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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: a_real_man on August 04, 2017, 05:11:05 am

Title: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: a_real_man on August 04, 2017, 05:11:05 am
Does anyone know the science behind tooth decay and tooth yellowing? I'm curious to know:

1. What is the chemical/mechanical process that causes teeth to develop cavities? Is it something that bacteria are releasing when digesting certain foods which erodes the tooth? If so, which foods? Or is it something else?

2. same question concerning yellowing of teeth, which seems to be an independent process.

3. how to battle tooth decay and tooth yellowing the paleo way? Avoid certain foods, eat more of others, brush with some specific substance, don't brush with other specific substances...?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on August 04, 2017, 11:48:54 am
The acid from bacteria is what causes teeth to rot. Once tarter starts to form the bacteria underneath it are free to produce all the acid they want because they are protected.

for my teeth I use a 50% saturated solution of borax and water. I just put as much borax as will dissolve leaving some on the bottom in a huge bottle, fill my waterpick up half way with it and fill it the rest of the way with warm water. Sometimes I brush my teeth with clay.

Tooth decay has a lot to do with diet.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: TylerDurden on August 04, 2017, 02:07:29 pm
I rarely bother to brush my teeth and my teeth are now very hard and set into their sockets. Prior to going rawpalaeo, they were so loose they were almost on the verge of falling off, so that I was forced to eat very soft foods around that time, or lose my teeth. I do use chemical toothpaste and just  swill it around in my mouth, but usually only prior to some important social engagement.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on August 04, 2017, 02:47:58 pm
My teeth feel much better since going raw but sometimes my gums still get sore when I eat a lot of jerky. How long did it take for your teeth to tighten up after going raw?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: TylerDurden on August 04, 2017, 03:06:55 pm
My teeth feel much better since going raw but sometimes my gums still get sore when I eat a lot of jerky. How long did it take for your teeth to tighten up after going raw?
My teeth became rock-hard 4 months after cutting out all raw dairy from my RVAF diet.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: Eric on August 04, 2017, 06:40:54 pm
Anyone have ideas for dissolving tartar and plaque?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: Iguana on August 04, 2017, 08:51:24 pm
Pages 178-179 of INSTINCTOTHERAPY - Instinctive Raw Paleolithic Nutrition by GCB (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/who-has-read-gc-burger's-first-book/msg135620/#msg135620) which I can still send on pdf to interested members who ask me and provide me their e-mail address.

Quote
I always thought that tooth decay was due to the onslaught of germs.
o Apparently, things are a bit more complex than that. Some forty different kinds of bacteria cleave to tooth surfaces as a highly stable sticky layer that consists of a binding substance, known as intergerminal matrix, i.e. dental plaque.
_So, those bacteria attack our enamel, don’t they?
o That was the initial thinking. Unfortunately, although dental plaque is always there (it even stands up to brushing and toothpastes), it turns out that sometimes holes hollow out and sometimes don’t. It’s anybody’s guess why.
_I suppose you have some idea.
o Doctors overlook the presence of abnormal molecules in body tissues, which is why it makes sense to investigate that field.
For one thing, why is it that tooth surface is always covered by germs: is it unrelenting effort by the germ world to destroy our teeth and gums? Nature lying in wait for the slightest deficiency of ours to strike us off the biosphere, that is well in line with Pasteur’s theory!
_Goodness, you’ve got your teeth into Pasteur!
o Oh no! How could I not have a soft spot for him since he discovered germs: on instinctotherapy, germs are popular.
_Sounds as clear as dishwater.
o If dental plaque is a constant factor, isn’t that a good reason for thinking that the body needs it for some specific purpose, not to ruin our teeth but to protect them from corrosive molecules contributed by foods?
_What then, is tooth decay due to?
o Teeth are living structures, fed by the blood that flows through root canals (nerve and vessels). However, there are no vessels in the dentin tubules, which is the white substance that forms the basis of the tooth. The nutrient molecules percolate from the center outwards.
Now, suppose the blood is ferrying partly metabolized abnormal molecules, for instance Maillard’s molecules from food or fragments of partly digested protein. Even should the amount of those alien molecules remain very low, in time they will fix into the dentin, rather like dirt in a filter. They will build up in pet areas where it is trickiest for them to get to, and possibly all the way into the enamel (which incorporates a number of complex organic molecules they will presumably couple with).
_I understand your idea. The bacteria from dental plaque could then attack the molecules deposited in the tooth, and mistake them for the molecules to be cleared that originate from the outside.
o Yes, that’s the idea I’m putting forward. Tooth decay may be considered an auto-immune disease, in the broad sense of the term. The bacteria normally used by our immune system to destroy the dangerous molecules present in our oral cavity would attack our own dental tissues congested with similar molecules brought by the blood following our dietary mistakes.
In usual auto-immune diseases, white blood cells turn against one’s own cells. In this particular case, the actual bacteria are deflected from their normal function by the presence of abnormal molecules in the dentin.
_I always thought that our immune system aimed at destroying germs, but it sounds as though you are saying that it uses them.
o Sorry, I was forgetting. We haven’t yet touched on that subject.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on August 05, 2017, 12:39:31 am
Anyone have ideas for dissolving tartar and plaque?

As someone who had a lot of plaque and doesn't I wish I could remember what specifically stopped it from forming. It was right around the time I started taking vitamin K but I've stopped taking it a long time ago and plaque hasn't returned. I took the menatetrenone 15000 mcg huge dose tablets if that's any help! I bought a dental pick off ebay and I used to pull tons of tartar off but only find a very small piece every year or so. Dental plaque is very serious. Plaque on your teeth is a sign of plaque in your arteries! Vitamin d works in conjunction with vitamin K. I read that It's ok to take k without d but not the other way around. Together they remove calcium from where it doesn't belong and deposit it where it does. Sunshine and cod liver oil are the best sources of vitamin D. Now that I think about it I only recently stopped taking cod liver oil and stopped the K quite some time before that. Maybe I still have tons of it stored up in my body. I honestly don't know. Could even be totally unrelated.

My teeth used to have yellow and brown stains too. I suspected it was from iodine or coffee. Stopped taking both (coffee only recently). The borax brightened them up pretty well. I read it's very bad for you but I think that's all bunk. Best I could tell it was because boron is supposed to be toxic. News flash it's not! (Yeah anything is toxic if you take to much of it.) Boron is deficient in over 90% of us and is needed to build strong bones and teeth. You wont get too much from brushing your teeth with it. It's a hundred times less toxic than fluoride and they put that in every single brand of tooth paste I've ever seen. I swear what's wrong with the people in charge these days?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on August 05, 2017, 12:46:49 am
Oh yeah. I remember when I first started taking vitamin K how smooth it made my teeth feel. Be sure and get 15mg tablets or capsules if you want to give it a try. The 200mcg ones they sell do nothing.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on August 05, 2017, 12:58:33 am
Was thinking again. ( Could become dangerous.) I stopped taking vitamin K (and all supplements) about the time I started taking raw organ meats (nearly two years ago). Maybe that could have something to do with tartar not reoccurring?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: a_real_man on August 05, 2017, 04:15:16 am
Pages 178-179 of INSTINCTOTHERAPY - Instinctive Raw Paleolithic Nutrition by GCB (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/who-has-read-gc-burger's-first-book/msg135620/#msg135620) which I can still send on pdf to interested members who ask me and provide me their e-mail address.

Hot dang. That's the kind of detail I'm looking for. PM'ed - please do send. I find it fascinating how little we understand the basic things in life.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: Gatsuri on November 26, 2018, 01:38:32 am
Does anyone know the science behind tooth decay and tooth yellowing? I'm curious to know:

1. What is the chemical/mechanical process that causes teeth to develop cavities? Is it something that bacteria are releasing when digesting certain foods which erodes the tooth? If so, which foods? Or is it something else?

2. same question concerning yellowing of teeth, which seems to be an independent process.

3. how to battle tooth decay and tooth yellowing the paleo way? Avoid certain foods, eat more of others, brush with some specific substance, don't brush with other specific substances...?


I don't think it's possible to get cavities if you are getting all the nutrients in, so I would say any teeth related issues are due to nutritional deficiencies... I just brush my teeth now with the brush no toothpaste.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: Gatsuri on January 22, 2019, 10:25:56 pm

I don't think it's possible to get cavities if you are getting all the nutrients in, so I would say any teeth related issues are due to nutritional deficiencies... I just brush my teeth now with the brush no toothpaste.

I have experimented multiple months brushing teeth without toothpaste, if the diet has enough nutrients no cavities are to be expected but the drawback to using no toothpaste is more tartar buildup. Which means more frequent dental visits to remove the tartar. So I would opt for flossing 1x a day and brushing 2x a day with a little bit (don't need much) of a low fluoride/ no fluoride toothpaste. The small amount of foaming of the toothpaste really helps break up that plaque. I also have found great benefits to oral health by using raw honey.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: norawnofun on January 23, 2019, 05:13:25 am
I read of some people which do not brush their teeth but just use floss, and it works very well for them. But they eat raw carnivore. And tartar can be removed by squishing coconut oil in the morning, that worked very well, at least for me. However, if tartar is building up I recommend first looking into your diet, rather than masking it away with coconut oil. Having tartar gives you at least a sign that something is going on, or that you are eating the wrong type of foods.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on January 23, 2019, 08:14:50 am
tartar is a hardened build-up of plaque which is a biofilm laden with mostly sugar and carb eating bacteria and their acidic excrement.   We each have a better or worse propensity for certain types of oral bacteria, and the ability to deal with them or not with our immune bodies.   A carnivore diet, truly devoid of carbs will off very little food for most plaque thus tartar-forming bacteria.  Saliva amounts and it's ph, stomach acids and enzymes also play a role in keeping the mouth clean.   Detox is low on the list.  Milk sugar, lactose can also support plaque-forming bacteria, as well as honey or any sugar or carb. 
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: PaganGoy on January 23, 2019, 09:57:13 am
@van
most of the things you are describing are detox.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: sabertooth on January 23, 2019, 10:13:21 am
I don't brush and have not brushed for years...even before paleo I had learned how to naturally clean my mouth out by swishing saliva in conjunction with the use of skillful tongue dexterity...haven't had any cavities since I was a teenager when I was foolishly brushing with flouride toothpaste daily.

Such natural forms of oral hygiene can be fairly effective in cleaning the teeth and keeping corrosive plaques from eating away the enamel, even for people who eat those decay promoting foods.

Ive taken notice that the teeth are alive, and not just dead bone used to pulverize and masticate foodstuff. Ive had weak spots in tooth enamel heal overtime. I went to a dentist when I was 16 and was told I had a small cavity that needed filling, it hurt sometimes but usually wasn't very bothersome, so I let it go...and quit going to the dentist for years. I had some pain from time to time around a couple of old fillings (from when I was a child)and was then seen by a dentist for a check up at age 25.... he said I had good teeth, a couple of weak spots but no active cavities.

 I noticed around the 2nd year of Raw paleo that the two molars with fillings, which would sometime hurt when cold or if I bit something too hard, had quit hurting altogether and were no longer sensitive to cold. Something interesting would happen on occasion, it would often occur after a short fast, or sometimes out of the blue, my teeth would get a gritty coating, I could feel on the tops of my molars, like sand paper, and the gum lines would become encrusted with a mineral plaque. I never brushed it off or tried to floss and would just continue to practice natural hygiene, sometimes chewing on connective tissue for a while... and eventually the mineral gritt layer would smooth away leaving my teeth feeling very clean and strong.

The roots of the teeth are alive and when awoken into action by vigorous chewing of raw flesh, they are stimulated to increase in their vitality, leading to the excreting of more dentin promoting growth factors that remineralise the teeth from the inside out, while the chewing of the flesh polishes the surface enamel.

Perhaps if not interfered with by constant brushing, and consuming of corrosive bacteria feeding foods, or chewing on harsh abrasive foods, the whole oral cavity can maintain itself quite well, as it undergoes the periodic cycles rejuvenation...much in the same way all the other bones in the body continue to repair themselves through the life cycle.   

 
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: PaganGoy on January 23, 2019, 10:28:18 am
@norawnofun
Not always, for example I used to get tartar whenever eating liver which is high in minerals that attract heavy metal detox.
You once said you got tartar from drinking mineral water, I think there are levels of detox when it comes to oral health.
Sugar is one cause, AGES and cooked food big ones etc etc
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on January 23, 2019, 11:07:12 am
@van
most of the things you are describing are detox.

I understand why You would say that about your experience.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: PaganGoy on January 23, 2019, 11:45:48 am
AV makes far more sense to me that bacteria is a progress or more like a beneficial reaction to detoxification rather than a cause of buildup, an attempt of defense against erosion of the teeth due to detox even.


On a side note I do not really get tartar on my diet.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on January 23, 2019, 02:14:17 pm
I get it, everything he says you believe.   But maybe you'll  dig a little deeper,,    there is nothing protective about acid producing plaque and the noxious bacteria that spawn into the gums and create pockets, destroy bone, and eventually cause tooth  loss, let alone decay/carries. 
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: sabertooth on January 24, 2019, 01:04:23 am
I dont think AV should be viewed as a tooth Guru?? Does anyone know if Rumors true about him having false teeth?? and to what extent was his oral health compromised by his own dietary practices??

Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: PaganGoy on January 24, 2019, 04:36:47 am
@sabertooth
He lost teeth after radiation then regained most of his oral health after consuming dairy
The same as me minus the radiation part.

@van
Whenever I used to get alot of placque and bad breath collection on the tongue etc it was ALWAYS after waking up from a long nap or in the morning in particular.
All those things you mention can be explained by general detox pretty easily, its not like I am exclusively talking about heavy metals or some crazy shit, its quite reasonable.

Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on January 24, 2019, 07:38:35 am
when you sleep or nap your saliva flow ( for many ) is reduced, hence the flushing of accumulating bacteria is reduced dramatically. And the alkaline potential to neutralize acidic bacterial excrement is diminished as well as remineralizing dentin.   Bacteria multiply on average every ten minutes, so you can do the math for several hours.   
    I really don't know what you mean by detox.  Eat a  handful of dates or sticky sugary raw fruit just before retiring for several months and see how healthy your gums and teeth will be then.   Sugar is sugar.  Some people just produce more healthy oral bacteria to counteract the proliference of unhealthy types, and also produce more flushing saliva to rinse away sugars before they can feed bacteria in the mouth.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: sabertooth on January 24, 2019, 10:18:43 am
Drinking any dairy whatsoever would cause me a generally funky mouth feeling. Even paleo friendly carbs like from honey would also cause castic mouth conditions. Somehow the proteins and sugars of certain foods alter the mucus membrane and quality of the salivary secretions, so even if you thoroughly clean your mouth before going to sleep, the corrosive bacterial feeding elements in the foods you consume, are being constantly secreted through your own bodily fluids.

Pure carnivory on the other hand doesn't seem to be an issue for me, as it seems the meat and raw fat based diet seems to promote clean non corrosive, healthy bacterial feeding secretions. I very often fall asleep right after eating with a fair amount of connective tissue still stuck in my teeth...sometimes I even fall asleep with a whole wade of connective tissue in my mouth, that I chew for gum...by morning whatever meat is left in between the teeth is usually dissolved enough to easily remove with a morning drink and swish. The mouth fermented meat is fairly fowl, and yet those meat bacterial do not seem to be corrosive to my tooth enamel...and perhaps such flesh loving bacteria act to protect the teeth from other more mineral corroding strains of microbes?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: PaganGoy on January 25, 2019, 02:29:38 pm
@van
Unhealthy bacteria/people producing different amounts of bacteria regardless of what they eat?
not really convincing.
If logically bacteria feeds on the enviornment based on the foods you eat then all bacteria would be necessary and beneficially specific to manage the stuff you just ate since they live off it.
Whether the particular bacteria is acidic would make sense to be dependant on the acidity of what you were eatingbut it's still considered detox.
Detoxing bacteria**
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on January 25, 2019, 02:55:51 pm
again, that's one of my criticisms of 'gurus' like AV, as he convinces his followers that they are polluted and hence can feed them advice ( at a cost when consulting ) as to how to purify themselves...  For each year you ate cooked..... And obviously, this is in the forefront of your brain.    that is why I tried to give you an example of eating RAW, that's RAW sticky sweet fruit just before bed for a couple of months and check out the health of your teeth and gums.   Where's the detox here?  It is simply sugars feeding sugar eating oral bacteria creating acidic excrement that will colonize under your gums, form pockets, and demineralize your teeth.    You'll probably argue that most people who try to live on fruit and lose their teeth were simply detoxing and when through detoxing ( for every year that they ate cooked.... ) they will grow new teeth when their bodies are purified. 
     So if you're 25, my guess,  AV will have you hooked with his detox formula for the next 24 years.

  I'm not interested in this topic anymore, and my guess is that you are tired of trying to spell it out for me.   Lets move on please.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: PaganGoy on January 25, 2019, 10:23:25 pm
Have you been actually reading through a single one of my comments?
That is not what I am saying at all!!!
Holy shit to think you can be so close minded you dont't even have to read the other persons replys when making a response!
Reread my last** comment I am specifically talking about what a person just ate I am agreeing with you that sugar causes placque and how but disagreeing with you on the nature of bacteria.***

Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on January 26, 2019, 12:58:18 am
You're not going to prove your point with insinuations.  I can read and did read your comment.  Let's move on.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: sabertooth on January 26, 2019, 01:01:59 pm
The Grand Detox Mythos has not been fully investigated from a detached and objective perspective?

The mainstream perspective is entirely dismissive of the idea that bodies build up chronic toxicity deep within the tissues, and that these toxicities manifest as infections or other degenerative conditions.

The perspective of AV claims that these accumulated toxins are at the root cause of disease and what is called bacterial overgrowth or infections, is actually natures way of purifying and detoxifying the body.

Neither side seems to fully grasp the depths of the situation, beyond these superficial dichotomies. There is evidence which would suggest that AV is correct about the nature of bacterial, yeast and viral phenomenon. There must be some biological necessity for even the so called pathogenic organism.  AVs views are an extension of Antoine Bechamps  "Law of the terrain". Bechamp observed that pathogenic organism could only proliferate in a pathogenic environment. AV realized that these so called pathogenic organisms actually are necessary components which work to dissolve toxic tissue, making room for rejuvenation and new growth. I have postulated even further that these pathogens are mercenaries of Gaia, that are necessary for catabolism of naturally accrued imbalances, while also stimulating the immune system in ways that alter genetic expression in order to forge Lamarckian adaptations.

When addressing symptoms of Detox on must ask, Exactly what am I detoxing from? Yeast, bacterial and viral outbreaks can be an indication of Detox, but a detox of what? Many people are toxic with heavy metals, pesticides, petrochemical pollutants, mineral imbalances; which could cause the kind of overgrowths that will rot teeth, blemish the skin, weaken the bone structure, inhibit digestion and energy production...

Though some of these conditions are difficult to avoid and are a tragic part of modern life... could it be that many people are also being polluted by their own food choices? and these chronic neverending detoxes are actually detox reactions from the food itself? Think in terms of "law of the terrain" the corrosive bacteria that cause tooth rot are being feed from the bodies own secretions, that are made up of corrosive bacterial feeding elements in the food that is consumed. If the bodies metabolic system isn't capable of fully breaking down and assimilating foods like Dairy, then the unmetabolized components become toxic to the tissues, and so corrosive bacteria are manifested in order to facilitate detox.

These toxic food metabolites are excreted in the bodily fluids...the saliva, mucus, skin lanolin...these toxic metabolites feed the overgrowths of AVs "solvent producing bacteria".... This kind of food detox manifest in the mouth as cavities, and on the skin as blemished...it also can congest the liver, fowl up the digestion,trigger allergies, suppress the immune system, stiffen and inflame the bones and joints, and derange the hormonal homeostasis.....

These ideas are a generalization that may not apply in all cases, perhaps for many people who are not already polluted by the man made toxins, digesting foods like milk and honey are not an issue......so for these pristine specimens there are not excessive undigested metabolites for the corrosive bacteria to feed on...but say if you are in anyway already somewhat toxic and compromised in your ability to assimilate certain foods, then those symptoms of "detox" may in reality be symptoms of chronic food induced toxicity.

People who are toxic to the point of not being able to properly assimilate, shouldn't obsess so much about the concept of detox, and instead focus on finding the cleanest and most nourishing foods that your body can best utilise, while eliminating the possible sources of the underling environmental toxicity.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: ProsPerryT on June 17, 2019, 10:42:43 am
@ sabertooth:  One of the best-stated and comprehensive summaries I've seen in a while.  Well stated, sir.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: ProsPerryT on June 17, 2019, 09:49:43 pm
My teeth became rock-hard 4 months after cutting out all raw dairy from my RVAF diet.

After cutting OUT all raw dairy?  I thought it was supposed to help make teeth strong.
I ask because I haven't had tooth decay issues for 15 years.  All of a sudden after adding raw dairy, raw meats, raw fish, etc to my diet, i have MUCH more sensitive teeth, receding gums, etc.  I was expecting the best cleaning of my life, and it went quick since I rarely have plaque build-up.  I was ready to go when the dentist came over to do the quick exam at the end and found 7 soft spots below my gumline, all on the bottom teeth.  Same areas that are dark color and sensitive.  He wants to drill'n'fill them all.  It was crushing to go from high expectations, to one of the worst dental changes even he's ever seen (i was there for a cleaning only 4 months previous.)

So I'm trying to figure out if this is:
   * just a stage of "healing" after switching to raw foods (I'm not 100% though as I still have to eat some carbs or I just can't function, which are green apples, nuts, nut butters, seeds, or even a small amount of cooked rice in the evening)?
   * or a side-effect of raw dairy (I get NO other bad reactions to dairy in my skin, GI, etc and I muscle-test strong for it every time)?
   * or I'm brushing TOO MUCH, and making things worse, especially with the electric toothbrush?
   * or just a physical manifestation of emotional issues, which some estimate to be as high as 80% of people's chronic health issues?  (I worry about my teeth now much of the day, every day, and losing them is one of my BIGGEST fears in life.  That certainly doesn't help anything...)
   * or some weird trace mineral deficiency from cutting out salt?
   * or my teeth really are just simply rotting out from the bottom up, and I'll have dentures within a decade (I'm 42)?

I gotta say that I'm not a fan of teeth these days.  So much maintenance, money, sensitivity, etc.  I think a Ferrari would be easier to deal with and certainly funner.  Ferrari's don't masticate very well though.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: TylerDurden on June 17, 2019, 11:27:10 pm
Read this article on how exactly  excess calcium from dairy can ruin bones and teeth:-

http://www.4.waisays.com/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

SSRIs which foul up serotonin levels in the brain and body also ruin the skeleton and teeth as serotonin not only is present in the brain as a regulating substance, but is also present in the gut and controls calcium levels in teeth and skeleton.

A 100% "raw" diet usually involves some raw carbs unless you go RZC. My own experience with RZC was that I also got weakened teeth therefrom(though, admittedly, I  may have overdone the amount of  raw-meat eaten per day, even if I maintained the right fat to protein ratios.

Try some high-quality(if you can, organic or , best of all, wild herbs and fruits/veg). Mercola's curcumin
https://products.mercola.com/curcumin-supplement/
is a good use against inflammation in the short-term, though abstaining from cooked foods is best for fighting off inflammation in the long-term. Obviously, try raw 100% grassfed meats/organ-meats, "high-meat"(eventually)

I understand your terror re teeth. I was once forced to have a filling implanted decades ago, and I am sure that the nerve below was destroyed. I also know several people who, in old age, have been forced to use removable dentures as they simply could not afford replacing their original teeth with decent, more permanent  replacements. So, I am terrified of dentists and am glad I have had no dental issues since.

Loosened teeth cannot, imo, be a sign of detox. You might consider a slow elimination diet and see what works. Also, raw foods have much higher water-content than cooked foods so can often be much easier to chew(eg:- liver/kidney). When I first did the raw-dairy-filled-RVAF diet, I would cut up my raw meats/organ-meats into small pieces so that I could just bolt them down without chewing and hurting my mouth. Once I cut out all raw dairy, my teeth became rock-hard after those 4 months, but initially I was even able to move them backwards and forwards.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on June 18, 2019, 02:41:33 am
dairy, besides being low in mg. is full of sugar or acids if fermented.  Always rinse out your mouth with salt water after consuming.  Get fuzzy floss and use daily.  Every week make a paste of baking soda and coat the fuzzy floss with it and floss under the gums.  Mild abrasive yes, but will clean very well.  Get soft bristle tooth brush and brush at a 45 degree angle gently, working the bristles under the gums.  Look up MMS and buy some to brush teeth with. 
    I've been close to zero carb for years now and carnivore for over a year, teeth better than ever.  There's no sugar for the bacteria that cause dental carries to feed on.  Keep your mouth clean throughout the day, especially your tongue. 
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on June 18, 2019, 11:16:50 pm
I agree with Tyler. Tooth and gum problems are not a sign of healing. You are doing something wrong. I use a water pick with a little peroxide to blast away chunks of raw meat and spices, and my gums and teeth are the healthiest I've ever had. Even had a filling pop out that was more than half my tooth from the water pick a year or two ago, and was surprised that it had become rock hard and pain free. Was sure I was going to require it to be pulled but it looks like I will be keeping it.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: TylerDurden on June 19, 2019, 04:07:06 am
Oh, and the WAPF recommends against nuts/nut-butters and seeds due to phytic acid content  as they claim that ruins the teeth.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: ProsPerryT on June 21, 2019, 11:12:19 am
Guys, I appreciate the tips.  I think I have to clear a few things up though.  This is long and you have better things to do than read it.  It was helpful for me to type.  As such:

   1)  I've been eating nuts for years.  Nothing new with those that should affect my teeth like this suddenly.  In fact, I used to eat many more before adding all the additional raw meat and dairy foods in recent months.  And in the form of mamy sweet, sticky power-bars at a time.  I cut down on that big time.
   2)  I muscle-tested for hydrogen peroxide and my body said NO.
   3)  "dairy, besides being low in mg. is full of sugar or acids if fermented."  Acids I agree with, but testing the ph of the dairy, buttermilk, even kefir showed them to be a weak acid at consumption.  How much more acidic they get after they breakdown further, I don't know.  But, even so I don't think it could get that bad. (?)
   4)  "dairy, besides being low in mg. is full of sugar or acids if fermented."  Also along those lines, I doubt there are any sugars left in fermented dairy since thats what is fueling the fermentation and thus get consumed away in the process.  (Or maybe that's what you meant, just forgot the comma to separate thoughts.)
   5)  The link to the calcium webpage didn't convince me of much.  Unless I missed it, it doesn't differentiate between RAW and processed (pasteurized and/or homogenized) dairy.  I agree that processed are toxic.  But, I'm not convinced raw dairy has downfalls.  (Similar to how NO studies that I've ever seen compare eating cooked meat to raw meat. Thus, all those studies like "The China Study" and such touted by vegans are mostly worthless.  I digress.)
   6)  Moreover, the calcium webpage showed that dairy doesn't even have the most calcium compared to other foods.  I eat raw egg yolks, which have 4 times more (relatively speaking) which is probably why they are usually slow for me to digest.
   7)  You also referenced that webpage in regards to "excess calcium" which I could agree with... but what's "excess"?  I don't consume that much compared to other people, and it's mostly the FAT (cream, sour cream, butter) and cheese.  I dont' really drink that much MILK, and when I do it might be 16oz in a day at most.  Moreso it's buttermilk or kefir though, which are in smaller amounts.  I can't see this all beign some ridiculous amount of calcium that suddenly caused my teeth to decay in <4 months.
   8)  I basically do everything else mentioned (curcumin, raw organ meats, regular dental hygiene as described, etc), and had been doing it.  In fact, I have been eating far FEWER sticky nut-based carbs power bars and such than before.  Used to be 100g+ even.  But with the raw food I brought it down to 40-70 much of the time. That's WHY I thought I was going to have my best dental visit ever, and was devastated to get the worst.
   9)  Most importantly: I muscle-test all my foods.  The foods test good.  Dairy of all versions, nuts, nut butters, rice bars (Mediterra), green apples, even oranges about 75% of the time.  Musclke-testing trumps ANYTHING on any page, book, link, etc.  It's the body saying that it is OK, or even WANTS, a specific food/supplement/whatever at that precise moment in time.  I don't know what else to say on that.
  10)  My mom had bad teeth, so there might be genetic issues.
  11)  I'm sure I also have inherited nutritional deficiencies throughout the generations.  I know that I've never been physically tough in other regards throughout my entire life (always sick and runty as a kid growing up, extreme fatigue/pain as an adolescent through adulthood, hard-gainer with muscle and always underweight, etc.)  My mom was similar her whole life.  I don't know about the grandparents, other than my one grandfather used to open beer bottles with his teeth.  I sure didn't get those genetics.  Damn.
  12) Thus, I'm pursuing more expanded avenues (2nd dentist opinion next week, maybe more X-rays, muscle-testing specific questions to my body, aura-reading and/or dowsing by others in whatever means we find helpful, etc).

NOTE:  Just because I'm realtively new to RAW meat doesn't mean that somehow I'm new to health, or low-carb, or any of them.  I'm not other people.  I've been SUPER healthy for decades.  I eat out at restaurants 2-3 times per year, and that's always sushi.  I've been organic for years, buying from Amish farms, I'm free of chemicals, preservatives, etc.  In fact, I was FULL-keto (<20g carbs/day) a few years ago, for almost 2 years.  Unfortunately, I blew out my adrenals (or whatever you want to call it) from extreme exhaustion.  I ended up being off work (in bed) for 6 months.  I later learned that in times of extreme stress, some carbs can be helpful, or ever required, to process or bulid hormones/neurotransmitters, etc.  Aajonus talks about that even.  So, I started eating them in the evenings and immediately felt much better, calmer, and started sleeping better too.  I can't forsee ever going back to full-keto.  But my <70g of carbs per day is pretty damn good, especially when it's often <50g or even <40g.

Yet, MILLIONS of people eat HUNDREDS of grams of carbs per day, don't clean their teeeth, and don't have nearly as many tooth problems and beautiful gums.  Just my luck.  So, it's a bit challenging right now.  Life goes on.

Please keep the ideas coming, but I'm so far I've already been doing them all, other than 100% raw.  Meanwhile, I was pulling "high" fish out of the back of the fridge at work today, and made the mistake of opening it before going outside.  Oops.

Thx.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on June 21, 2019, 10:55:33 pm
I think muscle testing is a way for your sub conscious to communicate with your conscious mind.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on June 22, 2019, 01:12:08 am
My experience with muscle testers is that they have been bogus.  I'm sensitive enough to know when someone is pulling down on my arm and when someone is faking it.  The only way to truly muscle test is to do it blind folded and repeatedly.  Which means you don't know what your holding nor does the person pulling down on your arm. and then to do it ten times, alternating with other foods. 


    You have a bacteria in your mouth that is feeding on the foods you are eating.  Their excrement is acidic and destroying the enamel on your teeth.  They are also forming colonies under your  gums and proliferating every ten minutes. 
   Find out either what is allowing them  in the first place  (immune system ) or take away their food source. (Green apples for instance and the remaining sugars in buttermilk that haven't been converted into lactic acid) or up you oral cleansing to where there is nothing left for them to feed on.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: norawnofun on June 22, 2019, 04:24:09 am
@ProsPerryT I would look at my water source. When I was drinking lots of carbonated mineral water my teeth were regressing a lot. Even normal mineral water has plenty of inorganic minerals which to my understanding are everything else than beneficial.

@van since you mentioned green apples, do you think they are beneficial for the teeth due to their malic acid content?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: surfsteve on June 22, 2019, 10:56:59 pm
I agree with Van so far as blindfolded muscle testing doesn't work but still think there is some value to it otherwise.

Norawnofun: Malic acid! I had forgotten that I used to consume enormous quantities of the stuff in supplement form. Never had a problem with it like I do with cider vinegar giving me allergies. For now I'll stick with only lemons and buy some green apples next time they go on sale. I'll consider going to the supplement if I feel the need for more acid, though it would probably be a step backwards.

Acids used to bother my teeth when I was a child but not at all on a raw food diet. I wonder why that is.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on June 25, 2019, 05:01:16 am
@ProsPerryT I would look at my water source. When I was drinking lots of carbonated mineral water my teeth were regressing a lot. Even normal mineral water has plenty of inorganic minerals which to my understanding are everything else than beneficial.

@van since you mentioned green apples, do you think they are beneficial for the teeth due to their malic acid content?

Not beneficial, but any apples leave a residue of sugar for bacteria to feed on,, unless rinsing well after eating.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: ProsPerryT on July 02, 2019, 11:51:52 am
I have so many updates to this that I'm not sure I have time to type them all:

1) All this talk about tooth issues being caused ONLY by attack from the outside of teeth is only partially true from what I've read.  It ignores that fact that teeth are alive, and have fluid flow from the inside towards the outside through the tubules in the dentin... and the bacteria, etc on the outside cannot get to the inside and decay the teeth.  Thus it literally wouldn't matter if a person swished around a bunch of sticky sweet fruit and went to sleep.  The problem would be from when the person INJESTED too many carbs too rapidly and the blood sugar spiked.  Then the flow direction of the tooth fluid reverses.... At least that's what my research said.  I have no idea if that's true.  But thought I'd mention it here as a possibility, and why this talk of even just a single green apple with the very few carbs in it (they are not even remotely sweet and sugary like red apples) is something to practically fear unless all rinsed so well afterwards, etc.  Yes, I rinse and even floss a bit after eating an apple, but it's more about the lower pH of them than the possibility to grow bacteria, that concerns me personally.  In other words, I don't see any reason to be borderline fearful of them, or any other moderately sweet and/or acidic food.  Humans eat much worse and still have all their teeth.  And have for centuries.  It wasn't until the PROCESSED foods (white sugar, white flour, etc) that the tooth decay really proliferated.  Price's research proved that.

2) Along those lines, if you follow Natural Hygiene and other less common, but more accurate, principles... then it's more about the damage to the structure of the fats, protein, and carbs that causes the real problem.  In other words: PROCESSED foods.  The body has to deal with them more, and differently, than unprocessed raw foods (the real reason we are on this forum).  Well, that concept that goes farther than just meats.  It goes for ALL categories of food.

3) For example, I personally get far stickier nastier mouth in the hours following my eating too much meat and fat than I do from eating too many carbs.  I ate half a pound of week old "high" raw salmon today, followed with a dozen leaves of raw spinach to scrub the mouth clean of all the fat.  Then flossed, brushed, and rinsed with a baking soda paste.  Clean mouth after.  Within only an hour or two I had a sticky film all over my mouth (and was oddly voraciously thirsty.  I still didn't drink water for a few more hours so that I wouldn't mess up (dilute) my digestion of the meat.)  The point is: thinking that eating meat and fat somehow mean having a "cleaner" mouth forbacteria than if one eats sugary foods is totally not true for me, and no doubt many others.  Those are foods that have an "acidic ash" (final state after being broken-down by the body in the digestive processes) and that can both be 1) just as acidic and 2) fuel/food for bacteria and other critters in a person's mouth, GI track, etc.  I certainly wouldn't be falling asleep with a mouthful of meat, or fat, or anything else... just like I wouldn't with a mouthful of fruit, veggies.

4) And to cover that base too, I have also started using a new more comprehensive product called "Great Oral Health Advanced Oral Probiotics" at night in order to get the correct strains in the mouth before sleeping.

5) Meanwhile, from what I've learned, a big part of the reason that many high protein eaters can't lose weight, get rid of their diabetes, or even get their blood sugar levels down in spite of eating less than 20g carbs, is because the excess protein (more than a half pound per day) gets converted to glucose in the body, and thus into the blood stream.  Thus, that concept plays into this tooth discussion in semi-related concept as well.  Just thought I'd mention it as a side-point: endless meat consumption doesn't actually mean low carb.  How applicable that is to the mouth end I don't know specifically.

6) No, I never drink carbonated or non-carbonated mineral water.  Wrecks my digestion for the rest of the day.  Good call.  Thank you.

7) ALL my muscle testing has been "blind" to me.  I purposely do not look so as not to influence the results.  And there have been times that I have and the results were very much the opposite of what I preferred consciously, with no belief on my part that somehow my subconscious held some different belief.  On the other side of the interaction: My practitioner is higher trained in being impartial and does an excellent job at it.  And as such: my results have been absolutely consistent and repeatable.  Over and over and over.  Thus, your comments about it being biased and subconscious and such, although I feel are true for the majority of OTHER people doing it wrong, do not apply to me.  Further: disregarding muscle-testing because OTHER people do it wrong, is a very foolish decision to make in life.  You're missing out on a critical tool for personalized answers.  Same as not believing in all sorts of other techniques like dowsing, aura-reading, physics, other meta-physical tools, etc.  OF COURSE there are charlatans.  But do they wreck it for you.  No.  EXAMPLE: Because there are shady crooked used car dealers, means you don't buy used cars ever?  Well, whatever works for ya.  I always buy used cars!

8) I won't get into it much here but there are many people who don't believe in the Conscious and Subconscious as conventionally described... which I what I believe was being referred to here.  Many believe that the BRAIN is only 1) a PROCESSOR of the current surroundings (input filter and pattern recognizer) so that immediate responses/adjustments can be made (to stay safe, enjoy sensual experiences, etc), and 2) a RECIEVER of vibration/information from the universe.  Memory, emotions, etc are not stored in the BRAIN.  They are received from the UNIVERSAL MIND, to be experienced in the INDIVIDUAL MIND.  The MIND is not the BRAIN.  That's all I'll say on that, but not liking muscle-testing being based on the conventional [incorrect?] concept of subconscious to me is flawed in of itself.  But to each their own.

9) Back to planet Earth and my teeth... I got a 2nd opinion from a different dentist just a couple days ago.  This was 2 months after the first dentist saying that I had the 7 spots of decay and needed all subsequent numbing shots and drill'n'fills below the gumline.  Well the 2nd one said that:
   * I do indeed have exposed dentin (inside of the tooth) below my gumlines, which is dark in color INHERENTLY, and then gets darker because it's more susceptible to staining/discoloring from blueberries and similar without the enamel. But, that darkness is NOT a sign of decay for me!
   * He poked with the goddam sharp pick (I HATE when they do that... making more dents in my teeth) but said that they were NOT soft areas of decay!  He said that if it were him, he would NOT get any fillings.
   * He said that my teeth are not decaying, but DISSOLVING.  Why?  Possibilities include 1) acid (real acid like stomach acid from GERD), 2) pressure: chewing too much, too hard, grinding, etc.  I chew my food far too intensely, this I know.  3) Clenching/grinding, especially in my sleep.  This I also do, and have done for years. 
   * RESULTS: The clenching pressure bends the teeth at the gumline (not at the root) and the minerals get removed from the flex point, and the gums recede further away even lower.  The grinding pits the top of the teeth, and even wears the enamel away (I have little enamel left on the tops of my teeth and they are even getting flatter and flatter.
   * PLAN: 1) I'm wearing a device while I sleep tonight that will measure my heart rate and oxygen levels to see how my sleep patterns are.  (He recommended the book "Sleep Interrupted".)  This can influence everything from GERD, to the clenching/grinding, to poor healing, poor mineralization, and feeling exhausted when I awake (I almost NEVER feel rested when I awake).  2) We will map the bite structure using a 3D mapping machine to find wear my bite is messed up and 3) probably build some sort of bite guard that will simultaneously help me with both challenges.

To me teeth are of highest priority.  I figured typing all this might help someone somewhere sometime with their own challenges in these areas too.  And to share how happy I am that I don't have nearly the problem that I was previously told I had.  It doesn't mean I still don't have the above challenges, but I'll take them over decay ANY DAY.  There's light at the end of the tunnel.

The real question is: 1) Was the 1st dentist wrong?  OR 2) Was he correct, and my relatively low carb, high raw dairy and raw meat diet actually helping toughen the teeth up in the 2 month timeframe between dentists???   I'll probably never know.  Life is a f'n rollercoaster, that's for sure.

Later yall.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: van on July 03, 2019, 04:35:05 am
all good information.  You might go back and ask the first dentist if indeed he felt soft spots ( if he can remember  ).  Yes Bruxxing will tear apart teeth.  Did your dentist not suggest a night guard for you ?
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: ProsPerryT on July 23, 2019, 11:06:06 am
Well, I couldn't post any replies for the past number of weeks... using any of 3 browsers.  Looks like it's not exactly fixed now either because I can post on some threads, but not others. (WTF?).

I have too many updates to type again.  Not sure we're all on the same wavelengths here anyway.  But long story short it's going down the path of sleep studies to address all sorts of issues I've had my entire life, because the dental issues can all be correlated to that underlying issue.  We gotta see if they are for me.  I did an O2 and pulse monitor for a few nights, and my graphs were spiking (O2 down and pulse up) a number of times per hour.  had like 50-60 events per night.  No wonder I never feel refreshed after sleeping.
Title: Re: Science of Tooth Yellowing and Decay
Post by: ProsPerryT on July 24, 2019, 02:01:53 pm
Holy crap, my post actually worked... let's try the second part:

FYI - this was a really good show yesterday.  Not sure if it will still be available by the time you read this though...
   https://www.naturalhealth365.com/free-show/
      OR
   https://soundcloud.com/naturalhealth365/gum-disease-a-safe-and-natural-solution

Gum Disease – A Safe and Natural Solution
Our Guest: Dr. Alvin Danenberg incorporates Primal Nutrition & Primal Lifestyle with his laser surgery protocol to treat advanced gum disease. He received his dental degree in 1972, and his Specialty in Periodontics in 1974. In 2014, Dr. Danenberg received the designation of Certified Functional Medicine Practitioner as well as the designation of Certified Primal Health Coach. In July 2015, he wrote the Integrative Periodontal Module for the College of Integrative Medicine’s 300-hour certified program and his latest book called, Crazy-Good LIVING! Gum disease is currently affecting millions of people – but, in many case, people walk around undiagnosed and uninformed about the dangers. For example, gum disease will increase your risk of losing your teeth; getting a heart attack and even losing your mind – in the case of many forms of dementia. This is truly a silent killer – so, how do we deal with this? On this show, we’ll reveal the true cause of gum disease – but, more importantly get rid of many misconceptions about this often-ignored condition and how to naturally reverse the problem and AVOID future sickness and premature death.

I contacted him directly to see what he'd say about a REAL Primal Diet. (https://drdanenberg.com/)
He said he never heard of it, or Aajonus...  Wow.