Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: TylerDurden on February 03, 2014, 02:30:26 am
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There is a current claim that the Inuit are able to do a 100% animal food diet because they all have enlarged livers. Can any successful RZCer confirm that they have large livers? I am just wondering if the reason I failed on RZC was simply because I had too small a liver.
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Good question. They presumably developed their large livers over thousands of years. I don't think it makes sense to try to do that within a single lifetime.
ZC is even more dangerous than I realized. If anything, I would have been even harsher about it in the past if I knew what I know now.
The larger Inuit livers provide them with more glycogen, which I'll bet kept them from running out of glycogen during the night if they were well fed, even though they were often not getting much carbs. Doesn't make sense to try to do what they did with a small liver.
Plus, even Eskimos didn't pass up Eskimo potatoes and probably also ate the fermented stomach contents of animals, at least a little bit. And who knows how important their high meats/fish/birds were, which were not prepared the way Aajonus claimed, as Eric pointed out.
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I am not so worried. There do seem to be a number of people who do well on RZC here. I am just wondering what makes them successful on it. I used to think that it was their bodies' extreme reaction to carbs that somehow made them more able to live off a protein/fat diet.
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Don't know; maybe plenty of organ intake, like Lex, helps. ZC can seem successful in the shorter term, and then later suddenly go seriously wrong, especially with cooked ZC, from what I've seen. It may take years for the problems to become obvious. So short-term experiments with it probably don't tell much.
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Well, eating lots of different raw organ-meats did not help me when I tried RZC.
What are you referring to re cooked ZC going wrong? Do you mean, Charles and his followers are all suddenly suffering from health problems?
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Well they have been reporting problems for years, with many quitting it, not so much Charles the last I saw.
I have seen reports recently around the Internet of people doing cooked very low carb, not even necessarily zero carb, developing many minor and some even serious health problems, from cold fingers and toes to Raynaud's, Hashimoto's and other autoimmune illnesses.
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Who is 'Charles'?
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Charles is a dude who has a ZC blog/forum who unfortunately was influenced by the eccentric King of Acid and soundman for the Grateful Dead who went by the name Bear Stanley and believed that people should eat only meat. He later developed throat cancer and attributed it to eating broccoli in his youth (probably partially tongue in cheek). Not long ago Bear died in a car crash, IIRC. Unfortunately several hundred people were influenced by the Bear and Charles. I met Charles once and he came across as surprisingly reasonable and friendly, but he unfortunately feels certain that ZC is the way to go and dismisses all evidence to the contrary, no matter how many of his followers report negative results (when they do they get banned from his forum).
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ZC is even more dangerous than I realized. If anything, I would have been even harsher about it in the past if I knew what I know now.
Elaborate please :)
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Elaborate please :)
Yes, please elaborate, for you've made some pretty strong statements, without a lot of supportive info.
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I'm not looking to debate people, only warn. Those who are experiencing symptoms sometimes called "low carb flu" will I hope be interested. See more here:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster)
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You're just sending us in circles,, or repeating yourself. Do you have any real sources of those who have failed,, and with details?
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I am not so worried. There do seem to be a number of people who do well on RZC here. I am just wondering what makes them successful on it. I used to think that it was their bodies' extreme reaction to carbs that somehow made them more able to live off a protein/fat diet.
I don't know how you went about a RZC diet but what seems to work for me is being sure to get a minimum of 75-80% of calories from fat and at least 15-20% from protein. Since I go to the gym 6 days a week, 20% of my calories from protein is more ideal. I'm also sure to include plenty of organ meat, water, some sea salt, vitamin d (whether from the sun or a cod liver oil supplement if I can't get out), and iodine.
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I don't know how you went about a RZC diet but what seems to work for me is being sure to get a minimum of 75-80% of calories from fat and at least 15-20% from protein. Since I go to the gym 6 days a week, 20% of my calories from protein is more ideal. I'm also sure to include plenty of organ meat, water, some sea salt, vitamin d (whether from the sun or a cod liver oil supplement if I can't get out), and iodine.
That sort of thing did not work for me at all.
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You're just sending us in circles,, or repeating yourself. Do you have any real sources of those who have failed,, and with details?
Spanish Caravan is a physician who reported that VLC Paleo patients are suffering from serious autoimmune illnesses. For more info, please see Spanish Caravan's blog comments that I linked to in the other thread.
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Low carb flu = dehydration.....
I know CW is totally against a ZC diet - so it will not be hard to find studies that support its dangers (you should look closer at the studies tho and you will soon realize their are all flawed and no way to be used to show a good quality RAF diet is dangerous) but that does not concern me at all. CW is full of crap anyways.
In Sweden the government have now accepted the high fat low carb diet to be a healthy option to reverse illness. Believe it or not! It is the first country in the world that does this. The HFLC diet is now very popular in Sweden. So many people have gotten huge benefits from it. And it is not even raw. Imagine. They just cannot deny the benefits diabetics and overweight people etc. have gotten on this diet.
I surely believe high carbs especially fructose is not good for our health and longevity at all. Can we feel good from it short term? Of course. But better go and check your labs and teeth... they will give you a hint where you are going.
I very much believe wild carbs in season are great for us tho. But they are so different from the cultivated ones!
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Peter at Hyperlid (Blog) has a lot of great stuff about this issue if anyone is interested. He also shows how flawed many studies regarding ketose / high fat diets are and why.
He is a pretty bright guy me thinks. A vet. And has done his research. He and his wife eats a keto diet since many years too feeling great.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.fi/ (http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.fi/)
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CW is full of crap anyways.
Who / what is CW ?
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That sort of thing did not work for me at all.
Maybe you just didn't give your body enough time to adapt?
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Maybe you just didn't give your body enough time to adapt?
My body was falling apart at the time, I had gotten severely loosened teeth which I had only had pre-RPD diet, I was also becoming ravenously hungry and thirsty all the time which never got sated, and I was so tired I could barely walk. After 5-6 weeks of going RZC I was simply unable to carry on with it.
Of course, others have done rather well on RZC. I was just wondering if there was one particular characteristic that meant that only those who had it were able to do RZC.
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Who / what is CW ?
common wisdom ;)
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Tyler... you say you got thirsty. Did you had more water then? How much did you have / day, do you remember? What kind of water, tap water or spring/other high quality water?
How much protein did you eat and how much fat... about.
How was your diet looking previous to your raw ZC experiment. Your lifestyle? Did you work a lot on the computer... spending much time indoors and going late to bed?
(I am wondering about EMF exposure because it is dehydrating and would make the transition worse)
Sorry if I am curious but I really am... ;)
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My body was falling apart at the time, I had gotten severely loosened teeth which I had only had pre-RPD diet, I was also becoming ravenously hungry and thirsty all the time which never got sated, and I was so tired I could barely walk. After 5-6 weeks of going RZC I was simply unable to carry on with it.
Of course, others have done rather well on RZC. I was just wondering if there was one particular characteristic that meant that only those who had it were able to do RZC.
Sounds like a thyroid/hormonal imbalance. Research indicates lower carb diets decrease T3(thyroid) levels. I'd place a bet that your iodine levels were low and your thyroid was struggling to keep up with production of hormones because of the sudden drop in carbohydrates. Were you eating any type of iodine rich foods during your RZC diet? Were you getting enough Vitamin D? I think these are crucial to success. If you ever decide to go RZC again, I would suggest doing some research on what I had mentioned.
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I think our brain needs Iodine to be able to use ketones well so an Iodine deficient person would have issues with a ketotic diet.
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I think our brain needs Iodine to be able to use ketones well so an Iodine deficient person would have issues with a ketotic diet.
This is a super interesting insight.
How about salt intake?
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I think our brain needs Iodine to be able to use ketones well so an Iodine deficient person would have issues with a ketotic diet.
Iodine is found in every cell and gland in the human body. It would seem nonsensical to assume Iodine wouldn't play a part in the ketone metabolic process.
'Your thyroid gland produces two main hormones, thyroxine and triiodothyronine, that influence every cell in your body. They maintain the rate at which your body uses fats and carbohydrates, help control your body temperature, influence your heart rate and help regulate the production of protein. Your thyroid gland also produces calcitonin, a hormone that helps regulate the amount of calcium in your blood.'
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Very interesting. Maybe this is why Inuit did as well as they did on a high fat, low carb diet. Lots of sea food, assumedly high in iodine. And why Inger seems to do well, eating modest amounts of sea food and sea vegetables.
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It is indeed, maybe iodine enables one to do better on a mostly ketogenic diet, but the Eskimos were an extreme society that it would be difficult to emulate elsewhere, so even with iodine, it's probably a risky approach.
I've noticed that raw vegans and fruitarians tend to report many of the same symptoms as VLCers / VLC Paleo dieters, such as worsening cold tolerance, and one common tendency is low intake of resistant starch. Wish I had known about RS long ago. I think I would have seen the connection quickly and more quickly realized that there was something seriously wrong with VLC and all diets with low intakes of RS.
I had found that increasing my fat intake temporarily helped to make me feel warmer, but then it declined again. Unfortunately, by increasing my fat intake, I lowered my carb intake even more. It was RS I was missing, not eating fat. It seems that getting fat from one's own bacteria helps warm the body more throughout the day than just eating lots of fat at meals.
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It is indeed, maybe iodine enables one to do better on a mostly ketogenic diet, but the Eskimos were an extreme society that it would be difficult to emulate elsewhere, so even with iodine, it's probably a risky approach.
I've noticed that raw vegans and fruitarians tend to report many of the same symptoms as VLCers / VLC Paleo dieters, such as worsening cold tolerance, and one common tendency is low intake of resistant starch. Wish I had known about RS long ago. I think I would have seen the connection quickly and more quickly realized that there was something seriously wrong with VLC and all diets with low intakes of RS.
I had found that increasing my fat intake temporarily helped to make me feel warmer, but then it declined again. Unfortunately, by increasing my fat intake, I lowered my carb intake even more. It was RS I was missing, not eating fat. It seems that getting fat from one's own bacteria helps warm the body more throughout the day than just eating lots of fat at meals.
I'm sure raw vegans and fruitarians are deficient in quite a few minerals and vitamins and not just Iodine. By the way, starch functions just like carbohydrates when it comes to speeding up thyroid hormone production. I'm sure you know where this is headed...
Risky? Well, it hasn't seemed risky so far but if and when I start to notice any sign of my health deteriorating I'll have to make some changes.
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That sort of thing did not work for me at all.
Tyler, I'm curious as to how you were measuring your fat and protein intakes when you were ZC. I think you may not have been eating enough fat. You said you've tried the 80% (Calories from Fat) / 20% (Calories from Protein)..
From time to time I've noticed when adding my own raw fat into my diet, I'd measure out say 100g of pure fat. I would count that as an extra 100g of fat to my total intake when really pure fat is only 60-80% fat, the rest being water and connective tissue as Lex mentioned. I've always ran into problems when not taking this into consideration.
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Tyler, I'm curious as to how you were measuring your fat and protein intakes when you were ZC. I think you may not have been eating enough fat. You said you've tried the 80% (Calories from Fat) / 20% (Calories from Protein)..
From time to time I've noticed when adding my own raw fat into my diet, I'd measure out say 100g of pure fat. I would count that as an extra 100g of fat to my total intake when really pure fat is only 60-80% fat, the rest being water and connective tissue as Lex mentioned. I've always ran into problems when not taking this into consideration.
I made a real effort to add in lots of raw fat into my diet during my RZC experiments. I even went to extremes and would eat plates consisting entirely of raw tongue or raw marrow for my meals. I also included quite a lot of raw seafood during such experiments.
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your body may not have converted over to utilizing as much fat that you had consumed. I find there is a most definite stop when eating fat alone, especially bone marrow... much more than meat. Also eating too much fat with meat, in my experience, slows down the digestion of meat to a point where one can feel lethargic. I often snack on just fat to make sure I get enough and don't overeat it with meat, as it's so yummy that way, or, the stop is not noticeable when combined.
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Were you experiencing any diarrhea and/or nausea, Tyler?
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Were you experiencing any diarrhea and/or nausea, Tyler?
No diarrhea, no vomiting.
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If the Inuit do have larger livers I don't think it is because they're born that way. I think it's just the nature of the organ. You can remove half of someone's liver and it will grow back as long as it is healthy. It could be that an increased need for gluconeogenesis might cause the liver to grow a bit. I can't post links but there is a recent post on Free the Animal with references showing that the Inuit were not in ketoisis. This would increase their need for glucose and GNG. Also, the higher fasting glucose we see in some non-Inuit carnivores suggests that they have no problem with hypoglycemia.