Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: SuperInfinity on July 08, 2009, 09:50:35 am
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1. Australopithecus ate up to 90%+ fruit just like all the other Great Apes. Only about 1 or 2% of even the chimps' diet comes directly from captured meat.
2. There is no reason that within a couple of 100,000 years man magically evolved to being 40% carnivorous EVERY SINGLE DAY.
3. Man's teeth are very little adapted for omnivorism. The fossil record shows man ate a huge amount of fruit, vegetables of insects, eggs, fish, etc. little meat.
4. Wild fruit are almost the exact same as store fruit, some have MORE sugar. I'm not attracted to sweeter fruit, noone is. Sweetness has little to do with how much one enjoys fruit.
5. If you do well on a high protein diet and not a high fruit one, it's probably because you have metabolic syndrome from years of insulin and adrenal abuse. I feel really, really sorry for you.
6. I don't like red meat (except sausages I'll admit but I don't eat them anymore). I would refuse ham growing up (and no, not from animal welfareor health concerns at all) even though it was there nearly every day and my main source of meat, I HATED it and still do. I do like chicken... but rarely have it. For protein I normally have fish and eggs.
7. Fruit is the food of choice for all primates. Man only resorted to vegetables and meat when he ran out of fruit, it's not OPTIMAL. I mean... sure I guess he did EAT it sometimes when he was starving as Neanderthal man was said to have done almost 100% when he was starving in the cold weather (that hominid that is now EXTINCT)... I'm sure he would also have eaten faeces and flowers if he got desperate enough...
NB: I DO NOT WISH TO STOP YOU FROM CHOOSING YOUR OWN DIET BUT PLEASE DO NOT MISINFORM PEOPLE AS TO HOW PALEO MAN ATE!
MANY BELIEVE PALEO MAN WAS MAINLY A FRUGIVORE, FROM CHARLES DARWIN ONWARDS.
Read: Man The Hunted. It explains all the common fallacies in books such as Man The Hunter.
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Nice first post SuperInfinity.
This should spice things up.
I came to raw paleo from vegan -> fruitarian -> wai diet -> raw paleo
But my raw animal food intake has been increasing.
I will be experimenting with all raw beef next week.
Let's see.
What I do know is that there are eskimos who are almost completely carnivorous but there are no tribes that are almost completely vegan / fruitarian.
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uh, try eating that way in the wild. i guarantee you won't survive. period.
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Technically speaking, in a tropical country like the Philippines, there should be tons of fruits and plant matter. But I've never known a tribe to not eat meat. Meat is such a wanted thing. When I'm in a pot luck gathering, whoever opens the meats is sure to have his offering finished off first. People gravitate towards meat as a preferred food.
I think the mistake is cooking meat.
Anyway, my current theory being on raw omnivore is that I should continuously monitor my plant / animal ratios to suite my current health status / age. Nothing is set in stone.
My kids are on a cure tooth decay program so I'm deliberately increasing their raw animal food intake.
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Just remember to say goodbye to your teeth on a mostly-fruit diet. They almost certainly won't last.
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Just remember to say goodbye to your teeth on a mostly-fruit diet. They almost certainly won't last.
At first I tried it without brushing my teeth.... it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit).
I think the reason they get like that is because they're already malformed and fragile in nearly all of us from early childhood. In the (now free) 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration it's shown really well how those people didn't brush at all and yet have teeth far better than we did. Yes I realise they had meat, fish, natural, organic cow's milk etc... but the point is that teeth degeneration is based on civilization a lot more than any particular diet.
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Have you seen www.curetoothdecay.com ?
Rami Nagel just shared what worked and his approach is mostly high fat, high nutrient primal diet. And testimonials are easier to come by.
In my raw vegan and raw fruitarian days I never once came across a cure tooth decay protocol.
My old teacher barefootherbalistmh.com was promoting frutiarianism. Problem was he had zero teeth, all his teeth were already pulled out when he learned about health so he didn't have any teeth to lose on his fruitarian diet. But he has a special concoction called longevity spices he makes fresh from various fruits, herbs and nuts in his area. Maybe if I had those longevity spices I would have succeeded with my raw vegan and raw fruitarian days.
I think Skinny Devil is on the less meat diet. And it works for him.
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Just thought I'd mention that there are tribes who are vegetarian. I remember 1 study done on a persian tribe which was vegetarian(actually vegan, I think?) And then there are communities like the Jainites in India etc.
Also, chimp's diet is routinely quoted as consisting of c.3% meat. 7% is routinely quoted as consisting of animal food(ie meat and insects combined).
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2. There is no reason that within a couple of 100,000 years man magically evolved to being 40% carnivorous EVERY SINGLE DAY.
There is not a single "raw paleo" diet. Some folks here eat meat every day. Some eat only meat. Some tend to eat mostly fruits & veggies and splurge on meat. There are many other variations.
That you dislike red meat does not mean others dislike red meat.
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SuperInfinity recently tried this on the paleofood list, and was blown out of the water/shot down in flames.
Search the archive for the name Padraig Hogan if you wish.
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/paleofood.html
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Some who likes sausage but abstains?
Check out my recent post superinfinity
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/this-is-cool-you-reckon-your-raw-paleo/msg13718/?topicseen#msg13718 (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/this-is-cool-you-reckon-your-raw-paleo/msg13718/?topicseen#msg13718)
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SuperInfinity recently tried this on the paleofood list, and was blown out of the water/shot down in flames.
Search the archive for the name Padraig Hogan if you wish.
http://listserv.icors.org/archives/paleofood.html
You must be joking. I gave my reasons there as I did here, just because they chose to ignore them all and say: "you're wrong and the fossil record is wrong and the cutting-edge of paleoanthropology from the 1960s allegedly agrees with me, now try and come up with some credible arguments apart from the entire world of modern respected paleoanthropology."
I sense great passion and sensitivity on your part from the bolded point. I'm not trying to wean you off a diet with a very large percentage of meat, just saying it's extremely rare that paleo man would have ate such a huge percentage.
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Some who likes sausage but abstains?
Check out my recent post superinfinity
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/this-is-cool-you-reckon-your-raw-paleo/msg13718/?topicseen#msg13718 (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/this-is-cool-you-reckon-your-raw-paleo/msg13718/?topicseen#msg13718)
Last time I checked sausages don't occur in nature, and I believe red meat can give you cancer.
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I think its fine SuperInfinity brought up this topic. I came from vegan and fruitarian teachings and I understand where he's coming from.
Maybe this is why I'll soon be experimenting with zero carb to find out for myself. Experiments are exciting.
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I sense great passion and sensitivity on your part from the bolded point. I'm not trying to wean you off a diet with a very large percentage of meat, just saying it's extremely rare that paleo man would have ate such a huge percentage.
What would have been eaten?
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You must be joking.
I'm not trying to wean you off a diet with a very large percentage of meat, just saying it's extremely rare that paleo man would have ate such a huge percentage.
No joke, and I eat only 20% meat. The rest is tallow.
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What would have been eaten?
He was mostly frugivoral.
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He was mostly frugivoral.
Outside of the tropics, and there was plenty of paleo time when sizeable human population were outside of the tropics, I don't believe that is possible to survive on. I'm not even sure it's possible in the tropics, I was at an island in the Caribbean once and only saw coconut trees and banana trees and the bananas were small and green and even they weren't wild but still not very appetizing.
I agree that it appears humans are closer to something like a bonobo, which eats lots of plants, but all of the other evidence I've seen points to humans eating mostly meat for a pretty long time.
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At first I tried it without brushing my teeth.... it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit).
I think the reason they get like that is because they're already malformed and fragile in nearly all of us from early childhood. In the (now free) 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration it's shown really well how those people didn't brush at all and yet have teeth far better than we did. Yes I realise they had meat, fish, natural, organic cow's milk etc... but the point is that teeth degeneration is based on civilization a lot more than any particular diet.
Come on, man, you're talking to a forum full of people who have spent years
1. recovering from tooth damage from fruit-heavy diets
2. Reading forums like this one, where people are complaining about tooth damage from fruit-heavy diets
You cannot convince us of this. It's like convincing Captain Cook that Hawaiians aren't cannibals. LOL
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At first I tried it without brushing my teeth.... it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit).
I think the reason they get like that is because they're already malformed and fragile in nearly all of us from early childhood.
Good heavens Padraig! Your dentist is right (which is rare for dentists). Don't give up and sacrifice your teeth to fruitarianism without first at least trying a very low carb Paleo diet.
Normally I don't try to convince vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians (unless they happen to raise some issues that I'd like to crystallize my own thoughts on, which you did initially before you went way off into la-la-land ;-) ), because they often have religious/philosophical/political reasons for choosing their diet, instead of scientific/health reasons and are therefore impervious to reason and logic, and because vegheads are my best allies--they sacrifice their health so that I can eat meats more cheaply. However, you're an Irishman and possibly a relative, based on your last name, so I'll send you at least one more lifeline. Given that you eat some fish, I figure you might possibly listen to some reason.
My teeth were maloccluded from birth and beginning in my late teens to early twenties were highly prone to placque and I developed gum disease. Going standard Paleo (I continued to eat Paleo-style carbs from fruits, nuts, all-natural juices and nut milks--Ray Audette and Loren Cordain actually had discouraged consumption of fruit juices and dried fruits, but I thought they were overly strict about that and I was under lots of pressure from relatives to continue eating significant amounts of carbs) helped, but I continued to have some gum problems despite brushing and flossing multiple times a day and getting professional cleanings every three months.
After I started the transition toward VLC-Paleo, I came across some posts in another forum by Lex Rooker and another poster named "DelFuego" while looking for tips on making pemmican that were quite encouraging and motivated me to accelerate my change. Lex had reported that his loose teeth firmed up on a raw meat/fat/organs diet and within just a few weeks of going semi-raw, VLC-Paleo I experienced the same thing--and I was not even as strict as Lex (I was still eating some berries and greens and small amounts of low-sugar, all-natural juices). The more I've moved toward Lex's diet, the better my dental health, skin health and overall well being have been, so I recommend you read Lex's story before you trash Paleo diets that are high in flesh foods. You can find it here: http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/
After just a month or so of transitioning to a very-low-carb (VLC), high meat/fat Paleo diet, including a significant amount of raw meats, I found I didn't need to brush and floss as much and no longer needed my prescription fluoride rinse. My hygienist was impressed with the improvement in my teeth and gums and asked if I'd been brushing and flossing more. I said no, I cut back on sweet drinks like fruit juices (I didn't tell her that I was also eating lots of meat and fat, including raw, had cut out nightshades and winter squashes completely, was actually brushing and flossing less, not more, and had stopped using my Px fluoride). She was puzzled and silent, but seemed to just barely accept that such remarkable results might be possible from that (she would have been more perplexed if I told her the whole truth :-) ).
If you research Irish ancestry you'll learn that the Irish are descended from hunter-gatherers. Not fruitarians, hunter-gatherers. Embrace your heritage and your health will improve! Reject it, and you'll pay a price.
In the (now free) 1939 book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration it's shown really well how those people didn't brush at all and yet have teeth far better than we did. Yes I realise they had meat, fish, natural, organic cow's milk etc... but the point is that teeth degeneration is based on civilization a lot more than any particular diet.
Think about it. Why were none of the people that Price studied fruitarian? If it's such a great diet, why did Price find so many peoples who were not fruitarian and healthy, whereas he found no fruitarian tribes?
You still haven't explained where you got the idea that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. The book you mentioned, Man the Hunted, doesn't make that argument, nor did Darwin, and frugivorous apes are not humans, so where did you hear this? Surely you didn't base it on a quote or two from Darwin? Darwin must not have believed strongly in his flippant comments about a frugivorous diet, because during his travels to document his theory of evolution through natural selection, he ate an owl, armadillos, agoutis (the rodents were "best meat I ever tasted," he said), a puma, an ostrich-like bird called a Rhea, iguanas and giant tortoises. He liked giant tortoises so much "he loaded up 48 of them aboard the Beagle, to be eaten on the journey back!" (Source: http://www.neatorama.com/2008/12/04/10-fun-facts-about-charles-darwin/)
Also, if so many people think that Stone Agers were fruitarians, as you seem to think, then why are there no Paleo-fruitarian diet forums?
Plus, I know a vegetarian who ate lots of fruit and the enamel on her teeth deteriorated away, and a monk who lost all his teeth when his order required him to do frequent bread-and-water fasts, and another vegetarian who couldn't get pregnant until she started eating some meat, and I've read the accounts of numerous ex-vegetarians and ex-vegans who have done better on low-carb, flesh-heavy diets.
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SuperInfinity,
I came down with Ulcerative Colitis in February of 2008. Not to get too graphic but it basically entails painful bleeding into the toilet about thirty times a day. I don't know if that falls under your "metabolic syndrome" but it's definitely some kind of syndrome and it sucks.
The first diet that was recommended was fruitarian. I tried it for a couple of months and got exponentially worse. I don't want to see another banana ever again, seriously.
I tried many other diets and I eventually found out that the more raw red meat and less carbs I ate, the better I got.
I now eat only raw red meat, fat, and organs, (like Lex) and I am totally cured of this disease, which is considered "incurable" by the experts in the medical community. You know, the ones who told you that red meat might give you cancer. There are people out there with this disease having their colons taken out when they could be cured like me, through diet, our proper human diet.
Not only has this diet cured my Ulcerative Colitis, but it also cured a skin condition that I had since I was a child called Keratosis Pilaris. This disease was also deemed "incurable" by all those really smart dermatologists out there.
I also had a dental cavity in my front tooth that has remineralized right before my eyes.
Sometimes we have to let go of our dogmas. You have to open your mind to the fact that you may be very wrong. I've had to do this in many aspects of my life, especially after learning how wrong the mainstream nutritional advice is.
We are told things by the certified "experts" in the communities of medicine, science, history, religion, etc. and many of these people are just repeaters. They are passed on false knowledge brought about by faulty scientific methods or research and they repeat it to the laity. It is not to be questioned. There is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Well, now I'm starting to rant so I'll just leave it at that.
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I also had a dental cavity in my front tooth that has remineralized right before my eyes.
Cavity remineralization... my dream for my kids.
Maybe my experimentation with just raw beef will drive them to the cure tooth decay way.
Can you describe more about your cure tooth decay experience?
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No joke, and I eat only 20% meat. The rest is tallow.
why do you eat only 20% meat ?
what amount of meat and fat do you eat ?
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My tooth remineralised, really noticed quick healing on zero carb.
I also had IBS for 10 years (imagine 10 years of constipation/bleeding/bloating) supposedly incurable. I found eating junk food and drinking beer was better than eating fruit (prunes)
I'm not anti fruit just it's not a human staple.
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why do you eat only 20% meat ?
what amount of meat and fat do you eat ?
I have trouble actually doing this, partly because I have to eat yucky ungrassfed beef fat, until I get some help trans-shipping Slanker's tallow to Canada.
Here are the contents of two stickies that I've pasted on my desktop; they are from the paleofood list.
> The key -- and very few well-informed, well-meaning low carb paleo
> advocates get this -- is to LIMIT PROTEIN INTAKE to approximately 100g
> per day, making up the balance in quality fats. For those starting out,
> it can be hard to do for the first few days. But once over that hump,
> it becomes almost instinctive.
Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Jim Swayze
so, for me, 1.45g±0.25/kg=~125g protein, plus 223g tallow=348g pemmican. Maximum, to avoid gluconeogenesis and create optimum therapeutic
> window for human metabolism
--------------------------------
Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11
1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and
Physical Performance":
"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.
The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.
At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition,
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."
2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your
weight. There are a few more calculations involved for the
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.
Here's a quote from the book:
"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you
can eat it in unlimited quantities. When you eat more protein than
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is
largely converted into glucose and burned as fuel. It turns you
into a sugar maker and sugar burner! This is not desirable or healthy."
Jim Swayze
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Sometimes we have to let go of our dogmas. You have to open your mind to the fact that you may be very wrong. I've had to do this in many aspects of my life, especially after learning how wrong the mainstream nutritional advice is.
We are told things by the certified "experts" in the communities of medicine, science, history, religion, etc. and many of these people are just repeaters. They are passed on false knowledge brought about by faulty scientific methods or research and they repeat it to the laity. It is not to be questioned. There is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Well, now I'm starting to rant so I'll just leave it at that.
That's bullcrap. I have no dogma whatsoever about food. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE.
I STRENUOUSLY EMPHASIZED THAT I WOULD NOT TRY TO IMPRESS MY DIET ON OTHERS, JUST THAT I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT PALEO MAN ATE AND THE CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THERE. YOU'RE THE GUYS TRYING TO CONVERT ME!!!
The fact is that I am doing better than I ever did in my life because I'm mainly fruitarian. The other fact is that the certified "experts" are all going over to the high-protein side. So do not talk to ME about letting "go of our dogmas", fruitarianism is the least dogmatic of ALL.
If I felt there was a chance I could be "wrong" I would simply eat more eggs, more fish and maybe some meat. IMO there's a chance the vegans who don't eat any protein might be wrong... that's why I'm not a total vegan.
PaleoPhil as before it's going to take me ages to even read all that, nevermind respond to it. Maybe I will later.
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The problem I see is to eat so much fat with 100g of protein.
Is pemmican with nearly 2 times more fat than dried meat really tasty ?
I have trouble actually doing this, partly because I have to eat yucky ungrassfed beef fat, until I get some help trans-shipping Slanker's tallow to Canada.
Here are the contents of two stickies that I've pasted on my desktop; they are from the paleofood list.
> The key -- and very few well-informed, well-meaning low carb paleo
> advocates get this -- is to LIMIT PROTEIN INTAKE to approximately 100g
> per day, making up the balance in quality fats. For those starting out,
> it can be hard to do for the first few days. But once over that hump,
> it becomes almost instinctive.
Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Jim Swayze
so, for me, 1.45g±0.25/kg=~125g protein, plus 223g tallow=348g pemmican. Maximum, to avoid gluconeogenesis and create optimum therapeutic
> window for human metabolism
--------------------------------
Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11
1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and
Physical Performance":
"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.
The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.
At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition,
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."
2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your
weight. There are a few more calculations involved for the
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.
Here's a quote from the book:
"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you
can eat it in unlimited quantities. When you eat more protein than
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is
largely converted into glucose and burned as fuel. It turns you
into a sugar maker and sugar burner! This is not desirable or healthy."
Jim Swayze
-
The problem I see is to eat so much fat with 100g of protein.
Is pemmican with nearly 2 times more fat than dried meat really tasty ?
No problem, fat satisfies.
The only pemmican I've made so far was with the few pounds of grassfed fat/tallow. There will be no more for several months, however I could not stop eating snacking on it, even though it tasted like tallow soup with a mild jerky flavour.
This is a very weird way of eating. But there is no going back.
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I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT PALEO MAN ATE AND THE CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THERE. YOU'RE THE GUYS TRYING TO CONVERT ME!!!
Snicker. May as well put on your paranoid hat, because everyone is trying to convert you, from Banting in the 19th century (he must have seen you coming) through Stefansson and Blake F. Donaldson, the troll L. Cordain and the archaelogists who had the bones of paleoman analyzed and found their composition identical to those of wild African lions. Lions not known to eat much fruit.
Possible even the fool Wrongham is against you.
If your diet is working for you, great, but please be aware that some here and on the paleofood list have tried the same and found that it did not work for them. It would not hurt for you to show some respect for that hard-won experience.
The school of hard knocks is still the best teacher.
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Snicker. May as well put on your paranoid hat, because everyone is trying to convert you, from Banting in the 19th century (he must have seen you coming) through Stefansson and Blake F. Donaldson, the troll L. Cordain and the archaelogists who had the bones of paleoman analyzed and found their composition identical to those of wild African lions. Lions not known to eat much fruit.
Again read Man The Hunted, I said that they didn't explicit/contentious claims like: "man was 95% fruitarian" and there's only a couple of pages dedicated to it. However the pages are also full of references to people showing that man clearly ate mostly plants (keeping in mind that mostly can mean 40% meat). I'm no expert in the field (although I ordered a definitive paleoanthropy textbook: The Human Career yesterday so maybe I'll get there), but they offer many arguments against that.
Possible even the fool Wrongham is against you.
Thanks, good to see that you can give a small compliment/respect to my views as well and are not just totally one-sided.
If your diet is working for you, great, but please be aware that some here and on the paleofood list have tried the same and found that it did not work for them. It would not hurt for you to show some respect for that hard-won experience.
The school of hard knocks is still the best teacher.
It's been 3-4 years since I started eating fully raw to begin with, it wasn't that I read about this thing online or anything so there wasn't any 'dogma' or 'theory' to it (remember I didn't wash my teeth at first)....I just felt it as being a natural thing and something I really liked. I always felt raw was better, I wanted to go all the way. I was doing it the classical way. The only reason I've gone back on the bad foods is because of stress and not understanding how to keep off the bad foods... which are like drugs. But I think I can do it right now... I've been "clean" for two or three months depending on how you view it (sure maybe once a month I like to remember what curry and chips taste like again... maybe I'll give that up as in my own theory if I stuck with fruit I would be pleasured tastefully better as well, I don't know... some people have cheat days every week where they REALLY go all out).
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well if you've only been doing a real fruitarian diet for two to three months i dont think that qualifies you to say that it's the best diet for you. you gotta give it more time. when i tried fruitarian i felt pretty good for a good solid two months but then started literally deteriorating. teeth were horrible and i lost way too much weight. i'd give it time
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Well said, William and Yon Yonson.
That's bullcrap. I have no dogma whatsoever about food. It's the EXACT OPPOSITE. ....
SuperInfinity--please go easy on Rob. Remember, you were the one who mentioned that you tried fruitarianism without brushing your teeth and "it ended up with having a tooth removed and many fillings.... now I wash all the time and my teeth are not so bad (even though my dentist keeps telling me to keep off fruit)"--so he is just trying to help. He's being a nice guy and did not deserve to be responded to with "that's bullcrap," regardless of whether it was technically justified or not.
Rob's trying to let you know that those cavities might not have happened if you had been eating raw red meat, fat, and organs like Lex Rooker and I (mostly) do. I can personally confirm nearly everything in Rob's excellent post (it's actually one of the best I've ever seen--thanks for the excellent post, Rob).
One thing Rob reminded me of that I stupidly neglected to mention: I too have experienced tooth remineralization (which I didn't know was possible!), in my other dental improvements. There was a hole in my tooth that was exposed to the root and extremely painful. Since transitioning to a near-Lex diet the hole has partly filled in, is no longer painful at all--even when the hygienist scrapes it--and I no longer require fluoride rinse to treat it. I've NEVER heard of anyone claiming that a fruitarian diet led to tooth remineralization.
In addition to Rob, wodgina6722 and me, at least one other raw paleo dieter has reported tooth remineralization (check out Michael Grogan's story at http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/michael-grogan/). So it seems to be more than just an isolated phenomenon.
I think that Rob, Lex, Michael Grogan and I have all tried some sort of plant-based diet in the past, whether fruitarian or vegetarian, and it didn't work for any of us. So we've tried both a plant-based diet and a heavily flesh-based diet and found the latter to be superior. Have you even tried the latter? If not, how do you know it won't work for you? Remember the old saying, "Don't knock it till you've tried it." Why not give it a 4 week trial? If it doesn't work you, then you can have some ammunition to trash us with! :-)
The fact is that I am doing better than I ever did in my life because I'm mainly fruitarian.
That's great...except for that little issue with having to "wash" your teeth "all the time." I'm not criticizing you about that--just letting you know that an even better outcome might be possible.
The other fact is that the certified "experts" are all going over to the high-protein side.
Wow! You mean Dean Ornish, Mehmet Oz, John Robbins, T. Colin Campbell, Michael Klaper, and Neal Barnard have all adopted a high-protein, flesh-based diet? Are you sure you aren't exaggerating just a bit? ;-)
PaleoPhil as before it's going to take me ages to even read all that, nevermind respond to it. Maybe I will later.
Padraig, if you do read it and act upon it I believe you will benefit from it, but I can't make you consider any of our opinions here, of course, including mine. Normally I wouldn't care at all whether you did or not, but being that you might be related, my other relatives wouldn't forgive me if I didn't at least offer some help. :-)
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Good heavens Padraig! Your dentist is right (which is rare for dentists). Don't give up and sacrifice your teeth to fruitarianism without first at least trying a very low carb Paleo diet.
The thing is PaleoPhil, I'm interested in eating: 1. how I want to eat and feel like eating, 2. how I'm evolved to eat and 3. taking into account other people's advice and evidence so I can "patch" up things, eg. calcium.
Fair enough? Now:
1. I'm RIGHT NOW surviving best on fruit, it's true that I haven't gone for years on this diet before but others have. I have a feeling I'll be posting here in a year's time, you can see how it went. I don't want to eat any more protein. Okay that's a small fib to be perfectly honestly, I felt a little like eating 2 eggs today (scrambled, as I don't trust raw animal products) but as I've said, lately I've been cutting all animal protein down....
2. Considering that paleo man did not eat a very low carb diet very often IN MY OPINION and if he did it would have been for a few 100,000 years at MOST, I feel he is not evolved much for it and I'm not going to eat that way.
3. WHERE ARE YOUR VITAMINS?
WHERE ARE YOUR MINERALS?
WHERE ARE YOUR PHYTOCHEMICALS?
EVER HEARD OF FIBRE AND ITS IMPORTANCE???
There's not many around is there?! For the love of god try and eat more fruit.
Red meat is proven to give you cancer. Raw meat and fish can give you parasites and worms. Your bones will fall apart because of your acidy environment. Your kidneys will fail. It's the high-protein diet that cannot be kept up long term.
This is as opposed to what, alleged teeth problems?
Normally I don't try to convince vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians (unless they happen to raise some issues that I'd like to crystallize my own thoughts on, which you did initially before you went way off into la-la-land ;-) ), because they often have religious/philosophical/political reasons for choosing their diet, instead of scientific/health reasons and are therefore impervious to reason and logic, and because vegheads are my best allies--they sacrifice their health so that I can eat meats more cheaply.
Palophil, let's get a bit of perspective here. I'm not a 100% fruitarian or even vegan, I have fish and sometimes eggs. I have green tea and supplements and cocoa. 90% fruitarian is VASTLY less controversial and "fruity" as 90% meat and the latter is nothing like paleo man 95% of time plus in my opinion.
Any doctor or nearly any person would tell you that 90% meat is bad and VASTLY more extreme/hardcore than 90% fruitarian.
ESPECIALLY raw meat. It's insane... sorry, I don't often go there, but I had to this time.
However, you're an Irishman and possibly a relative, based on your last name, so I'll send you at least one more lifeline. Given that you eat some fish, I figure you might possibly listen to some reason.
Animals are your relatives as well and you eat them. I'm not using this as a part of my argument as to better/worse for health, I'm just throwing you a philosophical err... bone. Would you get a knife and murder a boar by slitting its neck and then eat it? I don't have that instinct... it's not in me. Maybe YOU are evolved for it, not me.
My teeth were maloccluded from birth and beginning in my late teens to early twenties were highly prone to placque and I developed gum disease. Going standard Paleo (I continued to eat Paleo-style carbs from fruits, nuts, all-natural juices and nut milks--Ray Audette and Loren Cordain actually had discouraged consumption of fruit juices and dried fruits, but I thought they were overly strict about that and I was under lots of pressure from relatives to continue eating significant amounts of carbs) helped, but I continued to have some gum problems despite brushing and flossing multiple times a day and getting professional cleanings every three months.
After I started the transition toward VLC-Paleo, I came across some posts in another forum by Lex Rooker and another poster named "DelFuego" while looking for tips on making pemmican that were quite encouraging and motivated me to accelerate my change. Lex had reported that his loose teeth firmed up on a raw meat/fat/organs diet and within just a few weeks of going semi-raw, VLC-Paleo I experienced the same thing--and I was not even as strict as Lex (I was still eating some berries and greens and small amounts of low-sugar, all-natural juices). The more I've moved toward Lex's diet, the better my dental health, skin health and overall well being have been, so I recommend you read Lex's story before you trash Paleo diets that are high in flesh foods. You can find it here: http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/
My skin was terrible and is now slowly getting to perfection on my fruitarian-esque diet. It was terrible despite all the green tea, huge amounts of fruit, vitamins etc. etc. I was taking, the only thing to slowly kill off the little bits of acne was the fruitarian-esque diet.
After just a month or so of transitioning to a very-low-carb (VLC), high meat/fat Paleo diet, including a significant amount of raw meats, I found I didn't need to brush and floss as much and no longer needed my prescription fluoride rinse. My hygienist was impressed with the improvement in my teeth and gums and asked if I'd been brushing and flossing more. I said no, I cut back on sweet drinks like fruit juices (I didn't tell her that I was also eating lots of meat and fat, including raw, had cut out nightshades and winter squashes completely, was actually brushing and flossing less, not more, and had stopped using my Px fluoride). She was puzzled and silent, but seemed to just barely accept that such remarkable results might be possible from that (she would have been more perplexed if I told her the whole truth :-) ).
Well good for you, everyone can do their own thing and see what works for them. Don't take this the wrong way but have you ever considered writing testimonials for flashy products sites....?
If you research Irish ancestry you'll learn that the Irish are descended from hunter-gatherers. Not fruitarians, hunter-gatherers. Embrace your heritage and your health will improve! Reject it, and you'll pay a price.
Think about it. Why were none of the people that Price studied fruitarian? If it's such a great diet, why did Price find so many peoples who were not fruitarian and healthy, whereas he found no fruitarian tribes?
My argument is that hunter-gatherers were more gatherers than they were hunters. Also there was a very long period when Irish people ate almost nothing but potatoes!!! If you couldn't survive well on potatoes (and to a lesser extent turnips and so on), then tough ****... you would be knocked out of existence by the famine if your ancestors lived through that especially. We're evolved to eat potatoes! But wait neither you or I eat any while the rest of Ireland eats them all the time... :o Okay moving on from that unsettling (and probably not really too important) point....
You still haven't explained where you got the idea that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. The book you mentioned, Man the Hunted, doesn't make that argument, nor did Darwin, and frugivorous apes are not humans, so where did you hear this? Surely you didn't base it on a quote or two from Darwin? Darwin must not have believed strongly in his flippant comments about a frugivorous diet, because during his travels to document his theory of evolution through natural selection, he ate an owl, armadillos, agoutis (the rodents were "best meat I ever tasted," he said), a puma, an ostrich-like bird called a Rhea, iguanas and giant tortoises. He liked giant tortoises so much "he loaded up 48 of them aboard the Beagle, to be eaten on the journey back!" (Source: http://www.neatorama.com/2008/12/04/10-fun-facts-about-charles-darwin/)
The book does make the argument a bit. Look at page 226 to page 231. They explained it better than I could, why type out things when they explain it better??? All of us here know (don't we?) that the appointed food "experts" often don't have an absolute clue about food (especially when it comes to being sensible). However I believe these guys are completely honest, there is nothing they could gain from it. I don't believe it could be made up much more than I believe evolution could be made up... big rant sorry: (as I was saying in a very lengthy and head-banging-off-desk argument with a poor soul on another forum, evolution COULD be all be made up, the fossil record could be made up, creationism COULD be true in certain definite ways and the big bang all rubbish... I'm the most anti-creationist person you could ever come across, but I still hold out the truth that it COULD be true, we're only told things about evolution and base our beliefs by what we're told.... okay sorry... rambling....)
Also, if so many people think that Stone Agers were fruitarians, as you seem to think, then why are there no Paleo-fruitarian diet forums?
Pure, unashamed, ad hominem. This is the same things you're saying over and over.
Plus, I know a vegetarian who ate lots of fruit and the enamel on her teeth deteriorated away, and a monk who lost all his teeth when his order required him to do frequent bread-and-water fasts, and another vegetarian who couldn't get pregnant until she started eating some meat, and I've read the accounts of numerous ex-vegetarians and ex-vegans who have done better on low-carb, flesh-heavy diets.
You know this person and that person and the Fruitarian Fairy came and stole their teeth and raped them while they slept and made them infertile is all hearsay and almost certainly all complete nonsense. Millions of vegetarians and vegans get pregnant every year.
One thing Rob reminded me of that I stupidly neglected to mention: I too have experienced tooth remineralization (which I didn't know was possible!), in my other dental improvements. There was a hole in my tooth that was exposed to the root and extremely painful. Since transitioning to a near-Lex diet the hole has partly filled in, is no longer painful at all--even when the hygienist scrapes it--and I no longer require fluoride rinse to treat it. I've NEVER heard of anyone claiming that a fruitarian diet led to tooth remineralization.
Back to the teeth AGAIN...? Fine, I do find it somewhat interesting to hear about your teeth remineralization.
In addition to Rob, wodgina6722 and me, at least one other raw paleo dieter has reported tooth remineralization (check out Michael Grogan's story at http://old.rawpaleodiet.com/michael-grogan/). So it seems to be more than just an isolated phenomenon.
I don't want sound obnoxious but after hearing about remineralization I thought maybe the high animal protein diet could do that. After reading this, I'm inclined to think that it probably IS a mainly isolated phenomenon
I think that Rob, Lex, Michael Grogan and I have all tried some sort of plant-based diet in the past, whether fruitarian or vegetarian, and it didn't work for any of us. So we've tried both a plant-based diet and a heavily flesh-based diet and found the latter to be superior. Have you even tried the latter? If not, how do you know it won't work for you? Remember the old saying, "Don't knock it till you've tried it." Why not give it a 4 week trial? If it doesn't work you, then you can have some ammunition to trash us with! :-)
That's great...except for that little issue with having to "wash" your teeth "all the time." I'm not criticizing you about that--just letting you know that an even better outcome might be possible.
I DID. I tried it and I hated it. I felt terrible. I said to myself never again. I've seen the problems of smoking so I won't do it, the same with high animal protein. I won't do that to my health. In my view paleo-man was 100000x more evolved for my diet of almost no animal protein. Maybe Neo-man ate much more like yours, I'll agree with you there.
You should call your diet the "neo diet"... the diet of Neolithic people. :) I certainly wouldn't argue with it. Start up your own website about it, rawneoforum.com Don't forget to also consume other humans from time to time as neo man also probably did considering his life expectancy was about 20.
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Let's all be on topic as we are discussing how much fruit / veg and how much raw meat.
The thing is PaleoPhil, I'm interested in eating: 1. how I want to eat and feel like eating, 2. how I'm evolved to eat and 3. taking into account other people's advice and evidence so I can "patch" up things, eg. calcium.
We are all sharing our experiences where we feel we have been benefiting. Some do better with more fruit / veg, some do better with more meat.
1. I'm RIGHT NOW surviving best on fruit, it's true that I haven't gone for years on this diet before but others have. I have a feeling I'll be posting here in a year's time, you can see how it went.
I was on this diet and it served me well for 6 months? Wai Diet.
I don't want to eat any more protein. Okay that's a small fib to be perfectly honestly, I felt a little like eating 2 eggs today (scrambled, as I don't trust raw animal products) but as I've said, lately I've been cutting all animal protein down....
Don't want to eat protein??? Scrambled eggs? Don't trust raw animal products??? Maybe you need better sources of animal products you can trust. Cutting down animal protein... are you getting old?
2. Considering that paleo man did not eat a very low carb diet very often IN MY OPINION and if he did it would have been for a few 100,000 years at MOST, I feel he is not evolved much for it and I'm not going to eat that way.
This we do not know. This is why we are all self experimenting with food ratios to see what works best. Some thrive on more meat, some on less.
3. WHERE ARE YOUR VITAMINS?
Blood, organs, some fruit, some vegs.
WHERE ARE YOUR MINERALS?
Blood, organs, some fruit, some vegs.
WHERE ARE YOUR PHYTOCHEMICALS?
Blood, organs, some fruit, some vegs.
EVER HEARD OF FIBRE AND ITS IMPORTANCE???
Fibre is bad for you. I subscribe to the idea that the marketed fiber does us no good. Search for Fiber Menace. http://www.fibermenace.com/
Red meat is proven to give you cancer.
You must be pointing to COOKED meat. Raw meat is cool.
Raw meat and fish can give you parasites and worms.
Fruits and vegs and the air you breath has parasites and worms. I have zappers, herbal dewormers and know beam ray operators... parasites don't scare me. Learn these tools and stop being afraid of parasites when they misbehave.
Your bones will fall apart because of your acidy environment. Your kidneys will fail. It's the high-protein diet that cannot be kept up long term.
only with COOKED MEAT. This is RAW PALEO... remember?
This is as opposed to what, alleged teeth problems?
If raw paleo diet with lots of meat in it make our teeth strong, this means our bones have grown stronger at the same time.
Any doctor or nearly any person would tell you that 90% meat is bad and VASTLY more extreme/hardcore than 90% fruitarian.
ESPECIALLY raw meat. It's insane... sorry, I don't often go there, but I had to this time.
Why is eating raw meat insane? When 100% raw fruitarian did not work for me and I added raw meat it invigorated me. Raw meat is the super food that was missing in my diet all along.
He he he, you need to slow down and be calmer, my friend. Less sweet fruit, more fat. Be calm. Try more avocados for fat instead of sweet fruit.
This is getting funnier and funnier. I came from vegan and fruitarian teachings and I can understand your passion.
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Raw animal products work, and that's it. You can call it a hobgoblin diet for all I care, I like life. Too many people would be dead on your diet. Have you ever even eaten RAF, and if so, how often and for how long? I suspect you have no experience at all. It's ok, but doesn't sound like you'll last.
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YOu might want to check in with yourself and your opinions and see how many come from your experience, and how many have come from books or lectures etc... Promise you, there are a lot of us here who had the same concerns as you have. We had acquired them just as your probably have. My suggestion, either let go and try something new for yourself, if that even feels right for you, or find a group that supports your way of thinking. Theories and concepts abound. There will always be those who believe what you believe. Most here aren't much interested anymore with concepts, more so with practice or experience.
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well if you've only been doing a real fruitarian diet for two to three months i dont think that qualifies you to say that it's the best diet for you. you gotta give it more time. when i tried fruitarian i felt pretty good for a good solid two months but then started literally deteriorating. teeth were horrible and i lost way too much weight. i'd give it time
+1
That happened to me too! ;) My gums started to bleed after 3 months of raw fruit and veg diet. I was always hungry, lost loads of weight, had terrible mood swings and felt euphoric after consuming too much of sweet fruit.
I think that some people sometime enjoy that euphoria too much, they get addicted to it and start to believe that fruitarianism is devine :-))))))))))))))))))
Many people are addicted to sugar and fruits have loads of it. Fruitarians mistakenly believe that sugar in fruit is different to refined sugar and is safe to consume in large quantaties, but it's totally wrong.
Our body still have to produce insuline to get rid of excessive sugar levels in our blood.
Anyway I don't have time to write an essay about the dangers of fruitarianism. All I want to say is that I stay away from fruits as much as possible. I eat raw fat, raw fish, egg yolks and a little bit of raw meat and I get enough fiber, vitamins and minerals to be able to lead a happy/busy life full of joy and love. And I thank God every day for pointing me in the right direction. I've never been so happy in all my life!
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Last time I checked sausages don't occur in nature, and I believe red meat can give you cancer.
You're probably talking about cooked red meat? Are cooked fruits good for you? what would happen if you eat only cooked fruits every day?
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FRUITS = POISON.
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FRUITS = POISON.
Oh... not for everyone. And certainly not all fruits.
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Post in these three areas and read everything:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/wai-dieters/useful-anti-cookinganti-palaeo-studies/
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/welcoming-commitee/welcome-new-members!-please-read/
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/
I'm not sure where else you fit.
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FRUITS = POISON.
;D ;D ;D thanks for that, you made me smile!
My favourite fruit is pineapple and I love grapes ( black and red/seeded). I don't consider them as poison, but I do eat them rarely as a treat and to be honest I feel less energetic after eating them (probably because of the high sugar content).
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There are tons of books and academic papers supporting the argument that it was animal protein that fueled the brain size increase that humans are so distinct for. I have never found any serious academic work indicating anything else....maybe Man The Hunted by Sussman or Wrangham's cooked tuber hypothesis, but I've looked and looked and really haven't found anything else. Answer me this: since modern domestic fruit didn't exist, what raw vegan plant source could have supported human brain development, considering our need for DHA and iodine too...?
The all-meat diet might not be human's ancestral diet, but it does have a proven track record in the traditional societies like the Inuit, whereas fruitarianismish vegan doesn't. Fruitarianism is even completely unlike what apes eat given that domestic fruit is so different from its wild counterparts.
But why would anyone want to eat a chimp diet? Chimps typically lose their teeth by 35, minus modern dental care a fruitarian would lose their teeth even sooner given the sugar content of modern fruit.
Vegans are fighting a losing battle when they insist their diet is the natural human ancestral one. I don't see why they can't stick to bashing factory farming and making ethical arguments, which make a zillion times more sense. Modern vegans seem to do OK...their diet doesn't work very well for most of us on this forum, but I have nothing against them unless they insist their diet is a natural one.
Personally, I don't eat sausages or gazillions of eggs.... neither is really very paleo. I don't eat tons of protein either, I don't feel so great doing that. Fruitarianism doesn't seem to be working so great for you...you don't have to eat all animal either!
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Raw vegan/fruitarian propagandism over wellbeing and personal efficacy (a sad situation indeed)...I'm another recovering raw vegan transitioning to "no/lo carbage" RAF to find the abundance of vitamins (particularly) and whatnot that simply are not offered for our GI tracts by the flora of the Earth...(or not in my experiential growth anyway)
I once believed that if one could culture the optimal, original endogenous (as well as exogenous) ecosystem (bio-terrain, whatever vernacular you care to use), one could be self-sufficient enough to subsist on anything that could be considered seed-bearing fruit...Woe was me for that strange, misguided period in my journey to a more favourable place.
Sadly, I read odd anecdotes of teeth healing from raw vegans (without any sound substantiation, other than simply "healing"), which is the reason I originally chose raw veganism over raw paleo. My tooth enamel loss intensified with all incarnations/variations/ratios of raw veganism (with cleansing/flushing/fasting).
Let's face it, if one can't even maintain tooth enamel and/or hold teeth in the jaw bone, what else is precipitating unnoticed in your daily metabolic life?
One wonders why traditional cultures didn't have the "innate" wisdom to just stick to flora...Was it perhaps for self-preservation and self-perpetuation?!
For me, raw veganism was a means to an end, not an end...Don't believe the hype and remember that hindsight is always 20/20.
I have to thank goodsamaritan for encouraging me to join this unmatched and good-natured community of well-intentioned, sound reasoning friends (you might say efficacy-oriented, altruistic practitioners!). I was in the position that I was already well progressed in the biliary flushing, parasite cleansing etc. stakes (general debris-clearing), yet I had exhausted all of the raw vegan approaches, which were rapidly deteriorating my complete health (e.g. enamel loss starting to manifest on all teeth - chipping, translucent on edges, no strength in bite).
How are you managing with the fast moving sugars (insulin response) in most of the hybridised domesticated (often seedless and nutrient-sparse) fruits of today? What about your daily fatty acid profile (n-3, n-6, dha etc.)? What about those fat-soluble vitamins that most compromised GI tracts have difficulty in converting from the plant-based precursors? What about bile flow for uptake of fats and fat-soluble vitamins? No vegan guru ever addressed the matter of fat-soluble vitamin deficiency (the almost pathological loss of teeth being a major indicator!). All the minerals and transmutation in the cosmos won't drive substance into the tissues without their required vitamins...
If you've already lost teeth/enamel, consider the fact that your deficient diet might be tantamount to self-abuse, which is absolutely contrary to the self-preserving, self-perpetuating aspect of true nature. Man, your remaining teeth are crying out to you to change your ways and bring yourself back into bio-balance. Swallow your pride and forget the dogma of fruitarianism.
So you think your terminal ileum bacteria are producing enough cobalamin (B12) to manage potentially fatal homocysteine levels?! Let me guess, you're eating sun-dried dirt/clay from different areas of the Earth, full of many species of probiotics that will seed your terminal ileum, facilitating endogenous B12 synthesis?
If anything, know that a lack of fat-soluble vitamins is the reason why you struggled to maintain those teeth (those vitamin-activated claws in the protein matrix in the teeth/bones just letting go of their minerals and not being able to retrieve any back). Bones and teeth are not rocks but living tissues with constant mineral turnover, subject to severe loss (or rapid increase) of density and ultimately, sensitivity/weakness/loss.
Eat some raw grass-fed organs (liver, brain - maybe marinated in lemon etc.) along with plenty of raw grass-fed fats/marrow (yum, fat-soluble vitamins) and feel the density of your jaw and teeth increase along with a great, reassuring feeling of strength in your bite - argh! The difference can be felt in a matter of days...
I'll reiterate what everyone else has said...Free your mind, reject the inculcated dogma and embrace efficacy - you will fall in love with yourself on account of your swift action to safeguard what's left of your good and most noble self!
Self-preservation, self-perpetuation!
Enjoy...Bye bye so-called true heritage!
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There are tons of books and academic papers supporting the argument that it was animal protein that fueled the brain size increase that humans are so distinct for. I have never found any serious academic work indicating anything else....maybe Man The Hunted by Sussman or Wrangham's cooked tuber hypothesis, but I've looked and looked and really haven't found anything else. Answer me this: since modern domestic fruit didn't exist, what raw vegan plant source could have supported human brain development, considering our need for DHA and iodine too...?
The beach near where I used to live naturally grew salty tasting coconuts and salty tasting sea grapes. I looked sea grapes up just now, and they're supposed to contain a lot of iodine and prevent goiter. SuperInfinity could always suggest we all go on sea grape rich diets. I don't know if it grows on normal beaches though. This was a super rough beach and many (modern) people died from the coarse currents.
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I give up, you people obviously have yourselves set on thinking a particular way.
What sort of a question is it to ask: "Well what vegan foods did they eat?" It's a ridiculous question and it's already been asked of me. I could just as easily ask "Well what animal foods did they eat?"... YES I COULD!!!! If the fruit and vegetables are all gone then so are the animals that depending on them. AGAIN... I KNOW or would assume that during the ice age we adopted a higher meat intake...
I'd make a bet that chimpanzees only lose their teeth like that after being given modern foods. And I will literally bet my right arm that chimps don't go around bawling in unbelievable agony at 40 years old in the wild like humans would if they needed a tooth extraction.
Listen guys, the chimps eat 70%+ fruitarian, 90%+ vegan... and they're the biggest hunters of the other great apes!!! Paleo man likely ran out of food during the stone age and had to go very high on the meat, so you're SOMEWHAT evolved for it. Congratulations.
"But fruit is domesticated, it's not the same thing at all. It's like bread LOLOLOLOLOL"
No fruit is not domesticated. Sweetness isn't something normal people want or will buy more of, why would it be?! Only a person with weight issues would think that. EVEN IF IT WAS, it wouldn't make any difference AND it occurs as much if not more so in meat!!!!!
In my opinion I personally am better off on fruit.
Again, I'll post back in a year and two years and tell you who was right. People have been fruitarians for years... whereas very high protein diets are normally at least curtailed due to bone loss, acid-imbalance, heart problems, death etc.
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I ain't talkin bout no zoo chimps:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110482604/abstract (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110482604/abstract)
Dental pathologies in ten free-ranging chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania
The dental remains of ten adult chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania, were examined for enamel attrition, caries, abscesses, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Age was the underlying factor in the development of dental pathology, in that enamel wear was present to some extent in all ten but was uniformly severe only in the three for whom estimated age at death was 39-43 years. In turn, enamel wear appears to have been the direct cause of abscess development, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Periodontal disease was commonly expressed as alveolar resorption, particularly around the premolars and molars. This involvement was variable in all except the two youngest. Some interesting wear patterns were evident in the form of deep grooves in the upper incisors and dramatic notching of the lower canines. These patterns, and enamel attrition in general, were attributed to normal mastication and to various stripping activities. Only one carious lesion was observed, in a male with an estimated age of 26 years. An accurate assessment of the actual prevalence of caries was obscured by enamel wear and tooth loss in the older individuals.
What sort of a question is it to ask: "Well what vegan foods did they eat?" It's a ridiculous question and it's already been asked of me. I could just as easily ask "Well what animal foods did they eat?"... YES I COULD!!!! If the fruit and vegetables are all gone then so are the animals that depending on them. AGAIN... I KNOW or would assume that during the ice age we adopted a higher meat intake...
Reindeer can eat lichen. We cannot eat lichen. We can eat reindeer.
If you were a smart vegan you would have answered coconut :) Wild coconut is at least a reasonably energy-dense food.
Again, I'll post back in a year and two years and tell you who was right. People have been fruitarians for years... whereas very high protein diets are normally at least curtailed due to bone loss, acid-imbalance, heart problems, death etc.
Wait, you do know about the Inuit don't you? They don't exactly keel over and die at 10, they live longer and healthier lives than most Americans on their native diet.
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@SuperInfinity:
You're merely spouting propaganda and myth, to which you're entitled...
Please provide me with some substantial arguments on the matter of fat-soluble vitamins and the cobalamins...
I'm interested to understand the application of your all-encompassing fruitarianism (if you can convince me, I may join you).
Also, what about cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) at northern latitudes in winter - where are you obtaining that from, if not from UVB rays?! I'm afraid that around these parts, the sun rarely has his hat on...Let me guess, northern latitudes are not the true ecological niche of the average fruitarian...So how're you going to go on in Ireland then?!
Raw veganism is based on nonsense and people like Herbert Shelton (natural hygienist) died prematurely on account of inadequate nutrition.
How long will your spinal column last if you can't even keep your teeth?!
Maybe you'll even make it to breatharianism once you've discovered how to nourish your astral body?!
So you reckon that the domesticated (hybrid) banana bears some semblance to the original, wild banana...The gene pool of those things (just one example) would be nowhere near diverse enough to survive in the wild, outside of the farmer's fence. Do you actually know anything about your only/main source of energy/nutrients?
I pity your approach and your lack of argumentative substance...I invite you to counter my arguments, please...
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I ain't talkin bout no zoo chimps:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110482604/abstract (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/110482604/abstract)
Dental pathologies in ten free-ranging chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania
The dental remains of ten adult chimpanzees from Gombe National Park, Tanzania, were examined for enamel attrition, caries, abscesses, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Age was the underlying factor in the development of dental pathology, in that enamel wear was present to some extent in all ten but was uniformly severe only in the three for whom estimated age at death was 39-43 years. In turn, enamel wear appears to have been the direct cause of abscess development, periodontal disease, and tooth loss. Periodontal disease was commonly expressed as alveolar resorption, particularly around the premolars and molars. This involvement was variable in all except the two youngest. Some interesting wear patterns were evident in the form of deep grooves in the upper incisors and dramatic notching of the lower canines. These patterns, and enamel attrition in general, were attributed to normal mastication and to various stripping activities. Only one carious lesion was observed, in a male with an estimated age of 26 years. An accurate assessment of the actual prevalence of caries was obscured by enamel wear and tooth loss in the older individuals.
Well maybe I should have mentioned this earlier, but that's a sort of gradual wear and tear that happens with a lot of things with age. I don't care how good your diet is, by the time you're 45 you won't play soccer as well as when you were 25. My dad is about 80 now and his top teeth are fully replaced... his bottom teeth are there but are kind of all worn away. He never feels pain there. He even says that his gums have hardened in such a way that they become almost like teeth on bottom. They're almost as good now. He was never a fruitarian or paleo person or did anything like that, he just eats a standard diet.
Yes this teeth thing is a big issue for me and it always was and will be as I've loved fruit and at it copiously for many years now. I used to keep off grapefruit and tomatoes but am back on them now... I admit I'm scared of my mind at the thought of going back to the dentist.
Reindeer can eat lichen. We cannot eat lichen. We can eat reindeer.
If you were a smart vegan you would have answered coconut :) Wild coconut is at least a reasonably energy-dense food.
??? I love coconut and the stuff you buy in the shops isn't very energy dense.
Wait, you do know about the Inuit don't you? They don't exactly keel over and die at 10, they live longer and healthier lives than most Americans on their native diet.
Well if the standard American diet is what you're comparing them to then I give you that one. Native people couldn't eat worse than that if they TRIED because they don't have the materials. It's Inuit this and Inuit that with you (claiming to be) paleo folks... last I heard Inuit and Eskimos have all sorts of mental problems and health problems and not such long lives at all (maybe longer than the average American, BIG WOOP!)... this despite probably being much more adapted than us for that diet.
Please provide me with some substantial arguments on the matter of fat-soluble vitamins and the cobalamins...
Cobalamins are available aplenty in wild fruit, not so much in our fruit. Fat-soluble vitamins or their precursors are available in sufficient quantaties. The problem with taking people on the standard american diet, giving them fish oils and watching their health improve, is because the body was extremely bad to begin with... almost ANYTHING you gave them that was naturally would improve it. Don't similar studies also prove the "wonders" of the whole grain....? I've sent away for a big load of vitamins with fish oils etc. included. In fact my main worry is about the other things in the vitamins pills and if I should be taking them like that!!!!
I'm interested to understand the application of your all-encompassing fruitarianism (if you can convince me, I may join you).
Good, it's nice to see you're at least trying to keep an open mind... despite the first line of your post.
Also, what about cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) at northern latitudes in winter - where are you obtaining that from, if not from UVB rays?! I'm afraid that around these parts, the sun rarely has his hat on...Let me guess, northern latitudes are not the true ecological niche of the average fruitarian...So how're you going to go on in Ireland then?!
Vitamin D deficiency is a non-issue as regards how we're evolved, it's the OPPOSITE if anything... the vitamin D in food mightn't contain everything. The sun shines more than enough in summer alone for us to get all our vitamin D. Ireland also can get it from sun in Spring and Autumn, possibly even Winter a little bit. Our body can store it for many months. We'd be NUDE in the SUN nearly day primevally. Nowadays I take a vitamin tablet and hope for the best (I mean that there isn't a vitamin d14 that we haven't discovered yet that you get only from the sun or something).
Raw veganism is based on nonsense and people like Herbert Shelton (natural hygienist) died prematurely on account of inadequate nutrition.
Herbert Shelton was one man, come on.
How long will your spinal column last if you can't even keep your teeth?!
I have to completely contradict you on this point!!! It's the ACID and SUGAR that wears away the enamel on your teeth. However when fruits are inside in your body, the overall effect is overwhelmingly ALKALKINE!!!! This is flying directly in the face of high protein diets which create a VERY acidy environment inside in the body. NOONE disputes this or says that fruits will cause bad bones (apart from the vitamin d/calcium thing, but that goes for you guys and all people who don't take dairy as well, the more acidy the internal environment the worse it is).
Maybe you'll even make it to breatharianism once you've discovered how to nourish your astral body?!
What the heck? This is completely uncalled for. You profess that you might come over to my side and then you go around mocking it. Either you give snipes at it or you be polite, don't just jump from one to the other.
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Well if the standard American diet is what you're comparing them to then I give you that one. Native people couldn't eat worse than that if they TRIED because they don't have the materials. It's Inuit this and Inuit that with you (claiming to be) paleo folks... last I heard Inuit and Eskimos have all sorts of mental problems and health problems and not such long lives at all (maybe longer than the average American, BIG WOOP!)... this despite probably being much more adapted than us for that diet.
I would suggest you re-read the chapter on the Inuit in Dr. Price's book. He mentions several times Dr. Romig, who lived around and doctored the the Inuit for over 36 years. Here is what Dr. Romig said:
" Among the many items of information of great interest furnished by Dr. Romig were facts that fitted well into the modern picture of association of modern degenerative processes with modernization. He stated that in his thirty-six years of contact with these people he had never seen a case of malignant disease [cancer-note added] among the truly primitive Eskimos and Indians, although it frequently occurs when they become modernized. He found similarly that the acute surgical problems requiring operation on internal organs such as the gall bladder, kidney, stomach, and appendix do not tend to occur among the primitive, but are very common problems among the modernized Eskimos and Indians. Growing out of his experience, in which he had seen large numbers of the modernized Eskimos and Indians attacked with tuberculosis, which tended to be progressive and ultimately fatal as long as the patients stayed under modernized living conditions, he now sends them back when possible to primitive conditions and to a primitive diet, under which the death rate is very much lower than under modernized conditions. Indeed, he reported that a great majority of the afflicted recover under the primitive type of living and nutrition."
Here is a second passage, this time about childbirth among the Inuit:
"One of the outstanding changes which I have found takes place in the primitive races at their point of contact with our modern civilization is a decrease in the ease and efficiency of the birth process. When I visited the Six Nation Reservation at Brantford, Ontario, I was told by the physician in charge that a change of this kind had occurred during the period of his administration, which had covered twenty-eight years and that the hospital was now used largely to care for young Indian women during abnormal childbirth (Chapter 6).
A similar impressive comment was made to me by Dr. Romig, the superintendent of the government hospital for Eskimos and Indians at Anchorage, Alaska. He stated that in his thirty-six years among the Eskimos, he had never been able to arrive in time to see a normal birth by a primitive Eskimo woman. But conditions have changed materially with the new generation of Eskimo girls, born after their parents began to use foods of modern civilization. Many of them are carried to his hospital after they had been in labour for several days. One Eskimo woman who had married twice, her last husband being a white man, reported to Dr. Romig and myself that she had given birth to twentysix children and that several of them had been born during the night and that she had not bothered to waken her husband, but had introduced him to the new baby in the morning."
Here is one about the rate of cavities:
"At Kokamute, on the Bering Sea at the mouth of the Kuskokwim River, a large band of very primitive Eskimos was studied. They had come from the vicinity of Nelson Island, a district which has had exceedingly little contact with modern civilization. In this group twenty-eight individuals with 820 teeth showed only one tooth, or 0.1 per cent, that had ever been attacked by dental caries."
Their teeth are about as good as the teeth of the Masai.
Do I need to bring up the Masai and the Kikuyu here? You are mysteriously silent about that on the thread where I brought it up. Maybe you didn't notice my post. You need to go read it.
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Wait, you do know about the Inuit don't you? They don't exactly keel over and die at 10, they live longer and healthier lives than most Americans on their native diet.
Last I checked, Inuit lifespan was lower, even as regards those on traditional diets, due to lack of access to medical facilities and a strong tendency towards alcoholism(a common aspect of native tribes these days).
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...I felt a little like eating 2 eggs today (scrambled, as I don't trust raw animal products)....
A wise decision to make at least two exceptions to fruitarianism. Food-borne illness outbreaks and recalls in recent years have involved not just lightly cooked beef, but also plant food products like raw spinach, peanut butter, sesame seeds, pistachios, "Veggie Booty," etc., as well as cooked restaurant egg and fish dishes. Why do you trust plant food products, and cooked eggs and seafood and why do you consider eggs and seafood more Paleo than land mammal meats & fats?
For the love of god try and eat more fruit.
Yes, I decided to take your advice and have been doing that the last several days to put your approach to the test--eating more raw, organic fruits and nuts and all-natural juice with no added sugars or flavors and less meat and fat. It will also enable me to quickly get rid of the remaining carb foods so I can get going on zero carb. The results: my gums are starting to get irritated again, my teeth have that nasty carb film on them again that I try to scrub clean with an electric toothbrush, Oxycare oral irrigator, dental floss and washcloth, and I have to scrub 2 or 3 times a day, but they never seem to get as clean as they were when I was near-zero carb. I'm getting a return of dead skin on my lips, nose, forehead, and scalp, I'm not sleeping as well, waking up with pains and stiffness in the morning, and generally feeling worse. Thanks a lot!
Since you've shown no Hogan clan allegiance and don't seem overly concerned by your having to wash your teeth a lot, I'll return to asking you to please continue eating lots of fruit and please don't eat wild fish (to keep the price down for me ;-) ).
This is as opposed to what, alleged teeth problems?
I don't want to lose my teeth like my grandparents did or have to get a permanent dental bridge like my father has, which I was close to needing. If you don't care about teeth and gum problems and pain, that's your choice.
Palophil, let's get a bit of perspective here. I'm not a 100% fruitarian or even vegan, I have fish and sometimes eggs. I have green tea and supplements and cocoa. 90% fruitarian is VASTLY less controversial and "fruity" as 90% meat and the latter is nothing like paleo man 95% of time plus in my opinion.
Thanks for the candor. I can see your difficulty in finding a diet forum that can be your home. You would probably take a lot of flack at fruitarian and vegetarian forums for eating eggs and fish, and perhaps cheating in additional ways you haven't divulged? The PaleoFood forum you trashed is actually more in line with your diet than this forum, though you might learn more here because there are quite a number of former fruitarians and vegetarians here. The forums that come closest to matching your diet might be the Weight Watchers and Ornish forums, though they have a weight-loss orientation that may not fit your goals.
ESPECIALLY raw meat. It's insane... sorry, I don't often go there, but I had to this time.
Animals are your relatives as well and you eat them. I'm not using this as a part of my argument as to better/worse for health, I'm just throwing you a philosophical err... bone.
Your insults really don't bother me. What is the source of your emotion on this? What is this philosophy you speak of? Did you have a bad experience with meat in your youth?
My skin was terrible and is now slowly getting to perfection on my fruitarian-esque diet. It was terrible despite all the green tea, huge amounts of fruit, vitamins etc. etc. I was taking, the only thing to slowly kill off the little bits of acne was the fruitarian-esque diet.
Fascinating. Please share the secret of your success. What was the difference between the diet with huge amounts of fruit and vitamins that gave you bad skin and the fruitarian-esque diet that is clearing your skin?
Don't take this the wrong way but have you ever considered writing testimonials for flashy products sites....?
There aren't a lot of large companies paying people to write testimonials for pasture-fed (or wild), raw meat/fat/organs. At least with fruitarianesque-ism you could work for a large fruit/juice manufacturer like Dole, Chiquita, etc.
Quote from: PaleoPhil on July 09, 2009, 11:08:09 AM:
"You still haven't explained where you got the idea that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. The book you mentioned, Man the Hunted, doesn't make that argument...."
The book does make the argument a bit. Look at page 226 to page 231. They explained it better than I could....
OK, thanks for pointing to the heart of their argument. I read that and it doesn't claim that Paleolithic humans were fruitarians. Instead it argues:
"…we can hypothesize that early humans were able to exploit A WIDE RANGE OF DIETARY RESOURCES [emphasis mine], including hard, brittle foods (fruits, nuts, seeds, and pods), and soft, weak foods (ripe fruits, young leaves and herbs, flowers and buds). They were also able to eat abrasive objects, including gritty plant parts, such as grass seeds, roots rhizomes, and underground tubers. … [Teaford and Ungar] state: 'The early hominids were not dentally preadapted to eat meat--they simply did not have the sharp, reciprocally concave shearing blades necessary to retain and cut such foods." [No, but they had sharp rocks. LOL Even vultures use rocks to crack open ostrich eggs, for Pete's sake. If birds can use them, why couldn't early hominids whose hands were much better adapted to hold them? Rocks would have come in particularly handy when cracking open long bones and skulls to get at the marrow and brains that other animals couldn't reach. Regardless of whether early hominids scavenged or hunted or both the end result was the same--fats and meats to eat.]
It goes on to say that humans have an omnivorous alimentary track, meaning we are adapted to eat a wide variety of plants and meats--not just fruits. I agree with this and my view has never been that we cannot eat plants.
Interestingly, they include legumes ("pods"), "grass seeds" (which would include grains and grain-like seeds) and tubers among the typical foods Paleo humans would have eaten, implying they ate far more of these than meats. What is your opinion on eating legumes, grains and tubers? Are these healthy foods? Healthier than raw, pasture-fed and wild meats, fats and organs?
Quote from: PaleoPhil on July 09, 2009, 11:08:09 AM
"Also, if so many people think that Stone Agers were fruitarians, as you seem to think, then why are there no Paleo-fruitarian diet forums?"
Pure, unashamed, ad hominem. This is the same things you're saying over and over.
Ad hominem means attacking the person who is making the argument instead of addressing the substance of the claim. You claimed over at the PaleoFood forum that the people there who eat significant amounts of meat had "hijacked" the term Paleo diet and misused it, that you were surprised that eating peanut shells ??? was not one of the common topics there and that some Paleo dieters would eat so much protein, and basically implied that the views over there are in a tiny minority, arguing that the diets of the people there and here are very unhealthy. I asked for evidence to support your claims--if a flesh-heavy diet is so much rarer and more absurd than a fruitarianesque diet, why isn't there a fruitarianesque forum and why aren't the Paleo dieters in these forums complaining about deteriorating health and leaving for a fruitarianesque forum? That is not ad hominem, it's basic sense. If half of what you say is true then you should be able to start your own fruitarianesque Yahoo group (which doesn't take much time) and easily get people to leave here and flock to it. Why don't you? That question was asked of you at the other forum and you still haven't answered it.
Back to the teeth AGAIN...? Fine, I do find it somewhat interesting to hear about your teeth remineralization.
Fascinating, isn't it? Here's some info on it:
"Remineralization occurs when calcium from the saliva and other sources replace a tooth's lost calcium. When the calcium is replaced, the enamel can repair itself. In order for this process to take place, the surface of the tooth needs to be very clean, there needs to be a sufficient flow of saliva, and there needs to be an adequate amount of calcium." (http://hubpages.com/hub/Remineralization-of-tooth-cavities)
So you see, we must have enough calcium in our systems, because "an adequate amount of calcium" is necessary for remineralization to occur. So our tooth remineralization also suggests that our bone density is probably improving, which Lex Rooker reports dental x-rays have documented in his case. Again, if you value your health, read all you can of Lex's bio, journal and posts.
I don't want sound obnoxious but after hearing about remineralization I thought maybe the high animal protein diet could do that. After reading this, I'm inclined to think that it probably IS a mainly isolated phenomenon
What are you talking about, the geophagy (therapeutic ingestion of clays)?
I DID. I tried it and I hated it. I felt terrible.
OK, care to be any more specific?
You should call your diet the "neo diet"... the diet of Neolithic people.
The Neolithic began with the dawn of agriculture, which would mean eating foods I don't eat, such as grains, dairy, legumes, etc. You can call your diet whatever you want and I hope you'll show me the same courtesy. I tend to call mine an "ancestral diet."
... that's a sort of gradual wear and tear that happens with a lot of things with age. I don't care how good your diet is, by the time you're 45 you won't play soccer as well as when you were 25. My dad is about 80 now and his top teeth are fully replaced...
I already explained to you--my "natural wear and tear" have been reversing--or at least they were until I followed your fruitarianesque advice.
I used to keep off grapefruit and tomatoes but am back on them now... I admit I'm scared of my mind at the thought of going back to the dentist.
I too used to fear the painful dental cleanings. Now they feel like a pleasurable massage. I never would have guessed that such rapid improvement was possible.
I've sent away for a big load of vitamins with fish oils etc.
Think about it, fish oils are a wild animal fat. So wild animal fats are apparently healthy--else why supplement with them? Why do you need a wild animal fat supplement and loads of vitamins if today's fruits are so healthy?
This is flying directly in the face of high protein diets which create a VERY acidy environment inside in the body. NOONE disputes this or says that fruits will cause bad bones
Again, you're talking about COOKED meat. This is the RAW Paleo diet forum, remember? And we dispute that claim as regards raw flesh, obviously.
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My skin was terrible and is now slowly getting to perfection on my fruitarian-esque diet. It was terrible despite all the green tea, huge amounts of fruit, vitamins etc. etc. I was taking, the only thing to slowly kill off the little bits of acne was the fruitarian-esque diet.
Wai Diet is the ultimate cure for Acne. Wai Diet is already broadly considered as part of Raw Paleo Diet. (raw fruit + evoo + raw eggs + raw sea food, always eat your fruit with a fat so your blood sugar does not fluctuate)
A fruit diet is a very good cleansing diet and must be considered as a temporary treatment. To survive a fruit diet, you must have fat sources like nuts, avocados, coconut milk / meat.
I used to have cystic acne myself and I had terrible skin with folliculitis in my arms and I was ravaged with eczema in 2005.
I own and operate http://www.eczemacure.info
Superinfinity, I think you need to know that many of us in raw paleo forum were also sick, have cured ourselves, have hopped on to many diets before. Do not be discouraged by the arguments you receive in this thread, this is all cerebral, a manly bonding thing. I argued for fruitarian and vegan diets some time ago in Dr. Sutter's thread on Curezone and he was alarmed and told me that animal food was important. He was correct. I fell flat on my face after 2 months of raw vegan. I fell flat on my face after 2 months of fruitarian. Yesterday I thanked him for his wise remarks some time ago. Good thing I'm not dogmatic about anything. Not even raw paleo or its many variants or ratios.
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Last I checked, Inuit lifespan was lower, even as regards those on traditional diets, due to lack of access to medical facilities and a strong tendency towards alcoholism(a common aspect of native tribes these days).
This is comparable to the many scientific studies which show that eating meat is bad for us, in the sense that they never say that the meat they use is cooked.
Yes, Inuit lifespan is lower, what you ignore is that the interesting reports are of traditional or pre-contact Inuit diet, not modern. Lack of access to medical facilities results in longer life and better health - see Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.
There are no living Inuit who eat a traditional diet. AFAIK
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I've sent away for a big load of vitamins with fish oils etc.
??? You need vitamins and supplements ???
Whatever for?
Real raw food is more powerful than all that.
I remember my sick brother shivering to death when his psoriasis was almost terminal, we were giving him big doses of fish oil capsules. My herbalist was angry at me for giving my brother supplements. I acceded to her hysterics and bought my brother fresh raw tuna. He gobbled up 1/2 kilo in 1 meal. Next day he stopped shivering. Just like that, he received true nutrition.
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The PaleoFood forum you trashed is actually more in line with your diet than this forum, though you might learn more here because there are quite a number of former fruitarians and vegetarians here.
LOL
The paleofood list is a combat zone which has no common belief in what is paleofood. It is a work in progress, and "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen", which was SuperInfinity's response to the fray.
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Hi William. Love your passion and humor, as usual. :)
There are no living Inuit who eat a traditional diet. AFAIK
Dr. Jay Wortman is actually working to return Namgis, Inuit and other First Nations peoples to eating more of their traditional foods. He started with himself, with amazing results, and also conducted a 12 month study. Here are some links:
Exercise and Low Carb Diets
http://www.dsolve.com/news-aamp-info-othermenu-60/23-diabetes-solution/26-news11
"Jay Wortman is a medical doctor who was born in a remote part of northern Alberta that used to be a Hudson Bay trading post. Jay was raised in a log house on the banks of the Peace River. Now he’s a Medical Doctor and Regional Director for Health Canada, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch. In this position, he’s working to help first nations people return to a diet closer to the low-carb version that kept them healthy for generations."
MY BIG, FAT DIET
HTTP://WWW.CBC.CA/THELENS/BIGFATDIET/
Dr. Jay’s Blog
http://www.drjaywortman.com/
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A wise decision to make at least two exceptions to fruitarianism. Food-borne illness outbreaks and recalls in recent years have involved not just lightly cooked beef, but also plant food products like raw spinach, peanut butter, sesame seeds, pistachios, "Veggie Booty," etc., as well as cooked restaurant egg and fish dishes. Why do you trust plant food products, and cooked eggs and seafood and why do you consider eggs and seafood more Paleo than land mammal meats & fats?
Because first of all fruit is SUPPOSED to be eaten raw. Obviously the food industry and government don't give a crap about us raw foodists for other foods (they probably secretly hate raw meat eaters especially and wouldn't mind seeing them all get sick), they are NOT going to bend over backwards to make sure we're not being poisoned... consumer organisations won't be looking out so much either. If they give hormones/medication to an animal... who knows what will happen when you eat it. Cooking at least destroys those things. I actually rarely eat raw vegetables anyway... the one I eat by far the most of is organic broccoli (the non-organic stuff gives me headaches). I consider eggs and seafood more paleo because they were a lot easier for paleo men to get and show up an awful lot in the fossil record. Plus the great apes catch a lot more fish than they do meat. One Orangutan was actually photographed using a human spear to fish... probably from copying a human (on a tangent to that, Orangutans are being pushed out of their homeland and made extinct by human plantations. Please try and do what you can to help them, they're our relatives... how would you like to be forced out of your home and all your food taken from you and starved to death?? And for what, because you have a smaller brain??? It's humans' larger brain that is ruining EVERYTHING).
Yes, I decided to take your advice and have been doing that the last several days to put your approach to the test--eating more raw, organic fruits and nuts and all-natural juice with no added sugars or flavors and less meat and fat. It will also enable me to quickly get rid of the remaining carb foods so I can get going on zero carb. The results: my gums are starting to get irritated again, my teeth have that nasty carb film on them again that I try to scrub clean with an electric toothbrush, Oxycare oral irrigator, dental floss and washcloth, and I have to scrub 2 or 3 times a day, but they never seem to get as clean as they were when I was near-zero carb. I'm getting a return of dead skin on my lips, nose, forehead, and scalp, I'm not sleeping as well, waking up with pains and stiffness in the morning, and generally feeling worse. Thanks a lot!
Just because it's easier to settle into a fruitarian diet than a low-carb diet doesn't mean you can just wake up one day and decide to do it. I'm not sure if I believe that thing about "return of dead skin"...
And why the HELL do people take "juice"?? It's STUPID. People give out about blood sugar and then they go and gollup down juice!!!! Juice will raise your blood sugar like it was never supposed to, (yes... even if you take it unsweetened....). Juice is about the same as cooking lightly.... you're losing stuff out of it and just eating more calories faster. I don't know why people do juicing... you say you're worried about the bloodsugar of fruit and then you juice it? I'm not saying that it's a bad misconception or a bad mistake for you as a "newbie" fruitarian as juicing seems to be all over the place, but it is not a very smart thing and definitely not paleo.
Thanks for the candor. I can see your difficulty in finding a diet forum that can be your home. You would probably take a lot of flack at fruitarian and vegetarian forums for eating eggs and fish, and perhaps cheating in additional ways you haven't divulged?
Not so much, rawfoodsupport.com is a very good one. I'd hazard a guess that there are nearly as much fruitarian boards out there than paleo ones, how about that? I told you the board I had a mishap last Saturday, but I'm "clean" ever since.
Your insults really don't bother me. What is the source of your emotion on this? What is this philosophy you speak of? Did you have a bad experience with meat in your youth?
Fascinating. Please share the secret of your success. What was the difference between the diet with huge amounts of fruit and vitamins that gave you bad skin and the fruitarian-esque diet that is clearing your skin?
There aren't a lot of large companies paying people to write testimonials for pasture-fed (or wild), raw meat/fat/organs. At least with fruitarianesque-ism you could work for a large fruit/juice manufacturer like Dole, Chiquita, etc.
l) The huge amount of vitamins and fruit also contained milk, biscuits, cake, bread and so on. Could a diet high in raw animal protein do it as well? Probably, as I think it was the bad foods that caused it. However I doubt it would repair my skin as fast or as well.
[No, but they had sharp rocks. LOL Even vultures use rocks to crack open ostrich eggs, for Pete's sake. If birds can use them, why couldn't early hominids whose hands were much better adapted to hold them? Rocks would have come in particularly handy when cracking open long bones and skulls to get at the marrow and brains that other animals couldn't reach. Regardless of whether early hominids scavenged or hunted or both the end result was the same--fats and meats to eat.]
Did you know that people who kill animals also have a propensity for killing humans? It's how many serial killers start out, by hurting and killing animals. Just a semi-random thought...
Interestingly, they include legumes ("pods"), "grass seeds" (which would include grains and grain-like seeds) and tubers among the typical foods Paleo humans would have eaten, implying they ate far more of these than meats. What is your opinion on eating legumes, grains and tubers? Are these healthy foods? Healthier than raw, pasture-fed and wild meats, fats and organs?
If the legumes, grains and tubers are raw? Yes. If they're cooked? Yes. Wrongham may be a fool, but at the end of the day a cooked potato is a very good food in my book. The main reason I don't eat them is for principle and contingency. As I have repeatedly stated, I may once a month or something eat such things again, if only for the sake of stupidity. :P
Ad hominem means attacking the person who is making the argument instead of addressing the substance of the claim. You claimed over at the PaleoFood forum that the people there who eat significant amounts of meat had "hijacked" the term Paleo diet and misused it, that you were surprised that eating peanut shells ??? was not one of the common topics there and that some Paleo dieters would eat so much protein, and basically implied that the views over there are in a tiny minority, arguing that the diets of the people there and here are very unhealthy. I asked for evidence to support your claims--if a flesh-heavy diet is so much rarer and more absurd than a fruitarianesque diet, why isn't there a fruitarianesque forum and why aren't the Paleo dieters in these forums complaining about deteriorating health and leaving for a fruitarianesque forum? That is not ad hominem, it's basic sense. If half of what you say is true then you should be able to start your own fruitarianesque Yahoo group (which doesn't take much time) and easily get people to leave here and flock to it. Why don't you? That question was asked of you at the other forum and you still haven't answered it.
I meant an invalid attack similar to ad hominem... antiquitarian fallacy or whatever it's called (even though that word has been used in the most incredibly retarded way to say the paleo diet is an antiquitarian fallacy). There are many fruitarian message boards out there as I've said before. Okay, you don't have to call your diet the Neo diet... but call it something other than the Paleo diet because it's contentious and just your opinion of what he ate.
Think about it, fish oils are a wild animal fat. So wild animal fats are apparently healthy--else why supplement with them? Why do you need a wild animal fat supplement and loads of vitamins if today's fruits are so healthy?
Again, you're talking about COOKED meat. This is the RAW Paleo diet forum, remember? And we dispute that claim as regards raw flesh, obviously.
Because fruits I eat aren't fresh (sometimes weeks old), have had pesticides put on them, have been grown intensively and in poor soil and sometimes are genetically modified or artificially selected.
Wai Diet is the ultimate cure for Acne. Wai Diet is already broadly considered as part of Raw Paleo Diet.
Wai diet says it's extremely low in raw vegetables. That's extremely stupid. What's the point in that?! Apart from salads I'm fairly low in vegetables, but that just doesn't make sense as a concept.
(raw fruit + evoo + raw eggs + raw sea food, always eat your fruit with a fat so your blood sugar does not fluctuate)
****ING BULL****!!!!! I HATE PEOPLE SAYING RUBBISH LIKE THAT. I *WANT* MY BLOOD SUGAR TO FLUCTUATE.
THE IDEA OF HIGH BLOOD SUGAR FROM RAW FRUIT IS COMPLETELY RETARDED NONSENSE BECAUSE IF YOU ATE TEN COOKIES, YOUR BLOOD SUGAR WOULD GO HIGHER THAN YOU'D EVER GET WITH FRUIT!!!!
YOU NEED A LITTLE BLOOD SUGAR FLUCTUATING, THAT'S GOOD FOR YOU.
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT YOU DON'T? BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU ON THE INTERNET????????? IT STEMS FROM OBESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE METABOLIC SYNDROME AND GREW TO HATE SUGAR BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE FROM YEARS AND YEARS OF ABUSE. I BET THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE HERE WHO WERE OBESE IS MONUMENTAL.
I BET ANYTHING THAT THERE ARE STUDIES OUT THERE AND THERE WILL BE MORE THAT SLIGHTLY FLUCTUATING BLOOD SUGAR AS IT WOULD IN FRUITS IS ACTUALLY A *HIGHLY* BENEFICIAL THING.
PALEO MAN DID NOT SAY: "DURRR OH GEE, I JUST ATE SOME BANANAS, I BETTER GET SOME NUTS AND FISH SO I CAN HAVE SOME FAT TO GO ALONG WITH THAT"
PALEO MAN IS/WAS PERFECTLY EVOLVED FOR IT!!!! YOU DO ***NOT*** KNOW BETTER THAN PALEO MAN!!!!! EXCUSE ME IF I'M GETTING EMOTIONAL OVER THIS, BUT THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT PALEO MAN AND IF THE PERSON WHO'S MEANT TO BE BEHIND IT IS SAYING THIS....
BLOOD SUGAR FLUCTUATING IS A STUPID *MYTH*, IT IS LIKE A *RELIGION* IT IS A *SUPERSTITION*. YOU DO *NOT* KNOW BETTER THAN PALEO MAN!!!!
BY ALL MEANS... IF YOU JUST BINGED ON RUBBISH FOODS, THEN TAKE SOME OIL/FAT. BUT DO *NOT* TELL ME OR ANYONE THAT THEY SHOULD BE TAKING THIS STUFF IF THEY EAT SOME DELICIOUS FRUIT.
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By my definition, you've crossed the line of appropriate discourse. Rein it in, or I will start a thread in the moderators forum to discuss your suspension and banning. Once that happens, you're well on your way out of here.
My suggestion is that you ignore these others for the moment, and respond to my posts. You have ignored my posts, and that's not good, because
1. They make sense
2. It makes me think you're trolling
Which just gets you banned. :)
So answer my posts about the 1300% difference between Masai and Kikuyu cavities, and about the Inuit ease of birth, low rate of cavities, and lack of cancer on their all-meat/fish diet.
Or we may just ban you.
I'm doing my best to be nice, but you need to calm it down. :)
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hey, here's a proposition: go live out in the wild. i think you'll find it would be literally impossible to stay alive if you only eat the scant amount of berries or fruits that may or may not be there seasonally. that's probably all you'll find that agrees with your proposed diet. eating animals is the only way to survive outside of civilization. and by the way, fish and eggs are probably the most difficult animal foods to obtain. eggs are extremely seasonal and there aren't enough nests to support even one human for any length of time. fish are much harder to catch if you don't have modern equipment. land animals would have been much easier to obtain by stalking and throwing something at it.
it really is common sense when you think about it. just ask yourself how an opportunistic human would sustain himself without civilization to provide his fruits and eggs regardless of season.
now, i will agree with you on part of your above post. like you said, IF paleo man found some yummy seasonal fruits, he probably wouldn't go looking for a fat to eat it with. he probably just ate it and enjoyed it. that's common sense in action again. i suggest you apply it to the big picture though. would paleo man rather have starved than eaten animals?
please, i'd like a coherent response.
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So answer my posts about the 1300% difference between Masai and Kikuyu cavities, and about the Inuit ease of birth, low rate of cavities, and lack of cancer on their all-meat/fish diet.
Or we may just ban you.
I'm doing my best to be nice, but you need to calm it down. :)
cherimoya your points/questions were a bit tangential or hard to prove/disprove and that's why I didn't answer directly. I never said anything about easy/difficulty of birth for people who eat a lot of protein... I don't know why they have a lack of cancer, that's a good point.
As for the Masai vs Kikuyus...
The Masai are tall and strong... For their food throughout the centuries they have depended very largely on milk, meat and blood, reinforced with vegetables and fruits. In the Masai tribe, a study of 2,516 teeth in eighty-eight individuals distributed through several widely separated manyatas showed only four individuals with caries. These had a total of ten carious teeth, or only 0.4 per cent of the teeth attacked by tooth decay. In contrast with the Masai, the Kikuyu tribe are characterized by being primarily an agricultural people. Their chief articles of diet are sweet potatoes, corn, beans, and some bananas, millet, and Kafir corn, a variety of Indian millet. The women use special diets during gestation and lactation. The Kikuyus are not as tall as the Masai and physically they are much less rugged... A study of 1,041 teeth in thirty-three individuals showed fifty-seven teeth with caries or 5.5 per cent. There were 36.4 per cent of the individuals affected.
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/articles/teeth1.html
The Kikyus are an agricultural people and have been for a very long time, that's a clear reason as to why they would have so many more cavities.
hey, here's a proposition: go live out in the wild. i think you'll find it would be literally impossible to stay alive if you only eat the scant amount of berries or fruits that may or may not be there seasonally.
The chimps and other primates don't have that huge a problem with it. Not only do they find enough but they also have plenty of time to relax and socialise. The way you're talking is as though no fruits or vegetables grew at all during African winter and no primates would survive without being carnivorous.
Think about it. If a baboon or gorilla can survive while only being a little carnivorous, then why on earth couldn't a human?! I mean sure, we need a bit more food.... that's part of why we have a huge brain, the economics of ecology works that one out itself without the need for us to go extinct. I think the main reason we developed such a huge brain is because of language.
that's probably all you'll find that agrees with your proposed diet. eating animals is the only way to survive outside of civilization. and by the way, fish and eggs are probably the most difficult animal foods to obtain. eggs are extremely seasonal and there aren't enough nests to support even one human for any length of time. fish are much harder to catch if you don't have modern equipment. land animals would have been much easier to obtain by stalking and throwing something at it.
I don't know about that all that, not to accuse but to me it seems a bit like you're making it up a bit as you go along. Apes often fish, bears also go diving for seafood a lot as I'm sure you've seen on a nature program. Humans could have done that to animals.... maybe you're right there!!! I don't know about eggs, it seems to me they wouldn't be so hard to pilfer at all once you know the right patterns/places to check.
it really is common sense when you think about it. just ask yourself how an opportunistic human would sustain himself without civilization to provide his fruits and eggs regardless of season.
Some things grow better in the summer, some (less) in the winter. Again you're completely ignoring the fact that millions of primates are around and survive every winter just fine.
now, i will agree with you on part of your above post. like you said, IF paleo man found some yummy seasonal fruits, he probably wouldn't go looking for a fat to eat it with. he probably just ate it and enjoyed it. that's common sense in action again. i suggest you apply it to the big picture though. would paleo man rather have starved than eaten animals?
Yes exactly, it's common sense. People get weird ideas and superstitions about fluctuating blood sugar and all that when it's all just to do with modern foods. If I could name one fault with modern humans it would be that they have a huge tendency to myths and superstitions and ideas such as eating some fat every time you eat some fruit... then going off and *juicing* fruit (not directed at the person who juices fruit in this thread, just in general a lot of "raw" people do). And this on the paleo forum itself... /facepalm.
Paleo man did what he could to get by, it doesn't mean it was always optimal. Paleo man ate a lot of insects too you know. Sure I guess it's nice to know that I could also eat protein and do fairly well on it, it's only in the past about 2 million years ago at most that we really separated a lot from the great apes though, did we really evolve that much in that little time? I doubt it.
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OK, let me make it very, very simple.
1. The Masai had great teeth. They ate almost all meat.
2. The Kikuyu had worse teeth. They ate very little meat.
3. The Eskimo had great teeth. They all almost all meat.
4. I've posted and read on raw food message boards (vegan and not) for nearly 10 years. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of raw vegans losing teeth. I don't hear any RAFers with that problem. EVERYBODY HERE can also corroborate that, from their own experience.
5. Wild animals almost never have cavities, and their teeth are always straight.
6. The Peruvian Indians, in Dr. Price's travels, had the BEST teeth, except for maybe the Maori. The Peruvians ate lots of beans and corn, not wild, CULTIVATED.
What's it take with you? If you just read the book carefully, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Seriously, if I have to refute you ONE more time with something simple and obvious from Dr. Price's book, I'm starting the banning thread. I'm sick of this. I thought you had some good point that you might make at some point. That's why I was putting up with you. I'm pretty sure, now, that you don't.
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OK, SuperInfinity, you do seem pretty stressed now, so I'll try to give you a break by just responding to one of your points that you seemed to aim most squarely at me. But first I'll take a moment to find something we agree on. I think we agree that grains and dairy were not Paleo staples and are unhealthy foods--especially processed versions like biscuits and cakes. Hooray! ;D
And why the HELL do people take "juice"?? It's STUPID. People give out about blood sugar and then they go and gollup down juice!!!! Juice will raise your blood sugar like it was never supposed to, (yes... even if you take it unsweetened....).
Very confusing and again with the ad hominem, although at least it's mostly passively indirect. You said yourself at the other Paleo forum: "I have often picked up delicious blueberry juice when they're out of season," and pure blueberry juice is what I was drinking--at YOUR suggestion! Did you forget? Maybe I misunderstood something?
I don't "juice" fruits or veggies like a lot of people you've apparently encountered--maybe at your raw vegan forum. I know that fruit juices are not healthy. They are also addictive and I was trying to kick the habit (and I was already consuming far better beverages in general than the average person) until you came along and started talking about "delicious blueberry juice" (though I'm not blaming you, you were just the one who gave me the idea, I put it into action). I decided to give your suggestions a try before I go fully zero carb, to see how much fruits and carbs I can handle these days, and I need to clear out my remaining carb foods before going ZC anyway. I was amazed at how rapidly they affected my health in a negative way. Luckily, I know that ZC RPD just as rapidly rejuvenates the health and I think I'm in decent enough shape to experiment with your unique diet without doing serious harm to myself.
So tell me what to eat then and I'll consider giving it a try--although I'll definitely be skipping the peanut shells ;D --and this time please don't change your mind after the fact.
BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?
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we are not "other primates." i dont know about you but i consider myself a homo sapien. i require different foods than other monkeys and apes. if your only rebuttal is that other primates eat lots of fruit then i guess im kind of done with the conversation... good luck
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Homo sapien as exclusive frugivore is a myth...Accept that self-evidence as manifest in your tooth compromisation (I did!)...
Fruitarians are always thinking how they can select correctly tree-ripened wild/heirloom fruits or adopting mouth rinsing protocols to keep the pH of the mouth's microenvironment balanced...Typically, this pathetic practice is far removed from the rugged survivalism that brought us thus far in the complex of Earth's challenges (to the point of undermining our nature!). Gaia does not respect human fruitarianism (there's only nature's version of animal welfare, which is kill naturally, or be killed (or defend/poison/paralyse/run/hide/etc.))
It's all nonsense when you realise that your teeth can match any offense, given correct nutrition, particularly an abundance of fat-soluble vitamins - those same vitamins that past tribes presented in abundance to their burgeoning/young families (knowing that their so-called equivalent precursors in the plant kingdom were far less than equivalent (or available/bio-available) by many measures!). Some tribes even file(d) teeth to increase sharpness, which heal(ed) quickly on their traditional diet abundant in animal lipids.
Surely, after some ass-kicking from nature already, you'd understand that your dietary principles do not reconcile with her good will?!
Your long-flogged, futile argumentation now constitutes a waste of time and surely now, the thread must be reaching its conclusion...
I suppose that good people can be at different points in their journey, but given something as severe and previously well-recognised as fruitarian tooth loss, you must really be uttering your cry for help with the intention of changing your ways given the appropriate prompting...
I'd urge you to be open-minded and ignore the fruitarian propagandism (a la durianrider, 80/10/10 crew et al)...Listen to the internal/innate voice of reason and load up on your already massively depleted store of vitamins, before more metabolic manifestations begin to take their toll on you...
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By the way, I like your alias SuperInfinity! I might adopt SuperPrime as my alter-ego alias...
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Okay I have to say something first. Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. I am feeling good with it, it's just annoying to have such a cold. I honestly don't know how I could have gotten it. I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? Well I do know that young people tend to get more colds than older people but when older people get them it hits them much worse... and I certainly feel good even with this cold. I don't know.
And the second thing is... (after I got the cold), when I was shopping I decided to get peanuts and fish rather than my usual fruit and veg. I don't really know why, possibly because of I just wanted to eat them fast and also listening to people like you. I also got a small bottle of cod liver oil while waiting for my fish supplements... so... I'm not really a fruitarian anymore... not that I ever really was, except according to beyondveg.com which takes the percentage by WEIGHT. The funny thing is I ate the big bag of peanuts anyway and gobbled down two tins of fish... my alimentary canal gets what it wants. I wanted it so I ate it. It's always worked for fruit and I even lost substantial weight on it... but the whole concept of wanting food and yet not eating it is a big no-no for me... and in fact probably everyone long-term. Call it vanity but I wouldn't be comfortable with the weight I would put on and call it self-gratification but I wouldn't like to eat so little or to miss out on so much good fruit. *shrugs* I don't know what will happen. If you're honestly trying to pick out Herbert Shelton who lived until he was 90 as a 100% fruitarian as being proof that fruitarianism is bad then I don't know what to say. I genuinely hope people on your diet live until 100 as well, but I truly believe only if you take it a lot more in moderation. Look how moderate I am with what I ate today... I somehow feel like this was a slip or falling off the wagon... but I premeditatively did it, I do it a lot. I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. *shrugs* I don't know. You're the guys mainly saying that I am.
OK, SuperInfinity, you do seem pretty stressed now, so I'll try to give you a break by just responding to one of your points that you seemed to aim most squarely at me.
You know that's funny because I was going to say something like "note: this isn't being aimed at anyone in particular in this thread". But then I thought better of it because I didn't want to mention your name!
But first I'll take a moment to find something we agree on. I think we agree that grains and dairy were not Paleo staples and are unhealthy foods--especially processed versions like biscuits and cakes. Hooray! ;D
Wooh! I agree that most people here are very smart and savvy about their foods. If you even mention or condone raw in other forums you can get very strange and hostile reactions, calling it bs and all that... these are the people that will get diabetes and cardiovascular disease one day.
Very confusing and again with the ad hominem, although at least it's mostly passively indirect. You said yourself at the other Paleo forum: "I have often picked up delicious blueberry juice when they're out of season," and pure blueberry juice is what I was drinking--at YOUR suggestion! Did you forget? Maybe I misunderstood something?
Ha... I meant the people who go home and throw everything into a juicer!!!!! NOT people who take the best fruit that are out of season like that. I find it bad that even on the raw forum that I like they even have their own *board* about it. Well I give you props for the illusion of a contradiction and pulling that out... blueberry juice is the ONLY juice I have taken like that in a very long time though and ONLY when blueberries aren't available. This year I'm not sure I'll take it anymore, I can probably find frozen blueberries somewhere... or maybe I can freeze them myself. I also try to eat apples or some other fruit with it... so I get fibre and perhaps other things in the original blueberries!!!! I'm sorry if I appeared to cross lines with you a bit there, but some juice like that with other fruit isn't much of a problem I think.
I don't "juice" fruits or veggies like a lot of people you've apparently encountered--maybe at your raw vegan forum. I know that fruit juices are not healthy. They are also addictive and I was trying to kick the habit (and I was already consuming far better beverages in general than the average person) until you came along and started talking about "delicious blueberry juice" (though I'm not blaming you, you were just the one who gave me the idea, I put it into action). I decided to give your suggestions a try before I go fully zero carb, to see how much fruits and carbs I can handle these days, and I need to clear out my remaining carb foods before going ZC anyway. I was amazed at how rapidly they affected my health in a negative way. Luckily, I know that ZC RPD just as rapidly rejuvenates the health and I think I'm in decent enough shape to experiment with your unique diet without doing serious harm to myself.
Oh god I'm losing hope for you...
So tell me what to eat then and I'll consider giving it a try--although I'll definitely be skipping the peanut shells ;D --and this time please don't change your mind after the fact.
Eat whatever fruit you want... try eating a few apples instead of your usual raw animal protein. Apples are a nice, easy food to eat. They don't give too much harsh sugar and are nice to digest. I love them.
BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?
I do not know why that is but considering it's either mainstream medicine or local tradition that are behind it... I don't have much faith in either so... I wouldn't count on it being down to any actual valid or half-INTELLIGENT reason.
we are not "other primates." i dont know about you but i consider myself a homo sapien. i require different foods than other monkeys and apes. if your only rebuttal is that other primates eat lots of fruit then i guess im kind of done with the conversation... good luck
You discount the argument that there is NO other ape that's carnivorous...? That's fine, but considering we're only about 3.2 million years departed from them and share many, many other traits I doubt we're really that different.
Homo sapien as exclusive frugivore is a myth...Accept that self-evidence as manifest in your tooth compromisation (I did!)...
Fruitarians are always thinking how they can select correctly tree-ripened wild/heirloom fruits or adopting mouth rinsing protocols to keep the pH of the mouth's microenvironment balanced...Typically, this pathetic practice is far removed from the rugged survivalism that brought us thus far in the complex of Earth's challenges (to the point of undermining our nature!). Gaia does not respect human fruitarianism (there's only nature's version of animal welfare, which is kill naturally, or be killed (or defend/poison/paralyse/run/hide/etc.))
It's all nonsense when you realise that your teeth can match any offense, given correct nutrition, particularly an abundance of fat-soluble vitamins - those same vitamins that past tribes presented in abundance to their burgeoning/young families (knowing that their so-called equivalent precursors in the plant kingdom were far less than equivalent (or available/bio-available) by many measures!). Some tribes even file(d) teeth to increase sharpness, which heal(ed) quickly on their traditional diet abundant in animal lipids.
Surely, after some ass-kicking from nature already, you'd understand that your dietary principles do not reconcile with her good will?!
Your long-flogged, futile argumentation now constitutes a waste of time and surely now, the thread must be reaching its conclusion...
I suppose that good people can be at different points in their journey, but given something as severe and previously well-recognised as fruitarian tooth loss, you must really be uttering your cry for help with the intention of changing your ways given the appropriate prompting...
I'd urge you to be open-minded and ignore the fruitarian propagandism (a la durianrider, 80/10/10 crew et al)...Listen to the internal/innate voice of reason and load up on your already massively depleted store of vitamins, before more metabolic manifestations begin to take their toll on you...
Again, I am not a fruitarian. 80/10/10 is what you'd get from being a pure vegan as there is substantial protein in raw plants. What you crowd seem to be suggesting is 10/20/70, which is far worse.
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Superinfinity said:
Okay I have to say something first. Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. I am feeling good with it, it's just annoying to have such a cold. I honestly don't know how I could have gotten it. I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? Well I do know that young people tend to get more colds than older people but when older people get them it hits them much worse... and I certainly feel good even with this cold. I don't know.
In 1.6 years of my raw paleo diet since began with wai diet and slowly increasing my fat intake and lowering carbs... I have never gotten a cold. Amazing huh?
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Come on guys... Let's put this thread in perspective:
(1) What paleo diet, in which region, at what period in time are we talking about?
- and were the paleo people at that time and that region healthy or just surviving?
- honestly, everything is speculation.
(2) My modern idea of Paleo Diet is does it work? Especially on you. And how long has it been working so far. Can you replicate this success with your kids and loved ones?
- I'm not practicing raw paleo diet because of any dogma, I'm just looking for what makes me achieve higher levels of health.
I'm sure all of us are in search of better health and not just about imitating some conceived cavemen. Where earth conditions, flora, fauna, air, gravity, temperature, solar, lunar may have been pretty much different than it is today.
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Okay I have to say something first. Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. I am feeling good with it, it's just annoying to have such a cold. I honestly don't know how I could have gotten it. I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? Well I do know that young people tend to get more colds than older people but when older people get them it hits them much worse... and I certainly feel good even with this cold. I don't know.
I tried loading up on the best quality vitamin C supplements, back when I was vegan. They didn't do much more than make me gassy and stink. My health did not improve on them.
Eat whatever fruit you want... try eating a few apples instead of your usual raw animal protein. Apples are a nice, easy food to eat. They don't give too much harsh sugar and are nice to digest. I love them.
Raw animal protein works for my body. Raw apples really not. There is no reason for me to go against my body like that by eating food that disagrees with it rather than food that assists my health.
Again, I am not a fruitarian. 80/10/10 is what you'd get from being a pure vegan as there is substantial protein in raw plants. What you crowd seem to be suggesting is 10/20/70, which is far worse.
I vote by experience for 5/5/90 as the healthiest diet for me.
BTW, isn't it interesting, in comparison to fruit juice, that beef and chicken broth do not seem to have the same negative effect and are actually used to treat illness (especially when bones and marrow are included)? Why do you think that is?
I find fruit juice way too acidic. I'll only drink it if where I am has nothing else to offer in the way as calories, like at a Whole Foods Market juice bar.
I try almost every food out on myself, and then don't necessarily adopt it, even if it doesn't affect me; because I prefer raw. Example in case is I have made a beef bone broth and I have made a chicken both broth. The beef bone broth actually went down very well and I got no reactions. The chicken bone broth was a totally other story. Then I read on WAP about fats in marrow and which species of animals' marrow cooks well and which don't healthwise and why, and now I understand. I would take juice over chicken broth, and beef broth over juice.
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In 1.6 years of my raw paleo diet since began with wai diet and slowly increasing my fat intake and lowering carbs... I have never gotten a cold. Amazing huh?
Well my cold seems to be going now, I hope it will be gone by the morning perhaps. It really didn't make me "miserable" or anything, colds never do that to me. The very, very weird thing is that I seem to be getting more colds lately and this one struck me as I have never had as much watery fluids come out my nose in one day my life! Could it be that the fruits *caused* the colds? No.... because my diet beforehand was objectively worse. I'm not making it up about not liking meats much, they actually don't really appeal to me... except cooked chicken at my parents' house or sausages if I get them (which I don't anymore) maybe. I haven't gotten a cold that lasted over a day for years, I'm sure it's because of my hugely better nutrition all that time.
Come on guys... Let's put this thread in perspective:
(1) What paleo diet, in which region, at what period in time are we talking about?
- and were the paleo people at that time and that region healthy or just surviving?
- honestly, everything is speculation.
(2) My modern idea of Paleo Diet is does it work? Especially on you. And how long has it been working so far. Can you replicate this success with your kids and loved ones?
- I'm not practicing raw paleo diet because of any dogma, I'm just looking for what makes me achieve higher levels of health.
I'm sure all of us are in search of better health and not just about imitating some conceived cavemen. Where earth conditions, flora, fauna, air, gravity, temperature, solar, lunar may have been pretty much different than it is today.
I'll let others answer those questions as I don't want to be hogging the topic.
However isn't it good that at least we know we should live as we were evolved to live? Many people don't seem to know or understand that at all... they fiddle around with diets, and cookbooks, and recipes, and mixing, and taking oils with fat (sorry Goodsamaritan!!!) etc. It's basically pseudoscience... at least we're wise enough to look at paleo man and what he ate.
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However isn't it good that at least we know we should live as we were evolved to live? Many people don't seem to know or understand that at all... they fiddle around with diets, and cookbooks, and recipes, and mixing, and taking oils with fat (sorry Goodsamaritan!!!) etc. It's basically pseudoscience... at least we're wise enough to look at paleo man and what he ate.
If you are referring to extra virgin olive oil in Wai Diet, I never indulged in extra virgin olive oil because it tasted bad from my point of view. I did the fruits, eggs and raw fish and Wai Diet did wonders for my health. It just got boring so I added land animals and now technically I'm on raw paleo diet.
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... Today I have experienced one of the worst colds I've had in years. I have no idea why I got this. ... I also am taking megadoses of vitamin c, not that that's going to do much good either. I don't really know what to say... could I try and argue that this cold actually shows that I'm in fine health...? ... I don't know.
... I also got a small bottle of cod liver oil while waiting for my fish supplements... so... ... The funny thing is I ate the big bag of peanuts anyway and gobbled down two tins of fish... ... Look how moderate I am with what I ate today... I somehow feel like this was a slip or falling off the wagon... but I premeditatively did it, I do it a lot. I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. ..
Do you realize this is supposed to be a raw forum and tins of fish are never raw?
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Peanuts? --- Barf
Tins of fish? --- Barf
MegaDoses of Vitamin C? --- Barf
I understand those are wartime / emergency time food.
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I got very sick last time I ate peanuts, and the peanuts were local, fresh and raw. I'm not talking a cold. I'm talking my lymph system stopping.
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Do you realize this is supposed to be a raw forum and tins of fish are never raw?
I told you, I don't really trust the people behind the raw animal protein. I'm going to try to get raw tuna as I hear that's supposed to be an exceptionally safe one, but whether I'll stick to it or not I don't know. Idealistic as you may like it, sometimes you have to just do as 99%+ of other people are doing. I wouldn't dream of just pulling red meat off the aisle and eating it raw.
It's not the being raw that I don't trust (even though there are many fools out there that would think like that), it's the people behind it. The people who give the animals chemicals etc. You're putting your trust in them. I personally need to find out lots more about pesticides etc. in my life (and it seems really hard to really get into this and get this sort of information, textbooks on pesticides go for over $100 on Amazon and might end up being next to useless)... but at least I'm falling in with the crowd and am not exposed to animal medications/hormones. It's a bit like drinking milk!!! Going with the crowd sometimes can actually be a good idea. Let's remember: l love fruit so much I want to eat it all the time... I'm just talking about my comparatively small about of animal protein per week.
Eggs have all of the amino acids we need and in the right quantaties. They also have choline, lecithin(?)... I'm no expert, but I think they're a pretty good source of meat as well. I scramble them just a little bit... partly for the taste and partly because again, neither the agriculture sector or government health regulator give a rat's ass about people who take them raw... they'd likely just say "we told you so". Otherwise I would absolutely take my fish raw and probably eggs as well depending on how they taste.
Wrongham et al may be stupid, but I'll bet you that if you ate a raw + lightly cooked/steamed paleo diet, that you may be worse off... you may be a fatter... you may not enjoy your food as much.... but you would still be doing extremely well compared to people who take dairy, bread, cake, alcohol etc. all the time who are in another league entirely.
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I told you, I don't really trust the people behind the raw animal protein. I'm going to try to get raw tuna as I hear that's supposed to be an exceptionally safe one, but whether I'll stick to it or not I don't know. Idealistic as you may like it, sometimes you have to just do as 99%+ of other people are doing. I wouldn't dream of just pulling red meat off the aisle and eating it raw.
I get my tuna from the nearby fishport and the big wet market. I've seen the big fishports in the provinces where they catch tuna. I've seen the beef cattle running around free in our provincial hills. I even go to the slaughterhouse, followed the delivery truck to the market and seen the butchers handle the meat.
Same with the organic farmer where we buy our vegetables my family has visited his farm and we see that he is authentic and even teaches the other farmers how to do organic farming. And we get into a network of fellow consumers who are serious about our food being safe. So they share their own investigations.
You need to merely network with other people. You are in this forum. Ask your fellow countrymen where they get their organic food.
Whether cooked or raw it makes no difference. You must investigate.
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...I'm not trying to be a fruitarian... I have coffee and tea every day. *shrugs* I don't know. You're the guys mainly saying that I am. ...
I'm not sure what to make of this comment from someone who started a thread entitled "Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than 'zero carb'" and has repeatedly insulted anyone who eats lots of land-based meat. I don't mean any insult myself, but you've written some of the strangest and most puzzling threads I've ever seen.
If you are not a troll, then you seem to be in a state of flux re: diet--searching and experimenting, which gets you into trouble at these specialized forums of people who have mostly already decided what they want to eat. I noticed that there is one thread--the hot topics thread--that allows discussion of fruitarianism. You should probably post there if you want to talk more about it, so as to avoid getting banned, and maybe this thread should be moved there.
Can you clarify, either here or in Hot Topics, what exactly your diet is? It sounds like you are currently eating lots of fruits of any sort, with apples being your year-round favorite and blueberries eaten only in season. You also seem to eat peanuts, cooked fish, occasional eggs, coffee, tea and blueberry juice when blueberries are not in season, and probably water. Anything else?
You've talked about not liking land-based meats much and loving fruits, so taste actually seems to be the biggest driver of your diet.
BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.
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It's not the being raw that I don't trust (even though there are many fools out there that would think like that), it's the people behind it. The people who give the animals chemicals etc. You're putting your trust in them. I personally need to find out lots more about pesticides etc. in my life (and it seems really hard to really get into this and get this sort of information, textbooks on pesticides go for over $100 on Amazon and might end up being next to useless)... but at least I'm falling in with the crowd and am not exposed to animal medications/hormones. It's a bit like drinking milk!!! Going with the crowd sometimes can actually be a good idea. Let's remember: l love fruit so much I want to eat it all the time... I'm just talking about my comparatively small about of animal protein per week.
The being raw is what makes my body strong enough to deal with the rest. I don't give my trust lightly anymore. Get to know which kind of people you can trust in your area. I'm sure there are some good groups. Textbooks could be useless, you're right there. Learn to pay attention to your body, however subtly it speaks. I'm experimenting as I type this to you. I have milk here from grass grazed animals, I played with them, I milked them, they actually wanted to be milked! I didn't chill the milk, I kefired it with biodynamic raisins, I hope it doesn't get me drunk! We'll see.
Eggs have all of the amino acids we need and in the right quantaties. They also have choline, lecithin(?)... I'm no expert, but I think they're a pretty good source of meat as well. I scramble them just a little bit... partly for the taste and partly because again, neither the agriculture sector or government health regulator give a rat's ass about people who take them raw... they'd likely just say "we told you so". Otherwise I would absolutely take my fish raw and probably eggs as well depending on how they taste.
The people who tell us the "perfect" amino acid profile for protein in the human diet are the egg industry. They do not digest like raw meat. I eat my eggs the rare times I now eat them whole (white and yolk) and raw as do I my fish on the rare occasions I eat it. I don't know who "they" are and I'm glad.
Wrongham et al may be stupid, but I'll bet you that if you ate a raw + lightly cooked/steamed paleo diet, that you may be worse off... you may be a fatter... you may not enjoy your food as much.... but you would still be doing extremely well compared to people who take dairy, bread, cake, alcohol etc. all the time who are in another league entirely.
I would have and never will ever venture to live on a bread, cake and alcohol diet. Lightly steamed? Paleo people steamed food? Anyway, I couldn't live on that. Maybe red meat animal's bone broth, but the rest of the altered animal foods so far in my life make me sick when the first bite goes down my throat.
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Thanks for that post Goodsamaritan.
I'm not sure what to make of this comment from someone who started a thread entitled "Fruitarianism/Vegan is closer to a paleo diet than 'zero carb'" and has repeatedly insulted anyone who eats lots of land-based meat. I don't mean any insult myself, but you've written some of the strangest and most puzzling threads I've ever seen.
Veganism has almost nothing to do with healthy eating. As I have repeatedly stated it's that hateful site beyondveg.com that calls anyone with over 75% or something like of their diet fruit a fruitarian.
If you are not a troll, then you seem to be in a state of flux re: diet--searching and experimenting, which gets you into trouble at these specialized forums of people who have mostly already decided what they want to eat. I noticed that there is one thread--the hot topics thread--that allows discussion of fruitarianism. You should probably post there if you want to talk more about it, so as to avoid getting banned, and maybe this thread should be moved there.
This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread. l)
Can you clarify, either here or in Hot Topics, what exactly your diet is? It sounds like you are currently eating lots of fruits of any sort, with apples being your year-round favorite and blueberries eaten only in season. You also seem to eat peanuts, cooked fish, occasional eggs, coffee, tea and blueberry juice when blueberries are not in season, and probably water. Anything else?
I'm going to freeze blueberries this year. Apart from fruit and salads, almost nothing else right now. Since the beginning of the year I've taken lots of things... For the past three or so months, I've stuck 99% to this. But fruit has always been a pretty big fraction of my diet for the past few years, bread/biscuits/milk might have made up the most calories before that, or possibly brief "bad" periods less than a year ago such as being under stress, time-constrained etc... hey, I'm not holding myself up as a shining example. Just that I really believe it's right for *me* and in my own person beliefs... it would be what Australopithecus and early-to-middle paleo man ate.
You've talked about not liking land-based meats much and loving fruits, so taste actually seems to be the biggest driver of your diet.
That's true, and is why I'll never give up fruit.
BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.
Yes I'm well-acquainted with Wrong ham's cooking theory and recent book.
I would have and never will ever venture to live on a bread, cake and alcohol diet. Lightly steamed? Paleo people steamed food? Anyway, I couldn't live on that. Maybe red meat animal's bone broth, but the rest of the altered animal foods so far in my life make me sick when the first bite goes down my throat.
[/quote]
According to Wrongham they did cook. Steaming is just like cooking.
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"This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread."
You do have posts promoting fruitarianism in the "General discussion" board, on the "Blood Type" diet thread.
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Thanks for that post Goodsamaritan.
Veganism has almost nothing to do with healthy eating. As I have repeatedly stated it's that hateful site beyondveg.com that calls anyone with over 75% or something like of their diet fruit a fruitarian.
I see, you were trashing both views and offering your own alternative, not being a troll. You realize, however, that by posting that wording in a Paleo forum you gave the impression you were promoting fruitarianism, right? Was that just to stir things up and get people's interest (if so it worked ;) )?
This IS the "hot topics" board. And it's board not thread. l)
Right you are, this is in hot topics. -[ I'm new to this forum myself, so either I didn't realize that popular topics apparently automatically or manually get moved to that Hot Topic category or I noticed one of your other threads. I'm old school Internet, so to me this is a thread and the whole forum is like what we used to call a "bulletin board." Ha, ha, I'm dating myself.
I'm going to freeze blueberries this year. Apart from fruit and salads, almost nothing else right now.
K, what's in your salads?
Just that I really believe it's right for *me* and in my own person beliefs... it would be what Australopithecus and early-to-middle paleo man ate.
Interesting. Was it Man the Hunted that caused you to focus on Australopithecus and the early Paleolithic, or Origin of Species, or what? Most scientists and doctors in Paleo nutrition focus on the last 10,000 - 100,000 years of the Paleolithic, because that's what we know best, but I agree that the earlier periods have relevance also. There will be many debates over what time frames to give most credence to, which is part of the reason most people don't talk about more than 10-20,000 years ago, to avoid that debate.
That's true, and is why I'll never give up fruit.
Because taste is a major driver for you, it also means you'll probably never be fully accepted by the vegans/vegetarians/fruitarians, since they tend to be PETA-type-philosophy-based and very strict, which you probably know already. Taste is not very PC. ;)
Yes I'm well-acquainted with Wrong ham's cooking theory and recent book.
Heh, it's refreshingly nice to find a plant-based dieter who agrees that Wrangham is wrong, given that Wrangham's purpose seems to have been to promote politically-correct plant-eating, feminism and neotenized/effeminate conceptions of manhood.
According to Wrongham they did cook. Steaming is just like cooking.
Uh oh, big mistake to quote Wrongham. :o I learned that one the hard way--even though I tried to explain that I don't agree with him.
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BTW, I'm not sure if you know, but "Wrongham" is William's joke-name for Richard Wrangham.
I had a feeling that I could do better, so typed "epithet definition" into scroogle, and it's right.
So Wrongham is a good epithet for Richard Wrangham. IMHO ;)
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K, what's in your salads?
Leafy greens, mainly different types of lettuce. You can buy lots of them in any supermarket here... don't tell me they don't sell ready-washed salads in the US... :o
Interesting. Was it Man the Hunted that caused you to focus on Australopithecus and the early Paleolithic, or Origin of Species, or what? Most scientists and doctors in Paleo nutrition focus on the last 10,000 - 100,000 years of the Paleolithic, because that's what we know best, but I agree that the earlier periods have relevance also. There will be many debates over what time frames to give most credence to, which is part of the reason most people don't talk about more than 10-20,000 years ago, to avoid that debate.
It was all types of primate and paleoanthropic (stupid firefox is telling me that's spelt wrong and won't offer proper alternatives, philanthropist my ass) literature. I ordered the lastest edition (something like June 2009) of The Human Career, a highly revered textbook that is like the Grey's Anatomy of paleoanthropology.
Because taste is a major driver for you, it also means you'll probably never be fully accepted by the vegans/vegetarians/fruitarians, since they tend to be PETA-type-philosophy-based and very strict, which you probably know already. Taste is not very PC. ;)
What is this, PaleoPhil being highly ignorant and wrong Day or something? All of the fruitarian sites I have EVER seen and the message board and raw food boards in general ALL talk about how much they love fruit and the taste of it. I personally have little allegiance to animals, even though I do view it as a pro that I'm not eating them when it comes down to it they don't enter into part of the decision.
Heh, it's refreshingly nice to find a plant-based dieter who agrees that Wrangham is wrong, given that Wrangham's purpose seems to have been to promote politically-correct plant-eating, feminism and neotenized/effeminate conceptions of manhood.
Uh oh, big mistake to quote Wrongham. :o I learned that one the hard way--even though I tried to explain that I don't agree with him.
I don't really like Wrongham for a few reasons, you shouldn't assume things about people. Just because a very high percentage of my diet is fruit doesn't mean I'm some tree-hugging, self-chaining, animal welfare activist!!! ;D :P ;) (although incidentally I actually do happen to be the last one in that I do want mandatory social welfare for the Orangutans paid for by the people that rip up their homes and lives and otherwise starve them to death...) Seriously consider donating to these guys, you say I'm your relative, THEY'RE your relatives as well. They're starving to death and becoming extinct.
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Leafy greens, mainly different types of lettuce. You can buy lots of them in any supermarket here... don't tell me they don't sell ready-washed salads in the US... :o
Yes, that's true. I normally eat them myself, but they'll go on the prohibited list soon when I'm done testing your semi-fruitarian advice and I begin my Lex Rooker experiment. LOL!
I ordered the lastest edition (something like June 2009) of The Human Career, a highly revered textbook that is like the Grey's Anatomy of paleoanthropology.
Looks good; added it to my wish list, thanks.
If you like that, then I recommend the writings of the following Anthropologists and Evolutionary Biologists on natural human diet and lifestyle:
> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Jeanne Sept, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
If I missed any good ones, I hope someone will let me know.
What is this, PaleoPhil being highly ignorant and wrong Day or something? All of the fruitarian sites I have EVER seen and the message board and raw food boards in general ALL talk about how much they love fruit and the taste of it.
More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?
...I do want mandatory social welfare for the Orangutans paid for by the people that rip up their homes and lives and otherwise starve them to death...) Seriously consider donating to these guys, you say I'm your relative, THEY'RE your relatives as well. They're starving to death and becoming extinct.
And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.
Just because I eat animals doesn't mean I don't respect them, quite the contrary. That may sound strange to a moderner, but to a hunter-gatherer (like the Inuit, Lakota, etc.) and even to some traditional pastoralists it would make perfect sense. The propagandists among plant-only-eaters tend to tell lies about meat eaters and hunter gatherers and lump us all together into extreme charicatures based on the most disrespectful and unethical of modern meat eaters. They may have told you some of these lies. Frequently, the animals HGs eat most often are the most sacred, and the first part of the animal they eat tends to be the most sacred part. They are regarded as cousins or brothers or spirit-beings, rather than as mere food. Eating sacred animals brings health and spiritual euphoria to the eater, which confirms that it is part of the design of Nature/Creator. Perhaps you experience this when you eat wild fish. It is seen as a way of continuing the life of that prey animal, rather than bringing it to a final end.
Think about it, all animals die. If they are not eaten then their corpses rot. Is rotting in the sun really so much better than being eaten by a fellow creature and thus giving life to another? Mother Nature/Gaia/Creator has designed it so that prey are eaten by predators and thus give life out of their deaths. Who are we to short-circuit that loop by attempting to remove ourselves from it? Do we really wish to place ourselves above the gods, to make gods of ourselves?
For myself, I hope my body receives a natural burial so that I may be eaten by animals or worms and other tiny creatures, so that my body and perhaps spirit may give life to them. I like what the Tibetans do, for instance. If not that, then cremated instead of being pumped full of toxic chemicals in a vain attempt to preserve my corpse, and thus turned into a bringer of suffering and death to living things.
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> If I missed any good ones, I hope someone will let me know.
More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?
And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.
http://fabulousforagers.ning.com/forum/topics/fanatical-vegan (http://fabulousforagers.ning.com/forum/topics/fanatical-vegan)
In some of my experience, quite a number of raw vegans in forum give the definite impression that if you "still" eat cooked meat, that there's hope for you yet, and you just didn't know, but they will teach you. If you eat raw meat, then you are just plain going to "h" "e" dbl hockey sticks and you are fair game for them to do whatever they can to you; because if not they think you will bludgeon them, eat they're baby brother, etc.
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Yes, that's true. I normally eat them myself, but they'll go on the prohibited list soon when I'm done testing your semi-fruitarian advice and I begin my Lex Rooker experiment. LOL!
(http://files.getdropbox.com/u/226973/Photos/ohyou.jpg)
Why oh why does everyone want to be such a fanatic online?! It's fine to do what you feel/what you feel is good for your health. However, going totally over the edge and being 100% Wai and then 100% animal protein and then 90% fat and taking NOTHING ELSE despite ALL THE EVIDENCE because you're trying to be "hardcore" and prove something and your diet is so miraculous it will work.... could be extremely damaging. I think you appeared almost disappointed at my weekend indulgences, I half-suspect you'd prefer if I was a total fruitarian... those crazy spiritual fruitarians who'll eventually go back to a higher protein diet, the higher the better for them..... the fact is I'm not and they don't, and my diet is a lot safer and more moderate than many/most/all here....
Looks good; added it to my wish list, thanks.
It came today and it's extremely good from what I've seen so far.
If you like that, then I recommend the writings of the following Anthropologists and Evolutionary Biologists on natural human diet and lifestyle:
> H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS, Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, "ANTHROPOLOGICAL RESEARCH REVEALS HUMAN DIETARY REQUIREMENTS FOR OPTIMAL HEALTH," Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45, http://www.empowerfoods.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2676&start=0&sid=fedadaa4655393a180573cf0cb436634
> Geoff Bond, Nutritional Anthropologist and Evolutionary Biologist, "Natural Eating: The Bond Effect," http://www.naturaleater.com/index.htm; “Deadly Harvest: The Intimate Link Between our Health and Our Food,” Square One Publishers, New York, March 2007.
> Kristen Hawkes, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, hawkes@anthro.utah.edu, http://www.anthro.utah.edu/hawkes.html
> Eric B. Ross, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology, Institute of Social Studies, co-editor of Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits
> Jeanne Sept, Indiana University, teaches "Prehistoric Diet and Nutrition," http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/teach/P380/P380read.html
> Mark F. Teaford, Professor of Anthropology, Center for Functional Anatomy and Evolution at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
> Lionel Tiger, Charles Darwin Professor of Anthropology, Rutgers University, "The Caveman Diet," Wall Street Journal, July 9, 2002, http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p81.htm
> Peter S. Ungar, Professor of Anthropology, University of Utah, co-editor of Human Diet: Its Origin and Evolution
Okay thanks, I'll save that list.
More ad hominem, eh? Oh well. Yes, but every fruitarian, vegetarian and vegan discussion board I've seen has some very vocal and fanatical members who don't take kindly to people who would even consider eating cooked fish or eggs, especially RAW veggie boards. You seem to keep forgetting that many of us here have at least some experience with those ways of eating and those people in the past. Are you telling me you haven't taken any flack at all for eating cooked fish yet? Have they not found out?
I've tried to mention it casually if I did do it, I've even said it on that rawfoodsupport vegan board!!! I made a post or two on iheartfruit.com and I admit I felt a bit odd saying something about eating fish there. But when you think about it.... we're actually also related to BANANAS, we share 50% of our DNA with them in fact! Pickers don't leave the bananas drop down, they pick them off before they fall, hence eating your relatives. *shrugs* And eating bacteria... vitamin b12 which you will die without is much worse because they're far more related!!!! Eggs, fish aren't so bad.
And you also shouldn't assume things about me. I know animals are my relatives and I've always liked Orang-utans, the forest people. Maybe because they look and act like me. ;D Please post a link to that charity. By coincidence I was thinking of looking for one myself when you reminded me about Orang-utans and I looked them up and learned that their habitats are being destroyed by forest fires and logging, but then got distracted by a phone call and forgot. I do, however, have a requirement that any charity I contribute to not promote PETA or any other terrorist or propagandist groups or vegetarianism or the taking away of the rights of indigenous HG peoples to hunt.
I've donated to this one, I like them because they appear to be a good society, you can volunteer YOURSELF to do work (which would be really cool)... and you can donate how much you want. You can also become a member of the society for keeping you updated on it etc.
http://www.orangutans-sos.org/
By all means have a look around and look up other websites as well that let you donate to the cause of the Orangutans/People of the Forest. They usually offer to send you out stuff to show that you're helping them so you can do that if you want.
Just because I eat animals doesn't mean I don't respect them, quite the contrary. That may sound strange to a moderner, but to a hunter-gatherer (like the Inuit, Lakota, etc.) and even to some traditional pastoralists it would make perfect sense. The propagandists among plant-only-eaters tend to tell lies about meat eaters and hunter gatherers and lump us all together into extreme charicatures based on the most disrespectful and unethical of modern meat eaters. They may have told you some of these lies. Frequently, the animals HGs eat most often are the most sacred, and the first part of the animal they eat tends to be the most sacred part. They are regarded as cousins or brothers or spirit-beings, rather than as mere food. Eating sacred animals brings health and spiritual euphoria to the eater, which confirms that it is part of the design of Nature/Creator. Perhaps you experience this when you eat wild fish. It is seen as a way of continuing the life of that prey animal, rather than bringing it to a final end.
And why don't you go out and live in the savanna in Africa then and that will also help continue human life by natural workings? I'm sure many hungry leopards and lions would be delighted to welcome you there and include you in the natural workings of the circle of life. :)
Think about it, all animals die. If they are not eaten then their corpses rot. Is rotting in the sun really so much better than being eaten by a fellow creature and thus giving life to another? Mother Nature/Gaia/Creator has designed it so that prey are eaten by predators and thus give life out of their deaths. Who are we to short-circuit that loop by attempting to remove ourselves from it? Do we really wish to place ourselves above the gods, to make gods of ourselves?
Again, I do not believe we were designed to be predators. I could just as well say "Who am I to short-circuit the loop" the other way by eating something I never really wanted or would have caught.
For myself, I hope my body receives a natural burial so that I may be eaten by animals or worms and other tiny creatures, so that my body and perhaps spirit may give life to them. I like what the Tibetans do, for instance. If not that, then cremated instead of being pumped full of toxic chemicals in a vain attempt to preserve my corpse, and thus turned into a bringer of suffering and death to living things.
I'd take the toxic chemicals myself. ;) I don't know, I'd be interested in it if it was any way feasible. But it definitely wouldn't happen in the next 1,000 years that I'd be reanimated. Medical science so far knows NOTHING.
My one caveat would be... and this is just my own personal nonsensical nightmare... but maybe I would somehow have a certain level of consciousness... but be in unbelievable pain as I died away at the slowest rate possible... for millions and millions of years.... :o
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Why oh why does everyone want to be such a fanatic online?! ....
Well, I know you're not talking about me, because I have been consistently and gradually reducing the carbs and the reason I've been doing it is it has provided fantastic real benefits. The only change I made from this path was at your suggestion and the results were poor!
For whatever reason, it hasn't been sinking in with you that most or all of us here are experiencing marvelous improvements on a lower-carb diet than your extreme high-carb diet. Please stop criticizing us and RPD until you try the low-carb RPD or even just a significantly lower-carb, higher fat RPD than what you've been doing (with no peanuts, which are not Paleo) for at least a week, just as I tried eating a lot of fruits, nuts, fish and eggs and less land mammal meat and fat for a week when you suggested I eat more fruits and less land meats. Until then, you don't know what you're talking about. Also, your diet would be more convincing to others if you behaved in a calm and polite manner instead of like someone wired on carbs.
Please read the Welcome section which says in part, "While we do welcome disagreement with any idea, due to past experiences here, we must ask that if your sole purpose in participation is to disparage this diet or the people who follow it, that you not bother joining (In other words, trolls will not be tolerated for long here). Also, please refrain from personal attacks and other speech that is not constructive in nature to an RPD lifestyle."
and my diet is a lot safer and more moderate than many/most/all here....
Please speak for yourself. I tried your advice and experienced a return of some of my symptoms as a result. I've had to cut the experiment with your extremely fruity diet short because my tooth was starting to get a little loose again, in addition to the other symptoms I mentioned. Maybe you're right and the reason is the damage I experienced years ago from SAD--although my blood sugar has always measured within the normal range since I went standard-Paleo. Whatever the reason, I do much better when I eat like Lex than when I eat like you.
Just as Lex said, the changes for better or worse from diet can happen rapidly. Everything that Lex has told me has turned out to be true for me and his help has been priceless. Nothing you've recommended has worked for me. So thanks, but no thanks. I'm happy for you that you're satisfied with your diet, but to continue following your advice at this point would be a mark of insanity on my part. I hope I'll be able to handle fruits better in the future, but right now I can only handle a limited amount of low-sugar fruits, and I actually do worse on apples than I do on berries. As I've said before, I'm hoping to add berries and other occasional fruits like apples back into my diet after the Lex experiment. Lex used to do that but apparently found that he did better when he eliminated fruits entirely, though he can speak to that better than I can.
It came today and it's extremely good from what I've seen so far. Only thing is it is 1024 pages...
Wow. Let me know if you find anything interesting in it.
Eggs, fish aren't so bad.
If you can afford it, you could probably get some good results by eating lots of wild fish--cooked as little as you can handle--free-range eggs, greens and a moderate amount of low-sugar fruits.
http://www.orangutans-sos.org
Thanks
And why don't you go out and live in the savanna in Africa then and that will also help continue human life by natural workings? I'm sure many hungry leopards and lions would be delighted to welcome you there and include you in the natural workings of the circle of life. :)
Yes! Heh, maybe you're finally starting to understand me. My dream would be to live with indigenous hunter-gatherers or free-range pastoralists who have access to plentiful big game--adopt the old ways of the human beings, before civilization caused the Great Forgetting. I would enjoy the health benefits and help them defend their way of life against the Takers (governments, corporations, PETA, vegetarians, etc.), and I wouldn't blame the leopards and lions one bit for trying to take a nip out of me now and then to see if I was good food. :D
Living with the San of inner Africa would be nice, except that their big game is growing increasingly scarce and governments are throwing them off their land and banning them from hunting. Then again, trying to bring back the big game and their way of life would be an interesting challenge, and they do have the oldest hunter-gatherer culture and genes yet discovered on earth. A more realistic goal might be to try to help the Lakota, or the Abenaki here in Vermont, or my possible Mohawk relatives in Canada, return to something resembling their old way of life. Drs. Wortman, Phinney and Rosedale have been doing that with some success with the Namgis and Inuit in Alaska (on a diet that is 80 to 83% fats from animals, fish and seafood!).
Again, I do not believe we were designed to be predators. I could just as well say "Who am I to short-circuit the loop" the other way by eating something I never really wanted or would have caught.
Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn or the teachings of any hunter-gatherer people who remember the old ways and you may come to understand. I'm afraid I don't have the time to explain it all and one must be open to it to fully grasp it.
I'd take the toxic chemicals myself. ;) I don't know, I'd be interested in it if it was any way feasible. But it definitely wouldn't happen in the next 1,000 years that I'd be reanimated.
Not me. I'd much rather that my body be eaten by hyenas than made into a hazardous waste site. Why should humans be the only animals to not get eaten (though I would prefer after death, of course ;D) ? Besides, you wouldn't WANT to be reanimated after they pump your body full of that toxic crap--which is rather ironic. It's all for looks so the funeral parlor industry can make more dough. What else is new.
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Superinfinity's diet:
RAW FRUIT - you do this.
RAW VEGS - you do this.
RAW ANIMAL FOOD - you do not do this???
Are you interested in eating a RAW PALEO DIET? Yes or No?
There are many raw omnivores here like Raw Kyle, Tyler Durden, GoodSamaritan, Rawzi, Skinny Devil, etc.
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Superinfinity, you had or have a dental problem, so why not read the masterwork on specifically that field, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration", by Weston A. Price DDS?
Then you could engage in informed discourse, instead of what you are now doing.
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Superinfinity, you had or have a dental problem, so why not read the masterwork on specifically that field, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration", by Weston A. Price DDS?
Then you could engage in informed discourse, instead of what you are now doing.
Okay fine you got me, I never read that book fully, I'll read it from start to finish. However I DID read the bits on teeth a while back and fair amounts of the rest of it and it seemed to me that he was 95% saying a primitive diet (ie. ANY primitive diet) was the best and 5% saying organic animal proteins/products might help. For example he mentioned vitamin d from cow's milk/fish a few times, however that's because I think they didn't know back then you could get it from the sun!!!
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Okay fine you got me, I never read that book fully, I'll read it from start to finish. However I DID read the bits on teeth a while back and fair amounts of the rest of it and it seemed to me that he was 95% saying a primitive diet (ie. ANY primitive diet) was the best and 5% saying organic animal proteins/products might help. For example he mentioned vitamin d from cow's milk/fish a few times, however that's because I think they didn't know back then you could get it from the sun!!!
You are wrong about everything you just said.
1. They very much DID know you could get it from the sun. Dr. Price actually mentions the process of irradiating a Vitamin D percursor to get Vitamin D. Here's a quote from chapter 15:
"There is a misapprehension with regard to the possibility that humans may obtain enough of the vitamin D group of activators from our modern plant foods or from sunshine. This is due to the belief viosterol or similar products by other names, derived by exposing ergosterol to ultraviolet light, offer all of the nutritional factors involved in the vitamin D group. I have emphasized that there are known to be at least eight D factors that have been definitely isolated and twelve that have been reported as partially isolated."
2. Dr. Price SPECIFICALLY made the point that, before he went on his journeys, he thought he would be able to find a plant food that would make eating animals unecessary. He SPECIFICALLY says that he was disappointed to find out how important animal products are. Here's a quote from chapter 7:
"This was a matter of keen interest, and at the same time disappointment, since one of the purposes of the expedition to the South Seas was to find, if possible, plants or fruits which together, without the use of animal products, were capable of providing all of the requirements of the body for growth and for maintenance of good health..."
I'm actually glad that you haven't read the book yet. I was thinking you were really dumb to have actually read the book, and still say the things you were saying. No offense, but it was clear that, if you had read it, you sure didn't ABSORB much of it. LOL
Now it's time to READ THE BOOK. If you don't have a copy, here's a link to the first 20 chapters online:
journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html (http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html)
You are really doing a great job. A great job of being wrong. It's like John Steinbeck said:
"My father had one quality of genius. He was always wrong."
Are you sure you're not related to Steinbeck's dad? LOL
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You are wrong about everything you just said.
Relent, cherimoya_kid.
He already said he had not read the whole book, and intends to do it.