I've been through this train of thought and asked the question and basically no.
Maybe you could accept sweet potato cooked for now?
You would probably need to eat it as far away as possible from raw meat as for me they really don't mix..made myself feel sick that way.
Maybe you could eat raw meat and fat and the upper limit of fruit you can take, say 100g carb from fruit a day, then one day of the week 'carb up' with a cooked tuber meal.
Good luck in the race.
Maybe you could accept sweet potato cooked for now?
Another idea I have is to just train zero carb as I can usually go a few days before all the gylcogen is used up. Then once my body is crying out for carbs I could carb up with cooked tuber/ raw veg until i've replenished. Hmmm. I'll keep thinking.
Why cook it? They are very tasty raw, at least the pink ones.Maybe I wont then. If they can be eaten raw then i'll try them out ;)
Funny how both of you see nutrition on a purely technical side, as if it was just like an engineering matter for things we conceive and more or less master! Life is much more complex than anything we manufacture with the best of our very limited knowledge and we will never be able to know what exactly happen in the living cells for all the billions of different molecular structures living organisms deal with.
Why cook it? They are very tasty raw, at least the pink ones.
Funny how both of you see nutrition on a purely technical side, as if it was just like an engineering matter for things we conceive and more or less master! Life is much more complex than anything we manufacture with the best of our very limited knowledge and we will never be able to know what exactly happen in the living cells for all the billions of different molecular structures living organisms deal with.
Cheers
Francois
Perhaps we were meant to digest small amounts of raw, not cooked, starches?
And if we weren't 'supposed' to eat cooked starches, why would our saliva produce amylase?
Because they contain loads of inhibitors and are very tough to digest raw. That's why.
And as far as OP's questions. If you want raw complex carbs, then sprouted beans and grains are your best option. Although I for one don't like it. I cook my 'taters and it gives my loads of energy.
And if we weren't 'supposed' to eat cooked starches, why would our saliva produce amylase?
Perhaps we were meant to digest small amounts of raw, not cooked, starches?
Hi Francois,
Thanks for your comments. I've read a good few of your posts and very much appreciate sharing your thoughts.
How do you see nutrition then? I didn't see myself approaching it techincally, just trying to make sense out of my body and what it needs by listening to it.
Because they contain loads of inhibitors and are very tough to digest raw. That's why.
Thanks, glad you’ve read a good few of my posts!
I see nutrition just as our ancestors saw it before they mastered the fire, before the had any knowledge about the basic constituents of food, biochemistry and biology. They didn’t know and didn’t care about weighting their food, about simple and complex carbs, fibers, fats and proteins ratios, keto-adaptation and so on. Like all the animals, they just ate whatever good smelling and tasty stuff they found - also in part knowing how to find the good food by learning from their parents and others members of their tribe.
I eat sweet potatoes quite often and never had the slightest problem to digest it.
... that it doesn't matter what raw you eat really as long as it is RAW and edible (and tasty) then it should be good for you?
Francois, thanks again for replying. I 100% agree with your views on nutrition and how one should approach nutrition as our ancestors did but no-one really knows what exactly they had available to them. Yes they were finding good foods but was it predominately meat or tubers or fruit etc or is this what you are trying to say - that it doesn't matter what raw you eat really as long as it is RAW and edible (and tasty) then it should be good for you?
Usually but not always, thee are some slightly poisonous and very deadly plants there that seem edible and even tasty. There has even cases of animals overdosing and becoming ill on certain plants, even wild animals.
Thanks, glad you’ve read a good few of my posts!
I see nutrition just as our ancestors saw it before they mastered the fire, before the had any knowledge about the basic constituents of food, biochemistry and biology. They didn’t know and didn’t care about weighting their food, about simple and complex carbs, fibers, fats and proteins ratios, keto-adaptation and so on. Like all the animals, they just ate whatever good smelling and tasty stuff they found - also in part knowing how to find the good food by learning from their parents and others members of their tribe.
I eat sweet potatoes quite often and never had the slightest problem to digest it.
Perhaps we were meant to digest small amounts of raw, not cooked, starches?It would be useful to have more info on the starches that were eaten raw by hominins before cooking was developed, then people might not jump so readily to the conclusion that we are designed to eat cooked tubers because we have salivary amylase. I think this is one of the crucial unanswered questions re: raw Paleo.
But I eat around 3-4 large sweet potatoes before I go training. I've tried doing that raw many times and my workouts are always a mess.Usually I don't eat anything before the training and everything is very OK.
Sure, if you're eating a small snack of sweet potatoes you wont feel much.
But I eat around 3-4 large sweet potatoes before I go training. I've tried doing that raw many times and my workouts are always a mess. Also sweet potatoes contain protein digestion inhibitors so it will hurt my weight gains.
On a Ray Mears show he brings a plant expert with him who's never really been anywhere before. Ray mears drops him off in some area with loads of plants and he finds so many kinds of plants that are edible raw, I guess most wouldn't have starch though... In a video I watched of the aborigines they had 2 yams, one was edible raw.Yes, I saw that video too. Here it is:
Don't some fruits and nuts have starch in too?Yes, but when I looked into this the ones I checked at Nutritiondata didn't have a lot, as I recall. I wonder how much starch there is in the mongongo nut?
If you do very hard trainingIt depends on what do you mean by that, precisely.
Either you're fully adapted to fat and can get enough energy from that or you have to eat carbs. The energy has to come from somewhere.That's true.
In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. ... No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. ...All plants contain antinutrients (also called antioxidants or phytonutrients--the fact that plant pesticides can be both medicines and toxins confuses a lot of people), including squashes. If they didn't, their original forms would not have survived in the wild. Domesticated plants have reduced antinutrient levels, which is why they require pesticides to keep them from being eaten up by insects and other "pests".
Squash Antinutrients
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=62
Summer squash is among a small number of foods that contain measurable amounts of oxalates, naturally-occurring substances found in plants, animals, and human beings. When oxalates become too concentrated in body fluids, they can crystallize and cause health problems.
List of oxalate content of foods
http://wholisticpeds.com/uploads/List%20of%20oxalate%20content%20of%20foods%20alphabetical.pdf
International Food Safety Handbook: Science, International Regulation, and Control (Food Science and Technology) by Vanderheijden (Jul 16, 1999)
"Other Plant Toxins
In addition to the group of toxins briefly reviewed here, several other plant toxins have been considered by an expert committee on toxic plant components to constitute a risk to the consumer [25]. These include the coumarins, furocoumarins, saponins, vicine and convicine, isoflavones, terpenes, cycasine, glycyrrhizin, hydrazones, lupin alkaloids, methylxanthines, oxalates, and toxic amino acids.
Summer squash has two phytochemicals: coumarins and flavonoids [1]. http://food-contents.blogspot.com/2009/05/squash-nutrients.html
Coumarin Toxicity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coumarin#Toxicity_and_use_in_foods.2C_beverages.2C_tobacco.2C_and_cosmetics
"Coumarin is moderately toxic to the liver and kidneys, with an LD50 of 275 mg/kg—low compared to related compounds. Although only somewhat dangerous to humans, coumarin is a potent rodenticide: rats and other rodents largely metabolize it to 3,4-coumarin epoxide, a toxic compound that can cause internal hemorrhage and death. Humans largely metabolize it to 7-hydroxycoumarin, a compound of lower toxicity."
I..I eat enough the previous day. It suffices for 1,5-hour training without any problems. ..I eat enough carbs so that muscle glycogen would not be competely depleted.
I'm also fat adapted very well.
(...) you need enough usable calories for what you do, you need time to adapt to using fat, you need enough protein to rebuild muscle...these things can't be magicked away.
All plants contain antinutrients (also called antioxidants or phytonutrients--the fact that plant pesticides can be both medicines and toxins confuses a lot of people), including squashes. If they didn't, their original forms would not have survived in the wild. Domesticated plants have reduced antinutrient levels, which is why they require pesticides to keep them from being eaten up by insects and other "pests".Maybe you read too much...instead of reading how harmful everything is you should experiment and see what works for your body. I'm 100% raw and I find the squash to be a great source of carbs if a person has decides to have some on raw diet. That doesn't mean that it's going to work for everyone but it suits me better than fruit and tubers.
Winter squashes are New World foods that were not consumed during most or all of the Stone Age and are generally cooked to make them edible. I have read that even indigenous Americans didn't eat winter squashes until after their toxin levels had been reduced through selection. Originally they were apparently dried and used as containers of water and foods.
Why would we need time to adapt to using fat? Aren't we adapted to using fat from birth? Is there any reason why we wouldn't eat enough proteins for our muscles?
Can't we get calories from carbohydrates also?
Is there any reason why we wouldn't eat enough proteins for our muscles?
What does raw squash taste like? I didn't know it could be eaten raw.. Which squashes can/do you eat?It tastes delicious. I've tried all of them, but the best ones nutrient wise and the palatable is the Butternut and Acorn squash. I was searching for a starch source that I wouldn't have to cook and that is provides the most cost-benefit ratio. I just peel them throw them in the chopper and mix with my raw meat/fish or eggs meals. Delicious and so easy to digest! The raw butternut squash is kind of sweet and its taste is similar to a cooked sweet potato. The acorn squash is not very sweet and tastes kind of like a cooked potato, well maybe :-) The spaghetti squash which I don't eat that much tastes just like, surprise, spaghetti :-)
Sounds interesting. A raw squash may be quite paleo...like citron melon.I assume fat could work for some people; unfortunately, I'm not of them. Eating the fattiest cuts of meat and fish for six months and zero carbs nearly killed me due to insomnia which doesn't help when you're weight lifting and going to college. As soon as I've added back the carbs, insomnia is gone. The elevated catecholamines when eating only fat/protein made me feel really energetic and sharp, but I could not take the insomnia anymore. The Butternut squash solved everything :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citron_melon
my money's still on fat long term though.
In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. After being on a all meat and eggs diet for 6 months, I've had a tremendous decline in performance in the gym and have basically killed my adrenals. I've finally managed to overcome my carb phobia and about a three weeks ago I've started to add carbs back into my diet. I've tried plantains, bananas, and other fruits, carrots, parsnips as well as sweet potatoes. None of these suited me until I've finally found the super delicious squash. No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. Ever since I have added these to my diet, I have seen tremendous improvements in my health. Better sleep, exercise performance etc.
It's nice to have outside opinions of what is 'raw paleo' so that a forum doesn't become a circle jerk.Yes, I agree, and just because squashes weren't eaten during most or all of the Stone Age and contain antinutrients and may not be truly "Paleo" (about which there is disagreement on what it means) doesn't necessarily mean that no one should ever eat them nowadays. Also, while a variety of opinions is good, I try to be respectful of the fact that this is a raw Paleo forum, not an eat-anything-diet forum.
Maybe you read too much...instead of reading how harmful everything is you should experiment and see what works for your body.Are you assuming I don't experiment and see what works for me? Have you read my signature or my journal? If not, please do that before judging me.
I'm 100% raw and I find the squash to be a great source of carbs if a person has decides to have some on raw diet. That doesn't mean that it's going to work for everyone but it suits me better than fruit and tubers.I commend you for that more careful wording. If you had written that to begin with there would have been no disagreement.
I'm glad you got something working. to me, finding compatible plant foods with little consequences is always exciting. Other than the insomnia and reading Matt Stone's site, do you have any diagnostics or other tests that show shot adrenals? I'm willing to think despite what our natural diet is, that LC or ZC can cause such burn out in contemporary circumstances, but it seems like the cures are often rather expedient for such dire damage attributed to LC. what would you estimate are acceptable levels of carbs for preventing such issues? What do you mean by eating just fatty meat and fish? minimal marrow, suet, back-type fats or dairy fat?80% decrease in testosterone, elevated thyroid antibodies, insomnia, racing mind, boundless energy, poor recovery from weight training sessions, sudden increase of energy in the evening etc. I can't deny how good it feels to be zero carb, I would probably continue to stay do it since i love meat, organs, fatty fish, shellfish. However, my thyroid is suffering, testosterone nearly non-existent, but the thing that made me realize that I'm really going to need a few carbs was the insomnia.
80% decrease in testosterone, elevated thyroid antibodies
I'm really glad that I found an easily digestible and tasty starch that I don't have to cook. Delicious, raw, low in fructose, combines well with everything, facilitates corpse like sleep, provides energy for heavy workouts in the gym as well as full of vitamins and minerals. I just can't believe that some people always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates....
Celeriac:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2394/2
Just had this raw today, nice and tasty, tasted like raw mushrooms in some ways. 9g starch/100g it would seem.
I also tried some of a butternut squash I had in my house, raw, I didn't like it; and tried some raw sweet potato, didn't like that either.
Yuli, are any of those comments supposed to be in response to anything I wrote? If so, please direct them to me and I'll respond. Thanks.
What about malanga? I haven't tried it but I read it has a nutty flavor although I'm not sure if they were talking about it cooked or raw.
thanksI know that you weren't criticizing, I'm just sick of people who always try to find something wrong with foods that I think are harmless unless they're suffering from orthorexia or are a serious psychological problem that causes them to demonize foods such as squash, carrots and other completely perfect carbohydrates sources. I read everything from Vonderplanitz, Lyle McDonald, and all fo the gurus out there. From my experience the best diet is a raw protein/fat diet with the addition of carbs tailored towards the specific individual. I know that I will never eat cooked foods unless I have no other choice and my life depends on it. However to demonize carbohydrates from foods such as squashes, root vegetables is insane. Matt Stone has a lot of good information on his blog, but his dietary advice is absolutely ridiculous. Cooked foods and the diet that he currently recommends is not healthy at all and I just ignore that part. But he is right about a lot of things such as low carb causing problems and other things. I was an elite ice hockey player and a boxer and I love being active, and I made a big mistake thinking that I was eating the prefect diet of our ancestors full of meat and fat while thinking that carbs are "bad" and that they're not essential. They may not be essential in an anatomy/physiology book, but as I've come to find out, they are essential for some individuals in order to stay healthy.
yeah I wasn't criticizing, I was more curious how you are actually testing for these things. I get my thyroid checked but it from a conventional doc, and I hear those are not very accurate. I've been experimenting around the same time, with around 3 years of raw veg before that. I experienced alot of really negative symptoms you describe when I first attempted a 100% raw primal type diet and had little access to animal fats and butter etc..was doing mainly fish which is why I asked. I have alot of skepticism with all this stuff. I came into VLC again this time around with major adrenal type symptoms and sleep, and while i'm sure it is not completely resolved, I still seem to be on the upside of the hill at the very least. :/
My problem with Stone is he has so little personal experience that he's equally bad to all the fruitarian upstart gurus in not really knowing the end results. I mean I have other stoo but that suffices. I was really strutting my 100 VLC temp a few months back but after a few weird responses from some wintery handshakes I took my temp this week and it was down in the 97s FWIW. Ive been trying (cooked) starches myself here and there so yeah, i'm genuinely interested in this stuff and interested in long term health and yeah getting the most bang for my buck in workouts and other 'superficial' things. As I've said on this forum before i've had pretty reverse effects in regards to positives and negatives commonly related to VLC diets, so its all interesting to me how this shit works out or not for people. I definitely do not think 'carbohydrates' are bad. I do tend to think there is a reason that traditional peoples choose starch over fruits (of which most modern varieties may cause problems in excess), and it ain't taste or 'addictions'. :)
do you read Lyle McDonalds stuff? there must be a more reliable source other than 180.
How were these supposed to be directed at you please explain?If they're not related at all to anything I wrote, that's fine. As for how these might be related to something I wrote, did you notice that I wrote that squashes may not be truly "Paleo" (depending on one's definition of the term--and I don't consider that a make-or-break factor in determining what to eat, just one thing among many to consider) and that I shared the fact that they do contain antinutrients (though I mentioned that those can also be considered antioxidants or phytonutrients and I didn't say that no one shouldn't eat them just because of either of these points)? The fact that winter squashes may not be considered Paleo by some definitions is not the main reason I don't eat them any more. I was just wondering if perhaps you or Stas86 got that misimpression (and if anyone did, the explanations in my signature may help clear up that misunderstanding)?
...and the fact that ANYONE has any concern that a squash is not paleo is ( only IMO ) kinda silly ( -X )
I just can't believe that some people always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates.Since you quoted that, perhaps you (or Stas86) can enlighten me as to who these "some people" are who "always try to find something bad about a plant food that contains carbohydrates"? I love plant carbs and I'm currently experimenting with them, hoping to find some I can handle beyond small amounts of berries and other occasional fruits, so I know that can't be me, and I haven't noticed anyone else doing that here, so the comment raises the question of who it's supposed to be describing. The only folks I've ever noticed doing that were some at the ZIOH forum, a former member here who got banned and Katelyn, another member here who hasn't been active here in a while. It would be helpful if these impersonal pronouns could be clarified into specific people, so we know who is being discussed. When they come shortly after posts that discuss related topics, they may naturally give the impression that they might somehow be related to the earlier posts.
People will try to find something bad about ANY food have you noticed that,....I haven't noticed anyone here doing that lately. Did you notice anyone here doing that or are you referring to someone outside the forum?
Also, this is a raw Paleo forum, so presumably none of us would be here if the question of whether or not any food is "Paleo" in the metabolic/biological sense were completely silly, right? You're comment seems rather puzzling in the context of a raw Paleo forum. Perhaps you could explain it and what about the RPD and this forum attracted you?
Plus you wrote:.......I haven't noticed anyone here doing that lately. Did you notice anyone here doing that or are you referring to someone outside the forum?
So it wasn't exactly clear whether your comments were in any way related to anything I wrote or not or who these "some people" and "people" are. I was hoping you'd help clarify this. If none of your comments relate to anything I wrote, that's fine and if some do, that's also fine. I don't take it personally and we can take it from there. I just didn't want to make the mistake of assuming that any of them are related if they're not, that's all. I'm not angry or trying to criticize or tell you what to do or anything like that, just seeking to understand and trying to do so in as polite and constructive a manner as possible. I don't always succeed at that, but I try.
I like to pretend I posses magic powers or that I am a secret agent on a mission to make my days exciting sometimes, whatever rocks your boat.
Have you seen 'The Beach'?
No I haven't...is it good? ...I usually watch sci-fi films (fantasy sometimes) or cartoons.
could you expand please on how Squashes(or specific varieties?) aren't paleo?
Been a while since I watched it, but I remember it being good. It's about an island with a hidden beach in the middle where some people live off of the land.
Yes, but you'd have to eat a lot of fruit to supply energy. IMO that wouldn't be good for you, it's better to use fat. You would probably experience big carb crashes eating that much.
If I had just followed my appetite when starting, I would have stopped at about half the food my body needed to exercise.
I found when starting out, it was very easy to feel full, undereat and then hit starvation mode not wanting food and being too weak to do anything.
These are some of the problems I have with the idea of following instincts. We've experienced different tastes and different types of food since birth so while it's worth listening to instincts they can lead you astray.
I just peel them throw them in the chopper and mix with my raw meat/fish or eggs meals. Delicious and so easy to digest!
I'm just saying what has happened to me over the past two years since going on the low carb/zero carb/all carnivore diet. Tried eating more fat, less protein and didn't work. Tried eating 5 pounds of meat/fish to get enough calories in and that did not work either. Trust me, I have though about every single possible correction to make to my diet. More organs, more fat, less protein, and considered adding carbs to be the last option. I'm glad that I've finally managed to overcome the stupid idea that carbohydrates are "bad". Being a pre-medicine student and a vast proponent of a raw food "paleo" diet, I should have known better sooner before I've ruined my adrenal glands.
But he is right about a lot of things such as low carb causing problems and other things. I was an elite ice hockey player and a boxer and I love being active, and I made a big mistake thinking that I was eating the prefect diet of our ancestors full of meat and fat while thinking that carbs are "bad" and that they're not essential. They may not be essential in an anatomy/physiology book, but as I've come to find out, they are essential for some individuals in order to stay healthy.
But someone sitting on their laptop looking at numbers and ratios and saying they are paleo because they eat this and don't eat that and don't shave their balls is just funny really to me.
80% decrease in testosterone, elevated thyroid antibodies, insomnia, racing mind, boundless energy, poor recovery from weight training sessions, sudden increase of energy in the evening etc. I can't deny how good it feels to be zero carb, I would probably continue to stay do it since i love meat, organs, fatty fish, shellfish. However, my thyroid is suffering, testosterone nearly non-existent, but the thing that made me realize that I'm really going to need a few carbs was the insomnia.
Acceptable level of carbs? Depends on the individual and how active they are. For me, 1 Acorn squash and 1 Butternut squash solved my insomnia instantly and I could finally lift heavier weights in the gym just like before. Carb wise, I would say that's equivalent to about 3 sweet potatoes a day which would be about 100 carbs at the most. I'm not a big fan of too many carbohydrates and i would not eat cooked starch because I prefer to eat everything raw.
By fatty meat I meant to say that I my diet was structured around grass-fed lamb chops, wild-caught salmon/mackerel and all other fish, oysters/clams, fattiest cuts of grass fed beef such as porterhouse steaks, liver, organic chicken, eggs, and sometimes grass fed raw butter. I've tried eating high fat/high protein high fat/moderate protein high fat/low protein and after 2 years I've decided, my body decided that it just isn't going to work ;-)
I'm just saying what has happened to me over the past two years since going on the low carb/zero carb/all carnivore diet. Tried eating more fat, less protein and didn't work. Tried eating 5 pounds of meat/fish to get enough calories in and that did not work either. Trust me, I have though about every single possible correction to make to my diet. More organs, more fat, less protein, and considered adding carbs to be the last option. I'm glad that I've finally managed to overcome the stupid idea that carbohydrates are "bad". Being a pre-medicine student and a vast proponent of a raw food "paleo" diet, I should have known better sooner before I've ruined my adrenal glands.
So they are not so ancient a plant, they are NEW plant, ohhh nooooo, ruuuuun, freak plant! >D WHO....THE FUCK....CARES....IF....IT.....WORKS....EAT....IT!!!!!!!
Hi,
A big thank you to everyone for getting involved in this thread as I never knew it would generate so much thought and i've taken a lot out of it to help me on my diet.
One very helpful post for me was from stas86 when he talked about his knowing that he needed some carbs back in when he got bad insomnia, racing mind, poor recovery etc as this is exactly what happens to me. I've tried zero carb a number of times as I strongly believe in it but it just woiuldn't work for me either and i'm now at the stage where I need my deep sleep back and my body to relax more whilst I train for my event. So, looks like i'm going to be trying out butternut squash as per stas' approach, celeriac as per Francois' post and getting sufficient carbs in from other raw veg options (too much fruit gives me a racing mind also) and sweet potatoes. For now, i'm done with measuring ratios and levels of carbs etc and instead will just be eating what I want to eat as long as its raw and should be good for me. As Francois mentioned in another post, I dont think our ancestors thought too much about quantities of fat, protein & carbs so think i'll take their approach for a bit...... I feel less stressed just writing that ha ha :D
I'm glad that I could help out because its pretty obvious that I'm not the only who has had these problems. It's a relief for me as well to know that I'm not the only one who experiences these issues when completely cutting out carbs. The funny thing is that I don't crave the carbohydrates at all, but the insomnia and the other issues are just unbearable. Quality of life is more important than trying to follow some kind of strict belief which doesn't always suit every single individual. Come on people, we're already eating as healthy as we can by eating good quality raw animal foods and I don't think that a few carbs from root veggies or fruits have ever killed anyone. I hope that didn't sound too biased towards eating the squashes but I after trying all of the other root vegetables, I found them to suit me the best. Carrots, parsnips, and plantains are also delicious but not as nutritious as the squash. Fruits, other than plantains don't seem to work as well when it comes to carbs for me, perhaps because of the fructose which is metabolized differently. However, stressing about these silly trivial things is going to do far more harm than eating any kind of carbohydrates.
Another quote I liked and feel deserved a quote was from Yuli.
I have to agree here as just because something was not available (as far as we know) back in paleo times doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for us and I know that once I try the squash, if it works for me and makes me feel good,strong and healthy (whilst "facilitating corpse like sleep" ;D) along with the raw meat, fat and organs i'll be eating then i'll keep it on the menu.
Sounds like a wise plan to me bro... The corpse like sleep definitely beats the benefits of eating any kind of meat or organs :-) Maybe:-) Sounds
Thanks again. O0
By the way, can anyone shed light on the starches in squash?Bro you may be analyzing things too much...go to www.nutritiondata.com type in squash, choose the kind you want and analyze all of your vitamins, minerals, carbs, fructose, starch, fattys acids, etc. 1 pound of butternut squash has about 54 grams of carbs and is full of other vitamins and minerals
The nutritional info says about 12g carb/100g. About 2 from sugars, about 2 fibre. No figure for starch, so I guess this is the difference about 8g/100g. Maybe they don't measure this separately?
It doesn't say how much starch is in there, that's the point.Subtract the fructose content and you'll get the starch content
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2647/2
I experimented with baked squash when I was pre diabetic, I had mixed results. My sugars wouldn't spike as much as it did with grains but I still had trouble with carbs in general.You mentioned that you have BAKED the squash... that means that you've cooked it, some squash is high on the GI so of course if you ate it cooked it spiked your blood glucose. Have it raw next time if you can digest it and I'm pretty sure that it won't be as bad
Right now my main carb is coconut and lemon water, although I have had a few berry's without any issues, it seems my diabetes has been cured but I still want to play it safe by waiting a little longer to add more carbs.
Some fruit and veg were developed from fairly inedible toxic plants e.g. nightshades. I can't say they give me noticable problems, but I feel better leaving them out.
I don't have evidence that any of these are bad, and I'm not really going to dig too deep looking for a definitive answer, but I feel for myself that 'paleo' fruit and veg is a safe bet...and that while we don't know scientific truth some reasoning about it can help.
For example, melons are not too far from African native plants, and they feel good in my stomach, seem 'neutral' feeling after I eat them.
Can't really rule out the power of the mind, but I feel a lot better about it than say tomatoes.
I'm glad that I could help out because its pretty obvious that I'm not the only who has had these problems. It's a relief for me as well to know that I'm not the only one who experiences these issues when completely cutting out carbs.You and me both mate.
The funny thing is that I don't crave the carbohydrates at all, but the insomnia and the other issues are just unbearable. Quality of life is more important than trying to follow some kind of strict belief which doesn't always suit every single individual. Come on people, we're already eating as healthy as we can by eating good quality raw animal foods and I don't think that a few carbs from root veggies or fruits have ever killed anyone. I hope that didn't sound too biased towards eating the squashes but I after trying all of the other root vegetables, I found them to suit me the best. Carrots, parsnips, and plantains are also delicious but not as nutritious as the squash. Fruits, other than plantains don't seem to work as well when it comes to carbs for me, perhaps because of the fructose which is metabolized differently. However, stressing about these silly trivial things is going to do far more harm than eating any kind of carbohydrates.
You mentioned that you have BAKED the squash... that means that you've cooked it, some squash is high on the GI so of course if you ate it cooked it spiked your blood glucose. Have it raw next time if you can digest it and I'm pretty sure that it won't be as badI was eatting raw summer squash back when I was struggling with blood sugar issues, but at the time my digestion was so impaired that raw plant foods would pass through me undigested. I was so malnourished because cook meat made me feel sick as well, so I was attempting to get my daily vittles from veggies and it wasn't working at all. I believe that squash can be good for people who aren't so damaged, but I am not ready to risk it just yet based on my past issues.
I was eatting raw summer squash back when I was struggling with blood sugar issues, but at the time my digestion was so impaired that raw plant foods would pass through me undigested. I was so malnourished because cook meat made me feel sick as well, so I was attempting to get my daily vittles from veggies and it wasn't working at all. I believe that squash can be good for people who aren't so damaged, but I am not ready to risk it just yet based on my past issues.
( in a nut shell) I ....................
PaleoPhil you are over-thinking or over-analyzing my comment I think, it was just a genuine opinion from I was in no way describing you of describing the people of the forum as a whole.Call it what you wish, Yuli, I'd just like to understand what you and Stas86 are talking about, if that's OK. Please don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to be critical or to tell anyone what to do. Instead, I'm trying to follow a practice of seeking first to understand before seeking to be understood. If that's over-analyzing then so be it. It's a practice that has served me well in the past. In this vein it would help me understand what you wrote if I knew what it was in reference to. If you don't wish to discuss it, that's fine too. I'm very easy going.
I never thought about why you don't eat squashes, obviously though cause they don't work for you which is fine! I know your moto is you are not a paleo re-en-actor so obviously I don't think you have the hangup of squashes not being paleo.Thanks for the reminder about the Paleo re-enactor term. I had forgotten about that one and it's probably more understandable than the "utopian emulator" phrase I had in my avatar caption. :)
Hey Phil could you expand please on how Squashes(or specific varieties?) aren't paleo? Cheers.I didn't say they were not Paleo, Miles (I wrote that they "may not be truly "Paleo," mentioned that there is disagreement on what "Paleo" means and wrote that just because squashes contain antinutrients "doesn't necessarily mean that no one should ever eat them nowadays"), and I may explain more about that at some point, but first I'd like to seek to understand (as I mentioned above).
In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. After being on a all meat and eggs diet for 6 months, I've had a tremendous decline in performance in the gym and have basically killed my adrenals. I've finally managed to overcome my carb phobia and about a three weeks ago I've started to add carbs back into my diet. I've tried plantains, bananas, and other fruits, carrots, parsnips as well as sweet potatoes. None of these suited me until I've finally found the super delicious squash. No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. Ever since I have added these to my diet, I have seen tremendous improvements in my health. Better sleep, exercise performance etc.
That's one thing that causes me to question the pro-cooking dogma. If cooking veggies like parsnips and broccoli flowerettes is so natural and essential and we have adapted to it so well, why do they taste better to me raw?
Couldn't the amylase in saliva be for glycogen in liver? And that's a complex carb.
But how many could you eat raw? And how many could you eat cooked?I can eat at least three raw and probably more. My guess would be that I could eat more cooked than raw, but I don't know and I haven't liked the taste of any cooked ones I've tried, so I wouldn't care to unless someone cooked them in a way I found tasty and I probably couldn't be bothered to cook them myself. Why do you ask?
I can eat at least three raw and probably more. My guess would be that I could eat more cooked than raw, but I don't know and I haven't liked the taste of any cooked ones I've tried, so I wouldn't care to unless someone cooked them in a way I found tasty and I probably couldn't be bothered to cook them myself. Why do you ask?
Do you think your parsnips could be a different type that are more edible raw?No. So do you continue to cook your parsnips or was that just an experiment? What temp was it? Did you add anything to them before or after cooking?
No. So do you continue to cook your parsnips or was that just an experiment? What temp was it? Did you add anything to them before or after cooking?
Ox liver is like 10g Glycogen/100gsHow do you know that?
Raw butternut squash is definitely a no-go for me -v (as always, YMMV). Even soaked and blenderized I found it tough, bad-tasting and it gave me indigestion and nausea and dried out my mouth.
A month or so ago I tried raw parsnips and found that I liked them and they've gone on my regular shopping list. The more I eat them it seems like the more I love them. It combines two of my favorite flavors--sweetness and the mustard/radish spiciness of the crucifers (though it's not a crucifer itself). Yuli put it well--"spicy sweetness". To me there's no comparison--raw parsnips beats raw butternut squash by a mile. I find soaked sweet potato to also be superior to raw butternut squash. Once again it's interesting the wide variation between different individual's responses to the same foods. What works for me is not necessarily going to work for others and vice-versa.
Raw parsnips taste awesome... I've been eating a lot of them lately as they go along very well with all kinds of meats and seafood.
I was a little surprised that I liked the raw parsnips so much because I had always disliked my mother's parsnips. I realize now that the problem was she always boiled them to death to make a mashed-potato alternative, which made them rather bitter. I shouldn't have been surprised, really, because my mother also used to boil broccoli to death so that it had a gross texture and was bland and slightly bitter. One day I tried a raw broccoli flowerette before she could boil it and was surprised to find that it tasted sweet and good. I asked her if we could have it raw sometimes and she started putting broccoli flowerettes in the raw salads (the stalks were too tough and lacking in flavor for us, but I later learned an Asian trick of angled thin-slicing of the stalks and lightly steaming or stir-frying them to make them easier to chew and digest, though I know that's out here and when markets started selling broccoli heads without the stalks years ago I started buying those instead of dealing with the stalks).
That's one thing that causes me to question the pro-cooking dogma. If cooking veggies like parsnips and broccoli flowerettes is so natural and essential and we have adapted to it so well, why do they taste better to me raw?
I like the mustard/radish taste of daikon too, but found that I can't eat a whole small daikon without getting stomach upset, whereas I can eat multiple parsnips with no problems, so it's nice to find something that gives me a similar taste sensation without any unwanted side effects.
Well I tried eating some raw a while ago, didn't like the taste and couldn't eat much of even one. I then cooked them and ate the whole bag full, they were really tasty. I put them full on full power in the oven, for just long enough to soften them up only a bit, did it by feel and it only took 10 mins or something I think. I peeled off the skin which was dry and crispy. The inside was only slightly soft, and still had the good strong parsnip taste, not like when people cook things to death, all I had done was soften it up no more.On second thought, possibly. I was thinking you meant were my parsnips a different variety, but now I wonder--were the parsnips you bought supermarket parsnips? I bought some supermarket parsnips for the first time and find that they are not as sweet and more fibrous than the organic parsnips I usually buy. I can only eat about 1/2 of one raw before I get an unpleasant full feeling in my stomach.
Do you think your parsnips could be a different type that are more edible raw?