Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: Raw Kyle on February 05, 2009, 06:14:46 am
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How long would a zero or very low carb dieter take to adapt to no carbs? By adapting I mean convert to using ketones (which can be measured by urine ketone analysis) and losing carb cravings (subjective measurement)?
Also, if you wanted to have a cheat day on your diet, how often would be too often to stay adapted to very low or zero carbs? For example, if once a week you wanted to have one meal where you ate whatever you wanted, carbs, cooked etc, would that mess you all up? My experience has been that this usually causes discomfort from bloating, so I would guess that the body is struggling to digest that stuff. Maybe in the zero carb world there isn't really room for cheating with carbs? You could cheat on raw I suppose with a cooked low carb paleo food, as I've done that and haven't experience the problems I get when eating non paleo and carb heavy fair, whether raw or cooked.
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I am hoping someone zero carb will answer this. I can't as I eat some plant foods. Plus, I am only 50-75% raw on any given day. However, I am limiting plants pretty drastically now. Basically, I eat about twice a day now, and I eat any plant foods only with the bigger, evening meal. Those consist solely of salad greens, onions, garlic, herbs and/or lacto-fermented cabbage or whatnot. I might have a red bell pepper or homemade salsa once in a while. I drink red wine some nights. I think it takes 8-16 weeks to adapt, less if your carbs have been low. That said, Tyler never did adapt to zero carb, so there is that possibility as well.
But I would think that the cheat meals would have to be pretty restrictive to be of much use on a long term basis. You know, eat sweet fruit once a week. Cooked carbs like starches or beans would be the worst - just think of your poor digestive system. Exactly what you say: if you cheat, keep it paleo. But really, once you go VLC, you will probably have no desire to cheat, at least not on sweets. Maybe cooked meat or soup. That is how I feel now, and it's the first time ever I think that I don't have a desire to eat, say, hummus, if I prepare some for my guys with the leg of lamb I am preparing for dinner. Tortilla chips have always been my downfall, and I have no desire for them at all any more (which is good cuz they are crap). And I don't have to shop all the time for fresh produce, which is really cool. This WOE saves money in a big way.
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if the elimination of dietary plants, a prey of fungi, causes candida die off things may get more challenging
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I have been on carnivore diet since Jan 10. I mostly eat five eggs yolks and some dried meat in the morning and 1.5 pounds of sirloin steak in the evening. It was only the first day that my pulse went from around 60 beats per minutes to around 80. I think I didn’t eat enough. I lost 2-3 pounds. One positive effect is I no longer have a white coating on my tongue.
Previously, I was 100% raw for three and a half years. Now I have to pan sear my steak for 30 seconds on each side. It doesn’t do much just have a little brown layer on each side. By doing so, I can eat a larger quantity of beef to satisfy my energy requirement since I don’t obtain energy from coconut milk and avocado any more. I try to go to the bathroom once a day. It takes a long time to get it out since no much comes out.
I hope it won’t cause me any problems.
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in my own experience & current understanding, the signs of the so-called ketone adaptation are likely to be either signs of candida die off (google this for details) or of premature meals
premature meals:
in my experience, the body works at its best when given the necessary time to process the food in the mouth all the way to waste in the toilet bowl -- including everything nutrition-wise in between
in my experience, the raf only foodstyle calls for longer inter-meal periods than the omnivore
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SilentBuddy,, it reads like you 'should' be eating more fat in your diet. Although, I obviously don't know how much fat is on the meat you are eating.
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when living 100% on raf, a raw animal meal is so intense an experience that it cannot be done too soon or too often
preparing the scene is part of the process
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in my own experience & current understanding, the signs of the so-called ketone adaptation are likely to be either signs of candida die off (google this for details) or of premature meals
premature meals:
in my experience, the body works at its best when given the necessary time to process the food in the mouth all the way to waste in the toilet bowl -- including everything nutrition-wise in between
in my experience, the raf only foodstyle calls for longer inter-meal periods than the omnivore
Okay, I can go along with the candida hypothesis when considering a switch to vlc diet, but why would premature meals cause symptoms of ketone adaptation? I agree that feeding should be less frequent on RAF, and depending on personal schedule, the time between total fast (probably with sleep) should be prolonged before first meal of the day.
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i see
you're absolutely right: my post suffers from poor wording
i was referring to 2 separate things:
{1} as you say, candida die off can be a trigger of what has been called "ketone adaptation" but is actually the adaptation to the elimination of dietary plants, which had been feeding systemic fungi for some time/years
{2} premature meals as a different trigger of the "ketone adaptation" symptoms: if 100% raw animal food is taken, w/ 0 fruits, 0 veggies, 0 coconut oil etc, the body needs some time between meals to process the (new to it) animal diet
if that between meal time is not allowed by the eater, who continues -- just as it was habitual in the past (snacking on bananas every hour or avocados + tomatoes 3 x daily) -- eating raw animal food 3 x daily the body may get to the point of feeling overwhelmed > heart palpitations, low strength, diarrhea/constipation, etc.
in any case, this is just my own finding
it would be interesting to compare this to the experiences of others for further clarification
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I think I'm going to start Lex's suggested protocal of flesh diet with perhaps one piece of fruit allowed a day. Maybe I'll go every other day. For now I am doing some AV style lubrication drinks with butter to see how that works, but so far I'm not impressed and will most likely discontinue them when my butter supply runs out.
So hopefully within a couple of weeks I'll be doing muscle/fat/organs with occassional fruit (no more than one piece a day, or I guess a handful of berries) and see how that works out. Then perhaps down the road a few months I can cut out the fruit. It would be nice to know exactly how much carbs you can consume and still adapt to use ketones. I should probably get some of those ketone measurement sticks to chart my progress.
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"I'll be doing muscle/fat/organs with occassional fruit (no more than one piece a day, or I guess a handful of berries) and see how that works out"
good luck!
in contrast to this plan, here's my own experience:
i've tried eating limes w/ a raw meat meal -- limes do not contain the sugar load that lemons or berries have -- what happened? the same as if i drink water during a raw meat meal: the lime juice or water will sit in my stomach for 8-12 hrs (i.e. overnight)
the only foods i can possibly mix w/ raw animal food is bacteria (spirulina) or protoctist (pieces of dry seaweed i soak in my saliva)
period
no plant or fungi stuff
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i take that period back
i do need something to go w/ my raw animal food: a bit of a brine made of deionized (fully demineralized tap water) & hawaii sea salt blended w/ red clay
away from meals i drink the same water but this time structured w/ a dash of hawaii sea salt blended w/ volcanic lava + epsom salt (= magnerium & sulfur) -- sea salt:epsom salt = 3:1
{hawaii sea salt + red clay = acidic (ph 6)
hawaii sea salt + black lava = alkaline}
fare well
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that water tastes just like creek water running on moss & cress soon after emerging from a spring
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i keep my drinking water in the fridge
drink it all 8-48 hrs after preparing it
neither premature or stagnant
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as they say, time is of the essence:
~ if lime juice or water ingested during a raw animal meal do not flow, this does not necessarily mean that lime juice or water are bad for me; it simply means they are not to be included in a raw animal meal (wrong timing)
~ after preparing it, drinking water is best if used in a 8-48 hrs timeframe
~ in my case, eating more than 1ce daily would be stuffing myself w/ a premature meal
"Maybe in the zero carb world there isn't really room for cheating with carbs?"
whom are you cheating? who's your supervisor? who's taking score?
perhaps you want to implement an alternate day program: 1 day plant matter, the other day raw animal food
then, no matter what food type day you're currently enjoying you always have something else to look forward to & plenty of time to prepare the scene -- the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence
like water seeking its own level, your body will gradually find its own groove, carve its own niche
no one can tell what you might come up with
a month ago, nay a week ago, i could not tell that in a day like today i'd be doing what i've been doing today
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hey so im on week 3 of raw zero carb. not noticing anything positive really. my piss smells pretty rank, im getting headaches and what feels like growing pains in my arms and legs, and my bowel movements are pretty strange. has anyone else experienced these when going zero carb? any insight is appreciated... should i stick it out with the hope that my body will adapt or is 3 weeks long enough?
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Yes and give it another 3 weeks at least.
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hey so im on week 3 of raw zero carb. not noticing anything positive really. my piss smells pretty rank, im getting headaches and what feels like growing pains in my arms and legs, and my bowel movements are pretty strange. has anyone else experienced these when going zero carb? any insight is appreciated... should i stick it out with the hope that my body will adapt or is 3 weeks long enough?
I also get very unpleasant symptoms when i go zero-carb. I tend to also get ithem at the start of week 3, and then, by week 5, I feel like I'm on the verge of death with constant carb-cravings, rapid heartbeat, no appetite, feeling constantly dehydrated despite drinking lots of water, and much worse. I've never lasted beyond week 5.
My advice:- If you don't get worse, stick with it. But, if you do, give up on zero-carb, but try it every 6-12 months to see if your body can adapt. Zero-carb is tricky and some people can ease into it with no issues at all while others like me, do better on LC or VLC.
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You know, I tried very low carb (20g or less a day) for a few weeks back in July, and it just did not work for me. Stomach/digestion was way out of wack, breath started to smell bad, I even developed cavities.
But oddly enough, I can eat even fewer carbs than that now, and I'm just fine. The difference was that I transitioned instinctively. If you feel you need some fruit, then eat some occasionally. We are nowhere near a complete understanding of the biochemistry in our bodies. We don't know how things would be different if we were RP from conception to death, how that might affect gene expression down the generations, or what all happens biochemically when transitioning from SAD to RP or raw carnivore.
There are many chemicals and substances found in plant based materials that may be useful at different periods in your life, maybe when healing/repairing varying tissues, cells, and structures in our body from a lifetime of poor eating. Perhaps if we were in the habit of eating entire animals and insects, then maybe fruit would be totally unnecessary (I don't know), but from my own and reading other people's experiences, it seems that fruitveggies may be necessary for some - sometimes for temporary durations, or perhaps on a permanent basis.
Why I couldn't do near zero carb before but do great now, I don't know. Again, it's why I advocate becoming aquainted with your instincts, and work with / guide those inclinations with reasoning (that is, keeping it RP, or paleo at the very least).
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I found myself locarb by eliminating every food that either upset my stomach (ibs) or that i could see in the toilet in full form within an hour or so after eating it. this pretty much eliminated all the carbs for me except for raw honey, dairy, and eggs. This worked fantastically too, I felt great. Recently trying noncarb I thought would just be a mindful step in the direction my body was taking me in. But somehow I've managed to be the only person in the world who can not eat carbs and still gain non-lean weight. So, I'm not sure what to think of the adaptation process since it's been an obvious and major health improvement for me. But I know if I absolutely had to put carbs back into my diet I'm not sure how I could do it for my digestive issues.
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So i guess im on week 6 of raw zero carb and im feeling better than in weeks 3 or 4 but still havent noticed any breakthroughs regarding the candida symptoms im trying to get rid of. i still have pretty bad breath and a white tongue as well as some digestive problems. im just wondering if this is normal and i just need to go longer on the diet or if i should change up the fat/protein ratio? Also, i've noticed over the last week or so that i've been eating a lot less... just havent been hungry for the meat or fat. after only a half pound or so, the meat and fat starts to sound pretty unappealing.
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did any one else doing raw zero carb have really bad breath at the beginning? did it go away eventually? ever since doing zero carb my breath has been pretty horrid. any advise? i read up a little and it appears i have 'ketone breath'.
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You probably don't have ketone breath. I don't really believe in it. You may have some weird things going on in your guts because your bacteria are still getting used to digesting meat. Have you cheated?
How are your bowel movements?
Are you sure you have bad breath because I've imagined it before?
My brother found zero carb has cured his bad breath when all else failed. Took a couple of months and once his BM's were sorted out his breath did at the same time.
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did any one else doing raw zero carb have really bad breath at the beginning? did it go away eventually? ever since doing zero carb my breath has been pretty horrid. any advise? i read up a little and it appears i have 'ketone breath'.
I'd go with sorting out your colon. You could wait a few weeks to let raw food do its thing or you can use colon cleansers which are none-paleo. Like colon hydrotherapy, herbal colon cleanses, etc.
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You probably don't have ketone breath. I don't really believe in it. You may have some weird things going on in your guts because your bacteria are still getting used to digesting meat. Have you cheated?
How are your bowel movements?
Are you sure you have bad breath because I've imagined it before?
My brother found zero carb has cured his bad breath when all else failed. Took a couple of months and once his BM's were sorted out his breath did at the same time.
i haven't cheated with carbs but i did eat some cooked crawfish this weekend. that was a bad idea. my bowel movements are really small and a little green (sometimes i can see pieces of fat in them). im pretty sure i've got ketone breath. my test is i lick my forearm and wait 5 seconds; it smells pretty awful... i guess i should just give it more time?
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Hi Yon,
When I first went no carb I smelled horribly!! I don't know if it was a ketone thing or not, but my breath and body odor matched... so gross :( It started about two days in and lasted less than a week. I don't detect it anymore.
The thing is... is it really a ketone thing? I've detected the same smell on my college teammates when we'd show up for an early Saturday morning practice after they'd been drinking all night. I couldn't stand to be near them. Also, I've smelled the same sometimes when I visit my mom. She is a small person and mostly 'cooked-healthy', but she's working on her PhD and working full-time, and is a total stress eater. On these days that she overeats on garbage (pastry treats, frozen yogurt, chocolates) is when I detect the smell the most. My teammates and mom are all SAD eaters, fat phobic, and high carb eaters.
Also, I thought fat metabolites were supposed to be sweet on the breath?
So, I was thinking the (ketone?) smell may have been something to do with the liver?
Anyway, sorry for all the rambling Yon!, but I think it will go away soon ;)
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here's an idea that i came across on another forum: i may be keto adapted but if im over eating fats then there are excess ketones that my body is trying to get rid of (hence the bad breath- which is really the only complaint i have with zero carb so far). this seems plausible as i have thought for a while now that i eat too much fat. i usually eat only a little less by volume of suet/marrow to meat. i think i'll try reducing my fat intake for a while to see how that goes. does that make sense?
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The Bear, if you give him any substance, suggests that you eat your fat first and then when it no longer draws you in, start on the leaner parts. I tend to eat fat along with meat, grass fed, which is lean to begin with. But still try to see if during the meal, the fat tastes as good as when I started. You have to look for the 'stop'. Charles on his forum is always writing that eating more than you 'need' is not harmful... I tend to disagree,, as least from my standpoint of not having eaten meat for so long in my life and building enough stomach acid. I am experimenting with hcl powder for just that. It does help in overall digestion. It has been said that raw meat is a much more powerful body cleanser than fruit or vegetables. Thus I wouldn't touch the colon cleansers. If you are meant to eat ZC you will know over time. Just don't mess with it,, like only eat when you are hungry, and not just before bed.... For most people, it all subsides and gets easier each day.
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I think I ate too much fat in the beginning. I forced myself to 80%, I think it's too much. I didn't feel good. I'm now about 65-70% and that feels a ton better. From my communications with Lex, he indicated a similar experience. I'm still trying to figure out this out though, too. Let me know what you find works for you!
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update: i've lowered my fat intake considerably and feel much better overall. my energy seems higher, i don't notice my heartbeat after eating anymore, and my breathe seems like it is improving (still not great but i can tell its not as bad). i if i give this a few more weeks i should be feeling pretty awesome. also, my bowel movements seem to be improving.
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Well, this vindicates my own past experience that excess amounts of fat was not a good option, despite various claims by disciples of Stefansson.
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In the last few days I have been following my recent passed on advice from the Bear, and that is to eat the fattiest parts first till it no longer is tasting Great, and then on to the lean. It seems again, that the body knows just what it needs. For there is this 'stop' for both the fat and meat for me when doing this. It's really interesting how sometimes I want a lot of fat, and others, it just isn't appealing. I watch my dog a lot know when eating. He will eat what he likes also. He also eats raw. I place fat next to the meat for him.