Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: Duke on February 04, 2012, 01:35:20 pm
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Hi everyone, I am new to the Rpd, and I am still in a transitional stage from a whole foods diet to Rpd. I do eat raw eggs, raw fish, and raw liver as a starter.
I do know that Rpd doesn't recommend supplementing and getting all the benefits from eating (diet) but I lead a stressful job that can span 75 hours weekly, and that's just my dayjob. I also don't have access to grass feed meat like most of you do. Hence I want to turn to supplementing along with the most healthy diet I can get.
I used to take raw eggs as a protein source after intense workout, but then I read on mercola.com that it would take almost upto 3 hours to assimilate the proteins in the eggs by the body, which makes me miss the 2 to 3 hrs after workout which is best to take proteins. Whey protein is apparently bio-available and can be easily absorbed after workouts, but apparently it should be natural and not an isolate. Mercola offers this type of Whey on his website so I thought I would ask if anyone of you guys who is into high intensity workouts has tried it. What are your recommendations?
For anti-stress / anti-oxidant sources, mercola.com highly Promotes COQ10 and astaxanthin which is apparently the best antioxidant out there. I have to admit the information claimed on the site is actually quite fascinating it's almost close to science fiction.
What is your verdict? Are those anti-stress / pro-workout products genuine ones?
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I'm not typically a cynic, or even a naturalist, but you say Mercola says you need to get protein within a window and that only the protein he sells works within that window?
anyway, I see no problem with trying that stuff out if you are transitioning or whatever. The more I progress, I realize that certain modern "advancements" will in fact yield results with performance or even basic stuff like making your own natural workout drinks or other PWO stuff that is more targeted. That said, I personally have seen no problems eating meats or eggs or any animal food after a workout to get some decent results without any additional crap. Whether that is the best I don't know. I typically do eat within an hour or so after working out FWIW.
As for general health supplements, there are a lot of mixed viewpoints in the larger world about these and mostly you'll just hear negatives here, so i'd say similarly, do what makes sense to you and then if you find yourself eating more of this kind of lifestyle long term and have an open mind, you'll decide what things work or don't or are needed or not.
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Kd, I didn't say mercolas protein is the only one that works. His theory is that if you drink whey protein with raw eggs it will slow the absorption and you will miss the window of two to 3 hours when your body is releasing the growth hormone which will aid in the growth of your muscle tissues. You still get benefits from eating raw eggs and meats post workout but not as quick and efficient as wig drinking the whey protein alone. At least that's what I understood. He also is against all the protein isolates products and says it damages your health.
I am not really against supplementing especially if someone doesn't have access to the best foods at all times but my concern is about the integrity of the products normally because there are a lot of people out there who are after the profits. The only supplements I have taken so far are just probiotics. As you see, I don't normally supplement but with lots of stress at work I wouldn't mind opting for an antioxidant agent.
What type of shakes do you take post workout?
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I generally havn't done much of any of that, but then again, i'm not a massive guy.
I just recently started doing some pre workout stuff (OJ/eggs) and that vibes more with how i'm eating and working out currently. I've been screwing around with pollen as well but hard to judge really. Thats why its best to just try stuff, maybe for 2-3 months. I think meat and fat (or carbs) should be fine (or excellent) after workout. You might want to look into the "Superhuman Radio" broadcasts on raw bodybuilding which has some hints at some (Primal Diet inspired) shakes and such. There should be links on this forum. I'm really not one of those folks who discounts something by its packaged-nature, but in this case I don't see whey in a package as being superior to meat. At most they might each have pros and cons. You can actually get raw whey from some farms and i've heard of some folks doing that and i've tried it but I don't think that is magic either.
My understanding is raw eggs digest like in 15 mins or less, but then again i've never read that in a credible journal. I guess if you were to buy the whey, you might as well follow his recommendations.
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I would avoid egg whites. I notice I feel a lot better when I only eat the yolks. Also, my cat would always eat the yolk, never the white.
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I used to take raw eggs as a protein source after intense workout, but then I read on mercola.com that it would take almost upto 3 hours to assimilate the proteins in the eggs by the body, which makes me miss the 2 to 3 hrs after workout which is best to take proteins.
So why don't you eat the eggs like 1-2 hours before you exercise then? By the time you're done they will be ready to assimilate.
Anyway, this pre/post workout stuff is mostly marketing tricks if you ask me. I remember reading a study comparing whey hydrolysate (extremely fast digesting and expensive) and casein (slow) for post workout, and the casein turned out to be much better utilized by the muscles.
I would avoid egg whites. I notice I feel a lot better when I only eat the yolks. Also, my cat would always eat the yolk, never the white.
I have same experience. For me the egg whites are digesting way too fast, which tells me something is wrong. Then I learned they inhibit trypsin which is necessary for protein digestion, effectively making their protein not very available when eaten raw. Depending on how many you eat at once, they may deactivate most of the enzyme.
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I don't really consider whey protein a supplement, as it is a complete food that comes from cows and is processed into a powder. It is definitely not as fresh as consuming something like raw milk or raw or even slightly cooked grass fed meat, but it still has many of it's nutrients in tact, as well as the bio-available protein and amino acids.
I use One World whey protein, which is pasture raised whey protein concentrate. As for "post workout" nutrition, i don't really know how much of a difference it would make because i haven't experimented. I think it really matters what your consuming over the course of the entire day (i.e total macronutrients). You want to make sure you're getting optimal amounts of protein and carbs because both of those things are very important in building or maintaining muscle. The rest of it depends on consistent training. You don't have to even lift heavy, just lift something that you could do at least 5 or 6 reps to that is challenging at the same time. You will know if it is somewhat challenging if you feel a burning sensation or increased heart rate obviously.
Anyway, i wouldn't be too concerned about post workout nutrition, though you might want to consume "something", just don't think about it too hard. Meal timing is all bullshit imo. (look up intermittent fasting for instance) With that said, i think whey protein is very beneficial to building muscle and getting healthy protein and amino acids in your diet. The quality of the protein is very important and i think mercola says a pretty superb product, even though it is quite pricey. If price is an issue, i would use the whey protein every other day or days when you work out.
sorry for the long post!_
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Do you think one world whey is the best out there?
Does it taste and mix well?
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I have been taking the vanilla flavor (which is made with organic ground vanilla bean, not natural flavoring and stevia extract :p) The taste is truly amazing, as far as mixing i can't complain either. If you use a blender, you definitely should not have a problem. I tried mixing 2 scoops once with some dandelion root tea in a mason jar and shaking it for a good minute or so, and there were some particles of whey still left over. To be honest, i don't mind the particles because the taste is so good even when it is not dissolved.
I want to try mixing it with some raw honey and blueberries to make a pudding type consistency similar to how some people do with colostrum powder.
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Remember that that kind of whey in jars is usually not coming from grass-fed cows - but from antibiotic and hormone riddled cows and is processed probably at high heat no?
I make my own fermented whey from grass-fed. That's they whole food and if you can do that all the better I would imagine.
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Apparently the mercola whey is made from organic grass fed cow dairy. The proteins are broken down by the bacteria and then the whey is cold pressed to get the powder. So the heat element isn't included. Also the whey isn't made of protein isolates like most of the whey products. Isolates are proteins deprived from their cofactors and this process involves heating and acid processing which will cause health problems on the long run. Another reason why the powder doesn't dissolve instantly in water for example.
That's all in theory, haven't tried it yet but one reviewer said that the chocolate flavored powder didn't dissolve instantly in water so it makes you wonder ...
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One world whey is cold processed as well. i would try mercolas, but one world whey is cheaper.
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for one world, do you use the whole scoop?
it says half a scoop is a serving (30g) and contains 25g protein, that seeems like a lot of protein for a small amount...
i been using the whole scoop, which would be 50g protein?
i really love this protein, i wish it wasnt soo expensive, i could easily consume 2 full scoops (4 servings, 100g protein) daily
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If my memory serves right, the mercola whey is 20g per scoop (I ve finally tried it) a serving consists of 2 scoops and I take 1 serving after workout which is like 3 times per week.
I think whey protein is a good supplement to add to the diet, it also improves the immune system among other things.
My advice is to use it after workouts; and take only 1 serving. That would ensure ur whey supply will not dry early.
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I've noticed that higher quality egg whites taste better than lower quality ones (and my favorite egg whites so far are duck egg whites) and Chris Masterjohn has reported on the science re: potential benefits from eating raw egg whites:
Heck, even — shudder — raw egg whites may give a glutathione boost in some people comparable to that given by raw milk!
Raw Egg White — The Trusty Sidekick?
The researchers searched over thirty publications identifying the sequences of edible plant and animal proteins and concluded that the only two types of protein in the food supply containing these unique bonds are whey proteins and egg white proteins. They noted the following:
It may also be noteworthy that from time immemorial, whey from raw milk and/or undenatured raw egg white have been administered to children and to the sick as prophylactic or therapeutic measures in folk medicine.
I have heard of a number of cases of people benefiting from including raw egg whites in their diet. It should be noted, however, that raw egg whites contain substances that inhibit digestion and decrease the availability of biotin. Some people may benefit from their apparent glutathione-boosting ability, and this may be especially important for people who cannot tolerate milk, but in others the risk of biotin deficiency or digestive troubles might outweigh this benefit. Intestinal flora produce biotin and egg yolks are loaded with it. Maintaining proper intestinal flora and eating plenty of egg yolks may allow some people to reap the benefits of raw egg whites if they do not have trouble digesting them.
The Biochemical Magic of Raw Milk and Other Raw Foods: Glutathione
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/ (http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/)
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I can see why someone on an rpd might consider supplementing things like Vit D, Magnesium and other micronutrients. Why someone following an rpd would want to supplement a maconutrient is beyond me. If you eat a reasonable amount of animal produce it's pretty much impossible to need any additional protein. And if so just eat more meat, nicer tastier, cheaper, better.
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I can see why someone on an rpd might consider supplementing things like Vit D, Magnesium and other micronutrients. Why someone following an rpd would want to supplement a maconutrient is beyond me. If you eat a reasonable amount of animal produce it's pretty much impossible to need any additional protein. And if so just eat more meat, nicer tastier, cheaper, better.
Yep.
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For many reasons, some of which are:
1) Taste; tastes good for a change
2) a source of easily absorbable proteins and amino acids
3) more effective than any other food or protein source after workouts
4) easy to prepare and takes little time too
5) excellent immune system builder / educator
6) best source of glutathione.
I supplement on high quality whey protein not more than three times a week; 1 serving only every time .
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1) Taste; tastes good for a change
To each his own but i prefer a good piece of meat over those horrible shakes!
2) a source of easily absorbable proteins and amino acids
So are eggs, meat, dairy
3) more effective than any other food or protein source after workouts
Very doubtfull. If a workout was intense enough to trigger the growth reflex your body will grow. Whey is a very fast digesting protein so maybe recovery (which comes before growth) starts a little faster. However if the body is triggered into adaptation it will as long as reasonable nutrients are provided. The adaptation is triggered by training and made possible by nutrition. Do you really doubt proteins from meat eggs etc will not provide enough nutrients for growth whereas some protein isolate will??
4) easy to prepare and takes little time too
IMO cracking an egg or just taking a piece of meat from the fridge is just as easy/fast if not faster.
5) excellent immune system builder / educator
Possibly. However I think the whole product does equally well.
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From your quote Phil,
"Intestinal flora produce biotin and egg yolks are loaded with it. Maintaining proper intestinal flora and eating plenty of egg yolks may allow some people to reap the benefits of raw egg whites if they do not have trouble digesting them."
Does the egg yolk then have enough biotin to counteract the egg whites' biotin destructive tendencies? If so, then it sounds like you gain glutathione by eating the white alone and you gain biotin eating the yolk alone (probably other things too).
One of the things I always have to ask is the difference between non-fertilized and fertilized. I just found out that my unfertilized eggs stay fresher much longer than fertilized ones. I betcha that the nutrient profile of fertilized and unfertilized is quite different.
As for FRESH RAW FERMENTED whey - I stopped giving it to my chickens. They stopped laying. I started again, they started laying again - even though they are old - at the same rate they always did. I had tried feeding them raw whole grass-fed cow meat/organs and that didn't do the trick. The whey was different than the meat for them. Makes me wonder.
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Th egg yolk doesn't have enough biotin to counter the inhibitor in the whites. It will take time to get a biotin deficiency but it's something that will happen if you don't take this into consideration. I still eat raw egg white but sometimes I eat raw yolk and cook the white. I enter change this every now and then
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Dorothy the whey these guys are talking about is a protein isolate, or is just the protein from the whey. Whey in tack is mostly lactose, some protein and some minerals and water. So your chickens were getting more than protein. Got to wonder if they'd lay with just the protein from whey protein powder?
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Does the egg yolk then have enough biotin to counteract the egg whites' biotin destructive tendencies?
It likely varies depending on whether the egg is fertilized and the condition of the person's gut and who knows what else.
If so, then it sounds like you gain glutathione by eating the white alone and you gain biotin eating the yolk alone (probably other things too).
Presumably, healthy individuals who are not too negatively impacted by the avidin would gain both by eating both. This makes evolutionary sense. If humans have been eating raw eggs in various stages of fertilization and embryonic development for millennia and benefiting, and if baby birds benefit by eating the raw egg whites they are born into, which they seem to, then it wouldn't make sense for healthy humans to be damaged by eating whole raw eggs in reasonable quantities. This brings to mind Tom Naughton's simple principle: "Let's start with one simple idea: Mother Nature isn't stupid. She didn't make human beings the only species that prefers foods that will kill us."
Some folks talk about separating the yolks out being natural, but if you've seen wild eggs you know that many of them are quite tiny. I find it hard to believe that our primate pre-human, proto-human and early human ancestors would have spent time separating the yolks from the whites of wee eggs, especially before the invention of wooden bowls and cups, and I've never witnessed that with any egg of any size in any video or write-up of hunter-gatherer peoples I've seen. If it were standard practice, then surely we'd have seen at least one example by now.
On the contrary, I have seen old-time rural American and Chinese folk portrayed in movies poking a hole in an egg and sucking out the entire raw contents, which is what Aajonus does, interestingly. When you do this with a large egg, like an ostrich egg, you can then use it as canteen, which the Bushmen in South Africa traditionally did, and some still do: Eco-friendly Bushman ostrich egg canteen (http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1994462)
As for FRESH RAW FERMENTED whey - I stopped giving it to my chickens. They stopped laying. I started again, they started laying again - even though they are old - at the same rate they always did. I had tried feeding them raw whole grass-fed cow meat/organs and that didn't do the trick. The whey was different than the meat for them. Makes me wonder.
Sure, but then again, how does Joel Salatin of Polyface farms get his chickens to lay their world-famously-good eggs and how do wild birds lay eggs without benefit of whey dairy products?
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Dorothy the whey these guys are talking about is a protein isolate, or is just the protein from the whey. Whey in tack is mostly lactose, some protein and some minerals and water. So your chickens were getting more than protein. Got to wonder if they'd lay with just the protein from whey protein powder?
Nope, we're talking about protein concentrates not isolates. It's just about as good as liquid whey.
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Sometimes the chicken might not lay eggs because of adverse weather, little to no water and food for example. It might not be because of the whey. It could be for other reasons maybe.
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Some folks talk about separating the yolks out being natural, but if you've seen wild eggs you know that many of them are quite tiny. I find it hard to believe that our primate pre-human, proto-human and early human ancestors would have spent time separating the yolks from the whites of wee eggs, especially before the invention of wooden bowls and cups, and I've never witnessed that with any egg of any size in any video or write-up of hunter-gatherer peoples I've seen. If it were standard practice, then surely we'd have seen at least one example by now.
My cat would carefully lick out the yolk and leave the white, if I cracked a raw egg into a bowl for her.
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Duke - My chickens over the four years I had them never molted and stopped laying like chickens are supposed to and they kept on laying at their full capacity (like a one or two year old chicken) all the way through that horrible drought even. It was precisely when I stopped putting the whey into their feed (because I was putting my dog out with them and she would eat their food and also to experiment if I could have less waste) and when the weather became milder and rains came that they lost their feathers, looked like shit and unhealthy and stopped laying entirely. It was a direct correlation and proved because - TWO DAYS after starting the whey again they started laying again - it took just about as long as it takes to make an egg.
Phil, an old time chicken guy who I just bought three more chickens from told me that on the farms old carcasses were left for the chickens and the chickens foraged mostly for bugs. My next experiment is raising well-fed insects for my chickens and replacing the whey with the bugs to see what happens. I have crickets and mealworms now and am making a black soldier fly maggot composter. Another point in all this is that my chickens are mutants. They put out more eggs than any wild animal ever could or should. I imagine that it would have to take TONS of nutrition to keep up with such production when the egg is a powerhouse of nutrition in itself. Wild birds don't need whey - but my old hens might. In the wild humans also don't necessarily want muscles the size of tree trunks either. ;)
And as far as the size of the egg - yeppers - right there too! The eggs I get from my chickens are bigger than most other eggs except those ostrich eggs and turtles eggs etc. Most bird eggs are tiny. I got some quail eggs once and there was no way possible to separate the yolk from that white.
Van - yes - my whey probably is very different from the powdered stuff - even if it's just because it is fermented and filled with probiotics and hydrating.
Cherimoya, my dogs won't eat the egg whites either..... but I have unfertilized eggs. Do you give your cats fertilized or unfertilized eggs?
Duke, when you say that the biotin in the yolk won't counteract - did you find this from experiments using fertilized eggs or unfertilized eggs?
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My cat would carefully lick out the yolk and leave the white, if I cracked a raw egg into a bowl for her.
It is an interesting example, thanks, and it's an intriguing question, but a better clue for Paleolithic human behavior would be wild primates, so I looked into it and did find a report and an example of yolk-favoring primates, though also a couple primates that appear to enjoy the white as well:
Monkey eating egg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbDZUe4QvQY#)This monkey eats the white and yolk, although rather sloppily, but one of the commentators says the other monkeys only eat the white when they're "really hungry."
Monkey eats a raw egg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wPuS3ozmWM#ws)This monkey also appears to be eating both the white and yolk, even though rather adept at the process, and enjoying it quite a bit, though some of the white did still spill out.
A monkey eating a raw egg in Bali (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9FrFK6FbNU#ws)This monkey favors the yolk, though perhaps in part because he dumped the egg contents and the white washed away, but he still could have licked the remnant of the white if he had wanted to.
I don't have a lot of accumulated evidence yet, but it's looking like yolks are definitely favored (no surprise there given general human preference for yolks, including my own), and whites are sometimes or often discarded, but not always. My guess is that the yolks of quail-size eggs and smaller would be less frequently discarded, except for spillage, and maybe fertilized egg whites would also be discarded less often? Maybe the whites consumed in these videos were fertilized? It seems more plausible that the white-eating monkeys were just hungrier or less well acquainted or adept with eggs. Overall, I guess if these wild behavior examples were to suggest optimal behavior, then that would suggest that it would make sense to eat mostly yolks but sometimes also whites. I do discard some chicken-egg whites as it is (mainly unfertilized whites), but eat most of them. Maybe I'll try discarding more of them for potentially better optimization. It's looking to me like there's probably more egg-white-discarding in the wild than I guessed, including much of it accidental.
Cooked egg whites are even less appealing to me than raw whites--too bland and boring and too much fuss to bother with, though maybe I could liven them up with honey. I actually like duck egg whites and would prefer not to discard any of those and wonder if wild monkeys would eat those more frequently than other whites. I also wonder why they taste better to me than chicken egg whites. Anyone have any idea?
This raises another interesting question: does the casual discarding of whey-rich whites by some primates and a cat, and the lack of whey products in the wild, suggest that whey protein powder is not the superfood it's made out to be? Of course, it's all speculation at this point without more evidence and analysis, but it's fun to ask science-related questions, investigate and learn.
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Re egg yolks and egg whites.
I think it is instinctive balancing.
I myself sometimes feel like eating the entire egg, or sometimes just the yolk, or sometimes the yolk and part of the white.
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Cherimoya, my dogs won't eat the egg whites either..... but I have unfertilized eggs. Do you give your cats fertilized or unfertilized eggs?
She died several years ago, but they were unfertilized, as far as I know.
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Thanks Phil for going through the trouble to find those videos. The second one was particularly cute (I know it was for science - but still ;) )
GS - I figured out why your eggs go back quicker - they are fertilized right? Fertilized eggs go bad much faster they say. Maybe that's why sometimes you want the whites?
Duck eggs are more often fertilized me thinks Phil.
Cheri - I wonder if my dogs and your cat would eat the whites if they were fertilized? Now I'm itchin' to do that experiment.
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Thanks Phil for going through the trouble to find those videos. The second one was particularly cute (I know it was for science - but still ;) )
You're welcome, Dorothy. Yeah, I love that cute ol' chimp in the 2nd video.
Duck eggs are more often fertilized me thinks Phil.
Interesting. Even though the package doesn't say "fertile" like the fertile chicken eggs cartons?
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Cheri - I wonder if my dogs and your cat would eat the whites if they were fertilized? Now I'm itchin' to do that experiment.
Keep us posted if you do the experiment.
I'm entertained that your dogs are so much pickier than mine was. Mine was a shit-eating dog, she loved to eat poop. Will your dogs eat poop, or are they the more proper sort? ROFL
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Keep us posted if you do the experiment.
I'm entertained that your dogs are so much pickier than mine was. Mine was a shit-eating dog, she loved to eat poop. Will your dogs eat poop, or are they the more proper sort? ROFL
I used to have a real problem with my beagle with cancer going outside and finding every single bit of chicken poop she could find, eating it and then coming inside to throw up and have diarrhea. Then I started fermenting her Slankers pet food (the other two dogs don't like it fermented - but she loves it more than the fresh) and no more chicken poop eating!
I think dogs eat poop to get bacteria that they need. They seem to be designed to get some high meat in their diets.
So, I guess now that I feed "rotten" meat I have pickier pooches. ;D
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Interesting. Even though the package doesn't say "fertile" like the fertile chicken eggs cartons?
Chickens can endure much more difficult conditions than ducks can. A duck must have water to submerge it's bill or it can't eat. A lot of duck egg producers raise their ducks where there is a big body of water out in the open. A drake will protect the females and drakes are not aggressive like roosters can be. It's easier to have some quiet drakes in the mix than it is to have roosters in your hen house. Hens can tolerate closed in houses where they are not in danger from above (hawks) but ducks make such a mess with the water in such conditions. The more practical way to raise ducks is to do it more humanely and naturally - otherwise there would be duck eggs as cheap as chicken eggs in every store.
I wonder what conditions it takes to label an egg "fertilized". Just because a hen is with a rooster doesn't mean that the hen is liked by the rooster. Roosters tend to have favorite hens. If you have one drake for lots of ducks some of the eggs will be fertilized, but certainly not all of them. I wonder if there are any regulations or like with so many things they can say whatever they think you want to hear on the label.
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Monkeys eat almost everything. Two days ago, i was feeding a group of monkeys biscuits and baguette and they ate it all. I dont think that the diet habits of the monkeys are better than that of humans who live a healthy life style.
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I used to have a real problem with my beagle with cancer going outside and finding every single bit of chicken poop she could find, eating it and then coming inside to throw up and have diarrhea. Then I started fermenting her Slankers pet food (the other two dogs don't like it fermented - but she loves it more than the fresh) and no more chicken poop eating!
I think dogs eat poop to get bacteria that they need. They seem to be designed to get some high meat in their diets.
An interesting point.
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in the wild canines bury part of their meat to dig it up later to eat. soil microbes will invest the meat. basicly its canine high meat.
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just a note my chickens totally devoured all the blood and whatever little gut parts they could as they were out when we slaughtered the pigs, i made sure to shovel all the weird gelatenous left overs onto some grainy hay for them...they will always eat eggs if they get damaged(fall from a nesting basket, etc....) and i think they make the best eggs this way, with a lot of fats and nutrients from all kinds of naturally occurring sources.........i have some ducks that are laying but i have to have the time to observe them daily as they have this huge pond with all kinds of grasses and bushes and i have to figure out where they go and then kinda follow them about around laying time to be sure i snatch the eggs before the dogs do
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I am using Reliv as my supplement, and it is very good. If you want to know my results in taking it, you may email me.
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Just found out that eating before 2 hours of exercise and probably after inhibits the release of HGH and that it's better to exercise on an empty stomach or at least eat something light and not fatty which can be digested easily not less than two hours of exercising.
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just a note my chickens totally devoured all the blood and whatever little gut parts they could as they were out when we slaughtered the pigs, i made sure to shovel all the weird gelatenous left overs onto some grainy hay for them...they will always eat eggs if they get damaged(fall from a nesting basket, etc....) and i think they make the best eggs this way, with a lot of fats and nutrients from all kinds of naturally occurring sources.........
Chickens seem to me to be more in love with raw meat than dogs or cats! I feed my chickens slankers pet food as well as my animals it was "designed" for. You've never seen anything like it in your life - they go insane. Even my new little pullets (older chicks) after the first bites went psycho. I can't even describe it. It's more intense than when I feed them bugs. I can't put down the bowl because I'd be afraid for my fingers and they will jump at me so I have to throw it in all directions and you never saw chickens move so fast. I'm convinced that the only reason that chickens stop laying eggs is that they are not fed enough protein and minerals to continue to make them. My oldest chickens are going on 5 years old now and make just as many as the new hens and just as many egg as when they were young. Eggs from chickens not given enough raw protein and minerals simply can't be as good for you - I just can't imagine it. The eggs my chickens produce taste and feel different than any other eggs I've ever tasted - because I supplement their diet - but not with standard "chicken food".
Dogs and cats don't have to pump out "the perfect protein" almost every day - there's just no comparison. Chickens make dogs and cats look vegetarians.
Jessica I'm not sure you have to shovel anything - they don't need the hay - and the better they can see the meat the more they will go after it. If you leave the spine and all the small parts chickens will pick it clean faster than you could imagine. Good for you feeding your chickens right - I'm amazed at how badly chickens are usually fed, even by people that seem like they would be more knowledgeable.
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For increasing glutathione perhaps the best way is to balance the gut flora.
http://www.microbialinfluence.com/glutathione.html (http://www.microbialinfluence.com/glutathione.html)
Eliminate tough to digest foods (cooked meats, complex carbs), and up high meat.
I know people on SCD follow the diet strictly, they never cheat. Once you get used to not eating out, or eating at social meals its pretty simple.
The reason being that every cheat meal feeds bad bacteria.
I think its possible to have super natural detoxification, high glutathione levels, and possiibly even resistance to HIV and other STDs by having the right gut flora.