Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: svrn on July 24, 2012, 09:48:41 am

Title: wine
Post by: svrn on July 24, 2012, 09:48:41 am
so if fermented foods are supposed to be good for you then why is wine considered bad for you? I understand that too much alcohol is damaging but wouldnt a raw wine just be considered another fermented food? What sets it apart from other fermented foods? Some say a glass a day is healthy.

Anyway, im going to get the best most natural wine I can find and experiment with small amounts. Im just gonna treat it as another fermented food.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: cherimoya_kid on July 24, 2012, 10:46:45 am
Try it.  If it works well for you, keep doing it.  Moderate alcohol consumption, 1-2 drinks a day, does seem to correlate with good health, according to a number of studies.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 24, 2012, 11:05:11 am
Yeah, the wine thing has thrown me for a loop too. Part of it is who the hell knows how it's processed, every vineyard/bottling facility will be different. You also have to factor in additives, what material the vats/casks are made out of, what kind of rearing protocol they use.

I like stellar vineyards stuff, but alcohol is a doozy for me so I drink only a handful of times a year and only super high quality ferments.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 24, 2012, 11:45:31 am
At least do organic without the added sulfites. Those really affect my brain badly more than any amount of alcohol does.
Phil made a whole thread on this just recently including what sources of wine are considered actually raw.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: svrn on July 24, 2012, 01:27:06 pm
IM going to get the best available catergory which is "primordially farmed" from these guys. the guy at the wine shop said pretty much all wines are totally raw and that as long as its organic and vegan it should be good. I guess what they are fermented in may also be a cause for concern but i dont ask that of any other fermenter I buy from.

He said this wine was the best for what im looking for

http://www.aumcellars.com/ (http://www.aumcellars.com/)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 24, 2012, 01:31:18 pm
"These same friends (all of whom were well into their 80's) encouraged me and supported my ideals regarding farming organically - each sharing their own stories, professing that my ideology/technique was the same as when they farmed as kids.  None of them took pharmaceutical drugs; they all either played golf, tennis or chased the opposite sex; and the kicker was they all drank damn good wine!  Real wine… wine made from grapes that weren’t manipulated for a higher margin.  The wines they drank were made from the same guys they bumped into at the grocery store - the guys who were doing what they loved to do: make great wine!

 

Nowadays, these same wine brands are owned and operated by corporations that are owned by liquor distilleries and breweries half way around the globe.  Wine isn't what it used to be.  The wines our grandparents and great grandparents drank are not the same kinds of wines we find in the stores today.

 

Aum Cellars is the exception to the corporate watering down effect. We offer a precious alterative. Our wines are a modern version of what we once had. They are a primordial sustenance - An accumulation of knowledge passed down from our forefathers, respectfully paired with the scientific metaphysical discoveries of our generation. If you see food as medicine, then you will appreciate our belief that Aum wines are the evolutionary elixirs to help reach ones highest manifestation.  If those concepts don’t resonate with you, you can simply appreciate the deliciousness of Aum Cellar wines and come to your own conclusions as to why most people do not experience those annoying wine side effects (stuffy nose, body/head aches, ill feelings) after consuming Aum!

Namaste"

Pretty impressive troll, will you please let us know how it is? Would be nice to get the 'raw paleo' of wine!
Title: Re: wine
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on July 24, 2012, 03:02:10 pm
The problem with alcohol is it can easily make you go for bad things.
I see it all the time with a lot of friends, e.g. they don't usually smoke, but after 1-2 glasses..
Or it can make you eat crappy food, or drive fast, or whatever.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 24, 2012, 05:33:46 pm
Alcohol is a poison. Believe what you like, but it will do harm.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 24, 2012, 09:23:17 pm
Unless you are pretty flush - the expense of that particular wine and how hard they make it to buy it from them probably means that you (Troll) don't plan on drinking all that much right?

I've been wanting to try my hand at making fermented drinks (would it turn out to be wine I don't know) out of the wild grapes that grow here. I bought some more grape vines of different varieties to try growing too. I ferment most other things, makes sense that fermenting grapes if done correctly could be healthful. So much depends I think on how much you drink of it.

PaleoPhil's thread made an impact on my thinking in regard to ethanol.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/fermented-fruit/msg95667/#msg95667 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/fermented-fruit/msg95667/#msg95667)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: svrn on July 24, 2012, 11:30:20 pm
Alcohol is a poison. Believe what you like, but it will do harm.

so according to you, other fermented foods are fine, but fermenting grape juice is where you draw the line?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 25, 2012, 12:51:11 am
It's probably just the alcohol part Troll that Al is referring to - right Al? When I ferment my kombucha for instance I put a cloth on top to let the alcohol evaporate where the ones in the store they try to make it as alcoholic as they legally can in order to sell more.

Can you ferment grapes without it becoming alcoholic?

But Troll - ya gotta go see the videos that Phil posted of animals having a frat party with fermented fruit!

The thing that I thought was interesting is that animals including us as paleos had alcohol as part of our diets in fermenting fruits. Also, what Phil posted about how we probably evolved with it and that it might be an important part of our social abilities and survival was interesting. It might be that ethanol is part of our natural diet that we evolved to eat!

I think I'm supposed to eat nuts for instance even though there seems to be along list of bad things in them. I just don't eat too many and I assume that what's in them is better for me than what's bad in them and that when I have a strong immune system and digestive system that I can easily handle the bad parts in order to get the good parts.

There are so few things to eat that don't have "bad" or "poisonous" aspect to them - especially in excess.

Just my thoughts. 
Title: Re: wine
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on July 25, 2012, 02:54:49 am
so according to you, other fermented foods are fine, but fermenting grape juice is where you draw the line?
wine is 10%+ of alcohol, I don't think other fermented foods have that much
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 25, 2012, 03:23:02 am
All ferments are not the same. Yeasts tend to make alcohol, bacteria not. So yogurt isn't going to produce much if any alcohol, whereas grapes, honey, etc will.

But as was said above, even Aajonus, who is wholly against toxins in most forms, says a little raw wine is ok once in a while. I'm extremely sensitive to Alchy in any form, but I did a ton of damage to myself when younger. I know that it is not pure poison 100% of the time because lots of my SAD friends drink tons of it, and other than a rare pimple, they seem to have great skin (though eventually the damage will be apparent) even though they drink loads of the stuff. If you indulge once a month, and in reasonable amounts, high quality ferments, you are probably not harming yourself and quite the opposite may be doing yourself a favor, since, like Cheri said, many studies seem to indicate it's healthful even on much larger scales.

As with everything, listen to your body, it will tell you sooner or later if it doesn't  like what you're doing to it.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 25, 2012, 05:20:28 am
the guy at the wine shop said pretty much all wines are totally raw
That's not what the info I found said and it doesn't make sense, given that some wines are labeled and advertised as raw ("non-mevushal" wines, for example) and others as not raw ("meshuval") by the very same vintner--see my threads:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-alcoholic-beverages/msg94124/#msg94124 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-alcoholic-beverages/msg94124/#msg94124)

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/fermented-fruit/ (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/fermented-fruit/)

Did he provide any sources?

There are so few things to eat that don't have "bad" or "poisonous" aspect to them - especially in excess.
Quite right. Unbenownst to most, even fruits reportedly contain tiny amounts of the plant's insecticides and fungicides. Every food contains small amounts of some toxin or other. It doesn't make them all inherently unhealthy. One of the common themes of nature, I'm learning, is that nature is characterized much less by absolutes than by complexity and grays.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 25, 2012, 05:33:12 am
Phil I had an 'aha!' moment the other day and realized the reason my honey fermented so easily when I was using it for sweetener with water added is because I was opening it once or twice per day to add it to my coffee. That was introducing fresh air and facilitating the process. If you just pretend you're going to add it to your coffee each day, open it, wave it around a bit and then close it back up, I bet it will ferment in to mead no problem.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 25, 2012, 06:05:03 am
so according to you, other fermented foods are fine, but fermenting grape juice is where you draw the line?
Small amounts of alcohol are fine and can be useful to carry nutrients to the cells, but typically wine is not consumed in tsp amounts.  ;D
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 25, 2012, 06:41:00 am
Thanks for the additional info, Thoth. Presumably then, just leaving it open all the time would ferment even quicker, right?

Most of the studies I've seen reported benefits from 1-3 glasses of wine per day, not tsps, and they tend to call it "moderate wine consumption." It's hard to prove one way or the other, though, and some people are far more prone to alcoholism than others and not all alcoholic beverages or wines are the same, so YMMV. That's why personal experience is key in this and many other cases--the science will never be 100% proven either way and there is so much variation between individuals and wines.

Many hunter gatherer and other traditional peoples, wild orangutans, wild bears and other animals apparently prefer fermented ripenable fruits over nonfermented, especially when it produces alcohol. It doesn't make sense that nature would cause multiple species to prefer the foods that are most highly toxic and kill them.

Here's another thread on possible positive aspects of raw alcoholic foods and fruits:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/ketones-from-fruits-bark-and-alcohol-say-what/msg96159/#msg96159 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/ketones-from-fruits-bark-and-alcohol-say-what/msg96159/#msg96159)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 25, 2012, 07:07:09 am
FYI - in the studes a "glass" equals 5 ounces. I don't know about your wine glasses - but for mine that really means 1/2 a glass to 1 1/2 glasses - not 1-3 glasses. ;)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 25, 2012, 07:08:35 am
I don't know about your tsps, but mine contain less than 5-15 ounces.  :D Good to know what the actual total ounces are. I actually do use small glasses myself, and tend to only pour about 4-5 oz. of mead at a time. I've noticed that Asians tend to drink sake in small glasses too. I don't care much for wine glasses. Not sure how significant it is, but interesting coincidence, thanks.

Another issue with the studies is the chicken-and-egg problem. Are the people healthier just because they're drinking wine, or do already-healthier people tend to drink more wine than less healthy people?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 25, 2012, 09:00:21 am
Guess there's only one way to find out huh Phil! Makes sense that something like honey would ferment in the open air, but the only way to know is to try. I'll add some water to honey from our bees which I know is raw and leave it open. The only thing I'm concerned about is evaporation of the moisture, I would think it would happen fast in a sugar, especially one with biological activity. Also, like Dorothy said in reference to something else earlier, you might lose the alcohol in the process too, which would be a plus to me, but probably not most people.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 25, 2012, 09:15:04 am
Can you please remind me how much honey and how much water you mix together?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 25, 2012, 09:21:15 am
I didn't measure anything, hold on a sec, I'll do it in the same jar I did last time and see what the proportions look like.

EDIT: Alright, the jar doesn't say on it, but it looks like a half pint mason jar to me. I put in 4 Tbsp honey and then filled it half way with water and that's how I did it last time. But I can't say that that matters and I would think you could saturate the water with a lot more honey. Of course I also can't say that it doesn't matter because that is what worked for me last time and I don't really have anything to compare it with. I'm going to give it a go again and leave the top off this time, we'll see what happens, hopefully you'll keep us abreast of your experiments too!
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 25, 2012, 09:49:26 am
OMG, I just read the 'real' way to make mead, yuck first of all, and second, what a pain in the ass. I don't know if this 'just add water' technique is producing mead, but it is producing some kind of alcoholic brew, because there is no doubt, it is strong stuff when done, to the point that towards the end it was getting unpleasant in my coffee.

This time around, variables in my experiment are as follows...

-I'm using our own honey from our own bees, whereas before I was using my favorite local honey by Homestead Apiaries, awesome stuff, never met anyone who wasn't thrilled with it.
-Using same water, our exquisite well water, but this time structured because I told it I loved it when I bottled it last night, and wrote it on the label, 'I love you'.
-Also told the honey I loved it just for funsies...and cuz I do!
-Leaving uncapped at all times, temp will vary with room temps, though I will have some paper towel rubber banded over it to keep flies and ants out, whereas last time I had the standard lid on there and it was uncapped every day or so, at least once to pour in to my coffee.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 25, 2012, 10:14:43 am
Most of the studies I've seen reported benefits from 1-3 glasses of wine per day, not tsps, and they tend to call it "moderate wine consumption." It's hard to prove one way or the other, though, and some people are far more prone to alcoholism than others and not all alcoholic beverages or wines are the same, so YMMV. That's why personal experience is key in this and many other cases--the science will never be 100% proven either way and there is so much variation between individuals and wines.

Many hunter gatherer and other traditional peoples, wild orangutans, wild bears and other animals apparently prefer fermented ripenable fruits over nonfermented, especially when it produces alcohol. It doesn't make sense that nature would cause multiple species to prefer the foods that are most highly toxic and kill them.

Here's another thread on possible positive aspects of raw alcoholic foods and fruits:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/ketones-from-fruits-bark-and-alcohol-say-what/msg96159/#msg96159 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/ketones-from-fruits-bark-and-alcohol-say-what/msg96159/#msg96159)

Phil, now I know that you're not prone to saying things you cannot back up... however...... I think you might have a bit of trouble on this one.

As we all know, studies are frequently done to prove the predetermined truth. The truth that the company or country (France) wishes you to believe.

The people that I know who drink amounts like that, end up at a certain point in their life in the care of physicians of some variety or another with serious issues. The pilots I know who consume like that have lost their medicals or come very close to it in their 50's. You can't fake your way through a medical. Then they suddenly 'get religion' and nary a drop of whatever passes their lips namore.

This is not a moral judgement of mine, I don't have a horse in the race.

I doubt that hunter gatherers or bears drank 1 - 3 glasses of wine per day.  ;D

The only case of consuming fermented fruit is the one that I saw on the youtube  ;D African Animals Getting Drunk From Ripe Marula Fruit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5E5TjkDvU0#ws)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 25, 2012, 11:39:01 am
The people that you know that drink one glass of wine a day (5 ounces) end up with serious issues Al? Pilots lose their licenses?

How many people Al have you known that drink one glass of wine a day and have ended up so sick? Are you sure it was the one glass of wine a day and not other things? How many of those people are like Troll and eat a raw paleo diet and how many eat cakes and cookies and lots of fried foods too?

This time Al you are refuting the scientific data that Phil posted with incredibly unspecific anecdotes from your life. It's like if I said, "I knew this guy who ate raw eggs and ended up in the hospital" or the like.

5 - 15 ounces is the range. Please give us specifically how much the people you knew drank, how often, what kind of drink and what diseases you think they suffered from drinking it.

You know I love ya Al. This one though - gotta ask you for more hard data.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 25, 2012, 07:34:56 pm
Thanks Dorothy, and I already acknowledged that the studies don't prove anything conclusively one way or another. That comes down to personal experience, and if there's a history of alcoholism in the family, it might be prudent to not experiment.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 25, 2012, 11:19:41 pm
The people that you know that drink one glass of wine a day (5 ounces) end up with serious issues Al? Pilots lose their licenses?

How many people Al have you known that drink one glass of wine a day and have ended up so sick? Are you sure it was the one glass of wine a day and not other things? How many of those people are like Troll and eat a raw paleo diet and how many eat cakes and cookies and lots of fried foods too?

This time Al you are refuting the scientific data that Phil posted with incredibly unspecific anecdotes from your life. It's like if I said, "I knew this guy who ate raw eggs and ended up in the hospital" or the like.

5 - 15 ounces is the range. Please give us specifically how much the people you knew drank, how often, what kind of drink and what diseases you think they suffered from drinking it.

You know I love ya Al. This one though - gotta ask you for more hard data.
Yes pilots lose their licenses for medical reasons and it's getting more commonplace as Doctors are obliged to report to gov't agencies. Past the age of 40 we get checked twice a year.

The people were not on a rpd as the people in the studies that Phil proffered and is also not the case with the very vast majority of the human race. RPD does not make one instantly invulnerable, nor does anything raw. Raw sewage would probably not be a good idea, fermented or otherwise.

The statement was 1 -3 glasses per day, and the studies I seriously doubt were on raw wines, however, I cannot imagine that drinking 3 glasses of wine would result in anything less than a lush. The thing is that these studies are typically loosey goosey nonsense not controlled for anything...

I you want to consume anything, go for it. Do not let fear hold you back. There is only one way to find out. Most people that I hang out with do and they are not dropping off like flies, but they tend to be regulars at the Docs is what I am saying.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 25, 2012, 11:29:34 pm
The original question was whether raw wine was healthier than regular wine.

My answer was roughly that small amounts are but in the amounts that people typically consume it is not.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 26, 2012, 03:03:47 am
Ok - I see Al. So you are saying that it's that people drink too much once they get started. That's often true - but not always. There are a lot of people that can and do stick to one glass.

I think a lot of it is about habit and cultural programming.

I'm going to try it and see if I can stick to just 5 ounces in the evening when I feel like it would be good for me. I've always thought of alcohol as simply bad all around. The problem with thinking that it's bad, evil whatever is that if you think any amount is bad then there's no reason to stop.

If 5 ounces is good more could be bad - that changes for me how I think about the stuff.

I like the idea of being able to drink socially. It's freeing. It's a lot like being able to eat meat at someone home. I'm enjoying these new freedoms.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 26, 2012, 03:59:03 am
What I am saying has nothing to do with whether you should or shouldn't or if God will strike ya down, it is just a physical fact.

Dr Amen in his books describes reduced blood flow to the brain of people who consume (any and particularly regularly) alcohol. This is not just during the act but the long term effect of it. It's also not a guess, as he is using brain scanning equipment which does not make up a story or depend on 'studies'.

Autopsies of people who consume lots of alcohol also show this in the brain/body when compared with non-drinkers.

It's not like it you drink 2 - 4 glasses of wine/alcohol a day you suddenly are  a falling down wastrell.

Alcohol is used to kill bacteria in open wounds, so why would it act differently in the gut/blood system etc?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 26, 2012, 04:24:55 am
I think I get what you are trying to say Al.

What I'm asking is when you say "lots of alcohol" what are you talking about?

Did Amen do tests on people that have a small glass of wine with dinner each night - or just once or twice a week? 

Obviously an alcoholic is going to have a shriveled brain and nasty liver. I think though what Troll and Phil are talking about is quite different.

Also, I was shocked at what they consider a glass of wine in the studies. Most people unless they are particularly sensitive wouldn't get sloshed with 5 ounces. 10 ounces or 15 ounces maybe a tiny bit tipsy? Certainly not enough to keep them from driving. Most restaurant servings would be probably closer to 10 than 5 ounces. One of my wine glasses, which are normal every day wine glasses that you see everywhere, hold 12 ounces. One of my glasses would be considered 2 glasses of wine in the studies. Certainly - if you are thinking about those regular glass servings 3 glasses would be way too much. That would be 30 ounces instead of 5 - 15. 

I think we have to talk in ounces not in glasses and be specific about results from how much wine we are talking about.

Kombucha with some alcohol and mead etc. still provide good bacteria to the gut. We're not talking about everclear here. It's a question of degree I think.

Almost every food can have bad effects/attributes ESPECIALLY if made in ways that are
non-traditional/chemicalized/highly heated etc., and when they are ingested in too high of quantities or too often. The question is always is how much you are eating drinking tipping things to the overall positive side or the overall negative side.

I don't think I should stop eating fruit or nuts because if I eat more than what is right for me I get ill-effects. I know that when I eat the right amount I get really good effects, even if they both have some things in them that could be very bad if taken in excess.

I'm starting to wonder if the same holds for wine?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 26, 2012, 04:32:17 am
Did Amen do tests on people that have a small glass of wine with dinner each night - or just once or twice a week? 
I don't have the time to search the book for the exact quote, but basically he says that alcohol causes brain damage... period. Drink a little get a little damage, drink a lot, get a lot of damage. Your choice.

He didn't do a study of specifics, just goes by what people tell him and those who lie are only lying to themselves as any fool can see it. After 10,000 scans patterns emerge.

Doctors tell you it does no damage. That's good for business for them. These same quacks tell you chemo is good for cancer.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 26, 2012, 04:47:59 am
You know that I respect Amen - because that's hard science with actual brain scans. Watching what coffee does to people's brains directly afterward drinking in terms of blood flow made the biggest impact of any argument to me.

It's just hard to evaluate what you are saying with Amen without the actual words. He has to go by what people say right? He's looking at long-term brain damage, not take this drink and then we take the scan right?

Also, when someone says they have a drink or two - that might be 20 - 30 ounces instead of what we are talking about here and we don't know what they actually drank right - like wine or vodka do we? 

I'd really love more information on his actual results - whenever and if ever you have the time. I should really just get his book myself and see I guess.

For him to say a little you get a little damage and a lot you get a lot of damage would take some seriously extensive studies. Those would be quite interesting.

I really don't want to touch the stuff if it will reduce the blood flow to my brain. I need that thing. ;)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2012, 06:08:03 am
Since you challenged whether I could back up what I wrote, I hope you won't mind my asking some questions, Raw Al.

[Dr. Amen] didn't do a study of specifics, just goes by what people tell him and those who lie are only lying to themselves as any fool can see it. After 10,000 scans patterns emerge.
These studies are based on what people say. There is a wide gulf between what people say and do.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/is-alcohol-good-for-us/msg93210/#msg93210 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/is-alcohol-good-for-us/msg93210/#msg93210)
Can you please explain this, Raw Al? Don't these points contradict?

Like you hinted at, Al, I go where the evidence takes me and don't just take the word of any expert or guru that comes along without asking for back up of their claims, and like you I don't have a horse in the race. Whichever horse the evidence favors, so be it. So did Dr. Amen publish his scan research and can you point me to a link or study title so I can check it out? Sorry, but I'm not going to spend time reading anyone's entire book without first checking whether they have any substance behind their claims (and I doubt you'd read an entire book just because I told you to). Was his research double-blinded and peer-reviewed? Has anyone replicated his results with scans of their own or other tests, or tested his methods or the device he uses? Does he have any conflicts of interest, such as products or books he sells or religious views on alcohol?

... I cannot imagine that drinking 3 glasses of wine would result in anything less than a lush.
You're not claiming that your inability to imagine that represents evidence or invalidates any studies or anyone else's experience, are you?

The original question was whether raw wine was healthier than regular wine.

My answer was roughly that small amounts are but in the amounts that people typically consume it is not.
What are you basing that answer on? Has Dr. Amen or anyone else investigated the health effects raw wine?

Alcohol is used to kill bacteria in open wounds, so why would it act differently in the gut/blood system etc?
Honey and coconut oil also are used to kill bacteria in wounds and I haven't heard of them causing any substantial harm in the gut/blood system in the general population. That's not to say that alcohol is the same as honey or coconut oil, just that your question seems to be a non sequitur.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 27, 2012, 06:35:44 am
Since you challenged whether I could back up what I wrote, I hope you won't mind my asking some questions, Raw Al.
Can you please explain this, Raw Al? Don't these points contradict?
They are referring to two different conversations.
1 - My mention of Dr. Amen's brain scans
2 - your mention of studies that show......
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 27, 2012, 06:39:38 am
You're not claiming that your inability to imagine that represents evidence or invalidates any studies or anyone else's experience, are you?
Yikes three negatives! Did you go to law school ?  ;D
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 27, 2012, 06:58:35 am
What are you basing that answer on? Has Dr. Amen or anyone else investigated the health effects raw wine?
OK so where is your research done doble blind etc, on how raw wine is inoffensive to the body?

The 'research' to which you alluded was not on raw wine and not on RPDers and I cannot imagine how it was done double blind.

Dr Amen started out as a psychiatrist (clinical neuroscientist, psychiatrist, and brain imaging expert who heads the world-renowned Amen Clinics. This comes from the jacket on his book.) who had the usual SAD diet, no exercise and worked his *ss off. Typical modern person.

At some point he had some issues which led to him changing directions in life, exploring diets, exercise, etc, probably like most people on this site.

Can't recall exactly at what point he discovered : "single photon emission computed tomography, (SPECT) a nuclear medicine study that looks at blood flow and activity patterns. It looks at how the brain works.

It is different from computerized axial tomography (CAT) or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans which are anatomical scans that show what the brain physically looks like. SPECT shows how the brain functions. Over the last 22 years, Amen Clinics has built the largest database of brain SPECT, now totalling over seventy thousand scans on patients from 90 different countries.

In his book he shows lots of pics of brain scans of people with healthy brains (smooth, soft curves, lush full appearance) and unhealthy brains ( full of craters, holes, missing sections, bumps, etc depending on the severity of personal abuse)

As far as the studies you mention, that stuff is hogwash. How do you prove how much someone drinks daily. Nobody wants to admit the full extent of the alcohol use/abuse. Generally people underestimate their alcohol use just like people who overeat tend to do. Those studies I saw were that people who 'reported'  ;) drinking such and such.

Since he is a therapist, he interviews people personally and after scanning them talks to them and gets to the truth or at least closer than what a researcher would.

The people who go to his clinic pay for the service and he simply shows them the results and gives recommendations based on what he sees and from understanding;
brain physiology and
seeing how when people change habits and the effect it garners
he indicates a course of action for them.

I think he is Jewish but I am not positive. I think that Jews are not prohibited from alcohol use.

He says in some places in his book  (essentially) for people to eliminate or seriously cut down on alcohol use.

Alcohol is not the only thing that he mentions. Recreation and allopathic drugs, brain injury are biggies and he has some football players who have gone to him for treatment and have given up lucrative careers because of his showing them what the results of football are. He is really down on allopathic drugs and discusses at length why psychiatrists prescribe them and why they are generally useless, counterproductive and addictive.

He sells various things for brain health including supplements, but he also suggests it is best to get them naturally. Some extreme cases he would point people towards supplements. However this has nothing to do with alcohol consumption or this conversation.

Our bodies are capable of handling various and sundry types of abuse and surviving and he shows lots of case histories of people who mended their ways and saw dramatic changes in brain health.

You are free to believe what you want about alcohol BTW, but bear one thing in mind, what you have told me so far is your 'belief', AND what I have given is my 'belief' based on a loose bit of the evidence from his scans. Loose because it is not a RPDer consuming raw wine.

In Ayurveda alcohol is considered to be a super-sweet taste and it is a substitute for love, in the same way that sugar in general is.

I agree with your discussion about high meat etc. and I know people who ate their own version of raw meat as a large staple part of their diet,  but what my statement was/is that drinking any more than a small amount of raw alcohol periodically, is not a health inducing habit.

BTW he mentions nothing about our diet and if I had the money to throw around I would find it fascinating for someone who is a long-time hard core RPDer to have a scan to see what there is to see. I think we'd come up smelling roses.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Alive on July 27, 2012, 07:09:55 am
Thanks Al for giving me a reason not to drink wine, at least not often, this could save me a lot of money, and anyway my wife is a keen wine drinker so best for me to leave it all for her... and spend my money on something more fun  -d 

Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2012, 07:17:46 am
Quote
Quote from: raw-al on Yesterday at 03:32:17 pm
[Dr. Amen] didn't do a study of specifics, just goes by what people tell him and those who lie are only lying to themselves as any fool can see it. After 10,000 scans patterns emerge.

Quote from: raw-al on June 02, 2012, 12:40:27 pm
These studies are based on what people say. There is a wide gulf between what people say and do.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/is-alcohol-good-for-us/msg93210/#msg93210 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/is-alcohol-good-for-us/msg93210/#msg93210)

They are referring to two different conversations.
1 - My mention of Dr. Amen's brain scans
2 - your mention of studies that show......
Yes, could that perhaps be why you didn't notice the seeming contradiction? In the case of the studies you indicated that "studies" have a problem of being based "on what people say" because "There is a wide gulf between what people say and do," whereas in the case of Dr. Amen it is apparently OK that he "just goes by what people tell him," even though some apparently "lie." Would you please explain this?

Yikes three negatives! Did you go to law school ?  ;D
So you choose not to answer the question? How about any of my other questions? I'll answer yours--no, I did not go to law school. ;D I do like to ask questions and swap information, though. I find it to be a good way to learn things and I enjoy learning. I don't find I learn as much when I just tell people stuff. I occasionally encounter folks who don't like questions, so if you don't want to answer, that's fine.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: PaleoPhil on Today at 05:08:03 pm
What are you basing that answer on? Has Dr. Amen or anyone else investigated the health effects raw wine?
OK so where is your research done doble blind etc, on how raw wine is inoffensive to the body?
Isn't the one who makes the claim generally the one who provides the research? I don't even drink wine (didn't find one that suited me well, though I might try raw wine out of curiosity if that ever becomes feasible--so far one brand of mead is the only alcoholic beverage I've found that I seem to tolerate well enough to drink more than 10 oz. at a time and more frequently than rare occasions) and am not recommending it to anyone, nor do I want anyone emulating me (I would rather that folks think for themselves), and like I said, I have no horse in the race. I've been a teetotaler in the past and I might even return to that some day.

It's just hard to evaluate what you are saying with Amen without the actual words. He has to go by what people say right? He's looking at long-term brain damage, not take this drink and then we take the scan right?

Also, when someone says they have a drink or two - that might be 20 - 30 ounces instead of what we are talking about here and we don't know what they actually drank right - like wine or vodka do we? 
Yes, excellent questions, Dorothy. Very open-minded of you. Thank you for helping me understand this topic better.

I know it's a controversial topic, but I'm not afraid of controversial topics, and sometimes the most verboten things can be some of the most interesting. Take high meat, for example. Society regards that as disgusting and deadly, yet I learned from people at this forum like Tyler that it actually may be health-promoting. I also learned about raw ale from Tyler. Before that I wasn't aware that there were any raw alcoholic beverages. And I've learned a number of interesting things from you, Dorothy, on other topics besides this one.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 27, 2012, 07:09:29 pm
EDIT: Alright, the jar doesn't say on it, but it looks like a half pint mason jar to me. I put in 4 Tbsp honey and then filled it half way with water and that's how I did it last time. But I can't say that that matters and I would think you could saturate the water with a lot more honey.
A half pint mason jar would be 1 cup, right? So half of that would be 1/2 cup. That seems small. Are you sure it wasn't more water?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 27, 2012, 07:20:47 pm
You have to remember I was only using it as sweetener and I use very little, I wasn't intending to ferment anything, that was an accident. When I'm out and I get a coffee on the go I don't sweeten it with anything at all, only add cream. I agree it is very small. But I'll keep you updated on this batch, I have it sitting on top of the fridge with a paper towel rubberbanded over as a lid.

And I'm not 100% certain about anything, I'm just trying to recreate what I did before to the best of my ability, that was a year ago or more, now and I was getting super baked at the time becuase I had grown a ton of reefer and was basically just working the farm and another local job. Experiment at your own risk with this info.

The basic info is correct though, half pint mason jar, raw honey, well water, sealed airtight, aired once a day or so at coffee/smoothie time in the morning, then resealed. Since people make different sweetness/dryness levels of mead when they make it with recipes, I would speculate that a different ratio of water to honey would simply affect that aspect of it, but won't know until further experimentation.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: svrn on July 27, 2012, 08:40:23 pm
havent gotten a chance to read all the replies yet. just updating that I drank about a third of a bottle of wine yesterday and did not like the feeling of being drunk AT ALL. Maybe if i did half as much id feel better but at this point i dont know if I even want to try again.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: svrn on July 27, 2012, 08:47:14 pm
also I just glimpsed that someone said alcohol has been proven to cause brain damage 100%. All I have to say is, which alcohol was used? To say all fat is bad for you because a study proved that using gm soybean oil as their fat does not mean that other fats like raw suet are bad for you. But it also doesnt mean that something like raw organic wine isnt bad for you, im just saying, making such a statement as alc always does brain damage isnt very logical because ud need to study the particular type of alc such as raw organic wine.

I am totally open to raw wine causing brain damage though. especially after last nights experience.

also i think theres something to aajonus' claim that raw wine dissolves hardened fat deposits. Although I feel worse overall, I do feel that some things in my body have been "cleared" or broken down/flushed out and that I may feel better for it later. Like a mini detox or something.

perhaps a smaller dose would be appropriate.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 27, 2012, 11:15:08 pm
Yes, could that perhaps be why you didn't notice the seeming contradiction? In the case of the studies you indicated that "studies" have a problem of being based "on what people say" because "There is a wide gulf between what people say and do," whereas in the case of Dr. Amen it is apparently OK that he "just goes by what people tell him," even though some apparently "lie." Would you please explain this?
This is in reference to the fact that in studies, people are all asked a specific set of questions and there is a reliance on their honesty/memory to answer the questions, whereas in the case of a therapist like Dr. Amen, the people are asked questions about history of things such as alcohol consumption, diet and brain trauma. After the scans are complete and the therapist sees that there is an obvious difference between what they say and what shows up on the scan, the therapist can probe deeper with questions that might spark memories. This is not unusual and frequently even having a spouse or parent around who remembers things from the past or remembers how much a person 'really' actually drinks brings clarity or facts into the equation. With a questionnaire this is missing and therefore introduces large errors.

I know that my wife remembers details that have long escaped my conscious recall.  ;) :( ??? -[
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 28, 2012, 02:22:38 am
I've been actually measuring wine in ounces Troll to experiment. Half a bottle of wine I know would put me under the table, give me a splitting headache and affect my functioning the next day. I'm not sure though that it means that drinking  less wouldn't be actually good. There are approximately 25 ounces in an average bottle of wine, so it is true that your half a bottle is still under the 3 glasses of wine limit (15 ounces). But I've also considered that because we eat differently our limit as to how much could be still beneficial might be different. So far, I've determined that 4 and 5 ounces of wine has little affect on me except mild enjoyment and relaxation which I imagine could possibly be beneficial. Which, I might add, is much less of an impact as even 1 ounce of coffee! As far as I'm concerned, for my system, coffee is much more deleterious in any amount and is much more addictive.

I'll do my experiments and report as this subject greatly interests me. I agree Phil that there are so many things that I never even contemplated as possibly good for me that I have learned are actually good for me from you. I'm willing to try this being very careful to be as honest as I can be with myself and you while using my measuring cup for accuracy.

I'm surprised that there is no manufacturer of traditional raw mead in the world. That would be much better to experiment with.

Have you discovered any more reasonably priced wines that you know for sure are raw Phil? The problem with drinking 4 or 5 ounces even if it's every day is that wine is supposed to be only kept open for 3 days in the refrigerator and if the wine is expensive that doesn't work well financially.

When it comes down to it - none of the studies really count including Amen when it comes to me or us because of our diets. No one can tell me for instance that a cup of coffee is good for me each day - and I know that because I know my own system. The only way I think to determine whether a little bit of alcohol is going to be good for me is to try it. I'm very used to trying things out on myself and listening to my body.

This will be a most interesting experiment.

Title: Re: wine
Post by: Haai on July 28, 2012, 05:23:02 am
I'm surprised that there is no manufacturer of traditional raw mead in the world.

There is.

Just to contribute to the topic of the thread: I have drank half a bottle of red wine every day for the past couple of weeks; occasionally a whole bottle. The only problem I notice is the urge to smoke a joint afterwards (especially after drinking a whole bottle), but I usually do not give in to the urge.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 28, 2012, 05:57:38 am
Do you have a link for that source for raw mead please Haai?
Mead would keep better for my experiments and then I can be sure I am using a truly raw product.
Thanks.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 28, 2012, 06:44:00 am
@Thoth:
The basic info is correct though, half pint mason jar, raw honey, well water, sealed airtight, aired once a day or so at coffee/smoothie time in the morning, then resealed.
Thanks. Brief tangent--What sort of smoothies do you make?

@Raw Al:
After the scans are complete and the therapist sees that there is an obvious difference between what they say and what shows up on the scan, the therapist can probe deeper with questions that might spark memories. This is not unusual and frequently even having a spouse or parent around who remembers things from the past or remembers how much a person 'really' actually drinks brings clarity or facts into the equation.
That would influence the data when some people are asked additional questions but not others, and possibly also suggest memories to the subject that did not actually happen. Some people are more suggestible than others. Just ask any hypnotist or hypnotherapist. What you're describing sounds more like clinical therapy than scientific research. Not that there's no value to it, but (as with surveys) clinical experience can only suggest hypotheses, not be considered proof or even solid evidence. If Dr. Amen is claiming that that is hard evidence, then I doubt that it has been peer reviewed.

@Troll:
making such a statement as alc always does brain damage isnt very logical because ud need to study the particular type of alc such as raw organic wine.
Yup, that's one of the limitations of most or all of the research on alcoholic beverages.

@Dorothy:
I've been actually measuring wine in ounces Troll to experiment. Half a bottle of wine I know would put me under the table, give me a splitting headache and affect my functioning the next day.
If I get that kind of reaction, then I don't touch the stuff again. I kept experimenting, usually the oldest, most traditional sorts of fermented beverages I could find, until I found some that had less negative effects, including one local mead in particular (WARNING: some other meads did a nasty number on me, so I found a huge range of effects even within the mead category).

Quote
Have you discovered any more reasonably priced wines that you know for sure are raw Phil?
Nope. I found an online seller of non-mevushal raw wines, but the shipping cost was too much for my level of interest.

Quote
The problem with drinking 4 or 5 ounces even if it's every day is that wine is supposed to be only kept open for 3 days in the refrigerator and if the wine is expensive that doesn't work well financially.
Yeah, when it comes to wine, I think it helps if you have a family of wine drinkers, as traditional wine-drinking societies like France tend to, so that the bottle gets shared and consumed within one day.

Quote
When it comes down to it - none of the studies really count including Amen when it comes to me or us because of our diets. No one can tell me for instance that a cup of coffee is good for me each day - and I know that because I know my own system.
Yeah, there's quite a range of reports on coffee too, with some saying it has very negative effects to others claiming great benefits. Speaking of which, I've been experimenting with the lowest-heated coffee process I can manage, after doing some research online. I buy the lightest beans I can find (lighter means roasted at lower temps) and use a french press to make the coffee without using heat. So far the only benefit of this lower-heat process I notice is somewhat less belching, which doesn't surprise me, because I notice that the more a liquid (or some foods) is heated, the more I tend to belch. I don't know what causes that, though--maybe the heating makes it less digestible? It's rather odd and I don't expect anyone to believe me. Has anyone else experienced this?

@Haai:
Just to contribute to the topic of the thread: I have drank half a bottle of red wine every day for the past couple of weeks; occasionally a whole bottle. The only problem I notice is the urge to smoke a joint afterwards (especially after drinking a whole bottle), but I usually do not give in to the urge.
I notice that if I drink mead too many days in a row I start to develop a gunky film on my teeth and morning breath. I suspect that the carby liquid feeds the bacteria in my mouth. I'm more susceptible to issues from easily-digested carbs than most people.


Thanks for the input, folks.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: cherimoya_kid on July 28, 2012, 11:05:05 am
I notice that the more a liquid (or some foods) is heated, the more I tend to belch. I don't know what causes that, though--maybe the heating makes it less digestible? It's rather odd and I don't expect anyone to believe me. Has anyone else experienced this?

@Haai:I notice that if I drink mead too many days in a row I start to develop a gunky film on my teeth and morning breath. I suspect that the carby liquid feeds the bacteria in my mouth. I'm more susceptible to issues from easily-digested carbs than most people.


It's possible you're swallowing more air when you drink hotter liquids. It might not be conscious at this point, just something you learned to do to avoid burning your mouth.

As far as the teeth film, I find that vitamin D seems to help in reducing that.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 28, 2012, 11:12:34 am
Quote
If I get that kind of reaction, then I don't touch the stuff again. I kept experimenting, usually the oldest, most traditional sorts of fermented beverages I could find, until I found some that had less negative effects, including one local mead in particular (WARNING: some other meads did a nasty number on me, so I found a huge range of effects even within the mead category).

My question is whether it is just an issue of quantity. Half a bottle =  terrible reaction. 5 ounces =  positive reaction (as far as I can tell at this point with limited trial).

Phil - do you have sources where I could buy mead from? Mead would have an extended shelf-life unlike wine right?
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Haai on July 28, 2012, 03:16:33 pm
Do you have a link for that source for raw mead please Haai?
Mead would keep better for my experiments and then I can be sure I am using a truly raw product.
Thanks.

http://www.detraay.com/index-nl.php?url=http%3A//www.detraay.com/page.php%3Fident%3D1%26header%3D5%26lang%3Deng%26lang%3D%26lang%3Deng (http://www.detraay.com/index-nl.php?url=http%3A//www.detraay.com/page.php%3Fident%3D1%26header%3D5%26lang%3Deng%26lang%3D%26lang%3Deng)

I have no idea if they ship to the US, but if they do I am sure it will cost a fortune. Here in NL the bottle made with normal honey (literal translation of bloemenhoning is flower honey) costs about 12 euros and the one made with heather honey about 14 euros.

I contacted the company via email asking about whether it has been heated or not. They said it never gets warmer than 40 C in order to keep all the valuable substances in the honey intact.

You will notice that the website is in Dutch. It seems if you click on the little British flag (or any of the other flags) in the top right corner to change the language, the mead disappears...quite strange.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Haai on July 28, 2012, 03:25:05 pm

@Haai: I notice that if I drink mead too many days in a row I start to develop a gunky film on my teeth and morning breath. I suspect that the carby liquid feeds the bacteria in my mouth. I'm more susceptible to issues from easily-digested carbs than most people.


I would also say that the carbs cause that gunky film on the teeth.

I havn't drank mead more than one or two days in a row, mainly because of the price. For one bottle of mead I can get 2 bottles of decent organic, no-sulphites-added red wine.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 28, 2012, 08:42:39 pm
@Raw Al:That would influence the data when some people are asked additional questions but not others, and possibly also suggest memories to the subject that did not actually happen. Some people are more suggestible than others. Just ask any hypnotist or hypnotherapist. What you're describing sounds more like clinical therapy than scientific research. Not that there's no value to it, but (as with surveys) clinical experience can only suggest hypotheses, not be considered proof or even solid evidence. If Dr. Amen is claiming that that is hard evidence, then I doubt that it has been peer reviewed.
Phil, Where is your peer reviewed scientific research to back your claims of raw alcohol being a healthy choice?

I at no point claimed that Dr Amen had done scientific research.

As far as false memory syndrome, that's a stretch. In fact false memory syndrome is surrounded by all kinds of silliness. He essentially asked all of his patients the same questions. If a person showed obvious signs of  brain damage he would ask more questions because one of the symptoms of brain damage is memory loss. This has nothing to do with alcohol.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 29, 2012, 04:17:12 am
It's possible you're swallowing more air when you drink hotter liquids.
Thanks for the thought--it's a possible factor I'll try to remember to watch, though I notice it even if the liquid is cold when I drink it--even iced. In reading about coffee, I learned that the hotter and longer it's roasted, the more acidic it becomes, which it occurs to me could be a factor in the belching with coffee and other beverages that involve heat in the process.

My question is whether it is just an issue of quantity. Half a bottle =  terrible reaction. 5 ounces =  positive reaction (as far as I can tell at this point with limited trial).
Maybe, though in my case I don't get that bad a reaction from my best-tolerated alcoholic beverage even if I drink 1.5 bottles worth (750 ml), though I fare better if I keep intake below 1 bottle (500 ml / 16.9 oz).

Quote
Phil - do you have sources where I could buy mead from? Mead would have an extended shelf-life unlike wine right?
Not in my home, LOL. Sorry, it's only sold in Vermont. I would look for local artisanal/craft mead, if there is any in your area.

A trick to help spot unpasteurized alcoholic beverages finally dawned on me. Tyler explained that you can tell unpasteurized (cask) ale by the metal wire and cork on the top. Then when I read that champagne is raw, I realized that it too has a wire and cork top. Then someone mentioned that unpasteurized hard cider also has wire and cork stoppers. It still took some days for it to fully dawn on me and start looking around in the liquor store and beer/wine/mead-selling markets for bottles with wires on the top to see what else is probably unpasteurized.

In using this trick I found a bottle-conditioned fig wine. I like figs, so I tried it. It tasted horrible, was extremely bubbly, and gave me gas and a mild feeling of malaise. No euphoric effect at all. I ended up dumping most of it out.

There are apparently unpasteurized alcoholic beverages that do not have wire/cork tops. Sierra Nevada claims that all of their brews are unpasteurized (http://jarticle.hubpages.com/hub/Unpasteurized_Beers (http://jarticle.hubpages.com/hub/Unpasteurized_Beers)), yet most of them do not have the wire/cork top. Sho Chiku Bai Nama Sake is claimed to be unpasteurized, yet it too does not have a wire/cork top. I think the wire and cork is only needed if the yeast is still alive and actively emitting gas, possibly causing pressure to build up and blow a standard cap off the bottle. It's possible to have no live yeast left in an unpasteurized beverage. It's apparently also possible for some critters that actively ferment to not cause a lot of pressure buildup from emitted gas, such as in kombucha, kefir and other fermented beverages sold in markets that don't have wire/cork tops. Blogger Seth Roberts recently reported that store-bought kombucha contains live critters that can be used as a starter for making your own, yet they don't have wire/cork tops. The wire/cork top is one clue, but not lack of it does not necessarily guarantee that the beverage is not unpasteurized, so Internet searching, checking labels and asking around also helps.

I suspect that some beverages with wire/cork tops could be heated--they could just add live yeast back after heating, so that it can bottle-condition (continue to ferment).

It's interesting that a pasteurized mead has less negative effects on me than several unpasteurized and bottle-conditioned alcoholic beverages, including the real ale I tried. Heat and bottle conditioning do not appear to be the only factors for me.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on July 29, 2012, 05:06:06 am
I know it's a controversial topic, but I'm not afraid of controversial topics, and sometimes the most verboten things can be some of the most interesting. Take high meat, for example. Society regards that as disgusting and deadly, yet I learned from people at this forum like Tyler that it actually may be health-promoting. I also learned about raw ale from Tyler. Before that I wasn't aware that there were any raw alcoholic beverages. And I've learned a number of interesting things from you, Dorothy, on other topics besides this one.
If you check out the thread "Is alcohol good for us" reply # 4 fron Tyler here is what it says...
As I recall, the data concerned only a lessening of 2 of the 17 different types of heterocyclic amines, one of the 4 different types of toxins created by cooking. Plus, it wasn't alcohol per se which reduced the levels of toxins - it is already well-known that cooking in moisture reduces the levels of various heat-created toxins. That said, outside the moisture aspect, alcohol is itself a poison, so it's not a good idea to reduce the levels of some types of poisons by adding another, quite different type of poison.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on July 29, 2012, 05:19:38 am
If you check out the thread "Is alcohol good for us" reply # 4 fron Tyler here is what it says...
I had read that. Are you suggesting that I was trying to imply that Tyler thinks that real ale is healthy? I wasn't commenting on that--just reporting that he tipped me off about its existence, that's all, nothing more.

IIRC, he has said in the past something about real ale being less unhealthy than pasteurized beer and ale (I do hope he'll correct me if my memory is off), but that doesn't necessarily mean he thinks it's inherently healthy--there's a difference.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 29, 2012, 07:11:24 am
I checked Whole Foods today for mead and they said that they were looking into getting some but didn't have any. I DID see some bottles with cork and wire today. That's a good clue. Thanks Phil (and Tyler?). I got some hard apple cider as I've never tried it and I did recently put in an apple tree - so if we ever get more than two apples I might have something interesting to do with them if we like it. ;) It's really too bad that the fig wine wasn't good as I am planting a bunch of fig trees and they do well here.

I tried doubling the wine to 10 ounces of the same kind that I was fine with at 5 ounces and it wasn't good. I mean - not really bad, but I could feel that it was not right for me and I shouldn't try that again. I'll try 6 ounces next time (of a different wine) to start to play with where that limit is. Wines (as much as I've been able to judge) in the past (as long as they are organic) all seem to effect me about the same. It's interesting Phil how you say that when a certain ferment is good for you, you feel fine even after a bottle and half. Do you get tipsy at that much? Do you think that the same good results as in the studies you sited would hold for any beverage besides wine? From what I remember it was red wine in particular that was talked about as being beneficially mostly.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: CitrusHigh on July 29, 2012, 12:41:30 pm
The smoothies I make vary from day to day, but always contain 2-5 eggs, usually 3 or 4 though, it just depends on what's available from the coop that day and if I need to save some for family.

Otherwise they also contain banana, and/or raw honey or honey water, usually just one sugar source at a time, I prefer banana usually because it also thickens the brew, but honey has a wonderful flavor too. Sometimes raw milk or cream, usually I won't bother if all I have is pasteurized grassfed cream.

The other day I happened to be cutting up kidney while I was making the smoothie so I decided to toss in a chunk since I had heard of people making liver smoothies to get it in to their children raw. Couldn't taste any difference, though there were the odd fibery bit here and there, no big and I think it would be child approved if they didn't know it was in there.

Sometimes I do other things with my smoothies, but that is the typical brew.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on July 30, 2012, 02:14:44 am
The hard apple cider was truly disgusting. One sip and I backed up like I was running from it and Brian laughed out loud at the look on my face. It smelled and tasted truly like rotten apples. We had apple trees growing up and that was what I remember - the horrible smell. I bet I ate some as a kid and had the same reaction.

Maybe if I made my own or if it was with a good honey? Who knows - but that experiment sure failed.

I'll stick to fresh apples.

Whereas I had some organic grapes yesterday and noticed that a small amount (4-5 ounces) of wine actually made me feel better than the grapes and tasted better.

Title: Re: wine
Post by: Dorothy on October 01, 2012, 12:24:24 pm
I want to report back on my findings. I've concluded that for me an occasional glass at a social occasion of 4-5 ounces of wine has little negative effects, but drinking any amount of wine every night over a period of time is most definitely a negative for me. It is much like dairy products and caffeine in that way. I feel very little immediate negative effects from having some and it can actually add to smoothing things socially and can create enjoyable tastes and serve transient positive purposes and even after months drinking it every night I wouldn't say it made me feel bad, but if used consistently creates definite negative imbalances to my system. I know this because when giving it up suddenly and completely after trying a period of drinking a glass every night my body felt much better generally. 

Too bad. :(  I really did hope that I could "party" (if you can call 4 ounces of wine a party) and still stay at peak - but it's really just not possible. I doubt that I am that different than others in this regard. It's really hard to give up the things that we enjoy and become so easily addicted to and I for one really wanted the research to prove that my party treats were actually good for me. I bet most of us do... so I am pretty sure that there will continue to be lots of research "proving" that these things are good for us. I would also like to add that perhaps these things are good for people on regular diets? I mean, wine is a digestive and the reservatrol might help battle the other negatives as well as balance the coffee and stresses etc. As raw paleos though we have a set the bar at a different height. I just think that it's not easy to be really honest with ourselves. I've tried to do just that.

I also tried special coffee with butter. It's exactly the same thing. I want it to be good for me - very much so - but the evidence is too clear to me that no amount of butter or how the coffee is processed changes the fact that in the long-run, coffee is depleting to my system.

Sugar, coffee, alcohol, dairy - they are all clearly addictive substances for me. They are things that I still will crave. As addictive substances I have taken tiny tastes here and there even when staying completely away from them - but always with the understanding that it has to be me running the show and not them, but after recent experiments I've actually decided to try staying completely away from any of them for a number of years to see with my present diet if the attraction will go away completely with a long enough hiatus without a morsel.

Always experimenting. :)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: goodsamaritan on October 01, 2012, 12:41:38 pm
Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: wine
Post by: Michelle on January 10, 2013, 02:33:12 am
Do not buy organic wines. They're full of sulphates.

Buy wine from New Zealand. They have the best pesticide standards.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: TylerDurden on January 10, 2013, 03:39:53 am
That's not true:-

http://www.ecovinewine.com/organic-sulfite-free-wines/ (http://www.ecovinewine.com/organic-sulfite-free-wines/)
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 10, 2013, 08:33:29 am
My experience suggests not to trust anyone's claims, nor one's own assumptions, but instead to test, test, test.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: cherimoya_kid on January 10, 2013, 11:00:11 am
My experience suggests not to trust anyone's claims, nor one's own assumptions, but instead to test, test, test.

it sucks that we live in a place and time where nutrition is so messed up.  "Test, test, test" is the worst position to have to be in.  It's a huge time-suck and energy-suck.

Oh well.  My good health is the reward, and the time I've spent researching and testing (and the time I still spend) is the cost.
Title: Re: wine
Post by: raw-al on January 12, 2013, 03:10:15 am
 
My experience suggests not to trust anyone's claims, nor one's own assumptions, but instead to test, test, test.
Phil, judging by your picture there you do a lot of testing ? Yes?  ;D
Title: Re: wine
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 12, 2013, 07:14:41 am
Yeah  ;D