Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Wai Dieters => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on May 05, 2008, 06:31:45 pm
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I live in the Philippines and we have so many many lovely fruits.
Fruits rock much better than veggies.
I used to do exclusive wai for 2 months, but not the eating schedule.
Call me lazy. I just want a few meals a day.
I added raw beef and cooked pork because I needed variety, it was getting pretty boring just limited to raw egg yolks and raw fish.
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How's it working out? Do you have friends or family that share your diet with you? What kinds of fruits are there in the Philippines that I might not have seen in an American grocery store?
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i have followed the WAI diet almost 100% for 8 months. I originally got on the diet to improve my skin. This diet did wonders for my skin but i eventually started running into problems and i started to be extremely fatigued, etc.. it seems the fruit was getting to much for me.
but its a great diet for those who thrive on lots of fruits, unfortunately i due poorly on fruits.
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I live in the Philippines and the fruits are abundant, grown organic and wild.
This is why I can eat a lot of fruit safely.
Just google on Philippine fruits or check out flickr.
In season now are atis, green indian mango, watermelon, melons, santol, avocados, guavas, yellow mangoes just finished, next month come the durians and always in season are papayas, pineapples, 4 different bananas and coconuts and there are other lesser known, wild and non-commercial fruit like balimbing and aratilis.
Since we are an archipelago we have lots of ocean fish, many types. This is why my diet is more wai diet. But I added beef, goat and some chicken for variety.
We don't buy imported fruit because they are likely sprayed, chemicalized, irradiated, etc. I suggest you buy local fruits too. If I were in the USA, I wouldnt buy Philippine mangoes, coconuts, bananas or pineapples. I would get sick from the pollution, the pesticides and chemicals they put in those for-export fruits.
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I live in the Philippines and the fruits are abundant, grown organic and wild.
This is why I can eat a lot of fruit safely.
Just google on Philippine fruits or check out flickr.
In season now are atis, green indian mango, watermelon, melons, santol, avocados, guavas, yellow mangoes just finished, next month come the durians and always in season are papayas, pineapples, 4 different bananas and coconuts and there are other lesser known, wild and non-commercial fruit like balimbing and aratilis.
Since we are an archipelago we have lots of ocean fish, many types. This is why my diet is more wai diet. But I added beef, goat and some chicken for variety.
We don't buy imported fruit because they are likely sprayed, chemicalized, irradiated, etc. I suggest you buy local fruits too. If I were in the USA, I wouldnt buy Philippine mangoes, coconuts, bananas or pineapples. I would get sick from the pollution, the pesticides and chemicals they put in those for-export fruits.
What do the following fruits look and taste like, please:- atis, santol, guavas, bambiling and aratilis taste like? I've never had them before but I may have had durian(I think) once - what does durian taste and look like, just in case I didn't taste it, after all? Thanks
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atis:
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Atis.html
guavas: (bayabas)
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Bayabas.html
santol:
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Santol.html
Balimbing:
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Balimbing.html
Aratilis:
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Aratiles.html
Durian:
http://www.stuartxchange.org/Durian.html
All the fruits have a unique taste. The taste is as the fruit is named.
Durian smells bad to most people, but it always smelled really good to me and those who love it. The taste is absolutely great and it is something we save up money for because Durian is expensive in Manila. But it is cheap in the south where it is grown like Davao City.
The vegan guru David Wolf describes durian this way in his book:
"Ideal Foods
Good, fresh durian must be one of the most incredible edibles on Earth. Once, the editor of Nature’s First Law radical raw-food magazine Just Eat An Apple, Fred Patenaude, and I were passing by an Asian market in San Diego, we stopped in and, sure enough, they had fresh, ripe, durian! I bought the ripest durian available. In the car, Fred and I split the durian. It was ambrosia. The taste was so light, so subtle, so powerful that it immediately sent us into an altered state. While we ate, I told a story to Fred. Afterward, I looked over and Fred had not heard a word I said. He was in outer space. I could not reach him – he did not want to be reached. That is the power of the durian!
The durian fruit of southeast Asia contains incredible fat and sugar, putting us right at the midpoint between the two. Added with green-leafy foods, we can live on durian alone, at least for some time. A raw-foodist once told me he believed durian and raw cannabis constituted humanity’s most natural foods. I thought that was interesting."
I think Thailand makes the best durians, I tasted some thai durian when I was in jakarta indonesia and people were all lined up in that store that had a big sign announcing: "Thai Monthok Durian for Sale!"
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No, obviously I've never had durian before. Interesting pictures. It just goes to show what limited selection there is of fruit available in supermarkets, despite global trading.
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I found frozen durian in an asian supermarket (in Canada). I liked it. It did have a strong smell, but I wouldn't call it "bad". I've eaten it only once, to try it. I agree that one should eat local and not imported things.
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Wai Diet- High in fruit; low in a limited selection of animal foods; raw vegetables and dairy are forbidden.
Any kind of fruit? Ripe? Can you have honey? Are cooked vegetables included?
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There are two versions of the Diet and some controversy to boot.
http://www.freeacnebook.com/contents.htm
There is the free acne book and then there is The Sample Diet which has become a separate Diet unto itself.
Wai the Woman was more involved with The Acne Book, which was I believe was the first incarnation of The Wai Diet. But her then boyfriend RRM decided to take The Sampl Diet, which includes no 'MUNCH Foods' and make it the mainstay of The Diet. This after Wai kind of disappeared off the forums and the scene as it were. It's rummored, or was, that they are no longer together.
I lost 40lbs following Wai's version. I ended up disagreeing with how RRM had taken over and was not quoting the original book acuratly. It was around that time The Sample Diet was made into it's own thing. Sadly, RRM left a sour taste in my mouth- ehh that doesn't sound right :o and I left the scene myself. Still pop in once in a while to cause some trouble -\
I also disagreed with the Orange juice, sugar and olive oil drink that is a very big part of RRM's way of getting adequate energy. And I personally could only eat one to two sweet fruits a day before I started gaining weight. And sadly the thought of eating a tomato and cucumber salad, which I once truly enjoyed nearly every day, now makes me want to gag.
I do think the Free Acne Book with With Wai is terrific and interesting and if you haven't read it I recommend it.
Best wishes,
Avalon ;D
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the philippine, south asian, tropical pacific ocean scene makes me think that their foodstyle is more lemurian than cro-magnon
no wooly mammoth or bison
perhaps from a previous inter-glaciation period than the cro-magnon?
when i relocate to borabora i'll be enjoying durians galore & coconut water (no coconut oil, please)... then fresh caught swordfish, shark, shellfish... then wild pig & goat...
what a life!
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woops
i meant to say south-east-asia, including sri-lanka
india is different; i know that really well
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As in lemurs? Lemurs eat bamboo.
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lemuria (mu)
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Diet drinks and weight loss don't necessarily go hand in had. I've seen research showing diet sodas actually promote weight gain, not weight loss. In the next 2 minutes.
Diet Drinks :
1. Stevia Water (http://"http://www.theweightlossmiracle.com/")s
Look, plain water probably doesn't excite you. It doesn't for me either. I like to have a nice sweet taste with my drinks. Problem is, sugar and man-made sugar substitutes suck and are bad for you. The way around this is to use Stevia. It's a NATURAL sugar substitute that's actually sweeter than sugar.
2. Protein shakes
This is a true diet drink even though you won't see it on the label. These fill you up moderately and are loaded with healthy protein which feeds your muscles, which in turn burn off lots of calories BECAUSE your muscles burn up 4-8 times more calories than your fat.
To put it simply, if you're not having protein shakes daily, you are not maximizing your weight loss.
Use these 2 diet drinks and weight loss will happen... it's as simple as that.
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You practice the Wai Diet?
Diet drinks and weight loss don't necessarily go hand in had...
Use these 2 diet drinks and weight loss will happen... it's as simple as that.
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Hi guys i am new here guys did u know that green is very help full for weight loss. Try green tea i hope you will get a better result.
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Studies have shown that even thinking about sweet foods causes your insulin levels to rise.
The brain can't tell the difference between a natural and artificial sweetener. I don't mean YOU can't tell the difference,
I mean that when the sweet taste buds are stimulated, the brain makes insulin. This means that artificial sweeteners
may actually be worse than normal sweeteners because your body makes insulin and then there is nothing for it to
react with so it all goes towards making your cells more insulin resistant. Or at least that's how the theory goes.
There needs to be more research on this, but of course there is tons of money to prove Nutrasweet is safe and almost
none proving that it isn't.
Cheers,
Paul
Diet drinks and weight loss don't necessarily go hand in had. I've seen research showing diet sodas actually promote weight gain, not weight loss. In the next 2 minutes.
Diet Drinks :
1. Stevia Water (http://"http://www.theweightlossmiracle.com/")s
Look, plain water probably doesn't excite you. It doesn't for me either. I like to have a nice sweet taste with my drinks. Problem is, sugar and man-made sugar substitutes suck and are bad for you. The way around this is to use Stevia. It's a NATURAL sugar substitute that's actually sweeter than sugar.
2. Protein shakes
This is a true diet drink even though you won't see it on the label. These fill you up moderately and are loaded with healthy protein which feeds your muscles, which in turn burn off lots of calories BECAUSE your muscles burn up 4-8 times more calories than your fat.
To put it simply, if you're not having protein shakes daily, you are not maximizing your weight loss.
Use these 2 diet drinks and weight loss will happen... it's as simple as that.
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of course, we all know about green tea. how about you about your raw diet!! by the way, i'm bangali and currently living in usa. i'm thrilled to see that one more bangali like me. well, you will be surprised to see yourself after a few yrs to continue this lifestyle. idon't know living in bangladesh, how you'll be eating healthy. our social lives are very different. well, wish you the best and you can email me sittul@yahoo.com. thanks
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I'm not sure that agenwe2009 is on a raw diet yet. I think they googled the word diet, as in weightloss, and just posted here for that reason.
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Super Slim Pomegranate is a revolutionary weight loss product made popular worldwide. Package includes 30 capsules. PACKAGES WITH SILVER ON BOTH SIDES ARE FAKE! The authentic capsules are are packaged with green foil on one side and silver on the other. Beware of sellers that lie to you about all silver packaging. The fake all silver packaging is not effective, so don't waste your money. You can get the authentic capsules on take2daydiet@gmail.com :)
Super Slim Pomegranate, an incredible diet capsules! I bought it from www.take2daydiet.com and have been taking this product for 6 days. I have lost 7lbs!!!! It really helps you control your appetite and eat smaller portions. The ingredients of this product are Granada Nut, Extract of HydroxyCitric Acid (HCA), Apple, Kiwi, Teng Huang fruit, Jerusalem artichoke, Sweet potato, and Giantarum, which are healthy for your diet. There is less side effects when taking the capsules. If you want to be more attractive, this authentic capsules must be really the best choice for you. :)
paleo? the sweet potato is not. is this raw? welcome.
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The e-mail which I just deleted and you unfortunately quoted is just a silly spam-message. Please ignore in future any first post by a particular member which advertises something,
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Should I hit "report to moderator"? I was thinking to do that. I wasn't sure, as I've never done that before. Answer me here or in a PM. Thanks.
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Should I hit "report to moderator"? I was thinking to do that. I wasn't sure, as I've never done that before. Answer me here or in a PM. Thanks.
Yeah, by all means use the report to moderator function. Usually, though, when it's an obvious spam-message like this one we usually have the post deleted and the spam account banned within a few hours, but, if the post is just dodgy but not yet overtly spam-like or troll-like, we really appreciate advance warning.
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Okee dokee.
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I found a picture of her and an interview. Thought you might like it. I don't speak German, and not going to bother with giving a proper translation to English.
Wai the Woman was more involved with The Acne Book, which was I believe was the first incarnation of The Wai Diet. But her then boyfriend RRM decided to take The Sampl Diet, which includes no 'MUNCH Foods' and make it the mainstay of The Diet. This after Wai kind of disappeared off the forums and the scene as it were. It's rummored, or was, that they are no longer together.
(http://www.enveda.de/images/Wai127.jpg)'Höre auf deinen Körper'
http://www.enveda.de/Magazin/mag_251.cfm (http://www.enveda.de/Magazin/mag_251.cfm)
Wai Genriiu Was kann man tun, um sich gesund und umweltfreundlich zu ernähren?
Wai Genriiu: Nahrungsmittel, die nicht umweltfreundlich sind, sind auch nicht gut für unseren Körper. Wir brauchen die Leute eigentlich nur über die Auswirkungen zu informieren, die die momentane Ernährungsweise auf sie selbst und ihre Gesundheit hat – der Mensch ist Egoist genug, dass daraus eigentlich eine Veränderung resultieren sollte.
Es gibt eine Vielzahl verschiedener Lehren über gesunde Ernährung. Die meisten von ihnen widersprechen sich in der ein oder anderen Form. Welche Hinweise würden Sie einem Anfänger geben, der versucht seine Ernährung umzustellen?
Wai Genriiu: Wenn du wissen willst, was gut für dich ist, dann probiere jede Ernährungslehre aus. Höre aufmerksam zu, was dein Körper dir sagt. Notiere jede Auswirkung dieser speziellen Diät: Wie fühlst du dich? Welche Beschaffenheit hat dein Stuhl? Wie ist deine Haut? Welche Auswirkung hat das Essen auf deine Energie? Wie fühlt sich dein Magen an? Wie schläfst du? Wie ist deine Stimmung?
Was sind für Sie die Basiselemente einer gesunden Ernährung?
Wai Genriiu: Eine ausreichende Menge aller essentiellen Nährstoffe. Möglichst wenig Karzinogene, Enzymhemmer und andere schädliche Substanzen. Leicht verdauliches Essen. Nahrung, die ein Wohlgefühl hinterlässt.
Was ist Ihr beruflicher Hintergrund und woher kam Ihre Motivation, über Ernährung zu forschen?
Wai Genriiu: Ich war viele Jahre als Profi-Model tätig. Als ich mit dem Modeln aufhörte, zog ich in ein anderes Land, veränderte meine Ernährungsweise – und bekam plötzlich Akne. Ich traf meinen jetzigen Freund, der ebenfalls an Akne litt, und zusammen begannen wir, uns mit Biochemie zu beschäftigen, um die Verbindung zwischen Ernährung und Akne zu erforschen. Im Zuge unserer Forschungen entdeckten wir eine Menge Material, das von so großer Wichtigkeit war, das wir es quasi online publizieren mussten.
Welches Feedback haben Sie von den Lesern Ihrer Website erhalten?
Wai Genriiu: Viele Menschen bedanken sich bei uns für die Information, die wir zur Verfügung stellen, und stellen recht detaillierte Fragen, die wir gerne beantworten. Die dankbarsten Rückmeldungen bekommen wir von Menschen, die unter sehr starker Akne gelitten haben und jetzt - dank der von uns vorgeschlagenen Ernährung - wieder ein normales Leben ohne Akne führen können.
Sie schlagen tiefgreifende, wenn auch durchaus "leckere" Veränderungen in der Ernährungsweise vor. Wie kann man sich die Phase des Übergangs erleichtern?
Wai Genriiu: Abgesehen von den Nahrungsmitteln, die Teil der empfohlenen Diät sind, kann man auch Essen zu sich nehmen, dass eigentlich eher als "schlecht" einzustufen ist. Man sollte da jedoch solches wählen, das möglichst wenig schädliche Substanzen enthält und gleichzeitig am meisten zufriedenstellt. Ich nenne das "Munch Food". Diese Nahrungsmittel befriedigen das Verlangen, den emotionalen Aspekt des Essens, und helfen dabei, die ansonsten strikte Diät aufrechtzuerhalten.
Edited to add the enveda link __:35:46 PM
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Here's a Google Machine Translation. Sort of readable...
Wai Genriiu What can you do to eat healthy and environmentally friendly way?
Wai Genriiu: Foods that are not environmentally friendly are also not good for our bodies. We need the people who really only provide information on the impact which the current diet on themselves and their health - the human being is selfish enough that it actually results in a change should be.
There are a variety of lessons about healthy eating. Most of them contradict each other in one form or another. What advice would you give to a beginner, trying to switch his diet?
Wai Genriiu: If you want to know what is good for you, then try out any nutrition. Listen attentively to what your body tells you. Write down any impact of this special diet: How do you feel? What characteristics does your chair(stool! hah!)? How is your skin? What effect does the food on your energy? How does that feel your stomach? How do you sleep? What is your mood?
What do you see the basic elements of a healthy diet?
Wai Genriiu: A sufficient quantity of all essential nutrients. As little as possible carcinogens, enzyme inhibitors and other harmful substances. Easily digestible food. Food that leaves a feeling of wellbeing.
What is your professional background and where your motivation was to do research on nutrition?
Wai Genriiu: I worked for many years as a professional model. When I finished with the modeling, I moved to another country, changed my diet - and suddenly got acne. I met my current boyfriend, who also suffered from acne, and together we began to deal with biochemistry, to explore the connection between diet and acne. During our research we discovered a lot of material that was so important that we almost had to publish online.
What feedback have you received from the readers of your website?
Wai Genriiu: Many people thank us for information, which we shall make available, and quite detailed questions will be answered. The most rewarding feedback we get from people who have suffered from very severe acne and can now - thanks to lead our proposed nutrition - back to a normal life without acne.
They propose far-reaching, albeit absolutely "delicious" changes in the diet before. How to ease the transitional phase?
Wai Genriiu: are apart from the food that is part of the recommended diet, you can also take food that actually rather than "poorly classified" is. One should not choose such that it contains less harmful substances as possible, while the most satisfactory. I call this "Munch Food." These foods to satisfy the longing, the emotional aspect of eating, and help to maintain the otherwise strict diet.
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Nothing terribly interesting in that above message and I speak German. That said, I am deeply grateful to Waigenriuu as she was the first one to show articles on the dangers of cooked foods with plentiful references to numerous, interesting scientific studies.
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You should just remove this forum.
We don't support it and no one uses it.
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You should just remove this forum.
We don't support it and no one uses it.
I very strongly disagree. The same sort of argument was used by another member, a while back, to suggest the removal of the primal diet and weston-price forums, because they were rather inactive at the time. Yet, the Primal Diet forum has become very active indeed since then, and the AV-meetings thread in the Primal Diet forum has a huge number of views for it, with the WP forum also having a very popular, essential thread for online reading of Weston-Price's entire book. At least some of us have been inspired to go raw as a result of Wai's teachings(in some ways, Wai taught me more than any other rawish guru re actual scientific data supporting raw foods), so it should stay, for now.
I'll see about adding some important new links re Wai's site, in the mean-time.
* Seems I don't need to as I've already added, at the top of the forum, the 3 Wai links I wanted re providing the various pro-raw scientific studies. The page concerned at the top of the Wai Diet forum already has 2900+ views which is quite impressive, so far.
I think that there was some wai forum somewhere where I could advertise this forum?
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You should just remove this forum.
We don't support it and no one uses it.
I came to raw paleo diet via Wai Diet.
My 2 younger kids do wai diet when they are sick.
wai diet for me is fruit and sea food.
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I found a picture of her and an interview. Thought you might like it. I don't speak German, and not going to bother with giving a proper translation to English.
Here's some more information about "Wai Genriiu", and his real picture:
http://www.thijsklompmaker.com/interview.htm
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Absolutely great find!
The man should experiment with raw land animals again. We should invite him to post in this forum! Such an honor.
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Here's some more information about "Wai Genriiu", and his real picture:
http://www.thijsklompmaker.com/interview.htm
Who is RRM? Wai Klompmaker's boyfriend? Is Wai/Thijs homosexual? I would like to see him post too, or her, about land animals too like gs said.
Wai
05-24-2003
08:26 AM thank you J,
i think that RRM also had acne since he was 13
he is now 37 and his skin has become a tiny little bit more tolerant this year, in the sense that he can now eat more raw fish than before (up to 300 gram a day), and can occasionally even take some ginger with the salmon now, while this always resulted in new pimples when he tried that during these past 7 years that he was on the 100% strict diet
what keeps him going, is his perfect skin, knowing that he doesnt want those pimples all over anymore (including the big painful ones, the cysts, indeed)
but, in most people with acne, the sebum production resides sooner, so your changes are pretty good
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I can't help it - I need to know what his last name means.
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I'm following a wai diet to improve my skin right now. But mainly because I don't have the stuff(grass fed red meat) to start a total raw paleo.
But I eat eggs and about 150g of cod to add up the protein. I live in Canada, kinda cold, so local fruit selections are limited and mainly non organic fruits.
Didn't see much improvement on my skin yet but I am not that tired anymore.
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Wai diet is according to me is a healthy way to keep yourself glowing everyday as, today many people are going veggie and having raw diet plan that includes fruits and vegetables that can be combined with any thing.
I am a strong supporter of Raw veggie diet as it is high in protein and very good for healthy and glowing skin.
Thanks
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I came to raw paleo diet via Wai Diet.
My 2 younger kids do wai diet when they are sick.
wai diet for me is fruit and sea food.
Hi i just started researching about Raw Paleo diets after having read Aanjanous' experience a few months ago. I am also transitioning to RPD via the Wai Diet, right now i'm eating 2 - 4 raw organic eggs a day & having sushi 2x a week (on top of the raw fruits & greens i consume regularly). The thought of consuming raw land animals makes me squeamish right now so raw fish is a good place to start :) Are there any dangers with mercury poisoning or pesticides or parasites from eating raw fish?
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Hi i just started researching about Raw Paleo diets after having read Aanjanous' experience a few months ago. I am also transitioning to RPD via the Wai Diet, right now i'm eating 2 - 4 raw organic eggs a day & having sushi 2x a week (on top of the raw fruits & greens i consume regularly). The thought of consuming raw land animals makes me squeamish right now so raw fish is a good place to start :) Are there any dangers with mercury poisoning or pesticides or parasites from eating raw fish?
Well, there are some on this forum who have a fear of mercury-poisoning/parasites and the like re raw seafood. I consider such fears to be unfounded based on my own experience. I have never had an issue with raw seafood(well, the only exception was chemically-treated raw fish I bought at some supermarkets, but that was it).
Here is a website debunking the mercury-in-fish scares plus an article on a study definitively damning the whole hysteria re merc ury in fish notions:-
http://fishscam.com/mercuryMyths.cfm
http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/med/mercury.htm
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...sugar is not completely banned by palaeodiets as a whole, re cane-sugar.
Again, where are you getting this from? Can you cite a single reference?
It does not matter whether Wai recommends only table-sugar as that is only a variation thereof. Besides, sugar is always used as a condiment, not as a major food, even in quantity.
It can also be used as a food ingredient, such as in drinks and smoothies and possibly in whatever baked goods Thijs Klompmaker creates with the grains he apparently eats in his "munch foods". Even bread usually includes sugar in its ingredients.
You're still ducking my question of whether heated, refined cane sugar is "not Paleo," or "not-raw" for that matter. And what about beet sugar and 100% fruit jam? Are they also OK?
it's more of a case of split-personality than that he always supports grains.
LOL, now there's a hearty endorsement. ;)
Speaking of split personalities, it seems like we have one if we say that advocacy of raw butter is not at all Paleo but advocacy of heated, refined cane sugar and limited grains is.
The point is that the Wai Diet is more raw and more palaeo than the Weston-Price Diet and more palaeo than the Primal Diet. So it stays.
It seems like you are much less tolerant of dairy and cooked meats advocacy than other non-raw-Paleo advocacy. Is it possible that your opinion is somewhat tilted by your own personal experience?
There are similarities between Wai and raw Paleo, sure, yet you admitted that Wai is transitional, not truly raw Paleo, and it seems like you've been backtracking from that since I pointed out its implications.
A young man said to me he's on the Wai Diet. He said he mostly eats egg yolks without the membranes that's around it, olive oil and orange juice. He said the fish isn't necessary, that sugars and fats are most important ....
Thanks for the info, RawZi. Did he eat any sugars other than those contained in OJ? Was he drinking this drink that Avalon reported is popular with some Wai diet practitioners:
... I also disagreed with the Orange juice, sugar and olive oil drink that is a very big part of RRM's way of getting adequate energy. ...
Fish is one of the best parts of the Wai diet, so eliminating it would seem to be unwise.
on it etc but it's probably his interpretation. I've read that land meats can be on the diet, but that it's so hard to find proper quality meats these days, that 99% of the people on it or so never touch land meats.
That's the sort of dangerous ED-sounding nonsense that can come from bogus fad diets like Wai and apparently result in a deficient diet of little or nothing more than egg yolks, olive oil and orange juice, and maybe heated, refined table sugar.
One test of a diet is its "fruits" (pardon the pun :P ). We don't have much in the way of ringing endorsements for it:
i have followed the WAI diet almost 100% for 8 months. I originally got on the diet to improve my skin. This diet did wonders for my skin but i eventually started running into problems and i started to be extremely fatigued, etc.. it seems the fruit was getting to much for me.
but its a great diet for those who thrive on lots of fruits, unfortunately i due poorly on fruits.
Whereas we do have clearly bad reports about it:
I did the wai diet a couples of years ago for about 8 mounts and I had to stop cause I was loosing my hair and was not feeling good on this diet. I started this diet for my acne and it just made my acne 10 times worse it was a real nightmare. Its to high in fruits and way to much olive oil .... its crazy!
GS tried Wai and reported that raw paleo is superior. Avalon apparently thought the Wai diet was pretty good, but not good enough to stay on it.
So far no one has reported that they're currently doing the Wai diet and there doesn't seem to be much support or strong defense of it, even months after this post, which seems to be accurate, though I would suggest only moving Wai to a non-raw-Paleo subsection of the forum rather than removing it completely:
You should just remove this forum.
We don't support it and no one uses it.
Maybe I'll have some powdered cane sugar on whole grain donuts for my "munch foods". LOL
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Again, where are you getting this from? Can you cite a single reference?
I assumed that palaeo peoples would have occasionally eaten raw sugar cane.Don't see why not.
It can also be used as a food ingredient, such as in drinks and smoothies and possibly in whatever baked goods Thijs Klompmaker creates with the grains he apparently eats in his "munch foods". Even bread usually includes sugar in its ingredients.
You're still ducking my question of whether heated, refined cane sugar is "not Paleo," or "not-raw" for that matter. And what about beet sugar and 100% fruit jam? Are they also OK?
LOL, now there's a hearty endorsement. ;)
Can't cane sugar be eaten raw?
Speaking of split personalities, it seems like we have one if we say that advocacy of raw butter is not at all Paleo but advocacy of heated, refined cane sugar and limited grains is.
It seems like you are much less tolerant of dairy and cooked meats advocacy than other non-raw-Paleo advocacy. Is it possible that your opinion is somewhat tilted by your own personal experience?
The point is that the Wai Diet does include some criticism of grains, if you read the Wai Diet pages in the waisays website. The sugar is only a condiment, so is a minor issue.
There are similarities between Wai and raw Paleo, sure, yet you admitted that Wai is transitional, not truly raw Paleo, and it seems like you've been backtracking from that since I pointed out its implications.
The point is that the Wai Diet is closer to rawpalaeodiets than the other diets like the Weston-Price diet, say. Plus, the Waisays website has some useful pro-raw scientific data with references provided, so it needs more prominent positioning.
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I assumed that palaeo peoples would have occasionally eaten raw sugar cane.Don't see why not.
Where did sugarcane originate? Was it available in Africa or Europe during the Paleolithic? If it's another of those tropical foods that originated in South/Southeast Asia, I've already explained multiple times that as far as I know, my ancestors never set foot in that area, nor did most of the ancestors of Europeans and European Americans.
Can't cane sugar eaten raw?
The table sugar that Wai advocates is heated and refined. Even "raw" cane sugar is a processed product. I doubt that fruit juice or raw cane sugar are truly healthy and I don't consider them "Paleo", but your standards may be more lax than mine on that. Next you'll be advocating fruit jam, dried fruits, and raw nut butters.
The point is that the Wai Diet does include some criticism of grains,
Sure, I didn't say otherwise. That's why I think it belongs on the forum. Didn't you notice my stating that multiple times? I just don't think it deserves the official designation of raw Paleo. It's dying a slow death anyway. You appear to be the only one still giving it a positive spin and keeping it alive here.
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By "palaeo" I meant cane sugar fits in with cooked-palaeo. Besides, even rawpalaeo allows some processing such as raw beef jerky, so this is mere quibbling. The location of the original sugar cane is irrelevant. I know some people bizarrely exclude plants originally based in the Americas, but the location is irrelevant, more important is whether it was of the type of foods eaten in palaeo times. There's no reason to assume palaeo peoples would not have wanted to eat cane sugar as it is hardly indigestible.
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By "palaeo" I meant cane sugar fits in with cooked-palaeo.
For some people maybe, but most of the experts on Paleo, such as Cordain, Audette, Wolf, Sisson and KGH, don't consider refined sugar, whether heated or raw, Paleo--apparently because they don't think that humans are biologically adapted to processed sugar and I doubt they'd recommend chewing sugar cane either, but it would be interesting to ask. It doesn't really matter, since Wai doesn't recommend sugar cane and it's not the same thing as table sugar, that's just stretching things to try to make the Wai square peg fit into the raw Paleo round hole.
Besides, even rawpalaeo allows some processing such as raw beef jerky, so this is mere quibbling.
I doubt that Cordain, Wolf, Sisson, Audette or Eaton would agree with you. I doubt that they would consider table sugar or even raw processed cane sugar just as healthy as beef jerky and I'm not convinced of it either. You're really grasping at straws.
The location of the original sugar cane is irrelevant.
You wrote:
I assumed that palaeo peoples would have occasionally eaten raw sugar cane.Don't see why not.
I responded to your query of why not. If sugar cane wasn't in their area, how could they have eaten it? You apparently felt that whether they ate it or not was important enough to bring it up. What relevance is it if they could theoretically eat it if it wasn't there? We already know it's edible raw, so what does the Stone Ager example tell us that we don't already know?
It would mean that your claim that more important is whether it was of the type of foods eaten in palaeo times.
For most Paleo peoples in most areas for the vast majority of the Paleolithic era, including likely all of your ancestors, it was not. How is it relevant to you or me if a small number of people that were not your or my ancestors who lived late in the Stone Age in one region might have eaten it? We already know it's edible, so what does the fact that they could possibly have eaten it in a certain region tell us that we don't already know?
There's no reason to assume palaeo peoples would not have wanted to eat cane sugar as it is hardly indigestible.
No one said they wouldn't have. If it was impossible for them to get it, who cares. They would have probably wanted to have eaten pizza too, but what's the relevance?
I notice you didn't answer several of my questions. That and the straw men you brought up suggest that you don't have good answers to the questions.
It's not like I'm suggesting that the Wai diet be banned, just moved to a more appropriate subsection, and not just because of the sugar or the grain munch foods, but also for other reasons I and others have discussed in the past. You've yet to provide a convincing reason that it shouldn't be moved. Just because some Stone Agers might have eaten something somewhere in the world does not make it "Paleo" in the sense of a biologically appropriate, healthy food. If you can get one of the prominent Paleo diet "experts" to agree that table sugar and the Wai diet are healthy and sufficiently Paleo and if they can explain why this is, biologically, metabolically, etc. that would be more convincing. You are not an objective arbiter on this subject.
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I did wai diet for 3 months prior to adding raw red meat.
During those 3 months I followed what I understood about wai diet:
- raw paleo fruit
- raw sea food (their forum has a very good resource of plentiful sea food)
- raw egg yolks
(I never liked EVOO)
I don't see why you have to go around accusing the wai diet of being a sugar pusher of which it is not. No way. Nyet. In the 3 months I did Wai Diet I never even thought about "sugar". Mind you I practiced Wai Diet best I could for 3 whole months. And there was none of the "sugar" you keep insinuating.
Any other "munch food" Mr "Wai" is stating is "cheat" food for the undiciplined.
Wai diet is more raw and even more "paleo" than Weston Price and Aajonus Primal diet.
I or Tyler are not the only ones who have the same observation that Wai Diet is a version of Paleo Diet and we should bring wai dieters in our collective sphere of influence.
Loren Howe states as a fact that Wai Diet = Paleo Diet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI
So let's drop this "issue" against Wai Diet. It's nitpicking.
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For some people maybe, but most of the experts on Paleo, such as Cordain, Audette, Wolf, Sisson and KGH, don't consider refined sugar, whether heated or raw, Paleo--apparently because they don't think that humans are biologically adapted to processed sugar and I doubt they'd recommend chewing sugar cane either, but it would be interesting to ask. It doesn't really matter, since Wai doesn't recommend sugar cane and it's not the same thing as table sugar, that's just stretching things to try to make the Wai square peg fit into the raw Paleo round hole.
Not at all. But by all means try to find a remark by Cordain et al that specifically denounces raw cane sugar, as opposed to heated table-sugar. Otherwise, you are the one who is b*llsh*tting.
I doubt that Cordain, Wolf, Sisson, Audette or Eaton would agree with you. I doubt that they would consider table sugar or even raw processed cane sugar just as healthy as beef jerky and I'm not convinced of it either. You're really grasping at straws.
No, you are. My point stands, that cooked-palaeo and raw-palaeo both allow some form of processing, besides some palaeo gurus do recommend pemmican and other processed meats. Besides, you have not even bothered to address the point that refined sugar is never used as a food, but solely as a mere condiment.
You wrote:I responded to your query of why not. If sugar cane wasn't in their area, how could they have eaten it? You apparently felt that whether they ate it or not was important enough to bring it up. What relevance is it if they could theoretically eat it if it wasn't there? We already know it's edible raw, so what does the Stone Ager example tell us that we don't already know?
The point is that if it is edible raw, then that fits perfectly with Audette's and others' definition of what "palaeo" means.
For most Paleo peoples in most areas for the vast majority of the Paleolithic era, including likely all of your ancestors, it was not. How is it relevant to you or me if a small number of people that were not your or my ancestors who lived late in the Stone Age in one region might have eaten it? We already know it's edible, so what does the fact that they could possibly have eaten it in a certain region tell us that we don't already know?
That's grossly hypocritical of you, since you cited regional location as relevant. The fact is that it is edible and has no antinutrients, case closed.
No one said they wouldn't have. If it was impossible for them to get it, who cares. They would have probably wanted to have eaten pizza too, but what's the relevance?
I notice you didn't answer several of my questions. That and the straw men you brought up suggest that you don't have good answers to the questions.
The relevance is that if any palaeo peoples could have eaten raw sugar cane in their areas, then your whole argument is dead in the water.
It's not like I'm suggesting that the Wai diet be banned, just moved to a more appropriate subsection, and not just because of the sugar or the grain munch foods, but also for other reasons I and others have discussed in the past. You've yet to provide a convincing reason that it shouldn't be moved. Just because some Stone Agers might have eaten something somewhere in the world does not make it "Paleo" in the sense of a biologically appropriate, healthy food. If you can get one of the prominent Paleo diet "experts" to agree that table sugar and the Wai diet are healthy and sufficiently Paleo and if they can explain why this is, biologically, metabolically, etc. that would be more convincing. You are not an objective arbiter on this subject.
Utter drivel, as usual. Like I said, how the Wai Diet is interpreted is far more interpreted is FAR more important. Since table sugar is solely used as a condiment, NOT as a food, it is irrelevant to your argument. Besides, you have a dead, embarassing argument re raw cane-sugar. The grains aspect has been addressed since Wai does attack them in some cases on his website articles.
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My understanding based on ex-vegans on other forums and such doing wai was the main daily staple consisted of orange juice, EVOO and many teaspoons of table sugar. The idea that this is considered a natural diet is discouraging. The idea that it is automatically a healthier or more therapeutic diet over non-raw and non-paleo diets is also fairly discouraging. Above, refined sugar is listed as a 'macro-nutrient' which means its being eaten as a food in quantity as a calorie source discounting any negative affects of it being a modern processed food. Sugarcane is a pain in the ass to chew and generally needs to be refined, juiced, or boiled. Even with the idea that refining food is ok, the idea that you can eat refined food (like oils as well) and place it higher in value to other foods or approaches because it can somehow be traced to what people MIGHT HAVE HAD ACCESS TO represents a huge problem in conceptualizing healthy food. This includes the whole Cordain definition of 'paleo' ...which is entirely flawed and ignorant in terms of finding out which foods are truly healthy for people to eat and how much.
Saying that this is closer to a diet of our ancestors because it leaves out certain foods is just unfortunate and bad logic. Countless examples can be made that anyone can understand are not a healthy way to construct a diet...never-mind one that approximates true paleo peoples' intake. Its like saying that doing The Master Cleanse three days a week then eating a bag of almonds, a jar of olives, 8 brussel sprouts, and a few chicken eggs is a 'paleo' diet and that adding some quality raw meat makes it a complete and 'healthy' diet. Food isn't just stuff that evaporates in your stomach and the particles either add or subtract from health. Even if a food is suitable for consumption in some form and amount for an ancient person it can easily cause all kinds of problems in varying amounts or particularly so for a modern people with chaotic internal environments. Eating in such a way also could neglect huge components of diet that people truly require. This is also after making a huge assumption that many such ancient foods were EVER regular foods for humans - after all, other species eat natural stuff too.
To get away from sugar...I don't know what animal eats olives in abundance or how old they are but I can gauge pretty easily that a diet of 98% olive oil and 2 percent choice wild venison is not something humans thrive on. As with other examples, Its curious to see what other evidence on top of diet experiments for the last 100 years people require that will dispel the emphasis on such natural=healthy simplicities particularly when discounting actual availability, seasonality or practicality.
If a diet matches the compositions/processes/habits of ancient or traditional peoples it can be seen as a diet suitable for us to adapt to our needs and with the foods we have available which mimic those compositions if need be. If 'paleo' is just an arbitrary or inaccurate grouping or assessment of foods based on their age on the planet..it isn't really a diet at all nevermind one unique to any particular period. A proper diet is something that people can measurably thrive and heal on while doing the least damage..not some loose organization of what is volatile or safe on paper regardless of the actual documented effects on the body.
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There is no such thing as a "proper" diet. And the palaeo definition is mostly defined by what is NOT palaeo. I seriously doubt that any palaeo adherents stick strictly to the rough components/ratios found in ancient palaeolithic diets, according to the latest research. Everyone is either zero-carb or eats grassfed meats instead of wild game etc.
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My understanding based on ex-vegans on other forums and such doing wai was the main daily staple consisted of orange juice, EVOO and many teaspoons of table sugar.
Link please?
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The idea that it is automatically a healthier or more therapeutic diet over non-raw and non-paleo diets is also fairly discouraging. Above, refined sugar is listed as a 'macro-nutrient' which means its being eaten as a food in quantity as a calorie source discounting any negative affects of it being a modern processed food. Sugarcane is a pain in the ass to chew and generally needs to be refined, juiced, or boiled. Even with the idea that refining food is ok, the idea that you can eat refined food (like oils as well) and place it higher in value to other foods or approaches because it can somehow be traced to what people MIGHT HAVE HAD ACCESS TO represents a huge problem in conceptualizing healthy food.
Thanks, KD, you seem to get what I'm saying and you made good points here showing why the issue with the Wai diet is more than just nitpicking. It's fairly fundamental. The idea that just because some Stone Ager ate a food or, worse still, might have had access to it, that it must then be regarded as fully "Paleo" and healthy, without any regard to quantity or duration of intake or overall dietary balance, seems like it could potentially lead to some people heading off into unbalanced, unhealthy diets. When you add to that the issue in the Wai approach (as it seems to be practiced--see my quotes above and the Wai writings and forum) of unnecessary downplaying of healthy Paleo foods like meats and advocacy of grain, legume and tuber munch foods in the acne book, and look at the whole picture and the reports of people faring poorly on the approach and look at what Wai dieters have actually been eating, then it doesn't add up to something we would necessarily want to promote with a raw Paleo designation. I hope I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anything convincing to the contrary yet. If we have any Wai dieters left, I hope they will speak to these issues.
Countless examples can be made that anyone can understand are not a healthy way to construct a diet...never-mind one that approximates true paleo peoples' intake.
Yes, and I think you tried to explain this in the past. I hope folks try to understand you on this rather than just seek to contradict you, because it seems like an important concept and I have seen multiple newbies in various dietary forums fall prey to this pitfall.
I tried to word this in a constructive and understandable manner, so I hope it comes across well.
Here's another post where I tried to explain my thinking on the fundamental concept of what a "Paleo" diet means:
... For me the key feature of raw Paleo is more than "a more historically natural approach," it's a biologically appropriate approach, or at least aims to be as best as can be managed with today's foods. Biological appropriateness was the fundamental element of Boyd Eaton's 1986 hypothesis of Paleolithic nutrition that started the Paleo diet movement (Voegtlin's earlier work was not influential enough to start the movement). Basing it only on what's "historically natural" lends itself too easily to the errors of blind emulation and re-enactment and woo like Natural Hygiene. ...
On this fundamental element I find the Wai diet as illustrated in Wai's writings and the Wai forum to be wanting. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe it has been improved since, but I haven't seen evidence of this yet.
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Paleophil, KD,
Any links to the sugar addicts ?
I did Wai Diet for 3 months and I never came across recommendations to eat sugar on Wai Diet (2008 January, Feb and March)
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I thought I had posted at least one sugar quote here, but I see what happened--I posted a sugar quote in another Wai thread, got interrupted at home before I could respond to a response post in the other thread, and then thought this was the thread and continued in this thread. So here is a post with a Wai sugar quote from the other thread:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/wai-dieters/anyone-here-doing-the-wai-diet/msg70695/#msg70695
Sorry for any confusion.
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I thought I had posted at least one sugar quote here, but I see what happened--I posted a sugar quote in another Wai thread, got interrupted at home before I could respond to a response post in the other thread, and then thought this was the thread and continued in this thread. So here is a post with a Wai sugar quote from the other thread:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/wai-dieters/anyone-here-doing-the-wai-diet/msg70695/#msg70695
Sorry for any confusion.
That section where Wai completely explained the usefulness of sugar is NOT some sort of penalty that should get them expelled from the raw paleo forum tribe. His complete explanation was explicit and direct to the point.
As you know I heal people and I'm connected with very knowledgeable healers. My pro healer friend Vander Gaditano will use table sugar in emergencies for those people who are "resource challenged".
Taken at it's full context of the entire web page http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/twd-sugar.html is just that, an explanation of his opinion about table sugar. It is not a recommendation to make table sugar a staple.
As I explained, I was on Wai Diet for 3 months and participated in their forums and followed the book and I did not come across sugar junkies during my time 2008 Jan to March.
Loren Howe makes no mistake in saying Wai Diet is a form of Paleo Diet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI
Of course Wai Diet has the quirk of not recommending land animals... because the researchers arrived at RAW Paleo Diet from a different approach. Note the importance of RAW in Wai Diet.
I'm thankful for Craig and Geoff's foresight in including Wai Diet in this forum... it was via Wai Diet I came to a more complete Raw Paleo Diet.
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At one time I suggested adding temporary Raw Veganism to this forum as many of us also tried Raw Veganism... and failed and it was only a logical next step to add raw animal foods in our raw vegan diet to make it complete.
But at that time the other mods felt that most raw vegans were rabid narrow minded Talibans and would only cause havoc.
I figured, we have raw carnivore, how about temporary raw vegans who will eventually add raw meat to their diet?
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I could care less about the politics of it, although if you asked me honestly if I thought wai being elevated over other diets (even non raw versions) as 'more paleo' reflects poorly on the site I would say yes.
My position is I'm open to something like refined sugar or dairy or bloodletting or any other relatively natural thing if it works for them and there are actually examples of such doing more good then harm. Unfortunately, ancient 'foods' or their derivations employed arbitrarily do not equal health and theres no points to be gained by neglecting just measurable inaccuracies regarding such.
On top of that...one doesn't even have to attack the diets effectiveness as either a healthy diet or transition diet to see that it does include a large portion of processed foods, modern foods, and some allowance to grain foods making it only similar to a 'paleo diet' described here in that it excludes dairy and vegetables(?) and includes some select non ruminant(?) animal products and attempts to eat much of these things raw.
Since this is mainly a paleo forum it makes sense that certain things are praised or excluded but the whole point is there is a double standard to what is considered possible avenues for health considering all RVAF diets are theoretically represented on the site.
When I think of Primal Blueprint folks cooking ruminant meat topped with Crème fraiche and some 'neolithic' vegetables I don't think immediately that what these people are eating is some bastardization of a natural way of eating. I do think this when people are eating trail mix and lean white meat and fruit oil calling this a 'paleo diet'. With something like Wai or fruitarianism I also instantly have that impression that these are concepts created by modern people that are judging things not by real world information. Even if one could prove that all of these things were actually eaten by humans they would still be operating under an ideology invented by humans excluding likely necessary intrinsic and therapeutic food sources.
People get stung up on details like how many years back a human might have gone from ingesting ounces of milk on occasion to raising animals for dairy or to when they used fire to cook them. I'm still trying to figure out how I can get a mango, jackfruit, or avocado seed down my throat and out my digestive tract, not that I would bother to call these things 'non paleo' or unhealthy.
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I can't find the original sources of people i knew doing wai as its on a forum where when people leave the forum (go to other diets) their posts disappear. heres some of many in a whole section dedicated to oils and processed sugars on the wai site. I guess the question of how 'paleo' it is could be answered by if someone posted in the welcoming forum here that they were excited about finally being able to eat as much fruit juice, table sugar, and olive oil as they want.
http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2001
http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2678
http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2334
http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2307
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If we are to persecute Wai Diet.
Then we will have to persecute Weston Price because hell they cook their stuff.
Then we will have to persecute Aajonus Vonderplanitz Primal Diet for pushing raw dairy non-stop.
It is good that we are raiding the ranks of wai dieters, primal dieters and weston price dieters.
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What does this even mean? is there a general unfair percentage of wai dieters on this forum getting ostracized than dairy consumers?
You asked about processed and refined sugars and other modern foods prominence in the diet. If these aren't disqualifiers then the only focus comes down to which diet has dairy in it..and not what diets are actually healthful or how much the rest of the diet represents anything natural whatsoever. Seems glaringly obvious.
If you add up the story, wai diet being raw is no more a 'paleo diet' to a cooked meat dairy slathered diet. This is what people are suggesting. It's true that AV Primal Diet has very little bearing of how one would eat in nature but it has no pretense of that. As for Weston Price it involves cooking and other neolithic foods but it generally stays away from processed foods and is based on study of actual peoples in nature.
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Sugar is not consumed in vast quantities like other foods like meats or veg, so it's a condiment not a food, so is only a minor issue. The point is that the Wai Diet is seen by most as consisting primarily of raw seafood and raw fruits. There may be differences, with the main guru also advocating other foods, but those are the 2 mainstays, both raw and both palaeo.
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how many grams or calories of table sugar is small enough to make it a condiment? 1000 kcal? 300 kcal?
http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2460&p=26611&hilit=+grams+of+sugar+#p26611
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so it is ...that if the mainstay of a diet is meat (or sorta meat) and veg its fine to not only include but advocate non-paleo foods within a paleo diet. Also we can take away that ANY diet that excludes dairy foods, includes seafoods and fruits in whatever quantities and sort of limits grain foods is a paleo diet regardless of how much of that food is processed, refined, or resembles anything found in nature.
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You're missing the point again. The primal diet is way too processed as it has raw veggie-juice and raw dairy and raw veggie juices as very huge components thereof make it less palaeo than the wai diet.The weston-price diet isn't really raw as such and heartily recommends both dairy and grains. All a matter of degree, and since most people view the Wai Diet as just being mainly raw seafood and raw fruit, it's irrelevant if some others also add some sugar or whatver.
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Those sugar idiots weren't there in the Wai forum when I did wai diet in 2008 Jan to March.
Someone has to knock some sense into them.
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ok from my perspective the point is you are trying to rationalize the wai diet being a paleo diet when it does not meet your own definitions of being a paleo diet nevermind mine and others. First you said it has to do with what it leaves out, now you are saying if it is largely paleo foods it can contain neolithic foods which I assume would also include dairy in small quantities. Both you and GS either here or in your journals have already suggested that a 'wai diet' whether it is the official version (that includes processed and neolithic foods) or some unofficial 'paleo' version here of seafood and fruit that it is not sustainable long term as a diet. Its seems rather disingenuous to promote something as a 'paleo diet' if not only it is something that our ancestors could not permanently subsist on nor is it something people are showing to create health long term. Particulary if refined foods like oils are needed to balance the diet out.
For this reason it doesn't seem to be nitpicking to suggest if someone really wanted to be accurate that it would be listed amongst 'other RVAF diets' or something similar which would include the others. Whether something like 'instincto' ends up with a product remotely similar to how our ancestors would have eaten I do not know..but at least it doesn't carry an extreme mixed message which what types of things or ok to fudge on with 'paleo' and which things are not.
Theres also a larger point that these definitions often attempt to discredit workable concepts while promoting others that are either unimportant or neglectful of whether the end product is a healthy diet at all, and this includes cordain et al.
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seafood and fruit that it is not sustainable long term as a diet
In the Philippines seafood and fruit IS SUSTAINABLE long term.
We live in different countries... remember?
We got tons of fruit.
We got tons of sea food.
All of it non-stop.
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I'm not talking about environmental sustainability. I'm talking about living in optimal health while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not? would paleo ancestors do better just eating seafoods and fruits to justify it being labeled a diet of the paleolithic? why pussy-foot around this stuff? Its a simple point. If a diet is seen as not healthy long term, how is it a paleo diet?
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I'm not talking about environmental sustainability. I'm talking about living in optimal health while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not? would paleo ancestors do better just eating seafoods and fruits to justify it being labeled a diet of the paleolithic? why pussy-foot around this stuff?
I do great on fruits.
You should see our fruits here. They are just great.
Philippines is just bursting with fruit. There is always a new organic / wild fruit in season each month.
We are drowning in wild mangoes these days. You can come up to mango trees without a ladder and gather sack fulls. But who would eat all of it? And it's free.
And sea food? You betcha.
There are times I do sea food days.
When my office was beside the wet market last year, I ate blue marlin, tuna, oysters, clams, squid, shrimp more often than beef or horse or lamb.
Blue marlin is so fatty dreamy... And shrimp? If I had more money, I'd buy it more often... it's more expensive than beef.
So when my office was beside the big wet market I was more Wai Diet.
Sea food doesn't store long in the refrigerator. 1 day only.
The way I see it is you and Phil are riled up because some of these Wai dieters got into a refined sugar craze.... I think they are idiots too!
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You're just quibbling. We've already given many reasons as to why the wai diet is more rawpalaeo in theme than diets like the weston-price diet or the primal diet. Minor exceptions here and there don't matter as they are less extreme than those other 2 diets.
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The way I see it is you and Phil are riled up because some of these Wai dieters got into a refined sugar craze.... I think they are idiots too!
This isn't at all my opinion. I've stated quite a few things that you never even addressed. The sugar was one issue. now Ive turned and already said if the diet only contained seafood and fruit and no 'neolithic food' it is unsustainable, which was dodged as with all the other points because there is no answer only that there is a incredible bias/blind-spot to these issues of common sense. Generally it looks bad to promote things you do not believe are optimal or sound decision making.
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I'm not talking about environmental sustainability. I'm talking about living in optimal health while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not? would paleo ancestors do better just eating seafoods and fruits to justify it being labeled a diet of the paleolithic? why pussy-foot around this stuff? Its a simple point. If a diet is seen as not healthy long term, how is it a paleo diet?
this is minor qubbling? that a diet is be proposed as a paleolithic option on a health forum that is anchored in potentially unhealthy concepts and of which no one sees as a long term solution or prefered over what they are currently doing - unlike adherents to ZC, primal, instincto etc... It isn't a matter of which is the worst offender. its that on top of the 'minor exceptions' of neolithic and modern processes (which are really ARE staples of wai) the principles of the diet are not those of a healthy 'paleo' diet and are not healthy.
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Didn't I just answer you in the affirmative?
Long term wai diet is good in the Philippines.
In fact good sea food is easier to come by than good beef in many parts of the country.
Fruit is a given, it is everywhere too.
Philippines + Wai Diet = is Good.
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while neglecting all ruminant meats and fats. Would your health improve going back to a wai diet or not?
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I just answered you in my previous posts about when I held office beside the wet market I was doing more wai diet. Because sea food was more readily accessible in that location.
These days I'm gravitating towards instincto.
Wai Diet is good.
Those sugar idiots in the forum posts you linked to are idiots. Someone should tell them that.
*** Not eating sea food is bad for my health FYI. There is something in the sea food that really rocks. Sea food is more wild than any beef source I have right now.
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ah the Bill Clintons of the paleo world.
ok then in closing, anyone can see that there is no need to compare which diets are 'least plaeo' to say that the wai diet as described by its gurus and main practitioners is not a paleo diet whatsoever and furthermore that the definitions given to establish what is 'paleo' basically have nothing to do with what is healthy or natural. In addition the 'paleo version' of wai theorized by people on RPF and practiced by no known modern or ancient person (other than potential AV tribe) is not a diet people of the paleolithic would have eaten. It is also not a suitable diet long term for optimal health and since people will inevitably be encouraged or desperate to add other animal foods or do other modifications the diet is not a 'paleo diet' itself because a true plaeo diet, a true healthy diet, would be a diet that one could raise generations of people following without modification to its priciples.
*** Not eating sea food is bad for my health FYI. There is something in the sea food that really rocks. Sea food is more wild than any beef source I have right now.
being on the east coast of the US I also like seafood and fruit
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I don't personally thrive on just raw seafood and raw fruit, but I don't discount the strong possibility that others would do fine on such a diet, such as palaeo-era tribes right next to the coast, say, who had deserts on one side(such geographical areas do exist around the world)/
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All processing is not alike. There's a difference between home-processed foods and industrially-processed foods and by coincidence, Stephan Guyenet touched on it a couple days ago:
I try to say "industrially processed" rather than just "processed". Usually what I mean by that is processing steps that are impossible or impractical in the home, and particularly steps that are not indigenous to long-term healthy cultures. What I mean in this context though, is more than just "refined". I mean foods that have been professionally composed to maximize reward value so that you'll keep buying them. Things like chips, candy, cakes, fast food, etc. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/fast-food-weight-gain-and-insulin.html
That section where Wai completely explained the usefulness of sugar is NOT some sort of penalty that should get them expelled from the raw paleo forum tribe.
I agree and I didn't ask the Wai section to be expelled. I'm just not sure that it makes sense to have it in the Paleo subsection of the forum, that's all. Not a big deal but it seems like it has stirred up some old bitter feelings, perhaps due to an unrelated past effort by someone else to get the Wai diet expelled from the forum.
The Weston Price and Primal are in a separate section and no one complains about it, and the Wai Diet doesn't have to be equivalent to those other diets to be in a different subsection than raw Paleo, and it wouldn't mean that anyone necessarily thinks that the Wai diet is bad because of it. As KD has said many times, sometimes doing something that's not 100% Paleo might be therapeutic for some folks. It would just be a step to help reduce confusion.
As you know I heal people and I'm connected with very knowledgeable healers. My pro healer friend Vander Gaditano will use table sugar in emergencies for those people who are "resource challenged".
There, you see, that's exactly the sort of thing that KD has been talking about for months. So that's something you can agree with him on.
Loren Howe makes no mistake in saying Wai Diet is a form of Paleo Diet
He's certainly entitled to his opinion and I defend his right to his opinion.
I'm thankful for Craig and Geoff's foresight in including Wai Diet in this forum... it was via Wai Diet I came to a more complete Raw Paleo Diet.
Yes, that's one reason why I support keeping it at this forum, my only question was whether it makes sense for it to be in the Paleo subsection or whether that adds to confusion about what Paleo means. Somehow it got misunderstood into a request to ban it from the forum, which I never asked for. KD seems to understand what I was saying.
There seems to be some heat generating on this topic, unfortunately, so I'd like to take a break from it here and do some exploring at the Wai forum, where I registered so I can ask questions. I haven't gotten any responses from any active Wai members here, but maybe I'll have better luck there.
If we are to persecute Wai Diet.
I don't want to persecute the Wai diet, if it's possible to persecute a diet. :)
Then we will have to persecute Weston Price because hell they cook their stuff.
Hmmm, I AM tempted to get revenge on the WAPF devotees after a couple of them attacked me years ago. LOL But alas, that wouldn't be right.
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Moving Wai Dieters below Weston Price is a good idea.
Any Yays from the other mods?
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Moving Wai Dieters below Weston Price is a good idea.
Any Yays from the other mods?
Nyet, no, nein. Primal diet and weston-price diet have things in common with each other re raw dairy. Wai diet should not be in a raw-dairy-oriented section.
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Ok, how about moving up Instincto?
So Wai Diet is below Instincto?
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Ok, how about moving up Instincto?
So Wai Diet is below Instincto?
Fine.
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Ok, how about moving up Instincto?
So Wai Diet is below Instincto?
Heh, I didn't realize that the diets were ranked. I was thinking more along the lines of a separate Wai section of its own below the Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You section, which would actually make it more prominent and separate it from Paleo, but Tyler doesn't want to do that, so thanks for trying to find a compromise.
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Heh, I didn't realize that the diets were ranked. I was thinking more along the lines of a separate Wai section of its own below the Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You section, which would actually make it more prominent and separate it from Paleo, but Tyler doesn't want to do that, so thanks for trying to find a compromise.
In a way, that would make the wai diet seem more important than it is, if it had its own category.
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well at least its now admitted that this isn't a 'nitpicking issue' at all and just reveals that there is a hierarchy involved where no matter how many modern, processed, or neolithic foods are in a diet, or how healthy that diet even is, it is considered more 'paleo' than any diet that includes dairy foods.
Without redefining that this is a diet created by a single person:
If the 'munch' foods included in wai were dairy and not grain foods (these can now be seen as not equally un-paleo with grains being acceptable as long as they are not a huge part of the diet)
Or
If the acceptable amount of any or all of the intake of refined sugar, olive oil and fruit juice were replaced with dairy foods or refined juiced vegetables it would not have an 'elevated' status amongst 'non-paleo' diets.
So the message actually is that a paleo diet is not 'what it excludes' but merely any diet that excludes dairy foods and can theoretically be any combination of other foods. It matters not at all that the diet is not a diet that completes ones nutrition or general health needs as long as it excludes dairy foods and includes some animal foods.
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You're missing the point once more. The wai diet is "less worse " as it advocates only some grains and some sugar while the primal diet and weston-price diet advocate huge amounts of raw dairy, and lots of grains in the case of the WP diet, and the primal diet advocates huge amounts of raw veggie juice as well.
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the point is that one doesn't need to compare it to other diets to see that any non biased group of people witnessing this conversation would see that it doesn't fit the category of a paleo diet and is basically being praised for its exclusion of raw dairy rather than its merits as an ancestral diet or a diet people can practice healthfully.
other diets have no place in this but these other diets do actually have more evidence of creating long term health than wai diets which have been basically admitted to being a 'transition' diet filled with modern and neolithic foods and actually less grounded in traditional diets of our ancestors no matter which foods they exclude.
If you seriously want to now shift and stand behind it being 'less amounts' than 'what it excludes' then surely back up your stance by creating yet a new category that includes similar small amounts of dairy and other processing comparable to wai as a paleo category or admit that this is 100% an issue of your perspective on raw dairy vs any neolithic or modern food as being 'most problematic' by your judgement alone.
Or just move the non paleo diet in with 'Other non-paleo approaches"
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In a way, that would make the wai diet seem more important than it is, if it had its own category.
Correct, which I mentioned in the post above yours and which is why the misunderstanding that I was trying to persecute the Wai diet was rather ironic.
Alternatively, another way to organize it would be to move it to the "Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets" section, putting it at the top to show that it is closer to raw Paleo than the other diets there. It wouldn't seem to be necessary to rename that section to something like "Other Related Diets" since the Wai Diet does include animal foods. However, you apparently don't like this idea, so that's a nonstarter.
So the message actually is that a paleo diet is not 'what it excludes' but merely any diet that excludes dairy foods and can theoretically be any combination of other foods. It matters not at all that the diet is not a diet that completes ones nutrition or general health needs as long as it excludes dairy foods and includes some animal foods.
the point is that one doesn't need to compare it to other diets to see that any non biased group of people witnessing this conversation would see that it doesn't fit the category of a paleo diet and is basically being praised for its exclusion raw dairy rather than its merits as an ancestral diet or a diet people can practice healthfully.
....
Yes, it has become clear that Tyler's pet peeves are diets that include significant dairy or extensive cooking. Per his posts, it seems that as long as an individual's diet doesn't include either of those it can be terribly unhealthy for him/her and bear little resemblance to the diet of any Stone Age or hunter-gatherer people and be quite contrary to what biological adaptation, metabolic science and individual genetics and epigenetics indicate and still be considered basically raw Paleo. As KD explained, one can fashion an unbalanced diet with Paleo foods if one focuses just on individual foods and not the holistic picture.
Tyler summarized well this sort of misguided reductionist distortion of the concept of "Paleo" with this quip: "The relevance is that if any palaeo peoples could have eaten raw sugar cane in their areas, then your whole argument is dead in the water." This is a classic case of missing the forest for the trees by equating the theory of Paleolithic nutrition with re-enactment of certain potential details of theoretical Stone Agers somewhere in the world and then stretching the details as necessary to fit the agenda. This subject is so fundamental and such a common pitfall that it deserves its own thread some day, but I don't want to delve into it right now, as it's likely that Tyler will contradict everything I say on it and make little or no effort to understand what I'm trying to say.
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or a diet people can practice healthfully.
Are you saying the wai diet is not healthy? Can you please elaborate exactly why? You get all the nutrients you need with the least amount of antinutrients, I don't see how is this not healthy. Just please don't start again on the sugar :)
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Interesting, neither of you have remotely successfully debunked my previous points re the Wai Diet being "less worse/more rawpalaeo" than the primal diet or the weston-price diet. I had pointed out that the vast amounts of raw dairy and raw veggie juice in the primal diet, and the vast amounts of cooked foods and raw dairy in the weston-price diet meant that they were not remotely as rawpalaeo as the wai diet was.
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we 'debunked' that that was an issue at all in deciding if it if wai was actually a paleo diet. we 'rebunked' the notion that this is entirely based on your biases and attempts to refine things for your own purposes and theories. that you cannot even stick to a single definition to say what is paleo or not. nor have you responded to my point about a diet heavy in ruminant meats and fats thats omnivorous and contains equal or less calories in dairy than wai in sugar and grain being an acceptable paleo diet.
which is more raw paleo a spaceship or a 747? I'm thinking the 747 is slick and dynamic and otherworldly enough to be disqualified but the spaceship..its in outer space. which one should we pick?
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we 'debunked' that that was an issue at all in deciding if it if wai was actually a paleo diet. we 'rebunked' the notion that this is entirely based on your biases and attempts to refine things for your own purposes and theories. that you cannot even stick to a single definition to say what is paleo or not. nor have you responded to my point about a diet heavy in ruminant meats and fats thats omnivorous and contains equal or less calories in dairy than wai in sugar and grain being an acceptable paleo diet.
which is more raw paleo a spaceship or a 747? I'm thinking the 747 is slick and dynamic and otherworldly enough to be disqualified but the space..its in outer space. which one should we pick?
Well, that's totally false. First of all, it is not based on my own biases, as Craig was involved in setting up the forum in that way, I made no decisions in that regard, it was all craig's idea, I merely stated which diets should have their own forums, not where they should be placed. Plus, GS and the other guy he cited view the Wai Diet as being "rawpalaeo", so clearly it's just you and Paleophil who are biased, nothing more.
The issue of "what is palaeo" is more complicated than you like to pretend. For example, on previous occasions you were on the war-path trying to denounce the Instincto Diet as not being truly "palaeo". Anyway, Craig seems to have shoved it into the "palaeo" section since he, like most others, viewed the Wai Diet as being primarily raw seafood and raw fruits, and because it was far more "rawpalaeo" than the primal diet or the weston-price diet. Putting the Wai Diet into its own category would be foolish as that would make it seem more important than it is.
As for the other point re creating another category for a diet with small amounts of dairy etc. to balance the Wai Diet, so far there isn't one, so it would be stupid to create a category for a diet that doesn't officially exist.
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Are you saying the wai diet is not healthy? Can you please elaborate exactly why? You get all the nutrients you need with the least amount of antinutrients, I don't see how is this not healthy. Just please don't start again on the sugar :)
well in fairness what I said was that based on what some people were including as a diet that it clearly doesn't factor in that a large part of the diet could be composed of refined and processed foods that are considered by and large to be unhealthy by the plaeo perspective and still be elevated over other diets as being 'more paleo' even when people actually ate far similarly to those other diets.
If you want my actual opinion I would say just your brief comment is typical per this conversation in its misrepresentation of what a healthy diet truly is. A healthy diet is something that is in line with what our ancestral makeup is ("what we are designed to eat" which of course is largely disputed) as well as something that is SHOWN to create best results in avoiding disease and repairing various issues/detoxing old residues and what have you. (also I guess disputed). Based on the information available I would indeed say that wai does not qualify as either.
Taking the belief that we are on some level ruminant animal eaters it would be nonsensical to say that a a diet which entirely excluded such things fulfills all our nutritional and health requirements. In addition based on the belief that even including ruminant meat exclusive of things like organ meat and bone marrow is also an incomplete diet then just seafoods and eggs as an animal food source would be even more inadequate in fulfilling these needs for quality fat and protein as well as many micro-nutrients.
On top of that this whole idea of seeing a small amount of animal food as replacing missing nutrients in plants foods is just a false concept. Just as the amino acids in plants are not comparable to animal proteins, the proteins in eggs and seafood just do not fulfill all the requirements for protein in the body from repairing old cells to basic functioning. You can't say oh my raw vegan diet is just missing selenium and b-12 and fill that gap with a brazil nut and an egg yolk with token seafood and call that a natural diet. People criticize the food pyramids and such and say that these things are exaggerated when they actually underestimate what types of things we need and in what quantities. its really just a miracle that people can get very little true nutrition, and tons of poor nutrition/chemicals and do ok in some respects for a select period of time. In that respect of course people can show they can eat no animal foods and survive but overall its inaccurate to say it fulfills all the nutrition needs in micro or macronutrients. Fats like avocado or even oils may be OK but they dont substitute animal fats and saying that some oil and avocado is ok does not mean eating avocados and oil (and sugar) daily is a healthy or natural thing to do. To assume there is no problems with such or drinking juice because these are 'heath foods' is incorrect even if one can prove these are actually health forming foods.
What it comes down to is things like fruit juice, olive oil, sugar and yes - diets high in fruit can easily be traced to health issues so these are larger markers for an unhealthy diet than foods that contain 'anti-nutrients' or diets composed of sugar (carbs) that lack ruminant fats. The other flip side is this idea of avoiding 'anti-nutrtients' being somehow a validation that it is healthy. Firstly its a complete falsity that anti-nutrients have anything to do with 'anti-health' directly. anti-nutrients are just things that prevent nutrition from being absorbed from the plant itself. So this is something that unfortunately has seeped into this sites philosophy and has no presence in past hygine literature or Instincto or primal theory or any other raw information going back decades and probably began with RRM himself and was useful in explaining why people get the shits form veg juices or something or why fruit is tasty. The fact that cooking basically destroys most anit-nutrients yet creates other volatile compounds is reason to discount this terminology as being any marker where it lacking from a food having meaning anything in regards to whether it is health forming.
I could certainly go on about why I don't think such a diet actually heals the body or why I think people will inevitably shift even to a more inclusive cooked diet but for now hopefully that sum things up..at least from a 'paleo' perspective.
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Well, that's totally false. First of all, it is not based on my own biases, as Craig was involved in setting up the forum in that way, I made no decisions in that regard, it was all craig's idea, I merely stated which diets should have their own forums, not where they should be placed. Plus, GS and the other guy he cited view the Wai Diet as being "rawpalaeo", so clearly it's just you and Paleophil who are biased, nothing more.
The issue of "what is palaeo" is more complicated than you like to pretend. For example, on previous occasions you were on the war-path trying to denounce the Instincto Diet as not being truly "palaeo". Anyway, Craig seems to have shoved it into the "palaeo" section since he, like most others, viewed the Wai Diet as being primarily raw seafood and raw fruits, and because it was far more "rawpalaeo" than the primal diet or the weston-price diet. Putting the Wai Diet into its own category would be foolish as that would make it seem more important than it is.
As for the other point re creating another category for a diet with small amounts of dairy etc. to balance the Wai Diet, so far there isn't one, so it would be stupid to create a category for a diet that doesn't officially exist.
I think my complaints regarding instincto were mostly how its principles don't override other solutions for health and also that it wouldn't necessarily create the best health for a modern person or even likely that it would create a condition similar to how people ate in nature. Also various issues regarding things like the habits of animals which just arn't true in my understanding. So even if the theories I personally believe are artificial and perhaps a similar problem regarding importance but its clear that it fits at least the Cordain-type definition of excluding all neolithic foods and processing whereas wai does not..not in the least.
It really has nothing to do with my bias as to me Its just obvious that anyone on say a cooked paleo diet for instance would see Weston Price as closer to their ideals than the wai diet, of oil, sugar fruit juice and some grain and lacking meat and that wai diet is fairly embarrassing to be included as a paleolithic diet and has indeed been pointed out on other blogs and things. As for the dairy thing I would disagree it make no sense to create a diet as opposed to 'paleoizing' someone elses diet that is not paleo. There is also certainly way more people doing such a diet than the wai diet on this forum (maybe 20+ active people), but probably very little support for needing to qualify such a thing as a paleo diet. It makes much more sense to just have only paleo diets listed in the paleo section I would think.
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If you want my actual opinion I would say just your brief comment is typical per this conversation in its misrepresentation of what a healthy diet truly is. A healthy diet is something that is in line with what our ancestral makeup is ("what we are designed to eat" which of course is largely disputed) as well as something that is SHOWN to create best results in avoiding disease and repairing various issues/detoxing old residues and what have you. (also I guess disputed). Based on the information available I would indeed say that wai does not qualify as either.
This accusation is BOGUS.
Wait Diet is my diet of choice when curing Filipinos because it is DEAD EASY for Filipinos to adopt temporarily.
It is the very first intro diet to Raw Paleo Diet for the people I heal.
Filipinos have abundant fruits so that part is solved.
Filipinos have easy access to good eggs.
Filipinos have easy access to abundant fresh ocean FISH / sea food.
As I said before KD, your experience in your area and your preferences are not what others experience.
WAI DIET WORKS.
WAI DIET WORKS.
WAI DIET WORKS.
WAI DIET WORKS.
WAI DIET WORKS.
You want more?
WAI DIET WORKS.
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Your only hang up against Wai Diet is their recent refined sugar idiocy which can easily be solved with raw wild honey.
I agree re the sugar idiocy of some of them is idiotic.
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Sample recommendation I do for healing say someone with kidney problems:
- coconuts: meat and juice
- fruit in season
- raw egg yolks
- raw fish, raw shrimp "kinilaw" ( with kalamansi / lemon added )
- raw oysters
- tuna / blue marlin sashimi
Well HELLO... WAI DIET here.
7 days their kidney problems go away.
They can go back to their idiotic old cooked diet. And this works.
(You cannot tell a Filipino to eat raw beef or raw goat or raw lamb... it's way out of his mental paradigm!)
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To repeat: WAI DIET WORKS.
Just because some wai diet practitioners are idiots in their implementation does not condemn the entire dietary concept. Hell, there are raw paleo dieters who claim they are raw paleo dieters but suck at implementation.
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That's another thing, like GS said, the Wai Diet is sort of a useful intro to raw, palaeolithic diets as many people have an absolute horror of raw meats from land animals.
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I know this is a paleo forum, so don't kill me if any of my comments go against the raw paleo diet (and I'm not very familiar with it actually).
A healthy diet is something that is in line with what our ancestral makeup is ("what we are designed to eat" which of course is largely disputed) .
So our ancestors simply knew [better then we know now] what we are designed to eat, i.e. what's a healthy diet? I think we're much smarter now; we can take something like that ancestral makeup into account, but we can surely do better than our ancestors.
as well as something that is SHOWN to create best results in avoiding disease and repairing various issues/detoxing old residues and what have you (also I guess disputed).
I don't quite get the "repairing various issues/detoxing old residues" part. Your everyday diet should definitely not be some sort of a medicine. It should provide you with the nutrition you need and it should not create new problems/diseases in your body.
Taking the belief that we are on some level ruminant animal eaters it would be nonsensical to say that a a diet which entirely excluded such things fulfills all our nutritional and health requirements. In addition based on the belief that even including ruminant meat exclusive of things like organ meat and bone marrow is also an incomplete diet then just seafoods and eggs as an animal food source would be even more inadequate in fulfilling these needs for quality fat and protein as well as many micro-nutrients.
As far as I know the wai diet doesn't exclude them, but promotes fish and egg yolks as a more convenient alternative.
Your only hang up against Wai Diet is their recent refined sugar idiocy which can easily be solved with raw wild honey.
Honey is definitely not the kind of sugar I'd want to eat. Check http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/sugars-and-other-sweeteners/why-honey-is-a-harmful-food.html (http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/sugars-and-other-sweeteners/why-honey-is-a-harmful-food.html) for a quick overview, otherwise you can find quite a few papers on the internet.
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I'll assume Power is a long time Wai Dieter?
Awesome, we need more of you here.
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Quote from: KD on Today at 12:23:13 am
A healthy diet is something that is in line with what our ancestral makeup is ("what we are designed to eat" which of course is largely disputed) .
So our ancestors simply knew [better then we know now] what we are designed to eat, i.e. what's a healthy diet? I think we're much smarter now;
That wasn't KD's point. By ancestral makeup he indicated that he means "what we are designed to eat"--in other words, our biology today, not what some Stone Age ancestor "knew" in the past, which it's impossible to know today.
If we do have any longtime Wai dieters, I hope they'll contribute. Up till now it's only defenders have been folks who aren't even claiming to be doing Wai currently.
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If we do have any longtime Wai dieters, I hope they'll contribute. Up till now it's only defenders have been folks who aren't even claiming to be doing Wai currently.
But there are those claiming to have done the Wai Diet ages before.
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This accusation is BOGUS.
Wait Diet is my diet of choice when curing Filipinos because it is DEAD EASY for Filipinos to adopt temporarily.
Your only hang up against Wai Diet is their recent refined sugar idiocy which can easily be solved with raw wild honey.
I agree re the sugar idiocy of some of them is idiotic.
don't you also see many other equally non paleo solutions like cleanses, zappers, and even vegetable juices and The Primal Diet as possible 'cures' for contemporary people? That part we seem to share actually but the question is are these things 'raw paleo'? and the answer is no.
There are two different but parallel discussions here. The issue is - is it is repeatably being seen as a incomplete diet so that cannot be a plaeo diet even if it excludes the very intrinsic aspects outlined by its main practitioners. These of which being refined foods, sugars, neolithic foods and arbitrary application of some paleo foods but not other foods generally seen as completing a paleo diet. I don't have to object that in the short term a fruitarian diet or sprout diet might have 'excellent' benefits that are short term and transitional. are these paleo diets? no.
as you can see, you are already in a dispute over whether honey (a inarguable paleo food at least in terms of its paleolithic existence) in comparison to modern heated table sugar in terms of which is beneficial on a RAW paleo diet. I may have my 'preferences' based on my experiences and experiences just observing all manner of raw and cooked diets/leaders in comparison to one another to know that many of the 'hierarchies' people try to place do not match up with the health being delivered by such theories. Saying a cooked Primal Blueprint diet is more 'paleo' I do not believe is some stretch of the imagination for most people. That said all of the above discounts even the idea that even being healthy as a transition to qualify as a 'paleo' diet. Furthermore what is attributed as a 'success story' on this and other forums obviously completely displaced from reality as with many other cases where just being on a diet for a certain time tautologically proves the diet is good. I have plenty of friends passed their 10 year anniversary of being cooked vegans that outshine many people I have met in the last 6 years or so doing raw. Doesn't make their diet health forming per se or paleo.
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I'm doing it currently and I'm very happy with it. Not a long-time wai dieter though, it's been only 3-4 months so far.
I'm not consuming any processed sugar btw, nor the fruit juice + olive oil combination as I don't really need any extra energy. What I'm able to get daily from fruits, eggs and fish (and a few nuts from time to time) satisfies my needs perfectly fine.
The strongest point of the diet in my opinion is the very scientifically supported theory behind it. And of course the bonus of eliminating acne, in case you're susceptible to acne.
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That wasn't KD's point. By ancestral makeup he indicated that he means "what we are designed to eat"--in other words, our biology today, not what some Stone Age ancestor "knew" in the past, which it's impossible to know today.
So today we're not biologically suitable to eat fruits, egg yolks and fish (the staple foods of the wai diet)?
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So today we're not biologically suitable to eat fruits, egg yolks and fish (the staple foods of the wai diet)?
let me ask you a different question. At what point does a diet that includes these 'biologically appropriate' foods become unbalanced or out of bounds of the wai diet...or even becomes less healthy then a standard diet or cooked paleo diet? Is it if it consisted of 2 oz of fruit, 30 egg yolks and 1 small piece of fish, if it was 90 % of calories from fruit 5 % from fish and 5 % from egg yolks or if was almost entirely fish with minimal egg yolk or fruit? Is it at all possible that these diets are entirely different and have a different effect on the body even though they all lack the same things? Add in the more notorious things which are part of wai and this exacerbates what is good or bad in terms of diet.
The point is that it lacks certain things that are usually seen as crucial to health, crucial to being paleo (which is really the main discussion), and contains an ignorance to how even 'healthy' foods can create problems and imbalances that totally deficient crap diets even do not. Since there is 'science' that tries to back a vegan or fruit diet I can see how adding fish or eggs yolks seems to 'balance' that but theres multiple of reasons which I hardly scratched in terms of how such things can affect the health of a modern person negatively.
If a friend told me they were including alot more raw fruit, egg yolk and raw fish in their diet, I would be fairly happy. to inject my personal bias this would all go out the window if it was 90% fruit, contained massive amounts of refined sugar, olive oil and juiced fruits. If we were just talking about problems of deficiency it would be the last of which above being the least offensive and merely lacking quality animal fats and other micronutrients of a paleo diet and only being a long term concern. It likely being able to create a fair amount of health in the short term despite lacking other foods which would be good to add at any point. All egg yolk with small fish prtein/fruit being also a likely effective cleanse. But biases aside, either way the main issue is that no one really is suggesting wai is a proper paleo diet by definition..not that it is impossible to be healthy doing any number of things.
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let me ask you a different question. At what point does a diet that includes these 'biologically appropriate' foods become unbalanced or out of bounds of the wai diet...or even becomes less healthy then a standard diet or cooked paleo diet? Is it if it consisted of 2 oz of fruit, 30 egg yolks and 1 small piece of fish, if it was 90 % of calories from fruit 5 % from fish and 5 % from egg yolks or if was almost entirely fish with minimal egg yolk or fruit? Is it at all possible that these diets are entirely different and have a different effect on the body even though they all lack the same things? Add in the more notorious things which are part of wai and this exacerbates what is good or bad in terms of diet.
At the point when you don't really feel good anymore, you need to individually adapt it to yourself. This diet is not about some precise numbers but about learning to properly listen you body, give it the nutrients it needs when it needs. Most important point for succeeding is doing proper energy management, i.e. minimizing insulin/glucagon usage in the body. Sure, eating large amounts of protein + fat and neglecting carbs (as it seems to be the case with the paleo diet if I understood correctly) might be easier, but is this really optimal and healthier? Pushing certain nutrients when the body actually prefers different nutrients for certain processes.
The point is that it lacks certain things that are usually seen as crucial to health, crucial to being paleo (which is really the main discussion)
Crucial to being paleo maybe, but crucial to health? Can you point out these certain things that it lacks?
If a friend told me they were including alot more raw fruit, egg yolk and raw fish in their diet, I would be fairly happy. to inject my personal bias this would all go out the window if it was 90% fruit, contained massive amounts of refined sugar, olive oil and juiced fruits. If we were just talking about problems of deficiency it would be the last of which above being the least offensive and merely lacking quality animal fats and other micronutrients of a paleo diet and only being a long term concern. It likely being able to create a fair amount of health in the short term despite lacking other foods which would be good to add at any point. All egg yolk with small fish prtein/fruit being also a likely effective cleanse. But biases aside, either way the main issue is that no one really is suggesting wai is a proper paleo diet by definition..not that it is impossible to be healthy doing any number of things.
A ok, so the certain things it lacks are: protein?, quality animal fats, and other micronutrients.
Protein: check http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html
Animal fats: do fatty fish (e.g. salmon) and egg yolk not contain high quality animal fats? Are the fats in other animals somehow special and superior?
Other micronutrients: which ones?
Again, animal meat/organs is not something that's banned from the diet. As far as I know RRM himself consumes organs when he can get high quality products. Check maybe http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=518&start=30 or more specifically http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=23714#p23714
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At the point when you don't really feel good anymore, you need to individually adapt it to yourself. This diet is not about some precise numbers but about learning to properly listen you body, give it the nutrients it needs when it needs. Most important point for succeeding is doing proper energy management, i.e. minimizing insulin/glucagon usage in the body. Sure, eating large amounts of protein + fat and neglecting carbs (as it seems to be the case with the paleo diet if I understood correctly) might be easier, but is this really optimal and healthier? Pushing certain nutrients when the body actually prefers different nutrients for certain processes.
Crucial to being paleo maybe, but crucial to health? Can you point out these certain things that it lacks?
ok its clear that you are an intelligent and open minded person and I really don't have an interest in carrying this on back and forth to convince you of anything. I can totally see how it can seem superficial but really the issue at hand is this diet not being a paleo diet and how there is constant mixed message/biases regarding which things are bad and which things are good and now which things are 'paleo' on this forum to leverage over other things. The fact that there are admitted hierarchies as to which diets are 'more paleo' independent of how healthy they are is a problem and that is what I said. This technically doesn't say that wai is unhealthy, only its healthfulness as along term diet is not being considered and merely its lack of dairy foods and not being vegan.
Paleo diets as described here are not by default low carb -at all. Don't know what you mean by easier.
The more I get sucked into what I truly believe the messier this discussion is going to get, so it sounds like you at least have your head in the right place as what 'ideologies' ultimately are important or not and I would say just explore the other ideas here.
the only other thing I can say to this and regarding your intial points which does tie into what makes it "not paleo" is that there is protein and some fat in seafood and egg yolks and these are not-"NOT" suitable, but they arn't really a representation of what we are adapted to eat and do not represent the full range of what we need. There is plenty of information on the internet about this as well as anecdotal info from raw foodists. On top of that it would appear as I said that adding fish and egg yolk would correct the problems of vegetarianism but its the other aspects of the diet which I believe (and you can disagree) would make it more precarious then tradtional veg diets or diets containing lots of seafoods.
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Yes I was only interested in discussing, it's not in my interest to defend it blindly or attack anyone here. At the moment the wai diet seems like the healthiest option to me, but of course I'm not married to it :) If it gets properly debunked, me (and other wai dieters) can only benefit from that. But true, I might have misinterpreted your posts about it being unhealthy; I find it hard understanding your posts in general, maybe it's my english, or maybe you over-complicate things a bit.
Paleo diets as described here are not by default low carb -at all.
From the diets listed in the raw paleo diet forum, the first two seem to be pretty low carb, then there's the wai diet (for which we figured is not paleo?), so there's only the instincto that seem to allow for more carbs.
Don't know what you mean by easier.
I mean you can in general afford to eat bigger protein/fat meals as they won't spike blood sugar so much. On a more fruit-based diet you need to be a bit more disciplined, you can't just eat 1000 calories of fruits [+fat] in one sitting. It's harder because we usually tend to like over-eating, but it's very rewarding -- steady energy levels, smooth digestion, etc.
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The strongest point of the diet in my opinion is the very scientifically supported theory behind it.
Thanks for the input. What is your understanding of the scientific theory behind it and why do you feel it's the strongest point?
So today we're not biologically suitable to eat fruits, egg yolks and fish (the staple foods of the wai diet)?
Where did he write that? I didn't get that impression from what he wrote.
Try looking at the big picture of the whole diet rather than focusing on the details of one or two foods. If you look at the big picture of the whole diet, then if it relies solely on egg yolks and fish, some questions to ask are, are there any potential imbalances that could come from excluding all other foods and why are you excluding all other foods? Are you claiming that the other foods (raw fruits, roots, meats, organs, animal fats, etc.) are not acceptable on Wai or that you are not biologically adapted to them or that they are not healthy or not consumed by your Stone Age ancestors or shown to be dangerous by scientific research or what? Do you consider a diet that is restricted to just egg yolks and fish for all to be a truly raw Paleo diet in the full, holistic, biological and health sense of the term that I and KD described above or do you see it as a further restriction, beyond what is normally recommended by Paleo proponents, for therapeutic purposes? Do you feel that other people should avoid all foods other than egg yolks and fish for their health?
From the diets listed in the raw paleo diet forum, the first two seem to be pretty low carb, then there's the wai diet (for which we figured is not paleo?), so there's only the instincto that seem to allow for more carbs.
I don't consider omnivorous raw Paleo diet as necessarily low carb, but I can understand why you would think so from the description: "Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet Animal products with some veggies, berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added to the mix."
Now that you mention it, that does seem somewhat LC and a rather overly strict definition that apparently doesn't even allow domesticated fruits and only "some veggies, berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added to the mix," which is rather ironic if the definition of raw Paleo is being stretched to include the Wai diet.
On a more fruit-based diet you need to be a bit more disciplined, you can't just eat 1000 calories of fruits [+fat] in one sitting. It's harder because we usually tend to like over-eating, but it's very rewarding -- steady energy levels, smooth digestion, etc.
That's sounds like part of what KD and I have been trying to explain--that it's possible for there to be imbalances and pitfalls even if one is eating only Paleo foods like raw fruits (or even raw "non-domesticated, wild fruits" as mentioned above).
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Raw omnivore that I practice here in Manila is not necessarily low carb. Neither is instincto necessarily low or high carb, it depends on your body's requirements at the moment.
It can get high fat and high carb if I add raw wild honey. Plus our FRUITS are DOMESTIC and organic / wild by default. We've got tons of fruit here... our country is blessed with it non-stop. The anti-fruit people wouldn't understand unless they visit us and go on a road trip.
High Fat and High Carb are beneficial things to do / healthy for those with low metabolism, low body temperature.
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I'm surprised that the section description only says that raw omnivore includes "berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added" and doesn't even mention organic domesticated fruits. It's stricter than I realized. Does this mean that the organic and conventional domesticated fruits I sometimes eat are not regarded as sufficiently "Paleo" here? :o
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I'm surprised that the section description only says that raw omnivore includes "berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added" and doesn't even mention organic domesticated fruits. It's stricter than I realized. Does this mean that the organic and conventional domesticated fruits I sometimes eat are not regarded as sufficiently "Paleo" here? :o
I agree we need better descriptions.
Try opening a new thread and suggest new descriptions for our sections.
They haven't been updated for a long time.
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Thanks for the input. What is your understanding of the scientific theory behind it and why do you feel it's the strongest point?
Well none of the raw diets have been around for long enough to know how it works in the long term; at least the theory behind the wai diet is extensively backed up by scientifically proven and logically sound facts and claims. I don't have that much time to write about my understanding, all information is published on the website so you could simply have a look there.
Try looking at the big picture of the whole diet rather than focusing on the details of one or two foods. If you look at the big picture of the whole diet, then if it relies solely on egg yolks and fish...
It doesn't rely solely on egg yolks and fish.
I don't consider omnivorous raw Paleo diet as necessarily low carb, but I can understand why you would think so from the description: "Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet Animal products with some veggies, berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added to the mix."
Yes that's exactly what I thought from the forum description, it seems like it makes it really hard to get some carbs with those restrictions.
Is there some freely available, nice description of the raw paleo diet (with something more than a short description of a subforum)? Preferably not some huge book, but rather an article or something similar. What is THE reference for the raw paleo diet?
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I'm surprised that the section description only says that raw omnivore includes "berries, and non-domesticated, wild fruits added" and doesn't even mention organic domesticated fruits. It's stricter than I realized. Does this mean that the organic and conventional domesticated fruits I sometimes eat are not regarded as sufficiently "Paleo" here? :o
Without having read extensively about the raw paleo diet, I'd say you're making some compromises here just as it's done in the wai diet. I don't think people in paleo times were growing [organic] domesticated fruits. We are not living in the paleo era, a diet besides being healthy should be also as convenient as possible. Now I'm pretty sure domesticated fruits don't fit into the paleo definition, but I don't think having those makes a diet less paleo. We're simply smarter now, why not use that to our benefit? Domesticated fruits are still the same stuff as wild fruits, just a bit more convenient for us.
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Well none of the raw diets have been around for long enough to know how it works in the long term;
Raw Paleo diets were the sole dietary style of all primates up to at least 1.9 mya if not more recently (and Tyler has argued strenuously that it continued on raw for more than a million more years) and going back millions of years to the very dawn of life on this planet. Paleo diets that included cooked foods continued for most humans right up until around 10 thousand years ago and continued further for some.
at least the theory behind the wai diet is extensively backed up by scientifically proven and logically sound facts and claims.
So you claim. I have seen plenty of science backing Paleo and raw. I haven't come across any yet supporting a Wai diet specifically.
It doesn't rely solely on egg yolks and fish.
I meant to include fruits--sorry about that--and you also mentioned nuts, but you're ducking some of the questions. I'll take your lack of answer re: KD to mean that you acknowledge that he didn't write that "we're not biologically suitable to eat fruits, egg yolks and fish."
Again, why are you excluding all other foods beyond fruits, egg yolks, fish and some nuts? Is there something wrong with nonfish-meats, organs, animal fats and veggies?
Is there some freely available, nice description of the raw paleo diet (with something more than a short description of a subforum)?
There is http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/, though I don't agree 100% with all of it and there is a variety of views within the broader Paleo dieting community.
What is THE reference for the raw paleo diet?
Tyler seems to be the self-appointed Minister of Truth when it comes to what is raw Paleo. ;) To me, the specific foods are less important than the fundamental scientific model, avoiding the worst of the Neolithic agents (within which I would include refined and heated sweeteners like processed sucrose), and overall balance in the diet. Biological adaptation (or design if you're a creationist) vs. discordance seems to be key, much of the rest is details and people will argue forever over the details.
Do you or Wai claim that his diet is a raw Paleo diet? If so, feel free to make the case--such as, what is the fundamental scientific hypothesis that underlies it all?
...I'd say you're making some compromises here just as it's done in the wai diet.
I don't claim to eat 100% raw Paleo and if I were eating Wai I wouldn't either.
I don't think people in paleo times were growing [organic] domesticated fruits. We are not living in the paleo era....
Straw man. I haven't seen any of the leading proponents of raw or cooked Paleo claim that we are living in the Paleo era. They only talk about approximating the diet we're adapted to, not precisely duplicating it, which it doesn't take a genius to figure would be impossible.
a diet besides being healthy should be also as convenient as possible.
Now I'm pretty sure domesticated fruits don't fit into the paleo definition, but I don't think having those makes a diet less paleo.
How can both of those statements be true? Clearly domesticated fruits are less Paleo in the sense of less like the wild African and Eurasian fruits of the Paleolithic era. That doesn't necessarily mean that no one can get away with including domesticated fruits in their diet without spoiling their health.
Domesticated fruits are still the same stuff as wild fruits, just a bit more convenient for us.
What is your evidence that the only difference between wild and domesticated fruits is convenience and what do you mean by it exactly?