Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: cobalamin on June 13, 2012, 01:32:08 am
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I'm curious.
Conjugated linoleic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugated_linoleic_acid)?
Stearic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid)?
Fatty acids in general?
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protein
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It can't be as simple as protein. Anything else come to mind.
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I don't think meat is what drove our evolution. I think it was the fat that our ancestors found with the meat in the animals they scavenged or killed. Our big brains are made of fat, after all. If you want to be more specific, I'd guess saturated fat and/or cholesterol are the most important biomolecules.
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There's a lot of nutrients in meats that are important.
Like Eric said, the fats. Theres things like the Essential Fatty Acids omega 3 and 6 which can't be found in plant foods.
The brain is 60% fat, and 30% of the is omega 3 DHA and EPA.
Pastured meats have a great ratio of omega 3:6, usually 1:1, which is ideal.
There's also the numerous amino acids which you can get from plants, but most are incomplete proteins (don't contain all the Essential Amino Acids.
Also, in raw meat the nutrients aren't denatured. I think I've red lysine and arginine go rancid, but there may be others. Meat's one of the best ways to get aminos.
Raw cholesterol is said to have healing properties too.
There's probably tons of properties in raw meat that haven't been discovered, and since it's something that likely won't get much research in that area. Although some has emerged.
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I don't think meat is what drove our evolution. I think it was the fat that our ancestors found with the meat in the animals they scavenged or killed. Our big brains are made of fat, after all. If you want to be more specific, I'd guess saturated fat and/or cholesterol are the most important biomolecules.
This is what I also thought since the smartest animals eat more fat and strive to eat more fat however these animals also have complex social systems. Maybe mammals cooperatively working together to find fatty food.
Like Eric said, the fats. Theres things like the Essential Fatty Acids omega 3 and 6 which can't be found in plant foods.
AA and DHA are produced as needed. They aren't hormones; the DHA theory is bunk. The monounsatured fats most likely drove evolution by raising testosterone levels in pregnant women. Men have bigger everything because of testosterone.
The brain is 60% fat, and 30% of the is omega 3 DHA and EPA.
About 50 to 60 percent of the dry weight portion of the human brain consists of lipids. PUFAs constitute approximately 35 percent of that lipid content. Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA and DHA, play important roles in the development and maintenance of normal central nervous system (CNS) structure and function. Along with the omega-6 fatty acid, AA, DHA is a major constituent of neuronal membranes, making up about 20 percent of the brain's dry weight.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37653/#A185715 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37653/#A185715)
AA is just as important as DHA. EPA does not cross the blood brain barrier.
Pastured meats have a great ratio of omega 3:6, usually 1:1, which is ideal.
The ratio theory is bunk. Oils are bad because the fatty acids are oxidized.
There's also the numerous amino acids which you can get from plants, but most are incomplete proteins (don't contain all the Essential Amino Acids.
Plants are the only one's with the enzymes for the synthesis of the Essential Amino Acids. I dislike bias a lot.
Also, in raw meat the nutrients aren't denatured. I think I've red lysine and arginine go rancid, but there may be others. Meat's one of the best ways to get aminos.
You mean as opposed to cooking it? Then I agree. I agree that meat is one of the best ways to get aminos.
Raw cholesterol is said to have healing properties too.
This is exaggeration. We can make more than enough cholesterol, as needed, from Vitamin D synthesis on the skin to producing hormones.
There's probably tons of properties in raw meat that haven't been discovered, and since it's something that likely won't get much research in that area. Although some has emerged.
I am curious and open-minded. Feel free to post this emerged research.
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"AA and DHA are produced as needed. They aren't hormones; the DHA theory is bunk."
I never said they're hormones. And could you elaborate the "DHA theory." Also, it's my understanding DHA is onl made from ALA, and in small amounts. Not amounts sufficient for optimal health.
About 50 to 60 percent of the dry weight portion of the human brain consists of lipids. PUFAs constitute approximately 35 percent of that lipid content. Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA and DHA, play important roles in the development and maintenance of normal central nervous system (CNS) structure and function. Along with the omega-6 fatty acid, AA, DHA is a major constituent of neuronal membranes, making up about 20 percent of the brain's dry weight.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37653/#A185715 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37653/#A185715)
"AA is just as important as DHA. EPA does not cross the blood brain barrier."
Since when did EPA not cross the blood brain barrier? The article you posted says "Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA and DHA, play important roles in the development and maintenance of normal central nervous system (CNS) structure and function."
"The ratio theory is bunk. Oils are bad because the fatty acids are oxidized."
What ratio theory are you referring to? It's well documented that animals grazing on pastures (cows, chickens, etc.) Have a better omega 3:6 ratio. Conventional live stock can have 20:1 omega 6:3, while pastured is typically 1:1. Also, I never said anything about oils.
Plants are the only one's with the enzymes for the synthesis of the Essential Amino Acids. I dislike bias a lot.
You mean as opposed to cooking it? Then I agree. I agree that meat is one of the best ways to get aminos.
"This is exaggeration. We can make more than enough cholesterol, as needed, from Vitamin D synthesis on the skin to producing hormones."
Actually, Vitamin D is made from cholesterol. Cholesterol is a precursor to Vitamin D.
"I am curious and open-minded. Feel free to post this emerged research."
Actually, I was referring to the studies showing HCA's and AGE's are produced by cooking. I misworded it. I'm sure more research will emerge showing the damaging effects of cooking.
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It can't be as simple as protein. Anything else come to mind.
Yeah it's pretty simple.
Fat can be easily manufactured from both carbs and protein.. and cholesterol is made in the liver.
Your body is a lot of protein, unless you're obese. Muscles, organs, enzymes, hormones, and so on, it's all proteins, that are constantly recycled.
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I understood that greens had all of the essential amino acids, it is just seeds that are unbalanced.
By eating most / all of another animal raw I would think that by the very nature of consuming something built the same way as you would make for all your nutrition being supplied.
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I'm curious.
Conjugated linoleic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjugated_linoleic_acid)?
Stearic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid)?
Fatty acids in general?
Maybe we were genetically engineered / modified by aliens to be this way?
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Yeah it's pretty simple.
Fat can be easily manufactured from both carbs and protein.. and cholesterol is made in the liver.
Your body is a lot of protein, unless you're obese. Muscles, organs, enzymes, hormones, and so on, it's all proteins, that are constantly recycled.
I never thought someone would write what you wrote. I always hear the typical mark sisson lines... we don't need carbs since we can make them from protein... at the cost of our health.
Don't we need carbs to stimulate protein synthesis?
Since when are hormones made from protein? I thought all hormones were made from cholesterol, cholesterol made from acetyl-coa, acetyl-coa is made from carbs or fat.
I would say that we mostly need protein for our brain.
I understood that greens had all of the essential amino acids, it is just seeds that are unbalanced.
By eating most / all of another animal raw I would think that by the very nature of consuming something built the same way as you would make for all your nutrition being supplied.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3163/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3163/2)
Incomplete protein is a myth that was created by a nutritionist with no biochemistry education.
I wonder how hard it is on the lymphatic system eating in a carnivorous way.
Maybe we were genetically engineered / modified by aliens to be this way?
Hahahaha.. I thought so too but now I am questioning whether I really need meat since I am seeing the human biochemistry in a totally different light. I've already debunked the Vitamin B12, tryptophan and cellulose myths. Now I am really questioning whether I biochemically need meat for anything else but protein.
I understand from reading your posts on the forum that you were a fruitarian for a short while. I'm curious.. what did you eat? and how much did you eat?
Did you eat fresh leafy greens?
Did you exercise? ....to stimulate muscle synthesis.
It seems like the veg path would work with enough carbs to produce the non-essential fats, with freshly picked leafy greens for protein/omega 3's and freshly picked nuts for extra non-essential fats/protein/omega 6's/insulation. Plus activity.. barefoot walking/running as natural locomotion to stimulate protein synthesis. Just theorizing and it seems impossible to accomplish without a piece of land or greenhouse.
Any ex-vegans wanna add to why the veg life doesn't work? I would like to hear someone's perspective before going down this path.
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I did raw vegan ( greens and fruit ) under the tutelage of Dr. Tam Mateo. 2 months.
I did raw fruitarian while asking questions at the forum of Barefoot Herbalist MH. 2 months.
Both were nutritional disasters for me.
Too skinny, wasting away... and too cold... in tropical Philippines.
I didn't know about paleo diet then, not even raw paleo diet. I just did what I stumbled onto.
I discovered Wai Diet... that adding raw sea food and egg yolks to my fruitarian was a simple step.
Then BOOM! I immediately bounced back to health.
And this is why I'm convinced I need meat. The health bounce was instant.
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As for B12 needs, my wife had bouts of B12 deficiency. When she was deficient... she gorged on my blendered raw liver and raw onions... funny how she ate a big bowl in one sitting really fast.
B12 shot also stabilized her.
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I've already debunked the Vitamin B12, tryptophan and cellulose myths.
Where is this?
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It seems the truth is, "life gives life", meaning eating something as close to when it was alive is going to be digested and given to the eater as a booster of life.
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It seems the truth is, "life gives life", meaning eating something as close to when it was alive is going to be digested and given to the eater as a booster of life.
I also think fermented raw foods are boosters of life. I'm becoming quite a fan of fermented foods.
And, indeed, we do make fat from excess carbohydrates and protein, but we turn these excesses into a certain kind of fat that's useful as an energy store but not for building blocks. We need certain types of fat and cholesterol to make, for instance, the myelin shealths around our nerves and that insulate the connections between neurons in our big brains. We can't make these types of fat, we need to eat them. This is why I think fat is more vital a part of animal foods than the 'meat', which we eat mostly to get protein. I certainly do best and am at my most thoughtful and creative when I'm on a high-animal fat, high cholesterol diet.
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I never thought someone would write what you wrote. I always hear the typical mark sisson lines... we don't need carbs since we can make them from protein... at the cost of our health.
In the end the point is, we can't make amino acids ourselves. And it's a lot easier on the body to turn carbs into fat than protein into carbs.
Don't we need carbs to stimulate protein synthesis?
Since when are hormones made from protein? I thought all hormones were made from cholesterol, cholesterol made from acetyl-coa, acetyl-coa is made from carbs or fat.
I would say that we mostly need protein for our brain.
I'm not sure why would you relate any carbs to protein synthesis.. vitamins, minerals, enzymes, probably yes, but carbs??
And ok, some hormones are from cholesterol, some are proteins.
Why do we need most protein for the brain?? The brain is 1.5kg max, like 2% of the body weight.
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Any ex-vegans wanna add to why the veg life doesn't work? I would like to hear someone's perspective before going down this path?
I'll take on this question Cob - but from an experiential stance rather than from a scientific stance. I've been experimenting a very long time and within that time what we "need", what is "good", what is "essential" and what foods have what has changed so many times that my head spins. So here's why I wouldn't go completely vegan. I spent about a decade trying to become a vegan, about a decade as a vegan and about a decade as a vegetarian. All during these 30 years I always felt amazing when I went 100% raw ... for about 3 - 6 months. I got sooo much energy - but eventually the energy would increase to the point where I just couldn't express it. I would be running up and down the stairs just to get my manic energy out. I would just dance around. I wasn't an athlete and didn't do hard physical labor and didn't want to. Meditation and groundedness and being able to be stable and quiet were also things I needed in my life. So when I would get to "animated" to the point where I thought I would explode I would just add in more cooked food - like steamed veggies and brown rice. But I did go literally decades without meat and I was just fine. I ate as much fat as I could on such a diet. When all RAW vegan I got real skinny, but with even just a little cooked vegan the weight came right back on. Remember - I've done this more times than I can count! My emphasis has always been on how to stay raw because I've come to understand that for me raw is really the way to go. I've never felt better than those first few months, over and over.
When moving to Texas for the first time in my life I got access to raw milk and then was able to get my own chickens and then learned that eating grass-fed and wild meats RAW was actually ok and good. The real boon to this for me is the FAT! I can get the fat that I need so much easier! It's darn hard getting enough raw fat as a vegan or a vegetarian. But also, I can't explain why - but being all raw without at least some animal foods is imbalancing for me. Staying all raw with some raw animal foods is easy in comparison. I need less food, I'm not jumping out of my skin... so far.... and fatty raw animal foods are seeming to be doing my brain some real good as I can tell I can do more with it.
I eat dramatically less animal foods than most people here. I'm basically a raw vegan that eats some raw animal foods.... and I've been a vegan and been successful at it.... and still my question to you is: If you have access to good quality animal foods and you know you can eat them raw and you know how good it has been for so many here and you know that there has been no culture that has not eaten some animal foods... why would you want to experiment with excluding them???
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Where is this?
In my head and on my encrypted USB drive. ;D
You didn't answer my questions.
I grew up starving daily and know what wasting away is. Its not eating enough calories and not getting enough protein. There is a big difference from not eating enough because of laziness and actually trying it.
Were you also deficient in Iron and Vitamin D? ("too cold... in tropical Philippines")
It seems the truth is, "life gives life", meaning eating something as close to when it was alive is going to be digested and given to the eater as a booster of life.
I've never had raw meat give me this boost of life but lots of vegetables eaten alone have given me this boost of life lately.
In the end the point is, we can't make amino acids ourselves. And it's a lot easier on the body to turn carbs into fat than protein into carbs.
We can't makes carbs and fats ourselves either. We need protein, carbs, fats, vitamins and minerals as a complete package.
I'm not sure why would you relate any carbs to protein synthesis.. vitamins, minerals, enzymes, probably yes, but carbs??
And ok, some hormones are from cholesterol, some are proteins.
Why do we need most protein for the brain?? The brain is 1.5kg max, like 2% of the body weight.
Monosaccharides are important fuel molecules as well as building blocks for nucleic acids(DNA and RNA). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate#Monosaccharides)
Carbohydrates are anabolic with protein when muscles are stimulated. Simply by walking.
http://broscience.com/broscience-com-approved-articles/367-carbohydrates-anabolic.html (http://broscience.com/broscience-com-approved-articles/367-carbohydrates-anabolic.html)
Even though the brain is only 2% of the bodyweight, it uses 20% of the total energy and it needs a lot of neurotransmitters which are made from protein.
I eat dramatically less animal foods than most people here. I'm basically a raw vegan that eats some raw animal foods.... and I've been a vegan and been successful at it.... and still my question to you is: If you have access to good quality animal foods and you know you can eat them raw and you know how good it has been for so many here and you know that there has been no culture that has not eaten some animal foods... why would you want to experiment with excluding them??
I've never eaten a lot of meat either.
I want to experiment because I've gotten into the biochemistry and bacteriology of humans from a perspective that has never been written about. I now see meat as survival food and nothing else. There is absolutely nothing in meat that I see that I can't get from a variety of natural veg foods and can be co-produced with bacteria.
I see that cultures do and have been doing what they need to do to survive for a long time and nothing else. We humans are still primates and like all primates.. the majority learn from each other even though the teachings could be wrong. Even though billions of people do something.. it doesn't make it scientifically correct.
I don't believe muscle meat has had a beneficial factor to anyone since its protein and fats. Organ meats is what has been beneficial to most since they contain a lot of pre-formed vitamins. So.. if someone is deficient in Vitamin A, D, K2 and folic acid.. liver and other organ meats will be very beneficial. All in all... those that are deficient in fat soluble vitamins need to eat organ meats because of their inactivity and laziness.
I'm off to experiment with a plant based diet.
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I wish you great luck with your experiment cobalamin. I've been there and done that, so I understand the allure. I also understand where you are coming from that just because everyone does something doesn't make it true or right for you. Just remember that a great many people at this forum say that they have tried exclusively plant based diets and gotten themselves quite ill in the process. I was lucky I guess that it agreed with me - up to a point - it just couldn't take me all the way to where I wanted to go. I suggest not to get stuck in your mind or beliefs so much that if you start not to feel your best that you get stubborn. I've seen that happen lots with people that are purely vegetarians and especially vegans. I give you a friendly warning not to ignore symptoms or try to talk them away. Also, if I might suggest, I would ask someone who doubts what you are doing and knows you well to monitor you mental functioning. Sadly what can happen is that when someone goes raw vegan it sometimes can result in malfunctions of the brain due to deficiencies and then the person can't perceive that there is something wrong because the organ that they need to inform them is sick. Maybe write out a letter to yourself at the start of symptoms that you will take as indicators that there is something wrong. People here have spoken of many ways in which their brain function suffered and I'm sure they would give you a good list of them if you asked. And then I would give it to the person you trust, knows you and doubts... to hold and ask them to show it to you in case you are not capable of thriving on a plant alone diet.
Again - I wish you success.
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Yeah, good luck. Please report back to us. When you report back, if you've started down the road to brain damage from fat or B-12 deficiency, that will definitely be a good object lesson for others. Rest assured, any such brain damage will be clear in your posts, even if you're not aware of it.
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In my head and on my encrypted USB drive. ;D
You didn't answer my questions.
I thought I did answer your questions. Did I waste my time typing for you?
Just like Aajonus, I heal people of medically "incurable" diseases.
And so far, just like Aajonus' experience, same with my pro-healer buddies... it seems sick people need real animal meat and animal fat... aside from vegetables and fruits.
I think we have a thread here that related our successes with raw paleo diet and I inputted several of my cases there.
The fact that sick people are cured with raw meat and raw fat convinces me that people do need animal food.
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Any ex-vegans wanna add to why the veg life doesn't work? I would like to hear someone's perspective before going down this path.
My reasons are personal. If you want veges that bad, more power to you. Raw animal foods help my health.
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We can't makes carbs and fats ourselves either. We need protein, carbs, fats, vitamins and minerals as a complete package.
You're missing the point, but whatever.
Monosaccharides are important fuel molecules as well as building blocks for nucleic acids(DNA and RNA). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate#Monosaccharides)
Carbohydrates are anabolic with protein when muscles are stimulated. Simply by walking.
http://broscience.com/broscience-com-approved-articles/367-carbohydrates-anabolic.html (http://broscience.com/broscience-com-approved-articles/367-carbohydrates-anabolic.html)
nucleic acids != protein, and no comment on the broscience.
Even though the brain is only 2% of the bodyweight, it uses 20% of the total energy and it needs a lot of neurotransmitters which are made from protein.
I'm not sure how 20% of the energy (carbs or whatever) and some neurotransmitters translate to a "major user of protein in the body".
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I don't believe muscle meat has had a beneficial factor to anyone since its protein and fats. Organ meats is what has been beneficial to most since they contain a lot of pre-formed vitamins. So.. if someone is deficient in Vitamin A, D, K2 and folic acid.. liver and other organ meats will be very beneficial. All in all... those that are deficient in fat soluble vitamins need to eat organ meats because of their inactivity and laziness.
I'm off to experiment with a plant based diet.
Oh, so you haven't tried a meat - less diet yet like most of us have?
Well good skill to you and hope you post here again after a few months or a few years.
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Hi cobalamin,
remember that:
1) No hunter-gatherers were vegetarians
'No hunter-gatherer population is entirely or largely dependent (86–100% subsistence) on gathered plant
foods, whereas 20% (n = 46) are highly or solely dependent (86–100%) on fished and hunted animal foods.'
http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/682.full.pdf (http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/682.full.pdf)
2) All our primate relatives eat animal foods - insects, eggs, monkeys...
3) Chimps and gorillas have very large hind guts to obtain far more energy from vegetation than we can: http://donmatesz.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/more-raw-truth-about-raw-vegan-diets.html (http://donmatesz.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/more-raw-truth-about-raw-vegan-diets.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zh41FZNHXGI/TVM2Si-3G0I/AAAAAAAAAe0/0Krqy1MIuUU/s1600/Comparison+of+apes+and+Man.JPG)
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I also think fermented raw foods are boosters of life. I'm becoming quite a fan of fermented foods.
And, indeed, we do make fat from excess carbohydrates and protein, but we turn these excesses into a certain kind of fat that's useful as an energy store but not for building blocks. We need certain types of fat and cholesterol to make, for instance, the myelin shealths around our nerves and that insulate the connections between neurons in our big brains. We can't make these types of fat, we need to eat them. This is why I think fat is more vital a part of animal foods than the 'meat', which we eat mostly to get protein. I certainly do best and am at my most thoughtful and creative when I'm on a high-animal fat, high cholesterol diet.
Protective Myelin is 70% Fat
Myelin, the protective sheath that covers communicating neurons, is composed of 30% protein and 70% fat. One of the most common fatty acids in myelin is oleic acid, which is also the most abundant fatty acid in human milk and in our diet.
Monosaturated oleic acid is the main component of olive oil as well as the oils from almonds, pecans, macadamias, peanuts, and avocados.
Source: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild (http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild)
Grass-fed beef is very low in oleic acid and omega 6. Nuts are high in oleic acid and omega 6.
Our biochemistry seems to favour nuts. Nuts seem nutritionally superior to beef or maybe I am missing something?
Dorothy, Thank you. Your comment means a lot, I will take everything you said into account and I agree with it 100%!
Yeah, good luck. Please report back to us. When you report back, if you've started down the road to brain damage from fat or B-12 deficiency, that will definitely be a good object lesson for others. Rest assured, any such brain damage will be clear in your posts, even if you're not aware of it.
Hahahaha!! Scientifically it seems that if I avoid nuts.. I will suffer brain damage. As for B12, find out how other primates make the vitamin and you'll see that we make it exactly the same way.
RawZi, were you deficient in Vitamin D and fats?
aLptHW4k4y, I understood you perfectly but some people like myself need more of everything than others. Protein is important but so are all the other nutrients.. like water, folic acid, magnesium, calcium which are abundant in plant foods. I'm sure you know that all nutrients work together in synergy.
goodsamaritan, You didn't tell me how much fruit you ate. I have not tried a plant based diet because I am not the typical person that jumps in without the truth. I agree with you that organ meats are beneficial to those that are sick with deficiencies but you have to understand that I am not sick.
The fact that sick people are cured with raw meat and raw fat convinces me that people do need animal food.
People with deficiencies and people fighting for survival need animal food. There are other factors to take into account.. activity, sunshine and happiness. Vitamin D plays a major role into the equilibrium of our biochemistry.
alive, Nice pictures. I never said we were herbivores. Our short colon proves that we can't ferment much vegetation but a little vegetation we do need for folic acid, magnesium and calcium.
All our primate relatives eat animal foods... when food is scarce to survive. All mammals have protease enzymes to digest flesh; including cows, sheeps, horses, etc.. Cow in India eats 48 chickens! (http://www.news.com.au/weird-true-freaky/meat-loving-cow-eats-chickens/story-e6frflri-1111113118642) - Poor cow was most likely starving.
Since it seems that you're "thinking for yourself", tell me how all those primates produce Vitamin B12. Hint: primates in zoo's become deficient in Vitamin B12 and Vitamin B12 is UV sensitive, so.. B12 is impossible to find on a leaf.
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Protective Myelin is 70% Fat
Myelin, the protective sheath that covers communicating neurons, is composed of 30% protein and 70% fat. One of the most common fatty acids in myelin is oleic acid, which is also the most abundant fatty acid in human milk and in our diet.
Monosaturated oleic acid is the main component of olive oil as well as the oils from almonds, pecans, macadamias, peanuts, and avocados.
Source: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild (http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild)
Grass-fed beef is very low in oleic acid and omega 6. Nuts are high in oleic acid and omega 6.
Our biochemistry seems to favour nuts. Nuts seem nutritionally superior to beef or maybe I am missing something?
"The first problem is that almost half of the fat in beef is a monounsaturated fat called oleic acid—the same heart-healthy fat that's found in olive oil."
From - http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/saturated_fat/printer.php (http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/saturated_fat/printer.php)
"30% of the fat from grass-fed beef is oleic acid, the heart healthy fat found in olive oil"
from - http://achievemorefitness.com/?p=963 (http://achievemorefitness.com/?p=963)
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The problem with olive oil cob is finding any that isn't rancid. It's rare. There are certain stores that specialize only in olive oil buying quickly from small growers and putting a HARVEST DATE on the label. There is one here in Austin and I got my first fresh tasting olive oil in decades there. If you are going to depend on olive oil or olives you will have to access a really good source with the harvest date on the bottle. It's not easy and it's expensive - but it's the only way to not be poisoning yourself with oil rather than helping yourself.
It's hard to find good sources of grass-fed beef fat but it's even harder to find good fresh plant oils!
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Miker Alive - that picture freaked me out! If it weren't for the long forearms I'd swear those were some people I know! ;)
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DaBoss88,
Those articles contain a lot of bias and no references.
I was comparing the beef to nuts. Obviously Grass-fed is healthy and grain-fed is poison because of the type of saturated fat that raises LDL cholesterol.
Whats wrong with nuts?
Beef doesn't contain many omega 6's.
Dorothy,
I totally agree, even here in Italian superstores its hard to find quality olive oil unless one has Italian grandparents from the south of Italy who cold press it every year. ;D
My grandma from the south of Italy is atleast 500lbs and her olive oil has kept her alive for years even after eating all those cooked animal products and grains. Shes about to hit 90.
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DaBoss88,
Those articles contain a lot of bias and no references.
I was comparing the beef to nuts. Obviously Grass-fed is healthy and grain-fed is poison because of the type of saturated fat that raises LDL cholesterol.
Whats wrong with nuts?
Beef doesn't contain many omega 6's.
Pastured meats still have omega 6, just a more balanced ratio of 3:6. But when did it become so important to consume lot's of omega 6? It's my understanding that it's ideal to have about a 1:1 ratio omega 3:6 to prevent inflamation. And you don't really get much of any omega 3 in nuts (except maybe walnuts).
Sorry, I didn't see any sources from you showing there's very little oleic acid in pastured beef either. But it's my understanding that there's lots of oleic acid in beef. I think I saw something from the USDA trying to convince people beef is safe that showed what high levels of oleic acid it has.
Nonetheless, what you had said is nuts are more nutritious than pastured beef, which I disagree with.
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Dorothy,
I totally agree, even here in Italian superstores its hard to find quality olive oil unless one has Italian grandparents from the south of Italy who cold press it every year. ;D
Oh - you lucky dog! I want an Italian grandma with an olive grove too. ;)
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this topic is so fucking esoteric...........really
you cant answer this with studies, we evolved with meat and meat evolved with us, just as every other thing in the universe is a constant and relative evolution that has no beginning or end, no particular goal, no real purpose, just that is is, and we should enjoy it and be more in awe of the experience then to make "sense" of it all
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Yes Jessica, I think Cob is coming to this from a highly intellectual place. The thing is that he is healthy already so I can understand it as I came to eating raw from an intellectual place originally too and not from trying to cure something. That's why I caution him not to use just his brain but watch very carefully how his body reacts and more importantly to have someone ELSE that's not a believer to watch him too. I can tell that he is experimentally oriented. Still, there are many people that experimented with this and got quite ill without realizing it until they had already done themselves a good deal of harm. The intellect can be used to enhance what used to be so simple but no longer is ... diet choices.
On that note - since you obviously like to do your research cob - how about starting a thread to ask everyone who has tried an only plant diet what it was that they ate and how it affected them? This way you could get some data from people that have gone before and who are not towing a party line or belief system. This place is filled with some pretty sharp people that have already done a good deal of experimentation. I imagine that such information could be very useful even if it's just not doing the same thing wrong that others did if you can find a pattern in their plant-based diets. Perhaps, the stories will change your mind or perhaps just make you more attune to what to watch out for in case things start to go wrong hopefully before any serious damage is done.
Are you planning on eating any animal foods? Are you going totally vegan? How long were you already raw paleo?
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how about something like compatibility... our body has to process plant nutrition to make what is bioactive for us, an inefficient process at best. plus the animal does that for us.
every time i visit my farm i wish i could be vegetarian or even vegan... i love the animals! but it doesn't work for me, i can't thrive that way. my body is so happy and healthy when i eat animal foods. i have to listen to that, no matter what my mind prefers.
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I agree with you Ioanna, for me its it's facing my perception of reality.
If our ancestors have lived on between 5% and 90% raw animal foods for the last 100 million years it makes sense to continue.
@cobalamin - if you want to avoid eating meat, can you have eggs?
Also microbe rich foods would be excellent, as the organisms would have upgraded a lot of nutrients for you.
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every time i visit my farm i wish i could be vegetarian or even vegan... i love the animals! but it doesn't work for me, i can't thrive that way. my body is so happy and healthy when i eat animal foods. i have to listen to that, no matter what my mind prefers.
This is it exactly Loanna - it's really about what the body wants. Some times though if we let it the mind can over power what the body is asking for and needs. That's the real trap that cob will have to make sure he doesn't fall into imho. We can too easily talk ourselves into things that eventually hit us between the eyes when it's too late. I've read so many vegans in another site listing serious illnesses and problems in my estimation as if they were normal or just ignoring them as "detoxes" etc.
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DaBoss88, I am not starting a fight with you. I want you to see the truth instead of feeding me bias that has no basis with reality. Please forget the Omega ratio theory because it has no basis with reality.
No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state. None. Inflammation is caused by oxidized fatty acids, advanced glycation end products, etc... heated molecules. Every disease is caused by certain individuals fixation on manipulating everything without taking into account the negative consequences and teaching this destructive behaviour for generations upon generations.
Linoleic acid (Omega 6)
Linoleic acid is a polyunsaturated fatty acid occurring widely in plant glycerides or fats. Common sources include many vegetable oils such as flax seed, safflower, soybean, peanut, and corn; some margarines; and dairy fats. It is a colorless to straw-colored liquid, insoluble in water, but soluble in alcohol and ether. Linoleic acid is easily oxidized by air and is combustible.
Source: http://www.reciprocalnet.org/recipnet/showsamplebasic.jsp?sampleId=27344307 (http://www.reciprocalnet.org/recipnet/showsamplebasic.jsp?sampleId=27344307)
Omega 6's and other fatty acids are easily oxidized by air and obviously heat. Oils, cooked flesh, roasted nuts, pasteurized dairy, processed foods, etc.. should be avoided.
The linking of omega-6 intake to inflammation stems from the fact that arachidonic acid (AA), which can be formed from LA, is involved in the early stages of inflammation. However, the advisory explains that AA and LA also give rise to anti-inflammatory molecules.
For example, in the cells that form the lining of blood vessels, omega-6 PUFA have anti-inflammatory properties, suppressing the production of adhesion molecules, chemokines and interleukins — all of which are key mediators of the atherosclerotic process. “Thus, it is incorrect to view the omega-6 fatty acids as ‘pro-inflammatory,’” Harris explained. “Eating less LA will not lower tissue levels of AA (the usual rationale for reducing LA intakes) because the body tightly regulates the synthesis of AA from LA.”
Getting omega 3 fatty acids in your diet is still a good idea. Also, how you get your omega 6 fatty acids probably matters. For example, Nuts which are high in omega 6 also contain magnesium, vitamin E, and other beneficial nutrients. Whereas cooking oil delivers the omega 6 fats without as much of other nutrients.
Source: http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/005915.html (http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/005915.html)
Avoid the rhetoric comments at the bottom of the article.
jessica, And the world was considered a cube long ago. I'm not stopping you from eating meat. No need to get angry about it. We are all individuals here and have the freedom to make our own choices.
how about something like compatibility... our body has to process plant nutrition to make what is bioactive for us, an inefficient process at best. plus the animal does that for us.
Which nutrients and which type of plants?
There is a lot of factors to take into account when judging the efficiency of our biochemistry. Like a history of antibiotics which slaughtered the beneficial bacteria and a lack of Vitamin D plays a major role into the efficiency of the biochemistry.
alive, Our ancestors did it to survive just like capuchin monkeys eat animals when nuts are scarce. Capuchin monkeys having the closest gut morphology to us humans --- I live in the city. Its impossible finding fresh eggs. I might start eating meat again when it gets closer to winter. Now I'm going to experiment with soaking nuts. I'm lucky to have a factory close to where I live that imports nuts from around the world.
Dorothy, I've been raw meat/fish paleo with fruit, greens and baked potatoes for a couple months until I got an epiphany recently. Someone accidentally cut me with the scissors, small cut and I got blood phobic. Having meat nicely prepared for me is nice but what if I had to kill an animal myself and there is blood everywhere?
I agree with you, there is no such thing as detox symptoms. When we eat healthy, the body/mind feel stable and healthy. If I start feeling down, I know I will need fat.
I think it would be pointless asking what vegans ate because there is a lot of factors, especially gut bacteria health. Someone with healthy gut bacteria can easily digest the cellulose skin of tomatoes while someone with IBS majorly lacks these bacteria. A vegan telling me not to eat something because it doesn't work for them doesn't make it completely true while it will work with someone with healthy gut bacteria.
Thanks for the suggestions.
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DaBoss88, No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state.
I'm sure that's the case! lol
Seriously though, Jess and Dorothy nailed it, science can stroke itself all it wants, but where the rubber hits the road is what set of foods your body responds to in health and growth and which it responds to with protection and defense.
Good foods make you feel good in a long lasting and deep way. Bad foods either treat you badly from the get go, or they provide just a quick high and then your system is left with the damage and cleanup afterwards, manifested as low energy along with specific accompanying symptoms.
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No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state. None. Inflammation is caused by oxidized fatty acids, advanced glycation end products, etc... heated molecules.
Yeah right. No mater how "natural" the molecule, your body will oxidize it to get energy.
This generates a bunch of ROS, which are pretty damn inflammatory!
And btw, please get a degree in chemistry, biology, and nutrition, before saying I debunked this or that theory.
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No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state. None.
ever get bitten by a spider?
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jessica, And the world was considered a cube long ago. I'm not stopping you from eating meat. No need to get angry about it. We are all individuals here and have the freedom to make our own choices.
i am not angry, sorry i threw an f bomb in there! i am just saying that it is a super esoteric question to which there is no answer, because you can get smaller and smaller with the details only to notice that they become more and more infinitely complex, and the best we can do is grasp at creating a neat system of symbols that does not evolve of its self or relatively to how fast we "learn" more and how things keep changing
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Dorothy, I've been raw meat/fish paleo with fruit, greens and baked potatoes for a couple months until I got an epiphany recently. Someone accidentally cut me with the scissors, small cut and I got blood phobic. Having meat nicely prepared for me is nice but what if I had to kill an animal myself and there is blood everywhere?
I agree with you, there is no such thing as detox symptoms. When we eat healthy, the body/mind feel stable and healthy. If I start feeling down, I know I will need fat.
I think it would be pointless asking what vegans ate because there is a lot of factors, especially gut bacteria health. Someone with healthy gut bacteria can easily digest the cellulose skin of tomatoes while someone with IBS majorly lacks these bacteria. A vegan telling me not to eat something because it doesn't work for them doesn't make it completely true while it will work with someone with healthy gut bacteria.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I ended up here because I started asking myself what I would be willing to do myself. I was definitely willing and able to raise chickens for eggs. I was willing to milk a cow. Those were easy. I then figured that I was willing to kill bugs so maybe I should try eating bugs if I weren't so socially conditioned. I would catch and kill fish if there was nothing else for me to eat so fish was ok for me too - but it was really rare I ate it. Then my mother got very ill and the only thing that helped her brain was raw animal foods. I didn't raise or prepare them myself, but it got me to thinking. Then, my husband started having problems. When I asked what I would kill for myself it stopped at the bugs since I didn't seem to really NEED meat, but what I would kill for my husband - for him to be well - that went all the way up the food chain and stopped not far below humans and if it were between some humans and my husband - I'd be really dangerous.
That's how I ended up here eating raw meat. I was convinced raw meat was better for my husband than cooked so I sat in front of him (after being vegan or vegetarian for decades) and ate raw meat until he admitted that if the one person on the earth he thought would suffer from any meat was eating raw meat it had to be ok.
But now that I'm here I've realized that the eggs, fish and once in a month or two red meat and especially the raw fats from animals far exceeds anything I could get as a vegan or vegetarian. I didn't NEED them to live - but to really thrive being able to eat everything raw and not waste away into nothingness - for THAT I needed raw animal foods - even if just occasionally.
You are very lucky to have those good nuts/seeds. I love soaked nuts and seeds and eat them almost every day. It's a wonderful source of fats and proteins. It's just that you have to eat sooooo much of them to get anything near what one little bit of bone marrow or fatty fish can impart. What ended up happening on raw vegan is that I needed to eat so much food! It's one of the most expensive and time consuming ways to eat if you do it right.
My suggestion about asking people that have been vegan how it went wrong for them was to get a list of symptoms to watch out for - but it sounds like you will be stringent in watching your health.
Here's my next flight of fantasy in thinking about meat and eating it. If we were in a tribe, not everyone would hunt. As a woman in particular I might not be expected to hunt - but even if you had a phobia about blood or couldn't do it, you might be able to still be of value to the tribe and offer other foods to share. In our society we think of ourselves as sole providers - but our sourcing foods in a way has made us all into one big tribe together. If other people have to do the hunting and preparing - so what? If it's good for you, it's good. If you could survive or not on your own eating that way really isn't the question - it's too esoteric! The question in our modern society really has to be - "Out of all the foods available to me - which is the best for me to eat generally?" Good for me also includes" fits my budget, is available, is something I can and will do, best gives me what I need?
It sounds like you have great sources of olive oil and seeds. There's no reason not to use those sources. There is also no reason not to avail yourself of marvelous fat and protein sources that make eating well EASY.
Raw vegan is a hard thing to pull off. It's not that you can't necessarily - but I still don't understand why you would want to? Readily prepared meat/fat/organs is not a sin in our society. It doesn't seem like you have ethical reasons for not eating it either, so your decision still does not make logical sense to me. Why cut yourself away from good resources?
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Our biochemistry seems to favour nuts. Nuts seem nutritionally superior to beef or maybe I am missing something?
Yes you missed something. Actual, personal experience.
Aajonus' experiments with nut consumption for himself and for his patients is that nuts are hard to digest and interfere with meat consumption. Besides the fact that they are nowhere near as nutritious as meat. And it will depend on the nuts available to you. Aajonus has a nut formula.
In the Philippines, the best local raw nut I can get my hands on is Pili nuts and I experimented with lots of them. And my experiments led me to the same conclusions as Aajonus above. Pili nuts interfere with meat consumption and nowhere near as nutritious as meat.
Go ahead and experiment... experimenting is fun.
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Of course one would never eat nuts WITH meat!? Do that just once and you know that's wrong.
Even when soaked, nuts can be hard for some people to digest.
That one might be personal. I can only get frozen red meat and too much makes gritty yucky stuff come out of my eyes, yet I can eat all the soaked nuts/seeds I want and feel great.
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Of course one would never eat nuts WITH meat!? Do that just once and you know that's wrong.
Even when soaked, nuts can be hard for some people to digest.
That one might be personal. I can only get frozen red meat and too much makes gritty yucky stuff come out of my eyes, yet I can eat all the soaked nuts/seeds I want and feel great.
I experimented with nuts at separate meals. Not with meat in the same meal. Even if I space 12 hours away, the nuts still interfere with meat digestion.
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I experimented with nuts at separate meals. Not with meat in the same meal. Even if I space 12 hours away, the nuts still interfere with meat digestion.
Oh. Did you soak the nuts? Do you mean meat including seafood or just read meat?
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i do not digest nuts whatsoever with the exception of some almond butter made with soaked almonds. there is no way that my biochemistry favors nuts to meat.. trust me!
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Oh. Did you soak the nuts? Do you mean meat including seafood or just read meat?
Pili nuts are this http://stuartxchange.com/Pili.html (http://stuartxchange.com/Pili.html)
No nut soaking. I've never tried that.
Meat for me is any animal terrestrial or marine.
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I can't digest raw nuts well at all. Enzyme inhibitors I'd imagine. I soak all my nuts/seeds and usually make them into a cream, but also eat them dehydrated at low temperatures. You might want to try them again soaked GS. That looks like a beautiful tree. I'd love to try those!
Loanna, I reallly do love activated nutbutters.
I'm very glad that I can digest seeds well. I need them to be able to eat my fruit. I do so much better eating fruit when I mix them with activated nuts. The fat and protein (especially now that I'm no longer eating dairy) make fruit possible for me.
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Her username is "Ioanna", not "Loanna"!
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Her username is "Ioanna", not "Loanna"!
Am I now not allowed to capitalize the first letter of my sentences???
Edit:
Oh - I see - it's my font. The capital I looks much like an l.
Thanks. I've had that wrong the whole time even in my head how I was pronouncing it.
Sorry about that Ionna.
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I thought it was an 'i' but pronounced yoanna.
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I thought it was an 'i' but pronounced yoanna.
Ioanna - how would we pronounce your name?
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Ioanna - how would we pronounce your name?
haha, i always wonder if people know how to say my name... wodg is right
it's pronounced like this: yo-ahn-uh.
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And ioanna, tell us also, how do you keep your fins so shiny and neat?
I've always wondered about your name, where does it come from?
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And ioanna, tell us also, how do you keep your fins so shiny and neat?
I've always wondered about your name, where does it come from?
;D
my family is italian and greek.... ioanna is a greek name, it's gotten passed on as a middle name among the females. it was my grandmother's first name, except when she immigrated here (nyc) they heard it as 'helen', so helen became her 'american' name.
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I had an aunt who's nickname was Iona (eye oh nah) of Czech decent and my mother's name was Helen and they all might have been living in NY at the same time as your grandmother.