Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on January 18, 2010, 11:26:51 am
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I didn't realize how much of oyster habitat had been destroyed until I heard a radio report tonight that said that 85% of the world's oyster beds have been destroyed. There are efforts to restore habitat, but I wonder if it's ethical to eat wild oysters at this point?
Man-Made Reef May Help Stem Oysters' Decline
By Amy Quinton on Wednesday, July 1, 2009.
http://www.nhpr.org/node/25835
"A new report finds that New Hampshire’s Great Bay Estuary has lost more than 90 percent of its oyster reefs over the last 15 years.
Pollution, disease, and over-harvesting have all played a part."
Aquaculture FAQ - Why are oysters considered a keystone species?
Page Updated on November 27, 2009
http://www.deseagrant.org/outreach/aquaculture-faq-why-are-oysters-considered-keystone-species
"Filter-feeding bivalve molluscs are considered to be a "keystone species" because of the important ecological services they provide to maintain or improve water quality and clarity, and cycle nutrients between the water column and bottom dwelling species. The diversity and abundance of molluscan shellfish populations are often cited as indicators of the environmental quality and overall health of coastal ecosystems."
Mussels And Oysters Endangered By The Acidification Of The Oceans
By News Staff | March 16th 2007 02:00 AM
Should the Eastern Oyster be on the Endangered Species List? It's Worth Considering
Monday, July 25, 2005
http://thissphere.blogspot.com/2005/07/should-eastern-oyster-be-on-endangered.html
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I'd figure to avoid eating them. They used to be rampant where I live, yet I don't think I've seen a single wild one. Our river is utterly destroyed for that reason as well. It's filthy for there's no filtration. Most of my family avoids fish and crustaceans (except for crayfish) for the same reason. (My step-sister refuses to give it up, as she loves it.)
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The solution is to reduce ocean pollution. Also, farmed seafood is not a good alternative as it helps harm wild fish via interbreeding and other factors. The way I see it, as long as it's only rawpalaeos like us who eat raw wild oysters then we're not going to do much harm to the environment. The rest of mankind should bloody well be forced to eat hydroponically-created foods/artificially manufactured meats etc.
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The solution is to reduce ocean pollution. Also, farmed seafood is not a good alternative as it helps harm wild fish via interbreeding and other factors. The way I see it, as long as it's only rawpalaeos like us who eat raw wild oysters then we're not going to do much harm to the environment. ...
OK, thanks. So that would apply to other wild seafood and animals too, right? I went easy on wild salmon this summer, but maybe the news reports about wild salmon declines were sensationalized and you're right that RPDers are still too few to have much impact at this time--I was thinking more in terms of trying to be somewhat sensitive to wild species numbers from an ethical standpoint. Of course, the rising cost of wild salmon was another factor for me.
The rest of mankind should bloody well be forced to eat hydroponically-created foods/artificially manufactured meats etc.
Why?
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OK, thanks. So that would apply to other wild seafood and animals too, right? I went easy on wild salmon this summer, but maybe the news reports about wild salmon declines were sensationalized and you're right that RPDers are still too few to have much impact at this time--I was thinking more in terms of trying to be somewhat sensitive to wild species numbers from an ethical standpoint. Of course, the rising cost of wild salmon was another factor for me.
Of course, not everyone eats farmed fish. A lot of people I know eat wild seafood, but none are raw foodists. I figured to eat only the more populous seafoods that aren't having issue with endangerment and, if you want oysters or salmon, to eat them as treats.
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OK, thanks. So that would apply to other wild seafood and animals too, right? I went easy on wild salmon this summer, but maybe the news reports about wild salmon declines were sensationalized and you're right that RPDers are still too few to have much impact at this time--I was thinking more in terms of trying to be somewhat sensitive to wild species numbers from an ethical standpoint. Of course, the rising cost of wild salmon was another factor for me.
The simple fact is that farmed fish are often fed on dead wildcaught fish. If not, they're fed on grains. I think only farmed bivalves are OK as they just filter the nutrients from the water.
Why?
People who don't care about the issue of raw/cooked or the quality of the food should be denied the opprtunity to eat quality foods, even if they get the chance. That way , with most of humanity on grian etc. diets, wild animals/sealife etc. will be much less affected. What I'm impressed by are scientists' efforts to artificially create meat from basic cells - if they got this mass-production of meat etc. going, the wildlife and environment would benefit enormously, and we wouldn't have to worry about scarcity of quality raw foods.
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as long as it's only rawpalaeos like us who eat raw wild oysters then we're not going to do much harm to the environment.
Except that it isn't just rawpaleos who eat raw oysters.
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Isnt it easy to grow your own fish, oysters etc., with raw kelp & sea minerals?
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Interestingly I am rather certain no one in the world cares what we think they should be allowed to eat.
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The simple fact is that farmed fish are often fed on dead wildcaught fish. If not, they're fed on grains. I think only farmed bivalves are OK as they just filter the nutrients from the water.
Thanks, I'll look into farmed shellfish.
People who don't care about the issue of raw/cooked or the quality of the food should be denied the opprtunity to eat quality foods, even if they get the chance.
How would you do that?
That way , with most of humanity on grian etc. diets, wild animals/sealife etc. will be much less affected. What I'm impressed by are scientists' efforts to artificially create meat from basic cells - if they got this mass-production of meat etc. going, the wildlife and environment would benefit enormously, and we wouldn't have to worry about scarcity of quality raw foods.
I hope lots of other people eat that so I can still have my real meat. :D
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quote author=PaleoPhil link=topic=2063.msg25416#msg25416 date=1263950606]
How would you do that?
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Well, it's already being done. The governments appear to be planning a reduction in meat-consumption re climate-change theories, plus banning butter etc, thinking of introducing new taxes/bans. I see a future in which most people end up taking the path of least resistance and eating only processed gunk, complying with the law(like those artificial food-pellets seen in the Buck Rogers TV series), while a tiny minority of RVAFers indulge in a small black-market involving real raw foods.
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Well, it's already being done. The governments appear to be planning a reduction in meat-consumption re climate-change theories, plus banning butter etc, thinking of introducing new taxes/bans. I see a future in which most people end up taking the path of least resistance and eating only processed gunk, complying with the law(like those artificial food-pellets seen in the Buck Rogers TV series), while a tiny minority of RVAFers indulge in a small black-market involving real raw foods.
Yeah, but I mean, how will you restrict the non-RVAFers from buying from the same black market? You said you would deny them our foods. How would you deny them?
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Yeah, but I mean, how will you restrict the non-RVAFers from buying from the same black market? You said you would deny them our foods. How would you deny them?
The point is that the majority of people are law-abiding so won't bother accessing the black market in this case.
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The point is that the majority of people are law-abiding so won't bother accessing the black market in this case.
So you would support making most of our Paleo foods illegal so many others won't eat them, and then you would break the law to get them for yourself? You realize that black market prices tend to be very expensive, right? Of course, eventual exorbitant prices for many of our foods may be unavoidable anyway, as I've mentioned in the past.
Quote from: TylerDurden on January 18, 2010, 03:34:39 AM
as long as it's only rawpalaeos like us who eat raw wild oysters then we're not going to do much harm to the environment.
Except that it isn't just rawpaleos who eat raw oysters.
Good point. I think that for now I'll compromise and just make oysters an occasional food.
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Wow! I just calculated how much the wild oysters in my market cost per pound after the shells are removed and it comes out to $77/lb. Too pricey for me to eat other than as a very rare treat anyway. I didn't realize just how expensive they really are.
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So you would support making most of our Paleo foods illegal so many others won't eat them, and then you would break the law to get them for yourself? You realize that black market prices tend to be very expensive, right? Of course, eventual exorbitant prices for many of our foods may be unavoidable anyway, as I've mentioned in the past..
Black market foods don't have to be expensive. For example, alcohol sold to Muslims in some Muslim countries may be technically illegal but it's not expensive(I believe they get the alcohol from Christians who are of course allowed to sell alcohol).
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Black market foods don't have to be expensive. For example, alcohol sold to Muslims in some Muslim countries may be technically illegal but it's not expensive(I believe they get the alcohol from Christians who are of course allowed to sell alcohol).
That's technically not a true black market, since Christians are legally allowed to sell it--you were originally talking about a total ban and didn't mention exceptions like Christians can still sell Paleo foods. Since most Muslims don't drink much alcohol, the demand is also low in Muslim countries, which helps keep prices down.
Whatever the prices of our foods, once illegal the prices will rise if the laws are enforced. Surely you recognize that? Focus on the big picture--the costs will go up significantly--and forget about picking nits.
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That's technically not a true black market, since Christians are legally allowed to sell it--you were originally talking about a total ban and didn't mention exceptions like Christians can still sell Paleo foods. Since most Muslims don't drink much alcohol, the demand is also low in Muslim countries, which helps keep prices down.
Whatever the prices of our foods, once illegal the prices will rise if the laws are enforced. Surely you recognize that? Focus on the big picture--the costs will go up significantly--and forget about picking nits.
Not necessarily. To give a perfect example, raw dairy is prohibited for sale in numerous US and Canadian states yet primal dieters buying raw dairy illegally don't mention any price-rise as a result.
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Well then we'll have to agree to disagree and I think you're in for quite a shock if any of your favorite foods are made illegal and the law is enforced.
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Who are these Primal dieters that don't mention price rise in USA? Grass fed raw dairy is sky high and I would bet my house it would be less expensive if it was legal in all 50 states and farmers were allowed to let the market decide what was best for them to produce and sell.
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Who are these Primal dieters that don't mention price rise in USA? Grass fed raw dairy is sky high and I would bet my house it would be less expensive if it was legal in all 50 states and farmers were allowed to let the market decide what was best for them to produce and sell.
I'm surprised at your claims. I mean PDers don't usually complain about price and raw dairy is their main food. Similiarly, 1 pint of raw grassfed dairy in the Uk costs a little over 1 pound sterling, that's dirt cheap.
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lol i get 4 pints for £2
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A ban on meat is coming soon, in both the u.k & the u.s, you aint seen nothing yet ...
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I'm surprised at your claims. I mean PDers don't usually complain about price and raw dairy is their main food. Similiarly, 1 pint of raw grassfed dairy in the Uk costs a little over 1 pound sterling, that's dirt cheap.
These aren't claims, they're facts. If you compare grass fed milk vs. something like grass fed suet calorie for calorie, dollar for dollar, it would be ridiculous. Milk is mostly water first of all, so even if they were the same price per lb suet would undercut it greatly. But also, milk is more expensive even by volume. 1/2 gallon of grass fed milk around here is something like $6. Suet is around $2/lb. Add that to the fact that the vast majority of USA residents have to buy their raw dairy illegally if they're lucky enough to have the option, and I think saying raw grass fed dairy is easier to get then raw grass fed fat is about in line with the ridiculous nature of many AV statements. Let me amend that with "in my opinion."
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Well,here in the UK I can only get raw grassfed, organic suet at c.5 pounds sterling a kilo. I can get raw grassfed dairy at 1 pound sterling and a bit over for 2 pints(I made a mistake re calculations, I realise the milk I got previously was larger, being 2 pints).
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Here in VT I was getting grassfed suet for 99 cents a pound, but the price varies and right now it's back up to $1.99/lb. With all the promoting of dairy that's been going on here and at other forums and blogs I decided to buy the best quality dairy fat that's available at my local healthfood market and see if I can handle it. If grassfed suet should ever disappear or get too expensive it would be good to have other options. The best available dairy fat was unsalted cultured butter made from pasteurized cream and culture. It was priced at $7.98/lb. -- about 4 times the current price of the grassfed suet. I assume raw would be even more expensive. There was also some pastured ghee at $17/lb., but that's too ridiculously high to even try.
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Here in VT I was getting grassfed suet for 99 cents a pound, but the price varies and right now it's back up to $1.99/lb. With all the promoting of dairy that's been going on here and at other forums and blogs I decided to buy the best quality dairy fat that's available at my local healthfood market and see if I can handle it. If grassfed suet should ever disappear or get too expensive it would be good to have other options. The best available dairy fat was unsalted cultured butter made from pasteurized cream and culture. It was priced at $7.98/lb. -- about 4 times the current price of the grassfed suet. I assume raw would be even more expensive. There was also some pastured ghee at $17/lb., but that's too ridiculously high to even try.
lol ghee for $17, we get a whole liter for about £5, if not cheaper
Look in an indian or asian store, ghee should be even cheaper in the u.s, as its cheap to make
ghee is most definitely not worth trying, the only thing going for it is the high temperature, its filled with chemicals & the fat soaks up the plastic & tin its stored in like crazy, its also heated to kingdom come
It does make a mean curry tho ...
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If you really want ghee, make it at home, its ridiculously easy to make
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ghee ..., the only thing going for it is the high temperature, its filled with chemicals & the fat soaks up the plastic & tin its stored in like crazy, its also heated to kingdom come
It does make a mean curry tho ...
What are you talking about? I never bought ghee, but I've seen it in stores many times and other places. I have only seen it there in glass jars. I've made it too. I didn't store it in tin nor plastic either.
Many people use ghee much in the way lard used to be used before the petro revolution, in ointments and balms to deliver herbal mixtures.
Ghee in my experience works better than vegetable oils, but raw grass grazed and other raw animal fats work in a superior manner, IMO. It depends on what you're looking for.
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Over here it comes in all containers
Not touching the stuff lol