Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: raw-al on August 14, 2010, 10:15:19 pm
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Just wondering. I thought they were the same, but apparently not.
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Mostly the raw dairy. I haven't read up too much on the Primal Diet but from discussion here that seems to be the biggest point of contention.
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Rawpalaeo= raw meats, raw organ-meats, raw fish/shellfish, raw fruit, raw vegetables, raw honey(comb) - also, technically, raw nuts, raw mushrooms though the latter two are high in antinutrients so not generally suitable as staples. RZCers just focus on the raw animal foods.
Primal Diet:- Includes the above foods, but there is a rather big focus by most Primal Dieters on 5 or 6 main raw foods:- raw dairy, raw veggie-juice, raw honey, raw coconut cream, raw muscle-meats and raw nuts.
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Just wondering. I thought they were the same, but apparently not.
Aajonus made his Primal Diet by experimenting with foods and these are his opinions of foods that work today. Plus Aajonus is primarily a healer, so his point of view is how to cure people from diseases.
For myself raw dairy is just indigestible, I have to accept I am lactose intolerant.
I myself just stick to whatever works and what works for me in the past 2.5 years is aajonus primal diet minus dairy = raw paleo diet.
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Plus Paleo people didn't have juicers or blenders, so they would have eaten whole veggies instead of veggie juices. Aajonus' views appear to be a mixture of Natural Hygiene plus raw-Paleo-diet-type ideas based on the diets of a few modern hunter-gatherer peoples plus his experience and his observations of his clients' experiences.
Other foods that are also Paleo but not commonly eaten by modern Paleo-type dieters include seaweeds, insects, grubs, worms, lizards, etc. I've come across a couple mentions of hunter-gatherers drinking some milk from an animal they killed (if I recall correctly, I think they fermented it in the animal's bladder), but without domestication this would have been a minor part of the diet, rather than a staple food like with AV's version of a primal diet.
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Plus Paleo people didn't have juicers or blenders, so they would have eaten whole veggies instead of veggie juices.
You can chew vegetebles to extract the juice in your mouth and then spit out the mainly-indigestable pulp. Aajonus mentions in one of his books that he does this when travelling when he doesn't have access to a juicer.
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Yeah, but can you imagine a Stone Ager or recent hunter gatherer doing that and have you ever encountered such a dietary rule in any research you did on hunter gatherers? Is there any precedent for this other than the philosophy of Aajonus or other Natural Hygiene proponents?
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Other foods that are also Paleo but not commonly eaten by modern Paleo-type dieters include seaweeds, insects, grubs, worms, lizards, etc. I've come across a couple mentions of hunter-gatherers drinking some milk from an animal they killed (if I recall correctly, I think they fermented it in the animal's bladder)
Not in pd either, although not considered outside of the diet.
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When I met A.V. he never mentioned anything in regards to the quality of what the animals ate.That is to say,he never talked about grass-fed let alone grass-finished.Or even comparisons to grain fed vs grass fed.I only heard about this from this website, and I met A.V. back in c.'97-'98.
Also,he makes honey sound like a "miracle-medicine" IMO which makes certain people eat far too much of it.
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The way I understand the word 'Primal' as used in most cases seems to signify a diet and lifestyle that is suitable for our primal (i.e. initial) origins, not one that directly mimics any particular time period or food categories or processing methods, which can at any time include fermentation, cooking, or machines.
THE Primal Diet seems to be somewhat different in that the diet itself goes beyond even those categories into very specific protocols nested in the idea of curing specific disease. Often these are tailored to individuals who may have diets as divergent as no-meat to diets containing regular does of adrenals, testicles and eyeballs. Likely as mentioned, it consists for most dietarily of muscle-meats (from a wide range of animals), dairy-fat, and a largely fiber-less intake of supplemental plant foods.
Often using the word 'primal' would include dairy or other types of foods, as long as they fit this category ( you could even include foods like ACV or other fermented foods and or neolithic fruits into this category), although there are dairy free 'Primal Blueprint' dieters, as well as people that do AV protocols that don't otherwise do dairy.
Natural hygiene and THE primal diet of Aaajonus Vonderplanitz are the two most divergent philosophies I've come across in natural (raw specific) health.
the only way to organize principals from these ideas together would be around issues that many raw paleos would also agree.
that of commercial supplementation being useless->dangerous (although Aajonus believes in raw un-packaged food based supplementation (juice, coconut cream) and otherwise raw products like ACV etc...),
parasites (although many hygiene camps specifically ignore animal foods of course, they do not recommend any treatment or cleanses other than extensive fasting),
enzymes (including damage done by both freezing and cooking),
salt (both see it as deadly poison, except possibility in small theraputic doses by AV),
medical and alternative therapies such as cleanses as being either harmful direcly or as in removing 'symptoms' from poor diets (colonics, products, liver cleanses etc..)
and potentially water (although they can be as different as they are equal on that issue. NH recommends getting hydration from plants, AV from some plants but mostly raw unfrozen fats. NH seek out the most purified and distilled of water for 'cleansing', AV the most mineral dense waters that don't pull as much minerals from the body)
the main guiding principle behind hygiene or the universalized and depersonalized "The Science of Human Health" is that there are NO specific treatments, foods, or combinations of foods that act on the body in any beneficial way. That the body is self healing and self cleansing given the proper circumstance. That the only method we can exert on the body is to give proper food (as dictated by hygiene) and proper rest (fasting). NH is vehemently against any processing including fermentation and machines expect for rare food prep but not 'ideal' intake.
Aajonus' diet is pretty much the exact opposite in that each specific food or combination of foods is meant to either dissolve and carry out unnatural poisons in addition to being nourishing in that order. Therapies are praised and fasting is not recommended in any cases due to the idealization of nature in ignorance of modern physical facts. Since the diet is specified as having that as its ultimately goal, and going by the word 'primal' as signifying what is said above, and not in terms of trying to re-create any kind of natural circumstance. Therefore any direct questioning of tools or processes is null in these discussions unless one uses 0 modern processes in the obtaining or eating or storing of their food and for living and transport. (and finding that to be the most superior mode of healing).
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In further breakdown of the discrepancy of logic between what is 'primal' and what is of the paleolithic period, its possible to look to both civilization's development of tools and pasturing/agriculture in a different light. When it comes to 'juice', what is clear is that when we look to nature is that many animals that we know consume plant matter as a main course of their diet will wadge and expel fiber.
The mere lack of many human examples of people consuming large amounts of plant fluid through this method is a useless analogy for many reasons and hints to the same 'do as others to to get their results' mentality. One: all these people on record cook, ferment, or infuse much of their plant foods in forms of teas and broths. Two: these people - because of their inheritance and environment - require little of the benefits derived from such practices as admitted by AV himself, who says it takes as little as one generation (bearing one child after being on a healthy diet) for them to not 'require' vegetable juices per his specifications. As for the methods of processing these foods, It is inconclusive whether the addition of these 'plant medicines' are of any use or detriment to modern humans, but the method of extraction or 'requiring tools' is basically false. I wrote about that here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/breaking-down-cellulose/msg41899/#msg41899
In terms of dairy, I find it incredibly interesting that other than empirical experience (which is valid) the main ideological arguments against dairy is that one cannot obtain quantities of dairy without domesticating animals. That it took time to tame such ideal animals and breed them to passively obtain their dairy (even though buffalo have only been domesticated for a few hundred years) and therefore it is not of our genetics to breakdown and consume the dairy of another animal because it happened later in our 'evolution'. The irony is that every aspect of domestication and agriculture is entirely neolithic, producing a product that is entirely different on a genetic level, and it is even admitted by many that domesticated animals do not have the same profile as wild animals. Therefore these animals could be similarly neolithic as domesticated fruits to wild fruits and domesticated rice is to wild rice. Its also possible to have a diet that consists entirely of 'paleolithic food' which consists of exactly the same animal from exactly the same place year round.
Considering the possibility that we developed the practice of cooking and then pasturing some time while living in the Savannah, it would make other modes of processing and storage much more neolithic than the harvesting of dairy, which surely started closely after husbandry began as an obvious food source and result of 'ownership' over the animal kingdom.
Prior to the modern period, no one that lived in the tropics or the Savannah ever experienced a frozen sea fish, or a frozen banana, so the fact that one has to squeeze a vegetable or pacify an animal seems to be a far lesser 'technology' than either cooking or freezing, from a purely ideological point of view, different empirical results and physical results of such notwithstanding.
Another interesting aside about hygiene and other re-enactment type mentalities against specific treatments or foods as having value I think can be illustrated in a simple analysis of weaponized poison and antidote. There is a large well known history of deadly and sometimes naturally-occurring poison pre 'western medicine' that can result in fatal detoxification from the consumer. The only possible way to stop these reactions-> death is by neutralizing the effect in an internal-chemical level which allows the poison to either dissolve or not cause as rapid damage to the tissue and organs afflicted. If someone was exposed to large and lethal quantities of Cyanide, and given a choice of Sodium Nitrate or some similar compound to possibly save their life, all but maybe the most extreme NH fanatic would take the compound, (the hygienist would surely die). Modern humans have both the luxury and the negative aspects of having a body that is extremely efficient in storing toxins internally as to protect basic functioning and in some cases expelling them quite efficiently. Short of dealing with emergency level intoxication from Cyanide, there seems to be a major opportunity to troubleshoot long term how to remove these substances efficiently and healthfully over time without requiring harmful engineered compounds. but the idea that the body intuitively knows how to deal with these stored compounds invented within the last couple hundred years (or prior as mentioned in coal and cooking etc..) seems to be massively contrary to the ideas that exclude such foods based on these same concepts.
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When I met A.V. he never mentioned anything in regards to the quality of what the animals ate.That is to say,he never talked about grass-fed let alone grass-finished.Or even comparisons to grain fed vs grass fed.I only heard about this from this website, and I met A.V. back in c.'97-'98.
Also,he makes honey sound like a "miracle-medicine" IMO which makes certain people eat far too much of it.
That's interesting because he mentions raw organic pasture fed unheated foods all through his writings. Maybe he assumed you knew it. That's one difficulty of teaching, you have to mention everything and then people think you think they are stupid and if you assume certain things then they think you are slack. Or possibly he was unaware at the time. We all learn as time goes on.
Ayurveda calls honey an Anupan meaning it is one of six or seven carriers of nutrients to the cell. Herbal medicines are frequently to be taken with honey. However you are right that too much of anything is not a good idea. Having said that you keep your dirty paws off my stash.. LOL
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You can chew vegetebles to extract the juice in your mouth and then spit out the mainly-indigestable pulp. Aajonus mentions in one of his books that he does this when travelling when he doesn't have access to a juicer.
This is an interesting topic. Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Jane Goodall discovered in her expeditions that Chimps actually "juice" leaves.
Chimps are omnivorous frugivores while Gorillas are more herbivores. Gorillas can handle massive amounts of green plants and are designed to digest it. Chimps do eat some leaves but can't handle as large amounts as Gorillas. Apparently at times, they chew on a big wad, suck out the juice and eventually spit out the fiber. I do supplement my diet with daily juicing and have found it to be immensely helpful for myself and my patients.
If you want to be all natural, do what the chimps do.
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Somewhere in the past I recall someone mentioning juicing leaves of trees. Any thoughts on this?
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raw paleo is all about doing what paleos did, and is philisophical and not based on science
a little bit of cultured dairy, and 72 hour fermented rye grain, not higher than 5 per cent of your diet, is fine,
Ajonus admits in his book he only eats 75 per cent raw
He eats raw dairy,
Does vegetable juice
Does eat bread ,
Unlike a paleo, a paleo eater only does it because, 'thats what paleos did back in the day'
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Ajonus admits in his book he only eats 75 per cent raw
He eats raw dairy,
Does vegetable juice
Does eat bread
It was a couple of decades ago, not now.
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Unlike a paleo, a paleo eater only does it because, 'thats what paleos did back in the day'
nope, just the initial kick in the right direction
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This is an interesting topic. Just wanted to add my 2 cents. Jane Goodall discovered in her expeditions that Chimps actually "juice" leaves.
That's interesting. What did she mean by "juice" and do you have a source on that where I can learn more?
raw paleo is all about doing what paleos did, and is philisophical and not based on science.... a paleo eater only does it because, 'thats what paleos did back in the day'
Not my version of raw Paleo--please speak for yourself. It looks like you have much to learn about Paleo, although it's understandable how you could have been misled, as a number of newbie Paleo dieters seem to hold this same misconception. What are your criteria for determining what to eat, Ster?
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Ajonus admits in his book he only eats 75 per cent raw
He eats raw dairy,
Does vegetable juice
Does eat bread ....
Didn't Tyler report that Aajonus has since gone fully raw and doesn't or rarely eats bread any more? Tyler, can you refresh my memory on this?
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That's interesting. What did she mean by "juice" and do you have a source on that where I can learn more?
Irrelevant as the chimps never ate juiced, chewed veg to the same extent that humans have eaten raw veggie-juice. So, raw veggie-juice is not natural.
Not my version of raw Paleo--please speak for yourself. It looks like you have much to learn about Paleo, as do quite a few newbie Paleo dieters. What are your criteria for determining what to eat, Ster?
Exactly. Most peoples' definition of what rawpalaeo means is that it is a raw version of the (cooked) palaeolithic diet(ie no dairy, no grains, no legumes, and no cooked foods).
Didn't Tyler report that Aajonus has since gone fully raw and doesn't or rarely eats bread any more? Tyler, can you refresh my memory on this?
Correct. Judging from a number of Primal Dieters' accounts in the last 10 years, perhaps more, Aajonus has long since gone fully raw and no longer recommends a tiny bit of cooked starch such as potatoes or the like.
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Thanks for the info, Tyler. There seems to be a lot of old, now obsolete, info about Aajonus and his version of Primal dieting floating around the Web.
Exactly. Most peoples' definition of what rawpalaeo means is that it is a raw version of the (cooked) palaeolithic diet(ie no dairy, no grains, no legumes, and no cooked foods).
I was referring more specifically to the why of eating Paleo. My reasons for eating Paleo are not purely philosophical, are not devoid of science, and are not purely "because that's what Paleos did back in the day," and I have explained this in the past (and even partially in my signature--which perhaps Ster missed?). Ster's criticism is also untrue of some other Paleo dieters I know (such as you and Lex, for example) and I suspect many more. As a matter of fact, a prominent (partially-cooked -- he apparently briefly sears his steaks, for example) Paleo dieter, Kurt Harris, MD, has argued vehemently against adopting this blind-emulation attitude.
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The point is that for most people "palaeo" is all about science as they invariably have dairy-allergies etc.Mostly it's about what they did back in the day, albeit from a scientific perspective. As for Kurt Harris, the latter has only adopted the "palaeo" name because it sounds good , not because he has any remote allegiance to the notion - he is , after all, pro-dairy etc.
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Re KGH--That just further proves one of my points, which is that there are different notions of what is Paleo--yours and KGH's are clearly different--so Ster's castigating all Paleo dieters as holding the same misguided notion of blind emulation is false.
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Re KGH--That just further proves one of my points, which is that there are different notions of what is Paleo--yours and KGH's are clearly different--so Ster's castigating all Paleo dieters as holding the same misguided notion of blind emulation is false.
Except that KGH's notion of what is palaeo is clearly false and purely driven by financial motivations etc. "palaeo" is an obvious, very clear concept, denoting anti-dairy notions, anti-grains etc.
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Except that KGH's notion of what is palaeo is clearly false...
Yeah, yeah, I know you disagree with him, but he likely disagrees with you on your characterization of his views and I don't buy your characterizations myself. Paleo is a big tent with many divergent views and much debate.
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Yeah, yeah, I know you disagree with him, but he likely disagrees with you on your characterization of his views and I don't buy your characterizations myself. Paleo is a big tent with many divergent views and much debate.
No, it isn't. "Palaeo", on a scientific level, means no dairy, grains, or legumes, so anyone allowing such foods cannot be considered "palaeo" at all. "Semi-" palaeo is more like it, if that.
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He might go along with semi-Paleo, as he terms his approach PaleoNu instead of Paleo--I'm not sure; but we're getting away from my point, which is that all people who call themselves Paleo don't do so because they believe in an anti-science philosophy of blind emulation. That is clearly wrong. I know it's not true of me and it only takes one example to disprove a broad slander like that one. It's not true of you, is it?
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How do you guys all know you can not digest dairy properly. I feel fine drinking milk, no upset stomach at all, and have no allergies to it (according to blood allergy tests). But how do I really know I should not drink it? Should I not drink it just because of principle? Currently I only drink raw milk from jersey cows because they dont have A1 casein.
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How do you guys all know you can not digest dairy properly. I feel fine drinking milk, no upset stomach at all, and have no allergies to it (according to blood allergy tests). But how do I really know I should not drink it? Should I not drink it just because of principle? Currently I only drink raw milk from jersey cows because they dont have A1 casein.
I believe is you have the capacity to digest milk properly, then it is your call if you want to consume it regularly as Aajonus does.
I've had too many tummy aches trying different raw animal milks from goat, cow, carabao and they only gave me misery. Taste good, suffer later. Even Yon Yonson tried the cow's milk here and his stomach got upset. Maybe the local milk in my area is bad stuff.
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There are various signs re allergies. I for example had mucus in my nose a lot pre-RPD diet, which is a common aspect of dairy-allergy(the mucus comes from casein in the dairy which cannot be digested properly). No one, not even doctors, had the sense to tell me that this was abnormal, so I just used up tons of tissues to clean my nose all the time.
The trouble is that one can still be allergic to something but not necessarily have any overt symptoms. For example, the raw dairy might only cause mild inflammation somewhere in your digestive system, not enough to cause pain or an overt symptom, but still something that could slow down healing from injuries etc.
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I have had that same issue but have not drank milk in a year, until I came across raw milk. So I've had that issue even without any milk and it pisses me off all the time. I constantly have to clear my nose and never know what it is. But the worst reaction I get from food is any grain products. My stomach hurts and is bloated.
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Pioneer,
What colour is the top of your tongue when you look in the mirror? Is it white or is there a frothiness ?
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well, lets look at it
most paleo's will say they avoid the big 3
dairy,
legumes
grains
yet, cultured dairy is fine in small amounts
soaked and sprouted legumes and grains are okay, as long as its done long enough for about 2 days
and as long as it doesnt go over about 10 per cent of your diet, they shouldnt affect your health much , like things associated with excessive grain use
Paleo diet is just philosophy and ideology. Just so you can call yourself a paleo eater ? so what ? thats just ego
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Well, Ster, since you've apparently decided to ignore the contents of my response, then I'll do the same as regards your latest post.
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Paleo diet is just philosophy and ideology. Just so you can call yourself a paleo eater ? so what ? thats just ego
Come on. People aren't into raw paleo diet for the ego.
Some of us are / were sick.
And some of us just want to be really healthy.
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well, lets look at it
most paleo's will say they avoid the big 3
dairy,
legumes
grains
yet, cultured dairy is fine in small amounts
soaked and sprouted legumes and grains are okay, as long as its done long enough for about 2 days
and as long as it doesnt go over about 10 per cent of your diet, they shouldnt affect your health much , like things associated with excessive grain use
Paleo diet is just philosophy and ideology. Just so you can call yourself a paleo eater ? so what ? thats just ego
On what grounds are these foods "ok"? Do you know the physiology of grains, legumes, and dairy, and how they work in the body? Do you know how a human digests food? Grains and legumes are the worst of the bunch, if you wanna consume raw milk, fine, as long as you dont have a problem with it. However, I/we care very little what anybody says about who ate what in this period of time and that period of time. Why? because modern science proves what foods we can properly digest, assimilate, and utilize. Modern science knows that heating foods, and certainly frying foods (but heating foods in general) creates a whole s*$t load of toxins and carcinogens. These carcinogens range from lipid peroxides, AGEs(Advanced Glycation Endproducts), heterocyclic amines, acrylamides, arsenic, to estrogen, and mutagens. Dont test us with the science behind the issue, most of us on here have a plethora of documents regarding these issues. Hell, there are whole entire text books written on heterocyclic amines and arsenic alone. And it doesnt take much for a scientist to isolate those carcinogens from food. Most of the levels of these carcinogens and toxins are over 1000 times higher than the limits of what water companies test for in their drinking water. Besides cooking, naturally, grains and legumes are very toxic and have toxins ranging from enzyme inhibitors, lectins, inflammation causing toxins. Though the uneducated theorist would say, well then cook them. Well, remember what I just said above about heat created carcinogens, and toxins, this applies to all food, some worse, some less. And even still, after cooking, fermenting, sprouting, etc... No scientist was ever able to rid grains and legumes of all the toxins. In fact Estrogen is the most resistant and even proper soy fermentation will still show high estrogens in the bean.
Almost all grains and legumes contain trypsin inhibitors. The enzyme trypsin that comes from your pancreas and raw food is the main enzyme against all cancers. Why would you want to inhibit the enzyme that will destroy cancer? All grains and legumes contain allergens, no matter what kind, doesnt matter. The philosophy of our diet is the strongest around. Most people cant break free from the clutches of societal norms and would rather be "normal" and keep eating nice juicy cheesesteaks and pizza. However we RPDers eat to live, not live to eat. We abide by the wisdom of nature, not man. And we consider ourselves just as much animal as any other species on this planet. No other animal/ species on this planet eats cooked food. If they do, they have cancer. this has been observed in most house hold pets. What makes humans so arrogant to think we can just disregard the simply laws of nature and eat cooked food? We are not aliens.
Friend, I hate to burst you bubble, but it must be done sir. All of the information and science regarding food has pretty much already been done. Sure there's more to study in food science. But if you believe that the government and FDA, or any other agency/ institution have gotten your back and gives you high quality and safe food, you're in fairy tale land. I dont say all this to be an arrogant dick either, its to help you. Please make the right choice.
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http://www.healingourchildren.net/food_nutrition_health.htm
weston price proved you could be healthy on grains and dairy
anyway, clever people know that they contain enzyme inhibitors, so thats why they ferment/ or culture them
so what no other animal cooks food ? we're not animals . animals dont sit on computers, drive cars, so what ?
thats a silly argument
your logic makes no sense.
An ideal diet would be a paleo based diet, but ideal for what is the main question . ?
most people have the same goals and ambitions and emotions anyway regardless of the food they eat
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back to the topic
you asked the difference in aajonus diet and paleo diet
and i told you he eats bread and dairy and a little cooked food
i then attempted to justify it, fairly i guess, and said you could still be healthy with those foods in a very small amount
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so what no other animal cooks food ? we're not animals . animals dont sit on computers, drive cars, so what ?
thats a silly argument
We are animals, were just another species.
We are unique and different of course. As are many other animals.
Did humans evolve with computers and cars? NO
Did we evolve eating raw foods? YES
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We are animals, were just another species.
We are unique and different of course. As are many other animals.
Did humans evolve with computers and cars? NO
Did we evolve eating raw foods? YES
obviously what you say is correct, but is completely irrelevant.
based on your logic we SHOULD eat raw dairy and raw soaked legumes, because, well, its raw
We're not discussing raw, we're discussing dairy, legumes and grains
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obviously what you say is correct, but is completely irrelevant.
based on your logic we SHOULD eat raw dairy and raw soaked legumes, because, well, its raw
We're not discussing raw, we're discussing dairy, legumes and grains
let be more specif we evolved eating mainly raw wild animals and raw seasonal plants
not dairy, and sprouted legumes and grains,
cave paintings were of animals prehistoric people hunted, they were so important to their existence,
they didn't paint milking cows and soaking seeds, they would have painted them too if they were of such importance to survival
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http://www.healingourchildren.net/food_nutrition_health.htm
weston price proved you could be healthy on grains and dairy
anyway, clever people know that they contain enzyme inhibitors, so thats why they ferment/ or culture them
so what no other animal cooks food ? we're not animals . animals dont sit on computers, drive cars, so what ?
thats a silly argument
your logic makes no sense.
An ideal diet would be a paleo based diet, but ideal for what is the main question . ?
most people have the same goals and ambitions and emotions anyway regardless of the food they eat
Sorry, but if you wanna be the healthiest you can be, drop the legumes, grains, and dairy. No it does not matter whether you ferment them or not. Fermenting and sprouting is propaganda. It only gets rid of some of the toxins. Science studies prove that many toxins still remain no matter what is done to them. My logic is actually very simple and makes complete sense. Its not even logic, its fact. did you read my post? Answer this question: If we are not animals than what are we?
Weston A Price analyzed people's teeth and physical appearance. He showed that degeneration occurred when eating denatured, cooked, and processed food. Is that not what I said we humans eat, that animals don't? Are you contradicting yourself? Did you read Nutrition and physical degeneration? Did you read Pottenger's cats? These books prove the dangers of cooked foods.
Just because Weston Price's studies of teeth and physical appearance were quite great for showing degeneration, they dont tell us much of allergies, inflammation, and any internal problems. However, just because the mountain swiss ate sprouted bread and raw milk, and didnt have any carries or rotting, and "appeared" to be in good health does not mean they were in optimal health. Im not saying his studies were not great, they were, but they did not show the internal side of the story, they did not show what happened in the body, or provide information on the vitality of the individuals. Therefore, I am sorry to say it, but to say that the groups who ate bread were healthy is just suspicion. Once again, we dont care so much about what happened, and when, more so of what we know now. You could eat bread and think your healthy all day, we dont care. The only thing that means anything relevant is what we know now. Chemists isolate compounds and make experiments to see how they react. They then observe individuals to see similar reactions when consuming that compound. Science knows what is optimal and what isnt.
And I hate to burst your bubble, but if you think that comparing us to animals is not important, you are living in fairy town. Every scientist knows 99.9% of scientific testing is done on animals. Once done on animals, then they can prove theories, or do further testing on people. You can contradict the fact that we are animals all you want, but it is the same as contradicting 99.9% of science, which inevitably would mean you'd be contradicting yourself in the end.
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Pioneer,
What colour is the top of your tongue when you look in the mirror? Is it white or is there a frothiness ?
Sorry I didnt respond to your post earlier. My tongue always appears white on top. What does that mean?
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At the time you indicated that...
"I constantly have to clear my nose and never know what it is. "
Your body gets rid of things it doesn't need anymore or toxins through the breath, sweat, faeces, urine, snot and gas. If you have excessive amounts of mucus in your nose that is a good thing because it means that it is being expelled.
In Ayurveda when food is not digested properly, sometimes the undigested food is not expelled and it makes its way into the bloodstream and flows around the body till it finds a weak spot, settles there and starts the disease process. You can tell the presence of undigested food in the system by the colour of the tongue. If it is white there is undigested food or ama (basically toxins) in your system. Different colours mean different things ie red, yellow, brown and black. This doesn't mean you will die tonight in your sleep as it can be a slow process and it usually results in chronic conditions.
To get rid of this stuff on your tongue, I would suggest that you use a tongue scraper if you can find one or just use a spoon to scrape this white off your tongue first thing in the morning. Don't tear the skin off, but just give it a comfortable scrape.
To flush it out of your system you can try putting water in a copper cup in the evening before bed and then in the AM drink the water. DO NOT boil the water in the copper or put hot water in the cup, just normal tap temperature cool water. If you can't find a copper cup take some copper (say a penny and wash it very well) and put it in a regular cup. The copper has the effect of scrubbing your innards and will activate your digestion, so that the foods will be digested better and thus no ama on your tongue. This may be too strong for some people so it may not be appropriate to do it everyday. If it is too strong you may just get a slightly sour or acidic effect from it, depending on your individual system. This may help your mucus in the nose issue. It is difficult to diagnose from a computer screen and I am not psychic ;) so this is just an educated guess.
Another possibility might be to have some lemon with your food or something else with a strong pungent flavour.
The best which may be too strong for some people is to mix a very small amount of salt with a very small amount of lemon and have a small pinch of this before eating. Just chew it up and hold it in your mouth for a bit.
Obviously not paleo but neither are the lives we lead.
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I forgot to add that you can also tell the specific location of the toxins (Ama) in the body, by the sections of the tongue that are discoloured.
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they didn't paint milking cows and soaking seeds, they would have painted them too if they were of such importance to survival
Funny... :)
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The paleo painters painted a lot of horses.
Must have been a favorite food.
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At the time you indicated that...
"I constantly have to clear my nose and never know what it is. "
Your body gets rid of things it doesn't need anymore or toxins through the breath, sweat, faeces, urine, snot and gas. If you have excessive amounts of mucus in your nose that is a good thing because it means that it is being expelled.
In Ayurveda when food is not digested properly, sometimes the undigested food is not expelled and it makes its way into the bloodstream and flows around the body till it finds a weak spot, settles there and starts the disease process. You can tell the presence of undigested food in the system by the colour of the tongue. If it is white there is undigested food or ama (basically toxins) in your system. Different colours mean different things ie red, yellow, brown and black. This doesn't mean you will die tonight in your sleep as it can be a slow process and it usually results in chronic conditions.
To get rid of this stuff on your tongue, I would suggest that you use a tongue scraper if you can find one or just use a spoon to scrape this white off your tongue first thing in the morning. Don't tear the skin off, but just give it a comfortable scrape.
To flush it out of your system you can try putting water in a copper cup in the evening before bed and then in the AM drink the water. DO NOT boil the water in the copper or put hot water in the cup, just normal tap temperature cool water. If you can't find a copper cup take some copper (say a penny and wash it very well) and put it in a regular cup. The copper has the effect of scrubbing your innards and will activate your digestion, so that the foods will be digested better and thus no ama on your tongue. This may be too strong for some people so it may not be appropriate to do it everyday. If it is too strong you may just get a slightly sour or acidic effect from it, depending on your individual system. This may help your mucus in the nose issue. It is difficult to diagnose from a computer screen and I am not psychic ;) so this is just an educated guess.
Another possibility might be to have some lemon with your food or something else with a strong pungent flavour.
The best which may be too strong for some people is to mix a very small amount of salt with a very small amount of lemon and have a small pinch of this before eating. Just chew it up and hold it in your mouth for a bit.
Obviously not paleo but neither are the lives we lead.
The stuff on my tongue does not bother me. Also, some of that stuff doesnt really make sense to me because my tongue is the whitest when I am sick and have excessive mucus. Could the white stuff just be mucus buildup? Or a way of getting rid of mucus? Either way, since I started this diet, my tongue color changed from white to pretty much red. I think that drinking milk makes more mucus. I was sick a week ago when I went back to school eating cafeteria food. When I got fed up with it, spent the extra $ and went raw again, the whiteness on my tongue is actually quickly receding. However, my nose is still always clogged, I think I need to quit the dairy.
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Red or more pinkish is the normal colour.
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At the time you indicated that...
"I constantly have to clear my nose and never know what it is. "
Your body gets rid of things it doesn't need anymore or toxins through the breath, sweat, faeces, urine, snot and gas. If you have excessive amounts of mucus in your nose that is a good thing because it means that it is being expelled. ....
But chronically for years? When should the detox finally resolve? If it goes on forever that doesn't suggest to me that it's a healthy sign. When I ate a SAD I had chronic throat mucus, post-nasal drip and white tongue. It all greatly improved when I went Paleo and resolved when I adopted a carnivore diet.
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For some reason that I cannot tell (from what I have listened to what you have said) you are consuming something that is the source of it.
Ayurveda has a principle or main idea that the quality and tastes of what you eat (or consume through any of the senses) obey the laws of similars in the sense that if you eat a lot of oily, unctuous, moist food you will have an excess of it in your system and it will tend to manifest or show up somewhere. That could be in gaining weight, illnesses of swelling, ie. oedema, puffiness, various kinds of liquid buildup or the preferable way which is to discharge it somewhere, which in your case is out the nose. So your immune system is doing it's job. Better to be blowing your nose than having real internal issues is what I am saying.
So to get rid of this issue you should reduce the amount of oily, unctuous, moist food consumption, or increase the digestive fire. Since I don't know what you eat I can guess that increasing the digestive fire is the key.
Eating dry, light, warm food is the other solution. These qualities; dry, light and warm are the opposite of wet, oily unctuous snot. Warm doesn't necessarily mean cooked BTW, it means not cold, say room temperature. Drying your meat in a natural way might fit the bill for instance. Maybe eat less. The flavour pungent is hot dry and light so maybe a bit of pungent flavour might not go astray. Maybe increase the amount of raw vege in your diet. Ayurveda is very simple really once you grasp certain principles. The devil is in the details.
If you increase the digestive fire then the food is properly metabolized and available to your body as nutrition, rather than becoming like smoke from a pisspoor fire which makes it's way into the bloodstream and ends up showing up on your tongue as a white coating. If the digestion is strong the excess crap will come out as crap.
In my case my nose is very dry. No moist snot. So when snot dries on the walls I have to either put some oil on my finger and coat the nostril to soften it so I can blow it out or I have to draw a bit of water in to get rid of it because picking it breaks the blood vessels and tears out the cilia which causes infection and increased size eventually leading to serious infections. So for me I have to increase consumption of wet, oily, unctuous foods. I 'll trade ya. ;D
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...Better to be blowing your nose than having real internal issues is what I am saying.
Better still to have neither of those issues. One or both are exacerbated in my case when I eat too much dairy, grains, legumes, fruits, nightshades, tubers and winter squashes.
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I feel that my nose airways are restricted because of my issue. Maybe I could breath better if they weren't always clogged. I am starting to believed in the chinese notion of yin and yang applied to food. To balance the temperature of your food consumed. In other words, to almost always eat foods at the temperature of your environment, or its natural temp. I dont think it is good to eat either too hot or too cold food as it disrupts digestion and enzymes.
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I feel that my nose airways are restricted because of my issue. Maybe I could breath better if they weren't always clogged.
That was my experience. I used to think that maybe part of my problem was my narrow nose and perhaps inherited constricted nasal passages, but when I eliminated the triggering foods I found I could breath much better. I've known people who had multiple surgeries to open up their sinuses and experienced zero benefit. I've read that sinus surgery is one of the least successful of all surgeries.
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I feel that my nose airways are restricted because of my issue. Maybe I could breath better if they weren't always clogged. I am starting to believed in the chinese notion of yin and yang applied to food. To balance the temperature of your food consumed. In other words, to almost always eat foods at the temperature of your environment, or its natural temp. I dont think it is good to eat either too hot or too cold food as it disrupts digestion and enzymes.
Exactly!