of preservation, would have eaten lots and lots of these amines.
Is anyone just eating fat without all that protein? Really, I would like plenty of fat for the vitamins, but not massive amounts of protein. I also find it interesting that raw meat provides a measure of vitamin C (an antioxidant!).
I've tried eating all fat without protein and found after a few days that I craved protein, just as when eating all protein, after a short time I started craving fat.
I don't think that meat meets our vitamin C requirement. Current theory is that uric acid steps in as an even more powerful antioxidant and takes the place of vitamin C. No idea if this is correct, but this is what some of the latest research is pointing to. It seems that the role of antioxidants is to give up an electron to neutralize the charge of free radicals. Vitamin C plays this role and according to the latest reseach, uric acid does this even better, thereby reducing or possibly eliminating the need for actual vitamin C.
Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?
I make jerky and pemmican but not sausages or other meats preserved with chemicals.
Jerky could be considered paleo in that it just uses a natural dehydrating process - especially when done at low temperatures, usually below 120F. Salting or seasoning the meat is not paleo, and though my Jerky Maker manual shows seasoning the meat, this was done for the Boy Scouts for whom I first created the manual. I use very little seasoning and usually none at all. Here's a link to my Jerky Maker instructions. Thousands of these have been successfully built and used.
http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/JerkyDrierInstructions.pdf
Pemmican is not strictly paleo because it uses rendered fat which is not a technology available in the paleo era. I eat mainly raw meat for my diet, but do eat pemmican when traveling or in situations where carrying raw meat is inconvenient. I make (and eat) my pemmican without any salt or seasonings whatsoever. Eating salted pemmican for more than a few days as your primary food will cause nutritional deficiencies, where eating unsalted pemmican will not. No clue why this is so, it just is. I've eaten pemmican for up to a month at a time as my only food and have never experienced any health issues at all, in fact, I feel great. I eat about 1 lb per day. I also know others (and one entire family including childern) who eat only unseasoned pemmican as their only food - in the case of the family, for almost 5 years now. The children who are ages 3 and 5 have known no other food. Pemmican may not be strictly paleo, but when properly made, it is clearly a food that supports all our nutritional needs. Here's a link to my Pemmican Manual. You may find this useful as well:
http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf
Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?
There is much agonizing and hand wringing over this subject. I consume frozen and thawed raw meat all the time as it is the most efficient way for me to get my food which comes from over 1,000 miles away. I have had zero problem. Many people insist that freezing damages the cellular structure of the meat. Well, yes that's true, but so does chewing the meat, or letting the meat slowly decay in the refrigerator, or just about anything else we do or don't do to it. Meat starts to decay and breakdown from bacteria and enzymes in the meat the instant the animal dies. Freezing slows this process down but doesn't entirely stop it. Freezing is a natural process and happens naturally in our normal environment without any additional use of technology. If our paleo ancestors made a kill in the winter, it would freeze on it's own - without any help from humans. In fact, we would have had to go to heroic efforts to keep it from freezing.
Does freezing do measurable physical damage to the meat (just like cutting, chewing, or other mechanical damage) yes. Does this critically impact the nutritional quality of the meat, I've seen no evidence of this. In this case, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Feel free to obsess and agonize over this issue if you are in need of something additional to worry over in your life. As for me, I' have better things to do.
Lex
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Hey all,
May I introduce myself as a curious party, hehe...Cool forum with interesting people!
I'm living in Sheffield, United Kingdom and I've been experimenting with raw veganism and raw animal foods. I initially became interested in raw food preparation due to dental cavities, but despite various anecdotes from raw vegans, I've certainly not been successful with that approach (2 years of great effort/fasting/cleansing). Apparently, there are people who thrive solely on plants/fruits/etc., but from what I've read, that's very challenging, even in the presence of a very symbiotic GI tract and no biliary/GB/liver debris to clear away.
Quite, most people don't do well on raw vegan diets given the nutritional deficiencies that can crop up over the years.
I've noticed some anecdotes on here asserting that teeth have strengthened with zero carbs and all animal meat/fat, which I find very interesting (it totally flies in the face of renal acid load and internal hygiene/endotoxin/mycotoxin theory). Many disease recovery programs cite that meat promotes dysbiosis of the GI tract (recommending elimination of any raw/cooked animal products) and also provides no fibre or antioxidants...I'm confused!
Well, I'm one of those whose dental health actually worsened on (raw)zero-carb, so I guess everyone's different.
I would suggest caution when switching from 1 extreme to another after being years on the former diet. The body tends to change/adapt on any particular diet so that raw vegans often find the digestion of meat an issue after being years on raw vegan, zero-carbers experience side-effects when transitioning back to including carbs, however raw etc.
AFAIK, meat does have some antioxidants such as vitamin E(?)
Nevertheless, I'm considering transitioning to eating some land (already eating sashimi+egg yolks) animal meats raw, but I'm a newbie when it comes to a safe approach. I recently had a bad experience with raw farmed salmon, which I would not like to repeat!
Farmed salmon contains canthanxanthin a cancer-causing dye and has a very unhealthy nutrient-profile by comparison to wild salmon. It's common for people on RVAF diets to start on the "easy" raw foods like raw eggs or raw seafood and then work their way up to raw meats and ultimately raw organ-meats, high-meat and meats/organs from wild animals.
Does anyone know a good source in the UK for grass-fed meat? I know only one shop in my city that offers grass-fed meat (www.realmeat.co.uk), which comes from southern England.
Assuming that I use this company for my meat, what should I ask them to ensure that the flesh is safe for raw consumption (bacteria, parasites etc.)? Should the butcher be able to identify worms/larvae/eggs in muscles/organs?
Every RVAF newbie starts off with the notion that bacteria and parasites are a deadly danger. Eventually, after years of eating such unusual items such as rotting meat, they finally come to the conclusion that there is no danger re raw meats. For one thing, modern western agriculture routinely feeds their cattle(however organic) with deworming medicines and , as long as you eat only grassfed or wild meats, issues like e coli aren't a problem. As gets drummed into our heads, it is the quality of the environment that is more important an issue than the so-c\alled pathogen . For example, I remember Aajonus citing a study confirming that salmonella existed in 38% of all US households, yet there is no ever-present salmonella epidemic.That said, you will initially feel compelled, like us in previous times, to use anti-parasitical herbs like wormwood tincture, cayenne pepper, garlic etc. etc., for a period of a few months or years until you eventually come to realise there's no danger. So, buy those raw spices for now.
Is there any marinade that destroys parasites/bacteria without denaturing the meat/fat?
AFAIK, any marinade that kills bacteria automatically denatures the raw meat it's in, BUT the denaturing isn't anywhere near as harsh as what occurs during cooking.
Do most butchers give out free fat and bones? Is it easy to remove the marrow and then slow cook the bones for broth? Is fat difficult to chew?
Some butchers/farmers have given me free fat and bones if I also bought other more expensive meats, but if I overdid this, it generally caused ill-feeling as they naturally felt exploited, even though no one else ever bought the stuff. So if they say you can have it for free, if you make a regular order, make sure to sooner or later request a decent price for the meats.
Don't make broth, it's totally unnecessary and cooking/heating is always harmful to any food.
Does anyone use the high vitamin fermented cod liver oil (high quality, unprocessed) and ghee as a supplement of fat-soluble vitamins (I realise ghee is cooked, but it would be the exception in a high raw diet)?
Ghee is not only derived from dairy, a highly toxic Neolithic food, but is pasteurised so to be avoided LIKE THE PLAGUE like any other cooked animal fat(cooked animal fat has a high heat-created toxin-load).
I do use a raw, fermented cod liver oil product sold by Blue Ice, the only product I trust in this regard. This is solely because, in the past, I've sometimes had to go abroad for a month at a time and had only been able to source raw grainfed meats, so the raw cod liver oil provided some of the omega-3 fatty acids I was missing during that period.
One last thing, I've heard about bacterial amines being formed on meat, especially after 2 weeks from slaughter. What does everyone consider fresh and how fresh/tender is a good compromise?
You don't need to worry about amines unless you are unusually hypersensitive to them. Most people find that amine-rich food(such as rotting meat) actually digests far better than fresh, raw meats.
Is anyone just eating fat without all that protein? Really, I would like plenty of fat for the vitamins, but not massive amounts of protein. I also find it interesting that raw meat provides a measure of vitamin C (an antioxidant!).
Eating too much raw fat can be a problem as we've discovered(excessive weight-gain has been reported etc.)
Basically, there are a lot of vegan-derived myths re too much protein being bad for you. As long as you're eating either some carbs or some fats, then you don't have to worry about the protein issue.
Re organic grassfed meats in the UK:- Here's some links which cover details re the toxicity of cooked foods etc. plus a link as to where to find supplies of grassfed meats:-
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/
My own personal preference is farmers' markets but so many grassfed meat farms now deliver to your door that the latter might be an option if you're into bulk-buying. As I'm a UKer, first go through the various options I've outlined in the above link re where to buy raw foods, if you still have difficulty , feel free to e-mail me and I'll provide further info.
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Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?
Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?
Re jerky:- I don't bother with all that. First of all, many dehydration methods either stick too close to the base temperature where cooking starts doing harm to foods or go over that baseline. Secondly, one of the many reasons why I do this RVAF diet is because it saves so much time(all I usually have to do is use a meat-knife to cut up the pieces or just tear off chunks of raw meat with my teeth if no one else is around!) - so, for me, preparing jerky etc. is a terrible waste of time.And I don't travel all over the place, usually sticking to 1 general area while on holiday, so if I do find myself without access to decent high-quality grassfed raw meat, I'll just eat some raw fruit for a couple of days, instead, while I look around for additional meat-sources.
I think I provided a link detailing the effects of freezing on foods in the child boards section of the general discussions forum on this board. Basically, freezing slightly damages the structure of enzymes in the food(some rawists argue that prolonger freezing destroyes all enzymes over a 2 month period, I think?), plus taste is markedly reduced as the freezing process destroys the cell-walls(via ice-crystal-formation) thus leeching off nutrients.
Most rawists prefer eating raw fresh foods but accept that freezing does nowhere near as much damage as cooking.
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Wow, what a great community - nice one for the comprehensive responses, which I really appreciate.
The farmed salmon was a one off because no wild salmon or tuna was available at the time. Apparently, they don't use the colouring according to organic standards, but I suppose that's probably subjective!
I've been eating plenty of raw egg yolks and sashimi (from my local sushi takeaway) throughout the week, along with organic fruits and some salad vegetables, so I'm looking to take the next step really.
Should I start off with muscle meats in strict moderation the first day (like one slither) and then work my way up to 100-200g after a week or two?
So if I understand correctly, I just buy the meat, give it a quick inspection for small worms or whatever and then chow down?! Is it prudent to rinse the meat or anything? Also, what are the indicators for parasitic/bacterial infection - is it only panickers that end up in hospital with food poisoning? Also, did anyone notice severe constipation and very bulky stools, which are difficult to pass?
Is raw pork safe? Is the fat safer than the protein portion?
Please don't think I'm taking liberties with all this quizzing!
All the best,
Scott M
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The farmed salmon was a one off because no wild salmon or tuna was available at the time. Apparently, they don't use the colouring according to organic standards, but I suppose that's probably subjective!
For me the problem with "farmed" salmon or any other fish is that they are fed Fish Chow made from vegetables and grains, not the things that fish in the wild eat. What has caused most of the problems with our current meat supply is that we feed our cattle an unnatural food and this significantly alters the fatty acid profile as well as other nutrients. Omega3 can drop from 25% - 50% of fatty acids to less than 5% of total fatty acids while "fattening" on grains in a feed lot. The same happens with fish or any other "farmed" critter. Stay away from them unless it is shown that they were fed their true natural diet.
I've been eating plenty of raw egg yolks.....
I'm personally not a huge fan of eggs. I do eat them once in a while (a couple of times per year), but the idea that they were some mainstay of a paleo diet just doesn't seem reasonable to me. Wild eggs are very seasonal, and pretty much only available for a few weeks during the spring. Most eggs are very small compared to the huge chicken, duck, and turkey eggs we find in commercial trade today. They also would be rapidly developing into small birds so it is far more likely that rather than finding eggs with nice clear yellow yolks, we would have feasted on a few embryos in various stages of becoming birds. There are also many people that are allergic to eggs but not allergic to meat. Altogether this makes me feel that eggs might have been an occasional windfall item, but certainly not any significant part of our diet. I don't avoid them but I do limit them to maybe a dozen eggs total per year, eaten in maybe 2 different meals - usually when on vacation with others and I have breakfast as a social event.
Should I start off with muscle meats in strict moderation the first day (like one slither) and then work my way up to 100-200g after a week or two?
Up to you. I started with muscle meats, then came to believe that at least some organ meats were necessary to get all the available nutrients, but have seen so many people do well on muscle meats (along with enough fat) alone that I'm not so sure anymore. I still eat a small amount of organ meats every day (between 100g and 200g) as part of my total food intake of 1kg. I've never experienced a deficiency, even when eating only pemmican or other muscle based meats for several weeks at a time, but continue eating the organ meats as "insurance". I've been doing so well I just don't want to change what's working for me.
So if I understand correctly, I just buy the meat, give it a quick inspection for small worms or whatever and then chow down?! Is it prudent to rinse the meat or anything? Also, what are the indicators for parasitic/bacterial infection - is it only panickers that end up in hospital with food poisoning?
As Tyler said, we all go through the "worry over parasites" phase, and after awhile we get so lazy that we don't do much of anything but purchase and eat. I spend maybe 20 minutes per week total in preparing food. I then spend maybe 30 to 45 minutes per day eating it. I eat about 1kg or 2 lbs in one meal each day.
Also, did anyone notice severe constipation and very bulky stools, which are difficult to pass?
As you body adapts to a meat and fat based diet you may go through short periods of constipation followed by loose stools. What most of us experience is a significant reduction in the bulk of our stools (between 1/4 and 1/3) of when we were eating a large carb load. Our colons are conditioned to this large bulk and on a primarily meat diet it may take several days for the amount of waste to build up to the point to trigger a bowel movement. During that time you probably won't feel "constipated", but you'll be worried that you are only because of the infrequency of your BMs. This seems to be normal. Over time, you're bowels will shrink and adapt to the smaller waste load and you'll have more frequent BMs. Mine started out every 3 or 4 days with an evacuated bulk similar to when eating a mixed diet. Over the last 4 years my BM's have become more frequent - sometimes daily - with a very small bulk, maybe the size of your thumb or a little larger.
After the transition phase which can take several weeks, most of us find evacuations smooth and easier than ever before.
Is raw pork safe? Is the fat safer than the protein portion?
I don't eat a lot of pork as it is almost impossible to find pork that isn't raised almost totally on artificial Hog Chow. That said, today's pork industry is so well regulated and inspected that the parasites and other problems are almost totally gone. I'm sure there is a little more risk eating pork than red meat, but certainly not enough for me to not eat pork if it was the only meat available to me.
Lex
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Amazing, once again, a rapid, comprehensive response...Kudos!
I actually read your story Lex and you're certainly experiential in your approach, which I can appreciate.
My concern about parasites is based on research that I undertook when considering sashimi (WAI experimentation) for my pleasure. There were some reports (as an example) about parasite larvae from line caught mackerel sashimi causing temporary small intestine obstruction, which was very distressing for the consumer! I'd prefer not to induce my stress response on that account...I hate to involve allopathic medicine...
I'm pretty aware about the dynamics of the food chain (impact on fatty acid profile etc.), which is why I wouldn't eat non-pastured land animals or farmed fish, but one can only do one's best to bring in what one can!
Previously, my approach to transitioning between eating styles has been radical and overnight, but I'm gradually realising that the tippy toe waltz is the best facilitator of welcome change.
Tomorrow, I'll be visiting my local pastured meat supplier with the intention of picking up a nice cut of beef muscle along with some fat and bones...Can anyone recommend a particular cut for the n00b please?
Does anyone have a penchant for eyeballs or gonads (pretty high in nutrients)?! Hehe...
Incidentally, is everyone here accustomed to the practice of clearing old debris from the biliary system? Optimal bile flow is the critical factor in digestion and detoxification, amongst many other things. Bile means the difference between effective peristalsis and slowww digestive transit. I'm currently peeling the onion that is my bile occlusion and the more I kick out, the better I feel on a complete systemic scale.
I'm really wondering what it will be like to chew on raw flesh/fat tomorrow...
Does anyone use homemade mustard or horseradish, like they use wasabi/ginger with sashimi?
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"I'm pretty aware about the dynamics of the food chain (impact on fatty acid profile etc.)"
good for you!
in my case, what really keeps me from eating prefrozen or cooked meat ultimately just boils down to 1 key thing:
dietary long chain pufa's esp. such long chain omega-3 as dha
why so?
unlike mufa's & sat fat's, which the body either uses as fuel or stores as adipose tissue, pufa's are invisibly hiding in all cell membranes
now, it so happens that both freezing & high temperature (perhaps above 40c/108f) destroy/burst open all cell membranes > there goes the precious dha that would otherwise have nourished your brain, eyes, nervous system, etc. etc. > down the drain or up in the air
myself, i prefer to avoid this vicious circle: the less dha i eat the worse my brain works, the more incapable i become of noticing the value of dha...
but, of course, every1 = an individual
most of the human population on the planet has never heard of dha...
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Wow, what a great community - nice one for the comprehensive responses, which I really appreciate.
The farmed salmon was a one off because no wild salmon or tuna was available at the time. Apparently, they don't use the colouring according to organic standards, but I suppose that's probably subjective!
Even organic-raised salmon are fed on grain products and other rubbish(which wild fish don't eat). Just eat wild-caught fish and (maybe) eat some types of farmed shellfish(oysters and mussels and other shelled shellfish tend to just be left out to feed on nutrients from ocean currents, so are safer).
I've been eating plenty of raw egg yolks and sashimi (from my local sushi takeaway) throughout the week, along with organic fruits and some salad vegetables, so I'm looking to take the next step really.
Should I start off with muscle meats in strict moderation the first day (like one slither) and then work my way up to 100-200g after a week or two?
That's one alternative. You could also start eating cooked meat and then gradually lower the temperature by 1 degree every day until, finally, you can eat raw meat at room-temperature.
So if I understand correctly, I just buy the meat, give it a quick inspection for small worms or whatever and then chow down?! Is it prudent to rinse the meat or anything? Also, what are the indicators for parasitic/bacterial infection - is it only panickers that end up in hospital with food poisoning? Also, did anyone notice severe constipation and very bulky stools, which are difficult to pass?
We don't even bother to inspect the meats - what's the point? And rinsing gets rid of nice things like the blood.
Re food-poisoning:- It is very rare, if at all, to have food-poisoning from raw foods. That can only really happen if one is eating very unhealthy raw foods, such as grainfed meats. Other than that, one can be allergic to some raw foods(I'm heavily allergic to raw dairy and raw coconut-oil, for example)
Is raw pork safe? Is the fat safer than the protein portion?
There have been some ridiculous scares re trichinosis in pork, but the truth is that the rate of trichinosis in western countries is almost nonexistent, due to frequent deworming of pigs etc. Now, if you were eating meat in a tropical country that might have been contaminated(via unhealthy farming practices), it might be an issue -otherwise, forget it.
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Amazing, once again, a rapid, comprehensive response...Kudos!
Tomorrow, I'll be visiting my local pastured meat supplier with the intention of picking up a nice cut of beef muscle along with some fat and bones...Can anyone recommend a particular cut for the n00b please?
It doesn't matter. Choose the cheaper cuts of meat - they are often fattier(which is good) and the lower price will benefit you.
Does anyone have a penchant for eyeballs or gonads (pretty high in nutrients)?! Hehe...
Very few people are able to get hold of those unusual organs. I didn't like the raw stag testicles I was once given, to be honest, and I still haven't found a source for raw eyeballs(known to be very fatty).
Does anyone use homemade mustard or horseradish, like they use wasabi/ginger with sashimi?
Some rawists make their own raw mustard or raw vinegar or whatever, but, to be honest, long-term RVAFers generally prefer not using any additional condiments. Raw sauces/spices are mostly a newbie habit, meant to help to adjust to the taste of a raw food diet. Once one starts enjoying the taste of raw foods, spices become unnecessary. Besides, I have found that raw spices tend to increase one's appetite overly, and to speed up bowel-movements and digestion of foods(if not absorption?)
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Hey rafonly,
Good for you too! In fact, good for all of us!
Nice adjunct in respect of the time honoured tradition of reconciling our nature with our present - I feel educated in considering this nuance, thanks.
Given that the aquatic medium presents a fair modicum of these long chain omega 3s, are you also incorporating those animal foods, or is there too much toxic payload from the oceans/waterways? Furthermore, I'm presuming you're a subscriber to interspecies organ donation on this account...So let me ask again - are you enjoying eyeballs and gonads?! Hehe...
The DHA-deficient mindset is surely a degenerative mindset - can you elucidate the wherefores of this mindset, because even after experimenting with algae, plankton, sashimi and high quality CLO sources over a long period of time (not on raw land animals until now!), I still struggle with attention and short term/working memory...Brain physiology is something that engages me no end, what with consideration for the past hypoxias, ischemias and infarctions that I must have suffered in my self-abuse.
Another aspect that I still cannot ignore is that both our internal and external physiology (somatotypically) are more representative of gatherers rather than hunters. To my mind, it seems that only by culture/intelligence and the requirement to survive have we adapted to some extent to eating animals, but our physiology still testifies to our frugivorous origins. One thing I can't understand is why humans don't produce uricase like other typical carnivores...
Also, with such attention to these PUFAs (or lipids in general), do you really know how much you're actually assimilating (maybe there's an even higher distinction)? Many humans with previously poor diets have compromised bile production due to excess deposits in the biliary system. Better assimilation means eating less and eating less is reputed (in fact is fairly well substantiated) to facilitate longevity (just a thought).
Any insights are always appreciated, thanks.
All the best,
Scott M
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Actually, the evidence makes it clear that humans are omnivores if one looks at the herbivorous and carnivorous teeth in the mouth, the digestive system etc.
Re IF:_ A lot of people now subscribe to the notion of IF leading to longer lifespan. Calroic restriction, on the other hand, seems to have the same effect re prolonging lifespan but ruins one's health in the long-term.
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Thanks for attending to my questions/arguments. However, I'm looking to glean more information from you, if I can.
Initially, it's only by prosthetic/technological apparatus (from culture) and some adaptive intelligence that we have the capability to hunt, kill and butcher many animals - there's barely anything in our physiology that I've read that likens us to the "truer" omnivores. On many accounts, I struggle to comprehend how the human carnivore truly reconciles with nature. Having said that, maybe we adapted to raw animal foods in the presence of prosthetics/technology, yet we lack the typical short GI tract of omnivores/carnivores for rapid evacuation of putrefied matter (with it's complement of endo/mycotoxins). What's the general argument for low carbing? I mean, why have salivary amylase for carbohydrate pre-digestion if carbs are seldom ingested/masticated.
Having said all this, I shall be willing to adopt more raw animal foods along with the reduction of carbohydrates.
Also, calorie restriction with optimal nutrition in the context of optimal assimilation/absorption (quite a rare thing with all the atrophied intestinal villi, bile occlusion and the like) is a potential indicator for longevity, which is not often surveyed in a cross section of human populations...Time will obviously tell, but the Okinawans testify, along with some of the long-term CRON practitioners.
I think there's much to be said for a cross-disciplinary approach...
Once again, I really appreciate the sound attitude of everyone on this forum - definitely one of the best communities around!
All the best,
Scott M
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we lack the typical short GI tract of omnivores/carnivores for rapid evacuation of putrefied matter (with it's complement of endo/mycotoxins).
What's the general argument for low carbing?
The GI tract shrinks in the absence of carbs. We can feel the difference. As for putrefaction, my crap reeketh not, compared to my carb-eating days.
For a good argument, read "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes, and for a good read there is Bear's story at
http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/Bear_s_Words_Of_Wisdom_about22.html
William
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yes, "time precedes existence":
to cite 1 example, as you can see in the pufa n-3 vs n-6 thread i started recently, the body stores omega-6 but not omega-3 > thus it takes 2-5 years to clean it up of stored excess inflammatory omega-6 (esp. the short & medium chain 1's from plant oils, eggs, dairy) -- not to mention the hormones in eggs & milk products
now, for recreation & entertainment, fun & games only, these are some of the things i've been doing these days, which may change anytime w/ no notice:
~ fish oil, not a nutrient extract but full-fledged & plain fish oil, from wild caught fish not molecular distilled (i.e. not overheated): it contains all pufa's & mufa's + tiny amounts of vit a & d (its epa content being lower than the combined sum of dha + other omega-3's, which is an advantage)
http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=252 (http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=252)
{1 of these days i'll try the raw cod liver oil from green pastures & see how i like it}
~ i always buy local meat the day it's delivered to the meat market
i did eat prefrozen meat (never ground, though) for several months until i got literally sick 'n tired of its lack of fragrance & flavor
nowadays my preferred storage procedure is home dry aging -- never for more than 5 days; no plastic bag or vacuum sealing -- by wrapping the bone-in primal cuts of beef or goat i get in waxed paper & kitchen towels & setting the whole thing on the coldest fridge level short of freezing (replacing the towels as they get wet every 1-2 days)
~ re. hca amines, aromatic byproducts of heating, age's, etc. etc.:
sometimes i enjoy a meat soup > the meat 'n bones is covered w/ water so it doesn't smoke nor turn charred, set in cold (deionized) water w/ plenty of fresh rosemary (oregano, laurel if available) + dried garlic & ginger & then placed on med-low temp until it boils no more than for a few min
the resultant broth is such a unique tea/infusion!
here's my current theory:
carnivorism = just for some human gene-phene type
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Here's a 5-part essay giving the (biased) pro-meat theory re human digestion since you seem only to have come across the herbivore argument so far:-
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html
Of course, both sides are flawed as humans can eat most everything. Granted, grains are a problem along with some other raw foods like raw legumes or raw dairy but otherwise they can eat everything else raw(so are perhaps obligate omnivores).
Re technology:- Humans didn't need technology to eat raw flesh. The only exception I can think of is the use of flints to open up bones and skulls for the marrow and brains but otherwise eating the flesh is no problem.
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here's my current theory:
carnivorism = just for some human gene-phene type
What is your human gene-phene type?
My guess is you add if the animal food found in the locale can sustain pure carnivory.
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I genuinely appreciate the activity in this thread and the opportunity to be educated in what seems like an alternative and very worthwhile discipline. Kudos to all the good characters...
I cannot stay around long enough this evening to reciprocate with some lively material, so I'll defer it 'til tomorrow when I can afford it the merit it deserves.
This "Bear" (as in the definite article - talk about self-appointment!) is an advocate of cooking and dairy to a minimal extent, is he not? Does this harmonise with the consensus here, or am I to understand otherwise (being a raw advocate myself)? Most of what the Bear says resonates very resoundingly (for most, if not all, I'm sure), but there are similarly compelling arguments from the other disciplines and their associated gurus (insulin is an easy one to confound, although I have to admit, there were some authoritative elucidations of its action without the usual overawing nomenclature and verbiage). Am I right to interpret that the gruff one is non-discriminative about how his prey is fed (pasture, grain etc.)? Ultimately, the Bear seems like a very accessible dictatorship, yet there are elements of downright ignorance in his partially experiential and wholly relentless paradigmatic onslaught. Suffice to say I'm learning...
Does anyone here advocate searing? Also, does anyone enjoy raw or seared bacon?
Still on the confuzzled thread, what are the best cuts of meat with plenty of marbling, or does it vary from creature to creature? Does anyone often eat raw lamb, which always seems to me to have a nice chunk of fat on it?
I promise that I won't perpetuate this confuzzled thread too much more...(hehe)
Thanks again everyone for this leg up onto the ladder.
All the best,
MrBBQ
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searing is a transitional thing - eventually you don't look forward to searing.
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Eventually you look forward to running down a big bison and biting through his spinal cord and eating his organs raw RIGHT THERE. LOL
No, really, you will start to enjoy the richness of a big piece of raw beef or lamb. Who needs it seared? It takes time, but you'll get there. :)
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Does anyone often eat raw lamb, which always seems to me to have a nice chunk of fat on it?
yes! i've been eating a lot of lamb lately. in my opinion it has a better taste than beef, but that might just be because its a relatively new meat to me. very good flavor and some of the fat definitely tastes like goat cheese!
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I only buy grass-fed lamb from New Zealand and it tastes sweet, but not as sweet as pork.
Lamb liver is slighly bitter, not as sweet as calf liver.
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I eat raw lamb frequently, but I prefer raw mutton when I can get it as it's fattier. I choose all parts of lamb/mutton so I don't think it matters which part you get.
Re searing:- The whole point of raw is that one benefits from the bacteria and enzymes. Even light-cooking, while not creating so many heat-created toxins, has no enzymes or bacteria so is not useful for rebuilding health.
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Well, after some encouragement from my very good friends around here, I've decided to forego the searing altogether and keep the thermodynamics away from the fine flesh.
I've just taken a brand new carving knife and chopping board, and cut myself ~70g of thin slices of pastured Angus, which I placed alongside a garnish of finely chopped onion, garlic, cayenne, ginger, sun-dried sea salt and extra virgin olive oil.
I have to say that it tasted just like a butcher's shop smells - not very much like even rare cooked beef! I chewed a small slither beforehand without any adulteration, just to acquaint myself with the pure taste/texture. Quite unprecedented...Maybe I'll experiment with mustard and spices 'til I acquire the taste...
So, I'll just wait and see what happens now...I have some lamb chops and lamb's liver, as well as some beef bones in the fridge, which I'll be finishing over the next few days.
@Cosmo: Where do you order the NZ lamb from?
@TylerDurden: On a long enough time line, the survival rate of everyone drops to zero (sorry, just messing about). Do you buy grass-fed meat locally or via farms further afield? There's only one shop (it seems) in my locality that sells pastured meat and the farmer's market here is rubbish. The Angus beef that I bought worked out at £30/kg and the lamb chops a little less. I don't object to paying for quality, but I was just wondering what is actually considered reasonable to the seasoned (no pun intended) RAFer.
Thanks again for the help and support, which I really appreciate. This forum is an invaluable resource for the newbie.
Cheers,
MrBBQ
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@Cosmo: Where do you order the NZ lamb from?
MrBBQ, I order it from Sainsbury's online :-)))))) I did my own research about NZ lamb and found out it that it's 100% grass fed. I'm happy with it so far although it's not organic. And by the way I buy it already minced so all I have to do is - add some spices to it and eat :-))) yes, i'm lazy like that!
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Nice one Cosmo, although I can only find 2 instances of minced lamb on Sainsbury's Online - either non-organic or organic...However, none of these say anything about NZ...
Which one do/did you choose?
Is the lamb mince lean or nice and fatty?!
Would I be better popping into a local Sainsbury's and asking for just NZ minced lamb? Have you had any "trouble" with this supermarket offering?
I'm now scrambling for alternatives because the local grass-fed butcher (well, not him but the meat! ;-)) is offering cuts at astronomical prices, which I'd struggle to afford in more quantity than 100g/day...
Thanks in advance, as usual!
MrBBQ
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Buying meat from a supermarket is for me a no-no. Yous ee, supermarkets always have to buy in bulk and that inevitably means that the suppliers/farmers have to lower quality in order to provide that large a quantitity. I've even heard(admittedly unsubstantiated) reports that much of NZ lamb is grain-fiinished during the last 3 months before slaughter.
Re buying foods:- I have the excellent london farmers' markets association here in London which has a dozen farmers' markets under their purview all over the capital. All such markets are semi-organic providing high-quality food in most cases(though some fools cheat and feed their buffalo on grains etc - one has to ask re grazing etc.) I have in the past ordered from grassfed meat farms elsewhere, particularly for grassfed marrow and suet, and that works fine as they deliver direct to your door(just ask them to put it in a discreet corner near the door as no one steals such parcels, IMO). There's usually a standard delivery charge which is the same no matter the amount of food you buy, so just buy a £100 of raw meats at a time, store most of it in the freezer, and that should be fine.
As regards finding grassfed meat farms, that's easy, just google "grassfed meat farm" followed by the name of the county you're searching in, and you'll come up with numerous examples with contact details.
Re price:- That £30 for kilo of angus beef must be for organic 100% grassfed fillet steak. When i first started, I would prefer to go for organ-meats as they were so much cheaper(raw tongue and raw heart are much like muscle-meat in texture yet a whole ox tongue costs 5 to 8 pounds depending on the seller and a raw ox heart is often sold for the same despite being huge). Even if you go for muscle-meats, buying stewing-steak is a hell of a lot cheaper than fillet-steak and just as good re nutritional value.Other organs I've bought were marrow at 1 pound fifty pence a kilo(admittedly including the weight of the bone), raw suet at 5 pounds a kilo etc.
Lamb(and especially mutton is cheaper and more likely to be grassfed than beef). For example at my local farmers' market I can get a whole leg of lamb for 18 pounds and whole leg of mutton for 13-14 pounds, which should last a day or two.
Wild game is even cheaper. I get a wild hare carcass(easily supplying meat enough for 2 days, maybe 3) which costs anywhere from 7 to 13 pounds.
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Nice one Cosmo, although I can only find 2 instances of minced lamb on Sainsbury's Online - either non-organic or organic...However, none of these say anything about NZ...
Which one do/did you choose?
Is the lamb mince lean or nice and fatty?!
Would I be better popping into a local Sainsbury's and asking for just NZ minced lamb? Have you had any "trouble" with this supermarket offering?
MrBBQ, there's no organic lamb in my local supermarket, that's why I have to buy non-organic NZ lamb.
Being based in Derby doesn't help if you a dedicated raw paleo eater :-)
If I had a choice, I'd go for organic meat just like Tyler recommends.
Having said that, so far I had no problems whatsoever with non-organic meat and organs and will keep buying them untill I find an alternative.
That particular NZ lamb is quite fatty and doesn't cost a bomb.
Let us know what you think of it.
Where about are you based?
Cosmo
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Hey Cosmo+Tyler (and my other good contemporaries, of course),
I've not been near a PC over the weekend (grafting in the heat mainly), so I've only just seized the opportunity to come back.
So, up to now, I've had 100% grass-finished Angus beef, lamb and lamb's liver...The liver did not seem bitter, but for me, it's truly a taste that I'll have to acquire (I never liked it cooked when my family used to eat it either). Anyone know any good marinades?! I've also eaten every raw flesh meal with finely chopped onion, garlic, chillies, cayenne and ginger (mixed with a little sun-dried sea salt and first cold pressed olive oil)...Does anyone know a good source for virgin macadamia oil in the UK? (I've picked up a couple of online sources, but they're approaching £15 per half litre)
I suppose it's not always that easy to source organic and grass-fed/finished meat, but like Tyler said to me, with some extra effort calling regional farms (farm shops) and maybe some regular driving (foraging!), better value meat is potentially accessible. I've just been googling for things like "grass/pasture/free range farm shop [region/county]" and asking the proprietors the usual questions. Most people are offering heart, tongue, bones, suet and other bits at a decent price (or complementary!). I've also been eating cuts that've been in my fridge for a week, which have not really diminished in taste (I suppose they keep them hanging for a while anyway).
@Cosmo: So am I right to understand that the non-organic minced lamb is implicitly from NZ? Let me ask again - is it grass or grain-finished based on your research?
@Tyler: What do you know about the finishing of the NZ lamb?!
(I mean, let's at least establish the facts)
@Tyler: I'm slightly paraniod about eating liver due to liver flukes, which grow from larvae into adults higher in the food chain. I decided to rinse the first piece of liver that I tried, plus I cut it into very thin slices and inspected each slice, including the hepatic ducts for any lesions/damage or small foreign bodies. Apparently, liver fluke is particularly prevalent in cattle and sheep, especially in the marshy pastures of the United Kingdom. Do you know if any animals with such an infection could be allowed to enter our food chain via a high quality free range/grass-finished farm/butcher, and/or otherwise, do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any knowledge/experience with liver flukes? (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascioliasis#Human_fasciolosis)
@goodsamaritan: I know you're an advocate of raw liver, particularly as a "multivitamin for tooth healing"...What's your knowledge about the prevalence of flukes and becoming a competent "liver chef" (inspecting for damage/foreign bodies)?
Ultimately, would a farmer/vet with any kind of responsibility allow a fascioliasis-diseased liver into the human food chain? Is it at all probable that asymptomatic fascioliasis could make it into a farm shop and into my gut/liver/gallbladder?!
Apparently, aquatic/marsh plants (e.g. water cress, lamb's lettuce, dandelion, ...) and some other plants are another vector/vehicle into the human ecosystem...
It's making me wonder about that cat-based brain parasite (Toxoplasma gondii) that was mentioned on here as well because my next door neighbour has 12 disgusting (ex-stray) cats and I always used to forage wild plants (dandelions, nettles) from my garden, which was a frequent dumping ground for these animals (I always did a daily check/removal of animal feces and thoroughly rinsed my wild plants, which may not have been enough!). I don't recall my personality shifting that much though!
At the moment, I'm doing a typical parasite cleanse (tincture+caps), coupled with regular liver flushes, but looking at some of the damaged animal livers, it's quite alarming what these flukes can do!
Based on what I've read, the liver fluke can often be the precursor to many/most disease processes. Really, avoiding this beast is of utmost importance...
If anyone has any flukey/fascioliasis insights, it would be most appreciated thanks (I want to keep this liver munching up, along with my high-vitamin CLO!).
ULTIMATELY, I suppose what I'm wondering is if this is russian roulette or if we have a chance through a failsafe approach to procuring/preparing animal livers...Please allay my fears!
All the best,
MrBBQ
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I got told this info re nz lamb by someone on the primal diet list years ago. No solid facts, but most of the info we get re quality of farms is anecdotal.
Re liver-flukes:- Look, all farm animals in the west get routinely dewormed, usually vaccinated and given endless medicines even the organic-raised ones. So parasites aren't an issue in western lands. That said, I've been eating raw wild game for years with no issues from parasites so I KNOW it's not a problem. You'll just have to keep on eating raw meats/lover or whatever, add on any anti-parasitic herbs - eventually, you'll get lazy and forget to add the herbs and you'll find, inevitably, that you're fine.
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@Tyler: As ever, a rapid response, which is most appreciated. O0
I suppose it's all down to buying well-raised animals that've lived natural lives (wild or pseudo-wild/farmed!), so I can concur, to a certain extent...However, I'll never be less than vigilant...One only owes it to oneself to minimise complications of raw food preparation, plant or animal sourced...I hate that "hindsight is always 20/20" when some clever so-and-so is doing their "told you so bit". I appreciate your efficacy-based anecdote along with reassuring fact...
Conversely, I would never take anti-whatever herbs for any extended length of time, given their associated (well-established) toxicities/effects...As such, it would not be out of a relaxation of vigilance, but more out of routine. I do actually love onion/garlic/spices/ginger, so I'll just keep up that protocol for a while 'til it sickens me (even though they also have their well-established toxicity/impact on GI tract).
Does everyone use water-diluted (e.g. 50/50) lemon juice (to give enough volume to cover the meat) or is full-potency, freshly-squeezed lemon juice the norm (I can imagine it's labour-intensive and expensive to squeeze plenty of lemons all the time - or can it be reused?!).
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MrBBQ, I don't know for sure, if some of NZ lamb is grain finished.
All I know is that whenever I eat it I feel great afterward and that's all that matters to me at the moment.
It would be great to visit NZ and find out every single detail about lamb farming.
By the way, guys (including Tyler), do you every take into account quality of the water that animals consume? I'm sure that water in NZ is of much superior quality that in the UK, so organic or not, grass-fed or not, polluted water could do more harm than anything else.
I hope that you all remember that the water content in humans and animals is about 70%.
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The issue re toxicity of anti-aparasitical herbs is irrelevant as these only are a problem if you consume the herbs in huge amounts. In small amounts for long periods, they're fine and extremely beneficial in other ways, not just parasites.
Re lemon-juice marinade:- we just use 100% freshly-squeezed lemon-juice.
Re water-content:- I'd imagine that organic grassfed meat farms are the same all over the world, with only water in tropical countries possibly being contaminated.
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@Tyler: Thanks for the concise answers - most appreciated.
@Cosmo: Thanks for the invaluable interjections. So just to clarify, you're just buying straight non-organic minced lamb from Sainsbury's (nothing about NZ on the label?)?! If I'm going through a skint period and struggling to afford decent quality meat, I'll fall back to this minced NZ lamb (or even if I just can't be bothered travelling to the other side of town, which I have to do at the moment). It's an interesting point about water...Do organic standards dictate spring water?
Going back to the antihelmintics and stuff, I'm presuming that we're generally referring to wormwood, cloves and green black walnut hulls (amongst the more tolerable others like cayenne, garlic, onion etc.)...After reviewing a lot of the "hearsay" about regular/irregular dosing of wormwood over short or long periods, I'm wondering what a safe maintenance/proactive dose would be (during my paranoid/immature phase)...Any ideas?
Also, I've just opened a plastic bag in my fridge containing some free stuff like bones, fat offcuts and even some fatty slithers of meat. There was a very slight "off" smell, but I've just cut up some of the fat into small chunks and been munching on it throughout the morning. Where's the line between edible "off" and inedible "off", or is it down to personal taste/discretion? I don't want to go down the overgrowth/pathogenesis argument, but I'm wondering how rotten people are eating their forages, even when they're complementary?
Thanks for the typically sound attitude in this forum!
All the best,
MrBBQ
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Oh, also on the matter of older meat/fat that's been kept in a plastic bag in the fridge...What's the risk of botulism?! I read about eskimos contributing to botulism statistics in the USA due to their meat fermentation practices...Quite worrying the effect of this particular nerve toxin...
Does anyone have tips about when to dispose of raw meat/fat please? I'm slightly concerned now that my palate is not honed enough to detect something as insipid as a potent nerve toxin...
I mean, how can one minimise contamination with this kind of thing (however rare it may be)?
Most (closed-minded) people frown on the concept of RAF, so there would be some serious frowning going on if I found myself in such a terrible predicament...
Me personally, I've never been a subscriber to the collective unconscious, so the hassle-free zone is a place I don't frequently inhabit! Nevertheless, co-existence does make life a little easier when it's kind rather than brutal...
Please help!
MrBBQ
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unlesss well vac. sealed, I always with meat get it out of the plastic and let it stand alone on stainless steel wire racks in fridge. With a good fridge it will last until it turns to jerky. Well, it still is good, just dried out. With fat, again, unless in vac. sealed bag, I get it out of plastic. But the outside layers will oxidize and I believe is not ideal. You can scrape and rinse in warm water to get of that outside layer or simply shave off that thin layer, exposing fresh underneath. Get bones out of plastic quickly, and let air out in fridge, they go off the fastest. But note, I am not one for high meats. Others may have different valid ways.
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Nice one van - seems like decent advice...What do you reckon about storing in glass containers? I have these ultra-lite glass bowls with plastic lids, which go nicely in my fridge...I have no dedicated fridge for meat and there's plenty of other stuff in there (all raw stuff like), so I wouldn't want cross contamination with salad vegetables or whatever...
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I get raw pancreas and liver which is very wet, drippy. Those I put in glass bowls. Sometimes I let the liver drain and put on the wire rack too. I used to have the idea of cross contamination. But not know. I just have a shelf for the meat. Often two shelves. YOu might simply want to start with a piece of meat on a rack. Test it out. I bet you'll find that everything will be fine.
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Oh, also on the matter of older meat/fat that's been kept in a plastic bag in the fridge...
Why would you want to put meat in a plastic bag in the fridge? Sounds gross.
I go to market, I buy fresh meat, they put in a plastic bag for me to carry.
I go home, put meat I will eat in 2 days in the fridge in tupperware, the rest of the meat I put in the freezer in tupperware.
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Haha, it's just something that I did because all of my containers were in use for other things...(no time to always go shopping!)
I've just bought some glass containers and my latest batch of meat has been transferred into these. I suppose the advantage of plastic bags is that their shape is flexible, so things like extra large bones can still fit without chopping (I still have to buy a saw!).
Along with the organ meat toxicity issue, I really think this subject matter should be documented in some kind of sticky...
(what says you good moderator(s)?)
MrBBQ
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IIRC all it takes to keep meat is a temperature 5° above ambient, and moving air. It should then dry eventually without rotting, and some prefer the tast of partly dried meat.
If that be true, we don't need refrigerators.
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Wouldn't that ultimately result in a loss of anything water-soluble (e.g. vitamin C) then though? This factor of dehydration has always puzzled me - whether the water-soluble stuff gets left behind like for instance, limescale, or whether it migrates somewhere(!)?
I've got an Excalibur for home dehydration, so I might have a go at partially dried meat...Is that your preference?
MrBBQ
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From the experience of those who have eaten nothing but pemmican for years, nothing is lost that we need for meat and fat digestion.
I have an Excalibur too, and thoroughly dry everything to make jerky that I use to make pemmican, but others have written that somewhat dried tastes better than just fresh meat.
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Oh, also on the matter of older meat/fat that's been kept in a plastic bag in the fridge...What's the risk of botulism?! I read about eskimos contributing to botulism statistics in the USA due to their meat fermentation practices...Quite worrying the effect of this particular nerve toxin...
Does anyone have tips about when to dispose of raw meat/fat please? I'm slightly concerned now that my palate is not honed enough to detect something as insipid as a potent nerve toxin...
I mean, how can one minimise contamination with this kind of thing (however rare it may be)?
Most (closed-minded) people frown on the concept of RAF, so there would be some serious frowning going on if I found myself in such a terrible predicament...
Me personally, I've never been a subscriber to the collective unconscious, so the hassle-free zone is a place I don't frequently inhabit! Nevertheless, co-existence does make life a little easier when it's kind rather than brutal...
Please help!
MrBBQ
I'm also starting to wonder about botulism. anyone know what the risk is with making high meat? does botulism make a certain smell? it just doesn't seem like a good idea to leave meat in an anaerobic environment like in a glass jar... i don't know. maybe i'll just get a big pot full of dirt and bury some meat with leaves around it to make high meat. i think van mentioned wanting to do this too.
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I'm also starting to wonder about botulism. anyone know what the risk is with making high meat? does botulism make a certain smell? it just doesn't seem like a good idea to leave meat in an anaerobic environment like in a glass jar... i don't know. maybe i'll just get a big pot full of dirt and bury some meat with leaves around it to make high meat. i think van mentioned wanting to do this too.
You're supposed to aerate the high meat. If you leave it in a jar, open it to the air for a few minutes at least once every 3-4 days(I prefer every day or every 2nd day, myself).