Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: William on October 04, 2009, 10:43:00 pm
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I have not found any enzyme difference.
I was looking for the difference between cooked (rendered) and raw fat, found these:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4995048/Fat-enzyme-explains-why-some-people-dont-get-flabby.html
http://www.fruitarian.com/ac/Enzymes.htm
So there's no reported dietary difference in fat enzymes, but some react to cooked fat.
The only thing I can think of on my own is that cooked fat may contain traces of overcooked proteins, this is why rendered fat is filtered through a double layer of paper towel.
Does anyone know of another difference?
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The links didn't address the fact that cooking destroys the enzymes even in fat.So the above 2 links are meaningless.
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what about fat-soluble minerals and vitamins?.. any literature on that?
if rendered at a low enough temp (but high enough to render efficiently), the fat itself (being highly saturated) is of the nutritional value as if raw?
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My rede is the the enzyme MGAT2 is not in the fat. It is made in the gut.
I don't know about fat-soluble minerals and vitamins, bu think that fat is the carrier of them, not the source.
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My rede is the the enzyme MGAT2 is not in the fat. It is made in the gut.
I don't know about fat-soluble minerals and vitamins, bu think that fat is the carrier of them, not the source.
If enzymes have to be provided by the body instead of from the food, then that simply means that the body becomes overburdened and wears out faster. Far better to rely on enzyme-rich raw foods than enzyme-deficient cooked foods, however fatty.
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Are there enzymes in raw fat? How about vitamins?
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Are there enzymes in raw fat? How about vitamins?
Enzymes are in all organisms, in a multitude. There's no reason to assume that fat is any different.As for vitamins, check under "raw suet" in the usda nutrient database(I'm not allowed to post a link to the correct table).
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I have not found any enzyme difference.
I was looking for the difference between cooked (rendered) and raw fat, found these:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4995048/Fat-enzyme-explains-why-some-people-dont-get-flabby.html
http://www.fruitarian.com/ac/Enzymes.htm
So there's no reported dietary difference in fat enzymes, but some react to cooked fat.
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The only thing I can think of on my own is that cooked fat may contain traces of overcooked proteins, this is why rendered fat is filtered through a double layer of paper towel.
Does anyone know of another difference?
The main effects of heating fat, I know of, is peroxidation of the unsaturated fatty acids. Heat increases tremendously the rate of the chemical reactions with oxygen. Oxidation already takes place (very) slowly at room temperature and this is what finally makes stored fat to become rancid after a few days or weeks or months depending on composition ( amount of unsaturated fatty acids, antioxidants, various "impurities" etc) , a well known phenomenon.
The polyunsaturated part of fatty acids is the most sensitive one whereas the saturated part is fairly stable up to 200° C.
A second adverse effect is the destruction or cis-trans conversions of fat soluble vitamins or antioxidants such as A, E, D etc
Rendering below 40° C essentially preserves them and avoids peroxidation.
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Tallow does not become rancid, not even after years at room temperature.
Rendering below 40° C is impossible. Lex Rooker has already covered this point.
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you can render under 40 C. You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor. then heat to 40 C. At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate. The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning. I can say more if needed. And that I know of no one actually doing the second part of this operation (the pressing or spinning, to remove the remaining available liquid portion.) If it was commercially available, I would certainly buy tons of it myself. Maybe someone will pick it up someday. Hey, they did it with olive oil, and now with salmon or fish oil.
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Tallow does not become rancid, not even after years at room temperature.
Rendering below 40° C is impossible. Lex Rooker has already covered this point.
You can render the fat by grinding it. Then, you only need to melt the fat at below 40°C, and filter it to separate the liquid fat from the hard material.
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you can render under 40 C. You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor. then heat to 40 C. At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate. The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning. I can say more if needed. And that I know of no one actually doing the second part of this operation (the pressing or spinning, to remove the remaining available liquid portion.) If it was commercially available, I would certainly buy tons of it myself. Maybe someone will pick it up someday. Hey, they did it with olive oil, and now with salmon or fish oil.
Tell us how you extract the remaining fat from the rest ?
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rendering = drying
drying = preserving
Dried beef fat, known as tallow, does not go rancid.
Rendering also separates the fat from connective tissue/proteins, which are poisonous after heating, as TD so verbosely points out.
If you keep fat at 40C it becomes rancid; Inevitably.
Please search Lex Rooker's post on this - he has done the research
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Heated polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) (a few percent of them even in tallow) become toxic by themselves after heating (no need to even invoke cooked protein traces) in particular because of oxidation. Since all natural sources of fat whether from plants or animals contain PUFAs that is one of the reasons for the adverse effects of heated natural fats.
Rancidity after storage at room temperature is less detectable by taste in tallow than in fish fat apparently because of the much lower initial amount of PUFAs.
Tallow as rendered beef fat at usual cooking temperatures is nevertheless already fairly toxic depending on heating time and temperature. Further oxidation takes place if not stored in airtight containers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallow
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Tallow as rendered beef fat at usual cooking temperatures is nevertheless already fairly toxic depending on heating time and temperature. Further oxidation takes place if not stored in airtight containers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallow
Remarkable that so many have lived on it without any report of illness, were that true.
We have centuries of history, and recent years of individual experiments, none showing any illness.
Wikipedia is corrupt.
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Well, my grandfather was a smoker for several tens of years without ever showing any apparent illness. Same for many people on neolithic foods.
Yet i certainly agree that tallow because of its small content of PUFAs is much less toxic than most other heated fats or oils.
So it is likely that most of us can fairly well cope with it if the other neolithic foods are abandoned.
Nevertheless heating any natural fat (or food) always more or less degrades its quality as a food, necessarily and for many reasons.
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I suppose it all depends on one's definition of health. If one defines health as having a very strong chance of getting heart-disease and many other related illnesses in later life, then tallow/heated suet is , I suppose, "healthy"!
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Saying something is so does not make it so, whether for heated animal fat or smoking.
This is a very good thing for those who have had heart disease.
Heart disease can be seen to be a deficiency of fat, and the accompanying inflammation is controlled by cigarette smoke, the best anti-inflammatory. I proved this on myself.
So much for modern myth, so well spread by the lying media and foolish medicine.
I was hoping for evidence in this thread. Disappointing, so far.
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rendering = drying
drying = preserving
That's downright misleading. Rendering involves cooking, plain and simple. One way to dry is to render, but drying and rendering are not synonymous.
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If rendering were cooking, it would be called cooking. Beware infection with TD's obsession.
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William, I don't mind your spouting babble about the supposed health-benefits of cigarettes or cooking(surprisingly similiar re damage to health as both contain heterocyclic amines, which are heat-created toxins) but please keep such far-out claims to the hot topics forum.
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If rendering were cooking, it would be called cooking. Beware infection with TD's obsession.
Very funny, William, as usual.
Rendering as well as cooking imply heating, which is the relevant physical phenomenon here. Heating to temperatures typically around boiling water or even higher.
And that in turn implies damage to the biomolecules.
No way to escape fom this reality. Nature is very stuborn and does'nt care about our semantic contortionisms intended to do so.
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So far, nobody has offered any functional difference between tallow and unheated fat other than laboratory work. We eat as we do for health reasons, and could use some honest evidence.
Objections seem much like those to smoking; superstition.
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So far, nobody has offered any functional difference between tallow and unheated fat other than laboratory work. We eat as we do for health reasons, and could use some honest evidence.
Objections seem much like those to smoking; superstition.
You're the superstitous one, given your nonsense claims attacking evolution etc.
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So far, nobody has offered any functional difference between tallow and unheated fat other than laboratory work. We eat as we do for health reasons, and could use some honest evidence.
Well, this might be true, but does'nt mean there are none. Not easy to single out a specific dietary factor such as tallow as the culprit when there are so many factors that contribute to health or disease, which are emergent phenomenons.
And again, as i said before, among heated fats tallow might well be the less toxic one.
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If rendering were cooking, it would be called cooking. Beware infection with TD's obsession.
If frying, steaming, baking, sauteing, broiling, boiling, searing and microwaving were cooking, they would be called cooking...wrong. Cooking is a broad term that refers to many sub actions, including rendering and all of the above.
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rendering = drying
drying = preserving
Dried beef fat, known as tallow, does not go rancid.
Rendering also separates the fat from connective tissue/proteins, which are poisonous after heating, as TD so verbosely points out.
If you keep fat at 40C it becomes rancid; Inevitably.
Please search Lex Rooker's post on this - he has done the research
I render below 40C. I don't render to preserve, and I suspect the other folks who render below 40C don't do it to preserve either. I do it to make a tastier product that I will eat more of, so I don't lose weight and am not tempted by modern foods, and so I have a convenience food I can grabu to instantly eat at home or bring on the road and to work and other social situations and eat without freaking people out. They would probably freak if they saw me eating what is clearly raw steak or raw ground beef and raw suet, but I can camouflage it by dipping jerky into tallow or covering raw ground beef with tallow or making it into pemmican. They don't know what it is then and I can just say pemmican or jerky with dip or a traditional Native American food and they aren't particularly interested at that point and so far have not inquired further--except one person asked me what the dip was and I said "You don't want to know" and laughed, and she never inquired further.
I do small batches and eat them up before they can go bad, as I have a local health food store that sells cheap grassfed suet. Lex makes huge batches of pemmican and has to preserve them, which is why he renders above 40C.
I'm still trying to work out the best method of doing this and am interested in any effective processes that others develop to render suet below 40C. I also continue to eat some raw suet and am hoping I eventually develop a taste for it. I'd also like to buy a heavy duty meat grinder so I can grind my suet and bones, but my budget is tight right now, especially after buying expensive Dr. Ron's foodlements.
Many people who go RPD or ZC are trying to lose weight, rather than gain it, so they eat only one or two meals a day and many are pleased by resulting weight loss. I find when I do that, that I also lose weight, but it's not good in my case, because I'm trying to gain and maintain.
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A butcher can grind suet for you; I got it that way once, but it was the kind of fat that reeked of DPW.
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Phil - Why would you need a specialist grinder for raw suet? I simply throw big chunks of raw suet into my food processor with the chopping blades attached and pulse it for around a minute. It works wonderfully well and produces a product resembling grated parmesan cheese. I then sprinkle this over my beef or lamb and enjoy! I'm not sure that I could stomach suet any other way but it's no problem eating it like this.
Likewise, however, I am also still wondering about the possibilities of melting suet at low temp for making 'raw' pemmican. As I mentioned on another thread, my attempts to melt it in my dehydrator have, thus far, proved fruitless. I avoid cooked fats so have not made pemmican yet.
Does anyone know the melting point of suet?
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you can render under 40 C. You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor. then heat to 40 C. At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate. The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning. I can say more if needed. And that I know of no one actually doing the second part of this operation (the pressing or spinning, to remove the remaining available liquid portion.) If it was commercially available, I would certainly buy tons of it myself. Maybe someone will pick it up someday. Hey, they did it with olive oil, and now with salmon or fish oil.
hi van, i'm thinking about grass fed beef fat. regular commercial beef fat is very dangerous. once you mention about "back fat' in another content. what is that? thanks.
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Phil - Why would you need a specialist grinder for raw suet? I simply throw big chunks of raw suet into my food processor with the chopping blades attached and pulse it for around a minute. It works wonderfully well and produces a product resembling grated parmesan cheese. I then sprinkle this over my beef or lamb and enjoy! I'm not sure that I could stomach suet any other way but it's no problem eating it like this.
Likewise, however, I am also still wondering about the possibilities of melting suet at low temp for making 'raw' pemmican. As I mentioned on another thread, my attempts to melt it in my dehydrator have, thus far, proved fruitless. I avoid cooked fats so have not made pemmican yet.
Does anyone know the melting point of suet?
i like your posts. by the way, your food processor from which brand?
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mention about "back fat' in another content. what is that?
I'll interject. As I understand it, animals grow a layer of fat in Winter, and use it up in Summer. Also, as an animal ages over the years, it grows a layer of fat under its hide/skin on the animal's back. It's this fat. For me much better than suet so far. I just discovered it though, and haven't gotten either fresh yet.
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Thanks for the kind compliments raw. My food processor is a Krups KA850 as seen here:
http://www.krups.co.uk/All+Products/Food+Processors/Products/Food+Processor+-+Serie+8000/Food+Processor+-+Serie+8000.htm (http://www.krups.co.uk/All+Products/Food+Processors/Products/Food+Processor+-+Serie+8000/Food+Processor+-+Serie+8000.htm)
It was not the cheapest available food processor but is a very high quality machine. However, for the purposes of grinding raw suet I expect any similar type of food processor would be quite adequate.
Quote from: van on 05 October 2009, 21:23:23
you can render under 40 C. You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor. then heat to 40 C. At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate. The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning. I can say more if needed.
van, can you elaborate on this process. Are you stating that the melting point of raw suet is under 40 C? I've tried melting ground suet for many hours in my dehydrator at temperatures up to 120 F with no evidence of reaching melting point whatsoever. Of course, this could be a simple case of the food molecules themselves not reaching the desired temperature. Similarly, I recall from my raw vegan experiences that the Excalibur company in collaboration with vegan 'guru' Victoras Kulvinskas demonstrating that foods could be dehydrated at temperatures up to 145 F for the initial couple of hours as it's only the surrounding air temperature reaching this maximum during this period.
How do you heat your suet van whilst ensuring, absolutely, that it does not surpass 40 C?
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I think it is the fat that sits on top of the area of meat called new yorks and ribeyes. But not exactly sure. Have been pointed out with carcasses that it sits on the back of the animal.
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Phil - Why would you need a specialist grinder for raw suet? I simply throw big chunks of raw suet into my food processor with the chopping blades attached and pulse it for around a minute. It works wonderfully well and produces a product resembling grated parmesan cheese. I then sprinkle this over my beef or lamb and enjoy! I'm not sure that I could stomach suet any other way but it's no problem eating it like this.
Cool, thanks! I was actually thinking of the grinder more for the bones and for making Lex's type of mix some day, since it seems to work well for him, but I'm glad there's another method for the suet. Up till now I had been chopping it finely with my sharp Henkel's kitchen knife, but that sounds like a better method. I have a semi-high powered blender that I fine works even better than food processors, so it should do the job. I'm surprised the suet doesn't heat up and glob together or something.
Likewise, however, I am also still wondering about the possibilities of melting suet at low temp for making 'raw' pemmican. As I mentioned on another thread, my attempts to melt it in my dehydrator have, thus far, proved fruitless. I avoid cooked fats so have not made pemmican yet.
Does anyone know the melting point of suet?
It's very low. When it gets into the upper 70s indoors my tallow starts melting on its own and I find that suet melts at the "warm" setting in my crock pot (and other people on the Web do it this way). I'm looking forward to trying it with grated suet.
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Cool, thanks! I was actually thinking of the grinder more for the bones and for making Lex's type of mix some day, since it seems to work well for him, but I'm glad there's another method for the suet. Up till now I had been chopping it finely with my sharp Henkel's kitchen knife, but that sounds like a better method. I have a semi-high powered blender that I fine works even better than food processors, so it should do the job. I'm surprised the suet doesn't heat up and glob together or something.
It's very low. When it gets into the upper 70s indoors my tallow starts melting on its own and I find that suet melts at the "warm" setting in my crock pot (and other people on the Web do it this way). I'm looking forward to trying it with grated suet.
I used to chop mine with my expensive japanese Tojiro kitchen knives but it was such a chore. With the increase in my fat consumption and the bulk meal preparation method that I now employ I tend to prepare roughly 600g of suet at one time. That's a lot of chopping! :) One minute in the processor - it's done and is beautifully fine. I hope it works for you! I would expect your blender would do an equally good job. I have a VitaPrep 3 but haven't tried using this for chopping suet as I suspect it would blend it into a mush rather than chop it.
Thanks for your comments on the melting point. I must persist in my efforts to achieve the melting of suet. Please keep us posted with your own experiences with grating/melting it!
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I've never actually thought of chucking the fat in the food processor, mainly because I thought it would get clogged and burn the motor out or something (this kind of thing often happens to me!).
Currently, I'm using a hand-cranked cheapo mincer, which is made from some kind of composite material and suckered to my worktop (it's come unstuck a few times and gone flying). I've noticed that the auger squeezes the fat so intensely that the sub-structure of it breaks down and then it's extruded into the usual mince profile. Ultimately, I throw this minced product into a large glass jar, which I submerge in a pan of simmering water. Apparently, the squeezed/extruded fat is more fractionated, so it melts very quickly and easily and I simply pour the liquid (not hot, just enough to melt) through a sieve/strainer to remove the undesirables. I'm then left with a product without its non-fat bits that's compactly stored and easily accessible for re-melting or thinly slicing (like a block of cheese) - akin to rendered, but of course, sub-violently-thermodynamic prepared.
I find that auger+extrusion mincing facilitates this melting method - does the food processor method allow the same end product?
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Also, I've backheeled suet recently in my search for a nicer fat, which is more like cream/butter and gladly, I've discovered a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?
Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to (I think I used to go in the shop and initially ask for "back fat", which is a term I borrowed from Fat of the Land, but they never knew what I meant)...In that case, if you're in the UK, simply ask for "top brisket fat" (I can usually secure up to 1.5kg per week).
Just my two penneth/cents...;-))
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a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?
Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to
Fatback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatback) is a common food in the southern USA (though never raw and always pork, from my experience).
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Fatback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatback) is a common food in the southern USA (though never raw and always pork, from my experience).
I've seen that in a small general store. It was in their freezer. I think it came from a nearby hog farm. I think people of Southern descent cook it with vegetables.
When I elaborated on her (raw's) term "back fat", I meant the (raw) buffalo fat that I bought. It was frozen because I just bought it about a month ago, but they only get it from the animals in Winter. Probably a more appropriate term is the "hide fat" (from under the buffalo's hide).
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No clogging at all in the food processor MrBBQ. In fact, it puts no strain at all on the machine and I expect could be equally easily achieved on a cheap, low power food processor rather than the one I have. It doesn't leave the same end product as that which you describe. There is no waste. Simply a finely grated, dry powder-like substance but with the grain size more reminiscent of grated parmesan cheese.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with the mincing/melting of suet. I will add this to my array of methods to experiment with. I have plenty in stock so may even do that this evening. I would be extremely happy if I could start making truly 'raw' pemmican for hiking/camping trips and it's beginning to sound as though it may be a possibility with your suggestions along with those of Phil and others. Perhaps we should start a separate topic dedicated to this subject?
In response to your other comments, fatty brisket joints are actually the main meat that I buy. It is 100% grass fed and usually comes with vast quantities of fat which, I agree, is absolutely delicious. It hadn't actually crossed my mind that this kind of fat would be available separately from buying the meat cuts themselves. Thanks for the tip. I will enquire with my supplier. Have you tried bone marrow? That is the creamiest/tastiest raw animal fat that I've tried but I find that it's far too difficult and time consuming to extract substantial amounts so just enjoy it as an occasional treat.
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Also, I've backheeled suet recently in my search for a nicer fat, which is more like cream/butter and gladly, I've discovered a fat cut that's creamier and with more of a yellow tinge. My farm/butcher calls this fat "top brisket fat", which usually comes in cuts almost as long and slender as my arm. Personally, I find this fat to be (consistently!)the creamiest and most delicious fat of all - has everyone tried this fat, with mixed opinions (given that it seems to have a relegated position alongside suet)?
Maybe this is the "back fat" that RawZi was referring to (I think I used to go in the shop and initially ask for "back fat", which is a term I borrowed from Fat of the Land, but they never knew what I meant)...In that case, if you're in the UK, simply ask for "top brisket fat" (I can usually secure up to 1.5kg per week).
Just my two penneth/cents...;-))
The brisket is between the front legs; back fat is under the hide on top at the rear, just in front of the tail.
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back fat is under the hide on top at the rear, just in front of the tail.
Thank you, not the same, then, as "fatback"
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Nice one - thanks for elucidating! ;-)
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OK guys. I've now had a chance to experiment with suet this evening - isn't my life clearly a thrill-a-minute?!! ;)
I prepared 4 batches of suet.
Batch 1: minced by hand through my meat mincer and then spread thin on a silicon plate and put into the dehydrator set to 145 F
Batch 2: finely chopped in the food processor, likewise spread thinly on a silicon plate and put into the dehydrator set to 145 F
Batch 3: finely chopped in the food processor, likewise spread thickly on a silicon plate and put into the dehydrator set to 145 F
Batch 4: I added some more of the food processor chopped suet into a plastic screw-top beaker and submerged in hot water in a similar manner to how I used to melt my raw butter
Results: Both the minced suet and ground suet which had been thinly spread melted sufficiently for pouring and filtering after 17 minutes. The thickly spread ground suet was not even close. There was no difference evident from the processing method employed. Immediately, I measured the temperature of the resultant oil and it max'd at 128 F. Too hot! After much more time, Batch 4 remained completely solid.
So, I then used a fresh Batch 2 with the only difference being a dehydrator setting of 135 F.
This took 45 minutes to melt sufficiently for pouring and filtering. The temperature measured of the oil was 105 F. Acceptable as a raw oil.
My conclusions: Food processor ground suet works fine. Spreading the suet meal thinly is required to expose maximum surface area to the surrounding warm air currents. The amount of suet required for a small quantity of resultant oil was more than expected which, in addition to the limited tray surface area available in the dehydrator, could prohibit bulk home production.
Recommendations: I hope to test melting the ground suet another time using some form of bain marie / double boiler.
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you can render under 40 C. You must first grind the fat, as with a food processor. then heat to 40 C. At that temp. the liquid will have already started to separate. The rest can be separated with a pressing or centrifugal spinning. I can say more if needed. And that I know of no one actually doing the second part of this operation (the pressing or spinning, to remove the remaining available liquid portion.) If it was commercially available, I would certainly buy tons of it myself. Maybe someone will pick it up someday. Hey, they did it with olive oil, and now with salmon or fish oil.
It's been done with butterfat for centuries. Properly made ghee is not "boiled off" but gently coaxed at low temperatures from the butter and then refined as van describes. There are different grades of ghee, the most refined is the finest/best. The highly refined liquid is the "butter oil" that Price wrote about.
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It's been done with butterfat for centuries. Properly made ghee is not "boiled off" but gently coaxed at low temperatures from the butter and then refined as van describes. There are different grades of ghee, the most refined is the finest/best. The highly refined liquid is the "butter oil" that Price wrote about.
my mom always makes the finest ghee at home. we never buy that from the store.
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I also use a food processor and then place the blended back fat in a bowl, and then in a large pot of 105 f water. It melts, or at least one half of it does. My only concern is that I believe there is a significant amount of oxidation that occurs when processing and then heating. The food processor whips a fair amount of air into the fat, and then the heat accelerates oxidation. I want to soon buy a meat grinder believing that it will not put as much oxygen into the fat. Similar to the 'research' having been done on high vs low speed juicers that grind vs spin at high speeds. May sound a little to precautionary, but then there are some who believe that pufas oxidize even in the body or bloodstream. I know that saturated fat is far more stable, but I know how much different the fat tastes on the outside of chunk of fat vs. the inside when sitting in the fridge for several days or so. The outside exposed areas certainly have an unpleasant taste, if not bad. Very similar to the taste of getting your mouth washed out with soap as a kid. Soap back then was made with animal fat. Animal fat that had oxidized.
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pufas oxidize even in the body or bloodstream.
I understood that the importance of eating PUFAs raw and whole was so they would oxidize in the body, creating a detoxifying chemical reaction? Otherwise they are worthless-to-dangerous to eat.
Avoiding eating oxidized food is a big concern of mine. I have techniques I use while juicing to minimize oxidation (you can see oxidation easily with juice due to the color change). I also don't chop, press, or stir any food when I can help it. I hadn't thought of this regarding processing animal fat (which I haven't done but was considering). We don't eat ground meat, either, for this reason.
Ghee is primarily saturated fat, and though it's heated and strained, I feel pretty confident about eating it.
I wonder which animal bodyfats are most saturated, thereby safest to process? Perhaps suet is most highly saturated, because it's most solid at room temp. The more "jelly" the fat is the more mono & poly fat it is, if you go by the "room temp" guideline.
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Raw PUFAs are fine. Unfortunately, the anti-PUFA brigade love damning all PUFAs by only selectively quoting studies done on highly processed, cooked PUFAs.
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Ghee is primarily saturated fat
...but the "butter oil" derived from further refinement is not solid at room temp like a saturated fat should be. Hmm.
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I tend to disagree from experience. First raw wheat germ, eaten years ago, goes rancid in the fridge in a week. This was from a wheat germ that was milled, shipped and placed in a health food stores fridge within two days. One week later, when the new batch would come in, you could sample the one week old versus the newly milled germ. HUGE difference. The week old left a burning sensation in the back of the mouth. The other is a similar experience ordering flax oil directly from Barleans, shipped the day after they cold pressed their flax into oil. Put it in the fridge, not freezer, and within weeks it has turned. IN the freezer it keeps much longer. Same experience with fish oils. The common denominator here is processing; crushing open natures protective cell barrier, allowing oxygen to get to the oils. Nothing burns the back of my throat more than Blue Ice cold liver oil. Can't help but be suspect that oxygen is also involved during the fermentation process, like when they put the livers in the barrel, entrapping air etc.... No other ferments as in saurkraut has this effect.
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My only concern is that I believe there is a significant amount of oxidation that occurs when processing and then heating.
I agree, van, that this is a very valid concern! I don't eat ground meat either for the same reasons but, strangely, I hadn't considered this aspect regarding processing of suet. I need to think about this as I'm effectively grinding all of my suet in bulk for my meals for 5 days at a time! The least I should do is freshly grind for every meal as I had always considered in the past when grinding meat, flour etc. Obviously, from an oxidation perspective, best not to do it at all!
Nothing burns the back of my throat more than Blue Ice cold liver oil. Can't help but be suspect that oxygen is also involved during the fermentation process, like when they put the livers in the barrel, entrapping air etc.... No other ferments as in saurkraut has this effect.
Yes, Blue Ice burns the back of my throat too but I've still been taking it regularly.
I wonder which is the most detrimental to health - not having the particular nutrients or exposing ourselves to potentially oxidised fats?
...but the "butter oil" derived from further refinement is not solid at room temp like a saturated fat should be. Hmm.
When I've purchased Green Pastures butter oil in the past it was solid at room temperature. I've never made my own. Which butter oil are you referring to livingthelife?
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I agree, van, that this is a very valid concern! I don't eat ground meat either for the same reasons but, strangely, I hadn't considered this aspect regarding processing of suet. I need to think about this as I'm effectively grinding all of my suet in bulk for my meals for 5 days at a time! The least I should do is freshly grind for every meal as I had always considered in the past when grinding meat, flour etc. Obviously, from an oxidation perspective, best not to do it at all!
Fat this is bad for us is called rancid, not oxidized, we can smell or taste it and nobody in their right mind will eat it. Still, we are concerned about proper nutrition, so oxidized fat should not be eaten - so how do we know that it is oxidized?
It looks like fat has traditionally been used to prevent oxidation or spoiling of food, always when the water has been driven out of it.
Yes, Blue Ice burns the back of my throat too but I've still been taking it regularly.
I wonder which is the most detrimental to health - not having the particular nutrients or exposing ourselves to potentially oxidised fats?
The "oxidized" concern is starting to look like a red herring, when we should IMHO be concerned about purity of fat.
Pure fat is so important - it's an essential nutrient after all - that we are designed so that we can smell and taste the wrongness easily.
Since we get all but one essential nutrient from proteins, it makes sense to take a close look at the other one, namely fat, but I have not yet seen any credible scientific study of what to avoid.
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I haven't either, so I tend to go with what tastes right to me. start ignoring that and there's not much left to trust.
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Fat this is bad for us is called rancid, not oxidized, we can smell or taste it and nobody in their right mind will eat it.
I agree that rancid fat is best avoided William but, to be honest, I thought fat was rancid because it had become oxidised?! So, I've just googled it. According to wiki, there are 3 forms of rancidification. One of these is, indeed, oxidisation or as they put it :
Oxidative rancidity occurs when the double bonds of an unsaturated fatty acid react chemically with oxygen
The others are hydrolytic and microbial.
What did you mean by purity of fat?
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When I've purchased Green Pastures butter oil in the past it was solid at room temperature. I've never made my own. Which butter oil are you referring to livingthelife?
The ghee I buy often has a golden liquid on top of the jar at room temp, sometimes quite a bit of the jar is liquid. It's grassfed organic ghee made by an Indian man according to Ayurvedic principles... Price wrote about using "butter oil" and didn't mention having to warm it when he administered it with cod liver oil.
The "cheapy" ghee I've seen in stores is much whiter and very solid.
I've just googled around and found no explanation for the liquid. I'm stumped.
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That's interesting. Perhaps it's related to the production temperature or fatty acid profile/nutritive value (ie grass or grain fed). Certainly, the GP butter oil was deep yellow and very solid. I don't recall it ever becoming liquid in form. It was delicious although hideously expensive! I may experiment making my own butter oil from the raw butter I buy for my partner to help determine any differences in state. I don't consume butter myself anymore but your ghee sounds like a good source.
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I was thinking now that it may be the monounsaturated fat that separates and remains liquid. Butter is pretty high in mono fat. Mono is a very healing fat, which is why olive oil gets such a good reputation, so that would explain its popularity with Price as well.
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What did you mean by purity of fat?
Not tainted/polluted or whatever.
I've dried fat for 4 days at 95F, it still tasted good, so I must have super special stuff that doesn't oxidize.
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If the fat doesn't oxidize and taste more or less bitter it means that it is essentially saturated fat i.e. with very little PUFA's. Saturated fatty acid molecules are quite stable with respect to light, oxidation and even temperatures up to 200 °C.
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I tend to disagree from experience. First raw wheat germ, eaten years ago, goes rancid in the fridge in a week. This was from a wheat germ that was milled, shipped and placed in a health food stores fridge within two days. One week later, when the new batch would come in, you could sample the one week old versus the newly milled germ. HUGE difference. The week old left a burning sensation in the back of the mouth. The other is a similar experience ordering flax oil directly from Barleans, shipped the day after they cold pressed their flax into oil. Put it in the fridge, not freezer, and within weeks it has turned. IN the freezer it keeps much longer. Same experience with fish oils. The common denominator here is processing; crushing open natures protective cell barrier, allowing oxygen to get to the oils. Nothing burns the back of my throat more than Blue Ice cold liver oil. Can't help but be suspect that oxygen is also involved during the fermentation process, like when they put the livers in the barrel, entrapping air etc.... No other ferments as in saurkraut has this effect.
While Blue Ice product does burn my throat that does not necessarily mean that it is oxidised.
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If the fat doesn't oxidize and taste more or less bitter it means that it is essentially saturated fat i.e. with very little PUFA's. Saturated fatty acid molecules are quite stable with respect to light, oxidation and even temperatures up to 200 °C.
Eureka! So beef fat rendered at 170°F to 220°F (77°C-104°C) should be safe if pure. My guess is that the problems reported with tallow are caused by insufficient filtering. I know that I react badly to the solids (cracklings/scruncheons), and have noticed that there is a white sediment when I re-heat the tallow.
Maybe this sediment is why Ray Audette said to heat tallow twice?
The EFAs we need are supposed to be in cell walls, and should not be heated so assuming we get all we need from dried meat, the lack of them in tallow does not matter.
The burning sensation from Blue Ice is why I will not use the stuff.
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The burning sensation from Blue Ice is why I will not use the stuff.
While Blue Ice product does burn my throat that does not necessarily mean that it is oxidised.
Has anybody ever queried this with Dave from Green Pastures or enquired further regarding his processing methods? He's never been particularly friendly or forthcoming in my dealings with him in the past so I don't feel inclined to try myself! :D
Eureka! So beef fat rendered at 170°F to 220°F (77°C-104°C) should be safe if pure.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that William. Perhaps fine from an oxidation perspective if the fat used is, indeed, low in PUFA's but what about all of the other issues with cooked fats?!
I checked NutritionData for raw suet details and it seemed low in PUFAs compared with saturated fats. It would be nice to have data specific to grass-fed suet which, I'm sure, would greatly differ from the NutritionData grain-fed suet information - allegedly containing significant amounts of K2, Vit A etc. After much internet searching I'm no further forward on that though. Does anybody have links to where such data might be found?
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I suggest that we keep in mind that we live in a low-fat world, and if there is not anything wrong to be discovered about cooked fat, it will be created.
Note the stuff that TD has found attempting to demonize cooked fat, for example.
I haven't found any credible reason not to eat it, as it is not a source of minerals, enzymes, vitamins or proteins. It is just a source of fat.
Self-criticism could be in order, after all the anti-fat propaganda isn't done because it doesn't work - it has obviously had an effect on most people, possibly including some here.
Back on topic, paleolithic campsites commonly had cracked skulls, and recently gov't.s have practically banned brain consumption, doubtless fearing that it would do our minds some good. So what is different about brain fat?
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I'm glad that this thread has evolved to such an extent while I've been in absentia...
Thanks for doing the productive experimentation Michael, which is really appreciated. My best results have always begun with the hand mincer.
I've spoken to Dave @ Green Pasture before and he informed me that due to the preservative/lactic acids in the fermented CLO, they could not even get a lipid peroxide reading after the bottle was left open outside the fridge for a long period. Ultimately, I suppose it's just like consuming "high" meats, which must somehow have microbially-preserved elements including the fragile/volatile fatty acids.
Does anyone here consume small quantities of plant-based PUFAs (hemp, flax, borage, evening primrose, blackcurrant seed)?
Also, I've often made my own ghee in an earthenware pot with either curry leaves or green rooibos added to minimise oxidation (that's traditionally what was done). Naturally, one can use hemp/cannabis leaf to great effect. Also, it's said that fat-dissolved herbs (like in these ghee preparations) cross the cell membrane better, although I couldn't cite any studies or anything.
I would love to make "raw" ghee from grass-fed butter without a centrifuge like GP uses, if anyone has the secret! I'm off non-raw ghee for the meantime because I can secure nice animal fats.
I consume 2ml of fermented CLO per day - the tingle is from the lactic acid (or other organic acids) content. Does anyone take krill oil?
Also, does anyone consume that AFA (blue-green algae)?
So is the consensus to keep fat in as large chunks as possible in the fridge to minimise exposed surface area? Currently, I'm mincing all of my fat for quick access (consumed within a week or so).
Also, one thing that's rarely mentioned is oxysterols (oxidised cholesterol)...These must be a major accumulation in long-stored non-raw pemmican or ghee...Anyone done much research into oxysterols?
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Also, one thing that's rarely mentioned is oxysterols (oxidised cholesterol)...These must be a major accumulation in long-stored non-raw pemmican or ghee...Anyone done much research into oxysterols?
Easily done, try scroogle: "consumption of oxysterols or "oxidized cholesterols" are now emerging as the underlying drivers in cardiovascular disease."
Which is more nonsense from the low fat loonies.
Cardiovascular disease became a problem when people began to eat low fat, before that they gobbled cooked fat with impunity. Demonizing cooked fat is not so easy.
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William, can you possibly elaborate/elucidate please?
If we're concerned (in our so-called nutritional excellence) about AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs, maillard products/aromatic hydrocarbons/HCAs etc., why aren't these other oxidation molecules of worthwhile consideration?
Isn't *fresh, unheated* (and from good soil) the way to go when you're trying to clear silent inflammation while at the same time delivering/uptaking the nutrients to facilitate healing?
Long-stored ghee, powdered milk (maybe even the whey powders that the low-fat people like) and powdered egg products had considerable impact on the tissues according to the histologists, so maybe oxysterols aren't so benign - how did you form your kinesthesis for these molecules? ;-))
I realise that there're those in their ivory towers and those with profit to make, but nevertheless, I'm interested in your reasoning...
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Furthermore, I don't know how much anyone here subscribes to the electronic nature of the contents of their plate, but doesn't cooked food (with its mildly/pronounced toxic payload) deliver electron-deficient molecules, as well as depleting spare electrons (toxins rob electrons) and anti-oxidant stores? Cooked-up molecules must be the basis for some inflammation...
I suppose cooking (along with soaking, fermenting etc.) could be considered a form of pre-digestion, but its associated apparatus and end-products could observably be deemed least natural (there's no other form that applies high temperature, except mildly in the case of fever or something like that).
The apparatus of cooking I suppose is more of an epigenetic prosthesis, but how well this reconciles (currently) with the human genome is playing itself out, of course.
I have no reason to articulate this verbiage, other than to invoke a deeper, more interesting response from you (William), possibly with a wider context.
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I have no reason to articulate this verbiage
You're not kidding?! Obviously demonstrating my poor education but I had to get the dictionary out for that one MrBBQ! ;)
I agree with what (I think!) MrBBQ was saying though William and would also appreciate elaboration of your comments.
Thanks for doing the productive experimentation Michael, which is really appreciated. My best results have always begun with the hand mincer.
I've spoken to Dave @ Green Pasture before and he informed me that due to the preservative/lactic acids in the fermented CLO, they could not even get a lipid peroxide reading after the bottle was left open outside the fridge for a long period. Ultimately, I suppose it's just like consuming "high" meats, which must somehow have microbially-preserved elements including the fragile/volatile fatty acids.
Does anyone here consume small quantities of plant-based PUFAs (hemp, flax, borage, evening primrose, blackcurrant seed)?
You're welcome! Likewise, I'm finding this a very interesting thread on what I, at least, consider a vital subject.
Thanks for sharing the information from your conversations with Dave@GP. That's reassuring to hear if it's credible. With my very limited knowledge on the subject I could appreciate how the lactic acid could play a protective role.
I used to consume flax, borage and EPO and even got to the point where I bought a low-temperature oil extraction device. This enabled me to buy (with plans to grow my own) borage seeds and create my own fresh, raw high GLA oil. It produced an oil unrecognisable to the best quality raw commercial oils. I tend to avoid all vegetable oils now. Yes, the machine - like many of my other expensive gadgets - sits redundant! :)
I would love to make "raw" ghee from grass-fed butter without a centrifuge like GP uses, if anyone has the secret! I'm off non-raw ghee for the meantime because I can secure nice animal fats.
I did have a milk/cream separator which may have done the job but it is no more unfortunately. I'll experiment with different methods. I'll let you know if I crack this one!
I consume 2ml of fermented CLO per day - the tingle is from the lactic acid (or other organic acids) content. Does anyone take krill oil?
I seem to recall that Tyler is taking the Krill oil. Maybe he can confirm this?
So is the consensus to keep fat in as large chunks as possible in the fridge to minimise exposed surface area? Currently, I'm mincing all of my fat for quick access (consumed within a week or so).
I get the impression that is the general consensus MrBBQ. That is certainly the opinion I have thus far formed from this discussion. Likewise, I've been bulk processing up until now and consuming within 5 days. Today was the first day I've started processing the suet for individual meals and, I must say, it's already proving a real pain with regard to time, extra preparation & clean up work, increased complexity preparing meals. Therefore, I'm keen to nail if this change is absolutely essential.
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Haha, Michael, you're truly an experiential melting pot of perfectionism...Quite amusing how simplicity is usually/ironically the eventuality (although the meat+fat+water equation equals muscle cramps, rapid heart rate and one or two other unbalances for me, which I'm currently hoping will resolve when I decide to do it for a week or two again).
Gladly, I've changed to a different farm recently, with even better quality grass-fed meat at almost half the price, so my budget is more accommodating now (anyway, that's off-topic).
Like I said, the verbiage was appropriate self-deprecation, although I can't resist those voices sometimes.
I reserve judgement on the matter of these plant oils. I consume them as fresh as possible (pressed to order) in very small amounts daily. I recently started experimenting with Black Cumin Seed oil, which initially in 1ml doses (measured with a syringe) invoked a potent global feeling of wellbeing.
Do you know how it's possible to completely separate the milk solids from the oil without heating or an expensive centrifuge/spinner?
Would you be interested in selling the low-temp cold-presser? ;-))
Actually, I'm enjoying GP's raw ghee along with the GP CLO and NK??? krill, but other than the ghee, does anyone know any potent sources of K2 from fresh animals? I've been lacto-fermenting liver in jars of fizzy water kefir, although I don't think it's long enough to manufacture these varying quinones in the so-called sacred fermented CLO.
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I've been lacto-fermenting liver in jars of fizzy water kefir, although I don't think it's long enough to manufacture these varying quinones in the so-called sacred fermented CLO.
It's good to know I'm not the only crazy one in this country conducting these regular in-house experiments! :)
I'm glad to hear you're getting some benefits from the plant oils. I would be reluctant to part with my oil extractor as I may later get back into experimenting with borage etc when I have some land to grow vast quantities of seeds. As you can probably tell - I do tend to gather many weird and wonderful machines. Maybe it's simply OCD?! A profound observation that my intention is actually simplicity! ;D I'd be more than happy to lend you the extractor as I'm often lending out my gear (and it extends well beyond kitchen appliances!) to friends. Of course, it'd only be viable if you're nearby. I'm in Norwich, Norfolk. Where are you MrBBQ?
Do you know how it's possible to completely separate the milk solids from the oil without heating or an expensive centrifuge/spinner?
Unfortunately, not at this point in time. I do have a fantastic fine coffee filter that I intend to test and I'll let you know if I find any solutions.
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William, can you possibly elaborate/elucidate please?
I tried pemmican and lived, and better than before. Millions have done likewise. That beats all the nay-sayers moaning about Maillard molecules, AGEs etc.
Bad reactions to properly rendered animal fats are idiosyncratic.
Re the electronic nature of our plates - tallow is an insulator. I've forgotten how to find the dielectric rating, but it works anyway.
BTW cigarette smoke is a most powerful anti-inflammatory, I read.
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Yet this is a raw forum, William, so wouldn't it be more in harmony with the forum to at least give a fully raw diet a chance for a few weeks, or perhaps not spend so much time promoting rendered tallow and poo-pooing Maillard molecules, out of respect for the forum's objective? For example, Lex eats pemmican with tallow rendered above 40C, but he doesn't claim it's superior to his raw mix. And I say this as someone who hasn't noticed the huge differences between raw and cooked that some others have reported.
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If harmony requires orthodoxy, few of us belong here, and nobody has proven that pemmican is not paleo.
I would much rather discuss a different fat than respond to the endless anti-fat posts.
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I tried pemmican and lived, and better than before. Millions have done likewise. That beats all the nay-sayers moaning about Maillard molecules, AGEs etc.
The claims re pemmican have been few and far between and are all unverified, scientifically(and, as we've shown countless times on this and other raw forums, people do far, far better on raw animal fat than on pemmican). It is also simple nonsense to deny that AGEs and other heat-created toxins cause harm, given the mass of scientific evidence flatly rejecting your notions re heated animal fats, pemmican or otherwise.
BTW cigarette smoke is a most powerful anti-inflammatory, I read.
More childish nonsense. Cigarette-smoke contains heterocyclic amines which, just like the heterocyclic amines in cooked animal foods, cause inflammation:-
http://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/23/1/7.full
In future, please confine promotion of pemmican to the hot topics forum where it belongs - either that, or at least have the grace to routinely acknowledge that it is a 2nd-rate unhealthy food by comparison to raw animal food/fat.
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and nobody has proven that pemmican is not paleo.
Pemmican is most certainly not RAWPALAEO, only having been eaten after the advent of fire. This is a rawpalaeo forum, not merely a palaeo one.
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To some extent, I appreciate the pragmatic counter-ideology and outright personal efficacy that you're playfully presenting William, although are you referring to pemmican as a means of surviving or thriving?
Did you notice typical systemic healing manifestations after transitioning to cooked meats/fats?
Also, I'm int'rested in your dismissal of the oxysterol case. I realise that most of these half-baked studies are useless and biased, yet you can't deny that these in-vivo studies on our rodent friends demonstrated a histologically-absolute deleterious effect on tissues at the cellular level.
The cigarette smoke assertion is non-relevant in this context, is it not? After all, we're not looking to treat/manage inflammation (like other pharmacological anti-inflammatories), but simply to eliminate its basis (that is, digging one's own grave with one's teeth). Isn't tobacco a member of the nightshade family anyway, and as such pro-inflammatory (not to mention the radioactive soil it's grown in and nasty compounds it's complexed with). Yet again, I'm requiring more elaboration/elucidation because you've stimulated my interest again...
Once again, we can only look to nature as a guide (even in the context of paleo bushcraft/tooling) - life begets life...
If one's interest is longevity (that is, neither rotting nor rusting), one may consider eating one's flesh without violent thermodynamics / oxidative intent. ;-))
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Did you notice typical systemic healing manifestations after transitioning to cooked meats/fats?
You have missed the point even more than the obtuse TD. I will try to draw a map.
I have eaten raw meat for 10 years, but did not put my heart disease into remission until I began raw zero carb.
This (raw zc) has also completely cured the chronic back pains from an old back injury, which doctors consider incurable.
I did this by eating only pemmican, impossible on raw meat as I have had too many bad reactions to it (the well known "stop" first described by anopsologists) and can't stand the needed amount of fat, which gives me diarrhea when fresh.
We are here because nothing but else worked to cure some terrible disease which is otherwise incurable, not to slavishly follow an assumed description of an unknown diet, which is BTW badly described - note TD's remark Pemmican is most certainly not RAWPALAEO, only having been eaten after the advent of fire.
when he knows how long we have had fire.
If it works I will use it, and so will any other desperate or sane person who gets a fair description - this my objection to the constant anti-fat remarks which claim that tallow is as harmful as cooked fat. This claim is nonsense, and could persuade some not to try the cure they need.
This is a wicked thing to do.
I've already pointed out that rendered fat is not the same as cooked fat, but to try to make it clear again, properly made tallow contains none of the harmful substances known to exist in cooked fat, such as heated proteins and water.
I am not aware that anyone has detected Maillard molecules in properly made tallow, same for heterocyclic amines, AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs or any of the other products of cooking PROTEINS, the reason for that is that there is no protein in tallow. Cooked or otherwise.
There are no credible studies that show that tallow could be harmful, this agrees with my experience and that of others, so I must conclude that the fat molecules in tallow are functionally identical in the human body to those in pure raw fat.
Those who have had a bad reaction to pemmican probably did not adequately filter out the solid bits, which are poisonous in my experience, or some other mistake in preparation.
Paleolithic teeth show tiny scratches, believed to be caused by eating something containing tiny rock fragments/dust. This is most likely the result of powdering jerky with stones to make pemmican.
We are here for healing, not for ill-informed vilification.
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I have eaten raw meat for 10 years, but did not put my heart disease into remission until I began raw zero carb.
This (raw zc) has also completely cured the chronic back pains from an old back injury, which doctors consider incurable.
I did this by eating only pemmican, impossible on raw meat as I have had too many bad reactions to it (the well known "stop" first described by anopsologists) and can't stand the needed amount of fat, which gives me diarrhea when fresh.
You've also frequently mentioned in the past your inability to obtain grassfed meats and your consumption of (very unhealthy) grainfed meats - no wonder you had bad reactions to it. I also note that a lot of ZCers seem to advocate cooking if they also consume grainfed meats(grainfed meat is so unappetising when raw). As for individual differences re your inability to digest, you appear to be in a rather small minority, implying that there are other possible reasons for not handling raw, perhaps your individual health issues etc.
We are here because nothing but else worked to cure some terrible disease which is otherwise incurable,
Not true. We members are here because all other diets, including your cooked, zero carb diet example failed us miserably in mild to life-threatening ways, destroying our health. So, even if we are to believe your assertion for your own case, there are multitudes of us here who have the exact opposite experience, especially newbies, who might be wrongly discouraged from trying rawpalaeo as a result of such listening to such notions.
not to slavishly follow an assumed description of an unknown diet, which is BTW badly described - note TD's remark when he knows how long we have had fire.
We have had cooking for only a mere last 10% of the entire Palaeolithic era(250,000 years), the rest of that time, our Palaeo ancestors were eating raw meat not cooked meat - come to think of it, even after that point, numerous hunter-gatherer tribes were, of necessity, still eating large amounts of raw animal foods(Inuit are a classic example of such a raw/cooked mix). Our diet is therefore essentially more "palaeo" than the pemmican-diet you peddle. Plus, 250,000 years is not enough to adapt, that's only 12,500 generations to adapt to a type of food(ie cooked food) that is radically different from previous kinds of food that it would take far longer to adapt to it than any other kind of (raw) diet - one only has to look at the archaeological record, even just switching from raw fruit/veg to largely raw-meat diets involved several stages, each lasting several hundred thousand years. Cooked food would take much longer to adapt to(if ever) as it's not just a different type of raw food but something entirely different.
If it works I will use it, and so will any other desperate or sane person who gets a fair description - this my objection to the constant anti-fat remarks which claim that tallow is as harmful as cooked fat. This claim is nonsense, and could persuade some not to try the cure they need.
This is a wicked thing to do.
What is truly satanic is for someone to deliberately deceive newbies into believing that cooked animal fat is OK, especially when so many come to this diet with past health-issues because of that particular type of food. We've already shown numerous studies proving that all cooked animal fats contain multiple heat-created toxins, regardless of whether they consist of tallow or any other kind of cooked animal fat.
I've already pointed out that rendered fat is not the same as cooked fat, but to try to make it clear again, properly made tallow contains none of the harmful substances known to exist in cooked fat, such as heated proteins and water.
If you're trying to suggest that raw saturated fat isn't affected by cooking, that's just absurd. As I've shown in previous examples , it is quite possible for cooked high-fat foods to contain large amounts of toxins. As shown in this study, butter, when heated, forms more advanced glycation end products than virtually any other food, and it's very high in saturated fats:-
http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf
I am not aware that anyone has detected Maillard molecules in properly made tallow, same for heterocyclic amines, AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs or any of the other products of cooking PROTEINS, the reason for that is that there is no protein in tallow. Cooked or otherwise.
You're forgetting that even tallow contains heat-created toxins; such as oxidised cholesterol as shown in the following study:-
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00070a016#
Paleolithic teeth show tiny scratches, believed to be caused by eating something containing tiny rock fragments/dust. This is most likely the result of powdering jerky with stones to make pemmican.
Never heard of this before. I take it there is no study backing this. As for dust, Stefansson pointed out how Inuit teeth were substantially worn down by the dust/grit found in their fish(due to winds carrying such grit, I believe). In other words, there are plenty of more suitable explanations for such wear and tear, if any, other than pemmican.
*Moving to hot topics forum as the subject is really about cooked fat as opposed to raw, zero carb*
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William, I - for one - am not anti-fat and am genuinely interested in your ideas and perspective. I hope my questioning is not interpreted as vilification.
I'm glad for you that, in seeking the truth, you found a food which restored your health. That's wonderful! Like you, I've been eating raw meat for almost 10 yrs. I am fortunate in that it works for me quite well, however.
....did not put my heart disease into remission until I began raw zero carb.
.... I did this by eating only pemmican, impossible on raw meat as I have had too many bad reactions to it (the well known "stop" first described by anopsologists) and can't stand the needed amount of fat, which gives me diarrhea when fresh.
Did you mean zero carb William as, of course, pemmican is certainly not raw (as we would define it on this forum)?
.. my objection to the constant anti-fat remarks which claim that tallow is as harmful as cooked fat.
But tallow IS cooked fat in that it is heated above 104 F William, surely?! Filtering out the proteins does not change this fact. When you talk of 'properly made tallow', are you saying that it's not heated above this temperature?
I am not aware that anyone has detected Maillard molecules in properly made tallow, same for heterocyclic amines, AGEs, re-arranged PUFAs or any of the other products of cooking PROTEINS, the reason for that is that there is no protein in tallow. Cooked or otherwise.
Now, this part I understand what you're saying and am interested in your point. If the only concerns we have with cooked/rendered fat (tallow) are protein-related (such as AGEs) then I can see, of course, the benefits of filtration leaving pure fat.
Your argument is based on the fact that damaged proteins are removed from the final product which, most definitely, is going to have it's benefits and - as long as the proteins are COMPLETELY removed - then, I assume, AGEs are no longer an issue. You'll have to excuse my ignorance but with my consumption of raw paleo I haven't bothered reading up on the other products of cooking - Maillard, heterocyclic amines,re-arranged PUFAs etc. Like AGEs are due to sticky glucose molecules attaching to proteins, are these other toxic products ONLY related to proteins which are subsequently removed?
I must conclude that the fat molecules in tallow are functionally identical in the human body to those in pure raw fat.
In my view, lack of studies to prove it is not the same as the fat molecules being identical for cooked/raw fats. Even if all of those toxic products of cooking that you mentioned and that Tyler frequently refers to ARE all protein related - is there not the possibility that we have simply not discovered issues with the fat molecules? In a similar manner, I'm sure there was a time when AGEs etc were not yet discovered and we, therefore, had no studies proving cooked proteins were toxic.
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I wasn't looking for a point, necessarily - merely to stimulate further elaboration/elucidation, which you kindly fulfilled, thanks. ;-))
I'd agree that it's what we've not observed that's the oft-critical factor, which is ultimately why personal efficacy and intuition should prevail, along with maybe some time-honoured traditions.
I put all this non-raw pemmican-orientation down to umami-love, haha. ;-))
What would your typical zoologist feed his captives, I wonder?! It would be interesting to observe the impact of pemmican trials on other carnivorous mammals with a relatively shorter lifespan than humans. Maybe somebody already can cite such studies (or oversights on the part of animal keepers)...
I suppose that all ideologies/dogmas crumble with time, so like I said previously, the truth will become self-evident for each individual as nature deals with them in its truest symbiosis, hehe...Notwithstanding, everyone subscribes to their own cosmology!
Efficacy for all, however it chooses to be...;-))
For my personal amusement, on this matter of adequately-filtered tallow, I see some hopefuls appropriating bleached-white (bleach being the operative chemical) kitchen towels/napkins as their "fine mesh", as opposed to something like unbleached organic fairly-traded cotton...It subtly elucidates the kind of quality assurance that some "artisans" bring to their burgeoning connoisseurship in the matter of fine cuisine. Talk about the paleorati...
So what kind of toxic molecules do we think might be complexed with the rendered fats that make it through the fine mesh, or are we of the opinion that cooking-related toxins aren't fat-soluble in this tallow substrate?
My interest is peeked even more now...
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Being a fully fledged member of the Paleorati, I would most definitely be using unbleached organic fairly-traded cotton MrBBQ!!! ;)
Very funny post, thanks. You express yourself most eloquently.
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...We are here for healing, not for ill-informed vilification.
Heh, heh. :D I like having you here, William, because you rarely fail to bring a smile to me face. I was just making a friendly suggestion that you are free to discard as you wish.
Am I imagining things, or are your posts becoming even more witty and incisive? Are you experiencing an increase in mental clarity and power? I'm not just flattering--my guess is you are.
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What would your typical zoologist feed his captives, I wonder?! It would be interesting to observe the impact of pemmican trials on other carnivorous mammals with a relatively shorter lifespan than humans. Maybe somebody already can cite such studies (or oversights on the part of animal keepers)...p
My info comes from studies and vague anecdotal reports from zoo employeees/directors. It seems that animals very easily develop cancer from eating cooked foods(yes, even tallow, in 1 or 2 cases as shown previously). I'll put in the various studies below in a short while:-
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T88-45WYNRP-N&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1109090918&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d8c56cd494fbdb0872e93c3bf839a6a7
http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/20/12/2690
There are multitudes of such animal studies done re heat-created toxins such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons/AGEs etc. None that I know of involving pure carnivores, simply because rats and mice make better lab animals than others.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/5/1247
As for zoologists and zoo animals, I'm afraid that perusal of sites for zoo animal nutrition shows that they far prefer to feed their wild animals on dismal highly processed cakes/pellets of refined foods, which are even worse than pemmican, if that's possible(pemmican already being a highly refined food in and of itself)- a minority do feed their wild animals on raw whole carcasses. They claim that this feeding of processed foods is due to the animals not necessarily selecting a balanced diet if presented with a wide variety of their natural foods(I suspect that a healthy diet being too expensive is the real reason), and they claim that meats/fruits and seeds do not contain enough calcium in the diet, which, as we've seen in our case, is a load of rubbish(at least as regards raw meat/fruit, 9non-sprouted)seeds having antinutrients).
There have also been numerous cases of zoo animals dying after receiving processed foods from passersby and reports re zoo animals dying from eating processed foods:-
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/856.html
So what kind of toxic molecules do we think might be complexed with the rendered fats that make it through the fine mesh, or are we of the opinion that cooking-related toxins aren't fat-soluble in this tallow substrate?
My interest is peeked even more now...
I think it's clear that oxidised cholesterol is 1 type of such a toxin. I would be interested in studies on rendered(as opposed to generally heated) fats, if only to counter the usual nonsense from pemmican-eaters, but they are likely to be few and far between as more and more people, worldwide, avoid cooked animal fats of all kinds due to the endless scientific studies damning them. I think it's safe to say, though, that it's absurd to suggest that raw animal fat is wholly unaffected by cooking, toxin-wise, given that cooking is such a harsh process(indeed any food will eventually become blackened and toxic after constant high levels of heat through cooking, no food is immune).
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Heh, heh. :D I like having you here, William, because you rarely fail to bring a smile to me face. I was just making a friendly suggestion that you are free to discard as you wish.
Am I imagining things, or are your posts becoming even more witty and incisive? Are you experiencing an increase in mental clarity and power? I'm not just flattering--my guess is you are.
That's funny as I was thinking the same thing. Your posts do seem to have changed William. I've always enjoyed your posts and found them most interesting and informative. But, there seems to be a new dimension to them now. Is this something you're aware of? What is the source or motivation of this?