Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Off Topic => Topic started by: majormark on January 05, 2013, 02:08:58 am
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Hello,
What's your understanding/ idea of the subject of extraterrestrial life?
I used to think that, while extraterrestrial life can exist and some ufo's seen may have been real, they were probably
just passing by earth and were more like "look at those primitives, let's go to a planet that is more cool".
After I checked out some of Bashar's videos, it seems to be an ongoing communication between us and them through
certain individuals with the scope of helping us evolve.
Bashar seems to be standing out because his message is right up with the most inspirational thinkers of our time.
A guy named Darryl Anka says he is channeling this being through telepathy since 25 years or so.
Well, regardless of the accuracy of his description, the messages are really empowering.
Some examples (of many on youtube):
Bashar on surrender, excitement and anxiety (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfL5IvZlSjU#)
BASHAR - Deplasare Prin Infinit (Shifting Through Infinity) 1 [RO] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhZFOzxT4k#)
He also talks about a natural diet and detox here:
BASHAR - Circuite Sacre (Sacred Circuits) 2 [RO] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fb_ifTnels#ws)
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I think humans are a product of faulty evolution through VERY poor dietary choices.
Ie. the more we've changed our diet and made it worse, the more we've improperly evolved.
I think the belief that extraterrestrials exist, ie. species that are similar to us in that they travel the stars, build things, etc. Is just to comfort humans and not make them feel like they're the only species of their kind.
I think most animals thoroughly enjoy that incredible health, and illness free lives they experience from their natural diets and lifestyles.
While I think there are animals on other planets, ie. other planets with life on them. I don't think there are other species similar to humans out there.
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Any ETs who investigated us would have wiped us out ages ago. So the notion that ETs exist is absurd.
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There are likely large numbers of intelligent ETs throughout the universe, that hopefully are also unable to travel such immense distances safely and afford-ably.
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There are likely large numbers of intelligent ETs throughout the universe, that hopefully are also unable to travel such immense distances safely and afford-ably.
I've never understood this logic.
On this planet, where there are countless different species. There is only ONE species like humans. In my opinion that makes the odds of other planets having life with species like humans very unlikely.
Animals seem very uninterested in clothes, technology, and exploring the universe. Which are all human traits. Makes me think humans are a one of a kind species.
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Any ETs who investigated us would have wiped us out ages ago. So the notion that ETs exist is absurd.
I don’t think it’s so simple and plain, Tyler. One could well say the opposite: the notion that we are the most advanced species in the Galaxy is anthropocentric and absurd. It’s funny because this article was just published yesterday:
Planets Abound: Astronomers Estimate That at Least 100 Billion Planets Populate the Galaxy (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130103143422.htm)
Even if one out of a hundred planets has currently life on it , that leaves an order of magnitude of one billion planets with some form of life in our Galaxy only. If life tends to evolve in a similar, negentropic way all over the Universe, which is likely, and if again only one out of hundred of those planets with life on it saw the emergence of intelligent beings, there could well have been more than one million societies of intelligent beings in the Galaxy. Few galactic societies would survive the mastery of fire and subsequent technologies, destroying their environment and thus self destroying themselves before being able to master interstellar travel. That would be a kind of “galactic selection”
(Cosmology: The Science of the Universe - Page 547 – ) (http://books.google.fr/books?id=kNxeHD2cbLYC&pg=PA547&lpg=PA547&dq=%E2%80%9Cgalactic+selection%E2%80%9D+harrison&source=bl&ots=h5dnT2r0f1&sig=dJw42f800oXZbashhZ0qBd6I86c&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=jTvnUPjPEuec0AWQrIDgCg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA)
ensuring that intelligent but destructive beings would self destroy in their “planet test tube” before being able to spread havoc elsewhere in their galaxy. So, the ones who could survive and master interstellar travel would not be destructive.
What would be their strategy? See Deardorff, J. W., Possible extraterrestrial strategy for earth, Royal Astronomical Society, Quarterly Journal (ISSN 0035-8738), vol. 27, March 1986, p. 94-101. (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1986QJRAS..27...94D)
Numerous studies of the past two decades have affirmed the likelihood
that many advanced extraterrestrial races or civilisations abound
within our own galaxy not to mention the neighbouring galaxies and the
rest of the universe. Through use of Drake’s equation the number of
planets within our own galaxy so inhabited, N, is usually placed in
the vicinity of 106, give or take a couple of orders of magnitude. The
extraterrestrials would presumably be advanced over us technologically
by anywhere from just a few thousand years to hundreds of millions of
years.
It has also been deduced with considerable agreement amongst
different investigators that the time for any one such race to
colonise all the hospitable planets in the galaxy is only of the order
of 100 million years or less based upon their travelling at speeds of
the order of 1 per cent of the speed of light, and assuming they would
spend a few thousand years consolidating each new planet before
setting out for the next. Even if the only motivation for migration
were to escape the fate of the parent star leaving the main sequence,
as many as 0.1 N extraterrestrial races are expected to have done this
by now. Thus, the chance that our ‘corner’ of the galaxy somehow
escaped the attention of advance extraterrestrial races be considered
very remote, assuming they exist.
At the same time it has of course been realised that no
extraterrestrial presence or communication has been detected through
radio-telescope searches or other astronomical means. This fact has
often led to the conclusion that mankind is unique within the galaxy
as a thinking being capable of pondering its own existence and
technologically able to explore its own Solar system and beyond. That
conclusion has been bolstered by studies which indicate the huge
improbability that life could have started [spontaneously]; ie. That
the necessary amino acids could ever have arranged themselves in just
the right way at the right time so as to make an aggregate of enzymes
capable of self-replication. This reasoning says, then, that life on
Earth,and mankind, is just a statistical fluke which by all odds
should not have happened, snd could thus be unique.
However, the above two arguments on uniqueness are usually rejected on
the grounds that the first life on Earth is kown to have started
after only a few hundred million years following Earth’s formation.
Since it did not wait a few thousand million years to start, there is
no indication that the initiation of life is a rare event relative to (…)
That whole paper is well thought and very interesting, as well as Harrison's book "Cosmology: The Science of the Universe" in my second link above.
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On this planet, where there are countless different species. There is only ONE species like humans. In my opinion that makes the odds of other planets having life with species like humans very unlikely.
Chimps and especially bonobos are very much like us. Let them a million more years and they may master the fire. They already use tools.
Animals seem very uninterested in clothes, technology, and exploring the universe. Which are all human traits. Makes me think humans are a one of a kind species.
Our Homo Erectus ancestors and such were not really interested in clothes, automotive technology and exploring the Galaxy either. ;)
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Chimps and especially bonobos are very much like us. Let them a million more years and they may master the fire. They already use tools.
Our Homo Erectus ancestors and such were not really interested in clothes, automotive technology and exploring the Galaxy either. ;)
I still don't see mastering fire for use in cooking as beneficial, and I feel it would lead to "unevolving," even for chimps and bonobos.
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for what its worth,
visions of (and encounters with) alien or extra-terrestrial beings are commonplace during shamanic journeying and stages of kundalini awakening.
How we define 'real' or 'not-real' is dependent on perception.
And individual perception - depending on all manner of factors (trance, entheogens, meditative techniques, fasting, neurological 'abnormalites' including so called 'awakening', solitude, nature, etc, etc) -can morph and encompass 'realities' that from other perspectives, seem quite impossible, even nonsensical.
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Any ETs who investigated us would have wiped us out ages ago. So the notion that ETs exist is absurd.
Come on Tyler. With 100 billion planets in this galaxy alone? It's all a matter of time and chance.
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Come on Tyler. With 100 billion planets in this galaxy alone? It's all a matter of time and chance.
Yes. If faster-than-light travel is not possible, then the odds are that no race would bother to investigate us. It would be too far, and take up too much time.
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I still don't see mastering fire for use in cooking as beneficial, and I feel it would lead to "unevolving," even for chimps and bonobos.
Yes, using fire for cooking is certainly a mistake. But on the other hand it’s not possible to use and develop metal working technologies without fire.
That’s interesting because it shows that notions of good and evil are relative.
How we define 'real' or 'not-real' is dependent on perception.
And individual perception - depending on all manner of factors (trance, entheogens, meditative techniques, fasting, neurological 'abnormalites' including so called 'awakening', solitude, nature, etc, etc) -can morph and encompass 'realities' that from other perspectives, seem quite impossible, even nonsensical.
Yes!
If faster-than-light travel is not possible, then the odds are that no race would bother to investigate us. It would be too far, and take up too much time.
It’s certainly impossible to travel faster than light, but this doesn’t preclude other ways of interstellar travel than going straight through the space-time as we think we know it. Our knowledge is extremely poor, limited, fragmentary and in constant evolution.
We can always guess things according to such current theoretical knowledge, but then the odds to be wrong are immense. It’s just the same in dietary science.
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It’s certainly impossible to travel faster than light, but this doesn’t preclude other ways of interstellar travel than going straight through the space-time as we think we know it. Our knowledge is extremely poor, limited, fragmentary and in constant evolution.
We can always guess things according to such current theoretical knowledge, but then the odds to be wrong are immense. It’s just the same in dietary science.
Interestingly, Bashar also explains the idea of teleportation and how it's done:
Bashar: Teleportation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb1u9zOPwiQ#)
I think the scientists also managed to teleport some photons a while ago.
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Re the above claims:- Yes, in recent times, a claim of 100 billion planets in our galaxy has been made. However, most of those planets are around red dwarf stars which give off very little heat. To be near enough to get enough heat(ie the habitable zone), they generally end up tidally-locked so that one half of the planet always faces the sun. Currently, only yellow or orange stars are considered remotely likely candidates for producing life-bearing planets. Other stars are too big and thus have too low a life-span.
Obviously, without faster than light travel, no aliens could visit us, so the issue of aliens would be irrelevant in that case. If FTL travel existed, then the prime motivation for exploration, as with humans, would be to colonise other lands(ie planets in this case). Therefore, we humans would get put into reservations, just like before. The only way out would be if one believed in transhumanism, in which case it might be possible that aliens might migrate to other more interesting dimensions as soon as they could, thus not needing to explore their own current dimension.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130103143422.htm The fact that the planets in M-dwarf systems are so close to their stars doesn't necessarily mean that they're fiery, hellish worlds unsuitable for life, the astronomers say. Indeed, because M dwarfs are small and cool, their temperate zone -- also known as the "habitable zone," the region where liquid water might exist -- is also further inward. Even though only the outermost of Kepler-32's five planets lies in its temperate zone, many other M dwarf systems have more planets that sit right in their temperate zones.
Let it be one out of 1000 or even out of 10,000 instead of one out of 100 if you prefer. Still there could have been more than 100,000 or perhaps only 10,000 societies of intelligent beings in the Galaxy.
Obviously, without faster than light travel, no aliens could visit us, so the issue of aliens would be irrelevant in that case. if FTL travel existed, then the prime motivation for exploration, as with humans, would be to colonise other lands(ie planets in this case). Therefore, we humans would get put into reservations, just like before.
These are inference from our current limited knowledge and ways of thinking. What do we know of the possible motivations of intelligent beings having a rearing of a million years or more of scientific and technological development?
The only way out would be if one believed in transhumanism, in which case it might be possible that aliens might migrate to other more interesting dimensions as soon as they could, thus not needing to explore their own current dimension.
There could well be other ways too!
Wouldn’t it be preferable to remain to the facts, to learn about them and to investigate them instead of wandering into mental speculations?
Majormark, I listened a bit to this “Bashar” I had never heard of before. He’s funny but does he really bring something new and practically valuable? How to better practice raw paleo nutrition, for example? There have been plenty of such people pretending to have been somehow in contact with ET’s, but up to now the only result has been to discredit the UFO’s extraterrestrial origin hypothesis.
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The problem you face is the unsolvable Fermi paradox which states "if aliens really do exist, why then haven't we encountered the aliens"? The issue of number of planets is a bit dodgy. For one thing, no other planet in our own solar system has demonstrated life, plus most planets will be extrasolar, according to reports - not much chance of life evolving on planets without stars close by. Then there's the lifespan of an alien species or civilisation. Many sentient alien species may have died out long ago.
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Maybe there are ways to travel faster than light...
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The problem you face is the unsolvable Fermi paradox which states "if aliens really do exist, why then haven't we encountered the aliens"? The issue of number of planets is a bit dodgy. For one thing, no other planet in our own solar system has demonstrated life, plus most planets will be extrasolar, according to reports - not much chance of life evolving on planets without stars close by. Then there's the lifespan of an alien species or civilisation. Many sentient alien species may have died out long ago.
Our solar system has only 8 planets and one of those eight has life and moreover a technological civilization. That’s much more than one out of a thousand!
A planet is necessarily orbiting a star, otherwise it’s not a planet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet)
A planet is an astronomical object orbiting a star or stellar remnant that is massive enough to be rounded by its own gravity, is not massive enough to cause thermonuclear fusion, and has cleared its neighbouring region of planetesimals.
Arguments about the Fermi paradox are interesting. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#Alien_constructs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#Alien_constructs)
and particularly this last possibility :
They are here unobserved
It may be that intelligent alien life forms not only exist, but are already present here on Earth. They are not detected because they do not wish it, human beings are technically unable to, or because societies refuse to admit to the evidence.[97] Several variations of this idea have been proposed:
Carl Sagan and Iosif Shklovsky[98] argued for serious consideration of "paleocontact" with extraterrestrials in the early historical era, and for examination of myths and religious lore for evidence of such contact. Sagan and Shklovsky noted that many or most religions were founded by men who claimed contact with supernatural entities who bestowed wisdom, guidance and technology, citing the fish-god Oannes as a particularly salient example.
It is possible that a life form technologically advanced enough to travel to Earth might also be sufficiently advanced to exist here undetected. In this view, the aliens have arrived on Earth, or in our solar system, and are observing the planet, while concealing their presence. Observation could conceivably be conducted in a number of ways that would be very difficult to detect. For example, a complex system of microscopic monitoring devices constructed via molecular nanotechnology could be deployed on Earth and remain undetected, or sophisticated instruments could conduct passive monitoring from elsewhere while concealing themselves with stealth technologies that need not be much more advanced than current terrestrial ones.
UFO researchers note that the Fermi Paradox arose within the context of a wave of UFO reports, yet Fermi, Teller, York and Konopinski apparently dismissed the possibility that flying saucers might be extraterrestrial – despite contemporary US Air Force investigations that judged a small portion of UFO reports as inexplicable by contemporary technology. (Mainstream scientific publications have occasionally addressed the possibility of extraterrestrial contact,[99] but the scientific community in general has given little serious attention to claims of unidentified flying objects.) Given that UFO investigators argue compelling evidence supports the reality of UFOs as anomalies, but that extant UFO evidence does not support an extraterrestrial origin, it is suggested that closer examination of UFO data may confirm or falsify the Fermi paradox and/or the extraterrestrial hypothesis of UFO origins: "Any refusal of interest [by mainstream scientists] in investigating the UFO phenomenon, using an ETI [extraterrestrial intelligence] concept as one working hypothesis, should surely be astonishing."[100]
This extraterrestrial hypothesis was jokingly suggested in response to Fermi's paradox by his fellow physicist, Leó Szilárd, who suggested to Fermi that extraterrestrials "are already among us—but they call themselves Hungarians",[101][102] a humorous reference to the peculiar Hungarian language, unrelated to most other languages spoken in Europe.[101] :)
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Maybe there are ways to travel faster than light...
I hope so. Einstein has already been proved to have been a plagiarist , and many scientists have subsequently been ridiculed in the past for claiming that flight or spaceflight would never be possible, so FTL travel might very well happen in the end. Though probably only nonorganic life(ie artificial intelligence) will ever actually achieve it.
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Maybe there are ways to travel faster than light...
Faster than light is theoretically impossible and the theory has been proved right. But the Universe is still full of mysteries for us and there could well be other possibilities for interstellar travel than traveling straight through the space-time as we currently know it.
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Our solar system has only 8 planets and one of those eight has life and moreover a technological civilization. That’s much more than one out of a thousand!
You clearly are a believer in the anthropic principle:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle)
However, the theory has a lot of inherent flaws:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle#Criticisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle#Criticisms)
A planet is necessarily orbiting a star, otherwise it’s not a planet:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet)
This is quibbling. The actual scientific term for planets which don't orbit stars is "rogue planet":-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_planet)
The notion of concealment is a bit unlikely. I could understand concealment being needed in order to defend against alien technologies of a similiar calibre, but not being any point when encountering sentient species with very backward technology. Also, no matter how alien, increased technology implies more control of the environment, such as the "grey goo" theory where nanobots take over the world etc. To give an analogy, let's say we humans were the equivalent of "shore-slime" to the aliens, then, even if they were so advanced that they and we were not really aware of each other, then the "shore-slime"/humanity would still be just as badly affected as modern shore-slime/bacteria is affected by humanity in the form of pollution etc.
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You clearly are a believer in the anthropic principle:-
Oh no: I avoid beliefs! I don’t know if the anthropic principle is right or wrong, I just meant to show that your argument (about the fact that our solar system has only one planet with life on it) doesn’t prove anything.
Oh, yeah “rogue planets”, I’ve seen this name appear for the first time a few months ago. I didn’t know that such objects exist until very recently.
The notion of concealment is a bit unlikely. I could understand concealment being needed in order to defend against alien technologies of a similiar calibre, but not being any point when encountering sentient species with very backward technology. Also, no matter how alien, increased technology implies more control of the environment, such as the "grey goo" theory where nanobots take over the world etc. To give an analogy, let's say we humans were the equivalent of "shore-slime" to the aliens, then, even if they were so advanced that they and we were not really aware of each other, then the "shore-slime"/humanity would still be just as badly affected as modern shore-slime/bacteria is affected by humanity in the form of pollution etc.
I’m not sure I properly understand since my English knowledge is limited. Concealment is certainly in our favor because an open cultural contact (even peaceful) with an much more advanced alien civilization would deeply disturb or even destroy ours. And the best way to observe is by avoiding to disturb the observed entity, or just slightly disturb it to study the reaction. See Deardorff”s paper linked here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/extraterrestrial-races/msg104108/#msg104108 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/extraterrestrial-races/msg104108/#msg104108)
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Oh no: I avoid beliefs! I don’t know if the anthropic principle is right or wrong, I just meant to show that your argument (about the fact that our solar system has only one planet with life on it) doesn’t prove anything.
You're missing the point. The very fact that our solar system has one planet with life on it does not support your argument either. As I showed, it is completely irrelevant, altogether.
I’m not sure I properly understand since my English knowledge is limited. Concealment is certainly in our favor because an open cultural contact (even peaceful) with an much more advanced alien civilization would deeply disturb or even destroy ours. And the best way to observe is by avoiding to disturb the observed entity, or just slightly disturb it to study the reaction. See Deardorff”s paper linked here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/extraterrestrial-races/msg104108/#msg104108 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/extraterrestrial-races/msg104108/#msg104108)
Again, you are making a false assumption. All evidence, so far, is that when any species gains more and more control over its environment, whether via increased intelligence or some other means, it goes on to destroy surrounding species, or at least seriously harm them, depending on ability. Simply put, increased technology does not by any means imply increased morality.
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Again, you are making a false assumption. All evidence, so far, is that when any species gains more and more control over its environment, whether via increased intelligence or some other means, it goes on to destroy surrounding species, or at least seriously harm them, depending on ability. Simply put, increased technology does not by any means imply increased morality.
The birth rate has dropped precipitously in developed countries. Who's to say this trend won't continue, as our life spans and health get better and better? And if the birth rate drops to near zero, we wouldn't need to conquer other planets.
I imagine aliens would be in much the same situation.
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You're missing the point. The very fact that our solar system has one planet with life on it does not support your argument either. As I showed, it is completely irrelevant, altogether.
Yeah, this doesn’t support my argument but it doesn’t support yours any better. By the way, what is exactly your argument? That no aliens are here around? That there’s no way any ET could have ever reached Earth? I’m just asking, to make things clear.
Again, you are making a false assumption. All evidence, so far, is that when any species gains more and more control over its environment, whether via increased intelligence or some other means, it goes on to destroy surrounding species, or at least seriously harm them, depending on ability. Simply put, increased technology does not by any means imply increased morality.
Of course, that’s what happens on our planet. That’s exactly the point discussed in the link I already gave:
(Cosmology: The Science of the Universe - Page 547 – ) (http://books.google.fr/books?id=kNxeHD2cbLYC&pg=PA547&lpg=PA547&dq=%E2%80%9Cgalactic+selection%E2%80%9D+harrison&source=bl&ots=h5dnT2r0f1&sig=dJw42f800oXZbashhZ0qBd6I86c&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=jTvnUPjPEuec0AWQrIDgCg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA)
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The birth rate has dropped precipitously in developed countries. Who's to say this trend won't continue, as our life spans and health get better and better? And if the birth rate drops to near zero, we wouldn't need to conquer other planets.
I imagine aliens would be in much the same situation.
Harrison shows in the same book that otherwise, with an exponential population growth, a civilization would ultimately expand at the speed of light over a whole galaxy, which is an impossible situation. Colonizing other planets is therefore not the final solution to population growth.
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Yeah, this doesn’t support my argument but it doesn’t support yours any better. By the way, what is exactly your argument? That no aliens are here around? That there’s no way any ET could have ever reached Earth? I’m just asking, to make things clear.
The point is that, obviously, since we have not experienced any contact with aliens, they could not possibly have come here.
Of course, that’s what happens on our planet. That’s exactly the point discussed in the link I already gave:
[/quote] A pointless statement. There are certain general rules in Life which can't be avoided, such as natural selection. Any species that goes in for increased morality in a big way would be encouraging species suicide, and would therefore no longer exist.
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The point is that, obviously, since we have not experienced any contact with aliens, they could not possibly have come here.
You are just expressing YOUR belief that "we" have not experienced any contact with aliens.
On the other hand "I" would accept that some of the reports about ancient aliens, past aliens, current aliens MAY be true.
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The point is that, obviously, since we have not experienced any contact with aliens, they could not possibly have come here.
It would be more accurate to say that you are not aware of any contact with aliens. As a matter of fact there is a enormous amount of reports from air force and commercial pilots, high grade military commanders, police officers, and all kinds of people as well of visual, radar, photographic, traces on the ground and on the vegetation, interference with electrical and electronic systems, disabling of ICBM bases, alleged wreck of an alien craft with aliens bodies, abductions, etc*.
Therefore the questions are:
1.) Are these reports reliable and truthful or are they all lies?
2.) What are the reported objects? Are they real, solid and material things or illusions?
3.) Where do they come from? From our own planet or from somewhere else?
Of course, there are plenty of deceitful reports. But there’s still a great number of totally confirmed cases, unexplainable by usual ways. Well, those questions are still a matter of debate. I’ve studied the subject for more than 40 years, read all the literature I found about it and finally gave up, so that I still don’t have a definitive answer.
It’s thus clear that we are facing an extraordinary mystery, on which various hypothesis have been proposed. Most are unsound as they cannot explain some of the most striking and consistently proved cases. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is the most probable.
A pointless statement. There are certain general rules in Life which can't be avoided, such as natural selection. Any species that goes in for increased morality in a big way would be encouraging species suicide, and would therefore no longer exist.
Not necessarily once that species is sufficiently scientifically advanced and technologically powerful while in the same time adequately clever and wise to understand that the concept of plenitude is invalid…. and therefore that by destroying its environment and other species it is precisely its own survival and well being that it is jeopardized. Even we, homo sapiens-sapiens, start to clearly understand that!
You are just expressing YOUR belief that "we" have not experienced any contact with aliens.
Exactly, that’s a belief. Some believe in ET – UFOs while some don’t believe in it. Both are believers: positive and negative believers.
On the other hand "I" would accept that some of the reports about ancient aliens, past aliens, current aliens MAY be true.
I hardly see any other possibility: the amount of evidences is overwhelming.
*I even got a few personal reports, including one from the son of a US Navy nuclear submarine commander, saying that his father and some of the crew saw an unmistakable UFO flying in the night sky while they where sailing on the surface somewhere between Guam and the Philippines.
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On the other hand "I" would accept that some of the reports about ancient aliens, past aliens, current aliens MAY be true.
The current aliens apparently do bizarre things like anal probing on their "kidnapped victims" , something they would hardly need to do if they had far more advanced technology than us. Plus, like I said before, anything that primitives like the Mayans couldn't explain they just arbitrarily ascribed to aliens or whatever. Meaningless.
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Not necessarily once that species is sufficiently scientifically advanced and technologically powerful while in the same time adequately clever and wise to understand that the concept of plenitude is invalid…. and therefore that by destroying its environment and other species it is precisely its own survival and well being that it is jeopardized. Even we, homo sapiens-sapiens, start to clearly understand that!
The whole point is that, though humanity has dimly understood that destroying its environment is a bad thing, there are still plenty of people who still carry on destroying the environment. All the knowledge in the Universe cannot get rid of innate instincts such as survival of the fittest etc.
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In 99% of the cases, perhaps.
A sea turtle lays about a hundred eggs at once. From those 100 eggs, statistically only about one turtle will survive and be able to reproduce again. It could be the same for planetary civilizations, I mean 99% would finally self-destruct. We can't exclude the possibility that some non destructive ones have survived.
Did you read the page of Harrison's book I gave the link for? Did you read the Deardorff's paper I linked?
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Yes, I read them. I've come across similiar claims in the past.
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I have a pilot friend who watched one pull up beside him inflight, loiter for awhile then zip off at incredible speed. He's a very sensible guy with no reason to make it up. I know other guys, some airline who've seen them and no they weren't Venus. Venus is pretty easy to spot.
Another friend saw one over a lake at night. Others I know have seen them.
In a small hydroelectric power company town where I lived, the security person was making the rounds one night when he saw one loitering under the power lines (735,000 volt power lines) which span a valley. He called the Police who watched also. Then it just zipped off after awhile. Both guys are not prone to mischief.
Crop circles is another thing related to the spacecraft. These are not some work done by a couple of idiots in England with some rope and a 2x4. They have shown up on the same night in fields in Europe/Canada and other continents. The plants are actually bent in perfect arcs and not broken. They continue to grow and their crop yields are actually higher. These topics have been discussed by various authors such as Jim Marr ('Alien Agenda') and Nassim Harimein (Crossing The Event Horizon)
Jim Marrs says that regarding spaceflight, these beings have figured how to create folds in time/space to make the distances shrink.
His explanation of what they are doing here and why they haven't wiped us out makes sense. He also explains that some of our modern 'inventions' were technologies gleaned from the crashed spacecraft that were confiscated in Roswell etc. Things such as fibre optics and some of the advanced metallic composites available nowadays. There were other things, but I don't recall them off hand.
The military has a major reason for keeping these secrets for themselves, because any technologies that they can gain, are a leg up in the techno wars that are so common nowadays and all of the industrial spinoffs. Were they to admit that they have these technologies there would be a hue and cry from manufacturers and the public to be let in on them.
He mentions that there are friendly aliens and not so friendly ones.
The cow mutilations are explained also.
I had no reason to believe or disbelieve this stuff till I read Jim Marrs's book. It opened my eyes and his other book 'Ruled by Secrecy' was a fascinating read also. It made a lot of sense in explaining how secret societies over the ages have created all kinds of havoc.
I haven't personally observed anything, but the evidence is overwhelming.
It really matters not if you believe or disbelieve this, but it is interesting to understand what goes on in the world.
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Thanks Raw-Al. Yes, I understand that airplane pilots sometimes see UFOs but they are extremely reluctant to write a report because it would drive them into troubles, isn’t it?
I stopped to read about UFOs about the time Jim Marrs published his book “Alien Agenda”, so I didn’t know about it.
What is the explanation of cows mutilations? I’m very suspicious of people who pretend to have all the answers. Sorry Al, but Nassim Haramein is apparently a con along with so many other charlatans pictured in this page:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/projet_camelot.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/projet_camelot.htm)
See down the page “La fondation thrive ou les foutaises toriques, avec la participation de Nassin Haramein” which could be translated into something like
"The thrive movement or the torus ring crap thing, with the participation of Nassim Haramein”
Same in English, but the page is incomplete and the part about Haramein is missing:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/camelot_project.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/camelot_project.htm)
A thorough debunking directly in English:
http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/who-is-nassim-haramein/ (http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/who-is-nassim-haramein/)
These cranks who write wacky and weird things discredit the others who are seriously and scientifically trying to comprehend the phenomenon. No wonder that the UFOs topic became a laughing stock.
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Whatever the case, crop circles have already been proven to be faked with some farmers actually showing how it was done.
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I'm not an expert on "crop circles", but it seems they are of two very different kinds: the man-made ones and the ones which could hardly have been made in a few hours by a couple of retired farmers. See those beautiful ones here (and the comments of Jean-Pierre Petit if you can read French).
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm)
True, there are some man-made ones. The problem is: could they possibly be all man-made? Whatever the case, some are really mind-boggling! 8)
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Humans can fool other humans in such easy ways that I just don't believe in alien-mad crop-circles, let alone alien-autopsied cows or whatever. Much easier to believe in a simpler solution, that humans like to play pranks on each other.
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Thanks Raw-Al. Yes, I understand that airplane pilots sometimes see UFOs but they are extremely reluctant to write a report because it would drive them into troubles, isn’t it?
I stopped to read about UFOs about the time Jim Marrs published his book “Alien Agenda”, so I didn’t know about it.
What is the explanation of cows mutilations? I’m very suspicious of people who pretend to have all the answers. Sorry Al, but Nassim Haramein is apparently a con along with so many other charlatans pictured in this page:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/projet_camelot.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/projet_camelot.htm)
See down the page “La fondation thrive ou les foutaises toriques, avec la participation de Nassin Haramein” which could be translated into something like
"The thrive movement or the torus ring crap thing, with the participation of Nassim Haramein”
Same in English, but the page is incomplete and the part about Haramein is missing:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/camelot_project.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/camelot_project.htm)
A thorough debunking directly in English:
http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/who-is-nassim-haramein/ (http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/who-is-nassim-haramein/)
These cranks who write wacky and weird things discredit the others who are seriously and scientifically trying to comprehend the phenomenon. No wonder that the UFOs topic became a laughing stock.
Iguana,
Re the airline pilots, you have to put yourself in their shoes. Why would they bother? It's basically a case of "Holy shit, look whats off the port side" "wow". If they report it everybody and their dog will make fun of them and what purpose would be served? Pilots are generally a conservative lot and fluffing the public image of their safe airline is not Kosher. It's not like all pilots get together and conspire to keep it secret. There are Youtubes with former astronauts talking about seeing them. Some former astronauts beat around the bush by saying that it is ridiculous to think we are the only ones in this universe. They usually wait till their careers are over before stepping on those landmines.
Most I've seen was a meteorite which whizzed by me in flames many years ago, probably at 9000' ASL.
Re the cow mutilations, they are real and pretty much impossible to have been done by us humans owing to the accuracy etc of the incisions. You really have to read Jim Marrs' book, because he gives a detailed history of the who, what, where, when and why.
Very briefly, the aliens are monitoring our planet and we are considered to be the babies in regards to technological development in the universe. These beings have somewhat destroyed their own planets with technology and are using earth more or less as a lifeboat. The reason that they are mutilating the cows is (roughly) that cows are a main food source for the planet from the point of view of meat and dairy and since they have some genetic kinship to us, they are like a litmus test for the state of our bodies, re ingestion of airborne pollution etc. As far as the aliens are concerned they are just carrying on studies using cows, like we carry on studies using mice and cats.
BTW in Jim Marrs book he clearly states at the beginning of a paragraph if what he says is speculation or hearsay by saying loud and clear "This is Conspiracy Theory"
Re Nassim etc and crop circles,
Nassim is a fascinating fellow. I know someone who took courses from him in Vancouver BC. His impression is like mine in that he is like Aajonus. He is brilliant but sometimes maybe too brilliant and he like to dump on the turtles he works around, so they naturally are inclined to fight back. He gets sidetracked in some wonky ideas. His theories are not mainstream in the least and those in mainstream are not likely to admit they are wrong whether they are or not.
In his 4 DVD set Crossing the Event Horizon" He talks about some fascinating theories of the universe/Big Bang/microcosm-macrocosm and his explanations are awesomely simplified. He is a born teacher.
His explanations of crop circles are not his manufacture as there are lots of books on them.
You have to see clear, up close photos of the plants that are bent in the real crop circles. They are bent very smoothly in a way that could not be done by the two jackasses in England who had their 15 minutes of fame claiming to make them. These guys would be bloody busy and capable of super-human feats of magic to be able to create a number of them in one night in England and then zip over to Canada on the same night do another, then zip down to the US on one night.
Honestly the people who believe some debunkers are what I can only describe as gullible, LOL who seem to be incapable of understanding scientific examination/inquiry. Sorry TD you really ought to do your homework on this one.
How could you make circles and various geometric shapes, with precision of less than a cm and have no tracks leading up to the areas, no footprints at the site, no damaged stalks other than a bending, which in order to duplicate in a lab, they had to bend using a very fast heating action that stopped as soon as it started, practically, so that the plant was not killed? In the lab this heating damaged the plants. Also the plants continued to grow even better after the bending, giving better than normal yields. Then there is the obvious physical effort of pushing down the plants. The huge areas that are bent would require an enormous expenditure of strength to do so smoothly and neatly. No two old goofballs are capable of that. All they are capable of being is idiots and no doubt along with the money they made from the news outlets, they made it into the history books and have a laugh along the way.
I have to catch a ferry now so I will close for now.
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Obviously, there are more than just one or two crop-circle hoaxers, no need to bring in aliens to explain a more simple solution. As regards the above, I've heard very plausible-sounding scientific gobbledygook which tried to show that the Moon Landings never happened, but further study showed that this was nonsense. Occam's Razor is the only way to look at such implausibilities.
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Obviously, there are more than just one or two crop-circle hoaxers, no need to bring in aliens to explain more simple solution. As regards the above, I've heard very plausible-sounding scientific gobbledygook which tried to show that the Moon Landings never happened, but further study showed that this was nonsense. Occam's Razor is the only way to look at such implausibilities.
Yes I've heard the moon landing ones and the twin towers one and my take on them is, I dunno. The aircraft crashing into the pentagon one being a hoax actually makes a huge amount of sense from what I have read.
You have to remember that there are always two possibilities in a discussion, minimum
Governments/Kings have a rich history of doing deceitful things to accomplish their own ends, such as in the case of Guy Fawkes. It also doesn't seem to matter the philosophical bent of the government in question, the lot of them seem to do it.
Occam's Razor could be used to explain the crop circles and mutilations and pyramids construction much more elegantly, if it was an alien group who did these things for their own purposes.
It explains so many things on the planet, such as the way populations spread out on earth, hieroglyphics found in disparate parts of the world, the Egyptian Queen Neferfeti's head in the statue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertiti) drawings of spaceships that have been painted since antiquity. Lots of other stuff, but do yourself a favour and read Jim's book written around 1995. At the least you'll get a chuckle.
Some of the explanations for how the pyramids were built are a bit far-fetched. Each stone fits like a glove. The whole theory of them being used for burial is BS. Just to get inside these things required a massive feat of destruction, yet people continue to spout foolishness of sand traps emptying and rocks falling into place....
I am not a civil engineer and maybe I am gullible, but I have a hard time believing that a bunch of Jewish slaves moved rocks hundreds of miles overland and by sea for the pyramids and the other structures. Why is there no mention in Jewish literature of building the things? If they worked on them all that time, you'd think it would at least merit some mention.
One of the major obstacles in understanding history is that every war that has happened has resulted in the conquering nation destroying the previous nations libraries by fires etc. so there is very few records of the past other than hieroglyphs. One of the very few libraries that survived all of this was one in Sumeria apparently and that was because they were written on cunieform or baked clay tablets. These were apparently translated by a school teacher and they revealed a rich history which mentioned aliens. If you read history from the ancients and substitute aliens for the words God, you have an elegant OR explanation.
I'm not saying I am right, I am saying that the jury is still out on this one. The most credible evidence points to: there's aliens in them thar hills. Maybe Obama is one... LOL Hey his head is a bit oblong.... LOL
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Humans can fool other humans in such easy ways that I just don't believe in alien-mad crop-circles, let alone alien-autopsied cows or whatever. Much easier to believe in a simpler solution, that humans like to play pranks on each other.
Eh Tyler, it's not a matter of beliefs (positive or negative beliefs)! ;)
Obviously, there are more than just one or two crop-circle hoaxers, no need to bring in aliens to explain more simple solution. Occam's Razor is the only way to look at such implausibilities.
I wonder what is the simplest explanation to the known actual facts and I fail to see what is complex in the extraterrestrial hypothesis. On the contrary, I find that the theories made up to try to explain all UFOs sightings and traces as being of local, non extra-terrestrial origin, are not only very complicated but also extremely implausible.
Moreover, Occam’s razor only applies when two (or more) theories equally explain all the known facts: then we choose the simplest one. But a prerequisite is that the theory must adequately explain all the known facts, otherwise the alternative theory which does it has to be chosen, even if it’s more complex.
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The trouble is that the simplest theory does indeed explain all the known facts.
Look, I've gone into this nonsense before, when reading von däniken and velikovsky. The more recent ones are just rehashing the old material one more time. It's like Stirner noted, when humans got rid of their gods, they simply replaced them with something else as their master, such as Humanity, or, as in this case, all-knowing, technologically-superior aliens. Just get used to the fact that there are no superior beings out there so that you are unlikely to get an afterlife or ever experience a "higher purpose" or whatever. l)
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The trouble is that the simplest theory does indeed explain all the known facts.
The simplest is the ETH ( Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis) and it’s the only one which explains all the known facts. The others can’t or are extremely complicated.
Look, I've gone into this nonsense before, when reading von däniken and velikovsky.
Ah, I also read von Däniken and I came to agree with you, he wrote a lot of nonsense. I didn’t read Velikovsky himself, but I also agree with you.
The more recent ones are just rehashing the old material one more time. It's like Stirner noted, when humans got rid of their gods, they simply replaced them with something else as their master, such as Humanity, or, as in this case, all-knowing, technologically-superior aliens. Just get used to the fact that there are no superior beings out there so that you are unlikely to get an afterlife or ever experience a "higher purpose" or whatever. l)
I’m not talking about such things, except that I don’t exclude at all the possibility that we are not the most scientifically and technologically advanced in the Galaxy. It would be very pretentious and anthropocentric to think so.
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The simplest is the ETH ( Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis) and it’s the only one which explains all the known facts. The others can’t or are extremely complicated.
Err, no, the simplest explanation is that there are no aliens. The pyramids can easily be explained as being of human manufacture, UFOs in the sky can be ascribed to meteorological phenomena of various kinds or drug-use or alcohol abuse or whatever. Crop-circles and cow vivisections can be ascribed to farmers wanting some publicity, and so on.
There was an interesting claim re aliens once:-
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/are-alien-abductions-real.html (http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/are-alien-abductions-real.html)
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Err, no, the simplest explanation is that there are no aliens.
Interesting… An even simpler explanation is that there are no other stars than our sun in the sky: the ones we see at night can be easily explained by optical illusions.
Ah, no, no, there’s even a simpler one: the solipsism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. The term comes from the Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist. As such it is the only epistemological position that, by its own postulate, is both irrefutable and yet indefensible in the same manner.
The pyramids can easily be explained as being of human manufacture,
Yes, sure, I agree. Raw-Al thinks they have been constructed by aliens or with alien’s technology and help. I wouldn’t say that’s impossible, but it’s quite possible (and likely) either that they have been entirely conceived and made by humans.
UFOs in the sky can be ascribed to meteorological phenomena of various kinds or drug-use or alcohol abuse or whatever.
Wouldn’t it be very interesting to study these puzzling meteorological phenomena endowed with an intelligent behavior and sometimes even leaving footprints on the ground?
It’s well know that airline and air forces pilots as well as nuclear submarines commanders and guys in charge of ICBM bases are drugs and alcohol abusers, isn't it?
Crop-circles and cow vivisections can be ascribed to farmers wanting some publicity, and so on.
Sure. It’s very easy to make a crop circle such as those ones. Farmers are amazing guys ;):
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Crop_circles_Swirl.jpg)
(http://dailygeekshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/20120729andechs-03b.jpg)
More there:
http://dailygeekshow.com/2012/12/12/les-18-plus-beaux-agroglyphes-ou-crop-circle-de-2012-en-images/ (http://dailygeekshow.com/2012/12/12/les-18-plus-beaux-agroglyphes-ou-crop-circle-de-2012-en-images/)
http://im-possible.info/english/art/misc/crop-circles.html (http://im-possible.info/english/art/misc/crop-circles.html)
There was an interesting claim re aliens once:-
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/are-alien-abductions-real.html (http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/are-alien-abductions-real.html)
Yeah. These abductions stories are really weird and I don’t know what to think about it. The "simplest" ;D explanation could be that the human mind is extremely complex, much more complex than anything we could ever imagine.
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From your link:
http://dailygeekshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/990iOH-with-UAV.jpg (http://dailygeekshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/990iOH-with-UAV.jpg)
;D What do these crop circles show? Is this a specimen of one of these extraterrestrial races, with the little hearts on the top of its antennae?
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The scientific consensus on crop circles is that most or all are constructed by human hands as a prank ... Methods of creating a crop circle are now well documented on the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle#Man-made (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle#Man-made)
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I think some crop circles are man made and some are not, due to the precision and timing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-P3qVJ2c0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-P3qVJ2c0)
Regarding "official" alien contact, according to theories - including Bashar, this will only happen if human consciousness evolves to a point where such a thing would not be detrimental to ourselves. It's more like when we discover an uncontacted tribe in the jungle. We normally don't go straight to them and show them some iPads to freak them out. In the same way, other evolved civilizations do not interfere directly on a large scale and wait for us to ease into this idea first and be somehow ready.
More on this idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4juznhkBGA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4juznhkBGA)
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What I find bizarre is the notion that aliens would care about us at all. I mean, if they are so far ahead of us technologically, the chances are that they view us as we do shore-slime, and probably blow up planets on a whim, like human children squash insects. Then there is the issue that if there is one alien species there must also be others out there, in which case why would they bother with us when they have so many other, more interesting, more advanced species to deal with than us?
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I think we over-exaggerate our importance along the lines of TD or they are huge or something.
I hope we never encounter ET's as we would make great pets.
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What I find bizarre is the notion that aliens would care about us at all. I mean, if they are so far ahead of us technologically, the chances are that they view us as we do shore-slime, and probably blow up planets on a whim, like human children squash insects.
I’m not sure they would care much for us. Who knows? They might be looking at us like we are looking at wild animals in a nature reserve, sometimes showing us a fake or disguised appearance, an holographic object or an effect of their technology to see our reaction or just for fun… Or perhaps they keep us somehow like we keep fowls to get their eggs. My chicken don’t even realize that I collect their eggs…
Then there is the issue that if there is one alien species there must also be others out there, in which case why would they bother with us when they have so many other, more interesting, more advanced species to deal with than us?
Again I don’t think they bother much with us. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don’t care at all. And perhaps they don’t exist or never came to see our Earth, but in this case we would have to find another suitable explanation for the obviously intelligent behavior of UFOs.
Your argument could be formulated in the reverse way: “if there is an intelligent, technologically more or less advanced species like ours, then there must also be others out there.” Plenty of them, probably.
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I like Spielberg's representation of aliens in ET.
There is a possibility that ETs are just bumbling flawed beings with limited capacities who have somehow managed to master the basic technology's of space travel, but in no way have the means nor the want by which to enslave or destroy other worlds. People have a misconception of aliens as somehow having to be superior beings who travel the stars majestically and without any personal problems or the technical limitations that inhibit our own attempts to explore space.
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I like Spielberg's representation of aliens in ET.
There is a possibility that ETs are just bumbling flawed beings with limited capacities who have somehow managed to master the basic technology's of space travel, but in no way have the means nor the want by which to enslave or destroy other worlds. People have a misconception of aliens as somehow having to be superior beings who travel the stars majestically and without any personal problems or the technical limitations that inhibit our own attempts to explore space.
An interesting idea, but I doubt it. i don't think it's possible to master space flight without extremely fast computers, and, if a computer is fast enough to do the math necessary for designing/testing technology for real space flight, it's also fast enough to design powerful weapons that could easily overwhelm our defenses.
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This is all hypothetical, but for the sake of an interesting argument.
Perhaps CK is right and an alien race has the means by which to dominate our world, but why would an ET want to do that for. To what end? If they are already that far advanced, you think they would also have evolved beyond the need to bully the weaker races.
Its a question of motive and will, not of capability. Aliens whatever form they take even with the highest level of computer technology, artificial intelligence, ect; wouldn't have a reason to invade a backwater underdeveloped race such as our own.
Unless they were just inherently evil, or were in need of our resources. Which is plausible.
The idea of alien invaders probably stems from machinations of the human psyche projecting its own predatory attributes upon a theoretical being from another star system.
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Its a question of motive and will, not of capability. Aliens whatever form they take even with the highest level of computer technology, artificial intelligence, ect; wouldn't have a reason to invade a backwater underdeveloped race such as our own.
Unless they were just inherently evil, or were in need of our resources. Which is plausible.
If a race has mastered interstellar travel, then they have certainly mastered asteroid mining. They can probably also easily convert pretty much any element to any other element. Given that, they'd have no need to venture elsewhere for resources. They could just mine the asteroids in their own star system, or convert rocks on the moons in their solar system to whatever they need.
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If a race has mastered interstellar travel, then they have certainly mastered asteroid mining. They can probably also easily convert pretty much any element to any other element. Given that, they'd have no need to venture elsewhere for resources. They could just mine the asteroids in their own star system, or convert rocks on the moons in their solar system to whatever they need.
Our own example, however, shows that the more advanced technologically a society becomes, the more it manipulates its environment. So, the likelihood is that any ET race will run out of resources(most likely mainly in the form of available land) and want more elsewhere, especially if it is having excess numbers of children. The only exceptions to the above I can think of is if the advanced technology of ETs eventually allows them to colonise dimensions other than this one and/or if they discover a source of infinite energy.
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You guys are very good at speculating...
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Our own example, however, shows that the more advanced technologically a society becomes, the more it manipulates its environment. So, the likelihood is that any ET race will run out of resources(most likely mainly in the form of available land) and want more elsewhere, especially if it is having excess numbers of children. The only exceptions to the above I can think of is if the advanced technology of ETs eventually allows them to colonise dimensions other than this one and/or if they discover a source of infinite energy.
My guess is that renewable energy sources like solar, etc. are going to become cheaper and easier to use. Once we have room temperature superconductors, then we can start covering the desert areas of the world with solar panels, and sending the electrical power to everywhere else, without the efficiency losses that come with long-distance power lines.
Think about how much energy the Sun puts out every second. There's no way we would ever need another source of energy, if we can harness that efficiently.
As far as running out of land, we've gotten better and better at getting more food from less land. Probably within 20 years or so, we'll start being able to grow all our food in vats. At that point, all we'll need are minerals to feed the process, and almost no land at all. The birth rate will probably drop to near zero as our life spans get longer and longer, as well.
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The trouble is that there will always be corrupt incompetent primitive societies which will carry on breeding like crazy. The inevitable result thereof will be low quality nutrients for everyone. In the end, the only obvious solution would be something like "Soylent Green" for those who've seen the movie.
Besides, if there is no end to technological advancement, we will eventually be ending up with resources which will allow individuals to wipe out entire planets on a whim.
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The trouble is that there will always be corrupt incompetent primitive societies which will carry on breeding like crazy. The inevitable result thereof will be low quality nutrients for everyone. In the end, the only obvious solution would be something like "Soylent Green" for those who've read the book/seen the movie.
Besides, if there is no end to technological advancement, we will eventually be ending up with resources which will allow individuals to wipe out entire planets on a whim.
100 years ago many places in Europe and the US were "corrupt incompetent primitive societies". Technology/education changes things. Every society lowers its birth rate once things start getting better, especially once women start getting college educations.
As far as low-quality nutrients, the oceans hold far more mineral content than we'll ever need. For that matter, we'd be able to recycle the vast majority of the mineral content anyway, from waste matter, once we got the vat-grown food system started.
As far as people wiping out planets on a whim, one thing I fully expect us to be able to do (assuming Moore's Law continues for at least 25-30 more years) is to cure all mental illnesses, including impulsivity and excessive anger.
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100 years ago many places in Europe and the US were "corrupt incompetent primitive societies".
Things haven't changed since then. There are still welfare-benefit sinkholes all over the US and the UK which are corrupt, incompetent primitive societies. The problem is that increased technology allows the useless elements of society to outbreed the more intelligent, and the latter are the only ones who tend to have some sense re not breeding too much. We need laws to correct this. Hmm, I always remember a wonderful story by Harry Harrison("a criminal act") wherein he posits a future, vastly overpopulated world where any man who produces more than one child can be fought, each time, in one duel to the death by any one volunteer with the latter being armed to the teeth. A logical way to reduce overpopulation.
Technology/education changes things. Every society lowers its birth rate once things start getting better, especially once women start getting college educations.
Not necessarily. There was the "baby boom" generation, for example. Current drops in population are due, imo, to government attacks on family values, feminism, drop in cultural activities etc.
As far as low-quality nutrients, the oceans hold far more mineral content than we'll ever need. For that matter, we'd be able to recycle the vast majority of the mineral content anyway, from waste matter, once we got the vat-grown food system started.
No, the ocean is too diluted, despite containing tons upon tons of such minerals. People have already tried and failed to harvest minerals from the ocean, because of this.
I don't like the notion of living off recycled crap. It reminds me of the book Dune in which people have to live off their own recycled urine which has been absorbed into their stillsuits via urination.
As far as people wiping out planets on a whim, one thing I fully expect us to be able to do (assuming Moore's Law continues for at least 25-30 more years) is to cure all mental illnesses, including impulsivity and excessive anger.
That's a bit of a stretch, to class impulsivity and excess anger as mental illness. They can be quite normal behaviour under the right circumstances. And I doubt that any society would dare try to make us all unemotionally calm types as then we'd all be like zombies.
Basically, an alien's behaviour may be so utterly alien that it could wipe out planets for the most alien of reasons, not even needing aggression or hatred to be able to commit the act. If it weren't even aware of us(say if it was an energy-being) then it could still wipe us out, unknowingly.
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Things haven't changed since then. There are still welfare-benefit sinkholes all over the US and the UK which are corrupt, incompetent primitive societies. The problem is that increased technology allows the useless elements of society to outbreed the more intelligent, and the latter are the only ones who tend to have some sense re not breeding too much. We need laws to correct this. Hmm, I always remember a wonderful story by Harry Harrison("a criminal act") wherein he posits a future, vastly overpopulated world where any man who produces more than one child can be fought, each time, in one duel to the death by any one volunteer with the latter being armed to the teeth. A logical way to reduce overpopulation. Not necessarily. There was the "baby boom" generation, for example. Current drops in population are due, imo, to government attacks on family values, feminism, drop in cultural activities etc. No, the ocean is too diluted, despite containing tons upon tons of such minerals. People have already tried and failed to harvest minerals from the ocean, because of this.
I don't like the notion of living off recycled crap. It reminds me of the book Dune in which people have to live off their own recycled urine which has been absorbed into their stillsuits via urination. That's a bit of a stretch, to class impulsivity and excess anger as mental illness. They can be quite normal behaviour under the right circumstances. And I doubt that any society would dare try to make us all unemotionally calm types as then we'd all be like zombies.
Basically, an alien's behaviour may be so utterly alien that it could wipe out planets for the most alien of reasons, not even needing aggression or hatred to be able to commit the act. If it weren't even aware of us(say if it was an energy-being) then it could still wipe us out.
It easy to make money out the less intelligent groups (lower class) I had a couple of dudes try to bait me the other day probably looking for a punchup.
Grinned a little and I went on with my day... I get guys like them to wear full overalls and masks in the heat doing work for my business while I will sit in the air con on my lap top checking the surf report while they make me money.
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Before launching wild speculations, wouldn’t it be wise to inform oneself about the facts? I won’t believe you guys if you tell you’ve read at least only one the most basic and fundamental books about UFOs, such as that of astronomer J. Allen Hynek The UFO Experience - A Scientific Inquiry (1972)
This book is freely available online here. http://fr.slideshare.net/DirkTheDaring11/j-allen-hynek-the-ufo-experience-a-scientific-inquiry-1972 (http://fr.slideshare.net/DirkTheDaring11/j-allen-hynek-the-ufo-experience-a-scientific-inquiry-1972)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Allen_Hynek
Dr. Josef Allen Hynek (May 1, 1910 – April 27, 1986) was a United States astronomer, professor, and ufologist.[1] He is perhaps best remembered for his UFO research. Hynek acted as scientific adviser to UFO studies undertaken by the U.S. Air Force under three consecutive names:
Project Sign (1947–1949),
Project Grudge (1949–1952), and
Project Blue Book (1952 to 1969).
For decades afterwards, he conducted his own independent UFO research, developing the Close Encounter classification system, and is widely considered the father of the concept of scientific analysis of both reports and, especially, trace evidence purportedly left by UFOs.[2]
Another astronomer who openly spoke and wrote about UFO’s is Pierre Guérin:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/researchers/detail104.htm
French astronomer Pierre Guérin, who died in 2000, was one of the very few scientists who publicly defended UFOs in France. In his book "UFOs: the mechanisms of a disinformation" (OVNI. Les mécanismes d'une désinformation, 2000), published just before his death, Guérin expressed the opinion that the American policy of UFO secrecy is not near its end, because the revelation of an alien presence would be too great a shock for Mankind.
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Dr. Pierre Guérin, senior researcher at the French National Council for Scientific Research (CNRS), has written extensively about the need for scientific research in the UFO field. He was concluding a summary of the UFO evidence published in Sciences & Avenir in 1972. Guérin, P., "Le Dossier des Objets Volants Non Identifiés," Sciences & Avenir, No. 307, Paris, September 1972.
His friend Jean-Pierre Petit, also a former head of research at the French National Council for Scientific Research (CNRS), a cosmologist and one of the world’s best specialists of magneto-hydro dynamic propulsion, published several and extremely controversial books about alleged ET presence on Earth. His forthright talk and his unusual stance on something very strange about it made him a lot of enemies, even amongst ufologists.
Then there are US Air Force declassified reports as well as the French Air Force COMETA report which is a must read. It’s freely available on line too and in English here. http://www.archive.org/download/http://archive.org/details/TheCometaReport (http://www.archive.org/download/http://archive.org/details/TheCometaReport)
and here http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Cometa.htm (http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Cometa.htm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COMETA
COMETA was a high-level French UFO study organisation from the late 1990s, composed of high-ranking officers and officials, some having held command posts in the armed forces and aerospace industry. The name "COMETA" in English stands for "Committee for in-depth studies." The study was carried out over several years by an independent group of mostly former "auditors" at the Institute of Advanced Studies for National Defence, or IHEDN, a high-level French military think-tank, and by various other experts.
The group was responsible for the 'COMETA Report' (1999) on UFOs and their possible implications for defence in France. The report concluded that about 5% of the UFO cases they studied were utterly inexplicable and the best hypothesis to explain them was the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH). The authors also accused the United States government of engaging in a massive cover-up of the evidence.
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Things haven't changed since then. There are still welfare-benefit sinkholes all over the US and the UK which are corrupt, incompetent primitive societies. The problem is that increased technology allows the useless elements of society to outbreed the more intelligent, and the latter are the only ones who tend to have some sense re not breeding too much. We need laws to correct this. Hmm, I always remember a wonderful story by Harry Harrison("a criminal act") wherein he posits a future, vastly overpopulated world where any man who produces more than one child can be fought, each time, in one duel to the death by any one volunteer with the latter being armed to the teeth. A logical way to reduce overpopulation. Not necessarily. There was the "baby boom" generation, for example. Current drops in population are due, imo, to government attacks on family values, feminism, drop in cultural activities etc. No, the ocean is too diluted, despite containing tons upon tons of such minerals. People have already tried and failed to harvest minerals from the ocean, because of this.
I don't like the notion of living off recycled crap. It reminds me of the book Dune in which people have to live off their own recycled urine which has been absorbed into their stillsuits via urination. That's a bit of a stretch, to class impulsivity and excess anger as mental illness. They can be quite normal behaviour under the right circumstances. And I doubt that any society would dare try to make us all unemotionally calm types as then we'd all be like zombies.
Basically, an alien's behaviour may be so utterly alien that it could wipe out planets for the most alien of reasons, not even needing aggression or hatred to be able to commit the act. If it weren't even aware of us(say if it was an energy-being) then it could still wipe us out, unknowingly.
The ocean is not too diluted to harvest minerals from. Have you not heard of Celtic sea salt? ROFL
It's easy to separate out the sodium from the other elements in the salt, you just raise the pH to about 11, remove the minerals that precipitate out, rinse most of the remaining sodium from the precipitate, and you have all the minerals necessary for life, in a liquid solution. I've done this hundreds of times myself, to make minerals supplements for drinking and for my plants.
Impulsivity is most definitely a mental illness. It might be adaptive in a few situations, but the more civilized a society is, the less need it has for impulsivity.
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Obviously, I wasn't talking about salt or water, but about minerals like gold or uranium.
Impulsivity is not a mental illness. It is definitively adaptive in certain situations, even in ones available to more civilised societies. Regardless of how civilised a society might be, a sudden choice derived from impulsivity via intuition etc. might easily be far superior to one based on long-term, purely unemotional reasons.
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Before launching wild speculations, wouldn’t it be wise to inform oneself about the facts?
Well, what about your extraterrestrial crop circles?
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I hear you iguana.
I still think most UFO sightings are questionable, they could be real, but that doesn't mean that they aren't just ultra highteck secret craft being operated by the shadow governmental organizations of the world, who suppress such technology.
I wonder if any syfi geeks get hung up on the idea of biological incompatibility when it comes to visitors entering into our biosphere? Like in war of the worlds the aliens where destroyed by our microbes. The life force on this planet may totally be at odds with whatever else has evolved on other planets. So perhaps for an alien race to be able to use our planet at all they would have to destroy all life on earth in order to terraform the planet into something consistent with their own biological needs.
Things haven't changed since then. There are still welfare-benefit sinkholes all over the US and the UK which are corrupt, incompetent primitive societies. The problem is that increased technology allows the useless elements of society to outbreed the more intelligent, and the latter are the only ones who tend to have some sense re not breeding too much. We need laws to correct this.
That's a bit of a stretch, to class impulsivity and excess anger as mental illness. They can be quite normal behaviour under the right circumstances. And I doubt that any society would dare try to make us all unemotionally calm types as then we'd all be like zombies.
Basically, an alien's behaviour may be so utterly alien that it could wipe out planets for the most alien of reasons, not even needing aggression or hatred to be able to commit the act. If it weren't even aware of us(say if it was an energy-being) then it could still wipe us out, unknowingly.
I don't think laws are going to help this trend. There may be a breaking point sometime in the future, if trends continue, where Huxley's brave new world will be ushered in, in order to keep technology from turning us into mindless jellyfish.
Impusivity always allowed captain Kirk to prevail against more advanced alien aggressors. Going head first into danger, driven by an insane passion to live, is what makes humans so great. Yeah some of the red shirts will be vaporized in the struggle, but its all for the greater glory of those who survive. The same instincts to fight and fuck are also connected to our capacity to care for one another. There are elements of the human soul which must be totally unique in the immediate universe, and evolved to suit our own survival , and particular to our own kind.
Alien races would most likely have a completely different set of wiles.
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Well, what about your extraterrestrial crop circles?
They are not mine and I don’t pretend to know the origin of all of them, on the contrary to some who strongly believe they hold the ultimate truth and a definitive answer. I’haven't studied the subject and anyway I don’t care about it. I just find it strange and absolutely amazing — as well as the stand of those who believe that these "crop circles" are all made by pranksters. I don’t speculate and I keep an open mind without excluding any possible origin, which could well be diverse including man made — which is proved at least for some.
If you want to study that subject, there are two links still working on Jean-Pierre Petit 10 years old (French) page on it : http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm)
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/ (http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/)
http://www.circlemakers.org/ (http://www.circlemakers.org/) (website of the human makers)
Apparently and according to JPP, there are two basic kinds differentiated by the way the stems are bent (see his drawing and photos).
(http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Illustrations/bles.jpg)
Il y a évidemment des "agroglyphes" qui sont le fait de farceurs. Dans les crop circles authentiques les blés ne sont pas cassés, ni pliés. Quelque chose semble avoir agi sur le "noeud" le plus proche du sol. La tige acquiert alors une angulation, d'importance variable.
Translation : There are obviously "crop circles" made by pranksters. In the genuine crop circles the wheat is neither broken nor bent. Something seems to have acted on the "node" closest to the ground. The stem acquires an angle of varying importance.
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If you want to study that subject, there are two links still working on Jean-Pierre Petit 10 years old (French) page on it : http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm (http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm)
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/ (http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/)
http://www.circlemakers.org/ (http://www.circlemakers.org/) (website of the human makers)
Apparently and according to JPP, there are two basic kinds differentiated by the way the stems are bent (see his drawing and photos).
(http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Illustrations/bles.jpg)
Translation : There are obviously "crop circles" made by pranksters. In the genuine crop circles the wheat is neither broken nor bent. Something seems to have acted on the "node" closest to the ground. The stem acquires an angle of varying importance.
Funny thing is that the pranksters never actually demonstrate how they do the crop circles.
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Majormark, I listened a bit to this “Bashar” I had never heard of before. He’s funny but does he really bring something new and practically valuable? How to better practice raw paleo nutrition, for example? There have been plenty of such people pretending to have been somehow in contact with ET’s, but up to now the only result has been to discredit the UFO’s extraterrestrial origin hypothesis.
The value of those concepts is that it allows for a better understanding, a new perspective, of the "physics" of vibrations related to psychology and this gives us the opportunity to evolve, to get over some problems more easily.
Some of the Core Concepts of Bashar are explained here: iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/
The basic principles are listed on Darryl's site: bashar.org/aboutprinciples.html
I found another video where the issue of "open contact" is better explained (how, why and when):
Bashar - První kontakt aneb pro? jsme ješt? nep?istáli? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt17D4QKVi0#ws)
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The truth is out there. ???
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Scientists Publish Controversial Paper About Extra-Terrestrial Life on Meteorites (http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/scientists-publish-controversial-paper-about-extra-terrestrial-life-meteorites)
By Ashley Davis, Tue, March 12, 2013
Structures similar to algae were found on fragments of a meteorite which struck Sri Lanka last year, proving that life exists in other places of the universe. In a paper written by a team of scientists, they claim that the microscope images of the rocks reveal small fossilized life forms from space. They are convinced that their findings are evidence of panspermia, the hypothesis that life exists throughout the universe and is spread by meteoroids, asteroids and planetoids.
In January, Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham Centre for Astrobiology said initial investigations of the meteorite revealed evidence of alien life forms. Chandra is a joint author of a new study reiterating the claims based on new analysis of the rocks.
(…)
In the most recent study, scientists claim the three rocks contain fossilized biological structures fused into the rock matrix. They said they also conducted tests ruling out the possibility of terrestrial contamination. Microscopic images of the structures show complex, thick-walled, carbon-rich microfossil around 100 micrometers across. Another image shows well-preserved flagella 100 micrometers long and two micrometers in diameter.
Scientists said the long and thin nature of the structures indicate “a low gravity, low pressure environment and rapid freeze-drying,” which likely happened in space. They said their findings “offer clear and convincing evidence that these obviously ancient remains of extinct marine algae found embedded in the Polonnaruwa meteorite are indigenous to the stones and not the result of post-arrival microbial contaminants.” Professor Wickramasinghe said microbes from space are the reason life formed on our planet years ago.
“We are all aliens - we share a cosmic ancestry,” he said. “Each time a new planetary system forms a few surviving microbes find their way into comets. These then multiply and seed other planets.”
Yes, I've been thinking since a long time that the panspermia hypothesis is likely true.
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There is a further hypothesis, “Direct panspermia", which is fascinating.
Francis Crick Remembered
The secret of life
by Astrobiology Magazine (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-04zzz.html)
Moffett Field CA (SPX) Aug 02, 2004
The British molecular biologist Francis Harry Crick died on Wednesday at the age of 88. Crick changed our understanding of life when, in 1953, he and James Watson announced that DNA came packaged in an elegant double helix structure. Crick reportedly claimed they had found 'the secret of life,' and many scientists agree.
The double-helix structure explained how genetic material replicated through nitrogenous base pair bonds. Some see this as the most important development in biology in the 20th century, and Watson and Crick were awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for their discovery in 1962.
Crick was not content to sit back on his laurels after winning one of the top prizes in science, however. He continued to study the mysteries of life, such as the nature of consciousness, or the possibility that RNA preceded the development of DNA.
In 1973, he and the chemist Leslie Orgel published a paper in the journal Icarus suggesting that life may have arrived on Earth through a process called 'Directed Panspermia.'
The Panspermia hypothesis suggests that the seeds of life are common in the universe and can be spread between worlds. This idea originated with the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras, and was later promoted by the Swedish physicist Svante Arrhenius and the British astronomer Fred Hoyle.
Versions of this hypothesis have survived to the present day, with the discovery of proposed 'fossil structures' in the martian meteorite ALH84001.
'Directed Panspermia' suggests that life may be distributed by an advanced extraterrestrial civilization. Crick and Orgel argued that DNA encapsulated within small grains could be fired in all directions by such a civilization in order to spread life within the universe. Their abstract in the 1973 Icarus paper reads:
"It now seems unlikely that extraterrestrial living organisms could have reached the earth either as spores driven by the radiation pressure from another star or as living organisms imbedded in a meteorite."
"As an alternative to these nineteenth-century mechanisms, we have considered Directed Panspermia, the theory that organisms were deliberately transmitted to the earth by intelligent beings on another planet."
"We conclude that it is possible that life reached the earth in this way, but that the scientific evidence is inadequate at the present time to say anything about the probability. We draw attention to the kinds of evidence that might throw additional light on the topic."
Crick and Orgel further expanded on this idea in their 1981 book, 'Life Itself.'. They believed there was little chance that microorganisms could be transported between planets and across interstellar distances by random accident.
But a technological civilization could direct panspermia by stocking a spacecraft with a genetic starter kit. They suggested that a large sample of different microorganisms with minimal nutritional needs could survive the long journey between worlds.
Many scientists are critical of the Panspermia hypothesis, because it does not try to answer the question of how life first originated. Instead, it passes the responsibility on to another place and another time, offering at best a partial solution to the question.
Crick and Orgel suggested that Directed Panspermia might help resolve some mysteries about life's biochemistry. For instance, it could be the reason why the biological systems of Earth are dependent on molybdenum, when the chemically similar metals chromium and nickel are far more abundant.
They suggested that the seeds for life on Earth could have originated from a location far richer in molybdenum.
Other scientists have noted, however, that in seawater molybdenum is more abundant than either chromium or nickel.
Coming full circle to his groundbreaking discovery of DNA's structure, Crick wondered, if life began in the great "primeval soup" suggested by the Miller/Urey experiment, why there wouldn't be a multitude of genetic materials among the different life forms. Instead, all life on Earth shares the same basic DNA structure.
Crick and Orgel wrote in their book 'Life Itself,' "an honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."
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I think a lot of our thinking is human-centric as well. Like another poster said above in terms of scifi geeks and biological compatibility. A lot of mainstream thinking is well in order for a planet to have life it has to be a certain temperature (the goldilocks effect), it has to have water, oxygen, carbon-based lifeforms etc. We think this way because it is what we would need. Perhaps other alien lifeforms are completely beyond our understanding. Perhaps don't need water, survive at super extreme temperatures and the like. I always thought it was a little egocentric to think that the alien life would have to be like life on earth. But that is most people's understanding of what life needs to exist (but it may only go for our planet).