Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: kurite on March 19, 2010, 11:38:10 am
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Okay so as far as I can tell high meat is healthier because aerobic bacteria are aloud to pre digest the meat for you so by the time you eat it, its very easily digested. My question is wouldn't exposing the meat to lots of oxygen make the fat oxidize? If that is so than wouldn't it make it somewhat unhealthy being that oxidized fat can be dangerous?
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Cooking oxidises fats much more quickly and to a greater extent, IMO. Plus, given the health-effects of high-meat by comparison to the very unhealthy cooked meats/foods, high-meat is still bioavailable and must have some way of negating any negative effects from such oxidisation(perhaps enzymes or the extra bacteria help in this regard).
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I don't think oxidation levels are in the realm of opinion. That would be an interesting thing to look at with food chemistry.
High meat, however, has pretty much always been used as a supplement rather than a primary food source. I don't know of anyone, except maybe AV (who eats lots of dairy and other stuff anyway) who eats more high meat than fresh. No one is claiming (again aside from AV) that high meat is healthier than fresh for your general food intake, rather that occasionally eating high meat helps with digestion and seems to give mood boosting effects. In that context the oxidation would not be much of a issue, since from what I've read the benefits of high meat can be gotten by eating quite a small amount relative to how much people normally eat in a day.
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High meat, however, has pretty much always been used as a supplement rather than a primary food source. I don't know of anyone, except maybe AV (who eats lots of dairy and other stuff anyway) who eats more high meat than fresh. No one is claiming (again aside from AV) that high meat is healthier than fresh for your general food intake, rather that occasionally eating high meat helps with digestion and seems to give mood boosting effects. In that context the oxidation would not be much of a issue, since from what I've read the benefits of high meat can be gotten by eating quite a small amount relative to how much people normally eat in a day.
I believe we've got a number of members here on our forum who eat most/all of their meat at least aged but usually truly high.
I would claim high meat is healthier than fresh. This is purely due to the ease of digestion though. If someone's digestion is working as well as it should there shouldn't be a noticeable difference.
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When aging meat, it's only the muscle/protein part that rots, not fat, right?
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From my experience, fat gets moldy and meat just gets a sludge of bacteria.
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As long as you don't expose the meat to light or really intense heat(130+ F) the fat will not oxidize for the most part due to the fact that most of it is saturated.
High meat is definitely better imo. the bacteria break down a lot of the proteins, fatty acids and sugars. They also help with digestion due to there enzymatical activity. The bacteria are also a safeguard against harmful strains that could hurt you
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The Eskimos eat pufa-rich high-meat in the form of raw fish and raw whale/seal, yet seem to thrive on it. I'm not a fan of anti-PUFA theories, myself, as, while the scientific claims look great on the surface, in the real world they tend to come apart due to opposed anecdotal reports from RPDers.
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Yeah, Aajonus usually keeps his "high meat" in airlock glass containers and leaves them in the fridge, or cool dark place. I'd assume that would protect it from any undesirable effects.
You can see this on the Ripley's blieve it or not video. Though he opens the jar every 3-4 days cause he says the oxygen "keeps the bateria moving" (...wat?, lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIrFhfyrmS4
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By exposing the bacteria and meat to oxygen he is hardly preventing oxidisation of the high meat.
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By exposing the bacteria and meat to oxygen he is hardly preventing oxidisation of the high meat.
Thats what my thought of it is. Don't you have to expose it to air every 4-5 days???
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Doesn't botulism occur if the bacterias don't get air?
I had meat that I left open for 3 months, and then I had the exact meat that I left for 3 months in an air tight vacuum sealed bag and in the end they smelled completely different.
The meat with air smelt sort like cheese, which was slightly appetizing whilst the airtight one smelt just horrible and I knew I'd get sick if I'd eat it.
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My friend who grew up in Tibet ate high meat every day. Everything was high meat. It was somewhat dry and sported different colours like blue.
I may increase to eating it daily and eating more.
I did notice a few things which I am certain are related to the HM;
1. one day after I had eaten it 3 times in four days I had a weird experience where my vision started to cloud over. This lasted for about an hour or two. Almost as if I was going to pass out. I felt a bit giddy. This passed and I think I had a piece of cheese afterwords. Never happened again. I wasn't sure if it was related to the sungazing that I do but I doubt it was.
2. I felt a tiny bit high after the first time I tried it.
3. I feel exactly as AV says in that I feel happier, more settled and more solid or grounded
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My friend who grew up in Tibet ate high meat every day. Everything was high meat. It was somewhat dry and sported different colours like blue.
I may increase to eating it daily and eating more.
I did notice a few things which I am certain are related to the HM;
1. one day after I had eaten it 3 times in four days I had a weird experience where my vision started to cloud over. This lasted for about an hour or two. Almost as if I was going to pass out. I felt a bit giddy. This passed and I think I had a piece of cheese afterwords. Never happened again. I wasn't sure if it was related to the sungazing that I do but I doubt it was.
2. I felt a tiny bit high after the first time I tried it.
3. I feel exactly as AV says in that I feel happier, more settled and more solid or grounded
Very interesting. Does your friend eat a paleo type diet to?
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is it only the surface of the meat that gets high or the interior too?
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Once I took a glass of chicken livers with me on a trip. The busride was long and it was hot inside, so when I was going to eat the meat, it had turned green. I ate it anyway. Afterwards I felt kind of dizzy and more or less sleepy for a couple of hours. It didn't make me want to throw up though.
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Thats what my thought of it is. Don't you have to expose it to air every 4-5 days???
I think AV recommended airing it at least once every 1 to 4 days.
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I do not have a refrigerator so i pretty much eat my meat 'high' where i put it on hooks and hang it up in my tent..
It just gets tastier and tastier as the days go on.. when its nearly gone i find we stash away bits of high meat to eat with our fresh to kind of give the fresh a kick start and because fresh is so bland,
Once you get used to it (like eating meat to begin with ) you will prefer your meat aged.
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my high-meat has finally got white mold after 6 weeks. Not that it was roses taste-wise last week, but the mold taste now is pretty overwhelming. I tend to air it every few days, but sometimes forget. theres only a few small pieces left anyway on that batch, and I have another one ~ one mo. toss?
also I have an egg that I had cracked and is now really old. it doesn't appear to be leaking any more fluid, so I'm kinda curious to open it up and see what it looks like, but I have a feeling I won't be able to bring myself to eat it. Has anyone done this?
also, do people use anything in particular to clean the jars afterwards?
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I do not have a refrigerator so i pretty much eat my meat 'high' where i put it on hooks and hang it up in my tent..
It just gets tastier and tastier as the days go on.. when its nearly gone i find we stash away bits of high meat to eat with our fresh to kind of give the fresh a kick start and because fresh is so bland,
Once you get used to it (like eating meat to begin with ) you will prefer your meat aged.
Neone - How long do you usually leave meat hanging by the time you finish eating it? Is it protected from flies, insects, etc?
PaleoPhil - Are you still leaving your meat at room temp until you eat it? Hanging it? or where/how to dry the meat?
What's everybody else up to? is your meat at room temp?.. in fridge? and how do you store it?.. in a glass jar, on wire rack, hanging?
Thanks!
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also, do people use anything in particular to clean the jars afterwards?
The very first batches I didn't think ahead and used jars with a throat too small for me to fit my hand in. The next few I used soap and water with lots of water flushes after the soap. The final few jars I just added more meat and let the residue in the jar kick-start the whole process.
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thanks, yeah I'm using the small 'ball' jars. I can use a little brush I guess. I'm hesitant to just reuse the jar because of the mold.
so any thoughts on white mold ont he meat itself? I'm on air-day and usually chow down.
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Do you guys know if exposing meat to the sun would be better or worse than the high meat you make in jars in the fridge? Seems like it would be a much faster and easier, though smellier way to get it done.
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I have been wondering which bacteria are responsible for the quality of high meat. There are a number of aerobic bacteria that feed on raw meat, but some stand out for their contributions to certain characteristics of meat decay. For example:
Pseudomonas and Brochothrix thermosphacta predominantly contribute to the odor that spoil meat gives off as result of their metabolism. The foul odor comes from compounds such as ammonia, amines, and hydrogen sulfide from the break proteins. B. thermosphacta aerobic metabolism of glucose produces foul-smelling odor such as acetoin and acetic acid. [14] (http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Spoiled_meat_niche)
Also see:
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php?title=Spoiled_meat_niche&redirect=no#Pseudomonas
The specific species most often found in rotting meat is Pseudomonas fragi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas_fragi
Note that it is psychrophilic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrophilic
Such organisms can survive at extremely low temperatures, as low as -15 C. If P. Fragi is the bacterium most necessary for making high meat, then freezing the meat first should not effect the amount of living P. Fragi on the meat. The process of making high meat should not be hindered, unless the proteins are altered by the freezing.
Has anyone else looked into the bacteria that contribute to high meat?
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Do you guys know if exposing meat to the sun would be better or worse than the high meat you make in jars in the fridge? Seems like it would be a much faster and easier, though smellier way to get it done.
Just for you Donkey Kong, I will try leaving meat in the Arizona sun.
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Do you guys know if exposing meat to the sun would be better or worse than the high meat you make in jars in the fridge? Seems like it would be a much faster and easier, though smellier way to get it done.
It should be the same , only faster in appearance.I've only done it a few times, but it seemed to take only 1 week, no more, for me.
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put the jars with the meat in it outside in the sun? or just put the meat on a plate and put that outside in the sun?
because depending on where you live(how dry it is) if you put the meat on a plate or something out in the sun it would most likely dry rather then get high.
@actup do you live in phoenix area? because the butcher here I get my meat from says there's another guy who gets organ meats from them and eats raw.
@Ioanna I keep my high meat in glass jars and air them out twice a week, and the rest of my meat I keep open air(causes the outside to dry and both keeps & tastes better) - either fridge or room temp(fridge mainly if I'm thinking there might be roaches around, but most things taste better at room temp). I've been eating a lot of raw cheese recently and noticed that this one kind I got didn't taste good at fridge temp at all but tastes much much better at room temp.
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The Eskimos eat pufa-rich high-meat in the form of raw fish and raw whale/seal, yet seem to thrive on it. I'm not a fan of anti-PUFA theories, myself, as, while the scientific claims look great on the surface, in the real world they tend to come apart due to opposed anecdotal reports from RPDers.
Just a point here which is off topic and maybe not necessary, but to some people may be important.
Eskimo means "raw meat eater" in the Inuit language. In the past this was intended as an insult funnily enough, but on this forum it takes on a different meaning as all of us are Eskimos in that sense.
Just be aware of this sensitivity that people may have.
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@actup do you live in phoenix area? because the butcher here I get my meat from says there's another guy who gets organ meats from them and eats raw.
Yes! I'm in the valley.
If Paul or Phil told you that, then they are most likely speaking of me.
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haha cool ^_^
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@ magnetic, the problem is all these reaserchers looking this rotten meat -v as a danger for human consuption. The only thing they're interested how to use these good bacteria making drugs. I take a look high meat under a microscope, the color of these bacterias like rainbow.
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Just for you Donkey Kong, I will try leaving meat in the Arizona sun.
Did you do it yet? I put some chicken legs out but there's so many flies landing on it, I took it inside :/
I know I'm not supposed to worry about that but ugh, I wanna shield it from the flies ._. -only thing I could probably do is put a cloth over it but that wouldn't really be the same...
Maybe out in the wild I wouldn't care as much but these flies are probably feeding off & carrying all kinds of crap(I live in an apartment).
-but for the 15mins or so that it was out there it did just seem to start drying and bacteria need moisture to thrive so I doubt it would get high.
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Did you do it yet?
When I left it exposed it just dried. I am not a fan of jerky, so I just ate it.
The contained is progressing well, still not very high. It only gets direct sunlight for a couple hours.
Another thought...
This might work fine for incubation now, but the ground temperature will be able to cook the meat by next month if the jar is closed and the heat is not able to escape.
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@ magnetic, the problem is all these reaserchers looking this rotten meat -v as a danger for human consuption. The only thing they're interested how to use these good bacteria making drugs. I take a look high meat under a microscope, the color of these bacterias like rainbow.
Well my interest is in which bacteria are the ones responsible for the healing qualities of high meat. It really doesn't matter what the aim of the researchers is in this case, if what they are finding and identifying are aerobic bacteria common to meat that is exposed to an oxygenated "natural environment," then that is what I am looking for.
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I'm all for ingesting large amounts of friendly bacteria.
But how sure is everyone that nutrients like vitamin e and omega 3's don't go ranvid from air exposure and being at room temperature.
I've red vitamin e supplements go bad if exposed to air. Also that the omega's for example in flax seed oil need to be refrigerated.
My concern is that the antioxidants that are supposed to keep the omegas from going rancid go bad then the fats do too.