Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on March 27, 2010, 09:53:28 pm
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Has Aajonus tried a dairy free primal diet?
Any primal dieters try dairy free primal diet?
I assume primal dieters are those who are genetically adapted to consume milk.
Any difference without the dairy?
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Aajonus writes in his first book that there are people who should not consume dairy. So there must be primal dieters who don't take any. Actually that's what I'm trying to do.
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Aajonus writes in his first book that there are people who should not consume dairy. So there must be primal dieters who don't take any. Actually that's what I'm trying to do.
Up till now, I only ever heard of a small number of people who called themselves "Primal Dieters" and yet consumed no raw dairy. These were invariably situated in States/regions in which the sale of raw dairy was completely banned. Simply put, the Primal Diet has always been a diet involving massive amounts of raw dairy - this is, of course, because raw dairy is the easiest raw animal food for people to get used to , taste-wise, so gets higher numbers of people interested re going raw. That said, it seems that the number of RVAFers who do badly on raw dairy must be pretty high in numbers or Aajonus would never even bother acknowledging in his latest edition that it is possible to have an allergy towards raw dairy.
I wonder if AV is still spouting those absurd old-wives' tales in his latest edition, claiming that raw-dairy-allergies can be cured by mixing raw dairy with raw honey or fermenting it,or warming it to room-temperature etc.?
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I'm not going to weigh in on problems or not associated with raw dairy
but I really do not think dairy is recommend solely because its easier for people to get used to eating, over animal fats and organs and such.
other than cheese and perhaps milk (which I don't consume but have had in the past) which are enjoyable, I find butter and cream to be probably the least palatable RAF I consume. the formulas and such being particularly unappealing, if one considers them culinary and not functional.
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I'm not going to weigh in on problems or not associated with raw dairy
but I really do not think dairy is recommend solely because its easier for people to get used to eating, over animal fats and organs and such.
other than cheese and perhaps milk (which I don't consume but have had in the past) which are enjoyable, I find butter and cream to be probably the least palatable RAF I consume. the formulas and such being particularly unappealing, if one considers them culinary and not functional.
Sorry, but the unanimous opinion of RVAFers in general is that any type of raw dairy is easier to get used to re taste than any other kind of raw animal food. This is mainly to do with the addictive opioid-content within raw dairy. Many RVAFers find raw butter or raw cheese quite fine re taste, myself included. Unfortunately for me and many others, absolutely any type of raw dairy causes very unpleasant health-problems for me in the long run.
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what types of problems are u getting from raw dairy
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what types of problems are u getting from raw dairy
I know this q was for tyler but I always get a lot of mucus in my throat when I consume dairy products.
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what types of problems are u getting from raw dairy
I remember not eating dairy for about 1 1/2-2 years. I had some raw cows cheese (had salt). My knees were in severe pain that night. I am not jokeing. It's pretty strange. I don't have that problem with raw goat's cheese with salt.
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what types of problems are u getting from raw dairy
Difficult to list them all but if I start consuming raw dairy, I immediately get either frequent urination(or massive diarrhea with raw cheese), then all my pre-RPD problems start appearing such as increased anxiety, a feeling of being drugged all the time, skin-inflammation etc. If I were to continue for longer, my glands would get increasingly destroyed and I would get such delights as intolerance to heat. All those symptoms gradually disappeared as soon as I cut out all raw dairy from my diet, way back when.
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Tyler,
I can sympathize as I had a host of problems associated with pasteurized dairy. It took me a long while to figure it out, but I had lower back problems, extremely difficult urination at times, prostate enlargement, drowsiness, fatigue despite regular comfortable levels of yoga, walking, biking, etc and a generally decent diet.
When I decided to cold turkey on the pasteurized milk, the symptoms were gone the next day. After a month I tried some milk and it all came back virtually instantly. I had to give it up for a few years till I found out how to deal with the pasteurized milk with Ayurveda. Then I discovered raw milk and I have no probs since.
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Actually, my problems came from eating both raw and pasteurised dairy. Pasteurised dairy was marginally more harmful but even raw dairy was a disaster to my health.
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Actually, my problems came from eating both raw and pasteurised dairy. Pasteurised dairy was marginally more harmful but even raw dairy was a disaster to my health.
Dairy makes me sleep more, and I tried to drink a cup of milk cold once, and it gave me a stomach ache as soon as it hit my stomach. I'm glad you're staying away from it and recupe.
Aajonus writes in his first book that there are people who should not consume dairy. So there must be primal dieters who don't take any. Actually that's what I'm trying to do.
Good luck! Yeah, not everyone needs dairy. It helps a lot of peop0le though.
Has Aajonus tried a dairy free primal diet?
Any primal dieters try dairy free primal diet?
I assume primal dieters are those who are genetically adapted to consume milk.
Any difference without the dairy?
He wrote about healing from a horrible accident in his newsletter without dairy.
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I would like to try a no dairy, no fruit, raw meat diet but it seems too hard to get enough animal fats... grass fed beef doesn't have very much fat... do liver and heart(heart is more of a muscle then an organ though...) have more fat then muscle meat? does organic chicken have more fat?
Also, I want to eat raw fermented cheese because it's one of the only sources of k2(other is natto which I'm not sure where to find), which is very important for good health.
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? k2? Isn't that in meat?
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I would like to try a no dairy, no fruit, raw meat diet but it seems too hard to get enough animal fats... grass fed beef doesn't have very much fat... do liver and heart(heart is more of a muscle then an organ though...) have more fat then muscle meat? does organic chicken have more fat?
I suspect that the fat is cut off the meat and so it appears there is none. That is because people generally want no fat. You can get the fat by asking the butcher to give/sell you some. Normally it is very cheap or free and they have plenty.
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? k2? Isn't that in meat?
I don't think so. Some kinds of bacteria make it, like with fermented cheese or beans(natto). I heard it is made in your gut somewhere by bacteria but in order to get the benefits you would have to eat your feces. There is a video interview with dr mercola and a k2 specialist that I saw about it on mercola.com.
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I don't think so. Some kinds of bacteria make it, like with fermented cheese or beans(natto). I heard it is made in your gut somewhere by bacteria but in order to get the benefits you would have to eat your feces. There is a video interview with dr mercola and a k2 specialist that I saw about it on mercola.com.
Avoid natto and dairy like the plague. The fact that they have k2 in them means nothing as you get all the disadvantages of eating a non-raw or non-palaeo food along with them. K2 is in plentiful amounts on raw organ-meats like raw liver and in raw eggs. Raw muscle-meats contain less K2 in them, but still in sufficient amounts.
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Avoid natto and dairy like the plague. The fact that they have k2 in them means nothing as you get all the disadvantages of eating a non-raw or non-palaeo food along with them. K2 is in plentiful amounts on raw organ-meats like raw liver and in raw eggs. Raw muscle-meats contain less K2 in them, but still in sufficient amounts.
TD This anti-dairy theme of yours runs through your posts like a plague. I have no idea what the #s are but almost everyone I know eats raw dairy with no problems. The stuff is like manna from heaven to me and my GF. You apparently have issues and I appreciate that.
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TD This anti-dairy theme of yours runs through your posts like a plague. I have no idea what the #s are but almost everyone I know eats raw dairy with no problems. The stuff is like manna from heaven to me and my GF. You apparently have issues and I appreciate that.
The reason why an anti-raw-dairy theme runs through my posts is because raw dairy happens to be THE no-1 health-issue in RVAF diets. Time and again, I've come across countless numbers of people in RVAF diet forums who've had major issues with raw dairy - including some who've at first falsely assured me that they did fine on raw dairy only for them to grudgingly admit, years later, that I was right and that they did not do as well on it in the end as they had thought, over the long-term.
There are endless issues with raw dairy, ranging from magnesium-deficiency to hormone-related problems or actual allergies to raw dairy to bones/teeth being negatively affected by raw dairy and so on.
Of course, another quite rather understandable reason for my denouncing raw dairy is that deliberate lies have been made in the past by AV and other pro-raw-dairy-fanatics, such as the absurd notion that raw-dairy-allergies either don't exist or eventually go away or that something as simple as adding raw honey to raw dairy etc. will solve all dairy-related issues. This kind of misinformation is extremely deceitful as it means a lot of RVAF newbies have been fooled into giving raw dairy another few months or years of experimentation before realising that they had been suckered and their health ruined as a result.
Sure, those who stick to the Primal Diet are going most likely to be the minority of people who do well on raw dairy. But it means many others have completely quit going for RVAF diets like the primal diet , purely because they couldn't handle the raw dairy and wrongly blamed their misfortunes on the whole RVAF diet concept instead. Rawpaleoforum is a means to get rid of the misinformation and lies and show that there are many other, better ways than the Primal Diet to sort out one's health such as RZC or Raw, omnivorous palaeo.
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Of course, another quite rather understandable reason for my denouncing raw dairy is that deliberate lies have been made in the past by AV and other pro-raw-dairy-fanatics,
TD,
I appreciate once again that you are not a fan of raw dairy but you have definitely crossed over the line into telling:
"deliberate lies have been made in the past by TD and other anti-raw-dairy-fanatics, " ;)
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Ironically, despite the 'paleo' umbrella of the site, and the particular hard line stances, distortions, and dismissial of anything 'neoloithic' [particularly raw dairy] and supicious of 'detox', there remains a overwhelming 'faction' of 'minority' raw dairy consumers on this site. To my knowledge, and by a simple head count, I would even go as far as to say that the very few who on this site who have indeed done primal diet for an extensive period (in comparrison to the long term primals who probably would not be all that active or on this site), either are still more or less on it, respect parts of it, or even admit to through a variety of positive or negative experinces (availability etc...) seem to still consume some dairy products or do other primal practices (juices etc..)
as far as I am concerned, there has never been much of suggestion by AV or others that there is an adverison to dairy that cannot be overcome in time. At the same time one doesn't have to be a 'AV apologist' to realize that not all 'raw dairy' is created equally and this to my knowledge is also a huge part of actually 'following' the diet. IMO raw butter is basically an entire different species of food than milk or cheese, fermented or not. Cheese especially not being even considered a 'food' by aajonus himself. Any old diet of milk and cheese with an otherwise liberal assortment of meats and plant foods would not be consider to be a healthy diet.
These are my observations anyway.
In my expeirience, basically exluding something like raw butter from ones diet means ultimately making choices between a diet high in carbs and/or a diet high in protein, OR a diet that containsa majority of pure dense animal fats or rendered fats. I tend to include quite large quanitites of raw marrow in my diet, but its impossible for me make this work as my only fat nor would I want to. I will eat suet and regularly eat fattier meats/cuts like brisket but I'll choose raw never-frozen butter over suet any day of the week. I can't speak towards long term (5-10 year) deficiencies or other such things, but if it came down to it I would suplement for this issue rather than manufacture some more 'natural' diet that would be less healthful for me in terms of the present and the reversal of health issues of the past.
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Avoid natto and dairy like the plague. The fact that they have k2 in them means nothing as you get all the disadvantages of eating a non-raw or non-palaeo food along with them. K2 is in plentiful amounts on raw organ-meats like raw liver and in raw eggs. Raw muscle-meats contain less K2 in them, but still in sufficient amounts.
Natto is not paleo. It's not even a food, as soy is not. Natto was the worst thing in the world for my health, and it's not part of the primal diet either. Natto has isoflavones in it. Those are the parts that supposedly prevent breast cancer. Don't believe it. They cause it more likely. Read the FDA archive from Jefferson Arkansas from 1997 which was just before they declared soy is wonderful for you (98-99).
Of course avoid raw dairy. This discussion is about dairy free primal diet. Like Tyler says, try organ meats. The way he ferments them probably develops optimum amounts of K2 too. Maybe try the way aajonus ferments eggs too.
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Ironically, despite the 'paleo' umbrella of the site, and the particular hard line stances, distortions, and dismissial of anything 'neoloithic'
... At the same time one doesn't have to be a 'AV apologist' to realize that not all 'raw dairy' is created equally and this to my knowledge is also a huge part of actually 'following' the diet. IMO raw butter is basically an entire different species of food than milk or cheese, fermented or not. Cheese especially not being even considered a 'food' by aajonus himself. Any old diet of milk and cheese with an otherwise liberal assortment of meats and plant foods would not be consider to be a healthy diet.
These are my observations anyway.
In my expeirience, basically exluding something like raw butter from ones diet means ultimately making choices between a diet high in carbs and/or a diet high in protein, OR a diet that containsa majority of pure dense animal fats or rendered fats. I tend to include quite large quanitites of raw marrow in my diet, but its impossible for me make this work as my only fat nor would I want to.
Although aajonus has said that raw meat is mans natural diet, that is not what he prescribes, at least not most of the time. He usually prescribes other foods in addition to that. I don't think he calls his diet paleo. He has told me to call his diet by the name "primal diet" or pd. Didn't say paleo pd or paleo primal diet.
I know people who practice raw paleo diet here who say raw dairy is bad for them, but have only tried 145 degree sub-pasteurization organic A1 cheese. I know other people from here who tried paleo, didn't do well enough and switched to what they call primal diet, which for them is guzzling gallons of cold milk or whey till they puke.
I can't eat grain. If I eat a little nuts grain or potato, it makes me swollen and red. Then sometime if I eat it I get nervous or eat too much quantity of food in general. I have a problem with these non-primal/paleo foods. If someone cannot listen to aajonus and drink milk slow and hopefully fermented, or thinks any cheese labeled raw truly is raw, you can do the diet without the dairy.
As far as fat, there are plant fats too that many can eat on the primal diet in addition to the animal fats. Some use cold pressed refrigerated flaxseed oil, some stone pressed olive oil, some avocado and some organic fresh coconut cream. I can't do those. I need animal fats. I like them though and wish they had a good effect on me.
Raw fat is essential to me. I can eat a lot less food and utilize everything in it. Plant foods make me throw up too much. Mostly the only the only raw (live) primal food that has made me throw up is clams. I think it's the natural salt they contain. The list of plant foods is nearly endless. I love them in thought and sight, but they are no more food to me than the painting on the wall for a great part.
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TD,
I appreciate once again that you are not a fan of raw dairy but you have definitely crossed over the line into telling:
"deliberate lies have been made in the past by TD and other anti-raw-dairy-fanatics, " ;)
This is absolutely pathetic,as TD and others have merely expressed numerous instances in which raw dairy has been proven to be 100%% harmful.
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I do better with goat dairy than cows. Any insight on that?
But never consumed raw diary for extended periods of time (I probably never will either).
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I suspect goat is lighter and I would like to try it if I can find it.
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I suspect goat is lighter and I would like to try it if I can find it.
I found it at a local farmer's market
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I do better with goat dairy than cows. Any insight on that?
But never consumed raw diary for extended periods of time (I probably never will either).
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=38646
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Minor observation:- rawpaleoforum would never have gotten off the ground if there weren't a huge number of bad experiences with raw dairy in the RVAF diet community. Instead, this would have been a Primal Diet-forum.
I can see why many people are tempted by raw dairy, even those who do badly on it. Raw dairy is an easy source of raw fat, whereas raw fat is often cut off from meats well before being put on sale. Plus, raw dairy is highly addictive due to the opioids in it, and it's far more socially acceptable to drink raw milk than to eat raw meats. I happily concede that there is a minority of people who do fine on raw dairy. Since they are only a minority, though, it's only reasonable to warn everyone against raw dairy in advance, rather than the AV-inspired approach which is to claim that most people do well on raw dairy and that even those who do badly on raw dairy will eventually get used to it with the help of a few little tricks.
My past experiences on other RVAF diet forums were dismal. Aside from the nonsense claims by pro-raw-dairy activists such as claiming that adding raw honey to raw milk eased off allergies and the like, I also encountered horrible tales by long-term Primal Dieters who were so enthused with the myth of detox that they would go in for weeks-long raw-dairy-feasts in which their descriptions of so-called "detox", which needless to say always occurred in tandem with dairy-consumption, were clearly signs of allergy. Of course, raw dairy isn't the only problem on the Primal Diet, there's the frequent health-complaints re veggie-juice, the excessive amounts of raw foods that AV recommended in his books. It's a pity, as much of what AV says as regards other meatters re bacteria, high-meats etc. is right on the button.
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what are some of the complaints re veggie juice?
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what are some of the complaints re veggie juice?
A number of long-term Primal Dieters complained of getting nutritional deficiencies if they consumed lots of raw veggie-juice in the long-term. The explanation given for such was that juicing raw veg not only makes the nutrients in them more bioavailable to humans due to shredding of the cell-walls but it also makes the antinutrients in the veg more bioavailable as well, thus leading to nutritional deficiencies.
That said, issues with raw veggie-juice are, admittedly, much less than with raw dairy. The people who complained were generally those who consumed more than a glass of raw veggie-juice a day, on average. Most seem to do fine with occasional veggie-juice. I'm an exception as if I drink the stuff, it just goes out the other end, virtually unabsorbed, soon afterwards, though I had no other negative issues with the stuff.
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Aside from the nonsense claims by pro-raw-dairy activists such as claiming that adding raw honey to raw milk eased off allergies and the like, I also encountered horrible tales by long-term Primal Dieters who were so enthused with the myth of detox that they would go in for weeks-long raw-dairy-feasts in which their descriptions of so-called "detox", which needless to say always occurred in tandem with dairy-consumption, were clearly signs of allergy.
I've heard of The Milk Cure Diet like they did at the Mayo Clinic in MN. I don't think aajonus ever approved of a milk cure diet for anyone. What dairy feasts do you mean? Do you mean having a raw milk shake once or twice per day in addition to various snacks of many food groups every four to five hours around the clock and perhaps a tiny cube of cheese in some situations before each thing by mouth?
For me so far, cooking, heating, searing, pasteurizing, frying, smoking, dehydrating, freezing and marinating are what changes things physically to allergens. As long as I stay away from all those, I don't seem to get allergic reactions.
I don't like the idea of drinking milk as a baby from other than my Mother. There's an age and a place for everything. I love the taste of raw cow dairy cream though. It's not easy to get, so I usually go without that.
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Well, a number of PDers would consume half or more of their daily intake in the form of raw dairy, during those feasts/detoxes. All because they believed in AV's notion that raw dairy was some magical form of detoxing raw food. Utter rubbish.
If you're absolutely fine on raw dairy, then, naturally you have advantage re increased availability of food/fat in general. Although I love the taste, that's not an option for me.
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what types of problems are u getting from raw dairy
i know this was for someone else, but what the hey. raw dairy causes the typical mucus so badly that i develop a cough not unlike asthma. my knees hurt so badly (i never have any pain) i get fatigued, irritable and my face breaks out almost instantly. my hormones end up all out of whack. so not worth it. when i give it up, withdrawal sets in for at least a week of crying spells, inflammation, lethargy etc. i was so excited to hear that raw dairy was different from the conventional pasteurized crap. not for me it's not. the addiction i feel towards it is definitely a sign to stay away!
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Shannon,
Out of curiosity were you breast fed as an infant?
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no i was not breast fed, why do you ask?
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Just curious. Was wondering if there is some kind of correlation between those who were/were not and later reactions to dairy products.
I was and I do OK with raw dairy. Did terrible on pasteurized.
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Just curious. Was wondering if there is some kind of correlation between those who were/were not and later reactions to dairy products.
I was and I do OK with raw dairy. Did terrible on pasteurized.
that is interesting. maybe you should look into that some more, i'd be curious to find out.
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It just occurred to me actually. Would be interesting to check out though. Maybe some kind of unofficial poll on this site might be in order.
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By all means make a poll. I should add that I was breastfed for 7.5 months and subsequently fed on buffalo milk(which I think was raw as it came straight from Nepalese villagers/farmers or some such, not supermarkets). And I rate something like 8 or 9 out of 10 as regards dairy-allergies(10 points would be for those with galactosemia who get brain-damage and even die if they consume any sizeable amounts of dairy, however raw).
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My parents weren't breast-fed, and they couldn't stand dairy, thank goodness! So I didn't have to drink the pasteurized stuff at home. I was breast-fed 2 years and raw milk does good for me. Pasteurized stuffs my ears and makes my skin itch and my bo go off. My son whom I've written about reacted very bad to commercial dairy, probably 9.9 of ten. He can't touch the stuff. Raw dairy is saving his life. He was breast-fed two years.
I've thought of that too, raw-al. It seems breast fed people do better with the raw stuff. Some might say we retain lactase production longer due to our histories. Maybe there's something missing in the story telling. It would be good if we could test scientifically with control groups.
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I realize that there are issues and all women may not be able to breast feed. My GF wasn't able (long story) but she overcame the difficulty with her own intuition and knowledge. It is such a head start for children both from immune system kick start and bonding.
A number of years ago I was having a resume typed up by a friend of a friend who did free lance typing. This was before there was a computer in every home ;) The girl who was doing it for me was also doing some typing for an endocrinologist who was doing some research on breast feeding and was nominated for the Nobel prize for his work. It made me very conscious of this.
Both of our girls were breast fed. Not sure how long but I suspect 2 to 2.5 years. They like the rest of the world drank plenty of pasteurized milk.
As a youngster there was not a lot of cash in the house after dad died so we had dried skim milk. That wretched stuff was sickening to me. (ungrateful me) When I left the house I swore I would only drink the milk with the max fat in it, which I did and after probably 10 15 years of that I started having some pretty serious reactions. I have told the story somewhere on here before but I found raw eventually and that does the trick.
TD,
I heard that buffalo milk is extremely thick and full of fat.
Some guy in California is raising camels for milk.
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... she overcame the difficulty with her own intuition and knowledge. ...
I'm curious what she did.
... The girl who was doing it for me was also doing some typing for an endocrinologist who was doing some research on breast feeding and was nominated for the Nobel prize for his work. ...
I would love to know his name and see his work. I am interested in endocrinology.
Both of our girls were breast fed. Not sure how long but I suspect 2 to 2.5 years. They like the rest of the world drank plenty of pasteurized milk.
Not many East Asian countries nor many Eastern European countries nor African. People I've met from those countries, especially the European and African, many drank raw milk, goat, cow, other bovine, camel, etc.
As a youngster there was not a lot of cash in the house after dad died so we had dried skim milk. That wretched stuff was sickening to me.
We went through a time when I was a child where practically all we had to drink in the house was powdered skim. It smelled so bad, I just let myself dehydrate rather than drink that.
I heard that buffalo milk is extremely thick and full of fat.
Some guy in California is raising camels for milk.
Do you know of a list somewhere listing milks that are higher in fat naturally as per ratio to carb and protein than other milks?
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I'm curious what she did.
I would love to know his name and see his work. I am interested in endocrinology.
Not many East Asian countries nor many Eastern European countries nor African. People I've met from those countries, especially the European and African, many drank raw milk, goat, cow, other bovine, camel, etc.
We went through a time when I was a child where practically all we had to drink in the house was powdered skim. It smelled so bad, I just let myself dehydrate rather than drink that.
Do you know of a list somewhere listing milks that are higher in fat naturally as per ratio to carb and protein than other milks?
She read a book on feeding brain food to your child. Who's to say if it worked but he graduated from Yale in Psychiatry and from Harvard, top of the class in child and adolescent Psy.
The doctor's name is Chandra. He worked in St. John's Newfoundland when I knew him.
Regarding milk here is two pages from the best book in Ayurveda written 2000 years ago. Bear in mind that this was written in Sanskrit and then translated here by people in India whose English is not the same as ours, so when you read it pretend you are Ghandi and read it with the accent so it make more sense. ;)
I am trying to upload the scanned pages but they are 1.9 and 2.0 MB. Have to figure it out. Might take a bit of time.
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Here is the first page on milk: Also a link to an article on ojas by me ;D http://www.scribd.com/doc/2515703/Ojas
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Here is page 214;
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Interesting. I was not breast fed and I believe I've always had allergic like symptoms to dairy including lethargy, allergies, and lots of acne. When I cut the dairy, the acne went away. That was all pasteurized stuff I was talking about though. .. . I can't say for sure what long term symptoms I get with raw dairy because I've never drank it for long periods....but some of the similar symptoms I had with pasteurized are there, just not as intense or severe.
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" k2? Isn't that in meat?
It's concentrated in glands, sweetbreads, salivary glands are high in K2.