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Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: Gatsuri on October 14, 2018, 05:15:36 pm

Title: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: Gatsuri on October 14, 2018, 05:15:36 pm
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has experience having bad symptoms (not detox but just negative) from A1 dairy but are completely fine with A2 dairy ?
From my experience (raw) dairy gives me tendency for harder stools, wondering if the A2 would make any difference, if not I am going to avoid all types of dairy.

It seems strange to me how raw dairy would cause problems being from European descent as I would think our ancestors would have consumed dairy regularly.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 14, 2018, 05:54:51 pm

I experimented with this A1/A2 nonsense and found it dead wrong. 5% of people with European descent are estimated at having lactose-intolerance. There is also casein-intolerance and galactose-intolerance. Oh, and a long length of time on a diet does NOT at all imply an adaptation to it at all. Pandas have been eating bamboos for 5 million years but they still are designed to be primarily carnivorous.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: Gatsuri on October 15, 2018, 04:38:40 pm
Yeah I see, probably not even worth trying for myself. Those that can handle dairy are lucky, adds some nice variety..
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 16, 2018, 04:29:48 am
Always make up ur own mind when it comes to certain foods. What´s not good for others might be beneficial for u. From my own perspective I could see a big difference between A1 and A2. I drank around a liter of A1 Holstein/Friesian milk which were commercial fed and I drank a lot more of Jersey Cows which are supposed to have a higher A2 trait. I had no issues with the Jerseys, also commercial fed, but I had an immediate negative response to the Holstein/Friesian, even though the Friesian were fed MUCH more pasture than the Jerseys (the Jerseys were ONLY fed with GMO pellets which I found out after seeing the feed label by coincidence some months later).

I am from european descent and I did a lot of research when it comes to A1/A2, and it´s far from a 'hoax'. If you research more about this you will understand. Certainly you might be one of these few people which cannot digest any dairy at all, but that can be doubtful. Do you know what their feed is, especially in winter, do you know what treatment the cows get when being ill, do you know the living conditions of the cows, do you know if they still have horns, do you know what trait they have? The only way to get proper raw milk is to speak to the farmer, inspect the animals, see the living conditions, see if they are certified organic, check for the horns and taste a bit of the milk. Most commercial dairy cows nowadays are of A1 descent. However, in certain countries there are still a lot of indigenous breeds, such as the Pinzgauer or Fleckvieh in Austria or the Modicana in Sicily, and I did not have any issues beside the raw butter, which is most probably due to the high saturated fat content. So I would say it also depends where you live and what cattle they use. Some countries use a lot of the shitty A1 breeds which can give you problems, regardless if raw or not.

Therefore, if you want raw milk there are certains things to consider. 1. Always opt for Organic and pasture. 2. Try Goat or Sheep milk if you can´t handle cows milk 3. Go for indigenous breeds rather than commercial cattle. It can be hard to find a farmer which does not have A1 cows, but they exist. So only if you have checked ALL these things, and you still have bad symptoms (not related to detox), only then you can clearly verify that any kind of mammalian milk, except mothers milk, is not good for you, regardless what anybody says. If milk would be so harmful and shitty, it would have not been drank for thousands of years by so many ancient cultures and tribes. So, whatever is in commercial and even raw milk nowadays, is NOT what we are supposed to indigest to heal certain conditions. And raw milk can heal, has nothing to do with just being a variety or a 'nice' addition to your diet, it can help you a lot, or it can harm you if you get the wrong type of milk, or if you are in these apparently 5 percent. But people nowadays just don´t grasp the true meaning of proper raw milk. As with many other things. And that truly pisses me off. It´s like a Vegan saying Animal Products make you sick and give you cancer, even though they have absolutely no clue what they are talking about.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: Gatsuri on October 16, 2018, 05:14:04 am
It's not that I don't want to experiment further but the symptoms are way too bad digestion wise with the A1 raw milk/ raw cheese/ and even raw butter I am finding, those things just make my stools hard as rock. And these things were already difficult to find organic and raw. Probably goat dairy would be easiest to find but like I said the risk of bad symptoms would just give me stress while I am already feeling the best I have ever felt on my current diet without dairy. I do recognize of course that dairy has a lot of good nutrition if you are able to digest that stuff.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 16, 2018, 05:56:47 am
In that case, if you can´t find a proper source leave it out. No point of eating someting that makes you feel bad. If you can´t get the real deal don´t touch it, otherwise it can aggregate your symptoms.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: Gatsuri on October 16, 2018, 06:49:05 pm
Yeah, still interested in reading about the A1/A2 though, 'devil in the milk' seems to be a book that discusses it which I might check out

I don't think 'lactose intolerance' can be used as an argument though for raw milk, from what I understand the enzyme lactase should digest it for you in raw milk.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 17, 2018, 03:46:06 am
not correct regarding the lactase digesting it for you.  Sufficient amounts of lactase are produced in the large intestine by lactose feeding bacteria there creating lactase, which is then shuttled to the liver to then aid in digestion in the stomach and small intestine.  I wouldn't swear to this, but have read it from some what of an authority, and not AV. 
  Also if disciplined, one can build up those lactose digesting bacteria over time.  Supposedly we all have some small amount that can be induced to multiply.  But this to me is questionable due to the use of antibiotics.  However, one can repopulate the large intestine with HUMAN strains of probiotics and then grow their populations over time by regular small and increasing amounts of 'milk food'. 
   Culturing HUMAN stains of probiotics outside the body grown on whey and then rectally implanting a pint of the solution will provide the greatest chance of creating a living growing strain in the large bowel.   This I did several times when I had my own goats and lived primarily on their milk.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: Gatsuri on October 17, 2018, 04:17:36 am
Hmmm well raw (animal) foods digest better due to the enzymes not being destroyed so I don't see why it would not apply to milk ?

I might have found a goat farm 30 mins ride, if I decide to try the raw goat milk I will update how it went

Checked some forums whereby mothers had success giving their kids A2 goat milk for example for fixing the constipation in their toddlers (when they were on cow milk) so there are for sure success stories
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 17, 2018, 05:14:30 am
@van

This is very interesting. Can you please briefly explain how you can culture human strains of probiotics?  Also, what whey do you use? Should it be live whey from lets say kefir or would store bought powdered whey work as well? And to implant the solution of a pint, you use an enema, or how do you insert it? Suppositories would be too small unless you use many?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 17, 2018, 01:40:22 pm
sure.  You want to make sure the probiotics you buy are human strains,, those that naturally attach and reproduce within the human colon.   Then yes, dried whey, not whey powder, for that is lactose removed,  with added water and probiotic kept at 100 f will double the count of bacteria every 10 to 20 minutes once they start reproducing.  In a capsule they are dormant, but when exposed to the correct lactose medium and warmth they will begin to multiply.  You can do the math, doubling every 20 minutes for a day of culturing ( you to use/stop culturing before it turns very acidic)  and the numbers are HUGE, and they're living, and they don't have to pass through the acid stomach and alkaline small intestine.    The trick is also to feed them from the top, meaning orally either with whey powder or milk or whey from making cheese.  If kefir whey is used make sure it hasn't cultured too long for the lactose then would have been converted to lactic acid and thus not be a sugar form the bacteria need.  An enema bag can be used.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: Gatsuri on October 19, 2018, 03:46:04 pm
Update experimentation with raw goat milk: I did have my hopes up and I'm sure the A2 can make the difference for a lot of people and it is worth trying but for me personally I should stay away from dairy.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 19, 2018, 11:47:13 pm
I could only drink goat milk when my goats were off grain,, well, I sprouted their grain seven days and that worked fine.  they only got grain while being milked.  Most goats in milk production get grain like cows to increase milk production.   I can't emphasize enough how valuable or important it is that goats and cows only eat green grasses, ( and a host of other plants for goats)  if you want to drink their milk.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: FRANCIS HOWARD BOND on October 20, 2018, 12:28:22 am
Can anyone explain what categories A1 and A2 stand for?    Sorry but I have not heard of these.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 20, 2018, 02:48:38 am
@Francis. https://www.authoritydiet.com/a1-vs-a2-cows-milk-what-difference-benefits-nutrition/ and https://keithwoodford.wordpress.com/ Keith Woodford is the Guy that wrote the Book "Devil in the Milk: Illness, Health and Politics : A1 and A2 Milk". He has a own section on the right top side regarding A1 and A2.

@van thanks for the explanation. You initially said to implant them rectally, then you mention orally. So should it be both ways? And if for example somebody would be totally lactose intolerant and "allergic" to dairy, with this method you could possibly digest dairy again? I assume you did that because you could not digest the milk from your goats?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 20, 2018, 03:38:44 am
 As for orally, you can begin to feed the bacteria present in the bowel by ingesting lactose/whey/milk by increasingly small amounts so that lactase is produced in the bowel and then shuttled to the stomach to digest lactose in milk.   
   about 27 years ago I had some sort of bowel irritation.   I went to a colon therapist who after doing a colonic,  then implanted human strains of probiotic and whey.  I took his method to the next step and cultured the same bacteria and whey, thus spawning billions and billions of more bacteria than simply inserting the raw ingredients.  It healed my bowel lining quite well.  It was not long after I bought my first two goats, and continued my experiments with kefirs of various origins and making raw yogurts with certain strains of human probiotics.  It became my hobby or passion for some time.
  I doubt I have any if very little of those strains living in my colon now, as I for some years enjoy a carnivorous diet devoid of any sugars which are needed to sustain those sugar based bacteria implanted for lactose consumption.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 27, 2018, 03:42:10 am
I did some research regarding the Human strain probiotics that you mentioned and things are pretty vague and blurred there. It´s a bit hard to focus on that word since it doesn´t not seem to have much of a meaning nowadays.

https://www.thefinchleyclinic.com/shop/human-strain-probiotics-important-b-544.html
https://www.optibacprobiotics.co.uk/learning-lab/blog/what-are-human-strains
https://www.crohns.net/blog/post/what-are-human-strain-probiotics

So when you search for human strains probiotics its hard to verify if they are the real deal. Quite some have additives that do not seem to be of best quality. I think its important to get one that a) has as little additives as possible b) have a lot of different type of strains c) as you mentioned already, multiplying them and making them “stick” in your gut for longer. I will do what you suggested and I am focusing on 2 probiotic brands. One has 10 strains, the other one 20. Since it´s hard to get the 20 I try the 10 first. It seems that dairy always helps me to digest food better, so I am thinking that it´s the bacteria of raw dairy that does that. I tried eating with pasteurized cheese and digestion was bad. So it seems that I have a very low bacterial count in my gut and raw dairy or joghurt helps due to the bacteria present.

But I do still have 3 questions regarding your method. 1.You mentioned to culture them in dried whey, would normal non-dried whey from fresh kefir work as well (not too long fermented as u said), and would normal raw milk work as good? Or did you not mention raw milk as this would be hard to administer via enema as it would be too thick. 2. Then that pint of solution you implant via enema, how long do you retain it? Because usually after a couple of minutes you need to flush it out, which would make the whole thing pointless. So how long do you need to retain it in order for the strains to attach to the gut lining well enough? And any special position used? 3. Then after you have done that you feed them with increasingly small amounts. How small and why small? Can´t you just drink a pint or a liter of milk to be sure they are fed enough and thrive? Sorry about all the questions but I wanna do this the correct way.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 27, 2018, 10:59:54 am
yes, a lot of variables.. I would stick with powdered whey.  Kefir liquid is going to have their own bacteria, good or bad, I don't know.   Often half of kefir is yeast.  More yeast than bacteria when cultured at temps closer to room temp or below, more bacteria when cultured at body temp.     I wouldn't use milk, that's me, too much protein, fat, etc that's not been digested.  The bacteria feed on lactose.   Try eight ounces first.  Try to hold it in as long as you can.  Maybe watch a movie lying down and forget about it.  I did it in a bathtub full of water, believing that it put less strain due to floating.. Who knows though.  I also tried to massage it up and around.    the starting out with a little at a time is when you're just trying to increase populations orally and not in addition to rectally.   So simply experiment for yourself and see what works best.   
    My experiences were many years ago when I had goats and lived off of their milk.  I no longer do dairy, so I really can't get too excited about milk again. Personally, I wouldn't ingest milk unless I knew the herd and knew they weren't eating grain, and had lots of green grass to produce milk from.
    the other thing about dairy that no one talks about,,, watch a commercial milk operation.  Watch how they wash the teats just before placing the vacuum apparatus on them.  That washing liquid is an antibacterial solution which obviously gets in the milk.  I think that dairy farmers don't care too much about how much of that gets in their milk because it keeps the bacterial load down.   Every so often they have to have their milk tested for certain bacterial counts by the state, to be able to sell it. 
    When my daughter was young, and the mother fought me about providing our daughter raw goat milk from my own goats, I thought I would have it tested to show her the results to keep her from complaining to the 'authorities'.    The tests all came back with bacterial loads higher than the industry allowed standard.  And these were some very healthy well grass and plant fed goats..
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 30, 2018, 04:08:19 am
You said you would stick to powerdered whey, but initially you said dried whey? Or was it just a typo? I don´t know the difference between the powdered and dried whey, probably the same? So when I get my probiotics I´ll put put them in the whey solution of warm water and off the journey goes  ;D

And what you said about the vaccum is interesting. Next time I buy organic raw milk from a farmer I´ll ask regarding that. It also makes me wonder how the organic certification is done then. Because if it has a high bacterial load (i assume you meant negative), then what are the parameters they test the organic milk for? Or maybe there is an "organic" antibacterial solutions as well? That reminds me of AV, mentioning that one of the best ways to get raw milk is from Amish farmers, probably because they don´t use any machinery or anything artificial.

Then there might be other 2 ways to make digestion easier and add bacteria, especially e-coli. One of them was explained by AV in https://soundcloud.com/oneradionetwork/062311_vonderplanitz_aajonus_primal_diet_two I did a transcript of that, at least of the things that I understood correctly.  and * stands for things I didn´t catch at all.

Quote
True constipation is block in intestines. Most people when they change to a healthy diet, when they altered from a vegan or vegetarian diet they are nutrient starved. Then, all of a sudden the body gets a lot nutrients and tries to absorb every bit of it, and therefore it will be very dry. Also the e-coli has been starved, and when it gets the fats in the later stage of digestion, the preferable ones, the more fresh ones they never see or gaft? So they will hold on the fecal matter trying to break everything down and digest it. That’s not true constipation, but its uncomfortable. Take 3 tbl of butter, coconut cream and dairy cream and quarter teaspoon of honey. Mix together in a 4 ounce jelly jar. Do this before u go to bed. Heat with bowl of hot water (that doesn’t burn hand). That will bring it to body temperature (liquidish) in about 3-4 minutes. Take syringe and put it up your ass (suppository). Not to be moved*. Put face down on knees, roll your stomach like a belly dancer and get it to move up to decending colon. Then lie on right side, life left leg and roll ur stomach like a belly dancer again and get it to move across the transverse colon down to the ascending colon. Then u´ll feed ecoli directly with very fresh fats so they wont hold on to that fecal matter. Thin ppl or starving, vegan or vegetarian diet for a long time, they need to do that every 2-3 days or other people may need to do it only once a week or once a month. If u put something cold in ass ur body wants to flush it out. It gets rid of depression too

then the 2nd one is this:

Quote
ecoli helps brain functions, university of Toronto dissolved brain tumours with ecoli in 2-5 days* peoples cancer reverse when eating fecal matter, little amount, get them from amish farmers and start eating when tumours don’t get remove otherwise. * certain types of salmonella eat cancer* we are in trouble because we are so clean

So you can either eat fecal matter yourself, which is the ultimate hardcore, or nowadays doctors do Fecal Transplantation https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/clinical_services/advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html That might be the best way to get the bacteria that you need, except the one that you mentioned and maybe the first method of AV. I think I stick to urs and high meat for now  ;D
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 30, 2018, 09:33:52 am
dried, powdered, the same,, as it comes from making cheese, when the whey separates.
   I don't give much credence to much of what AV says.  Sorry.   And a lot of what I am not a fan of is that he keeps people in their head with this potion and this concept. That's how he made his money.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: PaganGoy on October 30, 2018, 09:54:23 am
I usually only ever see ajanous make dietary recommendations based on different dietary ratios or synergistic alkaline combinations to increase enzyme function.  Ajanous will occasionally recommend a specific food like cabbage juice for certain digestion issues for example because of its phyto chemical effect I believe but I would hardly call that a "potion" or money making scheme just personal knowledge and understanding.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on October 30, 2018, 01:29:23 pm
He made his money off of consultations where he had his clients follow all sorts of detailed dietary regimes.   Thus he had many cures for all the many ailments his clients came to him with.  He knew people want something to believe in or cure them.   Have you ever heard Eckart Tolle speak about how when people go to meditation retreats they want, expect, feel as though they got something of value 'when they come home with the Seven Truths...."   as opposed to having been given the simple instruction to notice or observe and see what you learn from that? 

   People love information, it makes them feel like they have control over their situation, what ever it is.  I'm no different.  I simply find it interesting when I see it being used, or overused.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: sabertooth on October 31, 2018, 11:11:49 am
Information is often a makeshift crutch the mind uses to find ones way after the instinct has been lost.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on October 31, 2018, 04:30:53 pm
I don´t take everything that AV said serious. But still, he was one of the few people that put some kind of information out there where others did not. So instead of judging and taking everything at face value, you can still take that provided information, analyse or test it yourself, and then make up your own mind if it´s useful or not. Just the fact that it makes you think further, is important to give you leads that you might need for your own process thinking. So even if you think what he said is useless, for somebody else it might be the quite the opposite. Therefore I think it´s good that people should still mention his ideas. And I don´t know many people that had this out of the box thinking like him. If there are please mention them. I think the reason why so many people quote AV on this forum is simply the fact that they don´t know anybody similar to him. And of course you can overuse information, but that´s when you blindly follow somebody´s advise, like following a guru. Then ur in trouble.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 01, 2018, 12:56:39 am
So let me ask you, regarding the last point made here on his suggestion.. do you think for this 'somebody else', that if he or she has constipation, do you think it's a good idea for them to shove his concoction up their butt to feed their E Coli to relieve their constipation?   And let's just say they do this, and then they poop.  What do you think they are going to do the next time they miss their morning movement?    ( and by shoving his concoction up your butt, you will probably poop, as you will poop with shoving anything up your butt). 
    My point again, he offers those looking for an answer to quelch their churning mind's need to know.  You call this thinking further.  I call it feeding the minds incessant need to latch on.     
    Naturaly there is balance here, as we all need to think with out minds. 
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on November 01, 2018, 04:02:26 am
Is it a good idea that somebody does a colonic like you did, is it good to do an enema like many others do? Did this idea start come from AV? Not really, and yes, it might be good to feed your E. coli to relieve your constipation. Because if you have severe constipation then you will do ANYTHING to relieve it, especially if you do not want to take meds. It´s obviously not a permanent solution, but sometimes an idea that somebody gives you, regardless if its coming from AV or from anybody on this forum, or anybody that claims to know something about health, can help. And as far as I read, there are people on this forum that had great benefits with his suggestions, some had not. His suggestion of sourdough bread fucked my gut up. Is that a reason for me why should disregard anything he said? No. But again, it´s not about blindly following somebody´s advice, its taking any information that you get from anybody that has some kind of experience, and make up your own mind. And I don´t really care how much money he made from people or how many people think his suggestions are BS. And yes, many people search for answers, and if he is the one that MIGHT provide one then why take that away from them? I mean if you are stupid enough to follow everything that anybody says blindly, then you obviously end up in trouble. So yes, thinking with our own minds, but at the same time not closing the eyes due to prejustices towards others that we disagree with or dislike.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 01, 2018, 07:35:31 am
like I said there's a balance.   My opinion of AV again is,, he created stories and concoctions to satisfy the needs and wants of a certain type of client.  Maybe we can leave it at that. 
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: sabertooth on November 01, 2018, 09:33:29 am
Balance can be difficult to find, especially when inundated with conflicted information. The human nature under the influence of artificial environmental conditioning, has become so detached from being able to fully trust instinct, and so we rely heavily on intelligence to generate creative solutions to the problems that arise with the severance from nature. This increasing reliance upon information creates a vicious circle which has taken us so far from our evolutionary environment, that finding a balance between the instinct and intellect becomes an impossible feat.

Dairy simply never worked well for me, but being exposed to AV and many others lead me to once believe that if only I adopted the correct protocols and followed the prescriptions religiously then I could provoke proper adaption. Eventually I got the message that dairy just didn't work well for me personally, and life is much better without it.

There are just too many blind spots in the logic behind Dairy consumption persistence adaptations. The conditions which had to occur in order for humans to form a balanced adaption to heavy dairy consumption, is for the most part too extreme to reproduce in the modern era. Imagine nearly starved pastoral herds peoples, braving the extreme conditions of life on the frontier. During certain seasons they would be ravenous for anything which would allow them to simply survive to the next season. Learning to utilize dairy, fermenting it, making cheeses, butter, gave people an advantage...but it must of taken countless generations to adapt.... living on the brink of imbalance...consuming large amounts of rotten milk, having the infants nursed by mothers also consuming copious amounts of dairy throughout her life. Transgenerationally passed down antibodies and very early inoculation with lacto-friendly microcosms allowed for a delicate balance form.

But this balance was extremely precarious from the very beginning, and once the mother to offspring cycle was broken...this prenatal and postnatal dairy tolerance inoculations through prolonged breast milk feeding, and weaning directly to fermented dairy...then this balance was lost. Some people who haven't been to harshly effected by the modern afflictions may still have remnants of this dairy digestion persistence, but many other are totally intolerant and it would be foolish for those people to continue to pursue dairy based dietary protocols.

My mother was formula fed, I was only breast fed for 4 month, I was given multiple antibiotics as a baby, and drank pasteurized milk for my entire childhood until i finally realized it was actually behind many of my health issues. Ive learned to accept this fact and have moved on to seeking out foods which can heal and nourish that are not so troublesome to the system. Perhaps if I had no other choice like our ancient ancestors I could force myself into some haphazard tolerance to dairy and ignore the negative instinctive signalling for long enough to redevelop the kind of mutations which would reintroduce dairy digestive resistance into the modern gene pool...but as of now that just seems counter intuitive to how i wish to spend my life......After a short time of experiencing mucous stools, constipation, feeling horribly, or whatever other symptoms of dairy woes, I would advise people reconsider dairy elimination.

Perhaps this may be extreme, but the first symptoms of intolerance to any-food, will cause me to to pause and weigh out the pros and cons, using both instinct and intellect, to decide what next to do. Its gotten to the point where I will throw out an entire animal if after a few days it doesn't suit me, even if there isn't anything visibly wrong with it.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on November 15, 2018, 01:31:53 am
@Van I got my probiotics now and wanna do this experiment. I will take liquid whey that I got from making my own cheese, pour the powdered strains in (how many pills would you suggest for that pint?) and then leave it in the oven on roughly 100F to multiply for a day. Do I need to close the glass jar off, meaning it needs to be anaerobic for them to multiply?

You also said that you did raw joghurt. I´d like to do that as well. Same principle but just with milk? I don´t have something similar to a joghurt maker, so I guess the oven would work as much? Thanks
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 15, 2018, 03:35:27 am
So here's where I don't know..   Your whey already has tons of bacteria,, which will compete with the prob. that you add.  I would suggest that you boil it to start with a sterile environment.    And I am assuming that your whey hasn't already gone acidic. If it has, most of the lactose will have turned into lactic acid and not feed your prob.
   The powdered whey I bought had not gone acidic before drying/pasturizing.    You can experiment.  Maybe with 500 mls. you could add ten capsules.  Being that you might place that much in your colon.   Get a thermometer and make sure it doesn't go over body temp.  And oven with a light in it or a small heating pad, with some practice you can adjust the temp. by slightly opening the door of the oven, or even use a box, or large cooler, or cupboard.  But you want to hover around body temp. because that is where the bacteria you want to grow in your color will multiply the fastest and outcompete others.
 Making yogurt out of raw milk is tricky due to the already present bacteria in milk.  I would probably suggest going the kefir route there, and making sure you have lots of K. grains to efficiently culture the milk before competing bacteria can also grow.  In both the colon solution and kefir stop the culturing process as it begins to go acidic by taste.  Waiting too long and the bacteria ( and yeasts in kefir ) will expire due to lack of food/available lactose and too high of acidity.
   
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on November 15, 2018, 04:03:04 am
To get the whey I always let the goat milk curdle for 2-3 days outside on around 70-75 F, strain it and put it in the fridge. The recent batch I made is there since approx 5-7 days. I just tasted it and its not sour at all, so I guess I´ll use that. And I´ll boil it as u said to kill the bacteria so it doesnt compete with the probiotics. Regarding the kefir I always used to wait around a day until the whey separated properly, then mixed it to get one consistency again, and waited another day until it was more acidic. I didn´t know that it´s better to not let it turn too acidic, was always under the impression the more acidic it is the more beneficial. thanks.

And the whey with prob has to be anaerobic in order for the bacteria to multiply efficiently correct?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 15, 2018, 06:38:23 am
the acidity is the taste of the excrement of the bacteria.   I found when I was heavily into kefir, I would mix 50 /50 kefir with milk.  the result was a very creamy delicious taste.  I think too much lactic acid is a burden on the body.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: madnomad on November 16, 2018, 05:29:07 pm
I never heat my raw whey..I also never seem to have stomach upsets when I am regularly drinking naturally fermented whey. I often mix the raw whey with raw curds to make a sort of Natural yogurt/kefir substitute but then the curds run out and I just keep drinking the whey till it's gone. I have often wondered what part genetics plays with dairy although I rarely drink fresh milk and mostly drink clabber, curds and whey and fermented cream.

I'm half Irish and prior to the potato, the Irish diet was characterised by "milky": whey, curds, cream and butter, "Bonne clabber", etc for thousands of years. Fermented dairy was a staple food for such a long span of time in Ireland so I do feel it is an ancestral food that fits well with my genetics. Whether it works for others I can't speculate but I do think genetics most likely plays a part regarding tolerance.

Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 17, 2018, 12:30:28 am
the instructions to heat the whey was only to have a sterile culture medium to innoculate human strains of probiotics. Otherwise I would never suggest heating raw whey.  hope that helps.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on November 17, 2018, 03:43:26 am
You said the production of raw joghurt is tricky, but I assume you have tried it and succeeded. Mind sharing how?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 17, 2018, 04:37:09 am
Okay, when I was in touch with a company who produced various probiotics ( the president made his fortune by creating and patenting a strain that was utilized in yogurts all throughout south korea to combat a certain bacteria that caused stomach ulcers and eventually stomach cancer ) I was able to buy one kilo containers of incredibly high count single strains.  Mostly bifida bacteria types.  I bought it at wholesale prices so that I was able to use quite large amounts to make yogurts. The numbers of bacteria were billions of times higher than you could get out of a capsule.  I would use a tablespoon at a time.    But now thinking about it, I could have, you could,,  pasteurize your whey, and then innoculate it to just acid levels and then use that to make your yogurt.  You could start with a relatively low amount of inoculant. Do the math, bacteria can double every ten minutes...With super high counts you basically overwhelm the competing bacteria. 
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on November 17, 2018, 06:33:38 am
Ok, and what temperature is essential so the bacteria can multiply? You mentioned body temperature, what if I cannot achieve that in my oven. Would the bacteria not multiply at all or would they just multiply at a much lower rate if its below let´s say 37 C?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on November 17, 2018, 07:32:28 am
It's just a matter of what wattage your light bulb is.  Or as mentioned get a carboard box or  cooler.   When I used my medium sized cooler, I would place the glass liter full of to be yogurt and then on the other side a two liter glass bottle with lid of very warm water.  It heated the cooler nicely.  Just go to the store and get an easy to read thermometer.   You'll have better success having temps closer to the body temp.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on December 03, 2018, 05:46:43 am
@van how often did you do the probiotic implantation? Was once enough for you?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on December 03, 2018, 07:09:40 am
hard to remember exactly, but maybe three times.   Not that I needed three times,, who knows, but each time I perfected the culture and implantation method so felt warranted to give it another go.   

   For the most part, I wasn't eating meat then, just living off my goats' milk she gave.   Now with a carnivore diet, it wouldn't make sense to attempt as I have zero food for those bacteria to survive on in my colon.   
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on January 07, 2019, 04:11:27 am
Do you have any suggestion how to be able to consume butter again? I´d like to eat it again since it´s high in fat and the other things are a bit costly. I can digest milk and cheese from various animals without issues, clabbered milk is the best, also no or little problems with lard, goose fat and tallow, all high in saturated fats, but grassfed/organic butter, raw or pasteurized is hard on me. I don´t really get it.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on January 07, 2019, 09:14:50 am
same here, even with the best butter from early summer months..  I have always suspected that since butter comes from spinning the cream from milk and then the cream is 'churned',, both processes introducing copious amounts of air during the processes, that possibly there's some degree of oxidation that I don't get along with. 

  then there's also proteins that remain with butter, hence why some clarify butter into ghee. 
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: madnomad on January 07, 2019, 06:47:27 pm
Are you guys unable to digest fermented raw butter and raw cultured cream? When I have made clabbered milk I leave the cream with it to ferment along with the curds and whey and then spoon it off after a few days of fermentation before the curds have fully separated. I find it quite easy to digest and usually don't bother to make it into butter but just eat as is and store in the fridge in a glass jar. I would try making fermented butter/cream yourself as well rather than buying something pre-made and see if that digests better.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on January 08, 2019, 05:33:18 am
Your point regarding oxidation is interesting. It might be fine if its eaten super fresh, but I never tried that. Initially I had thought it might be the A1 cow strains responsible, but I have almost the same issue with goat butter (but pasteurized). Ghee is also digested badly for me. Plus its produced in higher heat, which I don´t like too much. I am thinking now that I could try and force my body to digest it, by eating it more often. That worked with meat. As when I started eating meats again after a plant based diet I had a hard time digesting red meats, now it´s pretty ok. So maybe if you eat something that does not do you too well more often, your body learns how to adapt and digest it.

@madnomad I find raw cultured cream to be the ultimate food. Whole clabbered milk or clabbered cheese does not satisfy me as much, but soured cream is godly. I could eat it none stop, and its also a great digestion aid. I also think that it calms me down, AV praised raw cream a lot for it´s nerve calming effects. He might have been right about that. And your idea is a good one. Cultured butter could give you the strains I need to digest butter again. Worth a try.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on January 08, 2019, 09:04:38 am
wasn't suggesting to use ghee.  Just mentioning it for why people go to the degree of processing it.   
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: FRANCIS HOWARD BOND on January 09, 2019, 12:15:15 am
Perhaps I was privileged by being brought up on Full Cream Jersey A 2 Milk and enjoying every thick creamy drop.    I continued with this till at least 1998 when it became difficult to obtain, and the local dairy closed.    Since on Full Cream more ordinary A 1 milk from Frisian and similar cows.   Noticed the difference and poor keeping qualities.    Developed slight nasal allergy causing sneezing after drinking.    Same with milk chocolate!?    A 1 Green top milk keeps better than A 1 Blue top, but does not have much taste.   Would prefer Jersey Milk if I could still get it?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on January 11, 2019, 04:52:03 am
@van How did you manage to steer away from dairy? I´d like to try it but it seems very hard.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on January 11, 2019, 10:57:12 am
 I became so dependant on it that I simply made a choice.     I read one of your last posts where you wrote ( think it was you ) that you have  a liter with each meal.  that seems like a lot to consume when eating meat.  As in, I would Guess, that the meat would simply swim in all that milk and not fully digest.  You might want to confirm it really is working for you,  but then maybe if it's really clabored it would work.     My guess is that you're consuming that much to keep weight on?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on January 11, 2019, 06:52:30 pm
When I am abroad I have a liter of cow with each meal, 2-3 times a day, because I have access to it and its cheap.. When I am at home I have a big glass of goat with every meal, 2-3 times a day. There is 1 main reasons why I consume so much dairy, because it aids digestion, clabbered is best. The higher fat content the better, so I prefer cow than goat. But at home I can´t get organic cow, so I stick to the watery goat. Also the goat is super expensive and sourcing, regardless of what type of raw dairy is mostly a pain in the a. Especially if you are out and about. Meat u get everywhere. And if I don´t get raw, I need to stick to pasteurized, which messes up my teeth. Goat doesnt really have the ability to increase my weight, but cow does. So yes, another reason why I consume dairy is because I can gain weight. And as you said, dependancy is a big problem.

The ideal case is that I can eat more fatty cuts of meat, but the problem is I can´t digest them yet, as my stomach acid is still not strong enough, plus I need a ratio of about 60 fat to 40 protein or more, otherwise digestion is bad. Ideally I would eat cheap fatty cuts, or osso buco which has the bone marrow included, together with some lard or tallow. Raw fat is too hard to digest and where I live there are no healthy animals around. So the only way would be the osso and the fatty cuts, or homemade bacon in extra fat. I´d like to phase out dairy a bit, by eating less dairy but with higher fat content, like butter.

How did you achieve turning away from dairy and how did your body take it? You just stopped all of a sudden? And how was your digestion? Sabertooth said to go on a 2 day water fast to possibly reset the microbiome. Did you do something like that?
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: van on January 12, 2019, 10:32:46 am
I went from dairy to 80/10, which ruined my health.  Luckily I read on the internet how some, if not many, will continue with a believed in way of eating even to the point of ruining their health.  I took that expression to heart.  I then switched to using fat as fuel and haven't really eaten much fruit at all now for many years.  that first weekend, all I could do is lay on the couch with little ability to utilize fat.  And then it just got easier...

   I have to admit I probably couldn't live this way unless I had a source of non-rancid grass fed yummy fat and marrow.   So I can sympathize with you there. 
 
   My Guess is that all this milk in combination with meat isn't helping your body to learn how to switch to fat as a fuel.  Same as if I continued to eat fruit.  the sugar kicks you out of being a fat burner.    That's about all I can offer.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: sabertooth on January 12, 2019, 12:05:56 pm

The ideal case is that I can eat more fatty cuts of meat, but the problem is I can´t digest them yet, as my stomach acid is still not strong enough, plus I need a ratio of about 60 fat to 40 protein or more, otherwise digestion is bad. Ideally I would eat cheap fatty cuts, or osso buco which has the bone marrow included, together with some lard or tallow. Raw fat is too hard to digest and where I live there are no healthy animals around. So the only way would be the osso and the fatty cuts, or homemade bacon in extra fat. I´d like to phase out dairy a bit, by eating less dairy but with higher fat content, like butter.

How did you achieve turning away from dairy and how did your body take it? You just stopped all of a sudden? And how was your digestion? Sabertooth said to go on a 2 day water fast to possibly reset the microbiome. Did you do something like that?

I also noticed how dairy would entirely inhibit my ability to digest raw animal fats. Drinking milk with fatty meat would make it seem like the meat is just swimming in the milk and not digesting fully.  I tried limiting the amount of meat and fat while drinking larger amounts and lessening the fat. It helped a little, but overall my gut never felt right with dairy no matter the protocol or ratio.

I believe the enzymes and probiotics that work to digest raw animal fat are squelched out by dairy, especially in people like myself who were enzymatically insufficient. After a week or so of drinking milk daily the fats begin to pass through entirely undigested, and I lose my cravings for any extra fats. The milk sugar seems to throw me out of keto, and though temporarily it will give me energy and stimulate hunger and weight gain... it leads to episodes of hypoglycemia, digestive distress, and a host of other symptoms which lead me to abstain altogether.

Using dairy for only short periods, I could usually rebalance the gut within a week or so...I imagine someone who relied on it for longer periods of time, while never truly adapting to high levels of animal fat, would have a much more difficult time eliminating it from the diet. It could take up to three weeks to rid the gut of the milk sugars, fats, proteins, and microbes that inhibit adaptation to raw animal fat digestion.

I recommend a short term fast to help jumpstart the keto process, but its important to not starve yourself, three days water fast max, and to make sure you have the best fatty meats available once dairy has been eliminated. Try to obtain a variety of different fats... marrow, caul fat, suet, brain, sweet breads, tongue. Beware of cooked fats like tallow and lard, especially from unknown sources.

Once the body becomes starved for overall calories and has no other alternative, then it will be much more eager to rev up the long dormant keto metabolism. If you can get past the hurdle of raw fat digestion, then everything becomes much easier to balance. For me I can eat copious amounts of Raw fat, but there may have been some anomaly which isn't shared by most people. Before starting the Raw paleo diet I experimented with a high fat vegan diet, where everything was covered with olive or coconut oil. I spent a month eating low glycemic vegetables covered with plant fats. After weeks of enduring such an abusive dietary regimen, raw animal fats were easy to breakdown. Around the same time ealy into the transition I was using coconut butter to supplement fat, because of the lean goat meat I was eating didn't have enough. Raw Coconut butter seemed to help prime my fat burning metabolism, and I still to this day eat a couple of tablespoons with my meals...though again I could be as much an anomaly as the coconut itself.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: norawnofun on January 13, 2019, 04:19:06 am
Thanks for ur inputs. I would like to try and go the non-dairy route to see of any improvements. So far, things were only going uphill since carnivore, but I think you can always improve things. And being a slave to dairy ain´t no fun. I´m way too dependent on that and I want it to stop. And because I want more mental clarity, but if your digestion is blocked then you don´t have that. Therefore dairy up until now was the only way to somewhat have a good digestion and stay a bit focused. I did fasts only twice. Once a juice fast for 5 days, and once a broth fast for 1 and a half days. Nearly passed out on the broth, never attempted that again. I don´t like fasts because you loose weight, and every kilo counts for me. But I guess I have no choice if I want to turn things around and get the stomach acid back to its origin. Or I do it very slowly. Cut out more and more dairy, replace it with fat, eat very small portions. I also think that the goat dairy I have is pretty much hindering things, since its more alkaline. When I have cow milk things are going much better since its acidic and fattier.
Title: Re: A1 versus A2 dairy, any difference?
Post by: ivanrk on February 24, 2019, 11:50:44 am
The problem is not that milk is bad - you just made the worst possible combination. Milk is for babies - they dont have stomach acid so it needs alkaline ph in stomach - more specifically the digestion begins in the stomach by enzyme Chymosin (Rennin) , meat needs high acidity - pepsin and stomach acid - there is no way to combine both and digest them no matter how strong are your enzymes. Some even say that calcium block stomach acid - so again bad combination, but potassium on the other side should increase stomach acid.

I also noticed how dairy would entirely inhibit my ability to digest raw animal fats. Drinking milk with fatty meat would make it seem like the meat is just swimming in the milk and not digesting fully.  I tried limiting the amount of meat and fat while drinking larger amounts and lessening the fat. It helped a little, but overall my gut never felt right with dairy no matter the protocol or ratio.

I believe the enzymes and probiotics that work to digest raw animal fat are squelched out by dairy, especially in people like myself who were enzymatically insufficient.