Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Exercise / Bodybuilding => Topic started by: cherimoya_kid on April 26, 2011, 10:16:34 pm
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Hi folks,
I've had plenty of experience with exercise and martial arts, but have never bothered to do any amount of weight-lifting.
I knew a guy from the old rawpaleo yahoo group who had been trying a new method for a while.
He said he would lift a very heavy weight (like in a military press, or bench press) to maximum extension, and then just hold it there for several minutes. He said that keeping the muscles still encourages cross connections between muscle fibers, which would increase strength as much or more than actually moving the weight up/down. Any thoughts? He said this wouldn't increase bulk, but it would increase strength.
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Maybe the idea has some merit, but I can only say that I have had good results from doing a lot of reps and a lot of sets so far.
I'd say that's better for beginners as you can control what you're doing without worrying about injuries from super heavy weights etc.
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static holds in holds in the position of maximum contraction for that particular exercise have some value. Lift a weight haevy enough to hit failure at the 8-10th rep then hold as long as possible than lower as slowly as possible.
When lifting a weight internal muscular friction reduces your strenght by ~20%(if fresh) that is why you can hold a weight after you can no longer lift it because there is no friction without movement. The same friction increases your strenght by ~20% when lowering the weight, so you can lower the weight under control after you can no longer hold it. This means that doing a static hold after you've hit failure stresses the muscle harder and thus creates a stronger stimulus for growt, however it also stresses your recovery system more so allow enough time to recover. Doing an extra, slow, controlled negative (after someones helps you lift the weight) stresses the muscle even more but again also requires longer recovery time.
Any exercise that increases strenght eventually also increases bulk. A muscle produces force in relation to its cross section. Strength does initially increasy without adding bulk because your neuromuscular coördination and skill increase. Meaning that you can use more of the available muscle fibers at once. After that initial strength increase the muscle must grow bigger which happens very sudden. After that you strength goes up again because you are again improving your neuromuscular coordination of the newly gained muscular mass.
Plotting both bulk and strength would look like this. A stair like graph for the bulk as your mass grows very sudden. After each mass increase strength increases rapidly at first and than slows down until a new size increase allows additional strength increases.
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Well, I've been toying around with this recently, and it seems to be working.
I think the goal of increasing strength without increasing size is ideal, because then you don't have to eat extra food to keep your muscles big and strong. I don't want to spend any more money or time on eating than I have to.
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HIT, might be you can help me to solve the question: from all the sources I learned that HIT session includes whole body training practically nonstop (total around 15 min), then one must have a good long recovery time till next session (5-10 days). I could not find why it was impossible to split like in normal weight training? Let's say you do legs on Monday and chest on Friday. I use some mix: like normal squats till max weight (for this given day) then I do slow leg press till failure. Or I do rather slow deadlifts. The same with chest: normal free weight push-up, then one set of press in machine to failure. I have listened to Dr. Doug on u-tube, he looks OK, but not more than OK. He makes 4 different exercises for upper body and just leg press for lower body. And for sure leg press is far away from real squats in all senses. What is yr opinion?
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Hi folks,
I've had plenty of experience with exercise and martial arts, but have never bothered to do any amount of weight-lifting.
I knew a guy from the old rawpaleo yahoo group who had been trying a new method for a while.
He said he would lift a very heavy weight (like in a military press, or bench press) to maximum extension, and then just hold it there for several minutes. He said that keeping the muscles still encourages cross connections between muscle fibers, which would increase strength as much or more than actually moving the weight up/down. Any thoughts? He said this wouldn't increase bulk, but it would increase strength.
No offense. But, that sounds like a crock of shit. That's not how to gain strength. If you want to gain weight/strength increase your weights and lower your reps (3-4 sets).
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No offense. But, that sounds like a crock of shit. That's not how to gain strength. If you want to gain weight/strength increase your weights and lower your reps (3-4 sets).
ROFL Meanwhile, in the real world, this is actually working quite well for me.
When I started, I could hang in a pullup position (with elbows at a 90-degree angle) for about 10 seconds. Now I can do about 90 seconds. I've been doing it once daily for about 4 months. I'd call that a strength increase. I also test it by doing pullups to failure every few weeks. when I started I could do maybe 1 pullup. Now I'm up to probably 10 or so.
The same thing is happening with handstand pushups. Once daily, I get into handstand position, then lower myself until the top of my head almost touches the floor. When I started 4 months ago, I could hold it for maybe 4 seconds. Now I can hold it for about 20 seconds.
It sure looks to me like my strength is increasing just fine, and with much less risk of joint damage. Also, my muscle mass has barely increased at all. I've gained maybe 3 pounds of muscle, total, and very little size. I like that, because I don't want my strength to be dependent on eating a bunch of food to keep my muscles big.
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Recently I've been learning about Himalayan crystal salt (if you're not using this, you're severely missing out!). Based on an understanding of the composition of our body (almost entirely water and minerals) I've come to the conclusion that you don't need to "eat large amounts of food" like is stated everywhere when it comes to maintaining body mass.
I've yet to fully test this as I'm still a fair noob, but from what I gather what truly determines overall health, period, is your body's water level, its water quality, its mineral level and its mineral quality. Behind every process you do, every single one, is a water molecule. Within every one of your cells is a concentration of salt water (84 minerals) and its movement within your body is pretty much exclusively what gives us our energy and our power to live. Everything else we take in simply either provides building blocks (like fat, protein, vitamins, hormones etc) or is garbage.
Ensuring you eat clean foods, regularly supplement generously with Himalayan crystal salt (all 84 required body elements combined into a perfectly charged crystal structure) and drink lots of high quality water, things should work out just fine. That's even if your fat, protein and carb levels and intakes aren't ideal. Its truly minerals and water, the buzzing chemical electricity of the sea that matters far above all else.
With todays food, even if its high quality, a lot of the minerals can be too large, too uncharged (uses your own bodies life force to power them up to be usable, unlike the crystal salt, which creates an energy deficient, not a gain) or of the wrong type for us to even use them. The most they can do is uselessly circulate in our blood. The proper type of minerals found in this salt have been compressed into such a tiny structure that each and every one of those 84 elements, when broken apart by your body, can go directly into every cell and every part of your body, providing the absolute perfect substance.
Oh and as a side note, since starting to give it to my ferrets four days ago (also when I started), they've been twice as playful as usual, and with twice the intensity! Its also self sustained a lot now, whereas before I had to be the third party keeping the...Party, going. Mind you, also, that this is also, STILL, after a year of them eating only different types of raw meats, and eggs, with bone and organs. Organic, as well. So even with such a high quality diet for so long, I've already witnessed a massive change.
I feel it greatly within myself, too. :) I feel better in every way. I'm convinced high quality water (this includes foods, which are mostly all water!) and minerals (and a combination of the two you let sit and charge up called Sole) is the absolute key to gaining strength, mass, health, vitality! Its our very core, and we're pretty much entirely that core.
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ROFL Meanwhile, in the real world, this is actually working quite well for me.
When I started, I could hang in a pullup position (with elbows at a 90-degree angle) for about 10 seconds. Now I can do about 90 seconds. I've been doing it once daily for about 4 months. I'd call that a strength increase. I also test it by doing pullups to failure every few weeks. when I started I could do maybe 1 pullup. Now I'm up to probably 10 or so.
The same thing is happening with handstand pushups. Once daily, I get into handstand position, then lower myself until the top of my head almost touches the floor. When I started 4 months ago, I could hold it for maybe 4 seconds. Now I can hold it for about 20 seconds.
It sure looks to me like my strength is increasing just fine, and with much less risk of joint damage. Also, my muscle mass has barely increased at all. I've gained maybe 3 pounds of muscle, total, and very little size. I like that, because I don't want my strength to be dependent on eating a bunch of food to keep my muscles big.
There is truth in both cases, tbh. Static holds will make you strong, but they will only make you so strong before you will start to require concentric and eccentric lifts again. Static holds might take your strength to a point that impresses you, allowing you to do bodyweight exercises, but if you are wanting to lift multiple times your bodyweight, or reach beyond your 'newb' gains, you will need to do something traditional such as low rep training.
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When I stopped talking out of my ass and actually tried weight lifting I was really surprised with how effective it was at enhancing my physical ability. I thought that since I did lots of hard yoga and kickboxing style activities that I didn't need to weightlift and that kind of thing just makes you muscle bound and slow.
All that I found was that you get a little tight after some heavy lifting but you really notice your strength gains at the start when things that used to be heavy to you are suddenly no problem at all to lift.
I only eat as much as I want to eat, I figure my body is smart enough to tell me to eat if it needs some food so i dont stress out about my calories or whatever so I dont really feel like that is an issue.
I used to be one of those 'functional strength' talking people since i did 'functional styled exercise', but then I thought i would test out Hit_it_raw's theories on strength where basicly the size of your muscle is a pretty good indication of its strength. And my observation was I started lifting weights, My muscles got bigger, and I got stronger.
I think the guys who go to the gym, lift incorrectly (your joint damage), only work their chest and biceps, and then go home and eat pizza and drink whey powder muscle max stuff and get weird fat/water retention problems and look all bloated give weightlifting a bad image. If you're eating good food and lifting correctly you should only see benefits.
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I think the guys who go to the gym, lift incorrectly (your joint damage), only work their chest and biceps, and then go home and eat pizza and drink whey powder muscle max stuff and get weird fat/water retention problems and look all bloated give weightlifting a bad image. If you're eating good food and lifting correctly you should only see benefits.
I definitely agree that diet makes a big difference when it comes to joint health, as does proper form, a la Esther Gokhale. I definitely think that reducing dairy consumption, especially low-fat dairy, makes a big difference in joint health.
However, if you want your joints to still be in good shape when you're 80 or 90, I think static holds are probably the safest bet.
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I think if you want to keep your full range of motion when you are 80 or 90, you will at least need to do full range of motion resistance exercise.
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What kind of weight are you talking when you think it is going to cause joint damage? Like, 40lbs on a bicep curl is going to destroy your elbows?
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I think if you want to keep your full range of motion when you are 80 or 90, you will at least need to do full range of motion resistance exercise.
Why does there have to be resistance? You think all these yogis in their 80s and 90s who have excellent range-of-motion lift weights throughout their whole range-of-motion?
Think again.
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What kind of weight are you talking when you think it is going to cause joint damage? Like, 40lbs on a bicep curl is going to destroy your elbows?
A few dozen reps, a few times a week, for 50 or 60 years? I don't think it would help, put it that way.
Some people are certainly more susceptible that others, certainly...
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Well I dont know about you, but the observations about my own body that I have made are that if i stress my body in a sensible way, it adapts and then becomes more able than it was before. This applies to more than just muscle growth. When you bear weight your bones become stronger. When you stress your ability to be patient, you develop more patience. Start taking cold showers and your body becomes more able at dealing with the cold. Go up a mountain and your body adapts to the lack of oxygen and your body becomes more able.
There is a difference between knowing your body and sensibly stressing it, and loading up 700lbs and throwing your back out.
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Well I dont know about you, but the observations about my own body that I have made are that if i stress my body in a sensible way, it adapts and then becomes more able than it was before. This applies to more than just muscle growth. When you bear weight your bones become stronger. When you stress your ability to be patient, you develop more patience. Start taking cold showers and your body becomes more able at dealing with the cold. Go up a mountain and your body adapts to the lack of oxygen and your body becomes more able.
There is a difference between knowing your body and sensibly stressing it, and loading up 700lbs and throwing your back out.
Agreed. You are 100% right about all of that, I couldn't agree more.
However, completely separate from all that, is the simple process of aging. Eventually, for many people, aging is going to make their joints more fragile and prone to overuse injuries. It's important to be aware of that.
My point is that static holds will let you maintain your exercise program much longer than moving against resistance.
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Eventually, for many people, aging is going to make their joints more fragile and prone to overuse injuries. It's important to be aware of that.
My point is that static holds will let you maintain your exercise program much longer than moving against resistance.
An interesting point. Is it a well-proven point scientifically?
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An interesting point. Is it a well-proven point scientifically?
Nobody is going to bother doing a controlled, double-blind study on this. However, the fact that people's cartilage tends to just wear out over time is a big problem, and I would guess that resistance exercises through the range of motion would speed that process up, when someone is quite old. Your body just doesn't recover very quickly beyond a certain age.
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I know the man (56 yo) who started to train about 10 ya form the state of hardly moving bcs of the multiple problems in the joints and the spine. He's progressed to 180 kg squats, high repetition, several sets and other Olympic weight pushing. Due to persistence in his diet, fasting, exercises he is now beyond all CW limits. Thus he is living prove that the joints are renewable tissue and high load on them is very profitable together with other healthy habits.
I have his pics and even his video for weight lifting somewhere but I do not know how to attach them here.
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I know the man (56 yo) who started to train about 10 ya form the state of hardly moving bcs of the multiple problems in the joints and the spine. He's progressed to 180 kg squats, high repetition, several sets and other Olympic weight pushing. Due to persistence in his diet, fasting, exercises he is now beyond all CW limits. Thus he is living prove that the joints are renewable tissue and high load on them is very profitable together with other healthy habits.
I have his pics and even his video for weight lifting somewhere but I do not know how to attach them here.
That's great, but no one has yet proven that moving against resistance is somehow more protective of joint health than static holds combined with full range movement without resistance.
In fact, I suspect the opposite is true.
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I dont think it is the exercise that is protective. Its when your body goes 'oh snappingducks, this area of the body is under stress, if we don't do something about it, it may become damaged' And then your body will attempt to make that area of your body better.
Like weightlifting temporarily damages your muscle, and then when it repairs it comes back stronger.
Now if you were eating cupcakes and drinking chocolate sauce as meals, I could see you running into problems, but if you are a healthy eater and giving your body everything that it needs to repair itself (nutrition and rest) then you will come out ahead.
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Hi folks,
I've had plenty of experience with exercise and martial arts, but have never bothered to do any amount of weight-lifting.
I knew a guy from the old rawpaleo yahoo group who had been trying a new method for a while.
He said he would lift a very heavy weight (like in a military press, or bench press) to maximum extension, and then just hold it there for several minutes. He said that keeping the muscles still encourages cross connections between muscle fibers, which would increase strength as much or more than actually moving the weight up/down. Any thoughts? He said this wouldn't increase bulk, but it would increase strength.
If you can hold the weight for couple of mins, it's not heavy. Your mind gives up before your muscles. In order to get stronger, you need to work on your CNS (Central nervous system). Pick up a heavy weight for a benchpress for example, that you'll only be able to do anywhere between 1-3 reps. (Good reps) *do not forget to always have a spot*
That's how you build strenght- you build your CNS first.
Hope that helps!
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Make sure you eat enough protein/carbs many times throughout the day.
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If you can hold the weight for couple of mins, it's not heavy. Your mind gives up before your muscles. In order to get stronger, you need to work on your CNS (Central nervous system). Pick up a heavy weight for a benchpress for example, that you'll only be able to do anywhere between 1-3 reps. (Good reps) *do not forget to always have a spot*
That's how you build strenght- you build your CNS first.
Hope that helps!
Static holds and TSC (timed static contractions) help take momentum out of the muscle and rely solely on the muscle's strength. But I agree if you can hold them for a couple of minutes then the weight is too late. You should be aiming for a one and a half to two minute window. And you have to build your CNS, in the beginning it's going to tell you to stop when it gets hard and the lactate begins to build up but eventually you'll learn your body still has more to give. Here's an article about holds and TSC.
http://baye.com/isometrics-static-holds-and-static-contraction-training/ (http://baye.com/isometrics-static-holds-and-static-contraction-training/)
In the gym I complete one set to absolute positive failure in the 2 minute window. Then I move the weight up, wait 10 seconds, and move the exercise into full or 3/4 max contraction (depending on the exercise) and hold it there for as long as I can to exhaust the static and inroad the muscle's strength further. When I can no longer hold it I try to move it back slowly to exhaust the negative (the strongest portion of the exercise). By the time that is done, I'm out of breath, sometimes sweating, and cannot move the weight properly an inch due to properly exhausting the muscle.
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I've also read that static holds with heavy weights are good for building tendon strength.
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When I stopped talking out of my ass and actually tried weight lifting I was really surprised with how effective it was at enhancing my physical ability. I thought that since I did lots of hard yoga and kickboxing style activities that I didn't need to weightlift and that kind of thing just makes you muscle bound and slow.
All that I found was that you get a little tight after some heavy lifting but you really notice your strength gains at the start when things that used to be heavy to you are suddenly no problem at all to lift.
I only eat as much as I want to eat, I figure my body is smart enough to tell me to eat if it needs some food so i dont stress out about my calories or whatever so I dont really feel like that is an issue.
I used to be one of those 'functional strength' talking people since i did 'functional styled exercise', but then I thought i would test out Hit_it_raw's theories on strength where basicly the size of your muscle is a pretty good indication of its strength. And my observation was I started lifting weights, My muscles got bigger, and I got stronger.
I think the guys who go to the gym, lift incorrectly (your joint damage), only work their chest and biceps, and then go home and eat pizza and drink whey powder muscle max stuff and get weird fat/water retention problems and look all bloated give weightlifting a bad image. If you're eating good food and lifting correctly you should only see benefits.
nice to hear someone else coming from the bodyweight excercise/ functional strength perspective going into weightlifting,
iv only been doingb odywieght stuff for about 2 months now and its great. But I feel iv hit a plateau in my strength. I get stronger in that I do more reps of things all the time but my strength isnt increased too much which is why im starting weights very soon.
i believe that the bodywieght stuff gives me a good foundation with which to start lifting.
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When I stopped lifting random weights and started an actual 'program' (a basic 5x5 starting strength routine) I had much better results as well. I am at an intermediate level now according to http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.htm (http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.htm) so I will probably need to change things up a bit to keep on getting gains, But i pretty much just do Bench, Overhead press, Deadlifts and Squats. Takes about an hour each time, twice a week (or more if i get time/feel like it).
I really only wanted to be able to lift the 200lb guys off of me who i would be getting crushed by in grappling, and now that i can almost do that I might just stay there and work on getting more reps out of that weight. And since I have a function for the benchpress movement, does that mean that benchpressing is actually a functional strength? haha.
I also still do bodyweight exercise, because lifting heavy weights in say, a squat, is a little bit different than jumping as high as you can from a squatted position with just your body weight, and i feel that both are important.
Also, doing bodyweight things.. I used to be able to almost hold a planche, but when i started lifting, my body got heavier and made doing things like that more difficult. It took a little while to get used to doing a butterfly twist with a heavier body weight. I also lost some flexibility because the time i used to spend on yoga went into lifting, So when you get stronger, you have to work harder on other aspects of your physicality to keep everything balanced.
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Weight lifting is the best source for keep fitness of the body.Mostly young
people like the weight lifting work.It is the best solution for reduce the extra
body weight and fat.So weight lifting is a perfectible exercise....
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Here's an update:
I've gone from being able to do a static hold at half-extension in a pullup position for 5 seconds to about 90 seconds. Now I've started carrying an extra 25 pounds or so in my backpack while doing the pullup to increase the load. I've increased muscle mass by about 6 or 7 pounds in the 13 months that I've been doing this. That was unintentional.
I've been doing the same thing in handstand pushup position. I've gone from 3 seconds there to about 15 seconds. That's much slower going, but there's definitely improvement. My goal is to be able to keep doing this for many years, and increase strength the entire time, instead of doing it quickly, and then getting bored.
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So are you gonna start lifting weights or not?
Im really glad I did. Still glad I had the few months of bodyweight excercise before that though, think important to have that as a base.
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So are you gonna start lifting weights or not?
There's going to come a point where it's inescapable. I'm trying to decide if I should start with a squats machine, or just with deadlifts.
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http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jamesst2.htm (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jamesst2.htm)
this is the program im doing and I like it very much. If ur not into once a month do it more often.
Theres no reason to wait, you can just do it if u want.
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There's going to come a point where it's inescapable. I'm trying to decide if I should start with a squats machine, or just with deadlifts.
They are both important. I would never exclude one for the other. Usually best to do either of them in a workout. Don't deadlift more than once a week or you'll fry your nervous system. Regular squats are far superior and safer than squat machine. Also don't forget about military presses and a form of rows or pullovers.
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They are both important. I would never exclude one for the other. Usually best to do either of them in a workout. Don't deadlift more than once a week or you'll fry your nervous system. Regular squats are far superior and safer than squat machine. Also don't forget about military presses and a form of rows or pullovers.
I don't need military press, since I already do handstand pushup holds.
Why are the freeweight squats better than the machine?
Tell me about the rows/pullovers.
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freeweight is always better because it makes you do more natural movements.
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I don't need military press, since I already do handstand pushup holds.
Why are the freeweight squats better than the machine?
Tell me about the rows/pullovers.
Miliatry presses are quite different than hanstand pushup holds. Think power prodution.
F = m * A
P = F * V
In any static exercise there is only force, no velocity, thus no power.
The larger the range of movement the larger the muscle mass involved the more valuable the exercise. Static holds produce very limited results. Limited in force, power, and range of movement.
Balancing a heavy barbell above the mid-foot takes an incredible amount of strength and neuromuscular coördination. Much bigger systemic trigger than leg presses(or squat machine little difference other than load aplication).
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what is Balancing a heavy barbell above the mid-foot?
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Well just that.
The only way you can support a heavy barbell in a squat is to keep it in a straight line above the mid of the foot. Other wise you either fall on your ass or your face. The heavier the load the smaller the moment arm between the weight and the midfoot you can handle.
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are u talking about holding a heavy barbell mid squat?
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CK: I'm glad you built muscle with static tension, but 7 lbs in 13 months is by no means something to write home about, even at only 90 seconds a day. Doing weighted negatives like HIT_IT_RAW mentions gave me about 8 lbs of muscle in a little over 2 months with no supplementation. This is with 1-2 15 min sessions per week. 15 min of pure exhausting exercise mind you haha.
Imo any exercise is better than none, but also imo, if you're gonna do something, do it right.
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CK: I'm glad you built muscle with static tension, but 7 lbs in 13 months is by no means something to write home about, even at only 90 seconds a day. Doing weighted negatives like HIT_IT_RAW mentions gave me about 8 lbs of muscle in a little over 2 months with no supplementation. This is with 1-2 15 min sessions per week. 15 min of pure exhausting exercise mind you haha.
Imo any exercise is better than none, but also imo, if you're gonna do something, do it right.
The increase in muscle was an unwanted side effect.
I knew a massage therapist, a woman who was maybe 5'3" and 120 pounds, who had the strongest grip I've ever encountered. She did not have large forearms or large muscles anywhere, but she had an incredibly strong grip, stronger than any man's that I know. She did not need large muscles for this kind of strength. Something's going on there, that people like you are completely unaware of. While that's OK, I ask that you not go on and on with your talk of muscles while I'm trying to accomplish something different.
The way that East Asian martial artists train to have an extremely powerful grip is by gripping something (like a tennis ball) with all their force for several seconds, and then releasing. This is very similar to what I'm doing, except that I'm trying to train tendon strength in my arms/shoulders/etc. more, with less focus on my hands. Do you see?
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Please don't make assumptions about my knowledge of exercise as that is very rude and quite condescending. Sorry if I offended you by assuming you were talking about mass gains.
Now I do know and am quite aware that with muscles mass does not mean strength. I've added more strength to my lifts than my friends by working out less. strength is a skill. I'm open to accepting that static training gives better strength gains in a shorter time than Tim ferris' version outlined in the four hour body. 2 reps at 90% max weight.5 min rest in between sets. 5 sets a day as long as you don't get muscle fatigue. Any opinion or experience with that type of workout? In his book, he said someone doubled their bench press in 2 weeks. Pretty impressive imo.
I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong but as I have learned, more muscle fatigue means more size, somewhat. It's not always true. But pushing yourself and not hitting fatigue allows for less muscle growth and more Muscle memory.
I just have to add, I'm NOT meaning to be confrontational. I'm inquisitive and willing to learn. I am asking your opinion on Tim Ferris' strength training and if you've heard anything about it or experienced it. Sorry I misunderstood your post about the muscle gain.
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Please don't make assumptions about my knowledge of exercise as that is very rude and quite condescending. Sorry if I offended you by assuming you were talking about mass gains.
Now I do know and am quite aware that with muscles mass does not mean strength. I've added more strength to my lifts than my friends by working out less. strength is a skill. I'm open to accepting that static training gives better strength gains in a shorter time than Tim ferris' version outlined in the four hour body. 2 reps at 90% max weight.5 min rest in between sets. 5 sets a day as long as you don't get muscle fatigue. Any opinion or experience with that type of workout? In his book, he said someone doubled their bench press in 2 weeks. Pretty impressive imo.
I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong but as I have learned, more muscle fatigue means more size, somewhat. It's not always true. But pushing yourself and not hitting fatigue allows for less muscle growth and more Muscle memory.
I just have to add, I'm NOT meaning to be confrontational. I'm inquisitive and willing to learn. I am asking your opinion on Tim Ferris' strength training and if you've heard anything about it or experienced it. Sorry I misunderstood your post about the muscle gain.
Why do you think fast gains in strength are somehow ideal? Do you think there are no downsides to such methods, in the long run?
Tendon strength is a whole topic unto itself, and those training methods have nothing to do with increasing muscle size. There's even some good science on the topic. Take a look at the wikipedia article on "eccentric training", it's a good starting point.
These are ancient methods, with a long history in Asian martial arts and yoga.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentric_training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eccentric_training)[
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ck, what are your workouts like these days? like what do you do, how often, etc.
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Any exercise that improves strength gradually also improves large, a muscle generates power in regards to its combination area, durability does originally increase without including large because your intramuscular coordination and expertise increase....
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ck, what are your workouts like these days? like what do you do, how often, etc.
In addition to having a job that includes some manual labor, I am just doing my isometric pullups and handstand pushups, plus some yoga postures like cowface. I may start doing isometric squats soon.
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i gained about 20 pounds in less about 2 months of doing convict conditioning. Then i kind of stopped gaining weight even though my strength has increased immensly since then. Iv probably gained another 5 pounds since i got those initial 20 and this includes after I started lifting wieghts.
My weight often fluctuates +/- 6 pounds
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i gained about 20 pounds in less about 2 months of doing convict conditioning. Then i kind of stopped gaining weight even though my strength has increased immensly since then. Iv probably gained another 5 pounds since i got those initial 20 and this includes after I started lifting wieghts.
This is similar to my experience. I haven't gained muscle weight for quite a few months (after the first few months), even though I've gotten a lot stronger.
I like convict conditioning, i just think that I'd like to see some people doing isometric versions of those exercises.
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This video is proof that you don't need muscles for tremendous strength:
A one finger one arm pull up. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAkqIG2Zbn4#)
This guy, Alain Robert, does a ONE-FINGER pull-up. And his arms look totally normal, no extra muscle on them.
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bruce lee is all the proof you need.
Its my unresearched opinion that denser muscles are better. I always see these weak assholes that think theyr so strong because theyr muscles are full of water from all the creatine they take.
That being said big muscles do mean something (unless they are fake and pumped with creatine or soemthing of the sort). Although its quite rare for a person with huge muscles to be able to do anything like the one finger pullup that persons strength is in that he can probably lift much heavier objects while being worse at bodyweight excercises due to increased bodyweight.
I would personally like to achiever something in between what that one finger pullup guy is doing and strongman type strength. Probably want to lean more towards the one finger pull up guy though.
Its funny because i already look stronger than this guy but im sure im not. also notice how he has very little bodyfat, that also likely contributes to his abilities. Id be willing to bet though that he cant lift very heavy objects.
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I agree with you svrn!great post.
La vie aux bout des doigts [Patrick Edlinger] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDcaPJXQAFE#)
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Why do you think fast gains in strength are somehow ideal? Do you think there are no downsides to such methods, in the long run?
Tendon strength is a whole topic unto itself, and those training methods have nothing to do with increasing muscle size.
I wanted to learn on this and read and think for a while.
So, although eccentric trains the negative movement and can use more force, does that change the result? The result being, moving more weight overall. Granted there is less risk of injury as I understand, but strength none-the-less.
I think my first post on this thread may have thrown you off and don't take that as the topic I'm on now. I was confused earlier and now I'm not talking about gaining mass. Quite the contrary. For a while now, I've understood the two to be on opposite ends of the spectrum; when one gains muscle size, their body's energy is NOT being directed towards improving strength at all, and when one is getting stronger, muscle mass is not increasing. As the one finger pull up shows, it's tough to find the limit to strength based on mass.
My question to you is a comparison then of training the positive motion, short, weighted, bursts, that provide strength with little to no mass vs the training of negative motion, non-burst, no weights or weighted eventually(?) that also provide strength with little to no mass.
I know what you mean about tendon strength, but who's to say that the concentric version doesn't also strengthen tendons?
As I understand, any soreness (DOMS) means the muscle is wore out and this usually happens over time. When wore out and broke down it has to grow. As the wiki says on eccentric training, the idea is that you will get sore, but that will go away over time. The alternate that I propose is that with concentric, minimal reps (2 at a time) with breaks in between, doesn't create soreness, you will be able to train more often. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a gym junkie, quite the opposite, I want to be there as little and infrequently as possible. Rather the point of training more freq. is actually so you can get the necessary goal of strength to improve what you need to improve. Same as diet, if one can detox and heal in less time and with less effort, why do the longer more inefficient way?
I don't have enough experience with eccentric training to really make a conclusion that's why I'm just sharing my thoughts and seeing what you know of it. I'm only looking for the most efficient and productive exercise.
Side note: I did negative, slow, pushups. Would static be better than allowing myself to drop? Or is 'better' too vague of a term here?
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Dude, I myself am just experimenting with all this. Most of what I say is based on my limited experience, plus some martial arts training, plus internet research. My GUESS is that ANY movement, against resistance, is going to tend to cause increases in size. By increasing the speed of the movement, the resistance, and the number of reps, you are creating conditions that favor muscle size growth. That's my theory.
And as far as moving slowly goes, there are two reasons:
1. Avoiding injury. Giving yourself longer to adapt to a new stressor or a higher level of stress is going to reduce the chance of injury.
2. Avoiding boredom. If you spend too much time working out and focusing on working out, you risk getting bored and quitting.
Remember the story of the tortoise and the hare?
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Dude, I myself am just experimenting with all this. Most of what I say is based on my limited experience, plus some martial arts training, plus internet research. My GUESS is that ANY movement, against resistance, is going to tend to cause increases in size. By increasing the speed of the movement, the resistance, and the number of reps, you are creating conditions that favor muscle size growth. That's my theory.
Here are the principals that I've gathered from many different places. Increasing reps, will favor muscle growth, to a degree. There are diminishing returns. It depends on the weight being used. Many reps, little weight, doesn't do much for strength or size, as we often see women favoring and not getting anywhere year after year. Many reps medium weight may break down the muscle tissue, but it may not release HGH, which releases after a period of CONTINUAL tension on a muscle. Often people will relieve the tension before their final rep.
Increasing speed of the movement will favor strength: you are training your muscles to use more energy in a shorter amount of time, therefore building the "skill" of strength. It becomes muscle memory, your muscles know that they are meant to exert their force quickly and explosively.
Increasing resistance often favors strength: your body has to cope somehow with the added weight. If you are using less than your maximum, you aren't NEEDING to exert as much force so you never break your limit.
HOWEVER by all these principles, eccentric exercise would lean more towards muscle size rather than strength. So obviously there needs to be exceptions and amendments to each principal. Then again, these principles are based off concentric training. It would almost be... logical... for eccentric to provide the EXACT opposite reaction for each principle. And I guess that's kinda what happens?
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For the first and third principles, I don't see how isometric OR eccentric training would be different. As far as the second one goes, maybe it depends on what KIND of strength you want. You become good at what you do a lot, generally. If you practice explosive lifts, you will develop explosive power. If you practice isometric holds, you will develop the ability to hold against heavy resistance.
Maybe.
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Haha maybe...
ya I can agree with you there. I haven't done a lot of negative training. It's hard for me to get enough weight 8) haha kidding.
Seriously though, static holds bring in a new realm for me honestly. I do know for Tim ferris' muscle building protocol you hold for 10 seconds on the negative AFTER 8-10 reps that were slow and brought you to failure. That's why I figured going to muscle failure (eccentric or concentric) would build muscle. Not strength. And his muscle protocol works better than anything I've done. And I've done 5x5's and splits and all that other popular crap. I got bored like you said, It just took too much time.
ill experiment with some eccentric and see how I feel. I've been having shoulder and neck pain that could use some strengthening.
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...I'll experiment with some eccentric and see how I feel....
Let us know how it goes.
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i want a routine that will keep me strong and free of injuries without added size (i'm female :P). i judge my strength by how many pullups i can (or can't) do. the most pullups i've ever been able to do were during my high school years. i wasn't lifting then (started in college), i was just swimming and my body type was more slender (as opposed to some swimmers who are 'hulga' types :D). also, my weight hasn't changed since high school, but incorporating weight training does not help me with pull up abilities. only doing pull ups seems to help with that. so which one is strength? to me it's pull ups, so i want to get back to being able to do them.
so ck's routine is really interesting me. but how many and for how long and how often? anything i can read?
just about everyone is more knowledgeable than me when it comes to this stuff, so all input and advice welcomed!
thanks :)
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i want a routine that will keep me strong and free of injuries without added size (i'm female :P). i judge my strength by how many pullups i can (or can't) do. the most pullups i've ever been able to do were during my high school years. i wasn't lifting then (started in college), i was just swimming and my body type was more slender (as opposed to some swimmers who are 'hulga' types :D). also, my weight hasn't changed since high school, but incorporating weight training does not help me with pull up abilities. only doing pull ups seems to help with that. so which one is strength? to me it's pull ups, so i want to get back to being able to do them.
so ck's routine is really interesting me. but how many and for how long and how often? anything i can read?
I just hang at half-extension until my arms give out. I do this about every other day. I now wear about 25 pounds of extra weight, but I didn't start that until almost a year into the process.
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I just hang at half-extension until my arms give out. I do this about every other day. I now wear about 25 pounds of extra weight, but I didn't start that until almost a year into the process.
Ioanna comes back in a month: "HULGA NEED MOAR WAAIIIT"
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lol ;D
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do you consume dairy cherimoya?
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do you consume dairy cherimoya?
Fermented raw grassfed cream. I get the milk and then let it sit at room temp in a dark cupboard for a couple of days. I eat the fermented cream off the top, and discard the rest.
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perhaps you should add some more non fermented dairy and see how you feel drinking lots of it. I bet your progress would be much faster. If it doesnt work for you give it up until you find another raw dairy source and see if it works with them. Getting it from a different farmer can make all the difference.
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perhaps you should add some more non fermented dairy and see how you feel drinking lots of it. I bet your progress would be much faster. If it doesnt work for you give it up until you find another raw dairy source and see if it works with them. Getting it from a different farmer can make all the difference.
I make many poots if I eat raw unfermented dairy. ROFL
But seriously, I've experimented a lot with raw dairy, and this is the plan that seems to work for me. My producer is all grassfed, they are very serious about it. The quality of the grass makes a difference, though, I realize.
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I agree with you svrn!great post.
La vie aux bout des doigts [Patrick Edlinger] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDcaPJXQAFE#)
I love Patrick Edlinger. I think he died recently :(
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I make many poots if I eat raw unfermented dairy. ROFL
But seriously, I've experimented a lot with raw dairy, and this is the plan that seems to work for me. My producer is all grassfed, they are very serious about it. The quality of the grass makes a difference, though, I realize.
i get no farts from raw dairy. Only thing that makes me fart is raw veggies.