Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: mango on August 31, 2013, 03:49:53 am
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As some of you know, my diet consists 100% of raw grassfed/finished ground beef (75/25).
I was wondering if there are health benefits to leaving this fatty ground meat sitting out at room temperature, for longer periods of time? As I've gotten more accustomed to the flavor and taste of raw meat over the last few months, I've started to prefer that it sits out at room temperature in my home (75-80 degrees) for 5-6 hours before each meal, when possible. Yesterday, I experimented to see how it would taste if I left it out for 9 hours, and I found the meat to be even more delicious and enjoyed the crusted texture very much.
I read somewhere that there may be an increase in the growth of beneficial bacteria the longer meat is exposed to warm temperatures, but wasn't sure if this also applied to fatty meat like 75/25 ground beef, and couldn't find any research on this.
Also, is there an amount of hours after which the fat will certainly go rancid and be unsafe to eat?
I'm going to leave my meat out for 11 hours today and see how that goes.
Thanks!
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I try to leave my meat out for 24-36 hours usually, giving it a nice green slime starting on it that adds a lot of flavor. I prefer it unseasoned when aged this way, fresh I like a bit of hot sauce or mustard. The fat on the inside wont oxidize because its not getting air. However the stuff on the edges that gets dry is oxidized. That small of an amount shouldn't be an issue. Paleophil brought up an article saying some oxidized fats can be hormetic in nature. So maybe that small amount you are getting is beneficial.
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hmm...I don't like when my meat is slimey, but I do like it to dry out in a bit, and grow a nice little crust:)
I think that, if you have really good quality meat, it activates some enzymatic activity from bacteria present on the meat, and there isn't really a length of time that will be the factor in determining whether it is rancid or aged, but the quality of the meat and the quality of the environment its aged in is what determines that factor.
egg yolks left out to dry make this weird dried crust too. mango do you ever eat those? they are delicioius, its weird that the fat does seem to transform, on raw cheese, if you leave it out the fat seeps out, same with fatty fish, I don't know, I am not so worried about oxidation from aging and drying, not everything is always going to be fresh kill, and a lot of the fresh, still hot kill that I have had is waaaaaay over powering and not as tasty as aged.
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Dr.D, what cuts of meat are these that you regularly leave out for this long? I'm quite surprised and glad to know that fatty cuts of meat can be left out that long and still be eaten without any problem!
Jessica, I haven't eaten eggs since starting ZC (8 months ago) since at the time I had digestion issues and mental fogginess after consuming just a few eggs. But to be fair, I was consuming the whole egg, and lightly cooking/hard boiling them, so I'm not sure if I would have that same reaction.
And these were the "omega 3" organic eggs, which at the time I presumed to be the healthiest, but have since learned that its best to get eggs from chickens that are free to roam and eat their natural diet. But, the cost of buying these eggs from Whole Foods is close to $8/dozen and since I'd be throwing out the whites I couldn't justify the cost of this. Also, I honestly haven't felt like experimenting since I'm so happy eating raw ground beef, or lamb if beef is not available.
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both chuck roast and ground beef 90/10 (so fairly lean). Sometimes it gets a little pungent so I mix it with more fresh but the extra age right about 24 hours is pretty nice. It'll turn green if kept wet in the blood and it'll dry out if you let the moisture drain off or do a sabertooth style drying with a fan. Both are great ways of including variety in the same meat. I'm pretty sure both have decent probiotics. I'm personally a little wary of room temperature high meat because I had a bad experience previously, but that was poor quality meat. I currently love my high meat and leaving it out seems to produce different bacteria than cold high meat. Not sure if one is better than the other.
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Ground is not best to age, because the fat is minced together with the lean so it doesn't breath properly, being smothered by the fat. The beneficial bacteria need oxygen to proliferate optimally and not get overrun by anaerobic bacteria and molds that are not very appetizing.
Still it will age alright as long as it gets good air circulation. I suggest you flatten out some patties lay them on a rack with a fan blowing over it for a good 8 hours, and then judge for yourself by the taste whether or not you want to age it more. Taste it every few hours and by trial and error you will find the optimal.
There are so many factors involved in the aging possess {Heat, humidity, airflow, meat quality and previous handling}
Warning Fat will go rancid at room temp and making high meat at room temp is not a good idea....
I will preage my meat by hanging whole legs of lamb in a fridge for up to two weeks, then fan it out on racks at room temp to finish it off for a day or two. This way it is pre dried and kept well aired so it doesn't get rancid. In fact when on the drying rack fanning out the fat begins to soften and melt slightly, taking on a creamy and sweet flavor. Leaving the fat on also keeps the lean meat from getting to dry and tough.
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Thanks all, for the replies, I appreciate it.
I must admit that I'm a bit more confused now then when I posted this question. Apologies if I'm missing the obvious and making this more complicated than it needs to be, but maybe I can clarify what I'm trying to find out.
I can only afford grassfed/finsished beef in the ground form, so I expect to be eating this for the long term. Also, I'm not so interested in making high meat or aging it for very long at room temperature, but more so wondering if there is an ideal # of hours to leave it out before each of my 2 daily meals.
In case anyone was wondering, I left the ground beef out yesterday for 12 hours in my home which is at a constant 80 degrees with not much air circulation, and it was delicious, no signs of the fat becoming rancid. I might try to bump this up for a couple more hours sometime over the next few days to see what the limit is.
What I really want to find out is that if there is an advantage to leaving my ground beef meals out for ex. 12 hours vs. 5 hours? I don't understand too much about the process of oxidation, and didn't know if a longer or shorter time would be more beneficial if it is going to be at room temperature?
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http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/fermentation-anti-oxidants-oxidation-and-high-meat-i-don't-think-i-get-it/ (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/fermentation-anti-oxidants-oxidation-and-high-meat-i-don't-think-i-get-it/)
This thread was beneficial to me.
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mango, all you can do is self experiment, see what tastes good for you, see what makes your body feel best. its not about defining some standard, there isn't a standard, we are all different. I think what you can take from this topic is that is what we have all done, dr d likes his slimy wet met, I like dry high meat, both are fine, whatever works best for you will be fine. what sabertooth was trying to say is that when fat is mixed with meat it will go sour, because for fat not to do that it needs all the moisture out of it, and in ground meat, the muscle fluids wont be able to evaporate correctly with all kinds of fattiness smeared around, so it has a better chance of the fat portion rotting and inhibiting proper breathing of the muscle meat bacteria, it tastes foul as shit when this happens, rotten fat is pretty unbearable to eat, I don't think it happens in up to two days with some of the ground meats I have left out, but your meat is different so its something you will have to find out for yourself.
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thanks jessica for breaking it all down! that makes a lot of sense. :)
i'm not going to worry about how many hours exactly my meat is out for, as long as it tastes good and digests properly, thats what matters.
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Agreed with Jessica 100%. Ill add one more piece: drying the meat in the fridge for a month is probably my most favorite. Chewy on the outside, strong flavor, rich on the inside, and very tender. I haven't done this with ground, only lean cuts like chuck. I can't use my fridge for aging, the family gets mad at the smell.
If you like meat aged on the counter you may do well with high meat. Have you tried it yet? Not prescribing, just questioning. Proceed at your own pace/discretion.
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Agreed with Jessica 100%. Ill add one more piece: drying the meat in the fridge for a month is probably my most favorite. Chewy on the outside, strong flavor, rich on the inside, and very tender. I haven't done this with ground, only lean cuts like chuck. I can't use my fridge for aging, the family gets mad at the smell.
Over the winter, I dried thinly sliced beef heart in the fridge that had been soaked in a brine at room temperature for several days. It was good stuff. A bit like jerky on the outside, tender on the inside, and great flavor.
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Over the winter, I dried thinly sliced beef heart in the fridge that had been soaked in a brine at room temperature for several days. It was good stuff. A bit like jerky on the outside, tender on the inside, and great flavor.
that sounds good... how long in the fridge?
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Dr.D, i haven't tried high meat yet, but i'm definitely fascinated by the potential health benefits of it.
i've only been RZC for about 4 months and am still fighting off what was once a major candida infection, so i'll probably venture onto high meats once i've completely healed in the next 1-2 years (hopefully). my energy levels are still up/down from the die-off so i'd like to minimize all the variables during this process.
one last question i had on this topic - if i was traveling and i put my meat in a tupperware container around 7am, and planned to eat this around 7pm, would the meat age in a different/undesirable way since it will not be exposed to the air for that 12hr period?
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I never ate raw ground meat and never would. There were no meat grinders in the paleolithic.
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good for you, but not very relevant to the topic.
personally i'm not striving to live identically to how humans did in paleolithic times.
most of us here probably use toilet paper, hand soap, drive cars, etc.. that our ancestors didn't have access to.
grassfed ground beef if 1/2 the price of other cuts of beef and nutritionally identical, and makes this way of living affordable for myself.
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Tupperware is plastic and will leave your meat toxic at room temperature. Use glass or ceramic only and leave about 50% of the container as air. You should be fine then.
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that sounds good... how long in the fridge?
I started eating it about two or three days after putting it in there. It started drying pretty quickly. I left it in there, spread out on a baking sheet, until I finished it all off, probably about a week or so.
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good for you, but not very relevant to the topic.
personally i'm not striving to live identically to how humans did in paleolithic times.
most of us here probably use toilet paper, hand soap, drive cars, etc.. that our ancestors didn't have access to.
grassfed ground beef if 1/2 the price of other cuts of beef and nutritionally identical, and makes this way of living affordable for myself.
Mango, sometimes we all can come off a little odd sometimes. Iguana wasn't being critical. He's been good enough to share his insights so many many times, my guess is that he abbreviates his responses now at times.
What he most likely meant about ground beef was that it's hard to notice your natural stop that your body has when eating food that has been ground or mixed with other foods or frozen or heated.... It is a Real phenomena, and one that you may come to appreciate some day. But for now, it's great that you're able to eat raw like you are. Cheers
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mango do you have access to hearts or livers? they might be less expensive the ground, also marrow bones, marrow is such a treat. heart is one of the best muscle meats, liver is just tasty as shit, until its not....
dr. d, do you ever open air out your meats or do you always cover them? I keep mine in ceramic bowls and just eat some and then leave whatever is left in the bowl, I usually drain or drink off the liquid, depending on how it tastes, so that whatever is in the bowl kinda shrinks up.
cant wait to have a better place to properly age some meat though, I want months long aged ribs
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Dr.D, great idea, thanks for the tip!
van, thanks for expanding on the post from Iguana, no offense was taken. when i started RPD i came from a cooked ZC diet where i had a lot of trouble determining what the right stop point was, and was too used to eating just for the pleasure of it. combined with the lingering candida in my body it was very frustrating to know at what point the true hunger ended and this was one of the main reasons i ventured over to raw meats.
once i switched, it was much easier to find this stop point and after a few weeks of initially overeating and having diarrhea alternating with constipation, i found the ideal amount of meat that my body needs each day. it doesnt vary much unless i'm especially active, and my activity levels are usually pretty consistent day to day. i work a desk job (standing desk when i'm at home for the first few hours each morning) and currently not doing any intense exercise as my energy levels fluctuate and i want to direct all my bodys energy towards healing this infection asap. i do go for long walks outside at a pretty good pace for about 1 hr every morning and evening, and this seems to help a lot with digestion.
jessica, i initially experimented with grounding up grassfed hearts, livers, and kidneys, but found that after eating about 1oz of this combination for 1-2 weeks, i started to show all the signs of copper toxicity and the candida got out of control. i dont hear of many other people having this reaction, especially with such small amounts, but it certainly made me realize that my body isn't ready for this right now. i may experiment again in the future once all the candida has cleared up. also, i dont have any local access to marrow bones, and ordering online would cost more than the ground meat itself. thanks for the suggestion though.
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you should try oysters then. anything with high zinc will help straighten out your imbalances.
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I started eating it about two or three days after putting it in there. It started drying pretty quickly. I left it in there, spread out on a baking sheet, until I finished it all off, probably about a week or so.
nice. thanks.
mango, for dinner tonight, i tried raw ground beef for the first time... thanks for the post (question), it had me thinking while i was standing at the glass butcher case yesterday...
i didn't leave it out on the counter for hours, but it was everything i expected it to be. not too shabby.
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you should try oysters then. anything with high zinc will help straighten out your imbalances.
mmm... oysters...
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mango, for dinner tonight, i tried raw ground beef for the first time...
I love ground beef. I think anything grass fed and ground is delicious.
I personally used to leave my meat out a few hours before eating it. I haven't been doing that now though.
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Jess: The only covered meat I eat is high meat. The rest I leave open air. However 90% of the time I leave the juice in there. The other 10% I do drain to dry because the chewiness can be great, though I haven't found a meat that when I dry age it gets more flavor, only when I leave the juice. I aspire someday to be on the level of AV and how he would (sucks to use past tense) eat probably more high meat than any of us.
Is there some secret to getting more flavor out of dry aged meat? Maybe my taste buds haven't developed the skill to taste the subtleties in the dried meat unseasoned? I've been eating more stuff unseasoned but when it's fresh as fresh can be it is very bland, so i'll use hot sauce.
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is the meat you get fresh or frozen? I think that may have something to do with it. The fresh deer I have let age is amazingly complex tasting, some of the better pieces of frozen lamb have gotten has been that way as well though, I think it just depends on how its treated when butchered.
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It's frozen. Aside from going out and killing my stuff myself (which I'm considering because I ain't gonna let the man get me down, but risky) I only have access to frozen.
That does remind me of that deer I commandeered from the side of the road a while back. I did let it dry and it was good, had a dry bloody taste too it, like a fine wine, not too metallic but meaty.
I would like to find a way to frequently get fresh meat, but short of hunting all the time, I can't see that happening.
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Mango, sometimes we all can come off a little odd sometimes. Iguana wasn't being critical. He's been good enough to share his insights so many many times, my guess is that he abbreviates his responses now at times.
What he most likely meant about ground beef was that it's hard to notice your natural stop that your body has when eating food that has been ground or mixed with other foods or frozen or heated.... It is a Real phenomena, and one that you may come to appreciate some day. But for now, it's great that you're able to eat raw like you are. Cheers
Thanks, Van!
Yes and I would ad that grinding mixes fat and muscle so intricately that it becomes impossible to dose each. Parts not suitable for you can be mixed with the good tasting parts so that their bad taste is masked. A similar problem is intrinsic to juices and all kinds of mixtures.
Mango: yes we use toilet papers, cars and computers, but these are irrelevant to diet!
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Thought I'd share a bit of my hour by hour experiment in case anyone else finds it as interesting as I do :)
I've been increasing the time, hour by hour, to see how long the 75/25 ground beef can sit at room temperature (80 degrees, with no air circulation or fans on). So far, I've been able to leave out a huge plate full of crumbled ground beef for 16 hours and it still tastes and smells great. To me this makes ground beef even more of the perfect food for RZC and the best bang for the buck.
I probably won't experiment anymore to find the maximum amount of time as I noticed that I prefer the meat when its only been out 4-8 hours or so, and is still a bit juicy. I also noticed that the more the meat dries and the texture stiffens, it doesn't seem to make me feel as full as that same quantity normally would, probably due to it being so dry and not having much water content, but perhaps oxidization somehow impacts the way my body processes the fats.
Dr.D, I was looking on Amazon for a glass tupperware set for traveling. Does it matter if the lid is plastic? Assuming the meat will not be resting on the plastic portion while I travel, I wasn't sure if this made any difference or not. If it does matter, do you have a particular brand of glass tupperware with glass lids that you recommend? Most of the ones I saw on Amazon didn't have such great ratings.
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I think it's contact that matters, so those should be fine. The reason for no plastic is not only toxicity but botulism loves to grow on plastic.
But why not use a jar? It's way cheaper to go through jars than to buy new tupperware. That's just me though.
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stainless steel with silicone lids is ideal for traveling. Wide mouth ball mason jars, the eight ounce kind with plastic lids are great day to day in a gym bag or man purse when you're out for the day.
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i didn't consider that, but it seems like a great idea, much cheaper too.
i've seen mason jars with the metal lids, a little larger than the size of a spaghetti sauce bottle.
is it safe for the raw meat to be in contact with the metal?
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thank you van, i will look into both options you mentioned.
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I get rid of those metal lids right away, and find online white plastic screw lids. The opening about 3-4 inches. The glass takes heat and is thick so it doesn't break being shuffled around.
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I use glass canning jars with plastic lids in my lunch tote, as well as for traveling and storage at home. I find that lidded glass containers, such as Lock and Lock brand, are too expensive.
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I also use glass mason/ball jars. They're great.
I cut the meat and fat I need for the day, place it into jars, and all my food is ready for the day. They're convenient and also very easy to clean.
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nice. thanks.
This is the brine I used:
1 quart of water
1-2 tbsp of sea salt
3 tbsp honey
1 tbsp of peppercorns
1 tbsp coriander seeds
1 tbsp mustard seeds
1/4 tsp cinnamon
4-6 whole cloves
½ tsp allspice berries (optional)
½ tsp juniper berries (optional)
1 tsp fresh minced ginger
½ tsp dried thyme leaf
2-3 garlic cloves, crushed or ½ tsp garlic powder
Lightly heat mixture until salt and honey dissolve. Let cool completely. Submerge meat and let sit at room temp for 24-36 hours.