Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: mentisafer on November 30, 2009, 02:56:53 pm

Title: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mentisafer on November 30, 2009, 02:56:53 pm
Hi, I've bought raw honey from the store, and was wondering since there are two brands available, and they are quite different; one is Really Raw Honey and the other is Heavenly Organics. Both claim to be raw, unheated, organic. Really Raw brand looks white, creamy and has some wax and pollen at the top. It is very thick. Heavenly Organics brand looks just like a regular honey, it is runny and amber, but it has a label USDA Organic. Is it possible that this is not really unprocessed? Which one is better? Maybe both are ok and just different kinds?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on November 30, 2009, 03:19:17 pm
    I think sage honey I think is supposed to be runny.  I don't like it though.  I tried a honey labeled unheated that looked otherwise, and it gave me a bad reaction that lasted for months.  I find runny amber regular looking as honey suspect, as well as any USDA label.  I've never heard of Heavenly Organics.  I have tried Really Raw Honey, and it stands the tests of making the foods I ferment grow good microorganisms. 
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on November 30, 2009, 05:10:36 pm
I'm going to post about this on the Primal Diet yahoo group and let you know. They seem more aware of this issue and know about all the genuine 100% raw brands - not surprising as they eat so much raw honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mentisafer on December 01, 2009, 04:46:33 am
Thank you guys; last night, as I was posting, I was getting a bad sore throat from going out the night before to the bars to drink beer and smoke cigarettes(I habit I'm trying to quit). Then I opened the jar of honey that looks amber and runny, Heavenly Organics, a little worried that the label unheated might be fake. Well, I ate 3 spoonfuls, and within 20 minutes the sore-throat was gone. Unbelievable, it normally takes days or weeks to get rid of it. And today no sore at all. But I'm gonna stick to Real Raw since it looks more authentic. I thought I should post this little experiment though.
Please let me know what the guys at the other forum say.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: ezekiel on December 01, 2009, 05:12:04 am
You could try finding actual honey comb. That is your best bet as far as quality, health, and taste in my opinion.

http://www.tassotapiaries.com/images/Honey%20Comb%202.JPG

http://www.kallashoney.com/retail.html     Check the specialty items for honey comb.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mentisafer on December 01, 2009, 05:28:13 am
Does the honeycomb guarantee it is unheated? I remember eating honeycomb at a monastery, it was delicious.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: ezekiel on December 01, 2009, 05:41:50 am
Does the honeycomb guarantee it is unheated? I remember eating honeycomb at a monastery, it was delicious.
Yes. Just make sure its only honey comb, not honey comb in a jar surrounded by liquid honey.
Liquid honey is usually heated then filtered. Some honey is slightly heated to make it liquid, not necessarily cooked, but then filtered.
Your safest and healthiest bet is with local or close to home honey comb. Also the wax in honey comb turns to a gum kind of, and actually lifts the honey out of the crevices in your teeth somewhat.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: djr_81 on December 01, 2009, 07:12:41 am
Thank you guys; last night, as I was posting, I was getting a bad sore throat from going out the night before to the bars to drink beer and smoke cigarettes(I habit I'm trying to quit). Then I opened the jar of honey that looks amber and runny, Heavenly Organics, a little worried that the label unheated might be fake. Well, I ate 3 spoonfuls, and within 20 minutes the sore-throat was gone. Unbelievable, it normally takes days or weeks to get rid of it. And today no sore at all. But I'm gonna stick to Real Raw since it looks more authentic. I thought I should post this little experiment though.
Please let me know what the guys at the other forum say.
Thanks.
Honey is a fantastic throat aid, whether heated or raw. I remember as a kid when I'd get a sore throat I'd have a mug of hot tea made from marshmallow with a bit of slippery elm and a spoonful of honey. :)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: ezekiel on December 01, 2009, 07:23:57 am
Honey is a fantastic throat aid, whether heated or raw. I remember as a kid when I'd get a sore throat I'd have a mug of hot tea made from marshmallow with a bit of slippery elm and a spoonful of honey. :)
Actually some highly sweet things seem to cause throat irritation for me. Makes it kinda soar. Don't remember if raw honey comb did this (not up for an experiment though). But sure raw honey could cause problems in excess, just like many foods.. Hot water is another story though. That seems work on a soar throat.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on December 01, 2009, 07:50:59 am
Honey is a fantastic throat aid, whether heated or raw. I remember as a kid when I'd get a sore throat I'd have a mug of hot tea made from marshmallow with a bit of slippery elm and a spoonful of honey. :)

    You probably ate carbs as a kid?  The herbal extract could have given more benefit, or maybe even the warmth what helped.  It's nice to feel something warm sometimes, especially or sore parts.

    Or the rare occasion I get a cold or sore throat, I may mix good raw apple cider vinegar, unheated honey and fresh lemon in the morning.  That usually takes care of it if I do that.  I might do it several mornings in a row if need be. 

   
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 01, 2009, 12:23:53 pm
Actually some highly sweet things seem to cause throat irritation for me. Makes it kinda soar. Don't remember if raw honey comb did this (not up for an experiment though). But sure raw honey could cause problems in excess, just like many foods.. Hot water is another story though. That seems work on a soar throat.
Me too. Honey, even pure raw honeycomb, gives me a scratchy throat for some reason. Never worked to soothe my throat. A little soothes my stomach, but if I eat too much it makes me nauseous.

In strange contrast, elderberry syrup, which is also sugary, soothes my throat faster and better than anything. I don't know why.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on December 01, 2009, 07:04:39 pm
Honey is a fantastic throat aid, whether heated or raw. I remember as a kid when I'd get a sore throat I'd have a mug of hot tea made from marshmallow with a bit of slippery elm and a spoonful of honey. :)

 I agree. I used honey for sore throats pre-rawpalaeodiet and it worked wonders for me.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: whatever on December 01, 2009, 07:52:14 pm
Discovered raw honey 2 weeks ago a tiny amount of it with each bite of raw meat hmmmmmm. Very very good.  :)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on December 01, 2009, 08:17:12 pm
Discovered raw honey 2 weeks ago a tiny amount of it with each bite of raw meat hmmmmmm. Very very good.  :)

Hmm, it's common to glaze cooked meat with honey, but I've never tried mixing the two when raw. Might have a go.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on December 02, 2009, 12:00:46 am
Raw unheated honey or honeycomb is especially delicious when combined with mutton suet.
With egg yolks it's also toothsome.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mentisafer on December 02, 2009, 05:10:21 am
Raw unheated honey or honeycomb is especially delicious when combined with mutton suet.
With egg yolks it's also toothsome.

Hey that's great! It hadn't occurred to me before when I ate bone marrow and made me gag, had to spread it on bread. I'm gonna try this, I guess it must taste like a kind of sweet cream.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on December 02, 2009, 06:35:59 am
Raw unheated honey or honeycomb is especially delicious when combined with mutton suet.
With egg yolks it's also toothsome.
  Sounds like a wonderful idea. I find most of the suet I've had from various sources to be far too bland - i usually prefer raw marrow.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on December 02, 2009, 06:37:05 am
I checked with the primal diet yahoo group, and so far I've had 2 people complain severely about the Really Raw brand, considering it to be unlikely to be genuinely raw or of high-quality. No comment yet on Heavenly Organics Honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: djr_81 on December 02, 2009, 06:57:56 am
I checked with the primal diet yahoo group, and so far I've had 2 people complain severely about the Really Raw brand, considering it to be unlikely to be genuinely raw or of high-quality. No comment yet on Heavenly Organics Honey.
I've had it many times in the past(actually, have some in the house for my wife right now). It has a thick layer of cappings, wax, etc. and is a very opaque with a thick consistency. It is very sweet though which I've noticed others equating to processing. I'd say it might be raw but have no guarantees.

On the topic of honey; anyone ever use Manuka honey? It's supposed to be one of the most antiseptic & analgesic of the honeys available and I've seen it recommended for topical healing purposes. Tastes awful IMO though.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on December 02, 2009, 08:28:23 am
I've had it many times in the past(actually, have some in the house for my wife right now). It has a thick layer of cappings, wax, etc. and is a very opaque with a thick consistency. It is very sweet though which I've noticed others equating to processing. I'd say it might be raw but have no guarantees.

On the topic of honey; anyone ever use Manuka honey? It's supposed to be one of the most antiseptic & analgesic of the honeys available and I've seen it recommended for topical healing purposes. Tastes awful IMO though.

    The only thing I don't like about Really Raw Honey brand, is that the label only mentions Baltimore, while I hear the honey actually comes from upstate NY. 

    I have tried manuka.  I can't stand the taste either.  I don't recommend it for this reason. 

    I like Brazilian peppertree honey from Honey Pacifica, and dislike Russian honey yuck!  I don't remember the brand, but it was from Russia and I bought it in a store here in the US.  It smelled like rat urine.  Not saying whether rat urine is a health food or not, Idk, but I don't expect it in my honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 02, 2009, 09:32:33 am
I agree. I used honey for sore throats pre-rawpalaeodiet and it worked wonders for me.
Interesting. I wonder if there's a correlation here--maybe people who are more carb sensitive, like me, are more prone to the scratchy/tingly-throat-&-tongue effect (does anyone know what causes that?) and less prone to the soothing-throat effect?

Because of the slightly negative effects I get from raw honey, I was quite surprised when I did rather well with mead. However, much of the sugar is converted into alcohol in mead, of course.

I've noticed that the negative effects I experience from honey are much less pronounced in raw honey than in heated honey, and raw honey definitely tastes way, way better, of course. As a matter of fact, before I threw out some conventional honey I had, I tried some of it and found that since going raw carnivore it tastes sickeningly sweet and semi-burnt to me. Disgusting! It amazes me that I used to like that stuff.

Also, as my health has improved, I seem to handle raw honey better on those occasions when I try it.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: djr_81 on December 02, 2009, 09:46:53 am
Interesting. I wonder if there's a correlation here--maybe people who are more carb sensitive, like me, are more prone to the scratchy/tingly-throat-&-tongue effect (does anyone know what causes that?) and less prone to the soothing-throat effect?
No. I'm about as carb sensitive as you get before diabetes and even last year the honey had a soothing effect.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on December 02, 2009, 10:02:46 am
Interesting. I wonder if there's a correlation here--maybe people who are more carb sensitive, like me, are more prone to the scratchy/tingly-throat-&-tongue effect (does anyone know what causes that?) and less prone to the soothing-throat effect?


    Raw royal jelly and a few other foods make my throat and tongue like that.  In the royal jelly I wondered if it had anything to do with bee venom.

Because of the slightly negative effects I get from raw honey, I was quite surprised when I did rather well with mead. However, much of the sugar is converted into alcohol in mead, of course.

    Lots of (raw) foods that I can't handle plain, I do well with fermented.

No. I'm about as carb sensitive as you get before diabetes and even last year the honey had a soothing effect.

    I read in AV's writings that the only sugars he can handle are raw milk drank at the same time both at least room temperature and even then sipped very slowly, unheated (not more than 93 degreesF) unfiltered honey and unripe organic date eaten with lots of raw fat.  He was diagnosed type one diabetes when he was fifteen and supplemental insulin injection dependent, and says he's still very sensitive to fruit sugar etc.  I confirmed the type one diabetes part with him personally.  I didn't ask him in person about the fruit.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Ioanna on December 02, 2009, 10:49:03 am
so I looked  at the honey at whole foods.. I saw the Heavenly Organics... the label says "unheated".  There is also Manuka that is labeled "raw"... I don't know the technical difference in something labeled unheated vs raw?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Raw Kyle on December 02, 2009, 10:59:16 am
so I looked  at the honey at whole foods.. I saw the Heavenly Organics... the label says "unheated".  There is also Manuka that is labeled "raw"... I don't know the technical difference in something labeled unheated vs raw?

I think "raw" with honey doesn't necessarily mean anything, but "unheated" does. Unheated means that they didn't use any extra heat to get the honey out, or filter it. Raw is like "organic," with no strict definition. It could mean, to the company making the label, that it's "pure" honey or "natural" honey, not necessarily uncooked. That is not to say that honey labeled raw isn't really raw, just that honey labeled unheated is always raw, from my experience and research. I usually just rotate the jar and check how viscous it is, if it slows very easily then it's probably not raw. I could be wrong, but most of the truly raw honeys I've had were very viscous, some almost solid at room temperature.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mentisafer on December 02, 2009, 11:10:10 am
well, Really Raw brand is actually as thick as butter, it will not move unless you scoop it out; Heavenly Organics has the label unheated, but who knows if it's true, it is really liquid like egg whites. And also it is supposed to be from the Himalayas. Long ways to America, shouldn't it be solid? Sounds suspicious.
Tyler, do you know why the people at Primal Diet Forum think Really Raw Honey isn't unheated?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Ioanna on December 02, 2009, 11:20:50 am
I wonder if 'unheated' has some technical definition that it is just not heat beyond a certain temperature...IDK.  If it really means unheated, then the Heavenly Organics should be truly a raw honey.  The Manuka honey that was labeled raw was more than twice as expensive if that indicates anything.  I know what you mean though about the label 'raw'... like almonds that are now pasteurized are labeled 'raw' when they don't have salt, etc on them.  

As for viscosity... I was told that any honey that is liquid has been heated and filtered and definitely not a truly raw honey.  but I once went to a farmers market where there was a farmer with what he said was raw honey and it was like something that comes in a plastic bear in the store kind of consistency.  I told him that I thought honey had to have been heated/filtered to look that way, but he insisted it came straight from the hive.  I checked out his website too, claims to be truly 'straight from the hive' and fresh.  He did also sell a jar of honey combined with bee pollen and another of honey combined with ... something else that is supposed to be antibacterial... drawing a blank... anyway, those items are in a jar and have a very thick consistency that I would not even consider a liquid... it's soft, but it's not moving unless you scoop it out with a spoon.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Ioanna on December 02, 2009, 11:27:00 am
I couldn't believe that anything sold in a store is really raw anyway.. labels are so deceiving. I guess your body can tell you if it is good for you or not though.

When I used to eat honey, I got it from a farmer's market, and even then I was skeptical... but it was really good!!!  
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: cherimoya_kid on December 02, 2009, 11:27:12 am
Anyone who wants to know what truly raw honey flows like needs to just buy some honeycomb.  The proof is right there.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Ioanna on December 02, 2009, 11:41:33 am
now I want honey!...  I don't think it would work for me though :(

ck, where do you get honey comb?  I don't think that was available even at the farmer's market, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: ezekiel on December 02, 2009, 12:06:59 pm
now I want honey!...  I don't think it would work for me though :(

ck, where do you get honey comb?  I don't think that was available even at the farmer's market, but I could be wrong.

http://www.kallashoney.com/retail.html     Check the specialty items for honey comb.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mentisafer on December 02, 2009, 12:13:10 pm
I had honeycomb before; I actually lived with the monks who had it and except for the wax, the honey was pretty liquid, probably even more than regular honey; I remember they had a transparent honey and a dark amber. They said it depends on what flower the bees eat from. And I also remember sometimes the honey had a slightly putrid smell mixed in. Nothing really bad, more like the smell of blood in ground meat.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on December 02, 2009, 02:41:08 pm
In Poland it's quite good, because I can buy directly from trustworthy local beekeepers; I never buy in shops
When the honey is fresh it's liquid - after several months it cristalizes.
It's also important what kind of food the bees are given - white sugar (quite often) or honey
Raw honeycombs are the best, but it's very important that the cells are covered (not open) and the honey that is inside is dense and mature. I asked many people who eat honeycombs and they do not eat wax - they chew it and throw away
I eat the whole honeycomb, as only that way I can get all the nutrients.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on December 02, 2009, 06:24:11 pm
well, Really Raw brand is actually as thick as butter, it will not move unless you scoop it out; Heavenly Organics has the label unheated, but who knows if it's true, it is really liquid like egg whites. And also it is supposed to be from the Himalayas. Long ways to America, shouldn't it be solid? Sounds suspicious.
Tyler, do you know why the people at Primal Diet Forum think Really Raw Honey isn't unheated?

All I can do is give you the original e-mails:-

"I first started using "Really Raw Honey". I didn't even finish the jar off. It
seemed to give me a lot of problems, like what seemed to be hypoglycemic attacks
especially. I would eat some, by itself or with butter as in the "honey/butter
combination", and within 5 to 10 minutes I would feel like my blood sugar would
shoot downwards. A few times it was bad enough that I couldn't sit up and had to
lay down while eating something to revive me. I started wondering if it really
was unheated/raw, but I never experienced a blood sugar spike before the drop
downwards. In the books, AV mentions that there is some sort of insulin in
unheated honey, so I thought perhaps it was this that was causing my problems.
If I was already hungry and ate some of the "Really Raw Honey", the subsequent
hypoglycemic attack would be particularly bad, i.e., adding insulin to a blood
stream already low in sugar is going to cause it to drop even lower.

I've been using "Honey Pacifica" brand and so far I haven't had these problems.
I've been meaning to check my blood sugar while eating the honey to see what the
readings come out like."

As far as "Really Raw Honey" goes, I don't know if it is really raw or not, but
I certainly don't plan on using in the future. On the plus side, I thought it
tasted great."
and :- "I had the same problem with Really Raw years ago. Really the usual lies."

My view is this:- avoid buying any raw honey, even honeycomb, from continents away. For example, I'm extremely wary of honeycomb sold from New Zealand but will happily buy honeycomb from local farmers' markets as I'm more sure of its rawness and high-quality. The thing is that international laws encourage producers to apply pasteurisation(despite the fact that raw honeycomb lasts forever). At any rate, I have had awful issues with every kind of so-called "raw-labelled" liquid honey imaginable, within the UK. I think it's because of UK laws which allow honey to be labelled raw even if it's heated to 80 degrees Celsius for a short time.

I have heard from a beekeeper that it is possible to produce genuinely raw liquid honey in a jar but he said he would have to charge much more as it would require doing it by hand instead of producing it via a machine.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 03, 2009, 06:31:49 am
Quote
I would eat some, by itself or with butter as in the "honey/butter
combination", and within 5 to 10 minutes I would feel like my blood sugar would
shoot downwards. A few times it was bad enough that I couldn't sit up and had to
lay down while eating something to revive me. I started wondering if it really
was unheated/raw, but I never experienced a blood sugar spike before the drop
downwards.
What would account for hypoglycemia from honey? My understanding is that heated honey can cause the opposite--hypERglycemia.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on December 03, 2009, 06:44:39 am
"... I didn't even finish the jar off. It seemed to give me a lot of problems, like what seemed to be hypoglycemic attacks especially. I would eat some, by itself or with butter as in the "honey/butter combination", and within 5 to 10 minutes I would feel like my blood sugar would shoot downwards. A few times it was bad enough that I couldn't sit up and had to lay down while eating something to revive me. I started wondering if it really was unheated/raw, but I never experienced a blood sugar spike before the drop downwards. In the books, AV mentions that there is some sort of insulin in unheated honey, so I thought perhaps it was this that was causing my problems.

    As I understand the primal diet, the honey butter is 1:8 honey to butter.  The honey is never eaten alone, is it?  The writer of this letter sounds like he/she's practicing a different diet.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on December 03, 2009, 06:49:17 am
Primal Dieters do eat raw honey on its own, although the honey /butter combination is popular.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on December 03, 2009, 07:10:15 am
Primal Dieters do eat raw honey on its own, although the honey /butter combination is popular.

    I kind of fluctuate between primal and paleo.  Honey alone?  Like a bear?  Some how I thought we were supposed to focus on fat with everything.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on December 04, 2009, 05:13:05 pm
I asked this question several times, but nobody knew the answer -
Is it any proof that insulin-like substance converts 90% of the carbs in nectar into enzymes?
If this statement is true that will make a lot of difference re counting carbs.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: sanborn on January 12, 2010, 02:30:16 pm
Hello, Honey lovers!  The availability of truly unheated, uncooked, not smoked honey depends somewhat on where you live.  Aajonus did an investigation of what the various companies ACTUALLY DO in harvesting their honey.  REALLY RAW is on the list as being really raw and unheated !  Heavenly organics is not.  There are some very reliable companies that ship also such as the one I use (I am in southern California).  Aajonus' list of producers and distributors covers much more than unheated honey - coconut cream, royal jelly, raw fresh dairy, never frozen, unsalted cheese etc, beef, buffalo & poultry sources, and much more - it is 10 pages of small print with urls, email address, physical addresses, phone #s and a few words about what they do.  The link is on the site that features his work: http://www.wewant2live.com/site/811618/product/RPD-01
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on January 12, 2010, 07:05:37 pm
Hmm, various posts on the  Primal Diet yahoo group were extremely critical of Really Raw Honey suggesting it wasn't really raw at all.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 14, 2010, 12:00:16 pm
    I kind of fluctuate between primal and paleo.  Honey alone?  ...
fyi: bears eat the fat-rich bee grubs along with the honey and comb (as do hunter-gatherers). A nature show I watched said that the grubs are actually their favorite part to eat. Could that be why Aajonus recommends butter with honey? Too bad grub comb isn't sold commercially in the USA. It might be fun to try once.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on January 14, 2010, 12:14:34 pm
Hmm, various posts on the  Primal Diet yahoo group were extremely critical of Really Raw Honey suggesting it wasn't really raw at all.

    I wish you could try it.  It's my son's favorite.  We try other raw honeys, but they just taste like sugar at best.  He depends on honey as it's a good deal of his diet.  He is making improvements to his health.  He was not before this honey.

fyi: bears eat the fat-rich bee grubs along with the honey and comb (as do hunter-gatherers). A nature show I watched said that the grubs are actually their favorite part to eat. Could that be why Aajonus recommends butter with honey? Too bad grub comb isn't sold commercially in the USA. It might be fun to try once.

    I would love to try eating grubs.  I don't often run across hives and have not since I started eating (raw) animal products.  I did hear bugs are full of the best fats.  I imagine young beings like grubs would have even better fats.

I asked this question several times, but nobody knew the answer -
Is it any proof that insulin-like substance converts 90% of the carbs in nectar into enzymes?
If this statement is true that will make a lot of difference re counting carbs.

    Must be true.  It grows good stuff on my fruit and milk (separately).
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: extralizard13 on January 14, 2010, 12:46:30 pm
Yes. Just make sure its only honey comb, not honey comb in a jar surrounded by liquid honey.

What does that indicate? I happened to have had a jar of it in the house before I found out about this diet. It looks interesting to try, so I bought it. Mine is Gunter's Pure Honey Comb.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on January 14, 2010, 06:02:32 pm
What does that indicate? I happened to have had a jar of it in the house before I found out about this diet. It looks interesting to try, so I bought it. Mine is Gunter's Pure Honey Comb.
  Any honey put in a jar is 99.9% of the time likely to have been heated beforehand, judging from my own experience. A beekeeper explained to me once that to get the honey into the jar without significant heating, you have to do all the honey production manually instead of via machines, which was not cost-effective for him, really.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: cliff on March 09, 2010, 12:32:31 am
Unless the honey states on the jar it was cold packed it was most likley heated via centrifuge to make it runny enough to bottle. http://honeypacifica.com/coldpacked.htm is a great source for cold packed honey, i really recommend the wild flower variety
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on March 09, 2010, 04:52:57 am
  Any honey put in a jar is 99.9% of the time likely to have been heated beforehand, judging from my own experience. A beekeeper explained to me once that to get the honey into the jar without significant heating, you have to do all the honey production manually instead of via machines, which was not cost-effective for him, really.
I spoke with a local honey producer and he told me that the honey starts to solidify as it ages in the season, so the best thing to do is to buy a large bucket of whatever you figure you need till next season. Price is a lot cheaper as you are not paying for bottles and filling them etc. When it starts to harden it must be heated to around 120 so it will pour. So I suggest contacting the beekeeper at the start of the season and telling them you want honey that has not been heated at all. I am sure they will oblige. Just look them up in the yellow pages or go to a local health food store or two till you find one that buys local honey and find out where they buy it from. It will be marked on the bottle. It's worth it. BTW there are different varieties and basically pick whichever flavour you like the most. I would tend to avoid honey from areas where there is GMO crops grown like corn. Otherwise any stories about one type of honey as being superior is likely to be marketing.

Just because non-pasteurized is on the bottle doesn't mean it is not heated. Ayurveda says you should never heat honey to a temperature higher than you could drink it as it will cause skin problems (Pitta aggravation) It essentially becomes a bit toxic. 
Honey is considered as an Anupan in Ayurveda, which means it is considered one of a group of foods that act as a carryer of nutrients to the cells. In the case of honey it carries nutrients to the brain.

Butter is also an Anupan which carries nutrients to the muscles.. In Ayurveda they do not say raw butter but ghee which is clarified butter. Not sure about raw butter but I like it and believe in my tiny little mind that it is superior. I will check with the Vaidya on that one all the same.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Paleo Donk on March 09, 2010, 04:57:12 am
Unless the honey states on the jar it was cold packed it was most likley heated via centrifuge to make it runny enough to bottle. http://honeypacifica.com/coldpacked.htm is a great source for cold packed honey, i really recommend the wild flower variety

Anybody ordered from here?

They look pretty legit.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: cliff on March 09, 2010, 11:31:55 pm
Anybody ordered from here?

They look pretty legit.

I purchase it from my local farmers market, they have some of the best honey i have ever had.  I've tried pretty much all the cold pack flavors and you can't go wrong with any of them, the avocado honey has a very unique taste somewhat akin to spaghettio sauce but a little sweeter.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 10, 2010, 07:15:16 am
Shot out to Tyler. He said that the raw honeycomb that is not clear, but colored and has bits of pollen and stuff in it, is the best and he was right. Best tasting honey I've ever had. Damned expensive, but worth it for an occasional treat. Still seems to act like sugar on me, but seemed slightly less so than regular raw honey and much less so than heated honey. Hard to tell based on the small amounts I ate at one time and small overall quantity, though. I fouled up my blood sugar test, so I'll have to get more test sticks and try that again some day.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Roselene on March 10, 2010, 02:29:29 pm
Anybody ordered from here?

They look pretty legit.

I bought a gallon of their cold hand packed Brazilian pepper tree honey.  It was good and it lasted me over six months.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Paleo Donk on March 10, 2010, 09:01:54 pm
Shot out to Tyler. He said that the raw honeycomb that is not clear, but colored and has bits of pollen and stuff in it, is the best and he was right. Best tasting honey I've ever had. Damned expensive, but worth it for an occasional treat. Still seems to act like sugar on me, but seemed slightly less so than regular raw honey and much less so than heated honey. Hard to tell based on the small amounts I ate at one time and small overall quantity, though. I fouled up my blood sugar test, so I'll have to get more test sticks and try that again some day.

So did you get the raw cold-packed honey from the link above? Also, the honey seems relatively cheap if you look at it as a per calorie cost. 6lbs for $26 plus shipping. So around 5-6 dollars a pound. One pound will give you (at 3 calories a gram) 1350 calories so a good 200 calories for every dollar, so not bad. Actually, the fact that its so cheap makes me think it isn't as good as it I would think.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on March 10, 2010, 10:02:20 pm
For other members interested in raw honeycomb, I would suggest going after the dark-coloured heather honeycomb. In the UK, at least, it`s considered the best tasting honeycomb of all. I`ve been told by some RPDers that there really is genuinely raw honey found within jars but every single attempt I had in the past with numerous brands of  jarred so-called "raw" honey turned out to be a big mistake on my part, heathwise, so I remain sceptical of most claims of rawness for liquid honey.  Of course, it may simply be that I don`t get such a massive immediate  blood-sugar hike and other symptoms  from raw honeycomb, because of the massive amounts of wax in it.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: cliff on March 10, 2010, 11:12:50 pm
the fact that its so cheap makes me think it isn't as good as it I would think.

I've tried a lot of store bought honey and different local honeys when i was in hawaii,  honey pacifica has the best stuff I've tried so far and makes me feel the best.  Looking back at the tone of my post it would seem like i work for these guys but i just happen to be a loyal follower of there great products :)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Roselene on March 11, 2010, 12:30:19 am
I`ve been told by some RPDers that there really is genuinely raw honey found within jars but every single attempt I had in the past with numerous brands of  jarred so-called "raw" honey turned out to be a big mistake on my part, heathwise, so I remain sceptical of most claims of rawness for liquid honey.

Try desert honey.  The moisture content is so low, that within a day or two it becomes too solid.  It's not spoonable or pourable at all. 

Quote
Of course, it may simply be that I don`t get such a massive immediate  blood-sugar hike and other symptoms  from raw honeycomb, because of the massive amounts of wax in it.

Are you eating the honey alone these times or with fruit, vegetables or meat?  As far as wax, I eat honey with fat.  It's more like eating fat with honey, as for the ratios.  The hikes, eaten alone, would likely happen to almost anyone. 
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on March 11, 2010, 01:19:53 am
 I don`t like the taste at all when mixing honey with other foods, especially meats, so prefer to just eat it alone.

Interesting info re desert honey. Thanks
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on March 11, 2010, 04:10:39 am
I don`t like the taste at all when mixing honey with other foods, especially meats, so prefer to just eat it alone.
So it's obvious where that spike of blood sugar comes from.
It's of paramount importance to mix the honey with fat - I mix it with mutton/ lamb suet and it's a very toothsome combination.
Honeycomb already contains fat (wax)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on March 11, 2010, 05:03:11 am
So it's obvious where that spike of blood sugar comes from.
It's of paramount importance to mix the honey with fat - I mix it with mutton/ lamb suet and it's a very toothsome combination.
Honeycomb already contains fat (wax)
  Seems after a check it is partially made of fat. Still I do better eating the honeycomb plus the wax than mixing it with suet and other kinds of raw fats.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 12, 2010, 09:25:55 am
So did you get the raw cold-packed honey from the link above?
No. Here are the differences in appearance between Honey Pacifica, standard honeycomb and truly raw honeycomb below:

Honey Pacifica
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:4UlzDmmPzD829M:http://honeypacifica.com/Finished%2520Photos/coldpcompsm.jpg)

This is how standard honeycomb I find in the stores
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:N-l5EmZAaMRBfM:http://www.savannahbee.com/images/uploads/22_154_thumb.gif)

This is the closest thing I could find online to the darker honeycomb that Tyler gets in the
UK at the time I was looking: (http://homegrown-colorado.com/wp-content/uploads/rabbit_mountain.jpg)(http://homegrown-colorado.com)

I found this image today of unprocessed raw honey with plenty of natural material on top: (http://www.domoresuckless.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/p-640-480-57511621-fb59-491b-948f-9d0b883595f0.jpeg)

and this slightly darker-looking honeycomb:
(http://giftsfromcolorado.us/wp-content/uploads/comb-150x150.jpg)

Eating fat with honey actually does make some sense, because traditionally fatty grubcomb is eaten with honeycomb and some cultures also mix fats with fruits (such as the Yupik and Lakota mixing fat with berries), and there is the afore-implied moderating effect of certain animal fats on insulin spikes (“These data support the hypothesis that n-3 fatty acids protect from high-fat diet-induced hepatic insulin resistance,” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17251275).
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: KD on March 12, 2010, 09:43:01 am


I found this image today of unprocessed raw honey with plenty of natural material on top: http://www.domoresuckless.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/p-640-480-57511621-fb59-491b-948f-9d0b883595f0.jpeg




This is the "Really Raw" honey that has been disputed on this site before. My 2 cents is I find it to be fairly viable, but its a little sweet.

Recently I purchased a brand called Honey Gardens:Apitherapy which is a local New England product. Its a wildflower honey. I know "raw" can be as unregulated and meaningless as "natural" unfortunately, but this specificially says this product "has never been heated or filtered, and thus retains the beneficial traces of pollen, propolis and beeswax...enzymes..."

from memory it seems pretty much like the Really Raw brand, but it still seems to create some mild symptoms (tiredness) so I gather it still isn't good for my suspected candida issues, if that is helpful to anyone thinking of adding honey. I was just adding it as a small amount/enzyme, and not as a significant carb source.

on another note, it says honey is liquid and then crystallizes, so I am not as doubtful that all jarred honeys must be heated.



Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 12, 2010, 10:02:44 am
This is the "Really Raw" honey that has been disputed on this site before. My 2 cents is I find it to be fairly viable, but its a little sweet.

Recently I purchased a brand called Honey Gardens:Apitherapy which is a local New England product.
Yes, that's the brand I've bought several times from the local apiary south of where I live in Vermont. The Honey Pacifica looks very similar.

Quote
Its a wildflower honey.
Yes, they have these specific varieties:

Northern wildflower - summer
Northern Goldenrod - fall
Orange Blossom Honey
Blueberry honey

Quote
I know "raw" can be as unregulated and meaningless as "natural" unfortunately, but this specificially says this product "has never been heated or filtered, and thus retains the beneficial traces of pollen, propolis and beeswax...enzymes..."
Yes, but the Colorado raw honeycomb that is supposedly made by the bees right in the can is definitely different and tastier, though the Honey Gardens honey is very tasty too and cheaper.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Paleo Donk on May 03, 2010, 06:22:14 pm
Not sure if they just added this on their website but honey pacifica is heated up to 100 degrees F, so not raw.

http://honeypacifica.com/regular.htm

Quote
Honey Pacifica is proud to produce various raw honey varieties ourself, ensuring a gourmet level of quality and integrity. As always our honey is raw and unfiltered. We drive the bees to various locations throughout California directly to the floral sources. The flavors of each raw honey depend on what flowers are blooming with nectar at the time the bees are there. In order to maintain the highest level of taste and nutrition in our raw unfiltered honey, we never heat our honey to more than 100°; just enough to get it into the jar. Beware of USDA “Grade A labels”. It simply means the honey has been heated and filtered enough to be considered processed. Larger companies have been known to heat their honey up to 140° while filtering it thoroughly. While this qualifies them for “Grade A” labels, it also hurts the quality of their honey. Label or not, our raw unfiltered honey is the best.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: mors01 on May 03, 2010, 07:11:21 pm
This is not new. They sell both heated and unheated honey. They call the unheated honey "cold packed"

http://honeypacifica.com/coldpacked.htm

Not sure if they just added this on their website but honey pacifica is heated up to 100 degrees F, so not raw.

http://honeypacifica.com/regular.htm

Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Paleo Donk on May 04, 2010, 04:13:47 am
Ah, yes thanks for pointing out my mistake. I'm still curious as to why their honey seems so cheap.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on May 04, 2010, 05:17:49 pm
    It is from boxes, not from trees.

    (http://img.youtube.com/vi/KkOvRsLSf6E/0.jpg)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: cliff on May 21, 2010, 12:23:47 am
Not sure if they just added this on their website but honey pacifica is heated up to 100 degrees F, so not raw.


How is under 100 degrees not raw?  From my research there honey is as raw as it gets unless you have your own hive or know some one with a hive

Neglected to read the post above, my brother who has talked to these guys extensively assured me the cold packed honey is never heated.

The honeys cheap because these guys are legit and aren't interested in ripping people off.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: kurite on May 21, 2010, 06:01:02 am
Anyone know if this honey is legitimately raw?
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/Y-S-Organic-Bee-Farm/_/n-2pz?SourceCode=INTL095&cm_mmc_o=7BBTkw%20-pcByplCjCmPsa%20WzfbBEzk%20PyzEpCjCQm%20RyTzEbg%20Pww%20dzyFCjCYl%20ByTzEbg%20_ww%20uzyFl&gclid=CLvnl4jb4aECFQ0eDQodBXQBeQ
Its the brand I buy and its very thick like peanut butter.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 21, 2010, 11:11:21 am
Heated to 100 degrees would presumably be heated more than honey that's not heated at all (which is called cold-packed or hand-packed).

My brother in law gave me a taste of some raw Vermont honey that tastes better than the Honey Gardens Apitherapy brand -- Champlain Valley Apiaries. It comes from bees that gather mainly from legumes. It's centrifuge-extracted (http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/slideshow.htm) instead of hand-packed, however, but I seem to handle it a little better than even the Honey Gardens, which I can handle better than heated honey. It's interesting that in the video it already looks opaque as it gets poured into the jars. I thought that only occurred after crystallization, but I guess not.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: reyyzl on May 21, 2010, 06:36:20 pm
From the first chapter, free online of we want to live -

Quote
  I think of the many internal and external wounds I've seen heal rapidly with application and large consumption of unheated honeys. And how miraculously unheated honeys stimulate digestion. "Okay. honeys labeled 'Unheated' can't be heated over beehive temperature on a hot day - that's 92.8 Fahrenheit. On hot days. bees fan the honey with their wings to keep the honey temperature below 92.8 F. In the body. 80-90% of unheated honey turns into enzymes for digestion. assimilation and utilization. Whereas, honeys that are labeled 'Raw' or 'Uncooked' can be heated to 160 which they do to thin the honey for quicker filtering and bottling for more profits. 'Raw' or 'Uncooked' honeys mainly turn into radical blood sugar. 'Unheated' is the key word with honey. You can eat as much unheated honey as you want, as long as you have a taste for it.

Even the centrifuge process can raise the temperature of some of the honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 23, 2010, 05:38:35 am
Even the centrifuge process can raise the temperature of some of the honey.
[/quote]
Yes, I know. That's why I said "however." Sorry I wasn't more clear.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: wildbee on August 10, 2010, 12:15:14 pm
My headaches on this subject come from these requirements:

Raw, which is a description that I want to mean not heated above 30/35 C max.
Organic, relating to the bees forage and also any disease treatments used.
No sugar feeding, I just don't trust that this will not end up in the honey I eat and I also think it's unethical.
Unfiltered, pollen, bee parts and wax left in.

This reduces the profitability of the honey because a lot of organic land is needed, organic disease treatment is probably more expensive, less available or effective. Less honey per hive can be harvested because they will need to eat it themselves rather than sugar. The honey is less saleable because of it's appearance (floating bits) and varied consistency.

Many bee keepers have explained that they can't sell me 'raw' honey because it will 'set like a rock' and they 'only warm it to get it into the jar'. I finally managed to get a bucket of raw honey after I worked voluntarily for a bee keeper during an extracting session and took it away before he could filter it, even then he keeps offering to warm it back up again for me to make it runny and it fails on the other points. I have been stirring it gently every week or so for 3 months and it is still malleable, I understand you couldn't do that if it was jarred in a supermarket and the mainstream honey buyers obviously don't care enough about these things to pay for the extra work involved.

I don't see how my ideal bee keeping could be done on a competitively commercial basis because the niche market is so small, but surely there is enough demand to make it worth one bee keepers while!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on August 10, 2010, 05:12:30 pm
    I heard some wade in a room of it, and pack it with their hands rather than pour.  How long you been bee keeping?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: wildbee on August 10, 2010, 11:44:58 pm
I don't call myself a bee keeper yet, I've been tagging along since April and watching what they do.

The wading and hand packing sounds like a very messy job
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on August 12, 2010, 11:40:07 am
    I've never seen it with my own eyes, so I can't really tell you anything more.  This beekeeper told me he has to do it that way to keep it completely unheated and does do it that way.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: wildbee on August 13, 2010, 08:07:37 am
That's really good that he cares about it enough to make that effort, I've found some genuine raw Hawaiian honey but it's too expensive for me considering the amount I want to eat.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on August 13, 2010, 08:31:17 am
We buy it in bulk in a large container from local producers. Well actually we buy it from the collectors who get it from the producers of the final product... :D However.. runs 3 Can. dollars a pound. You do have to ask them if they heat it and verify their version of heated because apparently smoke and heat is used in the collection process and producers will reheat it later to allow it to pour more easily into containers. They think you mean pasteurized when you ask if it is heated.

We buy 30 pounds at a time at this point.

BTW Anyone see the "B Movie".  ;D
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: reyyzl on August 13, 2010, 02:35:24 pm
    You mean the one that came out in 2007?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on August 13, 2010, 09:16:38 pm
    You mean the one that came out in 2007?

Probably that's the one. That was hilarious!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: wildbee on August 14, 2010, 05:10:05 am
You do have to ask them if they heat it and verify their version of heated because apparently smoke and heat is used in the collection process and producers will reheat it later to allow it to pour more easily into containers.

oh yes, smoke - one more thing for the list :O
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: reyyzl on August 16, 2010, 12:36:50 am
Probably that's the one. That was hilarious!

    Bees are so fascinating, and that was funny, very entertaining.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: MaximilianKohler on August 26, 2010, 07:55:58 am
I'm going to post about this on the Primal Diet yahoo group and let you know. They seem more aware of this issue and know about all the genuine 100% raw brands - not surprising as they eat so much raw honey.
I posted there and no one's replied for weeks :/
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: sanborn on August 26, 2010, 10:58:42 am
Hello!  Really Raw Honey is on Aajonus' list of producers and distributors as a honey that he has checked out and is really raw.  There is lots of misrepresentation (call it lying?) by honey manufacturers.  Aajonus' whole list is available at http://www.wewant2live.com/site/811618/product/RPD-01
At the Hollywood (California) farmer's market, you can go to the Honey Pacifica display and ask for "Aajonus Grade" and they will give you really raw excellent honey.  We get a half gallon at a time. 
I don't know where you live, but Aajonus' list covers a lot of resources in the USA that will ship.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: djr_81 on August 26, 2010, 06:22:04 pm
Really Raw Honey is on Aajonus' list of producers and distributors as a honey that he has checked out and is really raw. 
Gauging by my experiences when I ate it I truly doubt this.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: chucky on September 20, 2010, 01:15:32 am
I have been experimenting with raw honey this weekend and have had both bad and great results with it. If taken without water it gives me energy but when taken with water or close to drinking water I will get bad case of fatigue.

Also, is there a way to combat possible fructose intolerance. Thing is that when a fruit has higher fructose content to glycose it makes me act weird.. kind of childish.. I think it helps some when I take it with food but when I take it with meat or fat, I gain weight instantly..
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: sanborn on September 21, 2010, 02:06:51 pm
Hello!  I know Really Raw Honey actually is all that they say it is - as this has been checked out by Aajonus.  Personally I love the taste although only get this about once a year because I have so many wonderful varieties available where I live (in southern California) from Honey Pacifica.
The other brand is not included in Aajonus' list of verified producers... as can be obtained on his site.  If you want to verify this yourself, call the company.  The key question is "to what degree temperature is your honey heated?"  Another question is "how much is it smoked?".
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: djr_81 on September 21, 2010, 08:02:47 pm
Hello!  I know Really Raw Honey actually is all that they say it is - as this has been checked out by Aajonus.  Personally I love the taste although only get this about once a year because I have so many wonderful varieties available where I live (in southern California) from Honey Pacifica.
The other brand is not included in Aajonus' list of verified producers... as can be obtained on his site.  If you want to verify this yourself, call the company.  The key question is "to what degree temperature is your honey heated?"  Another question is "how much is it smoked?".
I know it's been touted as raw. My body's reactions to it tell me otherwise. It is possible that it's raw and I have issues with something else in it but I'm doubtful of this. Of course I'm always doubtful of manufacturer's claims until my experiences corroborate their claims. :)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: reyyzl on September 22, 2010, 03:09:01 am
I know it's been touted as raw. My body's reactions to it tell me otherwise. It is possible that it's raw and I have issues with something else in it but I'm doubtful of this. Of course I'm always doubtful of manufacturer's claims until my experiences corroborate their claims. :)

   I love Really Raw Honey, but I have an issue with it.  Sometimes the cappings on RRH are thick and dark.  Sometimes they're thin and light.  Sometimes the honey itself comes to me crystalized, most of the time not.  I would like to know if it's just as raw in all these forms.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: chucky on September 22, 2010, 03:14:54 am
   I love Really Raw Honey, but I have an issue with it.  Sometimes the cappings on RRH are thick and dark.  Sometimes they're thin and light.  Sometimes the honey itself is crystalized, most of the time not.  I would like to know if it's just as raw in all these forms.

Raw honey should be crystallizing faster than heated honey.

I experimented with just raw honey and some meat/fat at weekend I have tried to eat larger amounts of meats with few tsp of honey. I get extremely bloated after eating larger amounts of raw meat with raw honey.. It feels like my whole colon is full of something. I wonder if I am reacting to it or is there any kind of healing explanation to it ? I don't have any other symptoms associated with candida expect that bloating issue. Actually I have noticed decrease of my thrush on tongue.. I hope it's healing my gut...  -\
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: reyyzl on September 22, 2010, 03:29:54 am
Raw honey should be crystallizing faster than heated honey.

I get extremely bloated after eating larger amounts of raw meat with raw honey.. It feels like my whole colon is full of something.

  I've had it delivered by mail from them, and I've gotten it in different stores and states.  Some it always comes crystalized, some never. Maybe some keep it cooler? Maybe certain batches are delivered to certain stores? They all have air conditioning, so I don't think that's a factor.  It may be the shipping method or storage room of the store.

  Aajonus says honey with meat strengthens the heart. Others say honey grows good bacteria for man.  Honey alone is said to heal stomach and intestines.  I believe the combination is good for the heart. Perhaps the combination is bad for the intestines or like you said performing some healing.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: chucky on September 22, 2010, 03:37:43 am
 I've had it delivered by mail from them, and I've gotten it in different stores and states.  Some it always comes crystalized, some never. Maybe some keep it cooler? Maybe certain batches are delivered to certain stores? They all have air conditioning, so I don't think that's a factor.  It may be the shipping method or storage room of the store.

  Aajonus says honey with meat strengthens the heart. Others say honey grows good bacteria for man.  Honey alone is said to heal stomach and intestines.  I believe the combination is good for the heart. Perhaps the combination is bad for the intestines or like you said performing some healing.

Thanks, I didn't know about the combination being helpful for the heart. I'm going to give it another week and see what will happen.

Though I just found this:

 
Quote
Fructose adversely affects your body in a number of ways, but one of the mechanisms that causes significant damage is glycation, a process by which the sugar bonds with proteins and forms so-called advanced glycation end products, or AGEs.
I have absolutely no idea how much of this is true.

Is this honey that you are ordering collected from the same flowers and plants ? Different flowers make the honey crystallize faster/slower
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: reyyzl on September 22, 2010, 03:40:40 am
Thanks, I didn't know about the combination being helpful for the heart. I'm going to give it another week and see what will happen.

Is this honey that you are ordering collected from the same flowers and plants ? Different flowers make the honey crystallize faster/slower

  You're welcome.  Good luck :-)

  Yes, it's from different times of year and different farms.  Thank you.  It might be the flowers.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 05, 2010, 09:16:39 am
Has anyone tried this cold-packed raw honey? It's cheaper than Really Raw honey.

http://www.vitaglo.com/swwiofearawh.htmll
(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/vitaglo_2126_73783423)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: michaelwh on November 06, 2010, 10:05:38 am
Has anyone tried this cold-packed raw honey? It's cheaper than Really Raw honey.

http://www.vitaglo.com/swwiofearawh.htmll

I haven't tried it, but I've seen it on Aajonus' list of producers.

I find the price on that VitaGlo website suspiciously low. The website of the producer is:

http://www.earlvillefarms.com/

A 5-pound jar costs $70, and if you buy 6 jars, the cost is $53 per 5 pounds.

VitaGlo sells a 5-pound jar for $35. How can they do this without losing money?

If you're looking for a good price on unheated honey, it's hard to beat Honey Pacifica.

I don't understand why some unheated honeys (such as S.W. of Earlville, or Volcano Island Honey) are so expensive, while others (such as Honey Pacifica) are so cheap.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 06, 2010, 10:25:05 am
Yes, it's all rather puzzling. It's also puzzling that the local centrifuged field legume (like alfalfa, as I recall) honey I buy is already crystallized before it's even bottled, whereas some of the cold packed honeys appear to be liquid in the images on the Internet. Apparently different flowers produce honeys that have different tendencies to crystallize?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: yuli on November 06, 2010, 10:56:21 am
Yes, it's all rather puzzling. It's also puzzling that the local centrifuged field legume (like alfalfa, as I recall) honey I buy is already crystallized before it's even bottled, whereas some of the cold packed honeys appear to be liquid in the images on the Internet. Apparently different flowers produce honeys that have different tendencies to crystallize?

Raw liquid honey will eventually crystalize...but it takes a while.
The difference is:
Liquid honey has been filtered to remove fine particles, pollen grains, and air bubbles...
Creamed honey has granulated honey blended with liquid honey.

If you scroll down this article its talks about the different types... http://hubpages.com/hub/Honey-A-Primer
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on November 06, 2010, 02:52:01 pm
Raw liquid honey will eventually crystalize...but it takes a while.
That's true.
The higher the content of the fructose the longer the crystalization.
Acacia honey (which has got the highest fructose content in comparison with the other honeys) starts to crystalize after half of the year.
Those that has got less of the fructose can crystalize after couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 08, 2010, 03:03:18 am
Quote
"The higher the content of the fructose the longer the crystalization."
Thanks for that explanation, [Hannibal].

Champlain Valley clover and alfalfa "naturally crystallized raw" honey is thick, opaque and crystallized-looking even before it's centrifuged (though this image isn't a great one):
(http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/slides/011.jpg)

This image, after it's centrifuged, more clearly shows its thick, crystallized look:
(http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/slides/016.jpg)

It's hard to tell, but it even looks crystallized when it's still in the combs:
(http://www.champlainvalleyhoney.com/slides/008.jpg)

Whereas this cold packed sage honey still looks thin and liquidy after being bottled and put up for sale:
(http://honeypacifica.com/images/sagehoneycoldpacked24oz.jpg)

In the stores I've noticed that Champlain Valley honey is never liquidy, whereas other honeys take time to get as thick and crystallized. On the other hand, the Champlain Valley honey doesn't turn real hard as fast as other raw honeys.

Does this mean that clover and alfalfa honey is lower in fructose than other honeys like sage?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: miles on November 08, 2010, 03:49:14 am
Thanks for that explanation, Miles.

No problem Phil, just glad to see Hannibal is relaying my messages as ordered. Been having problems with him of late, having his own ideas and such, but those Hindu squats I've been getting him to do have taught him some respect it would seem.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 08, 2010, 04:58:32 am
Oops, sorry, I meant Hannibal.   :(

Interestingly, Really Raw cold packed Honey is also much cheaper than Earlville Farms' price on their own site:

5LJR    5 lb. Plastic Plastic Jar RRH    $42.50    OUT OF STOCK
http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=RRH
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: djr_81 on November 08, 2010, 06:08:53 am
No problem Phil, just glad to see Hannibal is relaying my messages as ordered. Been having problems with him of late, having his own ideas and such, but those Hindu squats I've been getting him to do have taught him some respect it would seem.
;D
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on November 08, 2010, 06:14:02 am
So people are stating that it is physically possible to put raw honey into jars without heating it in any way, and still making it commercially viable re profit?!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 08, 2010, 09:11:47 am
Yeah, Aajonus has claimed that for years, for example. You buy honeycomb and are suspicious of any jarred honey, right? Do you have evidence that Aajonus and cold-packed raw honey sellers are wrong and that honey can only be jarred and sold profitably if heated?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on November 08, 2010, 09:38:58 am
Only my own and a few others' experiences. I have yet to come across 1 jarred, so-called raw honey which did not affect me far worse than raw honeycomb.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: miles on November 08, 2010, 12:01:29 pm
But wouldn't apple juice affect you differently to apples?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 09, 2010, 08:22:16 pm
I checked with Earlville Farms and they say the Vitaglo price is legit. Vitaglo apparently makes their money on high volumes with "razor thin margins." Unfortunately the little guys can't compete with the big guys' prices.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on November 12, 2010, 06:11:57 am
Just came across this video, he talks about the importance of getting organic honey to avoid toxins and GMO's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rddFt_i6pk

Anyone know anything more about this? I am not sure how a bee could be confined to only organic flowers, etc.

I get cold packed honey from honey pacifica and they are not organic--but on the other hand it says "wild flower honey", so in that case would it matter if its from the wildflowers in the hills?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: yuli on November 12, 2010, 06:38:25 am
@ B.Money

Bees fly up to 1.5 miles/2.5 km away from the hive to get nectar.
So I am guessing if the flower fields are wild and organic within a 3 km radius of the hive you should be safe.

Wild flowers in a relatively remote area should be pretty organic...

----------

Yesterday I ate lots of buckwheat blossom honey, its one of the best man, it tasted insanely sweet but bitter (in good way).
Its the darkest honey I have ever seen...
I heard the darker honeys have more antioxidants then lighter ones.
Some wildflower honeys are pretty light but have great floral or citrus tastes.
But the buckwheat one tastes special from the others...I slept like a dead log from it too, good.
Man I can live on meat and honey, lol, but I am not going to.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on November 14, 2010, 08:31:46 am
I use desert wildflower and flagstaff wildflower honey. I don't trust the word "organic" as much as i trust my ability to ask questions. I found a place that provides WONDERFUL honey but not "organic". If you don't have the time to hunt for it, i would go with "organic" crystallized honey just to be safe. But they can still use chemicals, just different ones approved by the USDA(i think maybe FDA).
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: miles on November 14, 2010, 10:44:20 am
Yeah, 'organic' apples are usually still treated with pesticides...
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on November 14, 2010, 10:47:45 am
Really? I didn't know organic applies can still be sprayed. How do they get around that?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on November 14, 2010, 02:57:52 pm
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2205/img647411.jpg)
That's my truly raw honeycomb.
I got it with the frame, directly from a local traditional beekeeper.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: bharminder on November 14, 2010, 04:44:35 pm
That looks really tasty, and crunchy, and sweet.

I like buckwheat honey the best but I'Ve only tried buckwheat and wildflower. I like the buckwheat way better than the wildflower. Honey and meat do go together really well. Even milk and vegetable juices go well with them. and fruit
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Iguana on November 14, 2010, 04:59:25 pm
I friend beekeeper had left a 200 liters (yes, two hundreds!) drum of such honey in my basement! It was a little bit spoiled and not good for sale, but still fine and tasty for me. I kept a 10 liters pot when he finally took the drum away to give to his pigs... The honey has somewhat fermented, I like it so but i don't eat much of it - and very seldom. I think it 'll last for the whole rest of my live  :P
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw on November 14, 2010, 06:36:53 pm
I used to have natural wild honey all the time from my grandma's home. It's a huge home (Historic garden home) with tropical fruits garden, flower garden, huge pond... gorgeous! Bees are always naturally attracted by these natural beauties and flowers all year round. Still there are some bee hives around the house. Here is a photo where you can see even the bees are on it.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw on November 14, 2010, 06:41:15 pm
Sorry, i don't know the proper way to put photo on this topic
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Haai on November 14, 2010, 10:43:58 pm
Is it possible that honeycomb from abroad (eg from newzealand is a common one) has been treated with gamma radiation and if so is that a problem?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: miles on November 15, 2010, 01:31:21 am
Really? I didn't know organic applies can still be sprayed. How do they get around that?

They spray them with organic pesticides.

Sorry, i don't know the proper way to put photo on this topic

Click on 'additional options' outside the bottom-left corner of your text box, as you're typing your reply. Then next to 'attach', click 'choose file'.

I friend beekeeper had left a 200 liters (yes, two hundreds!) drum of such honey in my basement! It was a little bit spoiled and not good for sale, but still fine and tasty for me. I kept a 10 liters pot when he finally took the drum away to give to his pigs... The honey has somewhat fermented, I like it so but i don't eat much of it - and very seldom. I think it 'll last for the whole rest of my live  :P

WOW.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on November 15, 2010, 02:53:08 am
Man that honey comb looks sooooo goood. I used to love the cappings from "really raw honey" but I figure the source I have now is better quality.

It LOOKS like Honey Pacifica (cold/hand packed honey) uses some smoke to scatter/calm the bees and they use powdered sugar if there is a mite problem (got this off of a comment on youtube). Is this within reason, and still considered a good/safe source?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on November 15, 2010, 05:50:51 am
It LOOKS like Honey Pacifica (cold/hand packed honey) uses some smoke to scatter/calm the bees and they use powdered sugar if there is a mite problem (got this off of a comment on youtube).

    I think you're right, they use smoke, or did a couple of years back. They may have stopped using smoke now.  How does powdered sugar stop mites? Do you have a link to that video? Maybe I can ask the OP.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on November 15, 2010, 06:59:46 am
Yeah, here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkOvRsLSf6E

Look in the comments, it looks like the person who shot the video is the grandson of the founder according to the description.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 15, 2010, 09:09:43 am
I did a quick search and only found one mention of an unsmoked raw honey. Are there any others?

Pureliving Honey
unheated and non-smoked
http://onibasu.com/archives/km/4923.html

Does it make a difference whether it's smoked or not, given that hunter gatherers and traditional peoples like the Honeymen of Africa use smoke to calm stinging wild bees as they gather the honeycomb/grubcomb?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on November 15, 2010, 01:03:54 pm
Does it make a difference whether it's smoked or not, given that hunter gatherers and traditional peoples like the Honeymen of Africa use smoke to calm stinging wild bees as they gather the honeycomb/grubcomb?

I would guess it would be better without. Tiny amounts of tar should not be too hard on the body though..
Imagine that... smoking a blunt, blowing it at the bees getting them high, and eating their honey while they are stoned
You better hope those bees are not scrappy stoners. LOL
Do you know what herb they used to smoke the bees with? a link would be fantastic
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on November 16, 2010, 12:47:03 am
    If I could, would go for the no smoke, especially if detoxing from smoke and stuff.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on January 01, 2011, 03:04:29 am
It seems like honey pacifica's cold packed honey gives me issues (looser stools) while really raw honey doesn't at least thats how I remember it. Could this be possible, or am I just nuts? If anything I would think the really raw honey is more processed since it seems to be a bigger company.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 01, 2011, 03:14:31 am
Loose poopies could mean detox. I always feel better after mud slides.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on January 01, 2011, 06:18:02 am
lol mud slides.. I like it. Perhaps thats whats going on, I just wonder why the other honey does not cause me issues
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 01, 2011, 07:39:20 am
Each Honey is different, maybe the other "non slickifying" honey is not as potent. Or is just potent in an other aspect.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on January 01, 2011, 10:02:29 am
how long would you say you would use something that gives you issues like that, until you rule it out as something that is just problematic?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 01, 2011, 11:15:32 am
Depends on the situation...
I would take that honey for two weeks to a month, then switch to the other for two weeks, then back
Notice how you feel throughout.
Don't torture yourself,  ;) Experimenting is good, and pain is a part of detoxing, but it should be enjoyable for the most part.
If it is a genuine detox you should feel better after intense expelling of toxic matter.

How long have you been eating raw animal foods?

I have not heard of anyone having loose stool due to honey, but it is possible.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on January 01, 2011, 12:12:02 pm
Well its not even really intense, its just softer and its almost like maybe some is not completely digested---in other words it turns closer to honey consistency lol. Nothing bad though and it does not make me feel bad at all, just softer stools.

Been raw for 6-8 months now. Liver seems to be poorly digested also. I have never heard of this either...weird.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 01, 2011, 02:02:07 pm
In that case, if you enjoy that variety of honey, I would keep taking it.
Maybe just avoid eating it with meat. I only eat honey with dairy.
Flesh seems to digest best alone for me.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: bharminder on January 01, 2011, 05:01:55 pm
I eat stakich honey from stakich.com

it's local to me so i buy it in person, the buckwheat antioxidant honey is fantastic
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 02, 2011, 05:35:22 am
Buckwheat honey is delicious.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 02, 2011, 05:56:45 am
In that case, if you enjoy that variety of honey, I would keep taking it.
Maybe just avoid eating it with meat. I only eat honey with dairy.
Flesh seems to digest best alone for me.
That's interesting. I digest meat fine when I eat honey with it. Aajonus V. even claimed that "Unheated honey is a wonderful sweet food that helps digest all types of meat." (The Recipe for Living Without Disease, 2nd edition, p. 31)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 02, 2011, 06:10:15 am
Honey with meat does not cause any problems with me.
I just feel that digestion is optimal when I eat honey before and after, instead of during.
Also, the honey is intensely sweet and a totally different taste, I like to savor each alone.
Unless of course I am introducing a newcomer, then I occasionally make honey mixed into sliced up steak... delicious.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 02, 2011, 10:29:16 am
Today I upped my honey consumption to see what would happen.. still not mixing
I used the WFoods wildflower honey.
Totally loose mud movements, feel good though.
It was like a projectile, Kinda pushed me off the seat LOL ;D

Maybe the digestion is better PP!

It sounds kind of contradictory due to the high sugar content,
but if AVs claims are true that fresh honey is 90% enzymes then I guess that makes sense
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: B.Money on January 02, 2011, 10:57:12 am
LOL keep us updated to see if it slows down, or what happens.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 02, 2011, 11:20:23 am
but if AVs claims are true that fresh honey is 90% enzymes then I guess that makes sense

Others believe the claim, but I doubt it. Raw honey spikes my blood glucose almost as much as heated honey. It is interesting that the spike is less, though.

Has he ever revealed the name of the "insulin-like substance" that is supposed to turn the sugar in raw honey into enzymes?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: CHK91 on January 02, 2011, 11:55:32 am
Are the benefits of raw honey worth it for those that become hypoglycemic with sugar? ???
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on January 02, 2011, 01:19:01 pm
Are the benefits of raw honey worth it for those that become hypoglycemic with sugar? ???

A careful and mindful approach is always best, but IMO, it is by far a dominant choice as far as condensed sugar is concerned.

Others believe the claim, but I doubt it. Raw honey spikes my blood glucose almost as much as heated honey. It is interesting that the spike is less, though.
Has he ever revealed the name of the "insulin-like substance" that is supposed to turn the sugar in raw honey into enzymes?

Propolis is an insulin like substance i think. My understanding of honey goes like this...

Nectar is produced in the flower
The bees hold the nectar in their mouth, digesting the sugar with their own enzymes.
They either regurgitate it or excrete it via another pathway.
Then we take that and eat it, with a smile this big >  ;D
It is simply predigested sugar from flowers.

But there is something missing... if the cooked product is just sugar then how can the sugar be broken down in the raw state?
maybe the enzymes are just added my the bees to preserve it...
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Nation on January 02, 2011, 02:17:53 pm
I'm a ZC'er and tried raw honey in the last 2 days, 1 lb a day.. my candida symptoms flared up  :'(
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on January 02, 2011, 05:37:24 pm
When I first went in for RVAF diets, I tried mixing raw meats with raw honeycomb, and it didn't work re digestion. I suppose the reason was that my digestive system was pretty much destroyed at the time.

I also found the combined taste of honeycomb and meat to be absolutely foul.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Rawdietforhealth on January 02, 2011, 05:57:36 pm
I have been fighting a bit of a cold/flu for the past two weeks with a cough that would not go away. It is getting better now and I have also used honey and raw honey.  The brand I was able to get was "Honey Gardens - Apitherapy Raw Honey." It is the closest I was able to find to a raw honeycomb. Seems to help.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: bharminder on January 02, 2011, 08:40:56 pm
For those who want to eat unheated honey but get teeth problems I recommend brushing your teeth immediately after eating the honey. Since it is very sticky, it can wreck your teeth unless you clean them.

I make it a point before I choose to eat any honey that I will brush my teeth immediately after. If I'm not willing to brush afterward, I won't eat it.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 02, 2011, 10:30:26 pm
I have been fighting a bit of a cold/flu for the past two weeks with a cough that would not go away. It is getting better now and I have also used honey and raw honey.  The brand I was able to get was "Honey Gardens - Apitherapy Raw Honey." It is the closest I was able to find to a raw honeycomb. Seems to help.
That's a Vermont, USA honey. Do you get that in the Philippines or are you in the USA?

I found what the substance is that has insulin-like activity. It's royal jelly. One of the studies didn't have a positive result, but all the most recent ones did, including a clinical trial in humans.

Royal jelly reduces the serum glucose levels in healthy subjects
Münstedt K, Bargello M, Hauenschild A.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Justus-Liebig University Hospital Giessen and Marburg, Giessen, Germany. karsten.muenstedt@gyn.med.uni-giessen.de
J Med Food. 2009 Oct;12(5):1170-2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19857086

Earlier biological investigations have shown that royal jelly has insulin-like activity. However, there have so far been no clinical trials to support these findings. The objective of the present study was to study the effect of royal jelly ingestion on the glucose metabolism of healthy humans. Twenty volunteers underwent the standardized oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) and afterwards a second OGTT after ingestion of 20 g of royal jelly. Serum glucose levels after 2 hours and the area under the curve for glucose were significantly lower (P = .041) after royal jelly administration. Substances originating from the pharyngeal glands of the honey bee with insulin-like activity are likely to have caused this effect and may thus be, at least partially, responsible for the lowering impact of honey on blood glucose levels. The identification of the substances that seem to act even after passage through the human stomach could lead to the development of new concepts in diabetology.


Biol Pharm Bull. 2008 Nov;31(11):2103-7.
Royal jelly ameliorates insulin resistance in fructose-drinking rats.
Zamami Y, Takatori S, Goda M, Koyama T, Iwatani Y, Jin X, Takai-Doi S, Kawasaki H.
Department of Clinical Pharmaceutical Science, Graduate School of Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Okayama University, Okayama, Japan.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981581

Abstract
Royal jelly (RJ) is known to contain excellent nutrition and a variety of biological activities. The present study was designed to investigate the effects of RJ on insulin resistance (hyperinsulinemia) in fructose-drinking rats (FDR; insulin resistance animal model). Male Wistar rats (6 weeks old) received 15% fructose solution in drinking water for 8 weeks. FDR showed significant increases in plasma levels of insulin and triglyceride, Homeostasis Model Assessment ratio (HOMA-R, an index of insulin resistance), and systolic blood pressure, but not blood glucose levels, when compared with control rats. RJ (100, 300 mg/kg, p.o.) treatment for 8 weeks significantly decreased the plasma levels of insulin and triglyceride, HOMA-R, without affecting blood glucose or total cholesterol levels and tended to lower systolic blood pressure. In isolated and perfused mesenteric vascular beds of FDR, RJ treatment resulted in a significant reduction in sympathetic nerve-mediated vasoconstrictor response to periarterial nerve stimulation (PNS) and tended to increase the calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) nerve-mediated vasodilator response to PNS, compared with those in untreated FDR. However, RJ treatment did not significantly affect norepinephrine-induced vasoconstriction or CGRP-induced vasodilation. These results suggest that RJ could be an effective functional food to prevent insulin resistance associated with the development of hypertension.

PMID: 18981581 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free Article


Yakugaku Zasshi. 2007 Nov;127(11):1877-82.
[Effect of long-term treatment with royal jelly on insulin resistance in Otsuka Long-Evans Tokushima Fatty (OLETF) rats].
[Article in Japanese]
Nomura M, Maruo N, Zamami Y, Takatori S, Doi S, Kawasaki H.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17978564

Department of Clinical Pharmaceutical Science, Graduate School of Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Okayama University, Tsushima-naka, Okayama City, Japan.
Abstract
Royal jelly (RJ) is known to have abundant nutritional properties and a variety of biological activities. To investigate the effects of RJ on insulin resistance, 10-week-old Otsuka Long-Evans Tokushima Fatty (OLETF) rats, a type 2 diabetic model, were treated for 4 weeks with RJ (10, 30, and 300 mg/kg, p.o.). RJ treatment tended to decrease systolic blood pressure and significantly decreased serum levels of insulin and the Homeostasis Model Assessment ratio, an index of insulin resistance. In isolated and perfused mesenteric vascular beds of OLETF rats, RJ treatment resulted in significant reduction of the sympathetic nerve-mediated vasoconstrictor response to periarterial nerve stimulation (PNS) and potentiation of the calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) nerve-mediated vasodilator response to PNS, compared with that in untreated OLETF rats. However, RJ treatment did not significantly affect norepinephrine-induced vasoconstriction and CGRP-induced vasodilation. These results suggest that RJ could be an effective and functional food to prevent the development of insulin resistance.


Augmentation of wound healing by royal jelly (RJ) in streptozotocin-diabetic rats.
Jpn J Pharmacol. 1990 Jul;53(3):331-7.
Department of Pharmacology, Nihon University School of Dentistry, Matsudo, Japan.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2391765?dopt=Abstract

Chronically diabetic rats prepared by a single i.v. injection of streptozotocin were used to study whether royal jelly (RJ) possesses a hypoglycemic reaction and whether it can augment wound healing. Oral RJ administration of 10, 100 and 1000 mg/kg/day did not show any insulin-like activity (the hypoglycemic reaction). RJ, however, showed some anti-inflammatory activity by decreasing exudation and collagen formation in granulation tissue formation in the cotton pellet method. RJ also shortened the healing period of desquamated skin lesions. Thus, RJ possesses an anti-inflammatory action and is able to augment wound healing, but does not have an insulin-like action in streptozotocin-diabetic rats.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 02, 2011, 10:34:47 pm
For those who want to eat unheated honey but get teeth problems I recommend brushing your teeth immediately after eating the honey. Since it is very sticky, it can wreck your teeth unless you clean them.

I make it a point before I choose to eat any honey that I will brush my teeth immediately after. If I'm not willing to brush afterward, I won't eat it.

What is your source of information, bharminder? Raw Honey is an excellent choice for fighting cavities and all other dental setbacks.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 02, 2011, 10:41:31 pm
My experience matches bharminder's. Raw honey gives me negative dental effects instead of positive. I don't know if having plenty of royal jelly in the honey would offset the negative dental effects of raw honey as AV suggests, but the studies are interesting.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 02, 2011, 10:59:52 pm
I beg to differ.

Unless you and bharminder only live and breathe on Raw Honey, the cause of your problem might be something else.

Excess intake of proteins can cause acidic reactions which might be the cause. A few good tips would be to brush your teeth after your meals and swishing.

Raw honey remains palatable for 100s and thousands of years because of its antibacterial and antifungal properties.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Rawdietforhealth on January 02, 2011, 11:05:57 pm
That's a Vermont, USA honey. Do you get that in the Philippines or are you in the USA?

I found what the substance is that has insulin-like activity. It's royal jelly. One of the studies didn't have a positive result, but all the most recent ones did, including a clinical trial in humans.



I am in the Philippines and found it here in a health food store.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 12:22:43 am
So where do you guys get your Raw Honey from? Any Bee Pollen / Royal Jelly Lovers out there?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 03, 2011, 12:42:02 am
Excess intake of proteins can cause acidic reactions which might be the cause.
Raw honey cruds up my teeth like bharminder said even if I eat it alone.

Quote
A few good tips would be to brush your teeth after your meals and swishing.
Yup, that's basically what bharminder recommended and that's what I do. No matter how well I brush, I still end up with crud in the morning after I eat plant carbs, so I think it may feed bacteria in my mouth.

Quote
Raw honey remains palatable for 100s and thousands of years because of its antibacterial and antifungal properties.
Yes, I've read about it's benefits and it's quite tasty, so I was disappointed with the results. I imagine that if I had been on a traditional diet from conception then raw honey probably wouldn't be a problem for me. There also many not be enough royal jelly in the kinds I've tried.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: King Salmon on January 03, 2011, 01:19:29 am


Raw honey remains palatable for 100s and thousands of years because of its antibacterial and antifungal properties.

Antifungal? How will it perform against Candida? Candida feeds on sugar.Honey is a sugar.It doesn't add up ???
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: miles on January 03, 2011, 01:20:18 am
For those who want to eat unheated honey but get teeth problems I recommend brushing your teeth immediately after eating the honey. Since it is very sticky, it can wreck your teeth unless you clean them..

In my experience comb honey was much easier on the teeth.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 03, 2011, 01:25:08 am
I found comb honey to be slightly better to regular raw honey, though it still had negative dental effects. I think that chewing the wax helped a little. By interesting coincidence I've found that chewing suet, which has a similar consistency, has one of the best dental benefits of the foods I've tried.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 01:26:44 am
Antifungal? How will it perform against Candida? Candida feeds on sugar.Honey is a sugar.It doesn't add up ???

What's with the Candida, m8? Candida is your best friend. It's the body's backup system incase your insulin / pancreas couldnt get rid of the excess sugars in your body.

I have a question for you, do you include lots of fats in your diet; from animal or plant source? That might be the cause of your problem. Candida is in everyone of us, and will remain in us until we die. As long as you live and breathe, you will have Candida.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 01:33:02 am
I found comb honey to be slightly better to regular raw honey, though it still had negative dental effects. I think that chewing the wax helped a little. By interesting coincidence I've found that chewing suet, which has a similar consistency, has one of the best dental benefits of the foods I've tried.

So if you take one or two teaspoon(s) of honey everyday, you'll have teeth probs? What kind of teeth is that? That's not natural, phil. I dont have any problems. My teeth are like white pearls.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 01:34:37 am
In my experience comb honey was much easier on the teeth.

I like both, honey and honey comb. But it doesnt matter, both are very good for healthy teeth. Infact you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: King Salmon on January 03, 2011, 01:41:23 am
What's with the Candida, m8? Candida is your best friend. It's the body's backup system incase your insulin / pancreas couldnt get rid of the excess sugars in your body.

So,you haven't heard of Candida overgrowth? Fats help for sure.I don't see how honey is a "miracle" food though.To me it's just another source of sugar.Coconut oil is a much better choice for anifungal/antibacterial IMHO.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: miles on January 03, 2011, 01:42:00 am
What's with the Candida, m8? Candida is your best friend. It's the body's backup system incase your insulin / pancreas couldnt get rid of the excess sugars in your body.

I have a question for you, do you include lots of fats in your diet; from animal or plant source? That might be the cause of your problem. Candida is in everyone of us, and will remain in us until we die. As long as you live and breathe, you will have Candida.

Sounds about what I thought. But couldn't someone have a problem that means they never produce enough insulin, and so would need to be careful around sugars until their body healed?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 02:02:07 am
So,you haven't heard of Candida overgrowth? Fats help for sure.I don't see how honey is a "miracle" food though.To me it's just another source of sugar.Coconut oil is a much better choice for anifungal/antibacterial IMHO.

Well it depends on what honey you are talking about. If it's the raw honey from the markets or from the next door bee-keeper then yes it is nothing special. Very good but not very potent. But if you go for Manuka Honey, or the Yemen Sidr Honey then now we're talking about the real stuff. Bees make around 37,000 trips of collecting pollen in their average life; the worker bees that collect the Pollen from the sidr tree (also known as Lote tree, Christ's Thorn, Jujube or Nabkh tree), die after only 3 trips (3 as opposed to 37000 (thirty seven thousand); that's how potent the nectar of this tree is), and the anti-oxidant levels of the sidr honey and those of the Manuka honey are 10 times those of the normal raw honey. Price is expensive though; 200 box per Kilo and that's the B Grade stuff.

Hehe, Coconut oil is Fat. Yes, if you're coming from a SAD diet, taking coconut oil or cooking with it or preparing your food with it is one hell of an improvement. But once your diet improves and so your body, you need to look into the real good stuff.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 03, 2011, 02:32:18 am
So if you take one or two teaspoon(s) of honey everyday, you'll have teeth probs? What kind of teeth is that? That's not natural, phil. I dont have any problems. My teeth are like white pearls.
I'm not claiming that you do have problems with honey. Everyone doesn't respond the same to everything. That's one thing that has been made eminently clear to me by this forum and others. I've been amazed by the wide variance in reactions to the same foods by people just at this forum, and even moreso when including folks at other forums I sometimes peruse. Don't worry about raw honey not working for me. If it works for you that's great and all you need be concerned with. Just please don't try to speak for everyone. Your experience is your own, not mine nor anyone else's. I have nothing against raw honey. I love it and would be thrilled if I adapted to it some day, maybe with the help of royal jelly, I don't know. If not, that's OK too, as I love meats and fish. I'll make lemonade of whatever lemons I'm given. :D
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 02:38:27 am
I'm not claiming that you do have problems with honey. Everyone doesn't respond the same to everything. That's one thing that has been made eminently clear to me by this forum and others. I've been amazed by the wide variance in reactions to the same foods by people just at this forum, and even moreso when including folks at other forums I sometimes peruse. Don't worry about raw honey not working for me. If it works for you that's great and all you need be concerned with. Just please don't try to speak for everyone. Your experience is your own, not mine nor anyone else's. I have nothing against raw honey. I love it and would be thrilled if I adapted to it some day, maybe with the help of royal jelly, I don't know. If not, that's OK too, as I love meats and fish. I'll make lemonade of whatever lemons I'm given. :D

I just worry about people, that is all.  ;)

But seriously, i am not speaking for everyone; i am simply pointing out my index finger at the obvious truth. We should not mislead people into thinking honey is bad for them. There's a reason why honey stays palatable for 100s of years. almost any food which stands the test of time is actually an excellent addition to one's diet. Honey is one of them. 
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 03, 2011, 02:43:26 am
I just worry about people, that is all.  ;)

But seriously, i am not speaking for everyone
That's good to see.

Quote
We should not mislead people into thinking honey is bad for them.
I haven't, and nor should we mislead them into think that honey is magically good for everyone. People should go by their own experiences, not just what you or I tell them.

Quote
There's a reason why honey stays palatable for 100s of years. almost any food which stands the test of time is actually an excellent addition to one's diet. Honey is one of them. 
But not necessarily for everyone, because you are "not speaking for everyone," right?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: michaelwh on January 03, 2011, 02:45:43 am
So if you take one or two teaspoon(s) of honey everyday, you'll have teeth probs? What kind of teeth is that? That's not natural, phil. I dont have any problems. My teeth are like white pearls.

I like both, honey and honey comb. But it doesnt matter, both are very good for healthy teeth. Infact you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey.

I experience dental problems if I eat honey on a regular basis.

If I eat a few teaspoons of honey every day, over the period of a month or two, then my teeth start getting loose. If I then cut out the honey, my teeth start getting firm again.

Honey has helped me with other things (for example, during a cold/flu), but it always has negative effects on my teeth.

I'm curious, what is the basis of your statement that "you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey"? Personal experience? Theory? Some article that you read?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: King Salmon on January 03, 2011, 02:46:06 am
David,so you like raw fish and honey?You must have been a bear in a previous life. ;D
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 02:48:01 am
That's good to see.
I haven't, and nor should we mislead them into think that honey is magically good for everyone. People should go by their own experiences, not just what you or I tell them.
But not necessarily for everyone, because you are "not speaking for everyone," right?

I would rather learn from other's mistakes. Yeah i wasnt speaking for everyone; it's just the echo of what i said resonating into everyone's ears. Truth can be very load and difficult to hide, Phil. Not speaking for everyone here, just from my experience.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 02:54:02 am
I experience dental problems if I eat honey on a regular basis.

If I eat a few teaspoons of honey every day, over the period of a month or two, then my teeth start getting loose. If I then cut out the honey, my teeth start getting firm again.

Honey has helped me with other things (for example, during a cold/flu), but it always has negative effects on my teeth.

I'm curious, what is the basis of your statement that "you can fight tooth decay by eating more honey"? Personal experience? Theory? Some article that you read?

yeah m8; personal experience and also read it on the net. Google it; i am not making this up. Next time Get Manuka Honey 15+ UMF and above; its not that expensive; around 30 to 40$.


Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 02:57:49 am
David,so you like raw fish and honey?You must have been a bear in a previous life. ;D

And you must've been a Salmon Fish. If only we have met in the previous life.  ;)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Hannibal on January 03, 2011, 03:02:09 am
Honey has helped me with other things (for example, during a cold/flu), but it always has negative effects on my teeth.
Practically every stick has two ends.
Even so healthy organ-meats packed with so many nutrients have got a lot of purines which can lead to gout in some people.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on January 03, 2011, 03:59:56 am
So where do you guys get your Raw Honey from? Any Bee Pollen / Royal Jelly Lovers out there?
  I used to get sundried bee pollen quite a lot some years ago but I stopped after I realised I was feeling abnormally hot soon afterwards. I find that raw, liquid honey of whatever type seems to cause an extremely negative shift in blood-sugar levels plus a nasty very odd taste in my mouth, so I cut it out quick from my diet. Raw honeycomb(especially the darker, richer kind like healther honeycomb) affects me much less, though I seem to react to it badly if I consume large amounts of it at a time. I get my honeycomb from local farmers' markets. I see it as a nice, occasional delicacy to have in the summer, but I wouldn't dream of having it as a staple in the diet. I never got any effect from bee propolis, but all the propolis products I found were highly processed, so that might have been the reason.

I also, after a long search,  tried genuinely raw royal jelly(almost all royal jelly seems to be preheated some way). That was the only genuinely healthy raw honey product, from my POV, as it gave me a huge amount of sudden instant energy.

One of the main things complained about on the Primal Diet was the excessive amounts of raw honey that Aajonus recommended(though I've heard from some that he recommends lower amounts now).  Therefore, while we view raw honey to be fine for some (though not RZCers, of course, among others), it's often recommended to keep raw honey intake to just low or moderate levels. I am sure there are some who can wolf down raw honey in very large amounts without any side-effects, but, last I checked, they were in a minority. Anyway, everyone is expected to do their own experimentation to see what works for one on a RVAF diet, given that we all have different tolerances to foods etc.

Love the avatar, naturally.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: michaelwh on January 03, 2011, 11:13:53 am
yeah m8; personal experience and also read it on the net. Google it; i am not making this up. Next time Get Manuka Honey 15+ UMF and above; its not that expensive; around 30 to 40$.

I did find a number of articles about how Manuka honey can help with dental problems, due to its anti-bacterial properties.

About 3 years ago, I found Manuka honey in a health food store and tried it. It was UMF 18 (the highest they had). However, it was heated (but not pasteurized). It had a nice taste. I was eating local honey at the same time as the Manuka honey, so I don't know if Manuka by itself is bad for my teeth. It might be worth a try. Do you know a source for unheated Manuka honey?

I've also been reading up on Yemen Sidr honey. Very expensive, but I might try it once. Maybe it won't have such a bad effect on my teeth.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 12:47:57 pm
I did find a number of articles about how Manuka honey can help with dental problems, due to its anti-bacterial properties.

About 3 years ago, I found Manuka honey in a health food store and tried it. It was UMF 18 (the highest they had). However, it was heated (but not pasteurized). It had a nice taste. I was eating local honey at the same time as the Manuka honey, so I don't know if Manuka by itself is bad for my teeth. It might be worth a try. Do you know a source for unheated Manuka honey?

I've also been reading up on Yemen Sidr honey. Very expensive, but I might try it once. Maybe it won't have such a bad effect on my teeth.

You see, imo, nothing taken in moderation, will hurt you even poison (vaccination...etc). It's absurd to throw all the blame of our teeth problems on Honey because that's absolutely not true.  Anything taken excessively will cause damage (even water). The more is less.

I am actually looking for unheated Manuka like yourself. Havent done a proper search yet; i might do that later. Will revert if i stumbled across any sources. Please do the same too. But i think they'll mostly be heated.


I dont mind buying expensive yemen sidr honey; havent tried it yet myself (i just got to know about it recently). But i have to find a source i can trust because they can easily rip you and you'll never know. If i find anything, i will also revert.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: majormark on January 03, 2011, 08:47:59 pm
Scott Wheeler explains here what is the insulin like substance:

"The insulin like factor is actually plant amylase, collected and concentrated by the bees. It will convert starches into maltose (thus reducing insulin requirements)."

http://flexrx.nourished.com.au/2008/08/06/the-primal-diet/#comment-985
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: David Howe on January 03, 2011, 10:28:23 pm
Well done, Major!

Another Yay to Raw Honey!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 06, 2011, 11:04:34 am
Scott Wheeler explains here what is the insulin like substance:

"The insulin like factor is actually plant amylase, collected and concentrated by the bees. It will convert starches into maltose (thus reducing insulin requirements)."

http://flexrx.nourished.com.au/2008/08/06/the-primal-diet/#comment-985
That's great, Majormark. I hope that means I'll be able to handle raw honey better some day in the future. On the bright side for me, it seems I can eat plenty more calories from honey with less negative effects than fruits, and my tolerance for raw honey seems to be gradually improving over time, in that I can eat more without getting nauseous or fuzzy-headed (though I can develop mild stomach irritation if I don't eat meat or fat with it). On the other hand, during the last 4 months in which I've been eating more carbs than in the prior months, including more raw honey, my dentist says I've developed the beginnings of two new cavities that need filling (though it also turns out that the new toothpaste I was using doesn't contain fluoride, so that may have been a factor), so maybe I'm just fooling myself with wishful thinking that I'll be able to handle raw honey well some day.

I also provided links to studies that suggest that royal jelly is also an insulin-like substance (although one older study didn't support this hypothesis). Is Aajonus aware of the reputed insulin-like effects of royal jelly? If not, it might be another point supporting his promotion of raw honey.

Some here have mentioned that AV reduced his recommendation of raw honey consumption. Have you heard this and do you have any sources on this that you can refer me to?

I know that hunter-gatherers gorge on honeycomb/grubcomb when it's available, as I've discussed before. There is also the case of "the Honeymen" who apparently consume enormous quantities of raw honeycomb, fermented raw honey, and mead and I haven't seen any reports of ill health among them, though that doesn't prove that they don't have any diseases of civilization, of course. It would surprise me if honey had serious negative health effects on people who eat a HG diet from conception, at least when the honey consumed is wild, raw, whole (honeycomb and grubcomb) and when consumed in season and in the quantities that HGs consume it in the wild.

In case there's any misunderstanding by anyone, my reports of negative effects from raw honey and raw honeycomb are only meant to be regarding me, not anyone else. I don't take exception to anyone reporting negative effects from the foods I thrive on--raw meats/fish/organs and animal fat--and I hope that no one takes exception to any negative reports I make about their most beneficial or favorite foods. Negative reports about popular foods like raw honey, pemmican and other fatty foods, raw fruits, and starchy foods seem to generate hostility at times. In my case, I'm not pushing any agenda, not prescribing for anyone, and not extrapolating my experience onto anyone. I love raw honey and I wish I could eat it every day, so I can't imagine any reason that my negative reports about it would cause hostility and I'm hoping that they haven't. If anyone does perceive a hidden propaganda message in what I write, I hope they will respond with specifics and I hope they will feel comfortable addressing them directly to me so I can resolve any misconceptions.

The negative effects I get from raw honey could be due to past damage from SAD or individual genetics or epigenetics or who knows what. Everyone is different. I'm open-minded to whatever the facts are. Like Lex, I mean what I say and nothing more. There is no hidden message in-between my lines.

BTW, I've tried heated 16+ Manuka honey before and to me it seemed like an inferior product to raw honey. I'm suprised that someone would promote heated honey on this board, particularly in a thread labeled "Raw Unheated Honey", as raw multiple Manuka honey products are easily found on Amazon.com. I'm curious about trying the 16+ or more raw Manuka honey products, but am not interested in trying the heated ones again.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: King Salmon on January 06, 2011, 11:29:06 am

I know that hunter-gatherers gorge on honeycomb/grubcomb when it's available, as I've discussed before. There is also the case of "the Honeymen" who apparently consume enormous quantities of raw honeycomb, fermented raw honey, and mead and I haven't seen any reports of ill health among them,

In case there's any misunderstanding by anyone, my reports of negative effects from raw honey and raw honeycomb are only meant to be regarding me, not anyone else. I don't take exception to anyone reporting negative effects from the foods I thrive on--raw meats/fish/organs and animal fat--and I hope that no one takes exception to any negative reports I make about their most beneficial or favorite foods. Negative reports about popular foods like raw honey, pemmican and other fatty foods, raw fruits, and starchy foods seem to generate hostility at times. In my case, I'm not pushing any agenda, not prescribing for anyone, and not extrapolating my experience onto anyone. I love raw honey and I wish I could eat it every day, so I can't imagine any reason that my negative reports about it would cause hostility and I'm hoping that they haven't. If anyone does perceive a hidden propaganda message in what I write, I hope they will respond with specifics and I hope they will feel comfortable addressing them directly to me so I can resolve any misconceptions.

The negative effects I get from raw honey could be due to past damage from SAD or individual genetics or epigenetics or who knows what. Everyone is different. I'm open-minded to whatever the facts are. Like Lex, I mean what I say and nothing more. There is no hidden message in-between my lines.

cool,"Honeymen"...sounds like a band from the 60's 8)

Btw,that's a heck of a disclaimer Phil.I don't know why you feel you need to write all that.To make it easier you might as well put something at the bottom of your sig.Just in case you need to get that across in future posts.Just sayin'.

Like I've said before,one man's food is another man's poison.There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.If someone wants to eat honey all day.Have at it.I just get a little tired of the salesmanship of cetain "miracle" foods by certain posters.For myself,I'm doing great on coconut oil.But I'm sure not promoting it ;)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 06, 2011, 11:42:20 am
I don't know why you feel you need to write all that.To make it easier you might as well put something at the bottom of your sig.Just in case you need to get that across in future posts.Just sayin'.
I think I already have the basics covered in my sig "Discussion aids' and there's no more room, unfortunately. :) Few seem to notice them anyway. I must admit that I don't read sigs much myself. For one thing, the font is too small, though I've been trying to read them more since I created my own sig. I also put something in my avatar. In spite of all this, when I report any negative results from carby foods in this forum there seems to often follow some sort of complaint about people putting down good foods or making up false symptoms or misreading their symptoms or not giving the food enough time or doing something wrong or something of the sort. No amount of explaining before, during or after seems has seemed to prevent or alleviate it up to now. Sometimes folks will say that the complaints are unrelated to the posts in which I and other posters report negative results from eating popular foods. But it's strange that they always seem to come right afterwards for whatever reason. My current strategy is to beat the point to death in the hopes that I get complaints about too much explanation instead of perceptions of too much hostility by me toward yummy raw honey and raw fruit. So far it seems to be working. ;)

Quote
Like I've said before,one man's food is another man's poison.There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.If someone wants to eat honey all day.Have at it.
Exactly. I'm not disputing them--on the contrary, I'm envious. If it really bothered me it would be like adding insult to injury to receive negative reactions to my negative reports from trying to eat the foods I love and wish I could eat more of. But it doesn't really bother me anyway. I look at negative reactions and rebuttals as useful tools for putting my analyses, ideas and assumptions/givens to the test or improving my communications. That's why I tend to get more out of boards where people disagree with me more, like this one, than ones where people largely agree with me, so I can see alternative views and maybe learn something or spark a new tangential idea (although this can go too far to the other extreme--I doubt I'd learn much at 30BAD, where people would likely just spew unsupported propaganda at me off the top of their heads about how I shouldn't murder animals and how magical eating tons of sugary fruits is and the like). Like someone else indicated, I don't like "circle jerks," if you'll pardon the expression. :P I also think people could disagree without acting disagreeable. A combination of a variety of views with fact-based and research-supported points politely made by experienced and well-read people would be the best of all worlds, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. ;) I would like to get to the point where my communications are sufficiently clear that people disagree with me for views I actually hold rather than views that are the complete opposite of what I think. :D

Quote
I just get a little tired of the salesmanship of cetain "miracle" foods by certain posters.For myself,I'm doing great on coconut oil.But I'm sure not promoting it ;)
I hear you. I try not to sell anything myself, nor portray anything as "miracle" foods. And yet, if you had told me years ago the benefits I would experience from avoiding certain foods and eating certain others, it would have sounded like an impossible miracle to me. So I do understand people's desire to want to "save the world," as it were. That seems to wear off somewhat in many people over time. It seems to be the newbies who are most prone to the most strident evangelism, though not always (I think DurianRider has been at it quite a while now, for example, though I don't know how long).
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Wolf on February 11, 2011, 04:58:03 pm
I haven't read this entire thread, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Trader Joe's Raw Organic Honey is really raw.. because I know a lot of times things are labeled as raw but they don't mean it's unheated.  I think it is unheated though, because the honey is thick and solid and opaque rather than runny amber and see-through.. but there's nothing on the label saying if its unheated or unprocessed or anything.  but here's what it looks like:
(from google images)
(http://danicasdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/IMG_4246.jpg)

I did find another place that sells raw honeys that actually say on the labels that its unheated/unprocessed/unfiltered but i think they are more expensive.  I also found this amazing super enriched honey, the brand is "Y.S. Organic Bee Farms" and is labeled "specially harvested/raw, unprocessed, unpasteurized super enriched honey" ... it's ingredients are bee pollen, bee propolis, royal jelly, and raw honey.  it tastes absolutely amazing, it's really delicious, I can't seem to get enough of it.  I just wish it was local, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find any local raw honey or honeycombs.  I'd recommend anyone who eats honey to try this super enriched honey though, if they can find it, the bottle looks like this:
(http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=500&uid=807465646)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RomanK on March 05, 2011, 12:59:10 am
Yesterday there was reportage about African tribe. The people look great with good muscles, especially biceps (though not like bodybuilders ?)
The most valuable thing for them is HONEY! The men are ready to die for it! It is very dangerous business to collect honey. A man must climb on the tree (I suppose around 15 m)and with a axe “open” the trunk, collect honey combs and put it into the bucket, descend it down to the ground.
The whole process is very “primitive”, climbing with liana like rope loop device, bucket is from leaves and branches, man is practically naked. (I wonder how he survives?... Might be bees do not touch him?).
The only certain thing is: honey is treasure for these people and they eat it with big pleasure. But keep in mind that it is REAL honey...
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 05, 2011, 05:50:17 am
I think the video you're talking about is one that was posted in this forum before. The narrator said that the man was stung many times, but he didn't even flinch. Amazing!

I've tried many raw honeys and I've been getting what seem like very positive results from Really Raw brand fermented honey. It seems like the best results from any honey so far, but it's too early to report in detail yet.

Has anyone else noticed better results from fermented raw honey than regular raw honey?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: MaximilianKohler on March 08, 2011, 08:38:34 am
That trader joe's honey is pretty nice. It's not excessively sweet. And it's pretty cheap for quality honey at $6/lb.

Not sure if it's completely unheated though. You could probably call them and ask.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on March 08, 2011, 10:38:37 am
Has anyone else noticed better results from fermented raw honey than regular raw honey?
How does one ferment honey?
I was pretty sure raw honey lasts longer than people do.

When I run a search all I can find is mead brewing...
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 08, 2011, 11:41:11 am
Fermented honey = honey that contains a tiny bit of moisture and which has naturally fermented (like natural sauerkraut, yoghurt, kumiss, high meat, stink fish, fermented seal oil, fermented whale oil, etc.)
Mead = a fermented liquid beverage made from a naturally fermented solution of (honey + added water) and sometimes other ingredients

Fermented Honey      
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/499-fermented-honey.html

"Since early times, man has made fermented drinks with honey. The most important was mead, an alcoholic beverage, enjoyed by the English and Russians. The word derives from the Sanskrit word for honey, which is madhu. A similar drink called t’ej is popular in Ethiopia.

What is less well known is the fact that honey itself can ferment, if it contains enough residual moisture and is left in a warm place--honey ferments but never spoils! Fermented honey actually expands somewhat, and develops rich flavors. It is an even better aid to digestion than regular honey."


Really Raw Fermented Honey
http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH

"Fermented honey is the Nectar and Ambrosia of the Greek gods and the basic ingredient of Mead, a beverage enjoyed since antiquity.

With a rich, sharp taste and smell, our fermented honey is soft and frothy. The taste and consistency make it ideal for lemonade or smoothies (see our lemonade recipe). In general, it can be used exactly like our other honeys.

Moisture and warmth produce fermentation. When the moisture level of the honey is slightly elevated and the temperature is warm, fermentation may occur, due to the enzymes and the yeast in honey. Two main reasons for heating honey in modern times are to stop fermentation and be able to strain it. But fermentation is not harmful. Some people believe that it is more effective for digestion than honey that is not fermented, but we have not seen any documentation to either prove or disprove this theory.

During the fermentation process the honey can get bubbly and even overspill out of the jar, so keep that in mind when storing."


Mead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead

"Mead (pronounced /'mi?d/ meed) (also called honey wine) is an alcoholic beverage that is produced by fermenting a solution of honey and water.[1] It may also be produced by fermenting a solution of water and honey with grain mash; the mash is strained off immediately after fermentation."
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on March 08, 2011, 11:47:35 am
Thanks PP
You are always great with info!

Unfortunately the honey here in the southwest is mostly dry, like 15% moisture.
I might be making mead soon though, that should be interesting.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 08, 2011, 11:49:51 am
You're welcome! I love wise-cracking babies, BTW. ;D
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: actup on March 08, 2011, 11:59:20 am
You're welcome! I love wise-cracking babies, BTW. ;D

well someone called me a baby because I love milk, so I thought I would wear it!  :D
Also my facebook pic, it's my favorite picture of myself thus far. LoL!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Wolf on March 11, 2011, 04:58:59 pm
So, could I ferment my raw honey by adding a drop or so of water into my jar of honey and letting it sit for a while?  I've already let it been sitting out for a long time, though I don't suppose it has enough moisture to ferment properly..

It won't become alcoholic though, will it?  I am against consuming any sort of alcohol, I don't want this to turn into mead..
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on March 12, 2011, 02:03:59 am
    You could make honey alcoholic by mixing it with water and letting it sit.  At least it's not grain whiskey or grape wine.  I've added honey to grain sprouts and other times organic fruit peels with clean water to make bubbly mildly alcoholic beverages.  It goes over well with guests who would otherwise want beer or champagne.  It tastes "live", unlike anything one could buy.  I'm not so sure it's always goods to help you digest your meal, like some claim, but it's a fairly healthy thing that is not available otherwise.  I wouldn't say anyone would do well to drink it every day.

    By the way, I don't think fermented honey is on the primal diet.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 12, 2011, 06:38:12 am
It won't become alcoholic though, will it?  I am against consuming any sort of alcohol, I don't want this to turn into mead..[/font]
Based on the info above on mead, it sounds like it needs to be a solution of water with some honey in it to make mead, not honey with a drop of water. I've never seen thick mead for sale, have you? I can't say there would be zero alcohol in fermented honey, though I doubt there would be much. I'm not concerned about it myself. If you are, you could search online or ask at one of the mead forums.

BTW, I ordered both the unfermented and fermented Really Raw honey this time. I tried the unfermented and it didn't give me the benefits that the fermented did. So the fermentation seems to be the key for me. The WAPF claims that fermented honey is even better for the digestion than unfermented, but they didn't give any reasons why or any details. If anyone knows anything about fermented raw honey, I hope they'll share a tidbit or two. I searched online and haven't anything beyond the brief claim at the WAPF site.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on April 02, 2011, 09:23:44 pm
   You could make honey alcoholic by mixing it with water and letting it sit.  At least it's not grain whiskey or grape wine.  I've added honey to grain sprouts and other times organic fruit peels with clean water to make bubbly mildly alcoholic beverages.  It goes over well with guests who would otherwise want beer or champagne.  It tastes "live", unlike anything one could buy.  I'm not so sure it's always goods to help you digest your meal, like some claim, but it's a fairly healthy thing that is not available otherwise.  I wouldn't say anyone would do well to drink it every day.

    By the way, I don't think fermented honey is on the primal diet.

Details please! That sounds excellent. What sprouts, peels, how long etc.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on April 02, 2011, 10:42:55 pm
Details please! That sounds excellent. What sprouts, peels, how long etc.

    Mostly I'd use what I cut off organic local pineapple.

    I used wheat, rye and millet sprouts. Look at the CHI site. I think they would have a good recipe for "rejuvelac champagne".
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on April 02, 2011, 11:53:09 pm
Here is what I found;

HOW TO MAKE REJUVELAC


CREATIVE HEALTH INSTITUTE’S METHOD:

This method is good if there are temperature fluctuations.  It makes a tarter, more flavorful rejuvelac than the whole berry method.  Also, because more of the seed is exposed to water, fermentation is more complete.  This results in a rejuvelac that is nutritionally superior to other methods.

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable).
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Grind sprouted seeds in a blender.
4.   Put one cup ground seed sprouts into a gallon jar and fill with water.
5.   Let stand at room temperature (68-72 degrees), stirring twice daily for 2 to 4 days.  If the temperature of the room is higher, fermentation occurs more quickly.  Rejuvelac may be ready in as little as 1 day.


WHOLE BERRY METHOD

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable) in a gallon jar.
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Pour water over the sprouted wheat seeds in the jar.  Use approximately 3 times the amount of water as there are wheat seeds.
4.   Cover the jar with wire mesh or cheese cloth.  Keep at room temperature for 48 hours.
5.   You now have your first batch of rejuvelac.  Pour the liquid into another jar for drinking.  Ideally drinks should be at room temperature, so have some rejuvelac at room temperature in a pitcher or decanter and refrigerate the amount not needed.  Rejuvelac will keep for several days if refrigerated.  Use rejuvelac whenever blending because its vitamin E content acts as an antioxidant.
6.   Use the leftover wheat seeds to make 2 more batches of rejuvelac.  Start at step 3 again, but soak for 24 hours each time instead of for 48 hours, then discard the wheat seeds.


HOW TO MAKE “PINK CHAMPAGNE” FROM REJUVELAC

1.   Put some uncooked honey in a bowl (about 1/8 cup per quart of rejuvelac). 
2.   Pour some rejuvelac onto the honey and mix thoroughly to dissolve the honey.
3.   Pour the mixture into the jar of rejuvelac and let stand at room temperature for 12 to 24 hours.
4.   Add a small amount of beet juice to give it a pink color.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 03, 2011, 04:27:05 am
...   By the way, I don't think fermented honey is on the primal diet.
Why not? It's made by one of the brands that Aajonus recommends and he recommends fermented meats and fish.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on April 03, 2011, 06:16:54 am
Why not? It's made by one of the brands that Aajonus recommends and he recommends fermented meats and fish.

    I don't think he's against it either. I just never heard him mention it nor remember reading anything he wrote about it.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: RawZi on April 03, 2011, 06:19:35 am
    Practice also helps. Also, I prefer not to grind it.
Here is what I found;

HOW TO MAKE REJUVELAC


CREATIVE HEALTH INSTITUTE’S METHOD:

This method is good if there are temperature fluctuations.  It makes a tarter, more flavorful rejuvelac than the whole berry method.  Also, because more of the seed is exposed to water, fermentation is more complete.  This results in a rejuvelac that is nutritionally superior to other methods.

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable).
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Grind sprouted seeds in a blender.
4.   Put one cup ground seed sprouts into a gallon jar and fill with water.
5.   Let stand at room temperature (68-72 degrees), stirring twice daily for 2 to 4 days.  If the temperature of the room is higher, fermentation occurs more quickly.  Rejuvelac may be ready in as little as 1 day.


WHOLE BERRY METHOD

1.   Soak wheat seeds for 10-12 hours (soft variety preferable) in a gallon jar.
2.   Drain.  Let sprout for at least one full day (until you see a tail).  Rinse twice a day.
3.   Pour water over the sprouted wheat seeds in the jar.  Use approximately 3 times the amount of water as there are wheat seeds.
4.   Cover the jar with wire mesh or cheese cloth.  Keep at room temperature for 48 hours.
5.   You now have your first batch of rejuvelac.  Pour the liquid into another jar for drinking.  Ideally drinks should be at room temperature, so have some rejuvelac at room temperature in a pitcher or decanter and refrigerate the amount not needed.  Rejuvelac will keep for several days if refrigerated.  Use rejuvelac whenever blending because its vitamin E content acts as an antioxidant.
6.   Use the leftover wheat seeds to make 2 more batches of rejuvelac.  Start at step 3 again, but soak for 24 hours each time instead of for 48 hours, then discard the wheat seeds.


HOW TO MAKE “PINK CHAMPAGNE” FROM REJUVELAC

1.   Put some uncooked honey in a bowl (about 1/8 cup per quart of rejuvelac). 
2.   Pour some rejuvelac onto the honey and mix thoroughly to dissolve the honey.
3.   Pour the mixture into the jar of rejuvelac and let stand at room temperature for 12 to 24 hours.
4.   Add a small amount of beet juice to give it a pink color.

Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 03, 2011, 07:41:37 am
    I don't think he's against it either. I just never heard him mention it nor remember reading anything he wrote about it.
Yeah, I haven't either. I wonder why?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on January 16, 2015, 06:16:11 am
Can anyone back up AVs claims about raw honey? How it helps digest meats and fats? I can't find anything on google about it...

I had a terrible reaction to Really raw honey. I ate it with meat and butter. When eating raw honey my bowels transit time increased, and had a massive breakout of acne across my entire face.

Possible that Increased transit time is because honey helped digest more of my meals? Could acne be a detox of some type?

Waiting for my acne to clear up and will try a different brand.

AVs raw honey claims seem outrageous to me. If anyone has any evidence to support it please share!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 16, 2015, 06:27:09 am
Yes, I've tried nearly all the most-touted honeys and the fermented variety of Really Raw honey (a brand that I learned about from Aajonus and other members here) improved my digestion some and didn't give me any acne breakouts like other honeys did (including the unfermented version of Really Raw). Plus, it reduced my scalp dandruff and improved my hair, so that it felt less greasy, thicker, fuller, younger--though only as long as I continued to eat it at least every few days. For economic reasons I switched to a cheaper raw honey that doesn't provide as much benefits, though is still slightly beneficial.

Not everyone likes it, though. I've noticed that among the family and friends that I have given some to, the sickest report that they don't like it.

Maybe it helps that I don't eat large amounts of honey at a time. I've noticed that some people reporting problems from honey reported eating well over the teaspoon or tablespoon or two at a time that I normally eat, and I don't eat it every day.

Coincidentally, quite a bit of positive research about honey was recently shared here:

http://freetheanimal.com/2015/01/paleogate-cordains-coverup.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2015/01/paleogate-cordains-coverup.html)

As always, YMMV and to each his own.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on January 16, 2015, 07:10:16 am
Paleo phil,

 thanks for the link!!! Loved the video!

I don't think I will use really raw honey again, unless it's the fermented type.

Definitely going to experiment with other brands. My friend gave me a glass jar of Wee Bees, seems promising. I want to try heavenly Organics acia honey as well.  Will experiment with fermenting my own honey as well.

Seems like honey is best eaten alone, or with comb/grubs like in video. Food combining seems very important for my digestion. I don't see how It could improve digestion of animal meat or fat(butter), likely will stear clear of those combinations.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: eveheart on January 16, 2015, 09:20:01 am
Can anyone back up AVs claims about raw honey? How it helps digest meats and fats?...
AVs raw honey claims seem outrageous to me.

To me, the most outrageous AV honey claim is the testimonial about a type 1 diabetic who ate her way through jars of honey and claims to have completely cured her diabetes.

Even the mere idea that we have to eat one food to help digest another really doesn't set well with me. If we couldn't digest a category of food, we wouldn't have been eating it for millenia. How would paleo man know about his "need" for honey to digest meat and fat, and where is there any evidence that our species used honey with all meats and fats because we needed it to help digestion?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 16, 2015, 10:01:40 am
I like the Wee Bee honey and Heavenly Organics Organic Wild Forest Raw Neem Honey. I tried small containers of quite a few honeys and found the range of tastes and effects to be surprisingly wide. All honey is certainly not the same.

AV did make a lot of extravagant claims, which I take with a grain of salt, along with the claims of many other gurus. While honey is not a necessity to digest meat, some have reported various benefits from raw honey, and my own overal digestion improved a bit (mostly with carbs and acidic foods, rather than meats), so it's not completely implausible that honey might improve still more people's digestion.

It's also possible to go too far in the other direction. We could use the excuse of lack of necessity to avoid eating almost any particular natural food. Is there any single specific essential food aside from water?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on January 16, 2015, 03:22:49 pm
AV was right often enough that when he was really wrong it was hard to know.

However my iron clad rule is that if something gives me a hard time, I avoid it.

Heated honey is specifically mentioned in Ayurveda as being a no-no. It's toxic. However unheated honey and especially if you can luck into some wild honey is a yes-yes, but if it bothers you then avoid it. I cannot tolerate heated honey but raw with coconut cream and or butter is awesome. We went through a very long period of eating lots of it regularly.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on January 16, 2015, 08:10:22 pm
Ok, it was also foolish of me to place 100% blame on raw honey. I just assumed it was the cause because of all the sugar. I Havnt eaten any raw honey in 3 days, and a new pimple formed, very strange for me, I'm usually acne free. Must be a reaction to something else.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Joy2012 on January 17, 2015, 01:29:31 pm
I haven't read this entire thread, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Trader Joe's Raw Organic Honey is really raw.. because I know a lot of times things are labeled as raw but they don't mean it's unheated.  I think it is unheated though, because the honey is thick and solid and opaque rather than runny amber and see-through.. but there's nothing on the label saying if its unheated or unprocessed or anything. 

If there is nothing on the label saying that it is unheated and preserves enzymes etc., I would assume it is heated. Honey can be heated to 160 degrees and still claims to be raw.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 18, 2015, 12:10:02 am
FYI: That question from Wolf was from years ago, though maybe she'll still be interested in the answer. :)

Now that Aajonus is gone, does anyone have his list of producers and distributors of honey that he verified as really raw (unheated, cold packed)?

I know that Aajonus verified Really Raw, Honey Pacifica, Sweet William of Earlville Raw Honey and some other honeys as unheated (ie, the temperature did not rise above 92.8 F), which was his maximum allowable temperature to cerifty a honey as unheated (Source: We Want to Live).

If you want the truly unheated honey from Honey Pacifica, make sure it's advertized as "cold packed." They also have their "regular" honeys heated up to 100°F, which is noted here: http://www.hotfrog.com/Companies/Honey-Pacifica/Unfiltered-Honey-Natural-Honey-Unprocessed-Honey-Best-Honey-1265146 (http://www.hotfrog.com/Companies/Honey-Pacifica/Unfiltered-Honey-Natural-Honey-Unprocessed-Honey-Best-Honey-1265146)

Here is a list of honeys that have been claimed to be unheated, aka cold-packed (I'm not saying that they necessarily are; I think all are American):

Really Raw
Honey Pacifica
Sweet William of Earlville Raw Honey
Pureliving Honey (claimed to be both unheated and unsmoked http://www.sleepingbearfarms.com/shop/honey/raw-honey?gclid=CO3Z6oaxm8MCFfLm7Aodu2AADQ (http://www.sleepingbearfarms.com/shop/honey/raw-honey?gclid=CO3Z6oaxm8MCFfLm7Aodu2AADQ))
YS Organic
Honey Garden Apiaries
Honey in the Rough
Volcano Island Honey Company
San Marcos Farms
Bill's Bees
Bill McDonough & Family
Famous Questa Honey
Heavenly Organics
Stakich
Champlain Valley Apiaries (Vermont)
Honey Gardens Apitherapy (Vermont)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: eveheart on January 18, 2015, 02:32:25 am
Another possibility is to visit the beekeepers' guild in your area (the one in my area meets once a month). You can talk to various beekeepers in your area and find the ones who will hand-pack their honey for you instead of using a heated centrifuge.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on January 18, 2015, 03:10:52 am
Actually I am not aware of anyone in our club using a heated centrifuge.

Here is a forum to ask about local beeks:

http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php (http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Joy2012 on January 19, 2015, 12:57:10 pm
I have always wondered how raw honey is kept clean during the packing process.  Does anyone know about the sanitary aspect of gathering/packing honey?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: van on January 19, 2015, 01:34:21 pm
If they have harvested the honey at the right time (letting the bees drive off the excess water from the nectar with their wings by fanning it) then really nothing will live in honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: jessica on January 19, 2015, 10:52:09 pm
Basically just by using clean tools in a clean environment.  Most often I have seen small time bee keepers harvest with stainless steel knives, bowls, strainers and sometimes centrifuge and store in large, covered stainless steel vats with a spigot on the bottom,( if you are lucky, some also store in plastic buckets and containers). Or cut comb directly into containers for sale.  Pure honey from healthy bees  is naturally antimirobial.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: Joy2012 on January 20, 2015, 10:49:47 am
Thanks. Now I feel much better about eating honey.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on January 28, 2015, 07:24:43 am
Ive been trying out the Heavenly Organics Himalayan Honey Acia. It has given me a sore/course/rough throat. i sound like im loosing my voice. Anyone else experience something similar with this brand, or any other?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 28, 2015, 09:24:17 am
I'm not a fan of acacia honey, but I don't recall getting a sore throat from that brand, though I have gotten throat irritation from certain other honeys.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on January 29, 2015, 09:27:22 pm
Could the burning/soar throat feeling we get from raw honey be an enzyme effect? Similar to eating to much pineapple?

http://www.livestrong.com/article/301343-foods-with-naturally-occurring-digestive-enzymes/#page=2 (http://www.livestrong.com/article/301343-foods-with-naturally-occurring-digestive-enzymes/#page=2)

It would be interesting to find out, and help strengthen AVs raw honey claims.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: ciervo-chaman on May 26, 2015, 07:41:25 am
i have found this note on a study about enzyme pills:

"Swallow amylase/lipase/protease delayed-release capsules whole with enough liquid to swallow it completely. Do not break, crush, chew, or hold amylase/lipase/protease delayed-release capsules in your mouth before swallowing. Doing so may increase the risk of mouth or tongue irritation from amylase/lipase/protease delayed-release capsules. Follow with a glass of water or juice. Contact your doctor if you experience mouth or tongue irritation while taking amylase/lipase/protease delayed-release capsules."


http://www.drugs.com/cdi/amylase-lipase-protease-delayed-release-capsules.html (http://www.drugs.com/cdi/amylase-lipase-protease-delayed-release-capsules.html)


what do you think, a tribe called paleo?

i think you are right with your assertion on tongue burn being due to enzyme.

it can be a good experiment to have some raw honey, and then, heat a teaspoon, and see if it still burns the tongue or mouth. i don't know if 100% of enzymes are destroyed by heat, but, they suposedly do when lightly heated.
same with fruits high in enzymes like pinneaple, mango, papaya (do you know any else?)
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on May 27, 2015, 02:39:54 pm
Im almost positive it is the enzymes in honey that caused that reaction.

Ive had similar effects with mango and pineapple. Too much pineapple will burn my lips and make my teeth hurt! mangos have a similar effect but not nearly as intense.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 29, 2015, 10:30:14 am
Pineapple and some unfermented honeys cause the most burning/itching for me, or at least used to. Pine nuts too. I get it mostly on the roof of my mouth, the back of my throat and the sides of my tongue. I seem to get less of the burning these days, so I occasionally have a small amount of fresh pineapple. I don't get it from mango, at least not that I notice. I love atulfo mangoes.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: A_Tribe_Called_Paleo on June 01, 2015, 03:24:21 am
It only happens if the mango is unripe. Which i try to avoid as much as possible. i feel all fruit should be eaten ripe, and sweet as possible.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 01, 2015, 04:03:15 am
Not all fruits are climacteric (continue to ripen after picking). With non-climacteric fruits (such as blackberries, raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, watermelons, cherries, grapes, grapefruit, lemons and limes), the general rule is the fresher, the better.

I tried testing climacteric fruits ripened very thoroughly, at the suggestion of raw vegans who seemed to know their fruits, but found that I actually had worse results that way with some and the safest course for me seemed to be to return to mostly minimizing intake of certain fruits like bananas and limit myself to wild berries and small amounts of other fruits. Then I learned from fellow RPD member MuhammadSunshine about prebiotics like resistant starch. I was "resistant" ;) to the info he shared at first, but eventually put it to the test and found that my experience has turned out to be the opposite of the standard advice when it comes to starchy fruit, such as bananas and plantains--that I have better blood glucose and less carb intolerance symptoms when I eat more of my fruits/carbs in less-ripened resistant form (I still like my fresh figs thoroughly ripe, though, and just limit my intake :)
 ). I wrote about it in resistant starch threads. Of course, YMMV and I'm not telling you what to do. Also, it hasn't been a cure-all panacea for me. I continue to learn and it's a work in progress for me.

And I actually got some of that annoying chapped lower lip (though no burning) after eating a mango today. It was less ripe than most I've had, so I'll keep your experience in mind, in case it's related (and I'm not certain that it was the mango that caused it). I know I have sometimes seemed to react to the acidity in certain foods and wonder if that could be a factor for me in less-ripe mango, though it wouldn't seem to explain why I handle lemons better than most fruits. It can be puzzling.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: raw-al on June 01, 2015, 07:06:12 am
Not all fruits are climacteric (continue to ripen after picking). With non-climacteric fruits (such as blackberries, raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, watermelons, cherries, grapes, grapefruit, lemons and limes), the general rule is the fresher, the better.
Thanks, I didn't know that. Makes sense tho.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: dariorpl on June 01, 2015, 08:56:10 am
Not all fruits are climacteric (continue to ripen after picking). With non-climacteric fruits (such as blackberries, raspberries, blueberries, strawberries, watermelons, cherries, grapes, grapefruit, lemons and limes), the general rule is the fresher, the better.

I'm not sure about the other fruits you named, but the lemons I know absolutely do ripen. I always allow them to ripen because that way they have more juice, and the juice seems to be more sweet, and less starchy, or something. The acidity either stays the same or goes up when ripe. Maybe it depends on the variety of lemon? Or maybe the ones you get are always picked ripe?

I think cherries may ripen after picked, too. I like them unripe because they're tart, and if ripe they become too sweet and lose their acidity. I could be wrong about this though, because I'm not sure if I ever allowed them to ripen in the counter after buying them. I can feast on the acidic type, unripe cherries, but once they become too sweet, I can only have a handful or two at a time.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: eveheart on June 01, 2015, 09:15:17 am
Lemons do ripen further after picking, but tree-ripened lemons are sweeter than off-tree ripeners. Probably has something to do with brix, which would suggest that off-tree lemons are not "truly" ripe, even if they turn from green to yellow. OTOH, since lemons are usually used in small quantities to make other foods tart, off-tree ripening has good culinary value.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: dariorpl on June 01, 2015, 09:28:29 am
Yeah. I use lemons for the acidity.

I don't seem to remember lemons requiring ripening until relatively recently. Maybe it's a new development because of what you said.

But I'm pretty sure they yield more juice when they go yellow and have a little give to the touch.

And when green and hard, the juice is more white, and tastes worse, I think it has more starch or something.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: PaleoPhil on June 01, 2015, 07:05:56 pm
I'm not sure about the other fruits you named, but the lemons I know absolutely do ripen.
You don't have to take my word for it, if you check sources you'll find that lemons and cherries are listed as nonclimacteric and as not truly ripening after harvest. Here's an example:

"Most nonclimacteric and some climacteric products do not ripen after harvest, such as apples, berries, cherries, grapefruit, grapes, lemons, limes, oranges, strawberries, tangerines, and watermelon In nonclimacteric commodities, quality is optimal at harvest." (Source: Minimally Processed Refrigerated Fruits & Vegetables, edited by Robert C. Wiley, Springer Science & Business Media, Dec 6, 2012)

Lemons and cherries and other nonclimacteric fruits do soften and become less tart after picking, but that's reportedly not necessarily the same as true ripening.

I prefer fresher lemons. The lemons I buy are yellow and tasty at the time of purchase and to me get mushy and bland over time. I like tartness, so that may help explain our different preferences.

It puzzled me that the acidity of lemons never seemed to give me as much problems as orange juice. Perhaps that's because OJ is normally pasteurized and stored, whereas lemons are a raw whole fruit and fresher. I did notice that oranges and fresh-squeezed OJ were not as much of a problem for me either. I'm not a big fan of oranges, though, unfortunately. Maybe I got used to the strong flavor of OJ in my youth so that whole oranges seem bland in comparison.
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: dariorpl on June 02, 2015, 02:03:42 am
Packaged orange juice, or any other packaged juice is always pasteurized. Stay away from it like the plague!
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: political atheist on February 26, 2016, 07:53:45 pm
anybody knows a UK source of TRULY never heated honey?
Title: Re: Raw Unheated Honey
Post by: TylerDurden on February 28, 2016, 04:21:22 pm
anybody knows a UK source of TRULY never heated honey?
It has been 5 years since I left the UK, but I remember that one really nice guy used to sell raw honey, if specially asked. You might find him if you contact http://www.lfm.org.uk (http://www.lfm.org.uk) and ask there. He used to attend the Islington farmers' market sometimes, among others.

Simple googling shows that the UK raw honey market has really grown since 5 years ago.

Just buy raw honeycomb(heather is best), though. Raw honeycomb is easy to obtain, more natural than raw liquid honey and tastier, imo.