Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: Ioanna on October 31, 2009, 06:40:33 am
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Well, I thought things were going great... the last (and only?) time I wrote in my journal was to report such an expected but complete change that my digestion (from IBS) seems completely normal... and still does.
I've notice these past two nights though that when I get home from work that my ankles have been huge! Unusual is that I have had to sit most of these past two days due to meetings, computer work, etc. I'm usually on my feet more. My dietary intake hasn't changed any though. I know edema is a sign that something isn't right, so.... any ideas?
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Often edema is worsened by excess sodium and/or not enough potassium. You may want to eat some potassium-rich food, and go easy on the salt. I figure you're not using salt, but just in case, I'm mentioning it.
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thank ck!
recommendations on potassium sources? :)
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avocadoes and bananas, particularly bananas. Someone else may have a better suggestion. I know you're ZC, right?
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Fresh parsley, sage, watermelon rind, cucumbers and zuchini may help.
(http://www.thebodyartshop.com/images/unripejaguafruit.jpg)
This is a fruit that helps the kidneys. You retaining water sounds like kidney stress to me.
Immerse in water, better yet walk or exercise in it, and even better yet make it salt water.
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avocadoes and bananas, particularly bananas. Someone else may have a better suggestion. I know you're ZC, right?
I still had potassium deficiency when I ate lots of potassium-rich plant foods like bananas and avocadoes. My potassium deficiency reduced dramatically when I eliminated all plants and started eating only meat, animal fat (mostly suet/tallow), organs, eggs, and seafood.
I got mild edema when I ate too much mead or raw honey.
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I think freshly squeezed lemon juice is one of the highest sources of potassium. A little added to water may help. As ck mentioned, maybe cut down on the salt too (if you're using it at all). Sodium and Potassium work together transferring H2O into and out of the cell in a similar way that Calcium and Magnesium work together.
If you're already zc and eating little but meat and fat then it may just be that your salt intake needs to be reduced.
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I also drink mineral water for a little added potassium and magnesium.
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thanks all!
Seems after those two days I'm completely normal, I don't know what happened?? I do now recall also getting leg (calf) cramps in the middle of the night... is that related?
I'm pretty much zc because that's what works right now... if I eat those potassium-rich fruits, veg, or even lemon juice my colon would spasm.
mineral water could be an option though
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It did take some time for the all-raw meat/fat diet to resolve my potassium and zinc deficiencies--I would say about 3-4 weeks, and mild potassium deficiency cramps can return if I go too long between meals, so my body is still mildly deficient and needs regular replenishment from raw meat. The zinc is more fully resolved and I can go longer between meals without zinc deficiency symptoms, which is not surprising given that meat contains more zinc than potassium.
I generally drink nonsparkling mineral water, because carbonation gives me gas and reflux if I drink too much of it. Carbonation is also an acid (carbonic acid), so my guess is that may also contribute to the reflux discomfort.
If I get a cramp, I find that eating raw meat quickly resolves it. Potassium supplements work even faster (I also chewed them to speed up the absorption--warning: they're salty tasting), but I know they're frowned upon here and I also try to avoid them where possible. Bananas never worked for me, interestingly.
Magnesium deficiency is another common cause of muscle cramps.
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thanks Phil!
I will see how things go re edema/leg cramps. If problems continue I'll have to consider if there is a deficiency and how I"ll correct it.
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If I get a cramp, I find that eating raw meat quickly resolves it. Potassium supplements work even faster (I also chewed them to speed up the absorption--warning: they're salty tasting), but I know they're frowned upon here and I also try to avoid them where possible. Bananas never worked for me, interestingly.
Bananas never helped me with anything either. Raw meat resolves pain for me, not sure about cramps. It resolves what I can only describe as nitrogen bubble type pains. It resolves them fast. Also, I think it is true, that some edemas can be from protein deficiency, and raw meat delivers the best protein to me and it already comes with all the right forms of the right combination of nutrients to assist it helping me. I was a little swollen for a couple of years, and when I started eating (R)AF it resolved in a couple of weeks, but occasionally it happens again now (when I go off diet).
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I've suffered with cramps and edema in the past.
Magnesium does nothing nor does eating banana's. I'm very skeptical of mineral imbalance causing cramps I believe there's something else going on with the muscles. A study was done where electrolyte levels were measured on marathon runners who were cramping and those who are not. There was no difference.
The edema/cramps are related to some sort of body resetting or transition whether it's weight loss, a switch of glycogen to fat burning or a change in the way the body works as your body is becoming more sedentary.
I can easily bring on cramping with sugar. My whole body starts to cramp and I recently have drunk beer and my abdominal muscles and legs cramp real bad. Luckily lasts for a couple of minutes.
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as your body is becoming more sedentary
hey!! i just meant at work I was sedentary on those two days... I'm not a sedentary person at all :D
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Edema / Cramps,
I would suspect dehydration.
I would suspect salt intake (I am against salt, use sparingly, blood is better)
I would suspect kidneys need cleansing or rest, if the zero carber is a cooked meat eater - then cooked meat is the culprit, but in your case, maybe a 1 day water fast will allow the kidneys to rest.
Maybe a good massage using ghee (clarified butter) or virgin coconut oil will do you good as well for circulation.
If it persists I would try other things in my arsenal though they are non paleo stuff.
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Maybe a good massage using ghee (clarified butter) or virgin coconut oil will do you good as well for circulation.
It is recommended against massaging the part affected by the edema (the ankles in this case), while they are swollen. On a day they are swollen, get enough rest that night and when in bed put pillow or wedge under legs to elevate them. If you work by night and sleep by day, just prop your legs up whatever time it is you're in bed, I don't think whether it's light or dark out matters.
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I have found that sodium, even himalayan sea salt, in anything more than a pinch causes cramping in my calf and foot. Not sure why, but I can almost control all cramping by reducing or eliminating salt, or any kind. You might try an experiment to see if salt affects you too.
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well that firsttimeforme occurrence of ankle edema was a weird two-day thing. my only explanation is that i was sitting all day in an uncomfortable chair and maybe contorted myself into some position that affected my circulation??
every couple of nights or so I do get cramps in my legs though, not sure what that is about yet.
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every couple of nights or so I do get cramps in my legs though, not sure what that is about yet.
I get it when low in body salts, especially Magnesium.
I fix it using an electrolyte additive in water or a bit more salt on my food.
Do you salt your food at all Ionna? It might be worth using a little bit if you don't to see if they go away. :)
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I have used for some time now, ionic mineral solution which is high in magnesium concentrated from the great salt lake ut. I like it for it has all the trace mins too.
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I have used for some time now, ionic mineral solution which is high in magnesium concentrated from the great salt lake ut. I like it for it has all the trace mins too.
Van, do you have a link or directions on how to make it?
I use Body-Bio E-Lyte solution but it's highest in potassium. Magnesium is better than in sea salt but it'd be nice to have an alternative that has higher levels. :)
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I hardly ever consume salt... I just forget.
Magnesium could very well be, would explain some things.
I have a pink himalayan salt (pink) and (i think) celtic salt (grey) too... does it matter? Hope the edema doesn't return, lol, although I've never noticed any water retention with salt consumption before so that shouldn't be.
Van, I'm interested to know about your 'recipe' too.
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Yes, magnesium deficiency is generally my 2nd guess for muscle cramps after potassium deficiency; dehydration is my 3rd guess; calcium def. #4. My approach was to test each, one at a time, to find the main culprit, which turned out to be potassium for me--and it initially required more than the standard 99 mg dose to resolve it for me. The usual foods recommended for potassium, such as bananas, didn't work for me, so I was forced to continue to take supplements until I eventually discovered that eating lots raw red meat every day keeps it at bay. If I go a single day without raw red meat, however, mild cramps start to return. I don't have a good, consistent source at a reasonable price of wild oysters, salmon, and other seafood, but that's another option.
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You can go to www.traceminerals.com and or call 1-801-731-6051 where they can tell you where you can buy, either on line or in a store near you. I get both the eight ounce white plastic bottle and the individual four ounce glass eye drop bottles with more concentrated particular minerals, such as zinc, and magnesium. But to give you an example; one half teaspoon, or 40 drops, gives 250 mg of magnesium while only adding 6 mg of sodium. And they are in an ionic form. Hope this helps. I actually like the way it tastes in my well water. I add about thirty drops to a quart of water and take it throughout the day. All at once can give loose stools, which is typical of Magnesium.
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Is it possible that mineral imbalance is a load of rubbish? Where do we know magnesium cures cramps? or potassium?
We know that if your blood pH goes anywhere outside of 7.2 -7.6 you die. I think the same could be true for minerals, the slightest deviation and your are seriously ill not just a few cramps.
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Is it possible that mineral imbalance is a load of rubbish? Where do we know magnesium cures cramps? or potassium?
We know that if your blood pH goes anywhere outside of 7.2 -7.6 you die. I think the same could be true for minerals, the slightest deviation and your are seriously ill not just a few cramps.
No, it's not rubbish. Armies traditionally gave salt pills to those in sweaty climates, and I've needed to add a little dried seawater on sweaty work days to avoid heart problems. Never bothered with Mg or K, as I know that sweat tastes more of salt than anything else.
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I've noticed my sweat isn't as salty on this diet. The sweat used to irritate my skin back in the day. Mg and K are salts but you mean Na and Cl. Sweat contains all these.
So what happens if these soldiers don't get their sweat pills?
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Never bothered with Mg or K, as I know that sweat tastes more of salt than anything else.
Celery traditionally is known to be high in sodium. It is also high in potassium, but no one pays attention to its potassium. It is so high in potassium, that there are people who eat celery at night when they can't sleep, it relaxes them. I know people who drink celery juice in place of high blood pressure medication they used to take, while many others just cut out celery and all other sodium containing foods without question.
Have you ever tried pure potassium solution supplement? I did. It tastes very salt-like.
I also know people who use a commercial potassium chloride shaker on their food at the dinner table. Its crystals also taste salty.
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I've noticed my sweat isn't as salty on this diet. The sweat used to irritate my skin back in the day. Mg and K are salts but you mean Na and Cl. Sweat contains all these.
So what happens if these soldiers don't get their sweat pills?
"The symptoms of salt deficiency are weariness, lassitude, dizziness, heat cramps and sometimes prostration."
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oh, duh!!!! I should have figured this out sooner... the cramps are probably the result of an iron deficiency. I tend to be on the anemic side and judging by my fatigue and heart beat and skin color, I should have put the pieces together sooner. I took a supplement (I don't care to hear negative criticisms, I'm not waiting until I pass out!, but if you have a constructive idea for when my iron drops too low I'm all for it). The muscle cramps have stopped, and all other symptoms of the deficiency subsided. Interestingly, I had been with a larger appetite than usual for my meat, which also has returned to normal.
I don't like the idea of supplements, but... they work, or at least the iron one that I used has helped immensely. I hope my iron level issues correct themselves soon with this diet, I expect they will.
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oh, duh!!!! I should have figured this out sooner... the cramps are probably the result of an iron deficiency. I tend to be on the anemic side and judging by my fatigue and heart beat and skin color, I should have put the pieces together sooner. I took a supplement (I don't care to hear negative criticisms, I'm not waiting until I pass out!, but if you have a constructive idea for when my iron drops too low I'm all for it). The muscle cramps have stopped, and all other symptoms of the deficiency subsided. Interestingly, I had been with a larger appetite than usual for my meat, which also has returned to normal.
I don't like the idea of supplements, but... they work, or at least the iron one that I used has helped immensely. I hope my iron level issues correct themselves soon with this diet, I expect they will.
Maybe a muscle beef and fat only diet, even raw and grass fed, can lead to deficiency on the long run. Our ancestors ate a varied diet made of different wild food, not just meat from bred animals!
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oh, duh!!!! I should have figured this out sooner... the cramps are probably the result of an iron deficiency. I tend to be on the anemic side and judging by my fatigue and heart beat and skin color, I should have put the pieces together sooner. I took a supplement (I don't care to hear negative criticisms, I'm not waiting until I pass out!, but if you have a constructive idea for when my iron drops too low I'm all for it). The muscle cramps have stopped, and all other symptoms of the deficiency subsided. Interestingly, I had been with a larger appetite than usual for my meat, which also has returned to normal.
I don't like the idea of supplements, but... they work, or at least the iron one that I used has helped immensely. I hope my iron level issues correct themselves soon with this diet, I expect they will.
These foods are listed as iron-rich at http://www.healthcastle.com/iron.shtml and http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/top-10-iron-rich-foods:
Excellent Sources
# Clams
# Pork Liver
# Oysters
# Chicken Liver
# Mussels
# Beef Liver
# red meat
# egg yolks
# dark, leafy greens
etc.
I hear you on supplements. I've tried organs, shellfish and other seafood, and bone meal to get more minerals for dental and bone health and for potassium, but it didn't get rid of my potassium deficiency symptoms completely and brought back some Magnesium deficiency symptoms, probably because the calcium tends to be equal or higher than the Mg in those food sources, whereas I tend toward Mg deficiency. So for now I'm taking Mg again, but like you I'm hoping to eventually be able to do it all with just foods and a "foodlement" or two.
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thanks carnivore and paleophil!
I was just looking online today and saw (if it's true?) that oysters have 13.5 mg iron per 3oz, which is almost double what was listed for the same weight of beef liver and about 4x beef. I didn't know they were so high. I've never had oysters before... anyone here eat them? and how? I've never been a fan of seafood, so there is a lot of (shell fish especially) that I've never had before. A supplement is 20mg.. I think... I'd rather give oysters a try. clams were on the list too, I didn't know that either.
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Yes, nutritiondata does indicate that oysters are rich in iron and I started eating oysters, though I think I'm going to wash away the saltwater next time (I'm guessing there might be nutrients in it though, because people say to drink it--so maybe I'll dilute it instead) because I don't care for the taste of salt, and I have eaten other shellfish and seafood. Some folks add lemon, but I don't buy lemons or limes and I'm currently eating only carnivorous foods (with occasional cheating), so I can't be bothered with that.
My shellfish come pre-scrubbed, but I dip them into a container of water in the plastic netting they come in to wash out the sand and stuff inside them. I followed GoodSamaritan's method of how to open oysters by chopping off an edge, though they shattered a bit and had to clean the shell fragments out of the oysters.
Keep in mind, however, that people tend to eat smaller quantities of shellfish at a sitting than beef, and beef is cheaper (and I believe the price/lb of shellfish includes the shell that you don't eat--so they're even more expensive than they seem).
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... I've never been a fan of seafood, ...
This is a good reason to have some deficiencies as seafood is one the most nutrient dense food. Oysters, crabs, mussels, clams, etc. are very beneficial when eaten raw. I have a tendency toward cramps, and some oysters are generally enough to make them disappeared (among other benefits).
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thanks carnivore and paleophil!
I was just looking online today and saw (if it's true?) that oysters have 13.5 mg iron per 3oz, which is almost double what was listed for the same weight of beef liver and about 4x beef. I didn't know they were so high. I've never had oysters before... anyone here eat them? and how? I've never been a fan of seafood, so there is a lot of (shell fish especially) that I've never had before. A supplement is 20mg.. I think... I'd rather give oysters a try. clams were on the list too, I didn't know that either.
thanks carnivore and paleophil!
I was just looking online today and saw (if it's true?) that oysters have 13.5 mg iron per 3oz, which is almost double what was listed for the same weight of beef liver and about 4x beef. I didn't know they were so high. I've never had oysters before... anyone here eat them? and how? I've never been a fan of seafood, so there is a lot of (shell fish especially) that I've never had before. A supplement is 20mg.. I think... I'd rather give oysters a try. clams were on the list too, I didn't know that either.
I eat 20 extra-large wildcaught oysters every fortnight. I use an oyster-knife to pry open the top shell, just sticking it as hard as I can into a relevant wedge and twisting the knife. Best to use a towel as well, to avoid cuts(or use GS's method).
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awesome!
i'm going to try some oysters as soon as i find a good source for them... hopefully over the weekend.
do you chew them or swallow them whole?
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awesome!
i'm going to try some oysters as soon as i find a good source for them... hopefully over the weekend.
do you chew them or swallow them whole?
I swallow them whole, maybe chew it once if at all.