Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: svrn on October 21, 2013, 01:59:09 am
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I will try to explain this precisely in the style of a geometric proof so people can contest specific points im making rather than debating in a disorganized manner.
1.vegetables and most fruit alkalize the gut
2. animal products acidify the gut.
3. a personal with an alkaline gut will crave more fruits and vegetables while a person with an acidic gut will crave animal products.
4. Whether your body tells you that you want animal products at the moment or plant products at the moment is more determined by the ph of your gut than whatever nutritional need your body may have elsewhere at the time.
5. Since the ph of your gut determines what you are craving at the time more than anything else and the PH of your gut is determined by what you have been previously eating this means that your percieved instincts are based more on what you previously ate than an actual nutritional need your body experiencing at the time.
THerefore simply following your percieved instinct above all else is not an accurate way of determining your bodies current nutritional needs since itis greatly affected by what you have eaten immediately preceding.
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I will try to explain this precisely in the style of a geometric proof so people can contest specific points im making rather than debating in a disorganized manner.
1.vegetables and most fruit alkalize the gut
2. animal products acidify the gut.
3. a personal with an alkaline gut will crave more fruits and vegetables while a person with an acidic gut will crave animal products.
4. Whether your body tells you that you want animal products at the moment or plant products at the moment is more determined by the ph of your gut than whatever nutritional need your body may have elsewhere at the time.
5. Since the ph of your gut determines what you are craving at the time more than anything else and the PH of your gut is determined by what you have been previously eating this means that your percieved instincts are based more on what you previously ate than an actual nutritional need your body experiencing at the time.
THerefore simply following your percieved instinct above all else is not an accurate way of determining your bodies current nutritional needs since itis greatly affected by what you have eaten immediately preceding.
Interesting hypothesis. Why would someone with an alkaline gut crave foods that alkalize the gut, and why would someone with an acidic gut crave foods that cause an acidic gut? Something to do with the composition of the microflora?
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you need a ph of about 7 to digest vegetation and fruit. You need a ph of about 5.5 in the gut to digest meat and dairy.
if your gut ph is 7 you will crave fruit because your gut will not be able to handle animal foods as well at the time.
if your gut ph is 5.5 you will not be able to digest fruit and vegetation as well. You need stronger acids to digest animal products.
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Why does the higher acidity not digest plant matter as well? Wouldn't a stronger (more acidic in this case) chemical break down matter better than an entirely neutral one?
I'm not sure I've experienced this. I do pretty well with digesting my meat (no lethargy as long as it's not overeating) and following up with a handful of veggies. Though I often include ferments from both plant and animal worlds almost daily.
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the reason is because the enzymes needed for plant digestion work best at an alkalinity of about 8.
cooked meat needs acidity in the stomach of appxmtly 3 while raw meats and dairy need appxmtly 5.5
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you need a ph of about 7 to digest vegetation and fruit. You need a ph of about 5.5 in the gut to digest meat and dairy.
if your gut ph is 7 you will crave fruit because your gut will not be able to handle animal foods as well at the time.
if your gut ph is 5.5 you will not be able to digest fruit and vegetation as well. You need stronger acids to digest animal products.
I thought that the pH inside the stomach was always acidic (optimal for certain proteases, such as pepsin), and that, upon entering the small intestine, the stomach contents were neutralised by bile salts, so that pancreatic and intestinal enzymes (with an optimal pH around about neutral) can continue digestion in the small intestine.
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I have read that microflora affect gut pH though.
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The Acid-Alkaline Myth
http://chriskresser.com/the-ph-myth-part-1 (http://chriskresser.com/the-ph-myth-part-1)
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The Acid-Alkaline Myth
http://chriskresser.com/the-ph-myth-part-1 (http://chriskresser.com/the-ph-myth-part-1)
As far as I can tell, Kresser doesn't address gut pH.
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this article debunks the obvious vegan/vegetarian pushed myth that eating alkaline food will solve all your health problems. It is irrelevant to anything I posted on here.
if you still think this article is relevant please quote a piece of the article and then tell which number in my original post that particular quote applies to.
Please follow this template for the sake of a logical argument. Or simply state that you mistakenly posted the article so we wont have to waste more time on that particular issue.
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Since the ph of your gut determines what you are craving at the time more than anything else and the PH of your gut is determined by what you have been previously eating this means that your percieved instincts are based more on what you previously ate than an actual nutritional need your body experiencing at the time.
Where did you read that from?
And what do you mean by 'gut'? Duodenum, Jejunum, Ileum, Caecum, Colon, Rectum have different PH levels.
if you still think this article is relevant please quote a piece of the article and then tell which number in my original post that particular quote applies to.
His saying that Acid-Alkaline discussions have little to do with ones health.
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i means stomach when I say gut for the most part.
It is pretty much common knowledge that and acidic stomach craves meats and dairy while an alkaline gut craves fruits and vegetables. There are endless amounts of studies on this coming from the vegan/vegetarian crowd although the conclusions they draw from these facts (being that you shouldnt eat any meat because it causes you to be acidic and stop craving fruits and veggies) are totally backwards and asinine the science is still totally there.
THis can also be confirmed by browsing the experiences of people who start doing the alkaline diet and suddenly all their cravings have changed to alkaline foods in the matter of days, such as this woman.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread54660.html (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread54660.html)
this type of experience is extremely common. The cravings change almost instantly once the stomach is alkalized.
If you want a specific study on this exact thing im not sure if it has been done so I may not be able to provide that for you, however, you will find that in the alkaline diet community for example, the anecdotal as well as the experiential evidence of many so called healers in that school of though overwhelmingly confirms that when people go on an alkaline diet their cravings for meat and dairy plummets right away.
THe stomach does have a tendency to revert back to acidity fairly quickly though, this is why you can drink a ton of cold pressed vegetable juices and start craving meat within a half hour or less but eating a big salad delays that craving for long periods, because the fibrous salad stays in your stomach for a much longer period of time, creating an alkaline environment which sticks around much longer.
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This thread does not belong to the instincto / anopsology forum... i will have to move this.
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I will try to explain this precisely in the style of a geometric proof so people can contest specific points im making rather than debating in a disorganized manner.
1.vegetables and most fruit alkalize the gut
2. animal products acidify the gut.
3. a personal with an alkaline gut will crave more fruits and vegetables while a person with an acidic gut will crave animal products.
4. Whether your body tells you that you want animal products at the moment or plant products at the moment is more determined by the ph of your gut than whatever nutritional need your body may have elsewhere at the time.
5. Since the ph of your gut determines what you are craving at the time more than anything else and the PH of your gut is determined by what you have been previously eating this means that your percieved instincts are based more on what you previously ate than an actual nutritional need your body experiencing at the time.
THerefore simply following your percieved instinct above all else is not an accurate way of determining your bodies current nutritional needs since itis greatly affected by what you have eaten immediately preceding.
I would wager instinctive eating only works with fully RAW and UNCONDIMENTED.
Anything cooked and condimented throws off the instinct.
At the same time it would be dangerous and ludicrous to say we should be ignoring instinct.
In my experience with healing people... I solicit from the patient / pregnant woman their INSTINCT, their CRAVINGS... which by my experience should be given the first shot even over ruling sometimes the healer's first guesses. Hands on experience on that patient should over rule any "theory".
Pregnant women not being able to satisfy their cravings can and do lose their babies... must be lack of nutrition or something.
My healing experiences and personal rpd experience disagrees with this alkaline gut theory.
For my personal experience, it is my instincts that control the quantity of animal food I consume over the days, weeks and months. Year 2 and 3 meat consumption at 500 to 600 grams per day vs declining year 4 and 5 to todays less than 200 grams per day is to my knowledge something instinctive that my body tells me.
And might I add, I follow the fruit seasons in my country... so at the same time I am forced by the availability or unavailability of certain fruits.
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The questions at hand here are as follows.
Does eating vegetation cause a condition in the stomach where one craves more vegetation and does eating animals cause an environment in the stomach where one craves more meat?
If this is so does that mean that a persons cravings are dictated by their immediate gut environment as opposed to whatever nutritional needs that person has in their body at the time? or perhaps both of these things play a role in what the person craves at the time?
and just to be clear, this is all in the context of a person eating a 100% raw diet.
i am not trying to discuss anything else on this thread.
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Interestingly a few weeks ago I did a urine pH test. I was as alkaline as the thing could read. It measured maximum 7.5 and that's what I was.
I digest plant and animal foods very well. I eat lots of animal fats and also eat about 6-8 servings of fruit daily.
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that is completely irrelevant, the ph of the urine and the ph of the stomach will almost always be totally different.
many foods such as apple cider vinegar or lemons will acidify the stomach while alkalizing the blood. The urine test means nothing in relation to this thread.
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I have to say this is not especially accurate in my own personal diet. If I've been eating a lot of fruit, then I tend to crave fatty animal foods. The opposite is true, so if I've been eating a lot of fatty meat/fish, I will find myself wanting some fruit.
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I'm not buying any of this either. People who go vegan etc. do it with such religious determination that they can't even acknowledge desires for animal protein. Years ago when I was one, I'd smell meat cooking outdoors and salivate, but deny my cravings. I still crave both meat and fruit. Like Cherimoya and Iguana, cravings for both classes are common experience. I think what you're confusing this with is when someone goes vegetarian, their ability to create strong stomach acids diminish due to not needing them. Hence, when they try to eat meat (and they almost always eat it with an accompanying salad or carbohydrate to feel like they've balanced their meal, or for calories) they don't digest it well, and THINK that it's poison and their mental experience then keeps them on their straight and narrow path of ultimate health of vegetarianism..... Now if you want to talk about what sort of colonies of bacteria meat eaters and veg. eater have in their colons, that's a different story in terms of what may drive them to eat and support those colonies. For the numbers are significantly higher that all the cells in the rest of our bodies put together.
I'd also like it svrn if you'd say when you're parroting Aajonus, as opposed to seemingly trying to state a fact.
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I'd also like it svrn if you'd say when you're parroting Aajonus, as opposed to seemingly trying to state a fact.
And I'd like a pony, since we're wishing for thing we probably won't get. ROFL
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i actually learned about all this when I was doing the alkaline diet. Dr. Young wrote about this extensively and tony robbins would go on for hours about how eating vegetables would make you crave more vegetables and how one meat meal could ruin everything.
All the alkaline diet people wrote a million books about this stuff...except their conclusions were 100% backwards lol. Their facts were right for the most part but the conclusions they drew from there were the opposite of the proper conclusions.
go to any alkaline diet forum theyll tell you exactly what im telling you about cravings.
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many foods such as apple cider vinegar or lemons will acidify the stomach while alkalizing the blood.
The human body uses several mechanisms that prevent the pH of the blood deviating from a pH of approx 7.35, no matter what you eat. I think the article by Chris Kresser, which ys provided, covers them.
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i actually learned about all this when I was doing the alkaline diet. Dr. Young wrote about this extensively and tony robbins would go on for hours about how eating vegetables would make you crave more vegetables and how one meat meal could ruin everything.
All the alkaline diet people wrote a million books about this stuff...except their conclusions were 100% backwards lol. Their facts were right for the most part but the conclusions they drew from there were the opposite of the proper conclusions.
go to any alkaline diet forum theyll tell you exactly what im telling you about cravings.
Yes, but it doesn't work this way for people who eat a very balanced diet, like many of us do. All of the mono-style eaters here (who aren't low-carbers) would agree that they tend to crave whatever they need, and that indulging in a lot of watery fruit, for instance, creates a craving for fat/meat.
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Yes, but it doesn't work this way for people who eat a very balanced diet, like many of us do. All of the mono-style eaters here (who aren't low-carbers) would agree that they tend to crave whatever they need, and that indulging in a lot of watery fruit, for instance, creates a craving for fat/meat.
Just out of interest, what is your definition of a (very) balanced diet? Just a diet that contains all necessary minerals and vitamins? Or a diet that has a certain macronutrient ratio? Or a certain plant to animal food ratio? Most people who know what I eat (which I think is similar to a lot of people on this forum) believe that my diet is not balanced, because it does not resemble the "healthy balanced diet" that is recommended by government bodies and illustrated by the food pyramid. I think the mainstream definition of a balanced diet is a diet that contains a large variety of different foods, comprising foods from a variety of different food groups.
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The human body uses several mechanisms that prevent the pH of the blood deviating from a pH of approx 7.35, no matter what you eat. I think the article by Chris Kresser, which ys provided, covers them.
Precisely, the whole acid/alkali theory is a bogus myth.
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Just out of interest, what is your definition of a (very) balanced diet? Just a diet that contains all necessary minerals and vitamins? Or a diet that has a certain macronutrient ratio? Or a certain plant to animal food ratio? Most people who know what I eat (which I think is similar to a lot of people on this forum) believe that my diet is not balanced, because it does not resemble the "healthy balanced diet" that is recommended by government bodies and illustrated by the food pyramid. I think the mainstream definition of a balanced diet is a diet that contains a large variety of different foods, comprising foods from a variety of different food groups.
In that case, I meant a diet with a fairly balanced ratio of animal to plant foods. Of course, people in extreme cold climates probably shouldn't eat much in the way of plant foods, but...humans aren't fully adapted to cold climates, anyway. We have neither fur nor blubber.
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it is totally incorrect that peoples blood doesnt deviate from the normal ph. Many people have had blood tests done showing that they are either too acidic or too alkaline. THis is simple fact, everyone does not have the same blood ph or the same ph anywhere in the body for that matter.
as far as balance, any unhealthy act can remain for the most part undetrimental as long as you keep it below a certain level. THis is true for every toxin.
as long as you keep your plant consumption down to a certain level it wont affect your meat cravings but once you reach a certain point it DOES start to have a detrimental effect.
THIS IS TRUE FOR EVERY SINGLE TOXIN IN THE WORLD.
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as far as balance, any unhealthy act can remain for the most part undetrimental as long as you keep it below a certain level. THis is true for every toxin.
as long as you keep your plant consumption down to a certain level it wont affect your meat cravings but once you reach a certain point it DOES start to have a detrimental effect.
THIS IS TRUE FOR EVERY SINGLE TOXIN IN THE WORLD.
When did plant foods become toxins?
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i didnt say it was a toxin only that it was detrimental. and that even complete toxins are totally ineffectual at a low enough dose. When brought to a low enough level anythign is negligible, my point is that one should be careful to make sure it stays at a negligible level if ones interest is personal health.
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I see svrn is as usual peddling nonsense re the acid alkali theory and blood ph:-
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html)
http://www.gll-getalife.com/2013/05/acid-alkaline-diet/ (http://www.gll-getalife.com/2013/05/acid-alkaline-diet/)
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I see svrn is as usual peddling nonsense re the acid alkali theory and blood ph:-
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html)
Please do not link to quack watch. That is the epitome of the pharmaceutical medical industry.
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Please do not link to quack watch. That is the epitome of the pharmaceutical medical industry. Sucks so bad.
I do not see them or anything else as irredeemably evil. Even evil people have some good in them, or some useful data to provide.
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lol! citing quackwatch???
talk about discrediting yourself.....
and can people stop linking to articles debunking the clearly bullshit alkaline diet?
cant you see im not promoting that diet? If anything im promoting THE EXACT OPPOSITE
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lol! citing quackwatch???
talk about discrediting yourself.....
and can people stop linking to articles debunking the clearly bullshit alkaline diet?
cant you see im not promoting that diet? If anything im promoting THE EXACT OPPOSITE
Irrelevant. The fact is that the notion of acid/alkali theory re blood is comprehensively debunked so your b#llsh#t is a joke.
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I think quackwatch.org is irredeemably evil. It is a tool to discredit anything that is not part of the western pharmaceutical hospital industry... meant to malign anything that may challenge their industry. Its sole purpose is to keep the poor people boxed into their industry paradigms.
From what I have read in this thread, svrn is not peddling the blood acid / alkali balance theory... he's peddling a different idea about GUT alkalinity... which he thinks keeps people from eating instinctively. Which was wrongly posted in the instincto forum...
The questions at hand here are as follows.
Does eating vegetation cause a condition in the stomach where one craves more vegetation and does eating animals cause an environment in the stomach where one craves more meat?
If this is so does that mean that a persons cravings are dictated by their immediate gut environment as opposed to whatever nutritional needs that person has in their body at the time? or perhaps both of these things play a role in what the person craves at the time?
and just to be clear, this is all in the context of a person eating a 100% raw diet.
i am not trying to discuss anything else on this thread.
My observation with myself and my children and the people I've assisted personally.
"Does eating vegetation cause a condition in the stomach where one craves more vegetation and does eating animals cause an environment in the stomach where one craves more meat?"
NO. NO. NO.
"If this is so does that mean that a persons cravings are dictated by their immediate gut environment as opposed to whatever nutritional needs that person has in their body at the time?"
THIS IS NOT SO.
Given enough time... People get sick of just meat. Or just fruit. Or just vegetables.
Nobody is purely Carnivorous for life.
Nobody is purely Vegan for life.
Nobody is purely Fruitarian for life.
There is such a thing as vitamin VARIETY.
In our entire human life, we will have eaten quite a variety of stuff.
My time frame is an entire human life span.
Vitamin VARIETY rocks... people want it... people are curious... people will try new stuff...
As I have said before, it is easy to understand nutritional requirements via INSTINCT especially in the case of SICK people and PREGNANT women. Their instincts kick in. Whether they want to eat or not, whether they crave to eat something or whether something is repulsive.
This hypothesis is so screwed up.
It's been thoroughly debunked.
Can we close this thread now?
Topic closed for lack of merit.