Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet => Topic started by: Craig on May 05, 2008, 01:26:38 pm
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For those on the raw paleo diet and don't do well on zero carb, how much carbohydrate do you need to keep yourselves feeling up to par?
Craig
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You know I've never taken account of how I felt based on amounts of carbs eaten. When I was still eating SAD and the low carb diets started gaining popularity I didn't much pay attention, I figured it was just for losing weight. Then after starting vegetarian and continuing through many different diet paths I didn't stop to think about low carb because I thought I was "beyond that" and that it was for people who wanted to lose weight but still eat their chicken breasts or bacon or whatever.
I feel like I'm a pretty even keel as far as macro nutrient ratios go. For a while I was on a nearly fruitarian diet, and I don't remember having head aches or being overly emotional. I can say though that I had a "fuzzy" feeling after several days of eating mostly bananas. I know bananas are not the best or most natural fruit, and after a few days of sticking to my banana diet I would lose all desire to consume them and get that feeling, which I can really best describe as fuzzy. Maybe a yeast growth in my body from so much sugar, or a yeast die off from previous growth, or maybe a direct effect from the sugar.
So since I haven't been able to notice changes depending on carb levels, I really have no idea how much carbs I "need" to feel a certain way, or if I would do better without any. I'm not sure I'm ready to experiment with it either, I'm still balking a little at the idea of eating most of my meals as plain meat and organs. Just this week I didn't finish a bowel of plain chicken liver because I didn't like the taste, and it seemed harsh or spicy even. I've been feeding it to my cat so it doesn't go to waste. I do remember one time I had a bowel of livers and they tasted like nothing at all, I really enjoyed it. I'm not sure if it was because they were really fresh and healthy, or maybe it was a bad sign of low mineral levels.
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i feel best sticking between 50 and 100g of carbs a day on average. there are days were i get below 10 and feel fine for the time being. theres also some days that i get maybe 150grams. but generally i feel best between 50 and 100grams.
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How do you measure amount of carbs? I guess it's easy if you use fitday or something, but I don't see myself going to the trouble. I suppose if I had health problems I identified as going along with carb consumption I would do it.
I think what keeps me from getting that in depth is that I am afraid of my diet taking over (or keeping hold of, it already has taken over a large part of my life).
For example I already talked about in another post the vacation I'm going on soon, and I'll let some things slide there just for convenience. I'd like to travel to foreign countries and I will definitely not be able to keep my same diet going in that situation. So I'm trying to adopt the mindset of doing the best I can in any given situation and not trying to over-analyze or worry. Counting nutrients to the gram seems to me like over-analyzing.
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i usually eat the same thing everyday give or take, so all my carbs come from berries with breakfast and lunch. but once in a while ill have a cooked yam just for a good glucose replenishment after a few days of low carbs. it really mostly depends on my workouts. if im just doing say chest/tri and some form of moderate cardio i wont supplement with carbs after my workout, but if im doing HIIT or just a long cardio session than ill add in some supplemental dextrose(25g+/-)in my post workout protein shake, which would bring it up to a 'high-carb day'(100g+).
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Why ever would you need a protein shake eating raw meat? You know all those studies saying how bad animal protein is, were studies using fractionated protein as is found in protein shakes. If you feel the need for a protein shake, why not just make a raw liver shake or something of that nature instead?
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because a raw liver shake everyday doesnt sound too appealing to me. im about 90% Raw Paleo, hey, i even drink coffee, im not worried about it. maybe one day ill be 100% but for now i feel fine. im not aware of these studies of fractionated animal protein being bad(although it wouldnt suprise me), do you have any links?
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TheWayCreatesTheWarrior, (what a name!)
I'm not knocking not being 100% raw. I think it's great how raw you are.
Here's are a couple of quotes with references.
The claim that animal protein intake causes calcium loss from the bones is another popular nutritional myth that has no backing in nutritional science. The studies that supposedly showed protein to cause calcium loss in the urine were NOT done with real, whole foods, but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders (3).
When studies were done with people eating meat with its fat, NO calcium loss was detected in the urine, even over a long period of time (3). Other studies have confirmed that meat eating does not affect calcium balance (4) and that protein promotes stronger bones (5). Furthermore, the saturated fats that many experts believe are so evil are actually required for proper calcium deposition in the bones (6).
From: http://www.powerofmeat.com/High_Protein_Diets.htm (http://www.powerofmeat.com/High_Protein_Diets.htm)
Protein powders are the culprit proteins
What is significant in the various studies of protein intake and bone density is that the studies which purported to show protein intake caused calcium loss were not conducted with real foods but with isolated amino acids and fractionated protein powders of the sort used by low-carb dieters and athletes. The reason why these amino acids and fat-free protein powders caused calcium loss while the fat meat diet did not is because protein, calcium, and minerals require the fat-soluble vitamins A and D for their assimilation and utilisation by the body. When protein is consumed without these factors it upsets the normal biochemistry of the body and mineral loss results.[xviii] True vitamin A and full-complex vitamin D are only found in animal fats. Furthermore, saturated fats that are present with meat are essential for proper calcium deposition in the bones.[xix] It should be no surprise, therefore that vegan diets have been shown to place women at the greatest risk for osteoporosis.[xx] [xxi]
From: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/osteoporosis.html (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/osteoporosis.html)
Craig
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right on Craig, thanks for the excerpts and links.
i understand and agree with whats said in the excepts, it only makes sense to eat whole foods, but its just really hard to get out of the bodybuilding mindset that ive been in since 17 years old; "you need a quick source of protein immediately after you workout".
i did have a 1.5 yr stint of 100% raw paleo, but i just found that raw meat, being very neutral tasting, got pretty boring day-in and day-out and eventually decided to spice it up alittle with some cooked foods. i definitely felt best on 100%, not easy to explain to people who havent done 100%rawpaleo but you just feel really strong and clean and natural, im sure you know what i mean. anyway, coincedently i have had the urge to go 100% again for the last couple weeks and stumbled upon the link to this forum via the Sunfood forum, something may be syncronizing here ;).
thanks again, and thanks for the forum.
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Why ever would you need a protein shake eating raw meat? You know all those studies saying how bad animal protein is, were studies using fractionated protein as is found in protein shakes. If you feel the need for a protein shake, why not just make a raw liver shake or something of that nature instead?
What about the amino acid L-glutamine? That would make a good choice for after workouts, wouldn't it?
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What about the amino acid L-glutamine? That would make a good choice for after workouts, wouldn't it?
i have supplemented with Glutamine Post WO, and before bed. ive heard some people arent convinced that it helps any in bodybuilding. but supposedly it raises GH and is an immune-booster.
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L-Glutamine shouldn't be a problem at all so long as you're getting sufficient animal products in your diet, which shouldn't be a problem on any RAF diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine)
Craig
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hi all, I'm interested in this topic as well.
I am an active person (3-4 gym workout days) and 1-2 bike rides per week.
It means about 3-4 hour at the gym and 6 hours on the bike weekly.
Of course since I went almost 100% raw I fell less the need to supplement my diet, but I ma convinced something is still needed.
Here's my supplementation:
pre WO: nothing
durng WO: gym=only water
bike= cho (maltodextrins) or fruits (banana) if the ride is very long a bottle of water with alcalysing powder (cytrates)
after WO: fruit juice with amminoacidc (bcaa+glutammine)
with this supplementation plan an a paleo diet that is almost fully raw I can train and racover quite quickly.
What are your opinions ?
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hi all, I'm interested in this topic as well.
I am an active person (3-4 gym workout days) and 1-2 bike rides per week.
It means about 3-4 hour at the gym and 6 hours on the bike weekly.
Of course since I went almost 100% raw I fell less the need to supplement my diet, but I ma convinced something is still needed.
Here's my supplementation:
pre WO: nothing
durng WO: gym=only water
bike= cho (maltodextrins) or fruits (banana) if the ride is very long a bottle of water with alcalysing powder (cytrates)
after WO: fruit juice with amminoacidc (bcaa+glutammine)
with this supplementation plan an a paleo diet that is almost fully raw I can train and racover quite quickly.
What are your opinions ?
Sounds good. If your finding it's working for you then great. Most of what you supplement is for replenishing glycogen to the liver and muscles isn't it?
Raw meat is packed full of glutamine compared to cooked meat. Glutamine is destroyed by heat. You could consider increasing your raw meat consumption after a hard workout.
Have you tried adding raw liver? it is full of 'B' vitamins and has an anti fatigue factor.
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Sounds good. If your finding it's working for you then great. Most of what you supplement is for replenishing glycogen to the liver and muscles isn't it?
Raw meat is packed full of glutamine compared to cooked meat. Glutamine is destroyed by heat. You could consider increasing your raw meat consumption after a hard workout.
Have you tried adding raw liver? it is full of 'B' vitamins and has an anti fatigue factor.
Yes, most of my supplenentation is for glycogen re-store. Of course, after a hard WO you have to repair muscle damage as well (here lies the need for ammino acids) moreover a read in different sources that glutammine is important to avoid immune system stress.
I usually eat some raw liver (or raw heart, that should also be rich in carnitine), but non in very big quantities, in order to favour glycogen replenishment.
I got inspiered in this plan by Cordain/Friel "The paleo diet for athetes" book.
I think it's a milestone in athletes nutrition.
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I personally believe one can perform athletically well without any carbs and even perhaps better but with breaks between athletic feats like 2-3 days.
Aerobic or anaerobic, the muscles can very effectively use fat as fuel.
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This may be true, and probably is, if you practice a mid-low intensity activity and, as you state, Kristelle, with 2-3 days rest between WOs.
But when you go at, or above, your aerobic thresold for a significant amount of time and with little or no rest, it is impossible.
According o my experience.
What a cyclist, or another endurance athlete, can do is improve the use of fat as fuel, but it's impossible to rely only on them.
Fat metabolism is too slow to allow for a quick and full recover.
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Even when above aerobic threshold (i.e. anaerobic), you can do very well on fat and protein alone. At first, you will feel sluggish but give it a few weeks and you'll see...plus, you won't get that burn in your muscles due to lactic acid.
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Sorry, Kristelle, but this is simply impossible.
When you go above you anaerobic thresold, you can only use glycogen (and it is a very small stock), when you enpty your glycogen stores you are fininished, you can only stop and recover (replenish glycogen stores via carbos o neoglucogenesis).
That's our physiology.
You simply can't rely on fats only if you don't wait those long recovery periods.
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I've been waiting for someone to come on this forum who exercises alot like myself. I practice martial arts, weight lift, run etc.
Luigi,do you eat after your workouts? What do you eat? Do you think one big meal a day would be the best thing for a person working out multiple times a day? I would like to hear your opinion, please.
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Some would argue to muscle never uses glucose and only fat, whether under or above aerobic threshold.
From The Bear who's lived at least 50 years on zero-carb:
"Two studies relate to energy source and exercise, both were done with lab rats. One shows by muscle biopsy/analysis that the glycogen in muscle tissue does not vary with exercise, whether anaerobic or anaerobic. The other shows massive gains in endurance over a sufficiently long period of adaptation to a zero carb diet. This study is one of the very few to use a true zero carb diet against a normal rat-chow control in a test."
"Rapid intense effort (anaerobic) uses ATP, which degrades with muscular contraction into ADP. ADP is reconverted into ATP by a mechanism fueled by fatty acids complexed with n-acetyl carnitine. No carbohydrate is involved. Aerobic activity is fueled the same way."
"I am carb free, I exercise anaerobically by lifting weights. I NEVER get sore muscles the next day- or the day after unless I am forcing a severe weight overload, which causes more severe micro damage to the muscles, and some second-day soreness. So there's the 'practical' proof that glycogen does not deplete with exercise."
"You can train for endurance (aerobic) or strength (anaerobic) Each uses a different modification of the basic muscle fibre. Each person has a mix of type 1 and type 2, or fast twitch, slow twitch. If you train as a marathoner, you suppress one and enhance the other- if you train as a sprinter, the reverse happens. It is an either/or situation. You cannot be at the same time both a marathoner and a sprinter- there is no free lunch. ALL muscle fibres use the same fuel, fast and slow both burn only fat. NO muscle fibre uses carbs. (Once more) glycogen is not used to do work, only ATP-ADP reduction is used, that is rebuilt by fat. Glycogen does not produce ATP. Glycogen is not depleted with exercise- this is proven and is in the literature. Opinions to the contrary are just repeating fairy tales from the past. Carb intake reduces strength/speed, and likewise reduces endurance/distance."
"Muscle cells 'run' on ATP-ADP conversion. ADP-ATP re-conversion is done with FFA's. It makes no difference whether the exercise is anaerobic or aerobic, the muscles still work the same way. This is like a car- whether in first gear or in overdrive, it still uses the same fuel. Glucose is not a fuel. Glycogen is not a fuel. Neither can be used to translate ADP back into ATP until converted into FFA first. Mitochondria mediate ADP to ATP conversion which is why there are two 'types' (fast and slow twitch) of muscle cells, fibre bundles with more mitochondria have a different response to the two types of work, aerobic and anaerobic. The mix of types in a given muscle can be altered to some extent by training."
"I am a very active type and back when I was dancing, trust me, any problems with either aerobic or anaerobic exorcise from zero carbs would have been obvious and serious. In fact, I had more energy, more endurance and better control of my body (at my level of skill) than anyone else in the classes I took. I ride a bike hard up the hills and down, and lift weights..."
"Muscle glycogen (or liver glycogen, or ketones) is NEVER used as a 'fuel' for muscles- either in doing aerobic OR in anaerobic work. The glycogen is only there as storage for quick adjustment of blood sugar levels, and in a zero-carb, keto-adapted diet usually does not vary. Please note, carefully: Muscle contraction (i.e.-the standard skeletal 'motor' of the body) is 'fueled' by ATP-ADP conversion. ADP is re-converted to ATP ONLY by a process which uses FFA's. Properly controlled tests have indicated that muscle glycogen is never 'depleted' during exercise."
You can email him directly at the-bear@thebear.org
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I don't understand the science behind what the bear is saying..I'm getting flashbacks to uni biology classes though but Luigi's workouts are massive compared to dancing and riding a bike around town.
I'm inclined to agree with Luigi who lives and breathes this kind of endurance racing lifestyle. These guys lives revolve around racing training having the best $$$equipment. They know their stuff.
My experience isn't much but at the moment I believe we do use glycogen above the anaerobic threshold. I "hit the wall' after about 50 min of running above my anaerobic threshold. I've come to a complete stop 4 km's from my house and had to walk home after feeling great and running at a great pace then WHAM! I'm gone.
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I've been waiting for someone to come on this forum who exercises alot like myself. I practice martial arts, weight lift, run etc.
Luigi,do you eat after your workouts? What do you eat? Do you think one big meal a day would be the best thing for a person working out multiple times a day? I would like to hear your opinion, please.
Sully, I workout only once a day, but almost everyday.
After my WOs, I generally drink a shake with fruit jiuce and amminoacid (bcaa+glutammine). I noticed that it gives me a recovery push.
Then, on weekdays (when I wo after work) I have dinner (raw meat, some veggies and lard). On weekends (when I ride) I get ammmonoacids and raw honey, then lunch (if it's lunch time) with rice or potatoes with raw butter and some raw proteins.
What I eat, and how much strongly depends on WO volume.
I have no experience on daily multiple workouts, but I believe that something (at least a shake) is needed after wo, outherwise you feel empty for a long time.
I tried several times with no recharge, but everytime I tried I got the same result: empy feeling and eventually doms for several days, and this doesn't help facing the new workout, definitely.
I read about the "warrior diet" (I suppese you are talking about it, when you speak of having only 1 big meal per day). I've heard of people applying it with good results, but they wo only once a day, usually in late afternoon, so they can dinner afterwards. Otherwise you have to take some supplementation.
I hope I have anwered your questions, is no, please tell me.
I'm going to post my tipical nutrition/workout plan, in order to show it to you (maybe help someone) and get some feedback.
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Kristelle, your post is very interesting, but I want to underline some points:
1) As the bear says: It takes a long period of adaptation to zero carb. What can you do in the meanwhile ? Nothing, because you feel very bad or empty or powreless. And if it happens to eat some carbs ? Will I go back to starting point and need to wait that long adaptation period ?
This is practically impossible (for me and everyone how has a social life)
2) He says "I exercise anaerobically by lifting weights. I NEVER get sore muscles the next day- or the day after unless I am forcing a severe weight overload, which causes more severe micro damage to the muscles, and some second-day soreness. So there's the 'practical' proof that glycogen does not deplete with exercise."
I can't see the proof. He says he doesn't get muscle soreness, but if he trains severely hard he gets this is a countersense (he never gets, but he gets...)
Again, where's the proof ??
3) What he says about ATP-ADP is right, but.
One big question: if we don't use glycogen, why do we need it in bloodstream ?
Googling "anaerocal glycolisis" I found that: glycogen (converted to glucose) can be used aerobically to produce 38 ATP molecules, or anearobically to produce lactic acid, that is a great energy source used to resithetise ATP.
Kristelle, honestly, make a try. Try to run as wodgina for 50 min at high intensity, going around or above your anaerobic thresold.
Then post your feelings. If you have a Heart Rate Monitor, you could post the training data as well, so we will see if you ran so hardly.
Another question: is there ONE elite athlete that lives zero carb ?
I can't find one. there should be a reson...
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Kristelle, honestly, make a try. Try to run as wodgina for 50 min at high intensity, going around or above your anaerobic thresold.
Then post your feelings. If you have a Heart Rate Monitor, you could post the training data as well, so we will see if you ran so hardly.
Another question: is there ONE elite athlete that lives zero carb ?
I can't find one. there should be a reson...
I'm zero carb raw carnivore for health reasons and I have just started training for 'adventure races' eg Mountain bike/kayak/run/swim for up to 5-6 hours for fun. I'm also doing weights and go surfing and kite surfing!
I'm recording all my heart rate readings such as MaxHR, RestingHR as well as HR averages etc I am also recording my times and how I feel as well as recovery for every workout.
I'm hoping you stick around so I can get some advice.
Cheers
Andrew
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Luigi,
I really suggest you talk directly with him...he's a really interesting guy. He has much more experience than I do and is much more active than I am.
Re: glycogen, the Bear states:
"The glycogen is only there as storage for quick adjustment of blood sugar levels"
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I think I'll be around, Andrew, don't worry.
Kristelle, Maybe I will write the bear, but my question, for what I see has no aswer:
Is there at least one athlete that's at elite level practicing zero carb ?
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I think I'll be around, Andrew, don't worry.
Kristelle, Maybe I will write the bear, but my question, for what I see has no aswer:
Is there at least one athlete that's at elite level practicing zero carb ?
i'm going to do zero carb this winter, I excersize alot. 6 times a week. In the morning and the afternoon. Martial Arts, circuit, running, weight lifting, isometrics, etc. I will let you know how I feel on zero carb.
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Yes you did answer my question. I look forward to your journal.
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i'm going to do zero carb this winter, I excersize alot. 6 times a week. In the morning and the afternoon. Martial Arts, circuit, running, weight lifting, isometrics, etc. I will let you know how I feel on zero carb.
Yesss
this would be great ;) ;) ;)
But one problem remains: your activities (even if practiced several times a day) are not continuous. It's different to have 4 hours diveded in 4 one hour workout and one 4 hours workout, I guess.
Endurnce sports are non-paleo activities. That's the reason why it doesn't work, in my opinion.
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Each workout is an endurance workout. Endurance is simply the ability to keep going. I will beef up my running distance for you to really see how zero carb does for endurance.
Here is when and what I do ....
6 am= wake up, lift weights or do isometrics
9am= Run around in gym for 1 hour
3 pm=i do martial arts and run or jump rope or bikeride or circuit
Current Training
every other day=weight lifting and isometrics,finger and fist pushups, foot work training and bobby and weaving
every day=stretch,martial arts, forearm strengthening, back strengthening, stomach strengthening, endurance training
monday thru fri= school gym 1 hour
Sunday=off
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Endurance sports are non-paleo activities. That's the reason why it doesn't work, in my opinion.
This is exactly what I was thinking. If you must take in carbs nearly daily (and not just vegetables or nonsweet fruit) in order to sustain an activity, chances are it is not paleo (depending on location and food availability, etc.). That is why I tend to think that a marathon at full throttle was not in our evolutionary past much outside the tropics (and that is perhaps why people from the tropics excel at endurance sport. Probably more of a HIIT model, I think. That said, to each his own; enjoy your workout of choice.
I am not zero carb, but I am under 40 grams a day carbs consistently. I practice taekwondo 4-6 days a week. Yesterday I did 2.5 hours straight, including some sparring drills, which are very intense, short duration, but then the workout continues and the sweat pours. I have been low carb for years and can sustain this kind of workout, no problem. Usually people claim you need carbs for anaerobic training. I have even done my workout on a fast of one grapefruit juice and one bone broth a day, but that felt strange at the end of 4 days. I am not elite, but I am testing for 1st Dan black belt Saturday, and my conditioning and skill level are very good for my age. I taught aerobics 6 days a week for 20 years in the past too, often 2 hours back to back.
I am very interested to see what Andrew will do zero carb endurance. He is younger and chooses the running, which is great. I will probably be teaching and training in taekwondo mostly, so I will not even try to experiment in this way. Besides, I like my salads. Though I do enjoy swimming, running and biking for recreation. I love the outdoors. Hey Andrew, how fast are you running at what distance?
This is not very scientific on how many carbs and what foods were eaten, but here is an example of an elite athlete: Ethiopian Mamo Wolde who finished a very elite time, even by modern standards, of 2:20:27 at the very high altitude of 2240 meters at the Mexico City Olympics in 1968, winning the gold medal in the marathon. He ate a low-carb, traditional Ethiopian diet.
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Sully experiment will be great, indeed.
We will see how long will he be able to sustain it...
Satya, I agree with you 100%.
Low carb is good (given the apporpriate recarge at the right time), zero carb laves me a lot of doubts.
Even body builders, that train in a paleo-like way go in ketosys, but a cyclical one, not a chronicle one.
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Likewise, I could ask you, Luigi, has anyone of these elite performers ever tried to zero-carb for more than 8 weeks (allow for keto-adaptation)? Probably not. Perhaps the Bear can enlighten you and then you can share with us what he has to say. Deal?
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Likewise, I could ask you, Luigi, has anyone of these elite performers ever tried to zero-carb for more than 8 weeks (allow for keto-adaptation)? Probably not. Perhaps the Bear can enlighten you and then you can share with us what he has to say. Deal?
Yes, maibe I'll write him and share his rply.
In the meanwhile I posted my journal, please have a look.
PS: I wrote the bear....
Let's see if he will answer, I'll post any news I get.
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Here's "the Bear"'s reply:
1 - If muscle glycogen doesn't vary with exercise, why do we "hit the wall" ?
That is the liver, which on carbs fills with glycogen while removing it from the blood. the bloating then interferes with blood transit and slows furnishing fat on demand. After ketoadaptation, fat moves freely and the liver does not act as a first line of action (sweeper) to remove the glucose from the blood, first as glycogen, and then converting it into fatty acids..
- A long adatpation period is needed to zero carb adaptation. What will happen if, after adaptation it happens to eat some carb ? Shall we wait for that long adaptation period after just one carb meal ?
Takes from two to four weeks only to keto-adapt. Eating carbs will interfere with adaptation for the simple reason that glucose is so toxic it will kill you very quickly (diabetic coma) if not removed from the blood- thus the adaptation is quenched, insulin floods out and the carbs stored as fat... and you must start over.
2 - In a 2 minutes high intensity effort, after ATP depletion (ATP stoks endure just some 10 seconds) glycogen is needed to provide energy via the chain: glycogen - glucose - pyruvic acid - lactic acid
This is what we know. It that chain wrong ? Is there a study that proves it wrong ?
It does not happen. ONLY ATP provides the energy for muscular contractions, and is renewed by an enzymatic process involving n-carnityl-FFA complex. You are completely wrong about the ATP supply. What you have partially described (pyruvic/Krebs) is part of the conversion process for making fat from glucose.
3 - You say that you never get muscle soreness, but later you say that if you train hard you get doms. This is a contraddiction. What about a serious athlete who trains hard almost everydays ? I agree that one can train moderately with zero carb. But it's impossible to have big training volume with zero carb (recovery time will be too long)
Quite simple- if you train every day you will become weaker and smaller. NO 'serious' athlete trains more than two or three days/week. Your body does NOT grow from exercise, which actually damages it. Working too heavy or for too long causes enough damage to make you sore, the proper level does not. You only grow or improve in strength and fitness while resting and recovering from exercise.
4 - I agree with you that both muscle fibre type work on ATP-ADP, that is produced from fat, but when you have to resinthetize ATP quickly and in oxygen debt (anaerobically) glucose is needed to provide the required energy. This is chemistry. I agre that ADT-ATPis done with FFA (if there is enough oxygen). Where is the required energy taken, if there's not enough oxygen to oxidize FFA ? (i.e. working at an anaerobical regime)
No you are wrong again, as you have been from your first paragraph.
5 - You say you are a very active person, ok. But there's dofference between dancing and training just for hobby, or training hard everyday (someone twice a day) for racing and possibly get some good results. For instance I am a cyclist and my long rides are 4-5 hours at medium-high intensity. Do you see what I mean ?
I see that you have nothing to contribute, and like to make a lot of 'noise' about bullshit. You haven't a clue as to my level of activity OR my fitness. Only fools train twice a day. Overtraining is not worthy of braggadocio.
6 - Again, glycogen is not the fuel, it's the energy source to produce ATP from FFA via lactic acid formation.
Wrong.
- You say that glycogen only serves as a storage to regulate blood sugar levels. So, what's the purpose of sugar in blood, is we don't use it?
SOME tissues do use it- tendons, cartilage and dense nervous tissues for instance.
On a zero carb regime, we use a very small amount of glucose- <5gm/day in the presence of ketone bodies, a fat metabolite which substitutes for glucose and provides the major energy source for the few tissues unable to utilise fat. The normal blood level is ~100 mg/dl, or a total in an average person of less than 5 gms. Glucose is VERY toxic, only insulin is somewhat more damaging- but won't kill you quite so rapidly as excess blood glucose.
Take my advice, don't believe what you hear about diet and biomechanics- it is all rubbish.
If you like meat and love fat, and can eat it rare and without salt, and want to eat the all meat way, and are happy doing that, then go for it. If not- then stay where you are.
I know it is the right way, but I really have no interest in arguing with anyone who can't accept what I have to say, and trust me, after 50 years eating this regime, there is no question whatsoever about what is real and what is nonsense. Science? All lies- told for money.
I am including my simple rules. Be careful and don't obsess over the food- if you can't eat it with pleasure and without thinking much about it you should stay where you are dietary wise.
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Cheers.
Well, it seems to me that he took my objections as an attack to his eating style. I was only trying to undestand what's beneath...
But I see that there's no science, it's a sort of "if you blind believe it, take it without proofs nor explanations".
Sincerely, I don't believe this is a fully safe regimen. Moreover it's practcically unaffordable for me.
I am forced to lunch out, and it is impossible to have a lunch that is 100% meat and fat (possibly raw). I would mean no possibily of going out with friends. Too sad for me.
The bear believes that glucose is evil and insuline too, I think insulin is the more powerful anabolic hormone and glucose (carbos) must be used to stimulate il at the right moment.
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Geez, dude seems pretty uptight.
As far as what he says about "you'll become weaker and smaller if you workout every day"
well, I'm about to test that. I'm about to change up my workout schedule from 3 times per week to 6 times per week, with one day of rest. They'll be short, but very intense workouts. We'll see if I get smaller and weaker.
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Geez, dude seems pretty uptight.
I had the same impression. I replied I didn't want to upset him, only trying to understand.
anyway, it seems impossible to find an athlete that is at a good level, gaining good result, that is at zerocarb...
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I had the same impression. I replied I didn't want to upset him, only trying to understand.
anyway, it seems impossible to find an athlete that is at a good level, gaining good result, that is at zerocarb...
Mamo Wolde has already been mentioned as a low-carb athlete.
The Bear is always very aggressive, IMO. That's nearly always a bad sign, indicating a lack of solid evidence.
Still, I do wonder about the Eskimoes. It doesn't seem likely that they were unable to lift heavy weights or do continual heavy exercise on their zero-carb diets.
Re all-meat diet :- I heavily disagree with the notion that such a diet is unaffordable. I've actually found that decreasing the amounts of carbs in my diet has correspondingly reduced my appetite as I feel fuller on raw animal foods, with the result that my food-bills have been significantly reduced.
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Why do you guys even call it zero crab?
Eggs, liver, organs, and other animal foods contain carbs. It would make more sense to call it "Zero Plant Matter" or 1% plant matter since you can't exclude it completely in micro forms.
Maybe zero carb should be considered 95 to 99% animal foods.
Timber Wolves are considered carnivores, but they chew on grass and pine needles, so do tigers chew on grass. Why do they do that?? Does anyone know?
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I know cats and other carnivores feed on grass, but they don't use it for digestion. It's been pointed out that cats eat grass only when they suffer from gastric distress:-
http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/grass.htm
Maybe eating grass etc. just an attempt to vomit out a previous meal?
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People say Zero carb because it's easy, we all know there's carbs in eggs, shellfish, muscle meat and organs.
I think 'raw carnivore' sounds better and makes the most sense, even if you eat small amounts of plant matter.
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Mamo Wolde has already been mentioned as a low-carb athlete.
The Bear is always very aggressive, IMO. That's nearly always a bad sign, indicating a lack of solid evidence.
Still, I do wonder about the Eskimoes. It doesn't seem likely that they were unable to lift heavy weights or do continual heavy exercise on their zero-carb diets.
Re all-meat diet :- I heavily disagree with the notion that such a diet is unaffordable. I've actually found that decreasing the amounts of carbs in my diet has correspondingly reduced my appetite as I feel fuller on raw animal foods, with the result that my food-bills have been significantly reduced.
That's great, Tyler (in particular the last one ;) ;))
I agree with you: if someone's always aggressive it means that there's something wrong/insecure.
Re Eskimos: maybe they can carry on their day activity, but, when it comes to competition, what happens ?
Will do they perform better or worse than somebody else ?
Re Mamo Wolde: I perfectly agree with low carb sport pacticing, but I do disagree when that low goes to zero.
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Here's "the Bear"'s reply:
<snip>
3 - You say that you never get muscle soreness, but later you say that if you train hard you get doms. This is a contraddiction. What about a serious athlete who trains hard almost everydays ? I agree that one can train moderately with zero carb. But it's impossible to have big training volume with zero carb (recovery time will be too long)
Quite simple- if you train every day you will become weaker and smaller. NO 'serious' athlete trains more than two or three days/week. Your body does NOT grow from exercise, which actually damages it. Working too heavy or for too long causes enough damage to make you sore, the proper level does not. You only grow or improve in strength and fitness while resting and recovering from exercise.
Perhaps you should have asked about the soreness directly, as he does not respond to the "contradiction". He does claim that if you are working out properly, you won't get sore. This is complete nonsense, and it appears obvious the guy does not workout much. You must overload your muscles to get a training effect. If I do a different exercise that I am not accustomed to; or I lift weights for, say, chest, only once a week; I am going to get sore muscles from it. If I don't, then I am wasting my time by not lifting heavy enough or enough volume. I get a sore muscles when I work them over and above what they are used to. That said, muscles will adapt to the workout over time, which is why you must increase the load, frequency, and/or duration of the exercise plan to continue to see gains.
RE sleep: He is correct that muscles grow during sleep. However, he is dead wrong that exercise damages muscles in a negative way. You must damage the muscle through workouts in order for them to grow. He is incorrect that 2-3 days is enough workout for some athletes, but he may be correct that 6 days a week, over many weeks time, will actually be counterproductive, depending on what the workout consists of: Is it cycling 6 days a week, or is it lifting, cycling, swimming, etc? The latter will be better for the body ime. Many in the running world are now cutting down to 3-4 days a week training and seeing better gains. Repetitive stress injuries will result from constantly doing the same exercise over and over, every day. I think cross training to other types of workouts seasonally is very important for overall health and fitness.
Take my advice, don't believe what you hear about diet and biomechanics- it is all rubbish.
If you like meat and love fat, and can eat it rare and without salt, and want to eat the all meat way, and are happy doing that, then go for it. If not- then stay where you are.
I know it is the right way, but I really have no interest in arguing with anyone who can't accept what I have to say, and trust me, after 50 years eating this regime, there is no question whatsoever about what is real and what is nonsense. Science? All lies- told for money.
Spoken like a true wannabe guru. 'Trust me. Accept that since this seems to work for me, it will work for you.' IOW, turn off your mind and don't bother thinking or experimenting for yourself. That was enough for me to hear. The red flags are flying in my head when I read such things. No thanks.
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I think 'raw carnivore' sounds better and makes the most sense, even if you eat small amounts of plant matter.
That's cool. I can agree with that. My cat eats grass all the time. He is mostly raw grassfed meat mix, with some commercial stuff mixed in cuz he prefers that, and the ~ twice weekly mouse he kills.
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Satya, I agree 110% with you.
Really.
Now I'm sure I made no miscomprehensions on what the Bear wrote me.
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I do heavy weight lifting every other day,
running, walking, martial arts I do every day,
I'm starting "raw carnivore" even though apples and black walnuts are in season. I ate some raspberries this morning, I found them as I was walking to school, next year i am going to eat only native plants, which will limit my plant consumption alot, i still will be only eating plants I can gather myself,
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I do heavy weight lifting every other day,
running, walking, martial arts I do every day,
I'm starting "raw carnivore" even though apples and black walnuts are in season. I ate some raspberries this morning, I found them as I was walking to school, next year i am going to eat only native plants, which will limit my plant consumption alot, i still will be only eating plants I can gather myself,
I believe raw carnivore means only meat and fat from animals. No carbs more than what's muscle and organs.
Means glycogen provided ONLY by neoglucogenesis.
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I believe raw carnivore means only meat and fat from animals. No carbs more than what's muscle and organs.
Means glycogen provided ONLY by neoglucogenesis.
yes i am starting that today, evn though I did eat some raspberries, but im starting, for the winter, in the spring and summer and fall next year I will eat plants, but only native and wilds ones,
so each winter i will go carnivore
but go omnivore in summer, spring, and fall, still at omnivore during warmer months I will be at 95% animal foods
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Ok, Sully, your test will be a great deal for us.
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Reads like "The Bear" is a student of HIT training. I tried it for a while but it doesn't give me the good feeling that more traditional workouts do. But in terms of bodybuilding I do believe it's true that working out more than a few times a week is counterproductive because your muscles grow during the recovery process and this should be much more time than the tearing process. But with a sport like cycling your goal is not to build the largest muscles possible but to build balanced muscles in certain areas, improve your heart and lung aerobic capacity, work on proper technique etc. This is why I stopped HIT training, I changed my idea of what I wanted out of my body and although I'd like bigger muscles I don't want to be a bodybuilder or look like one.
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What you say is true, Kyle.
But I think the Bear doesn't follow a HIT approach to training, because, as he says, he rarely has DOMS, unless he pushes very hard (I understand that he doesn't push that much everytime...).
Do you practice any sport, or do you train for fitness/wellness/fun ?
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I replied the bear:
Hi Bear,
I didn't want to upset you or argue with you in some way, really.
I was only trying to understand whether what I know is wrong and why...
Anyway, do you know of some serious athlete that lives zero carb and gains good sport results ?
I mean an athlete of wich I can have a feedback on his diet/results...
Reading you essay on nutrition, it seems that the only non animal fat is olive oil and macadamia nut oil is it right ?
Thank you very much.
His answer:
You will not sucker me into this sort of useless debate. I don't give a flying fuck about whether any athlete eats anything. I know what is right, what works and what does not. If you don't feel good eating this way, and are not comfortable-- then don't.
Olive is not very good, and mac is only marginal. Good veg oil is coconut and palm. Best to stick to animal fats.
??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Quite aggressive.
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holy crap, how mean-sounding can you get??
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holy crap, how mean-sounding can you get??
Sorry, I didn't understand what you mean...
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Not "you" as in "YOU you", but a general "you".
Actually that probably just confused you further. I was referring to the Bear when I said that. He sounded angry.
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Do not judge a book by its cover but by its content. While I agree that The Bear is aggressive and rude, his knowledge seems to almost always be right on the money.
I think part of him really wants to help others but another part is tired of repeating the same things over and over. He has perhaps been attacked very often in the past due to his diet and is the way he is because of that. It is very frustrating to know something for certain and constantly be questioned, doubted, not being able to help others in the process.
Being the devil's advocate...but personally, I've learned alot from him and I'm happy he is alive to share with others his experience and knowledge.
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Do not judge a book by its cover but by its content. While I agree that The Bear is aggressive and rude, his knowledge seems to almost always be right on the money.
I think part of him really wants to help others but another part is tired of repeating the same things over and over. He has perhaps been attacked very often in the past due to his diet and is the way he is because of that. It is very frustrating to know something for certain and constantly be questioned, doubted, not being able to help others in the process.
Being the devil's advocate...but personally, I've learned alot from him and I'm happy he is alive to share with others his experience and knowledge.
According to me he is not convincing.
He focused on insulin as absolute evil (while it may help)
He only focuses on a portion on metabolism neglecting all the rest.
He starts from scientific base (ATP-ADP stuff an so on) but then says: forget about science, it's all rubbish...
Not to talk about non animal fats (in his essays he says olives and macadamia are good, then by mail he says they are not good while palm and coconut oil are)...
Not coherent, IMHO
Again, if glucose is useless, why our body derives it from protein if we don't introduce it with food ?
There's a lot of contraddiction and dark spots, up to me, in zero carb theory.
I believe chronical ketosis is not a healthy state.
Nor it can be appllied succesfully for and athlete. At least there are no examples/proofs as low carb has.
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Luigi,
You have not read fully his essays; otherwise, you would not say most the things you say. He doesn't believe insulin is the devil, just excess. He talks about keto-adaptation, not the same thing as ketosis which he condems. Also, he never EVER says that olives/olive oil are healthy and is consistent in his statements.
He also mentions that some tissues NEED glucose and that this is provided in normal circumstances by the conversion of glycerol.
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Maybe I misunderstood the bear's writings.
Anyway I at least follow his advice: if you're not convinced, just stay where you are or feel comfortable with.
I'm not convinced, moreover I can't afford a style that doesn't allow to go off the diet plan on occasions. Think would mean go through keto adatptation times and times agiain (everytimes it happens to eat some carbos, and it happens).
I do believe that a low carb (or very low carb, as I am presently doing) is much better for me.
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I respect that Luigi. To each their own and in the end, what works best for you is what counts. If you feel good, then that's all that matters. :)
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I thought there was much more information than the essay...not much to go on
Ok agree or disagree he is one interesting fellow who lives by his own convictions. I admire that. It's sounds like he has always been gruff even pre meat eating diet.
His autobiography would be quite a read!
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Ok, Sully, your test will be a great deal for us.
Zero carb is becoming harder and harder. I'm not sure if I'll continue. Its only been about 4 days. I had periods of low energy. i don't know how long it takes to adapt to zero carb, but I can't wait months and train sluggishly. I can only afford 1 pound of pasture raised meat a day. That is not enough to satisfy me when training. I can get 2 pounds of low quality meat. I don't want to have to survive on low quality meat through the winter. I plan on doing it some time in the distant future when I can afford high quality animal foods.
Sorry Luigi. :(
Ahhh, this apple is good... :)
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Zero carb is becoming harder and harder. I'm not sure if I'll continue. Its only been about 4 days. I had periods of low energy. i don't know how long it takes to adapt to zero carb, but I can't wait months and train sluggishly. I can only afford 1 pound of pasture raised meat a day. That is not enough to satisfy me when training. I can get 2 pounds of low quality meat. I don't want to have to survive on low quality meat through the winter. I plan on doing it some time in the distant future when I can afford high quality animal foods.
Sorry Luigi. :(
Ahhh, this apple is good... :)
Nevermind Sully,
just do what you feel better ;) ;) ;)
This is as I expected it to be.
Not affordable by an athletic person. The price to pay (low energy, inability to train, ....) during adaptation, admitting it occurs, is too high. Moreover, this adaptation may last for ever (or appear again and again) because of occasions l) l)
I'm reading Lex journal.
At this moment my thought is: our body need some glucose (undeniable fact), there's no reason to force it to get it from protein (via neoglucogenesis), it's more convenient to get it directly from carbos.
Of course the goal now is to tune the intake to the real need.
Of course the best fuel if fat and I am working toward the maximization of fat metabolism.
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I'm not convinced, moreover I can't afford a style that doesn't allow to go off the diet plan on occasions. Think would mean go through keto adatptation times and times agiain (everytimes it happens to eat some carbos, and it happens).
I do believe that a low carb (or very low carb, as I am presently doing) is much better for me.
Agreed. If I have to go through days weeks or maybe even a month or more of weakness and lethargy to re-adapt to ketogenic metabolism every time I party with my friends and drink a few beers then count me out. Probably one night of carbs wouldn't do it, but then again I wonder how you would digest carbs if you're ketogenically adapted. Lex might know, I imagine it would feel very good to consume a high carb meal after being ketogenically adapted, much like eating only protein and fat would feel before adaptation.
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I imagine it would feel very good to consume a high carb meal after being ketogenically adapted, much like eating only protein and fat would feel before adaptation.
I think you meant wouldn't feel...
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Ya that's what I meant to write. Anyone here ever do that?
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At this moment my thought is: our body need some glucose (undeniable fact), there's no reason to force it to get it from protein (via neoglucogenesis), it's more convenient to get it directly from carbos.
One relevant question is if you are forcing the body to make glucose from protein by depriving it of dietary carbohydrates or if it's going to convert the same percentage of protein into glucose anyway, without regard for dietary carbo intake.
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One relevant question is if you are forcing the body to make glucose from protein by depriving it of dietary carbohydrates or if it's going to convert the same percentage of protein into glucose anyway, without regard for dietary carbo intake.
This is an interesting matter. I did think about.
I assume the "spend less, gain more" (I don't know if it's called like this in english -\ -\) rule as a universal rule in nature and in our body as well. So, if I take some glucose in, why should my body spend energy to produce it ?
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This is an interesting matter. I did think about.
I assume the "spend less, gain more" (I don't know if it's called like this in english -\ -\) rule as a universal rule in nature and in our body as well. So, if I take some glucose in, why should my body spend energy to produce it ?
It could just be that the enzymes are always there in the system to catch and convert a certain amount of protein to glucose. Or the expression of the genes building those enzymes could be dependent on the amount of glucose in the blood. Or something else entirely, but I don't think it's right to assume the body will "know" that it doesn't have to convert protein as if it has a brain of it's own.
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but I don't think it's right to assume the body will "know" that it doesn't have to convert protein as if it has a brain of it's own.
Right Kyle, you explained better what I ment.
The baseline is, in energy sparing terms: why build enzymes to convert protein to glucose is there's still glucose in the blood ?
IMHO
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My answer to that question is that the production of these enzymes is unregulated by blood glucose and is simply constant, which then leads to the idea that the diet humans evolved their current gene expression on was a very low carb one that necessitated the protein to glucose conversion to a point where any regulation on that expression was lost.
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Seems to hae sens, Kyle, but for what I know gluconeogenesys is triggered by low glucose blood level.
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That certainly makes more sense that it would be regulated by blood glucose but most of what I've read suggested that it was *fairly* constant.
I have a problem understanding how the body can just completely discard certain enzymes, such as the ones needed to digest ketones, and have to go through such a long adaptation period in order to digest that fuel. Even if you're getting adequate carbs to fuel your body it still would be advantageous to harvest the energy from ketones rather than peeing them out don't you think?
Same thing with glucose. Even if you're not consuming any glucose your body will make some from protein, thus the enzymes to metabolize glucose should be at least partially conserved.
But then again in my microbiology class I learned about the lactose digesting genes in E. coli and the moral of the story there was that the organism will not produce enzymes to digest a certain food molecule if there is an abundance of a more efficiently digesting food molecule around. This would suggest that glucose is more efficient than fat for fuel since if the body is presented with both in abundance it will express glucose digestion and not ketone digestion.
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It could be that the body chooses the more efficient fuel, or it could be that the body wants to rid itself of the more damaging and troublesome fuel first. For example, if the body is fed large amounts of fat, carbohydrates and alcohol it will process the alcohol for energy first, thus getting it out of the system. It is conceivable, though not proven, that carbohydrates are processed second in that line because they are less damaging than alcohol but worse for the body than fats.
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For what I know glucose is more efficient in energy imbalance terms.
Even if you have adapted to fill your energy requirements with ketones, glucose is made from protein because it is the only brain fuel.
IMHO
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It used to be thought that the brain ran exclusively on glucose, but Barry Groves claims that this study shows that assumption to be erroneous and that the brain is just a s capable of running on FFA's as any other cells. I have not read the study myself.
Takenaka T, et al. Fatty acids as an energy source for the operation of axoplasmic transport. Brain Res 2003; 972: 38-43
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Takenaka T, et al. Fatty acids as an energy source for the operation of axoplasmic transport. Brain Res 2003; 972: 38-43
It could be very iteresting to read this study...
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Yesterday I ate my usual way:
- breakfast: 3 eggs + protein powder + 4 teaspoons of raw grinded coconut, a pear and a glass of veg juice and 25 g of raw butter
- lunch: a dish with 2 artichokes, some (little) salad and 5 very thin slices of roast beef with olive oil
- dinner: a little fennel (only the inner part), lard and some 500 g of beef
- after dinner: half a glass of wine
I didn't train.
Today I woke up and measured my pee pH (about 6.5) and ketones (none).
I have 2 hypothesis:
A - those little carbs where enough as not to kick in gluconeogenesys (no ketones produced)
B - since I am on low carb for a quite long period, I somehow "adapted" and used all the ketones produced (if we assume that, as Kyle suggests, some gluconeogesys and ketones production always occurs).
What's your opinion ?
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AFAIK gluconeogenesis has nothing to do with the amount of ketones produced. The end result of that process is glucose and you would need to be measuring your blood glucose levels to learn anything about that. Take a look through Lex's well documented journal and you will see evidence of both his producing ketones at the same time as he is creating glucose from protein.
Lex produced many more ketones 80% fat routine than on his 65% fat routine. It's impossible to estimate from the diet you've listed what the total amount of fat was that you consumed or what percent of your calories it was. As I see it, it remains possible that you either a) are well adapted to using ketones for fuel and utilized all of the small amount that you created or b) consumed enough carbs that no ketones were created at all. I realize that these are substantially similar to your options, but they do not mention gluconeogenesis. I suspect, but by am no means certain, that you could discriminate between the two options by increasing your fat consumption while leaving the carb intake the same and keeping the protein content similar or slightly reduced. If option A is accurate and you increase fat enough then you should see an increase in urinary ketones as more are created than you utilize. If B is correct then you should not see any increase in ketones at all.
As I said, I'm not certain that the above scenarios accurately describe what would take place and why, but it is consistent with my current understanding of the biochemistry involved.
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The brain can and does run on ketones, more efficiently, might I add. It cannot run on fatty acids because they are unable to cross the blood-brain barrier.
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How many carbs would you eat before/after a hard 2 hour long race Igi?
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Yes, I rode lex journal and made some consideration, indeed I realized that I was wrong or misunderstood something...
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How many carbs would you eat before/after a hard 2 hour long race Igi?
Sorry Andrew, but I'm not a good quantifier, I mosly do it empyrical and by instinct...
Anyway, I can tell you that:
1) It modstly depends on how adapted you are on running on fats (I recently knew a cyclists that needs about 100 g of carbs per hour, he is a very tough rider and aranks very well)
2) It depends on what exertion level you are going to do it (I'm not expert in running races, better on bike's)
3) Are you still doing zerocarb ?
4) What are your past experiences on carbo load/glycogen restore ?
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If I were you, Andrew, I would start carbo load 1 or 2 day before the event by introducing potoes and/or rice (or whatever carbo food you feel comfortable with). The time depending on your ability to metabolise corbos (it may take 2 day with small portions or 1 day with grater portions).
This is in order to assure you glycogen stores are full.
Be sure to be weel hydrated before the event start.
During the event you may use snacks, sport foods or simply fruits (I feel good with bananas) and drink (If the weatheer is very hot, you may put some salt in you drink in order to avoid hyponatremia).
After the event I use Friel/Cordains approach:
priority is recovery (repleniment of glycogen stores and rebuild of damaged muscle)
Immediately after (30 minutes window): easy digestable sources of glucose (honey is great, fruits, or whatever you like), and protein (or better amminoacids). Carbo to protein ratio is 4:1. The key here is to ingest nutrients that has not to be processed by the digestive system, not to stress the body anymore.
Then, the glycogen replenish takes place for a time span that is as long as the race duration (2 hors window for a 2 hour race) you can keep on eating carbs within your meals.
This is what I believe is right to manage races and hard workouts, this is what I (and others) do.
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If I were you, Andrew, I would start carbo load 1 or 2 day before the event by introducing potoes and/or rice (or whatever carbo food you feel comfortable with). The time depending on your ability to metabolise corbos (it may take 2 day with small portions or 1 day with grater portions).
This is in order to assure you glycogen stores are full.
Be sure to be weel hydrated before the event start.
During the event you may use snacks, sport foods or simply fruits (I feel good with bananas) and drink (If the weatheer is very hot, you may put some salt in you drink in order to avoid hyponatremia).
After the event I use Friel/Cordains approach:
priority is recovery (repleniment of glycogen stores and rebuild of damaged muscle)
Immediately after (30 minutes window): easy digestable sources of glucose (honey is great, fruits, or whatever you like), and protein (or better amminoacids). Carbo to protein ratio is 4:1. The key here is to ingest nutrients that has not to be processed by the digestive system, not to stress the body anymore.
Then, the glycogen replenish takes place for a time span that is as long as the race duration (2 hors window for a 2 hour race) you can keep on eating carbs within your meals.
This is what I believe is right to manage races and hard workouts, this is what I (and others) do.
Thanks.I will try 100 grams a day for 2 days before and recover with carbs. I'll take your advice and see how I go.
Ok well I've already run the race on zero carb and I was running a a high anaerobic level for 1 hour and 50 minutes. The race was incredibly tough. The winner is an international professional athlete did 14km in 75 minutes which goes to show how tough the course was.
I like the Idea of being able to run this type of event aerobically but wonder if that is ever possible or how long it would take to be able to do this. To run this event aerobically it would of taken me 3+ hours!
I felt terrible during the race and craved carbs about half way through. I recovered very badly and could not think for about 20 minutes after the event. My brain had zero energy.
I will start to carbo load next time before I do a hard session. But I would also like to be able to run on fatty acids http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp (http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp)...I'm torn and will have to try both.
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Why don't you get in touch with "the bear"; he lives in Australia!
the-bear@thebear.org
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Thanks.I will try 100 grams a day for 2 days before and recover with carbs. I'll take your advice and see how I go.
Ok well I've already run the race on zero carb and I was running a a high anaerobic level for 1 hour and 50 minutes. The race was incredibly tough. The winner is an international professional athlete did 14km in 75 minutes which goes to show how tough the course was.
I like the Idea of being able to run this type of event aerobically but wonder if that is ever possible or how long it would take to be able to do this. To run this event aerobically it would of taken me 3+ hours!
I felt terrible during the race and craved carbs about half way through. I recovered very badly and could not think for about 20 minutes after the event. My brain had zero energy.
I will start to carbo load next time before I do a hard session. But I would also like to be able to run on fatty acids http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp (http://www.markallenonline.com/heartrate.asp)...I'm torn and will have to try both.
Thank you very very much for this testimonial, Andrew.
This is the last piece of the puzzle: the proof that, even if one is ketoadapted (if my memory is good you are) it is impossible to practice strenuous physical activity (and a good recovery) on zerocarb.
I'm really sorry for all of the pure carnivores, but for people having athletic ambitions zerocarb is unpracticable. And Andrew's experience is another proof.
According to me even very low carb, without due recherge, is like a suicide when it comes to heavy physical activity.
Just to let you know, last Thursday, in the gym, I felt very good, I made my workout heavy workout, ùi felt good during it and it seemed like I could push it more, but I didn't...
I made no recharge after wo, and kept on very low carbing...
Get what...
I still didn't recover, I have such a pain in my legs that barely can walk, I look like a paralytic.
Never happened in this way with recharges.
Re the bear:
I tried to contact him but....
you can make you conclusions reading his reply, wich I posted.
Anyway...
Good luck for the race !!! ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Why don't you get in touch with "the bear"; he lives in Australia!
the-bear@thebear.org
'The bear' doesn't do strenuous non paleo exercise and I don't feel like being insulted either...
I would like to run on fatty acids to be honest as it makes sense but I'm not sure I will ever be able to do it. You have to run/cycle so slowly to keep in your aerobic zone that I may as well just walk. Supposedly with training you can run on fatty acids but an event which I competed in on the weekend my heart rate would of been between 180-210+ bpm
Halfway through the race my stomach was rumbling and I wanted food (even though I was running my heart out) this tells me I needed some quick fuel to resupply glycogen to my muscles. All tho pro's took on carbs at around this point but I kept running.
Hey Igi I think there are a few zero carb athletes on 'Charles's' forum. I wonder how they go? I love the idea of competing well on just meat and fat but I see it's practical to take on carbs during a long race.
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'The bear' doesn't do strenuous non paleo exercise and I don't feel like being insulted either...
I would like to run on fatty acids to be honest as it makes sense but I'm not sure I will ever be able to do it. You have to run/cycle so slowly to keep in your aerobic zone that I may as well just walk. Supposedly with training you can run on fatty acids but an event which I competed in on the weekend my heart rate would of been between 180-210+ bpm
Halfway through the race my stomach was rumbling and I wanted food (even though I was running my heart out) this tells me I needed some quick fuel to resupply glycogen to my muscles. All tho pro's took on carbs at around this point but I kept running.
Hey Igi I think there are a few zero carb athletes on 'Charles's' forum. I wonder how they go? I love the idea of competing well on just meat and fat but I see it's practical to take on carbs during a long race.
I believe that race/train strenuously for a long duration only on fats is pure utopy.
Those situation are non physiological, so they have to be treated accordingly.
Andrew, I don't know "Charles's forum" can you post a link ?
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http://www.zerocarbage.com/ (http://www.zerocarbage.com/)
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I took a look at the forum/blog.
Weel, in my opinion the situation is as usual: Charles as well, seems to train 1 every 3-4 days.
Another proof that on ZC recovery is so longer.
Again, I believe that to train consistently some carbs are needed, the amount depending on training volume.
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I took a look at the forum/blog.
Weel, in my opinion the situation is as usual: Charles as well, seems to train 1 every 3-4 days.
Another proof that on ZC recovery is so longer.
Again, I believe that to train consistently some carbs are needed, the amount depending on training volume.
While Charles does only run twice per week, he also lifts weights twice per week. He does acknowledge more recovery time is required, but he also firmly believes that running twice per week is all that is necessary. Training smarter, not harder. Charles always finishes in the top 10-15% in his races. And he usually runs in races that have several thousand runners. Not bad, I'd say.
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While Charles does only run twice per week, he also lifts weights twice per week. He does acknowledge more recovery time is required, but he also firmly believes that running twice per week is all that is necessary. Training smarter, not harder. Charles always finishes in the top 10-15% in his races. And he usually runs in races that have several thousand runners. Not bad, I'd say.
What about an athlete in a sport like wrestling, very anaerobic? Has anyone ever tried something like that on zero carb? My experience has been that even highly trained athletes fatigue (aerobically) more in 5 or 10 minutes of something like that than hours of running or biking, and you're muscles start to weaken (anaerobically) in a matter of less than a minute if you're constantly pushing against an immovable object (wrestling).
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What about an athlete in a sport like wrestling, very anaerobic? Has anyone ever tried something like that on zero carb? My experience has been that even highly trained athletes fatigue (aerobically) more in 5 or 10 minutes of something like that than hours of running or biking, and you're muscles start to weaken (anaerobically) in a matter of less than a minute if you're constantly pushing against an immovable object (wrestling).
Like isometrics?
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I did almost zero carbs for 4-6 weeks. No more than 5-15 grams a day, which is basically a few strawberries and maybe a small tomato. Some days I did no carbs at all. I lift 3-5 days a week, sprints usually once a week, and I play D-line in IM football. When I do any type of running I make sure to punctuate at regular intervals with anaerobic exercise.
It worked out okay at first. I sort of started right after a brutal work-out. The next couple days I was constantly hungy, eating (per day) 20-25 eggs, at least 2 lbs of beef, some coconut-oil, and just a very few carbs. I gained tremendously in a short 3 days. The results propelled me to give zero carb a try.
But after a couple weeks I started to notice some negative changes. First off, my breath began to smell bad. Then I noticed I wasn't gaining really anymore in the gym, and in fact, tended to be losing strength and began to shorten my workouts. After a few weeks my stomach felt like it was beginning to 'back up', though I was not yet in pain.
I gave work-outs a rest for a few days, but came home on day 3 feeling terrible. No fever (yet) but my whole digestive system felt clogged and body achy. I had the biggest craving for sugars, so I ate alot of raw honey, rasperries, coconut oil, and a few eggs. I immediately began to feel better (alot like the feeling after a good meal after a big workout). I was getting sleepy, and ultimately had fever most of the night. I had some diahhrea, and woke up 3 times to use the crapper, each time feeling better. By morning I felt MUCH better. No more fever, and no more diahhrea, though the bowl issues did take a couple weeks to completely clear up. I still was on very low carb for the next 2 weeks, tho not quite as low, and felt better but still not tip top.
Earlier I mentioned bad breath. About a week after that night, I went to the dentist (regular checkup), and for the first time in my life, I had a cavity. In fact, I had 3 black spots on my back molars.
Near the end of all this, I read a book [The Schwarzbein Principle II] which analyzes diet almost solely from the perspective of the endocrine(glandular) system. While I disagree w/ much of what she recoommends (alot isn't paleo based), she convinced me that I needed more carbs. I started eating a bell pepper/tomato/mushroom/peppers/spinach w/ my daily 1.5-2 lb of beef, some papaya/berries/coconut water/etc. Immediately my breath got better, and despite what the dentist said is possible, the 3 black spots on my teeth began to shrink. I only have 1 left, and it is rather small.
I probably eat now between 70-120 grams of carbs/day. I most definitely will eat a papaya or berries before a workout, and after most 2 hour lifting sessions (which I can regularly do nowadays) I will drink a strawberry/raw egg/honey/goats milk shake for recovery. I believe my body is probably getting most of its energy from fats, but using carbs during strenuous exercise.
I'm all about going with what works, and for myself, I have proven that zero carbs doesn't work. Also, we have genetics to consider. If you are Inuit or Northern European, it is likely you might be able to get away with fewer carbs. If your heritage is from more southern latitudes (like the 1/2 Mexican in me), the simple fact is berries taste good, coconut water tastes good, fruit/herbs taste good. We would definitely have eaten them during our evolutionary history, in addition to bugs which can contain quite a few carbs. As an aside, I would imagine women to get along better with a few more carbs than men, as they would likely have been the 'gatherers' eating more foraging type foods - just a thought.
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has anyone seen the persistence hunting video that David Attenburough narrated?
There is hunter gatherers in Africa deserts that do persistence hunting. They find a herd, then pick out the one with the biggest antlers/horns, because it will tire faster. Then they follow it in a persistence hunt. Soon they send off there fastest runner by himself. He is equipped with a spear on his back, and a container filled with water to rehydrate. He follows it for a long time with a slow jog. The animal tries to rest under trees for shade because of the intense heat of the desert. But soon has to run again because the man follows. The mans ability to sweat becomes handy.The man, being bipedal is more suited for endurance running, than the four legged animal. Soon the animal collapses due to exhaustion. He then spears it, and does a little ceremony with sand.
It would be interesting to see exactly what these people consume. I think it varies from mostly plants, to mostly animal foods. In the dry season when nuts run out, meat becomes the most important food.
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Like isometrics?
No, like wrestling. Actually my sports are Brazilian jiu jit su and mixed martial arts but most people aren't too familiar with them.
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While Charles does only run twice per week, he also lifts weights twice per week. He does acknowledge more recovery time is required, but he also firmly believes that running twice per week is all that is necessary. Training smarter, not harder. Charles always finishes in the top 10-15% in his races. And he usually runs in races that have several thousand runners. Not bad, I'd say.
In the races I got involved so far I got similar results (10-15% in the rank). I try to train smart as well. So the difficult management of a zero carb (for different reasons) keeps me off.
I did almost zero carbs for 4-6 weeks. No more than 5-15 grams a day, which is basically a few strawberries and maybe a small tomato. Some days I did no carbs at all. I lift 3-5 days a week, sprints usually once a week, and I play D-line in IM football. When I do any type of running I make sure to punctuate at regular intervals with anaerobic exercise.
It worked out okay at first. I sort of started right after a brutal work-out. The next couple days I was constantly hungy, eating (per day) 20-25 eggs, at least 2 lbs of beef, some coconut-oil, and just a very few carbs. I gained tremendously in a short 3 days. The results propelled me to give zero carb a try.
But after a couple weeks I started to notice some negative changes. First off, my breath began to smell bad. Then I noticed I wasn't gaining really anymore in the gym, and in fact, tended to be losing strength and began to shorten my workouts. After a few weeks my stomach felt like it was beginning to 'back up', though I was not yet in pain.
I gave work-outs a rest for a few days, but came home on day 3 feeling terrible. No fever (yet) but my whole digestive system felt clogged and body achy. I had the biggest craving for sugars, so I ate alot of raw honey, rasperries, coconut oil, and a few eggs. I immediately began to feel better (alot like the feeling after a good meal after a big workout). I was getting sleepy, and ultimately had fever most of the night. I had some diahhrea, and woke up 3 times to use the crapper, each time feeling better. By morning I felt MUCH better. No more fever, and no more diahhrea, though the bowl issues did take a couple weeks to completely clear up. I still was on very low carb for the next 2 weeks, tho not quite as low, and felt better but still not tip top.
Earlier I mentioned bad breath. About a week after that night, I went to the dentist (regular checkup), and for the first time in my life, I had a cavity. In fact, I had 3 black spots on my back molars.
Near the end of all this, I read a book [The Schwarzbein Principle II] which analyzes diet almost solely from the perspective of the endocrine(glandular) system. While I disagree w/ much of what she recoommends (alot isn't paleo based), she convinced me that I needed more carbs. I started eating a bell pepper/tomato/mushroom/peppers/spinach w/ my daily 1.5-2 lb of beef, some papaya/berries/coconut water/etc. Immediately my breath got better, and despite what the dentist said is possible, the 3 black spots on my teeth began to shrink. I only have 1 left, and it is rather small.
I probably eat now between 70-120 grams of carbs/day. I most definitely will eat a papaya or berries before a workout, and after most 2 hour lifting sessions (which I can regularly do nowadays) I will drink a strawberry/raw egg/honey/goats milk shake for recovery. I believe my body is probably getting most of its energy from fats, but using carbs during strenuous exercise.
I'm all about going with what works, and for myself, I have proven that zero carbs doesn't work. Also, we have genetics to consider. If you are Inuit or Northern European, it is likely you might be able to get away with fewer carbs. If your heritage is from more southern latitudes (like the 1/2 Mexican in me), the simple fact is berries taste good, coconut water tastes good, fruit/herbs taste good. We would definitely have eaten them during our evolutionary history, in addition to bugs which can contain quite a few carbs. As an aside, I would imagine women to get along better with a few more carbs than men, as they would likely have been the 'gatherers' eating more foraging type foods - just a thought.
Similar result keeping carb below a certain level, so I made the same conclusions as guittarman. As far as I know my descendance is from italian farmers.
Kyle, I guess the reason muscles fatigue quicker anaerobically is that after ATP depletion, energy is needed to resithetise it.
Resithesys may happen aerobically (slower, requires oxygen to burn fat) o anaerobically (faster, oxygen not required). Performing anaerobically we quick fall in oxygen debt, and that kiks anaerobical glucose burning. But glucose/glycogen stores are limeted, that's why we stop earlier.
That's what I know and so far what I experienced to be true.
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I know about that, my question is that would a low carb diet (or no carb) cause you to be able to rebuild your glucose stores faster, or perhaps use a different fuel altogether, or are we looking at a situation where low carb gives you good long term energy but not short anaerobic energy as good as moderate to high carbs? It seems like most agree that on low carb the anaerobic capacity goes down and aerobic capacity goes up, and this goes along with the idea of persistence hunters chasing down prey and eating only animals.
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There are actually some runners here in Sweden who run long distance races... like a double marathon in the woods, mainly on fats and protein. I don´t think they stick to zero carb between races, but they eat mainly fat and protein. I think they actually eat pemmican during the race.
I have been zero carb during times when I have gone for windsurfing. It feels like i have had i bit more stamina. But maybe the recovery have been a bit worse.
But i think we are losing one important fact here.. It´s a lot easier to get a lot of energy from fat than from carbs... If you gonna get 2000kcal extra from carbs thats like 500grams of carbs -thats kind of hard to eat - not to mention the health effects. If its from fat thats like 220g - thats really easy to eat and you don´t feel like u are smashed to the walls afterwards.
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I do not really know how to count really how much carbs but when there are times I feel low, I know I'm too low on carbs so I eat an organic fruit and I feel instantly better.
Some say it must be the thinking job that I do. I'm a web developer / network administrator.