Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Wai Dieters => Topic started by: aariel on September 30, 2009, 07:38:05 am

Title: Fructose
Post by: aariel on September 30, 2009, 07:38:05 am
Aren't fruit diets bad because of all the fructose?

There are good studies indicating that high fructose intake causes health problems.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2009, 06:16:35 am
Those studies that you talk about use very high levels of fructose (at least from all of the ones I have read). All of the studies that I have read also use isolated, unnatural, refined/crystalline fructose, which IS actually different than natural fruit sugar. In fact, fruit sugar, in it's natural form, should really be called laevulose (NOT fructose), where it is bound to other chemical compounds, canceling out any 'negative' qualities. When you isolate a chemical outside of it's natural biochemical sequence, it then becomes more like a drug, not a food, to the human body because the dependent qualities are lost. For example, we all know that benzoylmethylecgonine (cocaine) is a highly addictive substance. But why? Benzoylmethylecgonine is the alkaloid that is derived from coca leaves. This alkaloid is what makes the drug highly addictive. However, in the coca plant itself, this alkaloid is in it's natural state, where the addictive qualities are canceled out by other chemical compounds, therefore it is not recognized by your body as a drug like cocaine is. Go ahead, chew on some coca leaves. It's like drinking coffee and may southern American countries do that legally. It's nothing like loading up on cocaine. This is one of the most overlooked subjects in biochemistry and nutrition. People forget that not all harmful isolated chemicals are harmful in their original form of natural biochemical sequence. So, to say that laevulose (fruit sugar) is the same exact thing as highly refined, isolated, crystalline fructose would be wrong. That would be like saying cocaine is the same thing as coca or that heroine is the same thing as those poppy-seeds on top of that bagel in the market. Also, fruit is not the major source of fructose (laevulose) in the normal diet. Most people don't get much of it in it's natural form. In fact, only certain fruits are high in laevulose, while others are relatively low. Here is a list of foods that contain fructose (natural and refined), in descending order:

• High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS)
• Table Sugar, which is a 50:50 combination of glucose and fructose
• Brown Sugar
• Maple Sugar
• Cane Sugar
• Molasses
• Honey
• Concentrated Fruit Juice
• Fruits
• Vegetables

As you can see, fruits and vegetables are at the very bottom. Now factor in the simple fact that this is laevulose, not refined, isolated, crystalline fructose. Completely different than HFCS in both quantity and biochemical sequence. There is also another important fact that the "all sugar is created equal" crowed misses: Unlike glucose, laevulose is an insulin-independent monosachharide. In a healthy person, fruit does not spike blood sugar violently, like table sugar does. So, in other words, stay away from refined, man-made fructose, but fruit in it's natural form is fine. I think one of the most important thing some raw paleo/meat eaters often overlook is the need for antioxidants in todays environment.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: van on October 04, 2009, 08:52:58 am

  Fruit and vegetables; at the bottom of the list.  Do you know what percentage of calories of the fruits you eat is from fructose?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Cthulhu on October 04, 2009, 09:22:32 am
 Fruit and vegetables; at the bottom of the list.  Do you know what percentage of calories of the fruits you eat is from fructose?

Well, I am a natural bodybuilder/powerlifter, so I do not do zero carb dies. I eat about 3500-3800 calories a day just to maintain my LBM and fitness levels (I lift 5 days a week). Of the 3500-3800 calories that I consume, about 30% come from protein, 40% come from fat (mostly animal fat, filled in with some avocado and coconut fat), and 30% come from carbs. Sometimes my carb intake will go as high as 35-40% on special days or events, but it usually stays around the lower/moderate range (which is 30% or less). My main carb source is very simple: wild, raw honey and organic (mostly wild crafted/organic) fruit. I usually eat my raw honey post-workout or right before lifting weights only. The raw honey for my post-workout shake/meal is needed for an insulin spike in order to pull my body out of a catabolic state (lifting weights is catabolic). I try to make this low fat, high carb shake/meal.  So, for example, if I am consuming 3500 calories, with the macronutrient ratios adjusted for above, then 30% of my calories from carbohydrates would equal about 1050 calories. So, one serving of the raw honey that I eat contains about 60 calories and I try to aim for at least a few hundred grams of carbs for an insulin spike, so I'd say about 480 calories come from honey and then a few hundred more from wild bananas and/or berries, in conjunction with a raw lean protein source. Usually, when I am in a rush, I just throw in a bunch of organic eggs and blend them up with honey and fruit and that is enough for my muscles to prevent catabolism.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: aariel on October 04, 2009, 10:27:40 am
Those studies that you talk about use very high levels of fructose (at least from all of the ones I have read). All of the studies that I have read also use isolated, unnatural, refined/crystalline fructose, which IS actually different than natural fruit sugar. In fact, fruit sugar, in it's natural form, should really be called laevulose (NOT fructose), where it is bound to other chemical compounds, canceling out any 'negative' qualities. When you isolate a chemical outside of it's natural biochemical sequence, it then becomes more like a drug, not a food, to the human body because the dependent qualities are lost. For example, we all know that benzoylmethylecgonine (cocaine) is a highly addictive substance. But why? Benzoylmethylecgonine is the alkaloid that is derived from coca leaves. This alkaloid is what makes the drug highly addictive. However, in the coca plant itself, this alkaloid is in it's natural state, where the addictive qualities are canceled out by other chemical compounds, therefore it is not recognized by your body as a drug like cocaine is. Go ahead, chew on some coca leaves. It's like drinking coffee and may southern American countries do that legally. It's nothing like loading up on cocaine. This is one of the most overlooked subjects in biochemistry and nutrition. People forget that not all harmful isolated chemicals are harmful in their original form of natural biochemical sequence. So, to say that laevulose (fruit sugar) is the same exact thing as highly refined, isolated, crystalline fructose would be wrong. That would be like saying cocaine is the same thing as coca or that heroine is the same thing as those poppy-seeds on top of that bagel in the market. Also, fruit is not the major source of fructose (laevulose) in the normal diet. Most people don't get much of it in it's natural form. In fact, only certain fruits are high in laevulose, while others are relatively low. Here is a list of foods that contain fructose (natural and refined), in descending order:

• High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS)
• Table Sugar, which is a 50:50 combination of glucose and fructose
• Brown Sugar
• Maple Sugar
• Cane Sugar
• Molasses
• Honey
• Concentrated Fruit Juice
• Fruits
• Vegetables

As you can see, fruits and vegetables are at the very bottom. Now factor in the simple fact that this is laevulose, not refined, isolated, crystalline fructose. Completely different than HFCS in both quantity and biochemical sequence. There is also another important fact that the "all sugar is created equal" crowed misses: Unlike glucose, laevulose is an insulin-independent monosachharide. In a healthy person, fruit does not spike blood sugar violently, like table sugar does. So, in other words, stay away from refined, man-made fructose, but fruit in it's natural form is fine. I think one of the most important thing some raw paleo/meat eaters often overlook is the need for antioxidants in todays environment.

I agree that reductionist principles in science often result in studies that have no relevancy in the real world. I've never seen a study comparing crystalline fructose with a diet containing an equivalent amount of bound fructose in the form of whole fruit--not that I've done an exhaustive search of the literature.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: carnivore on January 28, 2010, 06:47:17 pm
Table of Fruits and sugar (including fructose) :

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/fruits_table.html
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: tammy123 on May 13, 2010, 11:16:43 pm
As far as I know everything should be required in equally quantity and fructose is one of the very important source as it should not be taken too much, Only the required quantity which is necessary.

Thanks
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Hannibal on May 14, 2010, 03:46:34 am
High fructose fruits and honeys should be rather limited.
All sorts of berries, dark honeys have got a good glucose/fructose ratio. Plums, for example, are very good, because they've got a lot of glucose and only a little bit of fructose.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 14, 2010, 04:19:53 am
I'm glad about this thread and especially the point about "laevulose" - I have never heard that reference before, but the fact that it implies appropriate, biological complexification by nature is refreshing to hear.

There is a lot of damning of (even naturally-occurring) fructose in many places (saying things like fructose glycates in the hepatic portal vein, and up to 10 times more than glucose), so this point about laevulose seems like some kind of vindication.

It's true that fructose/laevulose invokes glucagon release, isn't it (counter-balancing the insulin invocation by glucose)? So, glucagon vs insulin is a happy balance...

@Cthulhu: Do you find that the weak organic acids in fruits compromise your tooth enamel? Many fruitarians notice that (especially with unripe fruit) outside the context of RAF, teeth are destroyed. I minimise fruit/honey because of the organic acids, while I'm trying to find the path to tooth healing through RAF.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 14, 2010, 05:14:56 am
Have you seen this blogpost Mr. BBQ?

I think it is great!
 
I'm looking for tooth-healing too, after I hurt ed my teeths with too much nuts (raw omnivore). Now I know, nuts are really bad for your teeth.  -X

And the good thing is,
they can heal! Even if you have gotten cavities!  ;D

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/reversing-tooth-decay.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/reversing-tooth-decay.html)

Inger
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 14, 2010, 06:00:07 am
Servus Inger,

Es freut mich Sie kennen zu lernen - schade dass Sie sind verheiratet (hehe, just kidding).

Very nice of you to relate that to me, thanks. I've spent the last couple of years researching tooth healing and it's a very interesting subject with many variables, particularly the ability to uptake fat-soluble vitamins and minerals (bile is important), as well as keeping blood sugar in a tight range. Also, there is the endocrinological perspective of keeping different hormones balanced, maybe with a properly active metabolism/thyroid.

One thing that I learned from WAPF is that collagen is important for bone/teeth healing, which they recommend in the form of bone broths, although of course, that's cooked. I make raw bone meal (labour intensive), although I'm still thinking of a way to raw process cartilage - maybe some kind of garden shredder, I don't know!

PaleoPhil and Lex (maybe others) have sealed/healed their enamel with raw zero-carb, although it's just not possible for me without negative effects, particularly constipation. I eat organ meats and minced fat with chunky meat every day (also, pastured egg yolks and high-vitamin butter oil with a D3 supplement), which has made a slight different, but not much - I think it takes time. I tried bone broths, which made a big difference but they trigger headaches (due to free glutamates in the gelatine).

I've seen most of the blogs about tooth healing, and I respect Stephen's posts because he does acknowledge the potential for "biliary insufficiency". Interestingly, the glycine in collagen is used to conjugate bile, so eating a lot of collagen contributes to bile production.

There are new answers every day...and then more questions!

Bis zum naechsten Mal...

Scotty
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: chucky on May 14, 2010, 02:42:40 pm
I know that anything that has more fructose than glycose causes problems for me. I can eat table sugar just fine but no fruit with higher fructose ratio to glycose.  Symptoms vary from pain to mental childness ( very annoying ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 14, 2010, 04:22:00 pm
Servus, Herr Barbeque!  ;)

Wie cool, Sie sprechen auch Deutsch!  ;D


You know what? I tried the bone-broth thing my self one week ago, cooking bones from pastured beefbones a few hours. I got the exactly same reaction as you. Quite terrible headaches! I never have headaches, so it had to be the bonebroth. So strange ???! Now I know why.

I got my first cavities as a 30 year old, after starting raw  :'(.  After reading this blogpost I am sure it was the nuts. And maybe dried mangos too. I ate a lot of them both.

And as a kid we had very poor food, like potatoes and porridge, homemade bread,  salted herring every day.  We was 15 kids, that's why. But we all had to take cod liver oil every singel day (I loved the taste of it by the way)! I think that saved our teeth's. And my mom also cared that we got enough sun, We always played in the garden, naked.  No one from us had cavities as kids. Ever. And we do got some Candy's sometimes.

(Entschuldige mein Englisch, puh, die ist einfach schrecklig.. )

Liebe Grüße von Inger
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 14, 2010, 04:27:29 pm
Hello Jarnapal,

Quote
I know that anything that has more fructose than glucose causes problems for me. I can eat table sugar just fine but no fruit with higher fructose ratio to glucose.  Symptoms vary from pain to mental childness ( very annoying ).

Mental childness...?  ???  *help*
Have to take a look at this link. I do not feel good from too much fructose eather. Not at all.  -[

Inger
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Hans89 on May 14, 2010, 07:07:29 pm
And as a kid we had very poor food, like potatoes and porridge, homemade bread,  salted herring every day.  We was 15 kids, that's why. But we all had to take cod liver oil every singel day (I loved the taste of it by the way)! I think that saved our teeth's. And my mom also cared that we got enough sun, We always played in the garden, naked.  No one from us had cavities as kids. Ever. And we do got some Candy's sometimes.

That diet sounds wonderful in comparison to what most kids eat nowadays...
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cherimoya_kid on May 14, 2010, 09:37:21 pm


I got my first cavities as a 30 year old, after starting raw  :'(.  After reading this blogpost I am sure it was the nuts. And maybe dried mangos too. I ate a lot of them both.



Pretty much all raw vegans end up trying the "nuts + dried fruit" diet, and they say that it destroys their health.  Dried fruit is one of the most dangerous foods out there.  Nuts are bad too, if you overindulge, but dried fruit is much, much worse.  I have had serious health problems from dried fruit.  It literally turned my hair gray. 

Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on May 14, 2010, 09:39:57 pm
Dried fruit contains sulphurites as a preservative. Foul stuff. I also used to eat some dried fruit as a raw vegan/fruitarian. Fortunately, I had the sense, at the time, to mainly focus on non-dried fruit, not that that helped much, either, re improving my health.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 14, 2010, 11:44:27 pm
Touché! ;-)) (genau!)

Nuts become a dense calorie/energy source for raw vegans, so they're a "natural" (hehe) choice - I also blame them for the destruction of my teeth and general health, particularly blood sugar control - they are too high in phytates, even when soaked and of course, they are a source of rancid PUFAs (especially unshelled). Humans eating nuts as a source of nourishment is a terrible practice...Hindsight is always 20/20 though I suppose, so I forgive my self!

Thankfully, I sensed the destructiveness of dried fruits early on, with their concentrated sugars due to no water content/bulk. Raisins are always coated with rancid veggie oils, which is why I opted for organic currants instead (not the load of tartaric acid either to further destroy teeth).

The perpetuation of raw veganism absolutely undermines human rights, as does the conventional food pyramid, which is the reason that I expose everyone to my raw meat-eating regardless of their uninquisitive prejudice (nobody ever asks me why out of natural curiosity!).

Raw veganism represents insane ideology over wellbeing and their is certainly money to be made. It reminds me of when I was young and I read about this peanut butter that made you fly (in the back of a Superman comic) - I thought that was amazing and dreamed about buying some at the time (I was about 5 years old!). I certainly didn't know about aflatoxins back then!
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 15, 2010, 01:22:38 am
Oh, THANK GOD I was never raw vegan!
No no  :). I always included animals in my raw diet. But I was still eating a lot of nuts and dried fruits. Only organic high quality stuff without sulphurites or veg.oil. But it still was not good for my teeth.  :'(

Have you all gone through this raw vegan thing, Tyler, MrBBQ, cherimoya_kid?

Inger
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on May 15, 2010, 02:33:24 am
Pretty much. I had several years of vegetarian(80% raw vegan(Hay Diet), that is), then 100% raw vegan then 100% fruitarian. I had no choice as my particular condition(adrenal burnout) had a very common symptom that any cooked animal foods would become increasingly more difficult to digest, resulting in agonising stomach-aches half an hour after eating such foods.To this day, cooked plant foods have a much lesser negative effect on me than cooked animal foods.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 15, 2010, 02:42:42 am
Tyler, how long was you raw vegan? How long fruitarian?


Why do you change your WOE?
and when, was it difficult? (because vegans tend to have this "ethic" thing)


How long have you been eating raw paleo?


 :) Inger
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on May 15, 2010, 02:51:56 am
I've been eating rawpalaeo for 8 years and some months(started in late February 2002). For 6 months before that I was doing the Primal Diet. I was doing raw vegetarian for 3+ years(Hay Diet meaning 80% raw vegan, 20% cooked animal foods), then 100% raw vegan for 2 years(most of which involved 80%+ fruits) and 100% fruitarian for a year or so, followed by what I thought was an Instincto Diet for 2-3 months but was nothing but(ie processed sushi products from supermarkets, smoked fish/meat etc.), then switched to the Primal Diet until the raw dairy nearly killed me.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 04:38:52 am
I was breast-fed for two years by a very maternal mother, then raised on whatever cheap cuts of meat and eggs were available, as well as sweet teas (British Empire style!) and tinned beans/spaghetti, crispy-crinkly chips in lard that weren't brown and so soft in the middle (I still think my mum's chips were the best!), curries etc.

I spent my youth drinking, smoking and experimenting with psychedelics, street/club drugs (as well as harder stuff at after-parties) etc. but in much more moderation than my crazed cronies. Thankfully, I managed to maintain a good measure of academia and self-teaching, as well as physical training, while also somehow keeping my day job. I was also drumming in a band for a few years, so my life was characterised by late nights and early mornings.

My party lifestyle ended around 4 years ago, when I started researching tooth decay (I was addicted to citrus fruits and OJ!) and stumbled on the work of Weston A. Price. I accepted the healing principles (including raw animal products), although I accidentally read some "green smoothie" recovery anecdotes on raw vegan forums and decided that eating raw organic plants/fruits would be easier than finding/eating raw grass-fed animal produce. I gained some more tooth cavities and the delusion came to an end 2 years later when I decided that my health was declining, even though the black shadows under my eyes had long-disappeared. I weighed 55kg - a shadow of my former curry-munching self.

I've been eating pretty strictly raw paleo for a year now (with great help from my very good contemporaries here) and I can certainly say that it's still a very steep learning curve. I eat liver and heart every day, either frozen-grated (then warmed) or dried (as "pet treats", which I sometimes throw the dog next door, who loves me!), along with a couple of handfuls of tough meats and 4 handfuls of minced/melted bulk fat. I drink raw, local biodynamic/wild honey in warm water with some pollen (through a straw), as well as low-acid fruits and maybe some berries each day - I rinse my mouth with sodium bicarbonate before and after all fruits to neutralise acids.

I have problems with my basal metabolic rate and digestion whenever I restrict carbohydrates, so at this juncture, fruit/honey is welcome. I experimented with cooked tubers, which were very warming/thermogenic, but I found the blood glucose crashes too much, as well as losing more enamel.

I will never eat another nut again - maybe one or two macadamias (low PUFA), but that's it.

One of my objectives now is to find a way to eat collagen-rich raw cartilage to facilitate skin, tooth/bone and systemic repair, as well as its anti-inflammatory effect.

I also entertain the practice of emptying the stones and debris from the biliary system, which I consider to be the most potent healing basis on which everything else rests.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 15, 2010, 05:06:43 am
Thanks guys, thanks so much!

I so much appreciate all this info!  :-*


Tyler, you said you tried "instinkto". Did you tried cassia, too? I was eating cassia every day for about two years. Gave me very loose bowel movements etc. I wonder if this also demineralized me and so my teeth's too?
 :o about the raw dairy almost killing you.. do you mind if I ask, what happend!?


MrBBQ,
tough, how you tried Fruitarian that long. You must have looked terrible. 55 kg.  :(
I'm totally with you on this nut-thing. Never eat them anymore myself, too (except of a seldom, few macadamias and I also tried Kenari-nuts this week, they are wild-growed nuts, but I got a strange feeling in my mouth after just a few so I think I will leave them)!  -[  Healthy teeth's is just so important! I hate to have any kind of fillings in my mouth! It cannot be healthy. I have only one little filling, cement. I refuse to do anything with my other cavities, I believe they will heal, I do.  :) They do not hurt eather, if I eat properly.  ;)  (if not.. i suffer terrible tootache  :'( )

Have you tried bone-marrow? It is my last favorite. I started to eat it one week ago, and from this day on my wrist (hand) have healed! It was overwrought due to my work, it did not wanted to heal.. I had this issue this whole winter. It was annoying, I could hardly brush my teeth without my wrist hurting (right hand, BTW). The next day after eating Marrow first time in my life, I looked at my wrist.. the swelling was gone..! And it did not come back after that day, it is over one week ago. I have not changed anything else. I believe it was the Marrow, that helped with the healing. Raw, grassfed marrow. Strange.. huh?  :)

Inger


Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 05:32:46 am
Hehe, I wasn't necessarily a fruitarian, or for that long - I was eating everything like sprouts, nuts/seeds (often as milks), cold-pressed oils like coconut/cocoa butter, salads etc. I was very lean, but I didn't necessarily look terrible - just very lean and a bit underweight. I had actually been that weight when I was a regular swimmer, so I was half-accustomed to it.

I agree that bone marrow is great (very easy to melt) and very healing. Thankfully, I get 2 long bones every week for nothing, so I have a free marrow treat twice per week. I also grind up bones for minerals/collagen, which I usually combine with the marrow.

I weigh 65kg now, so I feel much better/stronger, but I can bet that now I'm off hi-carbs (bananas are nasty), I'll lose weight again and start to get colder.

I'm pretty sure that my face is widening, especially since eating liver every day, which is consistent with others' experiences. My teeth also seem to have a very slight movement in them sometimes as if they're moving - maybe it's my imagination. It's weird because my teeth feel more fixed in my jaw (more solid bite), yet the tooth dentine/enamel is still very sensitive. I wonder if there's a system of priorities whereby the body favours certain tissues. Also, when I was first eating a lot of organs, my teeth seemed to feel as solid as a rock, but then the effect seemed to diminish as if I'd become accustomed to it, or something turned sour. I suppose that 1 year after a lot of malnourishment is too early to identify. One can only do one's best.

Some of my old cavities are no longer active and the tissue is hard not soft, but the newer ones hurt very often.

I thank my cavities because they originally caused me to pursue the healing arts, for both myself and others/family. I do my best in any given situation! ;-))
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: yon yonson on May 15, 2010, 05:51:39 am
hey guys, all this talk about teeth and fillings has got me intrigued. i got two cavities from when i was raw vegan that they found over a year and a half ago but didn't fill at the time. i just went to the dentist again and he said i should get them filled even though they hadn't gotten any worse over the last year and a half. i asked what they'd fill it with and all he could say was that it was some kind of 'composite' which im guessing is some kind of plastic. anyways, at least it's not a mercury amalgam. im really hesitant to get them filled because they haven't ever caused me any pain. what are your opinions? i already scheduled an appointment for the 25th...
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Hans89 on May 15, 2010, 06:02:40 am
Why are nuts so bad for the teeth?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 06:13:43 am
Is the dentine in the cavities hard and painless with no sensitivity - if so, no need to fill...Just keep very clean by swishing oils like virgin coconut oil, neem oil, tea tree oil before brushing teeth.

Do you eat organ meats every day, in moderation? Do you have access to vitamin D, either photosynthesised or supplemented to the tune of ~5,000-10,000 IU? What about vitamin K2 (WAP's "activator X") intake from livers, pastured eggs, butter oil and LifeExtension's synthetic Super K (1g per cap)? What about bon-building minerals for hurrying re-mineralisation along?

Fat uptake is important for assimilating fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E, K2 - bile sufficiency is naturally part of the dynamic.

Also, WAPF reckons that glycine, proline and hydroxyproline (from collagen/gelatine) are very valuable for bone building, along with the fat-soluble vitamins and abundance of minerals. Bone/cartilage broths would be ideal, except they're cooked and contain the potentially excitotoxic neurotransmitter glutamic acid in free form - that can initiate a nasty glutamate over-excitation in conditions of sensitivity (I'm sensitive, probably for various reasons like a history of PUFA abuse).

Maybe bone meal washed down with french green clay in water is a good source of minerals.

Also, balancing the endocrine system could be another dimension in healing teeth/bones. Whatever you do, stay away from x-rays of the teeth/jaw - I reckon that's one of the things that weakened my tooth structure.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 06:20:38 am
Nuts are high in n-6 PUFAs and potentially rancid PUFAs (from unshelled nuts) - PUFAs have been implicated in insulin resistance, so the impact of sugars on the mineral balance is greater, hence calcium excretion.

Nuts are high in phytic acid/phytates, which are not really neutralised that much by soaking in water - hence mineral insufficiency for their energy provision.

Nuts are high in phosphorous, which promotes calcium excretion without the necessary vitamins to keep the minerals in the protein matrix of the skeletal tissue.

As a source of free radicals, the PUFAs in nuts deplete the anti-oxidant vitamin E and increase lipid peroxidation markers.

Maybe nuts are useful on the odd occasion but every day as almond milk or nut butter is a recipe for demineralisation - I speak from experience. ;-(
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Hans89 on May 15, 2010, 06:50:49 am
Thanks for elaborating on that.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: yon yonson on May 15, 2010, 07:18:40 am
Quote
Is the dentine in the cavities hard and painless with no sensitivity - if so, no need to fill...Just keep very clean by swishing oils like virgin coconut oil, neem oil, tea tree oil before brushing teeth.

um, im not well versed in this stuff (dentine), but absolutely no pain or sensitivity on those teeth. i'll look into those oils. thanks

Quote
Do you eat organ meats every day, in moderation? Do you have access to vitamin D, either photosynthesised or supplemented to the tune of ~5,000-10,000 IU? What about vitamin K2 (WAP's "activator X") intake from livers, pastured eggs, butter oil and LifeExtension's synthetic Super K (1g per cap)? What about bon-building minerals for hurrying re-mineralisation along?

i eat organs pretty regularly: heart, liver, kidney, testicle. i get plenty of sun but not sure of my dietary intake of vitamin d. i eat lots of grass fed marrow and fat. and occaissionaly wild boar fat (which i hear is one of the richest sources of vitamin d). i also eat pastured eggs a couple times a week.

i've also been eating bone meal every once in a while along with the cartiledge i find on raw chickens.

so, no filling? i don't really think i need it. especially if it hasn't gotten worse in over a year. and honestly, i think it even got a little better because my dentist seemed a little confused when he looked at the new xrays (doh!). he seemed to be reassuring himself that i still needed them: 'yep, they [the cavities] aren't gone yet'. i don't know, the way he said it implied that they were diminishing...
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: yon yonson on May 15, 2010, 07:35:14 am
does anyone know of any studies that show that composite fillings are harmful? or anecdotal information?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 15, 2010, 07:59:53 am
...PaleoPhil and Lex (maybe others) have sealed/healed their enamel with raw zero-carb, although it's just not possible for me without negative effects, particularly constipation. I eat organ meats and minced fat with chunky meat every day (also, pastured egg yolks and high-vitamin butter oil with a D3 supplement), which has made a slight different, but not much - I think it takes time. I tried bone broths, which made a big difference but they trigger headaches (due to free glutamates in the gelatine). ....
I don't think it's necessary to go ZC to experience significant dental benefits. I don't agree with Stephan Guyuenet and Weston Price on everything, but this is one area where they are especially helpful. Fat-soluble nutrients like vitamins A, D3, and K2, plus minerals (especially calcium, magnesium and potassium) and avoiding liquid and concentrated forms of sugars like fruit juices and dried fruits seems to be especially helpful with dental issues. The fat soluble nutrients are especially lacking in diets which are heavy on fruits (especially acidic fruits like citrus and pineapple; whereas fatty, low-sugar fruits like avocado and coconut appear to be less of a problem and may even be helpful), grains, legumes or sugars and light on animal fats, meats, organs, fish, eggs and young greens. Not surprisingly, one of the worst diets for dental health appears to be a low-fat fruitarian diet (like Doug Graham's 80-10-10 nonsense). If you peruse the forums that advocate such diets you'll find plenty of complaints about dental problems (and much in the way of denials and advice to eat still more "sugary fruits"--that's right, as bizarre as it seems, they tend to advocate sugary fruits).
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 02:44:59 pm
I believe the emphasis is on ripe fruits, with higher sugar content and lower acid content - you can even taste this difference in vine-ripened tomatoes with their sweetness (although I don't grow/eat nightshades anymore).

If I leave fruits to go softer, I feel much less reaction in the mouth with the sodium bicarbonate pre-rinse, so it's important to ripen fruits before eating, even if it's not on the vine or whatever.

Also, the sugary fruits are preferable because they actually taste appealing, whereas coconuts (nice) and avocados (high in n-6 fats!) are pretty boring after the first few mouthfuls. Maybe home-blended coconut milk (or coconut cream) is preferable without all that shitty fibre.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on May 15, 2010, 04:36:33 pm
Thanks guys, thanks so much!

I so much appreciate all this info!  :-*


Tyler, you said you tried "instinkto". Did you tried cassia, too? I was eating cassia every day for about two years. Gave me very loose bowel movements etc. I wonder if this also demineralized me and so my teeth's too?
 :o about the raw dairy almost killing you.. do you mind if I ask, what happend!?
Inger
  No, I didn't ever try cassia. I wasn't properly Instinkto as such as I was eating smoked meats and the like(the books I got were very vague and I'd thought cold-smoked meats were OK, and didn't realise how processed the sushi boxes were etc.)

As for the raw dairy, it was a disaster. At first, I tried the primal diet minus the raw dairy and the raw veggie-juice as I didn't know of any source of raw dairy and didn't have a juicer at the time. This resulted in some health-benefits. I then added in the raw dairy and suddenly found that all sorts of nasty health-problems that had gotten slightly better, came back with a vengeance(crippling stomach-aches, bloodshot eyes, chronic fatigue, teeth about to fall out etc. etc.). Even worse, I became heavily addicted to the taste of raw dairy(the addictive opioids in dairy being responsible) and I would feel nauseated when trying to eat raw meats so that I could only eat very small amounts of them each day. I reckon that if I had continued on the primal diet, I would have been dead within a year or so given the nutritional deficiencies caused by raw dairy(and previous raw vegan experiences) - the decline each week was that bad.  In a way, though, the primal diet helped me to realise that dairy, raw or pasteurised, was the prime reason for all the health-problems I'd had in the past.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 05:41:10 pm
Touche on the dairy - same for me, whether pasteurised, raw or fermented...Teeth almost falling out...

One needs calcium/magnesium/phosphorous in balance, ideally.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: wodgina on May 15, 2010, 07:17:18 pm
All my fillings fillings ended up all falling out (I had 3 I think) over the last 4 years of eating raw meat

got them when I was around 22 when I used to go out and drink beam and coke and pass out without brushing my teeth.

The cavities sort of filled in and smoothed over. I actually lost a big chunk of my canine and thats filled as if the tooth knew how to regrow!? 

Quite amazing and at the time I didn't believe it myself but since Lex's bone scan and seeing Action hero turn into a new person I can believe it.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 15, 2010, 08:47:33 pm
@wodgina: You're RZC, right? Did you do anything special like organ meats every day as well?

No fruit acids for a long time must allow the teeth to completely recover from abuse, along with the constant vitamins.

Did you pat attention to mineralising, or just the minerals from the meat/fat/organs?

Sour mash is at least a good cause for destroying teeth though, unlike girly fruits!
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: wodgina on May 15, 2010, 09:29:40 pm
@wodgina: You're RZC, right? Did you do anything special like organ meats every day as well?

No fruit acids for a long time must allow the teeth to completely recover from abuse, along with the constant vitamins.

Did you pat attention to mineralising, or just the minerals from the meat/fat/organs?

Sour mash is at least a good cause for destroying teeth though, unlike girly fruits!

ha for sure

I've gone off the rails from RZC days ( 6 months ago) Cheats etc. I'm at 95% raw now.

I currently eat organs/marrow etc as well as jerky as I did in the past and tried azomite for a while not sure if this helped may try it again.

I do miss being able to drink sour mash and bounce back like I used to! but I know now if I drink  I will have to endure days of terrible anxiety and heart palpitations.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Ioanna on May 15, 2010, 09:50:14 pm
wodg - incredible about your teeth!!

are you saying this is diet alone?, or with supplements?

also, are you able to tolerate fruits any better these days? or will you be going back to zero carb?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 16, 2010, 01:52:53 am
...Also, the sugary fruits are preferable because they actually taste appealing, whereas coconuts (nice) and avocados (high in n-6 fats!) are pretty boring after the first few mouthfuls. Maybe home-blended coconut milk (or coconut cream) is preferable without all that shitty fibre.
The fruits with higher sugar content are indeed tastier, but my point was regarding dental effects. I find that sugary fruits, which I normally eat ripe, have negative dental effects on me, and even many 811 diet advocates--the biggest proponents of fruit of all--report the same negative effects.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 16, 2010, 02:58:30 am
I agree - it certainly seems to imply that fruit wasn't around most of the time...or maybe those 811ers with the problems had warped blood sugar control system dynamics (from excess PUFAs etc.).
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 17, 2010, 05:26:30 am
I've been reading a couple of interesting things today about refined fructose overdose (like in soda pops). Apparently, some propose that high triglycerides can prevent leptin crossing the blood brain barrier, meaning the leptin signals coming from the fat cells to say "stop eating" don't make it to the hypothalamus, so the obese ones keep guzzling soda pops and muching on whatever junk calories are close by, never fulfilling their leptin-controlled appetite.

We're talking superphysiological doses from HFCS in quantities, rather than that coming from a whole fruit - maybe something like apple juice is also problematic with its much more unbalanced fructose:glucose ratio (although a whole apple would not be problematic).

Hence, refinement, just as cooking, is not what reconciles with our true nature.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 17, 2010, 05:30:22 am
Another thing I was wondering...Any kind of sugar in my mouth causes nerve pain in my cavitated teeth.

Is it possible that sugar in the mouth can glycate tissues (i.e. the protein matrix) in the tooth if it doesn't have a protective enamel/dentine barrier? Maybe this is why RZC is necessary for tooth healing, as opposed to even VLC...

Does anyone have commentary? Are there any RVAFers that have healed tooth enamel, or is it just RZCers? I don't mean increase in bone density, I mean healing teeth...
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on May 17, 2010, 06:49:15 pm
All I can say is that going for a raw omnivorous diet and, more importantly getting rid of all dairy raw or otherwise from my diet, helped my teeth recover - they are now  very strong indeed. They had become very loose and very thin on SAD diets. By the time I went rawpalaeo, my teeth were so loose, with bleeding gums etc.(I could easily push my teeth back and forth a bit), that I was absolutely terrified of eating raw solid meats - I would have to buy raw ground meats instead so as to avoid even the slightest need to chew properly. And occasionally trying to eat things like raw tongue was an absolute nightmare as I was in constant fear my teeth would fall out. And there are other raw omnivores, even cooked WAPFers, who have claimed to have healed their teeth without going RZC.


Indeed, ironically, my own experiments with RZC led to my teeth rapidly deteriorating in health, becoming much thinner and weaker than before, so it was just as well I stopped those experiments in time.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: wodgina on May 17, 2010, 07:44:28 pm
wodg - incredible about your teeth!!

are you saying this is diet alone?, or with supplements?

also, are you able to tolerate fruits any better these days? or will you be going back to zero carb?

Diet alone although I did take Azomite for a while.

I can tolerate heaps of things once I start cheating, like I can hold my mobile phone to my ear which is painful when I eat 100% raw zero carb.

and yes I'm going back to the 100% raw zero carb thingy, got dandruff back plus feel so shitty
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: actionhero on May 18, 2010, 12:30:53 am
Does anyone have commentary? Are there any RVAFers that have healed tooth enamel, or is it just RZCers? I don't mean increase in bone density, I mean healing teeth...

Of the raw meat eaters I probably eat the most fruit daily/weekly (a guess from what I've read so far). I had 4 mm black spots on the surface of both last molars. It wasn't deep but there was some damage mostly because of ben&jerry's icecream/haagen dazs and cola from SAD era. The damage did not get worse on 100% fruitarian diet. I only experienced some mild sensitivity when eating dates. Others in the fruitarian/80/10/10 world were less lucky and their forums are filled with horror stories. Having said that there are also people who have been on that diet for years and never had any teeth problems.

But in my case they certainly were not healing, even when I introduced cooked meat later. Right now, six months after starting raw meat the black spot on my right molar is gone and slowly filling up. On my left side the black spot has shrunk to 2 mm and become thinner. I never went zero carb for more than one week and eat about 500-900 cal from fruit daily. Some days even 1800-2200 cal if I am doing a fruit only day. I do a zero carb day every couple days but not because of problems with teeth. So it's not just RZCers that are getting these results but my guess is they might be healing/regenerating much faster on zero carb. 
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Inger on May 18, 2010, 12:41:26 am
I believe it is the nuts that hurts your teeth's heaviest. Fruitarians eat little if any nuts, that might help. Dried fruits are also bad, I think.

I ate a lot of nuts at the beginning.  -[
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 18, 2010, 03:43:41 am
@Inger: I agree, completely. I ventured down this same path of nut munching, although the idea is to learn and adapt through direct experience - muss es sein? es muss sein!

@actionhero: Thanks for relating your experience. Do you consume fruits that're fully ripened, so as to minimise organic acids on the teeth? I've tested many fruits by swishing sodium bicarbonate in my mouth before hand and feeling the fizz sensation for different fruits, although there are few that actually don't create a fizz - ripe mango, ripe papaya, ripe melons, err...Most berries create a fizz and especially citrus fruit, of course! I try to avoid acidic fruit to spare my weak tooth enamel.

I have transparency at the edges of some of my teeth and very tiny chips due to various accidents, so maybe I was malnourished from early times. I eat liver, heart, kidney, marrow, bone meal + clay, muscle meats, different cuts of fat (minced or chunky) up to maybe 300g per day. I have noticed the teeth/jaw becoming more solid, but the cavities did not improve and the transparency/chips are still there with active nerve pain in some teeth. I also supplement D3 and K2, as well as consuming raw butter oil (the only neolithic food I consume in small quantities with no reactions).

I've had straightening braces to pull my massive fangs down (I'm a true carnivore!) and some x-rays, so maybe they harmed my teeth - who knows? I swish my mouth twice per day with VCO+neem before brushing.

Maybe it will take a bit longer than a year or so for me to undo the damage, but I'm here for the ride! It seems like the best approach is just to stick to the plan and enjoy what may transpire.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: actionhero on May 18, 2010, 05:19:13 am
Do you consume fruits that're fully ripened, so as to minimise organic acids on the teeth?

I do eat fully ripe fruit but I do this because that is how fruit digests best. I've eaten up to 4 kg of oranges in a day and did not have any teeth problems. But yeah there are lots of people who will get problems from even one orange. Only dates and raisins gave me sensitivity problems but I avoid dried fruit anyway and eat only fresh ripe fruit. Tooth healing is indeed possible even if you eat fruit but if they are giving you problems it might be a good idea avoid them or stick to those that you do well on. We don't know what healing priorities our bodies have. Your body might have other more important healing work to do so this is maybe why the teeth regeneration is a bit slow. What we can do is to give it the best possible raw material, nutrients and building blocks. The rest is up to the body to do its magic.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MrBBQ on May 18, 2010, 05:30:49 am
Hmmm, there is a context for healing and I do not know if I'm in context. I agree about priorities though - maybe minerals are being deposited on my legs and spine, who knows?!
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 18, 2010, 11:17:20 am
Of the raw meat eaters I probably eat the most fruit daily/weekly (a guess from what I've read so far). I had 4 mm black spots on the surface of both last molars. It wasn't deep but there was some damage mostly because of ben&jerry's icecream/haagen dazs and cola from SAD era. The damage did not get worse on 100% fruitarian diet. I only experienced some mild sensitivity when eating dates. ...
Yes, after being reminded of fruitarian dental issues by this thread I checked out a couple fruitarian forums yesterday to see how they're getting along and read a fruitarian complaining about dental problems while eating dates (which are extremely sugary in their typically dried form) and the others told him to keep right on eating the dates and other sugary fruits anyway, of course. Whenever someone reports problems from eating sugary fruits the answer is always to eat more sugary fruits. Of course, it's the answer to just about every problem in fruitarian forums.

811 fruitarians don't tend to recommend eating a lot of nuts because they believe fats should be limited to 10% of total calories, so it would be quite a stretch to attribute their dental problems to nuts. If they continue to have problems then they tend to recommend upping the calories (from sugary fruits). As a matter of fact, whenever anyone reports a problem they tend to recommend cutting out other foods like nuts and eating just sugary fruits. I've never seen any diet forums report as much dental problems as fruitarian forums--811 forums in particular. Once in a while one of them will notice the connection between the numerous dental problems and the high fruit consumption and consider reducing fruit intake, as with the date eater, but the others will talk them out of it. It's strange that more don't notice it--maybe they're just afraid of being criticized for making the connection?

Fruits aggravated my dental issues and dry skin and brought back some cystic acne even when I ate no nuts or any other plant food with them, but it seems like iodine is helping some. Actionhero, do you know if you have good iodine intake, adrenal function and thyroid function and do you think that could explain why you tolerate fruits fairly well? I'm amazed by the people who can do 811 for years without their teeth falling out (though I notice that many of them report using electric toothbrushes, waterpiks, etc.).
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: actionhero on May 18, 2010, 07:53:24 pm
Actionhero, do you know if you have good iodine intake, adrenal function and thyroid function and do you think that could explain why you tolerate fruits fairly well? I'm amazed by the people who can do 811 for years without their teeth falling out.

Well, if we're supposed to eat fruit (the one half of our diet, raw animals being the other) then it is only logical that one should have no problems with ripe fresh fruit provided that the body is in good health. Most of us have at least 25+ years of SAD damage to heal, we should not forget that fact. I don't know about iodine and thyroid function but when I used to eat greens like spinach and other vegetable crap I started to get cold at night and this only stopped when I cut out all greens. But this was in my fruitarian period.

Teeth problems are indeed one of the most common problems fruitarians experience along with feeling cold (we're tropical animals, it's normal), hair falling out (you're detoxing too fast, you need more cal from sweet fruit), disappearing sex drives (this is normal because we stopped eating evil hormone meat) and lots of women stop having periods just like anorexics. Most of these problems are because of lack of raw animal fat which is needed for optimal body chemistry and hormonal function (avocados and nuts don't seem to help). They come up with the most ridiculous rationalizations as to why they are having these symptoms. Full tilt delusion galore!
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MaximilianKohler on August 26, 2010, 07:47:11 am
Well, I am a natural bodybuilder/powerlifter, so I do not do zero carb dies. I eat about 3500-3800 calories a day just to maintain my LBM and fitness levels (I lift 5 days a week). Of the 3500-3800 calories that I consume, about 30% come from protein, 40% come from fat (mostly animal fat, filled in with some avocado and coconut fat), and 30% come from carbs. Sometimes my carb intake will go as high as 35-40% on special days or events, but it usually stays around the lower/moderate range (which is 30% or less). My main carb source is very simple: wild, raw honey and organic (mostly wild crafted/organic) fruit. I usually eat my raw honey post-workout or right before lifting weights only. The raw honey for my post-workout shake/meal is needed for an insulin spike in order to pull my body out of a catabolic state (lifting weights is catabolic). I try to make this low fat, high carb shake/meal.  So, for example, if I am consuming 3500 calories, with the macronutrient ratios adjusted for above, then 30% of my calories from carbohydrates would equal about 1050 calories. So, one serving of the raw honey that I eat contains about 60 calories and I try to aim for at least a few hundred grams of carbs for an insulin spike, so I'd say about 480 calories come from honey and then a few hundred more from wild bananas and/or berries, in conjunction with a raw lean protein source. Usually, when I am in a rush, I just throw in a bunch of organic eggs and blend them up with honey and fruit and that is enough for my muscles to prevent catabolism.

I heard on mercola.com that if you eat any type of sugar - fruits included - after your workout it completely stops your HGH(human growth hormone) production. Have you heard of this?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 26, 2010, 08:01:24 am
.... Teeth problems are indeed one of the most common problems fruitarians experience along with feeling cold (we're tropical animals, it's normal), hair falling out (you're detoxing too fast, you need more cal from sweet fruit), disappearing sex drives (this is normal because we stopped eating evil hormone meat) and lots of women stop having periods just like anorexics.
Heh, heh. Yeah, you did well in listing some of the most common of the problems they experience and the excuses they give for them. No matter what the problem, the answer is always "eat more sweet fruit", like a religious mantra.

For me, eating lots of animal fat still doesn't enable me to eat much meat and I'm a little curious about what the differences are among those who can. I think we all experienced some damage from the SAD. Dr. Harris didn't have that much damage from SAD, yet he still has trouble consuming more than a little fruit. I guess it's a mystery at this time.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on August 26, 2010, 04:33:44 pm
I heard on mercola.com that if you eat any type of sugar - fruits included - after your workout it completely stops your HGH(human growth hormone) production. Have you heard of this?
Sounds like a load of rubbish. One thing I noticed was that I did better re muscle-gain when weightlifting and eating a few raw carbs at the same time. During my RZC phase, I would end up as weak as a kitten, though.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 26, 2010, 09:09:04 pm
Sounds like a load of rubbish. One thing I noticed was that I did better re muscle-gain when weightlifting and eating a few raw carbs at the same time. During my RZC phase, I would end up as weak as a kitten, though.

Its true actually, HGH is elevated after a workout and insulin is an antagonist to hgh so more insulin means less hgh.  Some people recommend waiting 30 mins after a workout to eat carbs to get some GH production going, waiting longer then 30 mins is detrimental to muscle growth tho.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: TylerDurden on August 26, 2010, 10:51:43 pm
Its true actually, HGH is elevated after a workout and insulin is an antagonist to hgh so more insulin means less hgh.  Some people recommend waiting 30 mins after a workout to eat carbs to get some GH production going, waiting longer then 30 mins is detrimental to muscle growth tho.
The trouble is that muscle-rebuilding is a bit more complex than as portrayed above. Besides, one only has to look at RZC athletes to see that they just don't compare to standard(non-drug-using) weightlifters and athletes who eat carbs.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 27, 2010, 01:48:35 am
The trouble is that muscle-rebuilding is a bit more complex than as portrayed above. Besides, one only has to look at RZC athletes to see that they just don't compare to standard(non-drug-using) weightlifters and athletes who eat carbs.

I agree 100%, just saying that what mercola says is true.

Ketogenic diets generally don't work that great for body building unless your trying to cut.  The anabolic diet supposedly works very well tho, its 5 days of VLC/ZC and 2 days of high carbs to carboload.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MaximilianKohler on August 27, 2010, 01:12:53 pm
Damn I have no clue what you guys are talking about x_x

I'm hoping to eventually start lifting weights again if this raw diet can get me healthy, do you have any general recommendations and/or articles to read? I love fruit, I've just heard a lot of bad things about it like it's effects on insulin, HGH, nervous system, etc.. Is it pretty much necessary if I'm going to be lifting weights on a raw meat/fat diet?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 27, 2010, 07:50:35 pm
If your gonna lift weights your gonna need some sort of carb source.  Some might not agree but I personally don't think fruit is a very good carb source for post workout, your muscles can use very little if any fructose to replenish glycogen.  I personally eat a meal of cooked sweet potatoes post workout, I don't personally follow the whole all cooking is evil philosophy.  Really it could go both ways, I cook the sweet potato but I don't get the massive fructose overload. Pick your poison I guess? :)
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Hans89 on August 27, 2010, 08:10:37 pm
Bananas could be a good choice also.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MaximilianKohler on August 28, 2010, 01:10:56 am
what about green leafy vegetable juice, maybe with eggs too? or an avocado+egg shake?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: djr_81 on August 28, 2010, 01:37:48 am
If your gonna lift weights your gonna need some sort of carb source. 
No you don't.
Someone eating low or close to zero carb can lift just like someone eating omnivorous.
You might not bulk at the same rate but that wasn't the question.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 28, 2010, 01:39:09 am
what about green leafy vegetable juice, maybe with eggs too? or an avocado+egg shake?

Green leafy vegetables have very little carbs, same with eggs.  Stick to fruit for Post workout carbs if you want to stay raw
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 28, 2010, 01:42:13 am
No you don't.
Someone eating low or close to zero carb can lift just like someone eating omnivorous.
You might not bulk at the same rate but that wasn't the question.

I should have phrased it as if your gonna lift weights and recover right you need a carb source.  Sure you can lift on rzc(it doesn't make you a cripple does it?) but I don't think its optimal nor do most others who lift weights.  Muscles need glycogen and depriving them of it will hinder gains.  That's not to say that you could eat higher fat and adapt to using more fat for fuel but I still think your gonna need carbs eventually(i.e. anabolic diet)
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MaximilianKohler on August 28, 2010, 01:46:27 am
I would be lifting mostly for strength and athleticism, not to put on large amounts of mass. What do you think would be appropriate for me to eat before & after? I don't want to eat any fruit(avocados not included) as I've heard too many bad things about it.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: djr_81 on August 28, 2010, 01:49:15 am
I should have phrased it as if your gonna lift weights and recover right you need a carb source.  Sure you can lift on rzc(it doesn't make you a cripple does it?) but I don't think its optimal nor do most others who lift weights.  Muscles need glycogen and depriving them of it will hinder gains.  That's not to say that you could eat higher fat and adapt to using more fat for fuel but I still think your gonna need carbs eventually(i.e. anabolic diet)
I'll agree to disagree then.
I personally feel the human body is dynamic enough to adjust to whatever fuel source we provide it and build functional strength so long as simple things are met (a surplus of energy in, adequate protein to build, and enough sleep).
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 28, 2010, 03:03:51 am
I would be lifting mostly for strength and athleticism, not to put on large amounts of mass. What do you think would be appropriate for me to eat before & after? I don't want to eat any fruit(avocados not included) as I've heard too many bad things about it.

For athletism and strength your gonna need some sort of carbs to be optimal imo.  Don't be scared of fruit nothing wrong with eating it post work out or early morning.  Pure glucose(starches) sources are the most optimal but these require cooking.

You might get by on vlc doing athletic endeavors but it depends on what you do, how hardcore you go and how much do it.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on August 28, 2010, 03:04:56 am
I personally feel the human body is dynamic enough to adjust to whatever fuel source we provide it and build functional strength so long as simple things are met (a surplus of energy in, adequate protein to build, and enough sleep).

I would like to believe this is true but most people don't experience this.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MaximilianKohler on September 01, 2010, 04:28:34 am
clif do you have to cook the sweet potatoes? also, do you eat them before or after the workout? and how long before or after? thanks
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on September 01, 2010, 09:34:14 pm
clif do you have to cook the sweet potatoes? also, do you eat them before or after the workout? and how long before or after? thanks

I would cook them and eat them only after a workout.  I just gave them up yesterday tho because they started to constipate me, its weird at first it was all good then about 2 weeks in major constipation lol.  Clearly not adapted that well to starchy tubers.

I'm gonna be experimenting with plantains and green bananas soon so Ill keep you posted.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: MaximilianKohler on September 02, 2010, 03:12:40 am
So you only cooked them out of preference?

Oh, I see you said before "Pure glucose(starches) sources are the most optimal but these require cooking." Sweet potato is pure glucose? Why do they require cooking?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cliff on September 02, 2010, 04:31:21 am

Oh, I see you said before "Pure glucose(starches) sources are the most optimal but these require cooking." Sweet potato is pure glucose? Why do they require cooking?

Sweet potato is not pure glucose but its primarily glucose. Most raw starchy foods are only around 50-60% digestible, when you cook them they become around 95% digestible.

Some raw vegan people eat them raw dehydrated but I'm not really into that.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: CHK91 on December 31, 2010, 01:41:56 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjG5t4LN0jA

This interview had good information about fructose and effect on humans. I couldn't believe that I actually listened to the entire thing. It was worth it though. ;)
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cobalamin on April 22, 2012, 04:07:36 am
This interview had good information about fructose and effect on humans. I couldn't believe that I actually listened to the entire thing. It was worth it though. ;)

8:00... HFCS and refined sugar lack Vitamins. Vitamins are needed for the metabolism of fructose. So fruit is perfectly OK, well ripe fruit.

I would clarify not to eat fruit when digesting meat and vice versa.

Whats with the scare tactics?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Suiren on April 27, 2012, 10:43:10 pm
I have a fructose malabsorption (intolerance). BUT I can eat some natural fruits. Just not a whole lot. But it is true, fruits contain far less fructose than many other things.
HFCS gets me sick instantly.

I am not on a fruit diet or anything btw.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: danman on November 08, 2012, 04:58:06 am
Wow all this sounds too complicated for me. I'm looking towards eventually lifting weights again hopefully if this raw diet can get me healthy agaon. does anyone have any good recommendations and/or articles to read? I love fruit, I've just heard a lot of bad things about it like it's effects on insulin, HGH, nervous system, etc.. Is it pretty much necessary if I'm going to be lifting weights on a raw meat/fat diet?
Daniel from lewis-diet.com
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 08, 2012, 05:49:19 am
High Fructose Corn Syrup or HFCS should never be compared with real fruits.  Hfcs comes from gmo corn.  And goes through some secret usa processing.  It's in the movie King Corn.

Me and my family consume a good amount of real fruits local and in season and more likely organic via primitive farming methods.  Fruits are very nourishing and very hydrating and bring joy to our lives.

There is such a thing as overdosing on sweet fruit and any sane person can point it out.  For example my wife has candida issues with dandruff / scalp eczema and me and my mother in law point out that it may be linked with her voracious appetite for rambutan.  I would buy 1 to 2 kilos at a time for the family.  But she would buy 10 kilos at a time and finish the rambutan in 2 days with her 3 kids.  I find that obscene fruit sweet addiction.  Good thing the season is a short 2 months of every year.

Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Suiren on January 10, 2013, 05:02:36 am
Since changing my diet I have been able to eat (not that I do all the time) even larger amounts of fruit, and I am supposed to be Fructose Intolerant, or rather hae a Fructose Malabsorption. I wonder why that is?
Before I could only eat small amounts without problems.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: cherimoya_kid on January 10, 2013, 05:11:39 am
Since changing my diet I have been able to eat (not that I do all the time) even larger amounts of fruit, and I am supposed to be Fructose Intolerant, or rather hae a Fructose Malabsorption. I wonder why that is?
Before I could only eat small amounts without problems.

Paleophil regained his ability to eat fruit without problems by eating fermented raw honey.  Maybe it's the fermenting microbes in the honey that did that.

What kind of symptoms were you having?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 10, 2013, 08:31:12 am
Yes, I suspect that gut dysbiosis and imbalanced microbiota has much to do with this, and that we need our little micro-friends to optimally digest the fructose-rich treats of nature. Wild animals and hunter-gatherers have these little friends in abundance. We moderners tend to be deficient. Certain nutrients that moderners tend to be deficient in, such as zinc and minerals, also help.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: LePatron7 on January 10, 2013, 08:47:00 am
Yes, I suspect that gut dysbiosis and imbalanced microbiota has much to do with this, and that we need our little micro-friends to optimally digest the fructose-rich treats of nature. Wild animals and hunter-gatherers have these little friends in abundance. We moderners tend to be deficient. Certain nutrients that moderners tend to be deficient in, such as zinc and minerals, also help.

I've often wondered if RPDers who need low Carb are Carb intolerant because of microbial overgrowth / microbial toxins. After all most RPDrs here eat seaweed, which is high in polysacharides. A complex Carb structure similar to those in grains, beans, potatoes, etc.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Suiren on January 11, 2013, 05:46:11 am
Paleophil regained his ability to eat fruit without problems by eating fermented raw honey.  Maybe it's the fermenting microbes in the honey that did that.

What kind of symptoms were you having?

Usually a stomach ache (intestines), and if I really overdid it, I would get bad cramps and diarrhea. I usually knew when to stop, because I felt the effects almost instantly.
Been eating a lot of honey, but not fermented honey.

Maybe grains and such caused me to be unable to absorb it somehow?
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 11, 2013, 06:26:12 am
BTW, I still can't consume moderate to big amounts of certain fruits at one time without symptoms, so I'm still more sensitive than most to fruits and other carbs, but they are less of a problem for me.

I've often wondered if RPDers who need low Carb are Carb intolerant because of microbial overgrowth / microbial toxins.
And perhaps undergrowth of beneficial microbes, damage to the brush border of the intestines and other factors.

Maybe grains and such caused me to be unable to absorb it somehow?
Grains can not only promote microbiotic imbalance in the gut, but also cause damage to the lining of the entire GI tube by triggering an autoimmune response to that tissue, which contains proteins very similar to certain proteins in grains, influenza viruses and pathogenic bacteria (see the work of Loren Cordain). It's not surprising, since these proteins in grains are designed to destroy the intestines of insects that might otherwise feed on the grains.
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Suiren on January 11, 2013, 07:19:16 am
I heard about the damage to the GI tract, but that is also very interesting what you say about the insects!
I know doctors will say that people with celiac "disease" will suffer this kind of damage, but no one knows it happens to all of us.
I had to hold back a laugh when someone told me with a sad face that there is no cure for my disease (I tell strangers I'm celiac to avoid questions)

I haven't eaten very large amounts, but a bowl of grapes, one apple and one banana are no problem for example.

Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 11, 2013, 10:17:06 am
By cure they may mean "able to eat plenty of gluten grains again," as eating so-called "heart-healthy whole grains" is regarded as "normal" and "healthy."
Title: Re: Fructose
Post by: Suiren on January 11, 2013, 09:38:01 pm
Yeah, it is a blessing, not a disease. Your body actually tells you whats bad.