Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Gallery => Display Your Culinary Creations => Topic started by: Satya on February 16, 2009, 09:03:05 pm
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No, sorry I have no pemmican pic. But I want one here! Oh please oh please, anyone who makes it please post up a photo of it. I make jerky all the time. I want to try to make pemmican, but I need some encouragement. TIA!
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does anyone know if you can make pemmican without heating the fat? like using marrow or something and just mixing that with the jerky or something. i've heard of people using raw coconut oil, but not sure if that works well. im really looking to make pemmican for traveling, so anyone got any ideas?
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does anyone know if you can make pemmican without heating the fat? like using marrow or something and just mixing that with the jerky or something. i've heard of people using raw coconut oil, but not sure if that works well. im really looking to make pemmican for traveling, so anyone got any ideas?
I don't think there is any method. Basically, the fat needs to be deprived of all moisture in order to be preserved. I'd imagine one could dry pemmican at 40 degrees celsius/104 degrees fahrenheit, but it would take ages.
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I'm not sure but from what I've read and just thinking about it in terms of how cells work I believe that the only way to get the moisture from the cells is for them to be burst, and the only way to do that is by heating them to the boiling point of water which then bursts the cells as the water begins to boil and then it evaporates out through the bursting points. If you could somehow get an instrument that could chop up the fat even down into the individual cells you could possibly dry them out at a low (below cooking) temperature, but clearly this is a matter of either science fiction or cost prohibition.
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well i guess i'll just have to suck it up and use rendered fat. does anyone know which fats might be less harmful when heated (ie. suet, marrow, hide fat, etc)?
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If you cut your meat thinly, you can dry it at 104 degrees Fahrenheit. It takes about 12 hours. As for fat, I rendered lard in a dehydrator at 135 degrees Fahrenheit. It took me about 12 hours. I got a lower yield because I could get all the fat out. I think I can do it at a lower temperature because the melting point of fat is not high. You have to try. Just blend your fat in a food processor and put a layer of it in a strainer. The fat will drip.
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Glennm01 and I just made about 6 lbs of pemmican yesterday. I believe he said he will be taking it with him on an out of town trip to Wisconsin or some other really cold place.
I've been making pemmican for years and the only fat that is really usable if you want both the nutritional and keeping quailties is from red meat animals like beef, bison, deer, elk, etc.
Satya, I've been asked to put together the pemmican manual and it's on my list, but it will take some time to do a thorough job of it. In the mean time, I think I'll be making another batch next week and will try to post a couple of pictures of the major points in the process. No pictures of fat rendering though as I rendered 65 lbs not to long ago so will be using from my stores.
Lex
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Yes indeed, Lex helped me make about a week's worth of pemmican the other day. To say the man has it down to a science would be a gross understatement. I'll be putting the pemmican to the test as my primary source of food during a week on the road starting tomorrow. Pretty cool that I've got a week's worth of food in my suitcase, and it takes up maybe a little more space than a pair of shoes. I'll let you guys know how it goes when I return, assuming I survive the icy Wisconsin tundra. Yes, we Los Angelenos are wussies as far as the weather is concerned...
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Satya, I've been asked to put together the pemmican manual and it's on my list, but it will take some time to do a thorough job of it. In the mean time, I think I'll be making another batch next week and will try to post a couple of pictures of the major points in the process. No pictures of fat rendering though as I rendered 65 lbs not to long ago so will be using from my stores.
Lex and Glenn,
It's great that you have this pemmican-making project going on. I think you ought to take it on the road, giving classes on how to make it where ever you go. This is something I am considering actually - raw foods prep in my area. Something to consider, but I always wonder about liability. A video demo of your pemmican would be so helpful too. I'll have to get off of my intentions and produce a video demo of carpaccio at the very least.
Well, I wasn't going to be the one to nag about the pemmican instructions that have been talked about for months now, especially after Lex produced such a fine jerky manual. Time for this sort of thing is not always available. But hey, perhaps if you wouldn't mind discussing amounts needed for pemmican here. I do have some suet - it's whatever my rancher said was best for pemmican, and it is raw now. And I sliced up a 5 pound top round roast this morning, half of which is now in the dehydrator. So what ratios in pounds or kilos of raw, undried meat to unrendered suet would I need? Do you season the meat for the jerky? Thanks for any information about basics.
An aside: One of my cats (all are fed pastured raw d & c from the farm) will not eat raw sliced jerky roast. But prepared jerky, watch out. He'll rip through a baggy to get the seasoned dried stuff.
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Satya,
The formula for pemmican is rather easy. It is just equal parts rendered fat and dried meat by weight. If you have 1 lb of thoroughly dried meat then you will need 1 lb of melted rendered fat. That's it. You must grind or shred the dried meat in a blender or food processor (or in my case I use the power grinder from hell that I made for a previous project). I know it's gross but the shredded meat should look sort of like ground chewing tobacco - a rather course, fiberous powder.
Then melt the fat and stir in the shredded jerky. I try to keep the temperature fairly low when melting the fat - maybe 130 to 150 deg max. I don't want to deep fry the dried raw meat with 300 deg fat. You just want it warm enough to melt. I then press the warm mixture into lined cupcake pans and set aside to cool. This will result in a rather hard, dense hockey puck. If you are using standard sized cupcake pans and pack the liners to the top of the pan, each puck should weigh about 80 grams and this works out to right at 500 calories each.
Lex
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So Lex, you and Glenn actually met off-line? or just gave advice via e-mail?
I'm just curious as I presume the majority of raw animal foodists are in the Los Angeles area where I presume you're both based?
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So Lex, you and Glenn actually met off-line? or just gave advice via e-mail?
I'm just curious as I presume the majority of raw animal foodists are in the Los Angeles area where I presume you're both based?
Hi Tyler,
Yes, Glenn and I have met face to face several times in the past few weeks. He wanted to see exactly what I do and how I do it as far as my normal daily food routine goes. He also wanted hands-on help in making jerky and pemmican so we set up a date to build the $10 jerky maker and prepare some jerky. A few days later we met to turn the jerky into pemmican. I think he had a great time and I had fun as well.
I've spent a lot of time figuring out how to make the things I do as simple as possible, and I enjoy passing along what I've learned to others. It seems I've always got someone coming over to work on some project or other. Keeps me busy and out of the bars! ;D
If anyone wants to drop by they are more than welcome. Just give me a little advance notice so that I'm sure to be home.
Lex
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If anyone wants to drop by they are more than welcome. Just give me a little advance notice so that I'm sure to be home.
Lex
Hi Lex, I have been in e-mail contact with "Delfugo"; have you met him face to face? Do you know if he adds salt to his pemmican? Does the original pemmican have salt and do you believe if the salt you add has any other plus point besides reducing cramps like hydration, digestion?
Do you notice any water retention if you don't move much - slower metabolism of water and nutrition?
Nicola
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Hi Nicola,
I've corresponded with Delfuego via E-mail but we have never met. He has told me that he does NOT add salt or any other seasoning to his pemmican. It is just dried red meat and rendered fat. He renders his fat in a very slow oven, a little over 200 deg F (around 100 deg C). It takes many hours to do it this way, but he has a process that works well for him and his family.
As far as I know the original pemmican did not have salt. It was just dried meat and rendered fat with the possible addition of 5% to 10% dried berries (tart berries similar to blue berries or wild strawberries). There is some controversy over the berries. We know from the Hudson Bay Company records that they did add berries but there is some speculation that the berries were only added at Hudson Bay Company request because their customers preferred it that way. I have no idea, but would not be surprised if the Native Americans added berries to the pemmican for their own use. It seems a little far fetched to me that a European company would tell the people who invented the food in the first place how to make it - especially since drying sufficient berries for this purpose would be a tremendous amount of work for very little additional profit. I suspect that a small amount of dried berries was a common addition to the original pemmican, but as with anything else, depended on their availability.
I don't notice water retention from the addition of a small amount of salt to my normal diet, however, I do experience a very large amount of water retention if I eat any significant amount of carbs. My activity level seems to have nothing to do with water retention.
Lex
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If you have 1 lb of thoroughly dried meat then you will need 1 lb of melted rendered fat. That's it. You must grind or shred the dried meat in a blender or food processor (or in my case I use the power grinder from hell that I made for a previous project). I know it's gross but the shredded meat should look sort of like ground chewing tobacco - a rather course, fiberous powder.
Thanks, Lex. I guess I should consult the jerky manual for drying times and temps. At least I assume your jerky instructions will work for the pemmican. I never am too strict about drying jerky, because it gets eaten by the wolves in my family within 2 days. I will have to thoroughly dry it and then hide it!
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Satya,
The meat (or dried berries if used) for pemmican should be thoroughly dry. It should crack and break when bent. It should not be rubbery at all. If there is much moisture in the meat, mold and other critters could grow and flourish - not an ideal situation. Similar to jerky, if you eat it right away then it doesn't matter much, but if you expect to keep it for more than a week or so the meat should be very dry.
Lex
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That's cool glen and Lex caught up. My first and only batch of pemmican went of and was truly revolting. I did render the fat long enough though. That Delfuego character is interesting...eating only pemmican for 9 years! amazing if true.
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Andrew,
I think Delfuego says he and his family have been eating only pemmican for about 4 years. This was in an effort to help his wife overcome some health issues, and it seems to have been successful beyond all they had hoped. He got the idea from Raymond Audette who wrote the book Neanderthin - good book by the way.
His children are rather young. I think one is 3 and the other is around 5 as I remember. Both now prefer pemmican to any other food. In fact, he tells a story where one of the kids was given a chocolate chip cookie or some such at a party and promptly threw it up. He eats about 3,600 calories worth, his wife eats around 1,800 calories worth, his oldest child eats around 1,200 calories, and the youngest comes in at 800 calories per day. They eat only once per day in the early evening.
Pemmican is an acquired taste, but once you get used to it you tend to like it better than most other alternatives. Glenn is going to try this cold turkey. He's never eaten pemmican before, but is going to attempt to eat this as his exclusive food while out of town for a full week. I took a bit of pitty on him and we did make the pemmican with lightly seasoned jerky rather than no seasoning at all, but I expect it will still be a bit of culture shock for him.
Lex
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I am wondering how Glenn is doing on his "Travels with Pemmican."
I have been fortunate enough to have sampled this fine pemmican that Lex and Glenn made. Much like a dense jerky, and very, very filling. It's a hit! I notice that the jerky within is really super dry - much drier than I usually make mine (but then, I steal it out of the dehydrator at various stages of dryness).
And now, without further ado, here is Lex's Famous Pemmican, shot by Lex himself (or maybe a friend?):
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I'm definitely jealous. I wish I had that on my last trip, I tried but failed in my first pemmican making attempt.
Could any rendered fat be used? For example, lard?
Also I was thinking of trying to make fish jerky. The next trip I take I want to have pemmican as my main food source, with jerky (fish and land animal hopefully) and then supplement with foods I get on my trip, like a few fruits or if there is a good quality source of RAF, or maybe even some cooked paleo fair occassionally.
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I've just completed a comprehensive Pemmican manual that uses the same format as my Jerky Maker manual. The pemmican manual covers a bit of history, as well as the entire process for making pemmican including rendering the fat, with pictures for every step. The picture that Satya posted is from the front cover.
Satay is proof reading it for me and when I get a thumbs up I'll try to get it posted with the Jerky Maker manual on the rawpaleodiet.com site.
Lex
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thank you so much! im so excited! i feel like i should be paying you or something...
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Wonderful news Lex! I look forward to reading that too. As someone else mentioned elsewhere though, I'm very interested in the possibilities of making pemmican without 'cooking' the fat - perhaps dehydrating it for long periods as I recall another member describing having tried. Have you any experience of that? I'm assuming that it's not possible otherwise you would be doing it!
Kyle, just thought I'd mention out of interest my experiences with 'travel food'. In the summer, I spent a week hiking in the Spanish and French Pyranees in hot sunshine and 'backpacking light'! My only source of food for the entire week was a large zip-lock bag of homemade beef jerky (seasoned with celtic sea salt & black pepper and dehydrated at 105 degrees) and a large tub of unpasteurised, cultured french butter. I would simply dip the jerky in the softened butter and eat until satiated. Firstly, it was absolutely delicious! (I'm now drooling at just the thought of it) and, more importantly, it provided me with the energy to hike 30 miles per day in the mountains for a whole week with no other food! There were also absolutely no issues with either food remaining fresh and edible. I suspect the fact that the butter was already cultured helped with this as, too, I believe it helped with it amazingly remaining solid. Personally, I'm no longer eating dairy but - if you are - this is perhaps something worth considering.
Michael
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Wonderful news Lex! I look forward to reading that too. As someone else mentioned elsewhere though, I'm very interested in the possibilities of making pemmican without 'cooking' the fat - perhaps dehydrating it for long periods as I recall another member describing having tried. Have you any experience of that? I'm assuming that it's not possible otherwise you would be doing it!
As far as I know this is not possible. The fat traps and seals the water into the tissue structure and the only way to release it is to heat the fat enough to release it from the cells and flashing the moisture to steam ruptures the cellular structure allowing the liquid fat to escape.
Kyle, just thought I'd mention out of interest my experiences with 'travel food'. In the summer, I spent a week hiking in the Spanish and French Pyranees in hot sunshine and 'backpacking light'! My only source of food for the entire week was a large zip-lock bag of homemade beef jerky (seasoned with celtic sea salt & black pepper and dehydrated at 105 degrees) and a large tub of unpasteurised, cultured french butter. I would simply dip the jerky in the softened butter and eat until satiated. Firstly, it was absolutely delicious! (I'm now drooling at just the thought of it) and, more importantly, it provided me with the energy to hike 30 miles per day in the mountains for a whole week with no other food! There were also absolutely no issues with either food remaining fresh and edible. I suspect the fact that the butter was already cultured helped with this as, too, I believe it helped with it amazingly remaining solid. Personally, I'm no longer eating dairy but - if you are - this is perhaps something worth considering.
The combination of butter and jerky is wonderful to say the least and accomplishes the same thing as pemmican. Pemmican is just jerky that has been ground to a fiberous mulch and then soaked with animal fat. Beef or bison tallow is very firm, almost like candle wax, which makes the resulting pemmican very solid and easy to pack and store - it won't melt at temperatures below 120 so the pemmican stays solid at just about any temperature you're likely to encounter. Animal fat, if from grass fed animials, also has a very high concentration of Omega 3 fatty acids which butter does not have. All that said, the jerky/butter combination is a great option - as long as you make the jerky yourself and don't rely on the sugary cooked commercail stuff.
Lex
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Animal fat, if from grass fed animials, also has a very high concentration of Omega 3 fatty acids which butter does not have. All that said, the jerky/butter combination is a great option - as long as you make the jerky yourself and don't rely on the sugary cooked commercail stuff.
Doesn't most of the Omega-3 fat oxidize when you heat it? Maybe you should add extracts of oregano or rosemary when preparing the fat?
"In the oil subjected to heating at 150 degrees Celsius in the absence of the herb extracts, only 15.9 per cent of DHA and 18.5 per cent of EPA remained in the fish oil. All of the EPA and DHA was found to have been oxidised in the extract-free oil incubated at 60 degrees Celsius for five days.
However, when one and five per cent oregano extract was added, the oil contained 39 and 66 per cent, respectively, of the original DHA content after heating at 150 degrees Celsius, and 45 and 69 per cent, respectively, of the original EPA content.
The highest retentions of DHA (57 per cent) and EPA (58 per cent) in fish oil with added rosemary were found for 2.5 per cent rosemary."
Source: http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/Oregano-rosemary-extracts-promise-omega-3-preservation
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18034711
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I've just completed a comprehensive Pemmican manual that uses the same format as my Jerky Maker manual. The pemmican manual covers a bit of history, as well as the entire process for making pemmican including rendering the fat, with pictures for every step.
A bit of history? The manual has grown greatly into a major, comprehensive work. I can't wait for everyone to see it. When you do post it, Lex, I'd like to know where you got that meat grinder, and the brand name. Thanks!
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I'm back from my week on the road, and here to report on my pemmican results. I'm afraid it didn't go so well. I mean, I really wanted to like the pemmican, but simply couldn't stomach the taste more than just a little bit each day. I was hoping I'd acquire a taste for it as the week went on, but if anything, the opposite happened. I'm heading back out on the road in a few days for another week and a half, and while I will bring some pemmican with me, I'm not overly optimistic that I'll want to make it anything more than a small part of my dietary intake.
Satya, regarding Lex's meat grinder, I've seen it in action first-hand, and it is indeed the meat grinder to end all meat grinders! I'm pretty sure he built it from scratch though. The man is one seriously resourceful dude...
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Sorry to hear that. I bought a good amount of pemmican from U.S. Wellness Meats and liked it well enough. It was a little too salty for my taste but other than that it was palatable.
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Hey Glenn, that's okay. My guys and I have been dipping pemmican pieces in salad dressing all afternoon, as I too need some seasoning. I love it with seaweed. It's a perfect snack, but I suppose unless you are used to it, it would be tough as the sole food source. Okay Lex, next we need a meat grinder instruction manual, LOL!
Kyle, if your pemmican is too salty, you should try Lex's method without seasoning. You can always dip it in some HOT SALSA or something. -d
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I'm definitely going to try Lex's method for sure. I'm tentatively planning a vacation in the Summer and would like to try and use pemmican as my primary food source.
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Okay Lex, next we need a meat grinder instruction manual, LOL!
I'm putting together a smaller grinder (#22) for a friend. It wouldn't be much more trouble to shoot pictures and and make a parts and assembly manual as I go along. The grinder is ordered from Choprite II. These are made in the US and are not cheap ($200-$300) but very robust compaired to the imported junk. The motor is an off the shelf gear-motor from Leeson. Again, not cheap ($500) but will last forever. You need a coupling sleeve from Dayton which is about $6, and then you have to make a spacer to raise the gearmotor so the shaft lines up with the grinder. I mill my spacer from metal but a dense wood like maple would work just as well and could be made on a table saw for only a couple of bucks.
I made two of the big #32's for a dog food project. They'll grind 800 pounds of raw meat per hour. They cost about $900 to build but a commercial grinder of similar size and capability is over $5K.
Lex
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Oh Lex, I was only joking, kind of. But my DH is quite this sort. You know, he changes timing belts, plumbs in water heaters. Heck, the 2 of us installed a transmission in his old '68 Buick Riviera. A meat grinder would be right up his alley. 8)
I shall patiently wait for this new manual in the coming months. But you know, this is something YOU could sell. The Rooker 2900 Deluxe Meat Grinder, I can see it now.
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But you know, this is something YOU could sell. The Rooker 2900 Deluxe Meat Grinder, I can see it now.
This idea sounds suspiciously like something that could turn into gainful employment. I did that for 42 years and have had enough of that. I'm now very busy spending my available free time trying to find lots of things NOT to do. There is just no way I could work a full time gig of making meat grinders into my already crowded schedule. I'm completely tied up doing absolutely nothing. Factor in breaks, meals, naps etc. and I now wonder how I ever found time for a JOB.
Lex
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One question that I have not seen addressed: can you incorporate organ meats in pemmican? This would approximate your daily organ/meat/fat mix more closely. I suppose you would have to heat organs above the boiling point of water, unfortunately.
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Not sure if that would work. After all, most organ-meats seem to have a higher water-content. Perhaps, heart or tongue, as they're basically muscle?
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One question that I have not seen addressed: can you incorporate organ meats in pemmican? This would approximate your daily organ/meat/fat mix more closely. I suppose you would have to heat organs above the boiling point of water, unfortunately.
A person, who has been eating Pemmican for 4 years mentioned making Pemmican from organs (heart, liver, kidney...). He has made Pemmican with suet, muscle fat and marrow too. I have been told off for posting this "top forum" in my messages so I will keep it "a deep secret".
Nicola
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Nicola, I have not the faintest idea what you are talking about. Please elaborate.
In any case, Dr.Rons Ultra-Pure sells freeze-dried bovine organs in capsule form:
http://www.drrons.com/grassfed-new-zeland-organs-glands-intro.htm
I bought some of them. It is possible to split the capsules, and poke out the powder contents: I found the supplements are quite tasty when eaten this way, even though they are freeze-dried.
The expiration date is more than a year in the future, and they contain the whole organs (which would include the fat, I assume), so I wonder how freeze-drying preserves the fat for so long. This would contradict Lex's statement that you had to heat the fat above boiling point to let the water out, because that is not how freeze-drying works.
One could add this powder to pemmican, the only disadvantage being that the supplements are highy expensive. I calculated $65 per kg of original organ (in the case of Organ Delight), plus shipping. But for an occasional travel food such as pemmican that might be acceptable.
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Nicola, I have not the faintest idea what you are talking about. Please elaborate.
Well I can understand the message and it is English; I have mentioned the person and the forum on pemmican in one of my messages and got told off - so -X.
Nicola
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I wonder how freeze-drying preserves the fat for so long. This would contradict Lex's statement that you had to heat the fat above boiling point to let the water out, because that is not how freeze-drying works.
Actually, that is exactly how freeze drying works. Moisture is removed by pulling a vacuum on the frozen material to be dehydrated which substantially lowers the boiling point of water and the ice essentially turns directly to a vapour without going through a liquid state. This process is call "sublimation" The water molecules can then migrate directly through the cellular walls of the material - much like water vapour can go through some modern fabrics but liquid water can't. Since you haven't heated the fat molecules, they do not melt and form a seal which traps the moisture. The amount of power required to run the refrigeration equipment, keep the material frozen yet warm enough for sublimation to occur (yes, you must continually add heat to the frozen food while at the same time running compressors to keep it frozen!), and then run a vacuum pump is staggering. It also takes a good bit of time so the process is very expensive even if you discount the huge initial cost of the equipment ( a small "table top" unit with a drying area of about 1 cubic foot will cost over $10,000 and weigh around 200 pounds).
In the tried and true low tech rendering process, I just heat the fat above the boiling point of water at sea level (212 deg F) to turn the moisture into a vapor and at the same time increase the vapour pressure so that it can escape the melted fat and tissue that surrounds it. I can do this at home using a $20 hot plate and a $5 pot. It's a simple matter of cost vs benefit.....
Lex
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Well, I think the Pemmican Manual is ready for prime time. Several people have reviewed it (many thanks to Satya and Raw Kyle on this forum as well as Mary Massung, Kata Strong, and "Delfuego" from other forums) and I've corrected the errors and omissions that they discovered. I would like to post it but it is about 1.5 MB in size and it appears that we can no longer post something of this size. Anyone have a suggestion on how to proceed with this?
Lex
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Lex, if you send me the final version, I can upload it to the traditionaltx.us site. (It's not an all raw website, but it is a healthy living site for Texans.) Then we can post a link here in this very thread. This will take 5 minutes max from the time I get the email, cuz it's cold outside today and I am home. I would also like to provide a link to it on the recipes page of the site found here, if you are game:
http://www.traditionaltx.us/recipes.htm
And then whenever Goodsamaritan or Tyler gets a chance, they can place it rawpaleodiet.com. How does that sound?
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Lex, you are absolutely right. It seems we had a bit of terminological misunderstanding. By boiling point I meant the normal boiling point (100 degrees Celsius):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point
Too bad freeze driers are so expensive.
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Okay, here it is, The Pemmican Manual:
http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf
Now, I am seeing some lines on the images. Perhaps that is due to compression or something?
I will link to this and the jerky recipe when I get the chance.
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Looks great to me Satya. There are compression artifacts in some of the photos but nothing that detracts from their value. I would have to use a much more generous compression setting to remove most of the artifacts and this would make the manual difficult for some people to download as it would be 20 mb or more. The additional resolution in the photos wouldn't add any significant value. The original MS Word file is just under 200 mb.
Lex
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If you are happy, then I am happy. I think you've become an honorary Texan, Lex. You now have 2 recipes on the "local recipes" section of that North Texas Traditional Living (http://www.traditionaltx.us/recipes.htm) website. Please point out any errors or changes you wish in the text. On the jerky recipe, I mentioned what a "great snake food" it was, lol. Who knows, maybe snakes would like it, but I had meant to say great snack food.
So whenever you get that meat grinder file done ... ;D
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Thank's for the manual Lex!
In order to render the fat at low temperature (or at least quicker), what about grinding the fat instead of cutting it in smal pieces ?
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Thank's for the manual Lex!
In order to render the fat at low temperature (or at least quicker), what about grinding the fat instead of cutting it in smal pieces?
I do that often but then I have a large grinder so it doesn't take me long and again, I use a plate with large holes. Pure fat doesn't have much tissue to pull/push it through the grinder, so small grinders - especiall if you use a small plate - will just fill up with fat that turns into paste in the grinder and won't come through the front. In short, your milage may vary but certainly give it a try.
Lex
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I have put suet into a food processor and it turns to powder. Its very easy to mix into ground meat. but it makes the meal much more dry.
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Thanks for the .pdf files, Lex.
I grind jerky in a Green Life twin-gear juicer, and the result looks ~like the photo in your pdf, but the grinder you built looks interesting.
Hm. Wonder where I could acquire the parts? And why the 90° coupling?
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William,
The grinder is a Choprite-II, #32 bolt down hand grinder that is coupled to a Leeson 1 1/2 Horse Power right angle gear motor with a 10 to 1 reduction in speed. In this case the motor itself runs at about 1725 rpm and the output of the right angle gear box is about 172 rpm. Torque is about 500 ft lbs so this thing will chew up just about anything you throw into it, including fingers, hands, arms, whole chickens etc.
Everything is a stock off the shelf item with one exception. The shaft of the gear motor is a bit over an inch too low to mach up with the shaft of the grinder so the gear motor is mounted on a riser block of sufficient height so the two shafts align. I machined my riser out of mild steel but a hard wood such as maple would work just as well and be well within the capabilities of someone with a table saw and small drill press.
Link to Choprite crew down grinder page: http://www.chop-rite.com/Screw%20Down%20Meat%20Chopper.htm
The #32 grinder is about $325 if I remember correctly. The Bean Plate was ordered online from a sausage making supply company. Don't make the mistake of trying to use an imported grinder. They just won't hold up. I've shattered the blades, cracked the housings, and broken the auger shaft of the Porkette and some stainless steel job from china.
Link to Leeson right angle gear motors: http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/leeson_1phs_rt_angle.htm
This is the motor I used :
10:1 gear ratio; 175 rpm; 478 ftlbs torque; 1½ hp; Catalog #W8210147-120017; 145TC frame; 700 stall torque; 69 lbs. $706.16
I also purchased the optional mounting bracket and the spacer I made went between the mounting bracket and the gear box.
Finally you'll need a shaft coupling sleeve. The one I used is made by Dayton and available from Grainger Supply for about $20 It turned out that the drive shaft and the shaft of the grinder were about the same size so a straight through sleeve worked perfectly. The set screw on the gear motor side of the coupler is tightened down but on the side that connects to the grinder auger the set screw is screwed in about 1/2 way to meet up with a "flat and notch". This way the grinder auger just pushes in to the coupling sleeve and twist locks in place. To remove the auger for cleaning you just turn the auger counter clockwise and it will unlock and pull straight out.
EVerything can be mounted on a wooden cutting board. I encased my cutting board in a stainless steel sheet metal box since it was going to be used in a commercial environment for grinding dog food. This made it very easy to clean A later version I mounted on a 1" thick HDPE cutting board mounted on a 3/8" aluminum plate and this turned out beautifully as well.
As you can see this is a rather expensive proposition, however it is built like a tank and should last several lifetimes. For about $1200 you will have a grinder that works better than a $5000 Hobart or Barkel.
For a home grinder I'd recommend a #22 bolt down grinder and a 1 hp motor. This would bring the cost down to about $1000 and would do pretty much everything you'd ever want.
Lex
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What do the "cracklings" consist of? Why eat them as a separate snack? Can you not grind them and mix them with the dried meat powder for the pemmican?
I made a small amount of pemmican using lard, as I had no suet available at the moment, and the cracklings taste disgusting (have not tried the pemmican yet). I wonder if the suet cracklings are any better.
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What do the "cracklings" consist of? Why eat them as a separate snack? Can you not grind them and mix them with the dried meat powder for the pemmican?
Cracklings are the brown pieces of fat tissue after the liquid fat has been released from them. Bacon that has been fried "crisp" is a form of cracklings.
I've never added the cracklings to my pemmican, and have always eaten them separately with a little salt. Haven't eaten them for a while since I went mostly raw, but used to love them.
Pork fat doesn't seem to work as well as beef or bison fat for making pemmican, but can be used I suppose. It is very soft and pasty, it doesn't store as well, and the fatty acid profile is significantly different from red meat fat which might affect its overall nutritional value if the pemmican were to be used as your sole food for an extended period of time.
Lex
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Well I made 2 kg of pemmican on the weekend, it went well, I already had 1kg of kangaroo jerky (kangaroo is great because it's lean, cheap and is tasty) It took me about 6 hours to render the 1kg of suet at 212F. It was a bit of fun but took a while and I made mess in fact I still have to clean up when I get back from my trip away. I planned to only eat pemmican on the trip but still had some meat mix which I took with me.
Had my first actual meal of only pemmican yesterday and went down ok. I ate alot probably more than if I ate meat mix in terms of calories. It was tasty but crumbled to bits. Thanks lex for the jerky maker and pemmican intructions.
I will be making many more batches in the future and has allowed me to go camping and plan trips to remote areas that are just not possible raw paleo.
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delfuego has found a way to render fat at <104°F.
Posted in the pemmican thread here:
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=81&page=44
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delfuego has found a way to render fat at <104°F.
William,
Delfuego and I have corresponded on this topic and I've been following the thread closely. His oven temperature is actually slightly above 104°F and he's measuring the internal temperature of the fat with a meat thermometer. The the moisture doesn't boil off at such a low temperature so he has to remove the majority of it manually. It is not clear that enough moisture is removed from the liquid fat to allow for the exceptional room temperature keeping qualities that pemmican is famous for. If you are going to eat it right away then this may not be a problem, however, if you are looking for emergency rations that can be stored for long periods without refrigeration or freezing, then the point is critical. An everyday example of this is butter. It is mostly fat, but contains substantial water which over time causes the butter to go rancid and it must be kept refrigerated. To keep butter for long periods unrefrigerated, you must melt the butter and boil off the water and remove the milk solids (small amounts of protein and lactose). This has been done in the Middle Eastern countries for centruies and the end result is called Ghee. Like rendered animial fat it can be kept for long periods and requires no refrigeration.
The yield is not clear. Rendering fat above 200°F provides about 7 lbs of rendered fat for every 10 lbs of raw fat. At very low temperatures much of the fat may remain trapped in the cellular structure and the yield may only be 1/2 or 1/3 of normal. The saturated fat requires a temperature above 120°F to melt so this may not be released at all, thus altering the fatty acid profile of the completed pemmican. In other words it may be nutritionally deficient and not provide everything needed for a human to remain healthy.
The process takes many hours, (days actually), and though you don't have to watch it closely, you do have to skim the water off once or twice a day. The temperature is also perfect for culturing bacteria and mold. Unlike jerky where the moisture is driven off and the material becomes drier inhibiting the growth of critters, the fat actually traps nutrient rich water under it, and then keeps it nice and toasty for the critters to grow and multiply. In effect he's created a very nice incubator in his kitchen.
Delfuego hopes to keep the enzymes intact by keeping the temperature low. I have no idea if this is good or bad. Part of pemmican's amazing keeping qualities may rely on the destruction of the enzymes in the fat during the rendering process - we just do not know. Again, this may be a critical factor if pemmican is to be used as an emergency food. The problem is, we have no way of measuring the presence of enzymes so there is no way to know if the goal has been accomplished or even if there are significant enzymes to save in the first place.
Delfuego's "new" method introduces no fundamental change in process or technology. The process is exactly the same one that's been used for hundreds of years, with the single exception of lowering the fat rendering temperature. Unlike freeze drying which is very high tech and only been available in the last 50 to 75 years, just lowering the heat to render fat would have been available to the North American Natives who invented this stuff in the first place. From what research I've done, a heat level above the boiling point of water was always used. If the higher rendering temperature did not provide some advantage, then why didn't the process evolve to a low temperature model over the centuries? There must be a good reason, as lower temperatures take far less fuel and attention to maintain than higher temperatures.
Traditional pemmican has stood the test of time over many many centuries. I'm hopeful that Delfuego achieves what he's after, however, right now there are many unanswered questions.
Lex
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Lex,
I agree with everything you wrote.
I hope the experiment gives useful results without harm.
Just a thought - life, including enzyme function, is electrical:
Without water, dried meat has less electrical activity, and the enzymes might go dormant, so it keeps well for a while even without fat.
Fat is a good insulator - note the composition of myelin sheath which insulates nerves including brain tissue - so enzyme activity in or from rendered fat (if any) is problematical.
It might even make no difference at what temperature the fat is rendered.
Puzzling is delfuego's removing water from the top. Fat floats, so why is the water on top?
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Puzzling is delfuego's removing water from the top. Fat floats, so why is the water on top?
Yes, water is denser than fat in the liquid state. If his fat is still solid at this lower temp, I still can't see how the water would rise to the top of the fat, as it is liquid water, right? Makes no sense to me, but then, I am not on the other forum, and maybe he has some different thing going on.
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Puzzling is delfuego's removing water from the top. Fat floats, so why is the water on top?
One should never let something as inconsequential as a simple law of physics get in the way of one's zealous pursuit of the Holy Grail.
If you'll notice, most of Delfuego's posts are quite short. I don't think he worries about absolute accuracy or clarity - rather just communicating the basic idea. He has been asked several times to give detailed instructions on how he makes his pemmican. I have yet to find a detailed post in this regard - just bits and pieces spread across many posts, and certainly nothing of clarity.
I expect we'll learn more as time goes on. In the mean time, I'll continue to make my pemmican the tried and true old fashioned way.
Lex
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I think pemmican seems a little more culturally acceptable because I can buy beef jerky down at my local 24 hour BP service station. It tastes like cooked food and I realise the power of the mind in feeling well and maybe this can explain 'Delfuego's' wife's recovery.
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I like the flat cakes best. The surface area allows for easy breaking. Just a thought as people make pemmican, they may want to consider the shape they wish, depending on their circumstances and other preferences.
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Dear god, pemmican looks like some disgusting version of spam.
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Dear god, pemmican looks like some disgusting version of spam.
And it tastes like candle wax and sawdust.....Yum! Life just doesn't get any better than this!
Lex
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And it tastes like candle wax and sawdust.....Yum! Life just doesn't get any better than this!
ROFLMAO! I have never eaten candle wax, but it does have a waxy mouth feel. Then again, so do some chocolates. The meat tastes like unseasoned jerky to me. I do sheepishly admit to adding seasoning to your pemmican, Lex, but that's just because it is where I am at with things. My kids love it, if that counts for anything.
I think it's a good introductory raw food for people. Only half raw, but still. Rawpaleo.com should post the manual, imo, if only for the fact that it will bring inquiring minds. The fact that it's now linked on Charles' increasingly, very popular forum, means that the traditionaltx.us site will be getting increased traffic. These zero carb types would be perfect to hear a raw message. I do hope the rawpaleodiet.com site can benefit from this sort of exposure, as I am only a local site for Texans, basically. In any case, I do agree that it is more mainstream than other raf.
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I am so new to pemmican but I was wondering couldn't one just use this method to make pemmican:
Traditionally pemmican was prepared from the lean meat of large game such as buffalo, elk or deer. The meat was cut in thin slices and dried over a slow fire, or in the hot sun until it was hard and brittle. Then it was pounded into very small pieces, almost powder-like in consistency, using stones. The pounded meat was mixed with melted fat with a ratio of approximately 50% pounded meat and 50% melted fat. In some cases, dried fruits such as saskatoon berries, cranberries, blueberries, or choke cherries were pounded into powder and then added to the meat/fat mixture. The resulting mixture was then packed into "green" rawhide pouches for storage.
I found this on wikipedia but it seems simple and it lists this method as the traditional method so... I guess you can melt the fat in the sun also. I just really dislike having to use machines. I like them to be an option not the only way.
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I am so new to pemmican but I was wondering couldn't one just use this method to make pemmican: I found this on wikipedia but it seems simple and it lists this method as the traditional method so... I guess you can melt the fat in the sun also. I just really dislike having to use machines. I like them to be an option not the only way.
Wikipedia is corrupt.
For instance, I read the source article which was about the Hudon's Bay Co. buying pemmican from Indians at Rocky Mountain House, IIRC that was in what is now Alberta, where the temperature never got over 100°F, but the climate is relatively dry and windy, so the meat would dry just as it does in Lex Rooker's jerky box.
No fire!
And also, fat does not melt in the sun. It is rendered, and fire is necessary because the heat must be high enough to drive off the water; otherwise the pemmican goes moldy.
I bake in a 225 oven for >=8 hours.
Lex's pemmican manifesto is the best source for making it, except I think he tolerates too high a temperature.
I think that temperatures over 104°F are not good, so I use a 60W bulb instead of 100W, and have seen the temp. vary from 82°F to 102°F.
This on my kitchen floor, which is cool.
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I'm getting mine down to a fine art and have experimented with 60-100w globes as well as covering the air hole at the top. I need a high temp (approaching 40 Celsius) because I found you really need to get a good bit of drying quick or it will go off (and cutting the jerky fine takes a lot of time)
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Lex's pemmican manifesto is the best source for making it, except I think he tolerates too high a temperature.
To high a temperature for what - rendering the fat or drying the meat or both?
One thing to remember when drying the meat is that you will have significant evaporative cooling - especially for the first 24 hours. This drops what would be a temperature of 115 deg into the high 80s or low 90s. As the meat dries the temperature will slowly rise util it reaches its highest temperature at the end of the cycle and all the moisture is gone.
Lex
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To high a temperature for what - rendering the fat or drying the meat or both?
One thing to remember when drying the meat is that you will have significant evaporative cooling - especially for the first 24 hours. This drops what would be a temperature of 115 deg into the high 80s or low 90s. As the meat dries the temperature will slowly rise until it reaches its highest temperature at the end of the cycle and all the moisture is gone.
Lex
Just the meat - I've read somewhere that enzyme destruction begins at temps over 104, this supported by the stories of people who have fever, and doctors do extremes to keep temps below that.
Most might not notice, but those of us who require healing could.
I don't care how long the meat takes to dry, and don't mind at if it smells a bit high during the drying - can't taste any difference in the pemmican anyway.
Andrew, do you live in a high humidity area? I've read that if so, there should be a temperature difference of 5° (I don't know if this is C or F) to make drying possible, and maybe some wind as well.
I might experiment with the wind, as I have a fan intended for a computer power supply.
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my butcher accidentally gave me some grainfed suet. i dont want to eat it raw, but was wondering if i should render it for pemmican. is this even worth it? is rendered grass fed fat much better than rendered grain fed fat or does the heating destroy the nutrients that are in the grass fed fat. im just trying to figure out what i should do with the grainfed suet. any other ideas?
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I'd suggest feeding it to your pets or simply disposing of it Yon.
The critical difference between the grass-fed and grain-fed fats, as far as I'm aware, is the Omega 3 / Omega 6 ratio. This ratio itself isn't affected by the rendering process but the fats are, of course, damaged. Personally, I'm not keen to eat any heated fragile Omega fats but if I did I would certainly ensure that, at least, the 3-6 ratio was the preferred 4:1 or closer of grass-fed animals.
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Well, either throw it away or render it and supplement with some raw, fermented cod liver oil(Blue Ice has such a product).
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hey so im planning on traveling with some pemmican pretty soon. i was curious, how do you transport it by plane? is it cool to keep it in my carry-on bag or would i have to check it? just wondering if they'd let me carry it on... any suggestions or experience?
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I just travelled with some a couple days ago in my carry-on and it went through unquestioned. However, I travelled from a very small airport that is sometimes more lenient. I had the pemmican sort of flat in a ziplock bag and I was prepared to say that it was a fruit roll up or cereal bar, but I never had to say anything. Good luck!
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My brother recently took 5kg of pemmican/hashish on a plane, when he tried to board they told him there was a security problem with his bag and to stand aside. He went down to security and they told him no problem he could board. After the short flight and on coming into landing at the (very small) airport the place was full of police. Nothing happened but he thinks his suspicously wrapped pemmican may have got some attention.
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I took some and also jerky to St. Kitts and didn't have any problems.
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cool, so it seems like it shouldn't be a problem. another question though: i feel pretty confident that i'll be able to get good quality raw meat where im going, but it might be hard finding enough fat. would it be feasible to just bring rendered suet along as my source of fat? would that have the same keeping qualities as pemmican or would it spoil? this would be preferable for me to do as i have loads of free suet from my butcher but getting enough lean meat to make an equal amount of jerky is expensive.
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Just a couple weeks ago I took a 1 lb ribeye through security. I could see the wrinkles in their eyes as it was going through the scanner, so I told em it was a steak, to which they laughed, told me about someone who brought a roast through recently, and I was on my merry. Then I ate it during my layover. I've found it's actually pretty easy to get away with it right out in public and here's how/why:
Eat it wrapped up in wax paper like maybe it was a burger. Stay leaned over w/ elbows on knees, hands dropped, one holding the steak, the other covering the opening. Most of the time is spent chewing anyways. People see that your eating, but almost no one actually takes the time (or cares) to examine what you're eating. It's one of those, you see what you want to see - since eating a raw steak is so far outside the box, it's not anything anyone really would expect to see; and thus, they don't.
And if anyone did and ask me about it, well there's another person who learns for the first time about RPD... lol, or I've just met one of you guys.
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another question though: i feel pretty confident that i'll be able to get good quality raw meat where im going, but it might be hard finding enough fat. would it be feasible to just bring rendered suet along as my source of fat? would that have the same keeping qualities as pemmican or would it spoil? this would be preferable for me to do as i have loads of free suet from my butcher but getting enough lean meat to make an equal amount of jerky is expensive.
i'm not sure why you want to render it first, but it should keep just fine forever so long as you have either separated completely the water or rendered at a high enough temp to boil off the water. any remaining water will allow for mold growth.
are you traveling with it? i've never rendered suet, so i'm not sure the consistency, but anything creamy or gel-like might not be allowed. just be sure it is very solid upon going through security would be my advise.
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i'm not sure why you want to render it
so it will keep longer. my trip will probably be a month or so long. you can't really just keep suet unrefrigerated for that long
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That would be a good idea. You could even break it up into bite size pieces after it hardens and eat those with your lean meat the way you would eat fresh suet. I would keep the cracklins too and mix it all together.
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That would be a good idea. You could even break it up into bite size pieces after it hardens and eat those with your lean meat the way you would eat fresh suet. I would keep the cracklins too and mix it all together.
Tallow/rendered suet keeps for years at room temperature, but the cracklins/scruncheons go bad in a few days.
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awesome. so i think im gonna try this out when i go on my trip. i'll make some pemmican with the beef jerky that i already have and use the rest of the suet to just make tallow. as long as the tallow holds up, i think i should be fine. oh, im also gonna dehydrate some organs and mix that in with the pemmican i make. we'll see how that goes.
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I am going to be making some pemmican for shits and giggles.. I was wondering if there was a reason you couldnt grind the meat and spread it on something mesh-y to dry out? I would imagine that it would be easier to powder this way but thought I would ask first.
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Neone,
You can grind the meat first if you like but I wouldn't try to use ground meat from the market. Way to much fat which will go rancid in a very short time. Just choose very lean meat like eye of round, cut off all the fat and then grind that. This way you will be sure to have very little fat.
Also, If you are going to make pemmican from the meat then don't season it at all. Just dehydrate it plain without salt, pepper, or other seasoning. You can always add this to the pemmican when you make it. What tastes good in jerky will be way to salty in pemmican. You can take a look at my pemmican manual for instructions.
http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf
Lex