Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: jolifee on November 12, 2010, 03:53:11 pm
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Hi,
Piki from malaysia!!
Ate some raw cow's liver, been to WAP seminar in London, now on kefir daily,
Can't eat cooked food as it give me rashes~
Nice to be connected to you guys!!
:)
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Welcome!
Kefir... be careful with that! -d I'd rather eat durian and fish daily. But Malacca Straights seems very dirty and polluted, isn't it? What about water buffalo meat?
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Yup, fish is tasty here, but i dont know how long it's kept before reaching the market.
I prefer live fish in the restaurant aquarium.
Water buffalo? Never saw one in the city, I guess they use the buffalos for farming rice fields.
What's wrong with Kefir? mind sharing?
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Kefir is not paleo. Dairy consumption is very recent in our evolutionary history and is typically Neolithic. All kind of serious troubles may result in the long term from dairy consumption.
Fish from restaurant aquariums? They are fed cooked junk, aren't they?
As far as I know water buffalos are not fed, they are grazing only, so their meat should be fine. But of course, you won't see any in KL center!
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Welcome to the forum!
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Milk consumption has been recorded 20.000 years BC. I'd say that is a fair amount of time to adapt.
Anywho, I wont be as arrogant and obnoxious as to tell you that you should or should not drink milk. Try it out, see how you fare on it and then make up your mind.
A lot of people here have problems with it. I for one, have no problems what so ever and am thoroughly enjoying my milk experience and think it's of great benefit.
As far as kefir goes, I'm not fond of it. You do realize that it's a mushroom right? And it provides very little but yeast, which I don't want in my body.
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Aside note;- I do wish people wouldn't blindly make false assumptions about length of time supposedly implying adaptation. Paleophil, a while back, gave a perfect example of the illogicality of this assumption by citing the case of the giant pandas who have been eating bamboo for 2 million years+ and yet who are still largely unadapted to eating bamboo, re their digestive systems. Cooked-foodists in general also use this length of time theory to falsely claim that human beings must have fully adapted to cooked foods by now because we've been eating them for 250,000 years. Then there is Wrangham who, in order to state that cooked food is supposedly responsible for the larger hominid brain, arbitrarily, without any credible evidence, tried to claim that humans ate cooked food a million years ago. Of course, the multitude of scientific data concerning humans affected negatively by heat-created toxins and the incredibly common occurrence of lactose-intolerance within humans in general, efficiently debunks such notions.
Interesting view re kefir. Usually raw-dairy enthusiasts are quite enthusiastic about kefir and I was even assured, once by another RVAFer, that even if I did not do well on raw dairy, that kefir would be fine for me.
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Welcome!
Get used to the debates and arguments, it must be a raw paleo thing :o
Different strokes for different folks.
I stay away from any milk myself as none of them worked for me yet... just can't digest it.
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Milk consumption has been recorded 20.000 years BC. I'd say that is a fair amount of time to adapt.
Anywho, I wont be as arrogant and obnoxious as to tell you that you should or should not drink milk. Try it out, see how you fare on it and then make up your mind.
A lot of people here have problems with it. I for one, have no problems what so ever and am thoroughly enjoying my milk experience and think it's of great benefit.
I never tell anybody that he or she shouldn't drink milk, everyone being free to eat and drink whatever they want. I just warn that dairy may induce serious trouble in the long term (even if everything is fine in the short term), as the wide scale and long duration experiments undertaken by Burger and friends in the 60s and by Seignalet in the 80s showed.
You and most Nordic people don't have any short term problems with dairy. It's a known fact that milk consumption has been established in Scandinavia and Alps mountains far longer than in South-East Asia and Africa, so there is probably a partial adaptation in Northern and Alpine European people – and perhaps some individuals may even be completely adapted. Unfortunately, there’s no way to know if one is totally adapted, partially adapted or not adapted at all, because short term well being is no proof that the stuff is safe in the long run. The phenomenon of habituation should be taken into account: habituation is not adaptation, it only means that the immune system has given up to reject a particular kind of antigens since the body is continuously inundated with it.
For the body to get out of tolerance to some stuff, one needs to suppress the thing sufficiently long. Then, by suddenly reintroducing it, troubles may immediately appear – or may not appear.
That said, raw dairy still is a food that contain valuable nutrients able to counter nutritional deficiencies and it is certainly better to consume raw dairy than no animal food at all.
Sorry if I appear pedantic, but I’m from Lausanne, Switzerland, where more than 40 years of experience, testing, experimentation, questioning, thinking over and brain storming about this subject has been done by people I know well. Unfortunately all the accounts of their experiments on hundreds of mice and other animals have been lost after Burger went to Mexico (apparently nobody paid the rent of the premises where these documents were stored and the owner of the place burned it). But these experiments can easily be reproduced by anyone.
Cheers
Francois
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Keefer made me feel worse and I stupidly ate it anyway for a few months before I realized that it wasn't helping at all. I am not saying that dairy is universally bad, but I believe that anyone with suspected dietary issues should try to give it up along with grains for an extended period to see if there is any improvements. I have been dairy free for ten months and don't miss it one bit, although I do have a strong craving for butter and will taste a bite when making food for my kids.
I will cook mushrooms,eggs,sweet potatoes,bacon in butter for the kids, and I try to cover all of their cooked foods in a layer of melted pasture butter. I will give them milk to drink. I do believe that the young can handle dairy better than adults and that because most people would never feed their young raw paleo those kids have to obtain animal fats and nutrients somehow and dairy is what the world has deemed wholesome for growing kids to consume. But its not optimal and I wish I didn't feel obligated to give my children store bought yogurt, milk and cheese, but I don't have the means to feed them anybetter. My breakfast growing up was general mills sugar cereal with milk and off I went to school.
Anyway There is a strong anti-dairy wing of the paleo movement and it seems that those with past health issues are the ones who do the best without it(in general)
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Dairy consumption is very recent in our evolutionary history and is typically Neolithic.
Stop saying this, it is a lie. Say that consuming any particularly significant amount of dairy is very recent and typically neolithic, not that consuming dairy is, because that is bull milk. Clearly people who killed a female animal are going to drink the milk. That doesn't much affect at all what you're saying, because this small amount of milk is almost insignificant, and so leaves what you are saying to stand.... but you can't say that no one consumed any dairy. Of course there would be no reason for people to have adapted to this small and insignificant quantity, as it would have virtually no effect on their survival, but they would still have had access to some milk, and at least occasionally, some people would have had some.
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Well, that doesn't necessarily follow. I recall many carnivores such as lions leaving out certain parts of the carcass( I read once that lions leave out the sac containing the excrement , for example, while wolves routinely leave out the vegetable-stomach-contents of herbivores).
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Stop saying this, it is a lie.
I said “typically”. So, I don’t mean that no hominid never ever drank a single drop of animal milk. And AFAIK there’s freedom of speech here. If you disagree with me, you’re free to politely expose your disagreement without calling me a liar, hey.
Say that consuming any particularly significant amount of dairy is very recent and typically neolithic, not that consuming dairy is, because that is bull milk.
Aren’t you hair splitting?
Clearly people who killed a female animal are going to drink the milk.
May I doubt about that? I don’t say that they wouldn’t drink that milk in all the cases: I don’t know.
That doesn't much affect at all what you're saying, because this small amount of milk is almost insignificant, and so leaves what you are saying to stand.... but you can't say that no one consumed any dairy. Of course there would be no reason for people to have adapted to this small and insignificant quantity, as it would have virtually no effect on their survival, but they would still have had access to some milk, and at least occasionally, some people would have had some.
Yes, perhaps. Just like some would have had access to grilled meat and tubers after a volcanic eruption. So, we agree, finally, don’t we?
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I didn't understand what you meant by 'typically neolithic', I do now, and if I'd understood that then I wouldn't have replied.
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Hehehe...thanks for posting all your experiences here
I drink kefir for 10days, and I feel great, my energy level rises, my digestion is improved and my cousin was cured from constipation from drinking kefir.
I make kefir from raw cow's milk, fresh from the farm, grass fed too.
I believe God gives grass as food to them, and milk as food to us. Cattles are turning the greens into milk so that we can consume and digest.
Piki :)
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Hehehe...thanks for posting all your experiences here
I drink kefir for 10days, and I feel great, my energy level rises, my digestion is improved and my cousin was cured from constipation from drinking kefir.
I make kefir from raw cow's milk, fresh from the farm, grass fed too.
I believe God gives grass as food to them, and milk as food to us. Cattles are turning the greens into milk so that we can consume and digest.
Piki :)
Exactly find what works for you best. Just wondering how long were you fruitarian. Must have been nice living in malaysia :)