Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Off Topic => Topic started by: TylerDurden on July 11, 2013, 09:36:01 am
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OK,
the beyondveg.com website has changed its essay against rawism to counter my well-thought-out arguments against it on rawpaleodiet.com. I need HELP from key long-term rawpaleos here to add data ridiculing that article. Any people here willing to sacrifice a bit of their time to do so? So far, I've begged others to join in, but, sadly, usually anybody saying "yes" would usually give up. I mean, it's lucky that my own efforts on the raw foodism wikipedia page, for example, have stood up, but that's only because the anti-raw brigade have not tried to demolish it in the last few years.
Plus, this thread is also an excuse for people to attack any threads I have made on this forum or rawpaleodiet.com or the rawpaleodiet yahoo group. I'm always looking for self-improvement, after all. No criticism leads to hubris, in my opinion.
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The very fact that the guy needs debunking is proof that he's not worth anyone's time. He's about as sincere a truth-seeker as the average televangelist.
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Please post the offending URLs to be studied and debunked.
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http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1a.shtml (http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1a.shtml)
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Here's some ammo for raw. I don't know whether you have any of these already, sorry.
From the favorite researcher of the coctivores:
"maybe we have, as a species, adapted to the negative effects of these Maillard compounds. It's one of many, many areas where there's not enough information for us to be certain. But you're absolutely right that cooking produces these Maillard compounds, and many of them are known to be toxic in other animals, so there are cases where we want to know more about that." - Richard Wrangham, PhD (Did Cooking Give Humans An Evolutionary Edge? August 28, 2009, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112334465 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112334465))
Does Accumulation of Advanced Glycation End Products Contribute to the Aging Phenotype?
Received December 12, 2009. [a "review of the scientific literature"]
Richard D. Semba, Emily J. Nicklett and Luigi Ferrucci
http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/65A/9/963.full (http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/65A/9/963.full)
Henle T. AGEs in foods: do they play a role in uremia? Kidney Int 2003;63(suppl 84):S145-S147.
http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v63/n84s/full/4493792a.html (http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v63/n84s/full/4493792a.html)
Birlouez-Aragon I, Saavedra G, Tessier FJ, et al. A diet based on high-heat—treated foods promotes risk factors for diabetes mellitus and cardiovascular diseases. Am J Clin Nutr 2010;91:1220-1226.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20335546 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20335546)
The Biochemical Magic of Raw Milk and Other Raw Foods: Glutathione
Posted on
September 11, 2010
by Chris Masterjohn
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/ (http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/)
Involvement of Maillard Reactions in Alzheimer Disease
V. PRAKASH REDDY a'*, MARK E. OBRENOVICH b, CRAIG S. ATWOOD b, GEORGE PERRY b and MARK A. SMITH
aDepartment of Chemistry, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla, MO 65409, USA; blnstitute of Pathology, Case Western Reserve University, 2085
Adelbert Road, Cleveland, OH 44106, USA
(Received 1 November 2001; Revised 10 December 2001; In y~nal form 10 December 2001)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/hqjpgwmql70krxw0/fulltext.pdf (http://www.springerlink.com/content/hqjpgwmql70krxw0/fulltext.pdf)
Resistant starch content is higher in raw and raw-dried than cooked plant foods:
> Composition of nutritional starches in processed plantain
http://www.eurofir.org/wp-content/uploads/docrep/poster/ifdc/ifdc9/7_05_Oladele.pdf (http://www.eurofir.org/wp-content/uploads/docrep/poster/ifdc/ifdc9/7_05_Oladele.pdf)
> Green Plantains For Better Gut Health, http://paleohacks.com/questions/184774/green-plantains-for-better-gut-health#ixzz2Yijlg9tm (http://paleohacks.com/questions/184774/green-plantains-for-better-gut-health#ixzz2Yijlg9tm)
> Low GI Mashed Potatoes! and the Resistant Starch Content of Foods
July 10th, 2013
http://freetheanimal.com/2013/07/low-gi-mashed-potatoes-and-the-resistant-starch-content-of-foods.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/07/low-gi-mashed-potatoes-and-the-resistant-starch-content-of-foods.html)
Orally absorbed reactive glycation products (glycotoxins): An environmental risk factor in diabetic nephropathy
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.full (http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.full)
Restriction of Dietary Glycotoxins Reduces Excessive Advanced Glycation End Products in Renal Failure Patients
by J Uribarri - 2003 - Cited by 109
jasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/3/728
Research of Helen Vlassara, PhD, focused on AGEs
http://en.scientificcommons.org/helen_vlassarahttp://pen.sagepub.com/content/31/5/430.full (http://en.scientificcommons.org/helen_vlassarahttp://pen.sagepub.com/content/31/5/430.full)
Does Accumulation of Advanced Glycation End Products Contribute to the Aging Phenotype?
Received December 12, 2009.
[a "review of the scientific literature"]
Richard D. Semba1, Emily J. Nicklett2 and Luigi Ferrucci3
http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/65A/9/963.full#ref-109in (http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/65A/9/963.full#ref-109in) vivo." (Glycation in food and metabolic transit of dietary AGEs, http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/031/1383/0311383.pdf (http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/031/1383/0311383.pdf))
More About Raw Milk by Sally Fallon
http://www.realmilk.com/moreraw.html (http://www.realmilk.com/moreraw.html)
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So many of the arguments could easily be pro-raw:
Research reveals that in animal models, oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol induce higher levels of arterial plaque (i.e., atherogenesis) than do the corresponding non-oxidized fats, oils, and cholesterol [Taylor et al. 1979, Kummerow 1993, Kubow 1993, O'Keefe et al. 1995]. The biochemical processes that make oxidized fats atherogenic are the subject of scientific controversy; however, one suggestion is that the heating of fats, oils, and cholesterol increases the levels of lipid peroxide products. The idea is that the peroxides (in combination with lipids) promote an atherogenic response [Kubow 1993].
In tests feeding high-cholesterol diets to rabbits, the consumption of scrambled or baked eggs produced increases in serum cholesterol of 6-7 times the pre-existing levels, while fried or hard-boiled eggs raised levels by 10-14 times [Pollack 1958]. Cordain [in a posting to the Paleodiet list of 10/9/1997] also reports that his research group routinely induces atherogenesis in test animals (miniature swine) by feeding oxidized fats/cholesterol.
That sounds very anti-cooking and therefore pro-raw to me.
Domestic cats today reproduce prolifically on "cooked" commercial pet feeds. One obvious remark about the Pottenger's Cats study is that domestic cats all around the world have been living and reproducing successfully for numerous generations on cooked domestic foods, or canned or dry commercial foods. Some cats are so domesticated that they don't even know what to do when they see a mouse, or will play with it for hours (why bother hunting when you are fed with palatable pet food every day?). That is in contrast with Pottenger's cats who couldn't reproduce beyond the third generation. It is certainly true that domestic cats do not have perfect health, but cat nutrition is as complex as human nutrition, and many other factors than cooking determine feline health
Cats are not usually bred with the same scrutiny that dogs are (or at least dogs should be, backyard breeders). However, many have noticed recently the issues with degeneration and kibble-fed animals. Many people feed their animals raw and the same arguments could be used in terms of "cat nutrition being as complex as human" If the cases of people feeding their pets raw and reversing cancer/hip dysplasia/skin diseases/etc. don't count for pro-raw regardless of what the AAFCO says is "complete and balanced" nutrition, then at least they can be anti-processed food, which when it comes down to it, is processing. One could argue that the preservatives, fake oils, and grains are what makes pets sick but even high-quality ones fail to heal the same way as raw foods.
"some cats are so domesticated they don't even know how to chase a mouse" or perhaps they are so fatigued and sick from terrible food they don't have the energy to think clearly enough to realize they are supposed to chase.
Just some thoughts to consider to counter some of his non-cited arguments.
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Why would you guys feed this troll? Nobody reads his site because his site stinks of a lack of sincerity.
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mr durden asked for help...