"When Man ceases to worship God he does not worship nothing but worships everything". G K Chesterton.
Title: Re: Gk Chesterton quotation backed up
Post by: Brad462 on October 31, 2014, 07:55:36 am
The great thing about God is that he doesn't demand worship. And I find that quote out of place because athiests usually don't believe in aliens or anything paranormal.
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Post by: TylerDurden on October 31, 2014, 05:04:33 pm
I disagree. I have come across plenty of atheists who swore that von Daeniken's absurd theories were factual. Besides, some atheists believe in the flying spaghetti monster!
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Post by: JFetter on October 31, 2014, 09:32:38 pm
I think the meaning of the quote is not that athiests will necessarily believe in aliens etc , but that when somebody doesn't believe in God, they will tend to put their "faith" in other things and treat them as a religion.
This could be paranormal life, or the zeal many people have believing man-made global warming or for that matter many political/activist ideas in general. The void that religion would fill often gets replaced by other beliefs and ideas. "Health" could be someone's substitute religion.
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Post by: Brad462 on November 01, 2014, 04:22:38 am
Believing in the flying spaghetti monster is more rational than being 100% convinced that there is no God I suppose. Most athiests bore me to tears.
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Post by: PaleoPhil on November 01, 2014, 05:55:57 am
I find that quote out of place because athiests usually don't believe in aliens or anything paranormal.
True, I don't believe in aliens or the paranormal. That quote is the propaganda of theocons like Chesterton and his worshippers, though at least Chesterton was smarter than most of today's theoconmen and neoconmen.
Believing in the flying spaghetti monster is more rational than being 100% convinced that there is no God I suppose. Most athiests bore me to tears.
FYI: Tyler is an atheist (meaning nonbeliever), as am I. OK, maybe we are a bit boring. LOL
However, I'm not one who sees no value in religion. Prof. Dawkins' advice to simply throw away something that has been a central component of culture for thousands of years, without first trying to understand what role it plays, and without trying to come up with a better alternative, makes little sense to me. At least Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris have tried to come up with an alternative.
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Post by: Brad462 on November 01, 2014, 06:13:04 am
It is ok to be boring, I forgive you. (god might not though.) :)
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Post by: PaleoPhil on November 01, 2014, 06:22:12 am
If this one called God exists, then I will give him my friendly greetings. Surely he will not want to kill and torture me just because I did not know of him?
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Post by: Brad462 on November 01, 2014, 06:34:29 am
"Surely he will not want to kill and torture me just because I did not know of him?" God won't do that, no. Some Christians do love to judge and condemn people to hell though.
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Post by: eveheart on November 01, 2014, 08:59:49 am
Hahaha! I finally read that article, and I was struck with the fact that the poll ("Do you believe in ghosts, aliens, angels, god, and/or UFOs?") was conducted at the Ripley's Believe It or Not! London amusement attraction. Just pointing it out because I think people at any amusement park do not represent an unbiased sample of people in any country in the world.
JMO. But seriously, I know plenty of atheists who don't worship amusement attractions
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Post by: TylerDurden on November 01, 2014, 10:21:03 am
True, I don't believe in aliens or the paranormal. FYI: Tyler is an atheist (meaning nonbeliever), as am I. OK, maybe we are a bit boring. LOL
I don’t like religions (except Buddhism which is not bad: my former-wife and my son state they are Buddhists; I deeply respect their choice and I also respect Christians). I’ve been convinced that Christianity is wrong since I was 16. This doesn’t necessarily means I’m atheist as you can be spiritualist or pantheist like Kant, Spinoza, Leibniz, Descartes and most great philosophers. Still, I would like a clear definitions of what is meant by “God”, since everyone seems to attach a different meaning to that word! So I don’t know what is God and if it exists or not; it depends on the definition.
I don’t believe in aliens, but after studying the UFO reports during several decades and studying cosmology a bit, I think there’s a very strong probability that some UFO reports are factual and that some UFOs have an intelligent extraterrestrial origin and behavior. It’s not a belief, but a rational analysis of the facts reported.
I don’t believe in paranormal either: I’m totally and rationally convinced that some paranormal phenomenon are real and that premonition and telepathy are explainable by today’s physics. I also documented myself thoroughly on that matter with serious scientific publications and reports on it. But what is most convincing to me are my personal experiences, some of which were deeply involving and extremely impressive, my premonitions being proved right afterwards, against all odds.
I just had a formidable experience no latter than yesterday evening, which I intend to report in a comprehensive post here, hopefully today — when I’m sure my memory and my brainpower are completely back to normal!
Quote
However, I'm not one who sees no value in religion. Prof. Dawkins' advice to simply throw away something that has been a central component of culture for thousands of years, without first trying to understand what role it plays, and without trying to come up with a better alternative, makes little sense to me.
Yes, I agree. Rationality joined by a pantheist or spiritualist philosophy are suitable alternatives.
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Post by: eveheart on November 01, 2014, 06:56:32 pm
...Still, I would like a clear definitions of what is meant by “God”, since everyone seems to attach a different meaning to that word! So I don’t know what is God and if it exists or not; it depends on the definition.
By my way of thinking, once people start agreeing on a definition for God, their ability to agree indicates that they have found the wrong definition. By extension, that is what makes many organized religions "wrong" when they insist that everybody agrees on one, dogmatic definition.
I think God must be sought, and found by each individual, therefore cannot be defined. Some religions and spiritual groups provide a framework for this individual process, many do not.
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Post by: Iguana on November 01, 2014, 08:58:30 pm
Fine post, Eve! I didn’t think about that before, but I agree.
By writing that I’m dogmatic, you are one of the few members who disgusted me of this forum …. I considered it as an insult because I hate dogmas. No rancor, anyway, and I’m fully back now, glad of no longer being a global moderator! :)
Title: Re: Gk Chesterton quotation backed up
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 01, 2014, 09:16:46 pm
This doesn’t necessarily means I’m atheist as you can be spiritualist or pantheist like Kant, Spinoza, Leibniz, Descartes and most great philosophers.
Understandable, given that the term "atheist" is controversial and often misunderstood. Sam Harris prefers to not use it and instead use no label at all for himself (though others of course continue to label him as such). Unfortunately, if you call yourself a spiritualist or pantheist, someone is equally likely to misunderstand you, if not even more. They may assume that you're into seances, fortune tellers, crystals and other such New Age gunk. Either way you are left having to explain with more detail.
Maybe the fact that religions make little logical sense is a key positive feature? Maybe it improves group cohesion, community and feelings of acceptance and belonging when people join together in beliefs that obviously make little or no rational sense?
IIRC, Hitchens and Harris said that they became more active in their fight against religion due to 911 and other Islamist terrorism and extremism, yet I haven't seen any actual effect from their efforts on reducing or rolling back Islamist terrorism or extremism. If everyone in the West abandoned religion, it seems to me that it would actually be a sort of unilateral disarmament and make the job of the Islamists easier, rather than harder. For atheism to help, we would need the Islamists to become atheists, not Christians, Jews and Hindus.
This rabbi argued along the same lines:
"you cannot expect the foundations of western civilisation to crumble and leave the rest of the building intact. That is what the greatest of all atheists, Nietzsche, understood with terrifying clarity and what his -latter-day successors fail to grasp at all." http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8932301/atheism-has-failed-only-religion-can-fight-the-barbarians/ (http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8932301/atheism-has-failed-only-religion-can-fight-the-barbarians/)
I doubt that western civilization would totally crumble without religion, yet I don't see the most secular nations like the Scandinavian countries as being enthusiastic combatants against ISIS and Islamism. Instead, it is religious peoples like Kurds, Shiites and Christians who are most fervently fighting ISIS (the fact that many of them are under direct threat also helps motivate them, of course). Secularists would probably argue that the wars would dissipate and disappear if Westerners all became more secular, but that seems naively overoptimistic to me.
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Post by: Iguana on November 01, 2014, 11:03:31 pm
Quote from: PaleoPhil
Sam Harris prefers to not use it and instead use no label at all for himself (though others of course continue to label him as such). Unfortunately, if you call yourself a spiritualist or pantheist, someone is equally likely to misunderstand you, if not even more. They may assume that you're into seances, fortune tellers, crystals and other such New Age gunk. Either way you are left having to explain with more detail.
Very true and that's one of the reasons why I don't attach any label to myself, the other reason being that my ideas are only provisional, not a part of me and I wanna feel free to change them when I stumble upon new facts or new knowledge. I wrote " you can be spiritualist or pantheist", not that I specifically and immutably see myself as one.
I also generally agree on the excellent other points in your above post.
PS: I still have to write my report on the above mentioned yesterday's experience. I don't know if I'll find the will to do it today because it has to be a long text with several photos.