Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: rawlion on September 04, 2009, 03:21:40 pm
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Hi friends,
As I understand, butter is not in high favour with rawpaleo dieters. I'd like you to assault it, state why it is inferior to any other animal fats, why it's consumption is considered to be unhealthy and point to its main nutritional disadvantages in general. On my part, I'll try to defend it and, if possible, provide contrarguments.
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I believe raw organic clarified butter from pastured cow can be a good source of fat for someone who can't find fat from grass fed animals. It is a much better choice than vegetable oils.
Butter concentrates some problematic substances like lactose, casein, hormones, AGEs,.. that raw fat does not.
It is not a paleo food in the sense that our ancestors did not eat butter, so it is not surprising that so many people can't tolerate it.
Check that : http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/the-dangers-of-(raw)-dairy-consumption/
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My wife's aunt was prescribed ghee 3 tablespoons a day for her fat. That's much better than her vegetable oils and hydrogenated oils. She won't eat raw animal fats as she isn't aculturated to it yet. She says her seizures and mental health has improved.
I used to use butter as a crutch when I could not source good fat.
Butter is easy to find in the supermarket, albeit Anchor butter is pasteurized.
Ghee is easy to find in an Indian grocery.
But after some time when experience and taste has set in, even my own kids prefer raw yellow grass fed beef fat and fertilized duck egg yolks over anchor pasteurized butter or ghee. It's about TASTE. anchor butter doesn't taste good. beef fat and egg yolks taste good.
If I had more money I'd get bone marrow more often. Yummier.
I use ghee as my massage oil.
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Butter concentrates some problematic substances like lactose, casein, hormones, AGEs,.. that raw fat does not.
Butter is made by churning fresh or fermented cream or milk. I agree that butter made from fresh cream may contain some traces of lactose, around 0.4-0.6g per 100g. But butter made from fermented cream most likely will have none. With that said, would less than 1 g of lactose be enough to trigger onset of any intolerance? I doubt it.
The amount of casein in butter is minimal and can often be tolerated without a problem even by individuals who are highly sensitive to milk and other dairy products. 100g of butter has about 0.8g of total protein. If casein made up about 80% of that, it would be less than 0.7 of a gram. I don't think that amount could be problematic.
If you're concerned about growth hormones. Organic butter is free of the potentially dangerous pesticides, antibiotics, and growth hormones that can be found in conventional butter products.
AGEs may be formed external to the body (exogenously) by heating (e.g., cooking) sugars with fats or proteins; or inside the body (endogenously) through normal metabolism and aging. RAW butter does not contain Advanced Glycation End products.
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Butter is made by churning fresh or fermented cream or milk. I agree that butter made from fresh cream may contain some traces of lactose, around 0.4-0.6g per 100g. But butter made from fermented cream most likely will have none. With that said, would less than 1 g of lactose be enough to trigger onset of any intolerance? I doubt it.
The amount of casein in butter is minimal and can often be tolerated without a problem even by individuals who are highly sensitive to milk and other dairy products. 100g of butter has about 0.8g of total protein. If casein made up about 80% of that, it would be less than 0.7 of a gram. I don't think that amount could be problematic.
Whatever the amount of lactose and casein that remains in raw fermented butter, some people can't tolerate them.
If you're concerned about growth hormones. Organic butter is free of the potentially dangerous pesticides, antibiotics, and growth hormones that can be found in conventional butter products.
No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html
There are some past issues of thepaleodiet newsletter that discuss the dangerous "hormones in milk". Maybe someone has the links ?
AGEs may be formed external to the body (exogenously) by heating (e.g., cooking) sugars with fats or proteins; or inside the body (endogenously) through normal metabolism and aging. RAW butter does not contain Advanced Glycation End products.
Well, Olive oil contains a high amount of AGEs. It is (at least in France) always cold extracted.
Pasteurized butter is one of the food that contains the most AGEs.
The amount of AGEs in raw butter is probably not as high, but I would not be surprised that one can find a non-negligible quantity, unless you have some evidences for the contrary ?
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I would add to carnivore's post - you say 'trigger the onset of intolerance'....If someone has a severe allergic reaction then 'trigger' makes sense.
However, if it's less bad, then it could just be one of the foods or factors raising histamine contributing to a bad situation.
I find to be honest I can eat butter without feeling too bad, but when I strictly cut out all things I tested intolerant to I reached a new level of mental function and peace.
Butter is a slippery adversary...you must attack with caution.
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I agree that even microscopic traces of lactose and casein in raw butter can cause a food-intolerance/allergy towwards raw butter as I've come across people mentioning that they had such a reaction.
On the other hand, AGEs are only a problem with raw foods if the relevant product is from an unhealthy source(eg:- grainfed meat).I haven't heard of raw olive oil or raw butter ever having AGEs(unless coming from grainfed cows, presumably), and am somewhat sceptical re this.
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No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html
Why do you think that butter concentrates them?
I'm sure those hormones were found in conventional butter, most likely from non-organic cows. I'd like to see the results obtained from organic pastured animals.
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On the other hand, AGEs are only a problem with raw foods if the relevant product is from an unhealthy source(eg:- grainfed meat).I haven't heard of raw olive oil or raw butter ever having AGEs(unless coming from grainfed cows, presumably), and am somewhat sceptical re this.
In the link your provided (http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf) :
Oil, olive 120 kU/mL
Butter 265 kU/
I don't know in America, but in France, even the lowest quality of olive oil is cold extracted simply because one does not extract more oil with heating. t
I don't think this olive oil was heated at more than 50°C.
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That link covered pasteurised/heated foods and their AGE-contents, so the olive oil couldn't have been raw, AFAIA.
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In the link your provided (http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf) :
Oil, olive 120 kU/mL
Butter 265 kU/
I don't know in America, but in France, even the lowest quality of olive oil is cold extracted simply because one does not extract more oil with heating. t
I don't think this olive oil was heated at more than 50°C.
Table 1. Advanced glycoxidation end products (AGE) content of selected foods prepared by standard cooking methods...
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Why do you think that butter concentrates them?
I'm sure those hormones were found in conventional butter, most likely from non-organic cows. I'd like to see the results obtained from organic pastured animals.
What makes you think that organic pastured cow do not manufacture these hormones that are required by the growing calf ?
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Table 1. Advanced glycoxidation end products (AGE) content of selected foods prepared by standard cooking methods...
The standard cooking method to make olive oil is to cold extracted the olives...
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What makes you think that organic pastured cow do not manufacture these hormones that are required by the growing calf ?
At about 6 months of age, cattle are commonly injected with slow-release pellets of estrogen, which can speed up growth. This can be the case.
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At about 6 months of age, cattle are commonly injected with slow-release pellets of estrogen, which can speed up growth. This can be the case.
And what about the other hormones ?
Milk contains several hormones that are addressed to the growing calf, not to the human.
Did you read that ?
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/the-dangers-of-(raw)-dairy-consumption/msg5811/#msg5811
And also thepaleodiet newsletters about milk and dairy ?
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And what about the other hormones ?
Milk contains several hormones that are addressed to the growing calf, not to the human.
Does it? I'm not talking about milk, dairy or whatever. The food in question is BUTTER!
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No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html
Article Summary
Loren Cordain, PhD, author of The Paleo Diet, has proposed the theory that a growth factor in milk called betacellulin may contribute to cancer.
Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) directly cancels out the effect of betacellulin on cancer cells and prevents cancer in laboratory experiments, especially in conjunction with saturated fat. Grass-fed milk contains five times more CLA than grain-fed milk and is rich in saturated fat.
Epidemiological studies do not support a relationship between commercial milk products and cancers of the breast, lung, stomach or pancreas. Lowfat milk, but not whole milk, may contribute to ovarian and prostate cancers. High-fat dairy products are associated with a reduced risk of colorectal cancer.
The association between grass-fed milk and cancer incidence has not been studied, but based on laboratory experiments we can expect its high CLA content to afford us powerful protection against cancer.
http://www.realmilk.com/betacellulin.html
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No, I am talking about naturally occurring hormones in milk that butter concentrates : Insulin, IGF-1, Betacellulin (BTC), Estrogens (particularly Estrone Sulfate), Precursors of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) :
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/hormones-in-milk-part-1-876841.html
As far I am aware some of the hormones in milk that can turn into dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, are actually in their precursor status. They may be turned into active DHT during the processing. RAW butter as a source of it? I wouldn't be that sure...
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Does it? I'm not talking about milk, dairy or whatever. The food in question is BUTTER!
So you want me to believe that all the hormones in bovine milk disapeare during the butter processing and that it just leaves pure fat and water in the stuff ?
You'll have to explain me how this miracle happens !
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7C-4KNMB0V-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1000721484&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dbd8c7c2064947a4c193710f07d74490
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So you want me to believe that all the hormones in bovine milk disapeare during the butter processing and that it just leaves pure fat and water in the stuff ?
You'll have to explain me how this miracle happens !
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T7C-4KNMB0V-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1000721484&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=dbd8c7c2064947a4c193710f07d74490
Not at all. There is a lot of stuff there... I don't argue with that!
http://tinyurl.com/ls9taq
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correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all those hormones PROTEINS, therefore their presence in raw butter or ghee would be very little?
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Butter is mainly small/medium chain triglycerides, while fat is mainly long chain TG. The former is metabolised like sugar, while the latter does not burden the liver.
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Rawlion, butter is more expensive than most suet (when comparing grain-fed to grain-fed or grass-fed to grass-fed). Do you think butter is superior to suet, nutritionally? If not, why bother with it?
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I don't have any information to back this up, but common sense would tell me that the particular fats and their proportions in butter would be less health giving than the fats on an animals body. And by health giving I mean to humans, who have evolved to eat the body fat but not the milk fat, especially not the milk fat in a concentrated form as butter.
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Butter has a different fat profile to that of animal flesh fat - it contains many short and medium chain fatty acids whereas tissue fat contains only long chain fatty acids. The metabolic pathway is virtually identical when eating fat from meat as energy or using your own body fat for energy (fasting/calorie deficit) but is changed when eating dairy fats or carbohydrates. My hypothesis is that eating only fat from meat keeps a more stable energy supply (as the body only ever uses one type of energy source) and keeps the body overall in regards to hormones, metabolic rate, thyroid etc stable and not fluctuate between times of eating and fasting.
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correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all those hormones PROTEINS, therefore their presence in raw butter or ghee would be very little?
This is just what I wanted to say. There may be plenty of hormones in milk, but they are protein bound, so little if any remain in butter...
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Rawlion, butter is more expensive than most suet (when comparing grain-fed to grain-fed or grass-fed to grass-fed). Do you think butter is superior to suet, nutritionally? If not, why bother with it?
Personally, I find butter to be more easily digested as compared to suet.
Here are some further reasons why would I be so insistent that you eat butter... Take a look at the long list of the benefits you receive when you include it in your diet:
1 Butter is rich in the most easily absorbable form of Vitamin A necessary for thyroid and adrenal health.
2 Contains lauric acid, important in treating fungal infections and candida.
3 Contains lecithin, essential for cholesterol metabolism.
4 Contains anti-oxidants that protect against free radical damage.
5 Has anti-oxidants that protect against weakening arteries.
6 Is a great source of Vitamins E and K.
7 Is a very rich source of the vital mineral selenium.
8 Saturated fats in butter have strong anti-tumor and anti-cancer properties.
9 Butter contains conjugated linoleic acid, which is a potent anti-cancer agent, muscle builder, and immunity booster
10 Vitamin D found in butter is essential to absorption of calcium.
11 Protects against tooth decay.
12 Is your only source of an anti-stiffness factor, which protects against calcification of the joints.
13 Anti-stiffness factor in butter also prevents hardening of the arteries, cataracts, and calcification of the pineal gland.
14 Is a source of Activator X, which helps your body absorb minerals.
15 Is a source of iodine in highly absorbable form.
16 May promote fertility in women.
17 Is a source of quick energy, and is not stored in our bodies adipose tissue.
18 Cholesterol found in butterfat is essential to children's brain and nervous system development.
19 Contains Arachidonic Acid (AA) which plays a role in brain function and is a vital component of cell membranes.
20 Protects against gastrointestinal infections in the very young or the elderly.
maybe even more...
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Butter is mainly small/medium chain triglycerides, while fat is mainly long chain TG. The former is metabolised like sugar, while the latter does not burden the liver.
You are wrong.
In addition to saturation, fatty acids are short, medium, or long.
Short chain fatty acids (SCFA) are fatty acids with aliphatic tails of fewer than six carbons.
Medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) are fatty acids with aliphatic tails of 6–12 carbons, which can form medium chain triglycerides.
Long chain fatty acids (LCFA) are fatty acids with aliphatic tails longer than 12 carbons.
I prepared the chart. You can see that butter is mostly LCFA, just like suet:
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Butter is mainly small/medium chain triglycerides, while fat is mainly long chain TG. The former is metabolised like sugar, while the latter does not burden the liver.
No, not quite like sugar.
Short- and medium chain fatty acids are absorbed directly into the blood via intestine capillaries and travel through the portal vein just as other absorbed nutrients do. However, long chain fatty acids are too large to be directly released into the tiny intestine capillaries. Instead they are absorbed into the fatty walls of the intestine villi and reassembled again into triglycerides. The triglycerides are coated with cholesterol and protein (protein coat) into a compound called a chylomicron.
Within the villi, the chylomicron enters a lymphatic capillary called a lacteal, which merges into larger lymphatic vessels. It is transported via the lymphatic system and the thoracic duct up to a location near the heart (where the arteries and veins are larger). The thoracic duct empties the chylomicrons into the bloodstream via the left subclavian vein. At this point the chylomicrons can transport the triglycerides to where they are needed.
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Butter has 19% of short/medium fatty acids, while suet has only 2.8%.
I see butter more like a medecine than a food. W.A. Price got good results with his high quality butter. They are indeed many available nutrients that most of us lack on a SAD.
However, like medecine, it can have some side effects.
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Butter has 19% of short/medium fatty acids, while suet has only 2.8%.
I see butter more like a medecine than a food. W.A. Price got good results with his high quality butter. They are indeed many available nutrients that most of us lack on a SAD.
However, like medecine, it can have some side effects.
Food scientists have long noted the nutritional benefits of medium-chain triglycerides...
http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article10612.htm
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How's the butter working out?
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Well, butter is a HUGE dilemma for me. That is why I decided to start this thread.
Way back in 2007, when I just started the Primal Diet, little did I know that some foods could be problematic. At the time my adrenals were strong enough to protect me from any allergic reactions. I could eat dairy, eggs, fruits without problems. But when I exhausted them through intermittent fasting everything changed dramatically. My overall health declined rapidly and my tolerance to most foods severely decreased. The key to treating allergies is to build the adrenals. So far it has been the greatest challenge in my life.
As compared to other animal fats, butter, along with yolks, seems to be much easier for digestion. Suet would be the hardest. Marrow and soft subcutaneous fat somewhere in between. So the issue of digestibility worried me most.
Then the quality problem. We don’t have such notion as “organic” or “grass fed” in this country. And with the fat and organs you risk the most of getting all those toxic substances that the animals might have been given. Of all the fats that I have access to, I can only be sure about butter (I do it myself from fermented cream). All the rest are risky choices…
Finally, although the quality of butter in question is exceptional, it is still the cheapest source of fat around here…
Currently I don’t consume any butter. Just like the eggs, it is purely seasonal food for me. I usually eat it from early spring and through the summer. However, in view of certain circumstances, i.e. my poor digestion, compromised health and all other fats possible toxicity, I was pondering whether I should or should not rely on butter for the rest of the year.
In any way, I have found this discussion to be rather useful and informative…
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Wow, butter cheaper than suet? I've never seen that before. The price for grain-fed suet here has been 50 - 90 cents/lb; this week Land 'o Lakes butter is on sale @ $2.99/lb, and it's usually more. Grass-fed suet was recently introduced at the local health food market. It started out at $5.99 pound, which I think was a mistake, because that is the same price as the grass-fed beef. Then it dropped to 90 cents a pound, which was a bonanza! I'm assuming the new price was just a temporary reduction to clear out some stock, though it wasn't that old and there was no sale tag. Strange, but I'm not complaining. Slanker's grass-fed suet is $2.48/lb, which is still cheaper than butter on sale here.