Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Off Topic => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on June 19, 2013, 10:36:47 am
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D10:Why sometimes eating cooked food is BETTER than RAW FOOD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0EB3SUpuq0#ws)
Freelea says cooked potatoes are OK and she admitted that some of her friends ended up in mental wards trying to stay pure raw vegan, and that "you can kill yourself" trying to be 100% raw vegan! Even Durianrider said that a McDougall-style cooked diet is better than (fatty) raw avocados and nut butters and "a lot of people who ... try to do ... too hardcore [raw vegan] just end up back to square one."
Quite a change, but I can't say that I'm surprised. I predict more change in the future.
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she should just add raw animal foods to her diet
Look up Paul Nison ? who added raw dairy to his diet.
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These guys are a joke.
This cooked food stuff looks like just another business idea to generate more money, as it is appealing to far more people than a straight raw diet which many see as crazy or quickly fail to stick to. In other words their primary concern is making money. Check their "raw till 4" program.
How to eat raw food till dinner, the RAW TILL 4 program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIMp-nw0iA#ws)
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i don't even need to press the play button. anyone who wears orange slices as jewelry, and keeps a squirrel - sized bicycle in their yard, should not be taken seriously.
crazy lady.
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Maybe this raw till 4 compromise has something to do with their steadily declining web traffic?
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/30bananasaday.com# (http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/30bananasaday.com#)
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I found it interesting that during the filming, Durianrider was mentioning some of the high fat foods those in the not-knowing were choosing. Most were things like nut butters etc.. all of which are easy to overeat on, are full of phytates, enzyme devoid, full of omega 6's and most likely eaten with fruit/sugar, which for many is a bad food combo.
So here's my take, having been 'there'... you're body is screaming for essential fatty acids, and fat in general, complete proteins in their natural state, most likely minerals and most of the B-6 vitamins, and anything that will normalize blood sugars,,, so what does she suggest, appeal to all those true body cravings ( yes, I know she'd call them cooked food cravings inherited from our parents) and comfort ourselves with something as devoid of nutrients as a baked potato, another hugh blood sugar spiking food.
I'm never ceased to be impressed (even with myself) how one's mind can step in and think it can make 'intelligent' food choices throwing the complete history of mans/womans eating history out the window, and Trust in those decisions... You just wish you transport her in time, show her what will happen to her, and then send her back to the video camera to apologize to her audience.
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So here's my take, having been 'there'... you're body is screaming for essential fatty acids, and fat in general, complete proteins in their natural state, most likely minerals and most of the B-6 vitamins, and anything that will normalize blood sugars,,, so what does she suggest, appeal to all those true body cravings ( yes, I know she'd call them cooked food cravings inherited from our parents) and comfort ourselves with something as devoid of nutrients as a baked potato, another hugh blood sugar spiking food.
I'm never ceased to be impressed (even with myself) how one's mind can step in and think it can make 'intelligent' food choices throwing the complete history of mans/womans eating history out the window, and Trust in those decisions... You just wish you transport her in time, show her what will happen to her, and then send her back to the video camera to apologize to her audience.
Great comment Van.
I honestly think the body just gets used to the rollercoaster, I know the highs these guys get from bingeing on fruit and then the feeling of "well at least I am working that 5000 calorie smoothie off" with frantic anxious bike rides and making these crazy videos is an addictive physically and psychologically, its like having binge eating disorder with a side of exercise addiction. I've been there, you really put yourself in such a bind. I can only hope these guys didn't totally turn themselves so off of meat/seafood that they never consider even happily raised eggs, and local fish, even things like avocados(they don't eat "overt" fats right, what the hell!).
I can only imagine the immense pressure, because they have made their dietary convictions public and a business, that they feel to maintain a certain diet regardless the truth of their condition.
the body is an amazing thing, and it does take a very long time to break it down. they are both mid twenties though yes? by their early 30's they should really start to feel the effects of all of this blood sugar madness, I know I did. I really cant imagine they have any teeth right now, and also I am sure that their joints will start feeling the effects soon.
just glad I am a carnivore, spend a few hours or less eating high density and high quality foods, spend the rest of the time relaxing and enjoying life. herbavores, by nature, have to spend most of the day grazing to get enough calories, less time for the body to rest, relax, sleep, and think about anything besides where their next low quality meal is going to come from
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just glad I am a carnivore, spend a few hours or less eating high density and high quality foods, spend the rest of the time relaxing and enjoying life. herbavores, by nature, have to spend most of the day grazing to get enough calories, less time for the body to rest, relax, sleep, and think about anything besides where their next low quality meal is going to come from
This right here. With my diet set cooked paleo a la western promo style (60% fruit and vege and 40% meat, I couldnt get the meat lower, I love meat) I always felt like, well, now I need these herbs, and this supplement, then do this or take that. Finally coming here made me stop and think, even in trying to be healthy, my culture has taught me that "more is better, so taking something more with food is obviously better, its healthy stuff right?" Wrong. For a year I ate very clean cooked meat, mostly raw fruit and veggies and cooked grains. Over the past month I stopped all my suppements and all the madness. My brother is still trying to get healthy that way and I see the cycle of tale something for a while and have it not help. I'm just trying my best to get to the point where I can say, I'm off meds and feel healthy and clear, your turn.
Sorry for the ramble, but my point is mostly that even vegans think they can have a diet, then expect supplements to take care of the rest. ALL western diets expect that. Very sad.
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My experience has been very different, especially within the past several days, by coincidence. I am finding that certain supplements are providing me with dramatic benefits beyond what raw Paleo has. I'm trying not to get my hopes up so early, but it's exciting. Thank goodness I didn't let the frequent trashing of supplements cause me to not experiment more with them.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm hoping that some day I won't need supplements any more. I just haven't reached that point yet and I appear to be more in need of them than I realized, if the early indications are accurate.
When I've tested boiled and baked potatoes they haven't spiked my blood sugar particularly--less than some raw fruits and raw honey--and I've read many coctivores report that their blood sugar actually went down after adding plentiful potatoes to their diet. IIRC, even the guy who ate almost nothing but potatoes for around a month reported that his blood sugar went down. For me, potatoes give me other problems, but not blood sugar issues. Potatoes, particularly thoroughly fried or high-heat roasted, actually give me more problems than some raw foods that spike my BG much more, which is rather puzzling.
It's interesting that so many raw vegans claim that cooked potatoes are superior to raw avocados. That matches my own experience to a certain extent, though both have negative effects for me, with potatoes just being somewhat less negative, rather than beneficial. I've never noticed any internal benefits from consuming plant fats, not even centrifuged coconut oil (aside from "oil pulling" for helping clean my teeth) or raw coconut meat or water. All the noticeable benefits from fatty foods for me have come from animal fats. I haven't tried fresh durian, though, and I suspect the lack of benefit for me from plant fats has more to do with SAD damage to me than the raw plants themselves, as traditional peoples tend to have a high opinion of fatty plant foods.
Freelea and Durianrider have often condemned eating any animal foods (which includes eggs and fish as well as red meats, poultry and other animal foods) as evil murder, so it will probably take severe health problems before they'll consider eating any animal foods, but I suspect that day will eventually come, and I hope so for their sakes and especially for the sakes of the people they've led down an unhealthy path. It's mildly encouraging that they've publicly acknowledged that 100% raw purity is no guarantee of success and can actually be worse than certain mixed diets. Paul Nison, Matt Monarch and Don Matesz's wife also acknowledged this.
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What supplements are you finding exciting lately?
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I added P5P (a more bioavailable form of B6) and raised my intake of zinc, after letting it drop for a while, and also added NAC (a precursor to glutathione). The B6 and zinc seem to be especially beneficial for me. Interestingly, this fits with claims about "pyroluria," even though it's largely denigrated as a quack diagnosis and explanation. If the treatment works, I don't care if the reasoning behind it is flawed or not.
I had tried an ordinary B6 supplement in the past without any noticeable effects, but this time I asked what the best form was, because I had learned that the best forms of zinc worked WAY better for me than the cheapest forms, and I also looked up what the recommended B6 intake for people with "pyroluria" was, because I had learned in the past that I initially had to take WAY more zinc and potassium than the standard doses to have beneficial effects. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to do this, of course. Every individual is different, even though we're all humans with certain shared fundamental needs.
There's an interesting chain of events behind it. Our Eric had buttressed my interest in Nora Gedgaudas. I saw her lecture at the local traditional foods symposium (which I learned about rather late from my holistic dentist) and was inspired by it to buy her book, despite vowing beforehand not to buy any books. In her book, Nora wrote about pyroluria, which re-invigorated my interest in that, despite some skepticism about it and past mixed results (from an uninformed application of it), and inspired me to give that thinking another shot, and so far the results are pretty good. Time will tell.
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Don't get me wrong. I still think supplementation can be great, but I am referring to the mindset of priorities. Very often in western diets, veganism, vegetarianism, there is a thought process that lines up with allopathic medicine: take something to fix it.
What stood out to me so greatly on this forum was the common first response is eliminate effectively. Right now I'm struggling with keeping fruit to a minimum, while eliminating coffee and chocolate. My supplementation used to be so huge now I just have some iodine infrequently to track if it helps or not. But when I ate many raw fruits and veggies a few months ago, I needed green drinks, handfuls of herbs, supplements, probiotics, just to feel the way I do now. Plus now, my weight is down and I almost have a defined 6 pack (WOO) without exercise. All I mean, is America really needs to rethink their baseline approach, but they never will. Not enough money in it.
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Oh yes, definitely--the mindset of treating symptoms instead of addressing underlying causes is wrong, and vegans go wrong by assuming that the fact that their diet requires supplementation with B12 and other nutrients in the long run doesn't mean anything negative about their extreme approaches, as do ZCers with thinking that the need to supplement Mg doesn't suggest anything negative about their diets at the other extreme.
I think elimination is most effective in the early going--within the first 3 months to 2 years--to give the body a break from the constant onslaught of toxic foods in the SAD and calm down the immune system. At some point it may become beneficial to challenge the immune system again intermittently, once it is sufficiently robust to handle some acute stressors.
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I added P5P (a more bioavailable form of B6) and raised my intake of zinc, after letting it drop for a while, and also added NAC (a precursor to glutathione). The B6 and zinc seem to be especially beneficial for me. Interestingly, this fits with claims about "pyroluria," even though it's largely denigrated as a quack diagnosis and explanation. If the treatment works, I don't care if the reasoning behind it is flawed or not.
I had tried an ordinary B6 supplement in the past without any noticeable effects, but this time I asked what the best form was, because I had learned that the best forms of zinc worked WAY better for me than the cheapest forms, and I also looked up what the recommended B6 intake for people with "pyroluria" was, because I had learned in the past that I initially had to take WAY more zinc and potassium than the standard doses to have beneficial effects. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to do this, of course. Every individual is different, even though we're all humans with certain shared fundamental needs.
There's an interesting chain of events behind it. Our Eric had buttressed my interest in Nora Gedgaudas. I saw her lecture at the local traditional foods symposium (which I learned about rather late from my holistic dentist) and was inspired by it to buy her book, despite vowing beforehand not to buy any books. In her book, Nora wrote about pyroluria, which re-invigorated my interest in that, despite some skepticism about it and past mixed results (from an uninformed application of it), and inspired me to give that thinking another shot, and so far the results are pretty good. Time will tell.
Did you ever try raw oysters?
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yes
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Hmmm... so if the zinc in oysters were not enough then the Vitamin B6 must need to come from elsewhere.
I cannot see where zinc supplements can ever surpass zinc from oysters.
When I started eating oysters I gorged on them almost everyday for some 2 months then toned down.
Quick google of Vitamin B6 foods... http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B6.php (http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B6.php)
recommends raw pistacios and raw tuna.
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I doubt there are that many oysters in all of Vermont. We are a landlocked state with very little in the way of fresh shellfish and those we do have are very expensive. They are generally consumed only by a small elite. You are lucky to be near the sea and to have an old-fashioned open market the likes of which I have never seen on the entire East coast of the USA. Vermont is a dairy state, not a seafood state, and even the raw milk is expensive these days, thanks to bogus gov't laws.
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I see what you mean.
raw beef is the 2nd highest in zinc but it is a far far 2nd.
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Yup, raw red meat does help some.
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My vacation observations of mountain tribes in the Philippines is they do trade with the sea shore people for those sea foods.
I saw those very foods in weekend markets in Sagada, Mountain Province.
The mountain people have a high incidence of goiter and other sea food deficiencies.
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My vacation observations of mountain tribes in the Philippines is they do trade with the sea shore people for those sea foods.
Dr. Price mentions that, even when they were at war with each other, the coastal tribes would provide seafoods to the inland tribes, in the Pacific islands. Seafoods are EXTREMELY important. They just are.
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Well no coastal peoples are trading oysters for milk around here. ;D
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I seem to satisfy my needs and desires for seafood by powdering my own raw seaweed. ( I think to digest it you have to either cook it or powder it and eat small amounts frequently chewing and keeping it in the mouth to allow the starch enzymes to start to work on it) It could very well be for the minerals that they went so far to trade.... Trace mins like iodine, selenium etc.. could be easily lacking from soils the animals they ate grazed on. I will eat seafood maybe once a month. If I could find fatty yellow tail or good uni, mackeral, or toro, I'm sure It'd be at least a couple of times a week.
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Phil you have to have some decent oyster sources near by, you aren't far from the coast. You should be able to find them for about a dollar a piece, we even have them in minnesota and though they are nothing like the fresh stuff, they are passably clean in flavor and texture.
It's encouraging to see that 30bad's traffic has been steadily declining for the past year at least, hopefully people will get the scam en masse.
Phil, are you still taking FCLO or FSLO? Still noticing benefits?
What kind of benefits do you get from the zin and b6 supp?
The thing that is reinforced everytime I come to this forum is how highly individual each person's biologically appropriate diet is. I wish people could get this message in bulk.
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The thing that is reinforced everytime I come to this forum is how highly individual each person's biologically appropriate diet is. I wish people could get this message in bulk.
Definitely.
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Phil you have to have some decent oyster sources near by, you aren't far from the coast. You should be able to find them for about a dollar a piece, we even have them in minnesota and though they are nothing like the fresh stuff, they are passably clean in flavor and texture.
Are they frozen? I tried frozen clams and they sucked big time. I could only stomach them if I cooked them or drowned them in something. I think Gordon Ramsey even said something like freezing shellfish is a crime. LOL It's irrelevant anyway, as I don't think there's enough shellfish in all the local markets combined to meet my high B6 needs and I couldn't eat them all if there were.
I also upped my zinc intake after I noticed it seemed to help my night vision, even though I already had some bitter taste on the zinc tally test. That suggests I should shoot for a more bitter result on the test than I realized. I searched it on Youtube and one dude suggested that a good zinc level will produce a very bitter taste, not just faintly bitter.
Phil, are you still taking FCLO or FSLO? Still noticing benefits?
Yeah, minor dental benefits, and I like the taste of the unflavored (I like something with a good kick :P ) and mint versions, though I now have other things that help too, so I may save money and not keep buying it. I suppose I could still get some of that nice stinkfish flavor by fermenting some fresh wild fish (it doesn't seem to work as well with frozen or domestic fish).
What kind of benefits do you get from the zin and b6 supp?
Too many to list. If you want to get some idea of it, you can Google pyroluria. Not all of it applies to me, but enough to get a sense. The poor night vision and acne from carbs and low tolerance for alcohol are a few symptoms that improved for me. If I have pyroluria (or whatever it is), that may help explain why most raw fruits and honey give me zits and toe and foot muscle cramps, in stark contrast to bananas having the opposite effect of curing muscle cramps for most people.
Interestingly, supplements also appear to ameliorate negative symptoms from cooked foods for me. It seems like a healthy store of minerals and antioxidants can help one tolerate cooked foods.
The thing that is reinforced everytime I come to this forum is how highly individual each person's biologically appropriate diet is. I wish people could get this message in bulk.
Definitely, and my needs for B6 and zinc seem to be way more than most folks' here. I checked the B6 link GS provided and the top sources contain around 1 mg B6 for serving, whereas early indications are that I need around 150 - 200 or more mg per day currently. I doubt anyone here could eat that amount of oysters, fish or liver. Some say that my need for these supplements suggests "pyroluria" and that it is an inherited disorder for which there is no cure and one must take supplements for the rest of one's life. I hope that isn't the case and my need for zinc has decreased some, so that's at least a somewhat hopeful sign.
Pyroluria reportedly is common in the children and grandchildren of alcoholics, which matches my family history of multiple alcoholics on one side of my family, though conventional "experts" claim that it's quackery. Despite the multiple generations, I'm hoping that if pyroluria is indeed a real issue for me that I can reverse much of the damage. If not, then I guess I'll learn to live with taking supplements.
Hmmm, this is interesting--I'm noticing that my teeth are cleaner/smoother since adding B6 (the bioavailable P5P version recommended by the vitamin store dude) to my regimen.
To try to get myself back on topic, I'll note that Freelea did another video and acknowledged that she's been eating some cooked vegan foods during her nearly 7 years of supposedly "raw" veganism. She claimed that she never said that raw is the only way, just the best way and that she only eats cooked foods because she can't get enough raw vegan foods in the winter. That doesn't fit my memory of her past propaganda, but I never paid enough attention to her to be sure that I'm not just forgetting. Hasn't she in the past blamed some peoples' raw vegan failures on their not being strict enough, or am I dreaming? I wouldn't pay any attention at all to her except that Youtube keeps suggesting her and DR's videos because I watched and gave thumbs up to other far more reasonable raw food videos (including raw animal food videos, but Youtube doesn't distinguish between raw vegan vs. raw animal food, unfortunately), and I was surprised to see her advocating cooked foods.
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It's encouraging to see that 30bad's traffic has been steadily declining for the past year at least...
It's hard not to smile at that.
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Phil,
Nope, fresh wild and farmed oysters. Wouldn't touch frozen unless I was making a cooked dish like oysters Rockefeller.
Very interesting re your experience with supplements.
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To the original author, what level of awareness do you have in regard to how your body interacts with stimuli¿
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I found oysters at a local seafood shop/restaurant, though it requires a special trip, as I don't normally shop anywhere near it. The price/.lb seemed cheap until I realized that it includes the weight of the shells. :'( Still, it would probably come out to a fairly reasonable cost on a per mg zinc basis if I walked to the place. It would be a good weekend hike at 2 hrs round-trip.
Oysters appear to be the only food that comes close to providing the level of zinc of supplements. Liver contains significant zinc, but not close to supplement level, and it contains even more copper, which is a problem for me. While red muscle meat contains less zinc than liver, it has a much better zinc/copper ratio, though it also doesn't come close to pure zinc supplements.
B6 is even harder to get from foods. One cup of pistachios, one of the top Paleo food sources, contains less than 1/500 the amount of what I'm currently taking in supplements. It looks like I'm going to have to hope for a systemic improvement, such as developing better gut biota, so as to reduce my nutrient needs, if I'm ever going to be able to get off supplements.