Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: Stig of the Dump on January 20, 2010, 01:32:08 am
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Hello everyone. I'm had a sea change in my diet in the last few weeks - all driven from within.
And now one of those jolts of recognition in the last few days about Paleo, and now Raw Paleo. (I've had a long history of alternative and spiritual diets, but I even bore myself to think about it, so I won't go there for now.)
I just ate three raw lamb chops from a supermarket, and they tasted great. (My heroic avatar is more a target than current reality. :-D)
Not sure how much I'll post - I want to read a lot at the moment rather than talk. But thanks for the great site.
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Hi, no real need to post here, but of course if you want to we always like to hear how things go when anyone transitions to raw. Lots of info here, especially lately, seems we are all pretty active. Questions are always answered. Thanks for saying hi.
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Thanks van. (I'm sure I won't be able to resist piping up if I get drawn in.)
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One quick technical forum question for anyone that knows the answer. My e-mail address is being given out when I look myself up as a member online. (Some members show e-mails; some don't. I have the "Hide e-mail address from public" box ticked of the "Account related settings" section of the "Profile", but I am showing an e-mail anyway.)
I don't really want my personal e-mail address given out on the web, so for now I've changed it to a throwaway anti-spam e-mail. Does anyone know how to hide the e-mail address (so I can return it my real address), as I can't find the correct setting?
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Your email is listed as "hidden" when I click on your profile. I believe it shows at all times when you view your own profile.
Edit: And welcome to the forum. ;)
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Thanks - I worry about those sort of things too much (I think I have post traumatic spam disorder.)
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Van said you like to hear changeover stories, and I do have few questions, so I thought I would write.
(I seem to be on an information overload at the moment, having just read the http://www.fast-5.com/ (http://www.fast-5.com/) and http://www.warriordiet.com/ (http://www.warriordiet.com/) websites. Anyway, the upshot is that today I am waiting until 5pm to eat.)
Just to give a bit of background, I have been seven years cooked vegan in the distant past, then a wide variety of "doing what I liked", long extended fasts, and half-hearted attempts at raw vegan and fruitarian.
Basically I found the long fasts really cleaned me out and rejuvenated me (I'm 45 but look very young, vibrant and healthy - strangers always refer to me in the 3rd person as 'that young man'), but whenever I tried to follow it up with a long-term plan of eating 100% RV/fruitarian, it quickly came to nothing, and I started joining in normal food again whenever socially possible.
I got into a cycle of eating pretty much RV and mini-fasts in the week, and then any old crud (plus drinking) at the weekends. I knew it was unhealthy, but the raw veg/fruit was just too idealistic, and more than the anti-social side of it, it just left me unsatisfied.
I stopped drinking (I haven't missed it - part of why I wanted to stop was hating the taste) and found a paleo book a few weeks back and went on to cooked paleo - meat, veg and fruit. This tasted great and was very satisfying - I cut out all the junk, even socially, bar the odd micro-slip.
(I had been pretty much 'veggie' and had always believed the old Natural Hygiene arguments about us sharing so many bodily characteristics with chimps and orangutans, that we must be fruitarians. Suddenly a new part of my brain lit up. What makes us different from chimps and orangutans? Think of our graceful, athletic, high speed bodies, our throwing abilities, our ability to work in groups hunting and fighting, how wonderfully people can craft tools, can throw javelins, stones, and think of that shadow thrill of ganging up on something and defeating it, even exulting in cruelty/victory, that we all feel (even as horror of it), but civilisation hates to acknowledge, and suddenly I knew, of course, our difference is that we are tool-using, predator apes - meat eaters.)
But I started to notice I would get the sweats after meals. I remembered a raw food term: leukocytosis - the body's white cell reaction to cooked food. It suddenly struck me that I couldn't square cooked paleo with what I knew. I looked up raw paleo - and that's why I'm here.
Anyway, that bit of background already makes this post too long. But I have some questions about what's happening to me in my changeover:
Last night I ate some raw venison steaks from a supermarket (they tasted fantastic - no worries there), with a tomato and some lettuce and a couple of mushrooms, all raw. Then I ate some (defrosted) frozen wild, dark red mixed berries. Pretty quickly I got a bit of indigestion, had a few bowel movements and felt queasy and still feel queasy today (unusual for me). I also felt that fatty taste of meat in my mouth, and couldn't really sleep well (also unusual). My nose became blocked, and still is pretty stuffy. (But of course, no sweats.)
In the morning I had many more bowel movements and a pinkish hue to my urine. I don't feel like I want to eat meat tonight.
I'm not sure I'm ready for the 100% meat option some on here seem to use - I still like my fruits/berries, nuts, and I sort of crave veg (but only when it's cooked).
How do you go about combining raw meat with other foods? On different days? Or what does everyone think of another book about timing food ("The Evolution Diet") which suggests paleo man grazed on nuts, berries and leaves whilst hunting, then had one big protein feast/blow-out at the end of the day?
It's early days for me - I'm not active enough yet either - just walking an hour or two every day - and that has to change too (strenuous activity didn't chime too well with fruit and fasting). Undoubtedly this is just normal disequilibria/detox, but any comments, questions or feedback would be most welcome.
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I also ate lots of fruits & veg, nearly vegetarian, also broke into sweats after eating (which gradually increased to every few hours as blood sugar regulation went haywire)
Also had digestive problems transitioning to a fatty protein based diet, including frequent bowel movements (I attribute to poor digestion/assimilation of fat & protein)
Pink urine seems concerning, maybe you ate too much protein right away? Stressed your kidneys?
Go slow. It's taken me about a year to transition (not counting the few months I just coasted)
Welcome and best wishes
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I stopped drinking (I haven't missed it - part of why I wanted to stop was hating the taste) and found a paleo book a few weeks back and went on to cooked paleo - meat, veg and fruit.
None of the veg and fruit available are paleo, raw or cooked.
You probably found the Cordain diet, he calls it paleolithic but he is a troll.
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Thanks livingthelife, I will take it slow. It is very useful to know that the bowel movement problem (which is new to me) might be related to fat absorbtion/assimilation, and that it is probably transitional. (I'm hopeful that the pink urine (only faintly pink, but visible on tissue paper) was just all the red fruit and maybe the fact that I ate a couple of beetroot the day before, although I've never had it before. I even wondered if it was the vension which was incredibly dark red?)
William, the book I got first was "Human Evolution Diet and Health: The Case for Palaeolithic Nutition" by Mark Hines, but I had barely begun it before I changed my diet, and haven't got more than about 20 pages into it. Then I read this web primer http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html (http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html) which was very clear, although not raw. (I have indeed bought the Cordain book with a bunch of others, but I always take everything with a pinch of salt. I always find useful nuggets in the most ridiculous books, if I feel intuitively motivated to read them.)
Did you mean there are no remaining similar paleolithic fruit and veg, or that paleolithic people never ate them?
If the first, I know what you mean. I suppose it's even true of animals. (Although I suppose at least pheasants, rabbits and deer, etc. are pretty similar to those we would have hunted in the past, even if cows and sheep might be the equivalent of big yellow bananas and an iceberg lettuce.)
As to how much wild fruit and veg cavemen ate, I'm open to persuasion. I have lots to learn. I know personally I really enjoy wild blackberries and hazelnuts, but as to veg, although I love it cooked, there has never been a dark green leaf I have ever wanted to chew raw. (But I guess dogs chew grass, so maybe the urge will come naturally if it's necessary.)
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beetroot
That very well could be the cause
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:D That's what you call a glaring omission in my previous post - but it was long enough already!
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Great to see more UKers here on rawpaleoforum!
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;D
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Incidentally, many RVAFers find raw nuts and raw mushrooms increasingly unappealing re issues re digestion/antinutrients. Best to avoid them entirely, IMO.
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Thanks - I've thought of that with nuts. It's basically something that 'wants' to be a tree and doesn't want to be eaten - it can't run away so being inedible seems the obvious choice. (Mushrooms of course just want to be themselves. :lol:)
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William, the book I got first was "Human Evolution Diet and Health: The Case for Palaeolithic Nutition" by Mark Hines, but I had barely begun it before I changed my diet, and haven't got more than about 20 pages into it. Then I read this web primer http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html (http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html) which was very clear, although not raw. (I have indeed bought the Cordain book with a bunch of others, but I always take everything with a pinch of salt. I always find useful nuggets in the most ridiculous books, if I feel intuitively motivated to read them.)
That's how I read, and with the same result.
Did you mean there are no remaining similar paleolithic fruit and veg, or that paleolithic people never ate them?
Paleolithic people never ate them. One of our members tried, and found them inedible - probably loaded with anti-nutrients. I've eaten chokecherries, which are supposed to be a paleo fruit, and enjoyed a few, but nobody would consider them food, or even part of a meal.
As to how much wild fruit and veg cavemen ate, I'm open to persuasion. I have lots to learn. I know personally I really enjoy wild blackberries and hazelnuts, but as to veg, although I love it cooked, there has never been a dark green leaf I have ever wanted to chew raw. (But I guess dogs chew grass, so maybe the urge will come naturally if it's necessary.)
None, according to the comparative analysis of the bones of paleoman and wild African lions. They are chemically identical, and we know what lions eat.
Wild blueberries are supposed to be paleo, and I have ~10 pounds in my freezer and no urge to eat them. That must mean that I've escaped the carbohydrate addiction.
Please keep in mind when you read this forum that many of the members (and at least one moderator) are addicts; some know it, some are in denial. Their posts reflect this.
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I have yet to find what paleolithic fruits really are or where they were. I'm also very curious to find out what fruits paleo man ate. Aren't a good number of ape species frugivores? There must be plenty of high calorie fruits in the jungle that are edible. I think the jackfruit is one but surely there are others. Maybe paleo man ate these?
Outside of berries, are there any fruits of today that were found in paleo times? Todays fruits have no where near the same nutrient composition as paleo fruits. But the meat of today is probably similarly composed to how it was back then. I'd guess berries have probably been modified as well.
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None, according to the comparative analysis of the bones of paleoman and wild African lions. They are chemically identical, and we know what lions eat.
That is a very interesting fact.
Wild blueberries are supposed to be paleo, and I have ~10 pounds in my freezer and no urge to eat them. That must mean that I've escaped the carbohydrate addiction.
Please keep in mind when you read this forum that many of the members (and at least one moderator) are addicts; some know it, some are in denial. Their posts reflect this.
I'm new and innocent of all adult struggle. ;D
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Outside of berries, are there any fruits of today that were found in paleo times? Todays fruits have no where near the same nutrient composition as paleo fruits. But the meat of today is probably similarly composed to how it was back then. I'd guess berries have probably been modified as well.
Blackberries (bramble bushes in the UK) are generally considered a weed nowadays, apart from cultivated varieties. I can't imagine they have been tampered with since pre-Roman times, and before that we were in grass skirts covered in blue wode according to my Latin teacher, but perhaps people deliberately used to spread the seed (and select tastier ones to do so). Even so, any place you would spread it to would be an impenetrable, fruitless bramble patch for most of the year.
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Please keep in mind when you read this forum that many of the members (and at least one moderator) are addicts; some know it, some are in denial. Their posts reflect this.
carb addicts?
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Hi! and Welcome!
Did the pinkish hue to your urine go away?? That's concerning!
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The pink hue was almost definitely as a result of the beets. I don't recall what the trigger is but they cause some people to get a reddish/pinkish tint to the urine and some get it in the stool. Maybe your body is handling them differently now. :)
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carb addicts?
Yes.
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Hi! and Welcome!
Did the pinkish hue to your urine go away?? That's concerning!
I think so - yes, I just tested it on a bit of paper. (I thought it might be all the red food - I'm very healthy generally, so it surprised me to see it.) I've never had kidney problems, but during a very long fast I did in Hawaii, my kidney threw off casts (a sign of improving kidney health in such circumstances.)
I feel much better - I had raw beef last night - lovely stuff. (I can't post more now as I have to go out to London all day. Bye.)
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You have to watch guys like william and me, for we're zero carb guys. In my opinion no need to jump on that bus right away, for it's plagued with theories and speculation. My best advice for you it definately don't mix your meat with veggies or fruits, just fat. When eating carbs like fruits they can spike insulin responses and cause cravings. Best to eat them alone and when hungry as opposed to bored. Eating fruit after exercise lessens the blood sugar or insulin effect, and eating them in moderation. Fruits like berries are also low glycemic and have higher ratios of vitamins/mineral. Use them as a treat, rather than a staple. You also might try having fruit in the morning when hungry, and then having two smaller meat and fat meals when hungry. This should be a little easier on the digestive system. Charles on the zero carb site had good advise, don't eat your protein meal until you feel hungry enough to eat a whole steak. The thought is that if you are really truly hungry, your body will most likely digest it fine, unless you over eat.
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That is a very interesting fact.I'm new and innocent of all adult struggle. ;D
It's not a fact just mindless and dishonest propaganda. There are plenty of studies showing fruit/veg consumption throughout the Palaeolithic era(eg:-
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u386383180288602/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC470712/
The only reason why there has been a focus on meats in palaeo studies was because plant-remains do not survive as well as bones, the latter easily fossilising. However as technology has increased, there is more and more evidence to show that plants were indeed consumed in palaeo times.
Re blackberries:- there are quite a number of blackberry bushes in my area in London, near train-stations etc.. Sadly, while they often have lots of blackberries, I dare not touch them because those bushes are constantly being used by disgusting people as a sort of public toilet. The only blakcberry bush I trust is the fenced-in one within the men's swimming pond at Hampstead Heath.
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It's not a fact just mindless and dishonest propaganda. There are plenty of studies showing fruit/veg consumption throughout the Palaeolithic era(eg:-
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u386383180288602/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC470712/
Do you have memberships to all these journals and have access to all the full studies? The rest of this study is very important but heres the most interesting part
The isotpic evidence from Middle and Upper Paleolithic human skeletons recurrently indicate individuals who derived the majority oftheir protein from animal sources(Bocherens 2009; Richards, 2009). That much can be confidently inferred from the isotopic data,although its precision does not really allow the size of that majority to be closely ascertained. If it were reasonably high, as the balance of broader palaeoecological evidence might suggest, then very many of the nutritional requirements would be met by consuming sizeable quantities of fresh meat and associated tissues. The dietary needs of non-meat component are notso much related to quality as to bulk, and an important function of the bulk is to dilute the nitrogen load within the diet, bringing it below toxic levels. Among living communities, that dilution is effected by consuming in reasonable quantities some combination of fat and plant foods.
So, we have evidence that most of the protein we got was from animals, though they don't mention here what the isotopic evidence is exactly, I've seen it mentioned in other papers and paleo bones, as William said, were similarly composed of those of lions.
Now, they turn to speculation on to whether the rest, "bulk" of the diet comes from either fat or vegetation. So the bulk apparently is the energy that fuels the animal and cannot be directly measured in the bones like the protein can.
In the next paragraph, the author states that the inuit who eat 96-99% meat get their bulk and thus "dilute" their nitrogen intake by eating large amount of fat from whales or caribou and get almost nothing from plants.
I assume the rest of the paper is proposing that we get our bulk, energy, from plants not the animal fat like the inuit. They must be suggesting that we were thought to have eaten lean meat for protein and plants for energy.
This of course makes very little sense and assumes after we have killed or found an animal that we would have eaten just the lean parts and left the fattier parts for others and then continued searching for plants to fill in our energy requirement.
The paper refers to diluting the nitrogen content several times. Obviously yes we know we must not eat nothing but lean meat and protein is never really meant to be more than 20-30% of our diet anyways. Thanks for the experiment redfulcrum
I would like to read the rest and see how the authors explain leaving the fat on the animal in search of plants to provide energy??? This is model for some paleo diets now. Eat lean meat and lots of plants. I see no way of this happening.
So, even though our bones show overwhelming stable isotopic evidence that we got most (perhaps all) our protein from animals its still possible and suggested here that we ate just the lean, left the fat and ate plants instead for energy.
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Heres another paper that summarizes carbon and nitrogen isotopic values for 36 different European individuals found in the upper paleolithic era. The first page does not give estimates for what percent of the diet was animal protein like others do but it says that a suprising amount of marine protein was found.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/n2871q7u63170045/
Below is a link to a review of a book titled, "The Evolution of Hominin Diets: Integrating Approaches to the Study of Paleolithic Subsistence"
The book is 300 pages, $129 and came out in 2009.
http://www.paleoanthro.org/journal/content/PA20090276.pdf
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Isotopic analysis is rather flawed, I'm afraid. For example, there was that study of Neanderthal bones which claimed that Neanderthals ate an all-meat diet consisting mostly of mammoth-meat, but subsequent studies showed that the Neanderthals did indeed eat a variety of plant food as well, and also ate small game.
As for membership, I'm annoyed at having to spend 30 dollars or more per subscription just to get 1 interesting article so I don't bother. It's the most frustrating thing that most serious palaeo-oriented articles require subscriptions.
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Raw meats & fats dont effect the colour of your pee or poop, apart from making your stools black & pee lighter from high levels of nutrition
The more clear your pee, the healthier you are
Black poop is super health, lighter shades not so good health
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I would heavily disagree with that comment. For one thing, when I was in really bad health pre-rawpalaeodiet, my stools were coal-black and I had massive constipation among a 100 other health-problems. Black stools I think are attributed to blood in the stools. At any rate, I am now much healthier and my stools are a simple brown.
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Hello everyone. I'm had a sea change in my diet in the last few weeks - all driven from within.
And now one of those jolts of recognition in the last few days about Paleo, and now Raw Paleo. (I've had a long history of alternative and spiritual diets, but I even bore myself to think about it, so I won't go there for now.)
I just ate three raw lamb chops from a supermarket, and they tasted great. (My heroic avatar is more a target than current reality. :-D)
Not sure how much I'll post - I want to read a lot at the moment rather than talk. But thanks for the great site.
Hello hello hello....
Surprising you just started on raw paleo and you think raw meat tastes great.
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It's not a fact just mindless and dishonest propaganda.
I thought I should give the benefit of the doubt, and from the explanations beneath I can see the whole picture - most or virtually all protein from meat; carbs and fats less certain.
Here's my take on it, from a purely common sense point of view (how I would operate in similar conditions).
There certainly are some very tasty berries and leaves knocking around, and I imagine I would have nibbled and grazed on these as I wondered around hunting for game.
By the end of the day hopefully we'd have caught something, and knocked up a pure meat meal where I would have without doubt eaten all the fat and anything edible, as it is all so tasty.
(I know of at least one more scientific reason that indicates we eat plants and fruits. Fruits are 'asking' to be picked (to use animals to spread seeds) so they attract with bright colours. Pure carnivores have vision sensitised to movement and don't have great colour acuity as they don't need to notice brightly coloured fruits. But we do notice them, and pick and eat intuitively.)
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Hello hello hello....
Surprising you just started on raw paleo and you think raw meat tastes great.
I've done a lot of fasting, so I'm pretty pure when it comes to taste - just short of nutrients I guess.
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(I know of at least one more scientific reason that indicates we eat plants and fruits. Fruits are 'asking' to be picked (to use animals to spread seeds) so they attract with bright colours. Pure carnivores have vision sensitised to movement and don't have great colour acuity as they don't need to notice brightly coloured fruits. But we do notice them, and pick and eat intuitively.)
All the guys who are colorblind, are they possibly a mutation to be obligate carnivore? Or maybe we all were colorblind, but developed colorsight at a time it made sense to eat fruit? Newborns don't usually see well yet, no fruit for them!
Anyway, thank you for posting that. I have very good colorsight. This wmight mean I should eat (some) fruit.
I hope you're enjoying it here, Stip of the Dump.
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The carnivores are very loud in this forum. Trust me, there are many omnivores as well.
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All the guys who are colorblind, are they possibly a mutation to be obligate carnivore? Or maybe we all were colorblind, but developed colorsight at a time it made sense to eat fruit? Newborns don't usually see well yet, no fruit for them!
Anyway, thank you for posting that. I have very good colorsight. This wmight mean I should eat (some) fruit.
I hope you're enjoying it here, Stip of the Dump.
Thanks. Thinking about it, you could argue that our colour acuity is just a throwback to our frugivore ancestry, which might have lead to it dropping away (it has a cost, obviously) and increasing colour blindness.
Thanks for all the welcomes. It's nice to have somewhere to chat about this stuff as it is all zinging around in my mind. (I normally frequent very dry futurist, economic and financial forums, where eating raw meat could be discussed OT with 99.9% non-believers. I can hear them all now: "You'll die of food poisoning!")
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The carnivores are very loud in this forum. Trust me, there are many omnivores as well.
It's all that red meat. ;D
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You have to watch guys like william and me, for we're zero carb guys. In my opinion no need to jump on that bus right away, for it's plagued with theories and speculation. My best advice for you it definately don't mix your meat with veggies or fruits, just fat. When eating carbs like fruits they can spike insulin responses and cause cravings. Best to eat them alone and when hungry as opposed to bored. Eating fruit after exercise lessens the blood sugar or insulin effect, and eating them in moderation. Fruits like berries are also low glycemic and have higher ratios of vitamins/mineral. Use them as a treat, rather than a staple. You also might try having fruit in the morning when hungry, and then having two smaller meat and fat meals when hungry. This should be a little easier on the digestive system. Charles on the zero carb site had good advise, don't eat your protein meal until you feel hungry enough to eat a whole steak. The thought is that if you are really truly hungry, your body will most likely digest it fine, unless you over eat.
Thanks - that's really useful advice as I'm trying to work out an eating schedule.
(I sort of knew from RV not to mix the meat with fruit and veg, but I didn't buy enough meat and felt hungry at the end, and the berries were there, so I decided to be foolish. That's why I was queasy I think. Next time I'll get a big leg of something so I don't run out.)
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My schedule/synthesis at the moment is fast until 5pm, and specifically do some exercise before 5pm. Then some carbs at 5pm - salad some days, fruit other days, blended up "energy soup" (avocado, apple, coconut, beetroot and greens) other days, chosen by what I have a taste for. Then about two hours before bed (8-9-ish), a big pure meat/animal fat meal until stuffed, then go to sleep on the tryptophan post-feast euphoric snooze.
(This is a bit idealistic, as I love going out to a cafe for salad (and sometimes barely poached eggs) at breakfast to read the paper most days, and just joining in with whatever is going on at weekends. But I have fasted today, and let's see. My latest method is repeated failure, repeated restarting and gradual improvement. It is working.)
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(I sort of knew from RV not to mix the meat with fruit and veg, but I didn't buy enough meat and felt hungry at the end, and the berries were there, so I decided to be foolish. That's why I was queasy I think. Next time I'll get a big leg of something so I don't run out.)
I think acutaq is raw berries, raw blubber and raw caribou served as a dessert ice cream of sorts. Some primal dieters mix some fruit with their white meat. Some people make pemmican with berries, but some argue dried meat and melted fat, let alone dried berries are not raw. I'm not saying you should mix, just that there may be other ways that work for some rawist people.
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My schedule/synthesis at the moment is fast until 5pm, and specifically do some exercise before 5pm. Then some carbs at 5pm - salad some days, fruit other days, blended up "energy soup" (avocado, apple, coconut, beetroot and greens) other days, chosen by what I have a taste for. Then about two hours before bed (8-9-ish), a big pure meat/animal fat meal until stuffed, then go to sleep on the tryptophan post-feast euphoric snooze.
(This is a bit idealistic, as I love going out to a cafe for salad (and sometimes poached eggs) at breakfast to read the paper most days, and just joining in with whatever is going on at weekends. But I have fasted today, and let's see. My latest method is repeated failure, repeated restarting and gradual improvement. It is working.)
Personally, I find my sleep is a lot better if I don't eat much within 3-5 hours of bedtime. I also find that I feel better the next day, as well.
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I have experienced that too - late meals and bags under the eyes the next day.
I normally have my day the other way round, with breakfast in the morning, the big meal at about 2-3pm then nothing else, but I was reading yet another book on the train "The Evolution Diet" and he was suggesting eating the main, pure (mono?) protein meal an hour before sleep, so I thought I'd give it a try.
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Isotopic analysis is rather flawed, I'm afraid. For example, there was that study of Neanderthal bones which claimed that Neanderthals ate an all-meat diet consisting mostly of mammoth-meat, but subsequent studies showed that the Neanderthals did indeed eat a variety of plant food as well, and also ate small game.
As for membership, I'm annoyed at having to spend 30 dollars or more per subscription just to get 1 interesting article so I don't bother. It's the most frustrating thing that most serious palaeo-oriented articles require subscriptions.
How is isotopic analysis flawed? Isn't it used in numerous studies and don't they all report pretty much the same thing that paleo man's bones were carnivorous? Are they all wrong?
The article you linked did not say that the isotopic analysis was wrong only that the fuel (either carbohydrate or fat) was provided by some plant consomption. It doesn't say how much in that one page but it strongly implies that we indeed would not eat the fat from animals and instead look for carbohydrate in vegetation. This seems highly improbable to me and without the rest of the paper we can't really tell how they planned on convincing us so.
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How is isotopic analysis flawed? Isn't it used in numerous studies and don't they all report pretty much the same thing that paleo man's bones were carnivorous? Are they all wrong?
The article you linked did not say that the isotopic analysis was wrong only that the fuel (either carbohydrate or fat) was provided by some plant consomption. It doesn't say how much in that one page but it strongly implies that we indeed would not eat the fat from animals and instead look for carbohydrate in vegetation. This seems highly improbable to me and without the rest of the paper we can't really tell how they planned on convincing us so.
It's too complicated to get into here, but isotopic analysis is apparently not advanced enough to distinguish between different types of foods so the results can depend on the interpretation of a scientist rather than actual data. As regards the studies done on the Neanderthals, 1 major study doing isotopic analysis claimed that Neanderthals ate only meats and mostly mammoth at that, a more advanced one with more modern techniques then showed that the Neanderthals in fact ate a variety of plant foods as well, and also ate smaller game (and seafood in some areas) and not just mainly mammoths.
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All the guys who are colorblind, are they possibly a mutation to be obligate carnivore?
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Interesting speculation, and by coincidence I'm color blind and seem to do best on an obligate carnivore diet, or nearly so. However, canids eat berries despite being color blind, so I think color blindness suggests that fruits may not be a necessary food for survival of species with high rates of color blindness, but not that they never eat fruits.
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Interesting speculation, and by coincidence I'm color blind and seem to do best on an obligate carnivore diet, or nearly so. However, canids eat berries despite being color blind, so I think color blindness suggests that fruits may not be a necessary food for survival of species with high rates of color blindness, but not that they never eat fruits.
I'm curious as to what it means to be colour-blind. Do you simply view the colours you don't perceive as "grey" or some other colour? And are there any humans only able to see black/white and grey like some wild species?
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I'm curious as to what it means to be colour-blind. Do you simply view the colours you don't perceive as "grey" or some other colour? And are there any humans only able to see black/white and grey like some wild species?
Regular red-green color-blindness just means you don't distinguish colors as well, nor do you perceive them like most people do. True color-blindness is incredibly rare in humans, but it does occur.
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I'm curious as to what it means to be colour-blind. Do you simply view the colours you don't perceive as "grey" or some other colour?
It's much more complicated than that. There are different types of color blindness.
I have a strong protan color vision defect so I tend to confuse red with green and blue-green. On the test at http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html I scored only A and I correctly. This page also shows how a color wheel looks like to some severely colorblind people.
I do have difficulty seeing some wild berries in the grass and on bushes, especially reddish or purplish berries on green plants. My mother or sister will say "The berries on that bush/plant are coming along nicely," but I cannot see them (which tends to frustrate my mother ha ha :) "They're right here, can't you see them?" hee hee). If survival depended on wild berries I would be in some deep doo. This is yet another reason why there is no place for people like me in a vegan/vegetarian world. I seem to be a living rebuke to their world view. I not only appear to do much better on a meat-heavy diet than a plant-heavy one, I have difficulty even seeing many of the plants that vegans/vegetarians think were so essential for our ancestors to find, gather and eat.
There is a hypothesis that color blindness survived because it enabled grassland hunters to distinguish camouflaged khaki-colored animal from the slightly-different-colored khaki grass it is hiding in:
"About 6-8% of humans today are red-green color blind. Most of them are men. This X-linked inherited condition known as deuteranomaly is due to opsin pigments that are normally sensitive to green light behaving more like the red-sensitive ones. This results in a difficulty in distinguishing between colors in the red and green wavelength ranges. However, people with this condition are at an advantage in differentiating slight variations in khaki colors. This could have been a benefit in the dry grassland environments of East and South Africa where humans first evolved." (PRIMATE COLOR VISION, ttp://anthro.palomar.edu/primate/color.htm)
It's interesting that color blindness mostly occurs in men--traditionally the hunters for whom color vision would be less important than for gathering females. Color vision deficient people also have a tendency to better night vision. This would presumably be an advantage for hunting or warring at dusk and night. (Ishihara Color Blindness Test, http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html)
However, I haven't seen any evidence that color blindness was present in the Paleolithic (has anyone else seen that?), so it's also possible that it is a Neolithic mutation from antigenic diets rather than an evolutionary adaptation.
[/quote]And are there any humans only able to see black/white and grey like some wild species?
[/quote]
Yes, a small number, as was said above.
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Well, I passed that test 100%. Interesting points raised on that site:-
" What bothers colorblind people most?
- When grilling a piece of meat, a red deficient individual cannot tell whether it is raw or well done. Many cannot tell the difference between green and ripe tomatoes or between ketchup and chocolate syrup! Many others are always buying and biting into unripe bananas - they cannot tell if they are yellow or green, and the matt, natural material makes it even harder to distinguish.
- Some food may look definitely disgusting to color vision deficient individuals: a plate full of spinach, for instance, just appears to them like cow pat.
- They can however distinguish some citrus fruits. Oranges seem to be of a brighter yellow than that of lemons.
- A colorblind person is generally unable to interpret the chemical testing kits for swimming pool water, test strips for hard water, soil or water pH tests because they rely on subtle color differences.
- Many colorblind people cannot tell whether a woman is wearing lipstick or not. More difficult to handle for some is the inability to make the difference between a blue-eyed blonde and a green-eyed redhead.
- Color vision deficiencies bother affected children from the earliest years. At school, coloring can become a difficulty when one has to take the blue crayon - and not the pink one - to color the ocean.
- Bi-color and tri-color LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes): is that glowing indicator light red, yellow, or green? Same problem with the traffic lights..."
The 1st one would cause a problem for raw-meat-eaters, I guess.
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Phil, you've not seen a rainbow?? and how do you dream?? color is such a huge impact on the detailed images in my mind whether a dream, a recollection, or perception of nature... along with food. do you notice any other sense(s) have over-compensated?
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Well, I passed that test 100%. Interesting points raised on that site:-
" What bothers colorblind people most?
- When grilling a piece of meat, a red deficient individual cannot tell whether it is raw or well done. Many cannot tell the difference between green and ripe tomatoes or between ketchup and chocolate syrup! Many others are always buying and biting into unripe bananas - they cannot tell if they are yellow or green, and the matt, natural material makes it even harder to distinguish.
...
The 1st one would cause a problem for raw-meat-eaters, I guess.
Cooking red meat causes a problem for me, because it's hard to tell when to stop cooking once I've started (I can't see a red or pink center very well). But if I don't cook at all, it poses no problem whatsoever. So giving up cooking and simply eating raw meat actually makes life easier for red-green colorblind people like me. With raw meat you don't have to worry at all about what color to cook it to.
Phil, you've not seen a rainbow?? and how do you dream?? color is such a huge impact on the detailed images in my mind whether a dream, a recollection, or perception of nature... along with food. do you notice any other sense(s) have over-compensated?
Color-deficient would actually be a more accurate term than colorblind. I can see a rainbow, it's just not as brilliant or colorful as it is for people with color-enhanced vision. It's kind of neat to learn that my vision is luminosity-enhanced, though. I wasn't aware of that, though that's part of the way I determine whether the light is red at the stoplight (it's brighter when lit--though I can detect the colors a bit and I also know the locations). I wonder if my vision is movement-enhanced too. Movement-vision would be more important to a hunter than color vision.
The more I think about it, the more the hunter-adaptation explanation for colorblindness makes sense, more so than the genetic defect through antigenic diet explanation. Is anyone else here colorblind and, if so, what type of diet do you do best on, plant-based or flesh-based?
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All this is interesting. Maybe open a color blind thread?
We're hijacking the newbie's thread.
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OK, I created this new thread - http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/does-color-blindness-suggest-a-hunter-past - because there seems to be much more to color blindness than I ever realized. It's a pretty fascinating topic that may produce additional knowledge about raw Paleolithic nutrition.
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All this is interesting. Maybe open a color blind thread?
We're hijacking the newbie's thread.
You are a goodsamaritan, goodsamaritan. :-D To be honest though, I'm kind of thrilled that my first thread should have unlocked such interesting ideas and input from people.
Plus, there's not much of interest to report. I spent the weekend with a lot of people, and although I did well compared to my usual "weekend madness", I did eat a couple of what the world would describe as "balanced" meals. I must be getting more sensitive because both gave me intense and sometimes painful stomach activity. (I also had a beer on Friday night, which tasted horrible, and only reinforced my decision to give up drink, so was no problem.)
Today I had a salad/light poached egg to help the junk clear out, and tonight I'll try a salad at 5pm, then a few hours later a mono meal of raw "something". (I haven't decided yet - it's my first visit to the posh local butcher and fishmongers later.) Then tomorrow back on with my attempt to fast 'til 5pm, then a carb snack, then a raw meat/fish mono-meal later, with lots of exercise in the day.
(I have a new stimulus to perfect my diet - I'm sorting out my teeth and I want the best nourishment for the teeth/gums possible.)
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I got to the butchers and it was shut!
When I got to the supermarket, all thought of carbs flew from my mind and I just bought a big leg of NZ lamb (likely fed on grass, I think). Just seeing it, my mouth started salivating. I bought a bit of kale, as some sort of veggie token, but I think I'm converted. Something in me is desperate for more meat now it's got a taste for it.
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I am starting the week afresh with a great deal of commitment today.
For a few weeks I am going to experiment with a 100% RAF diet, and see how it affects me. I am fasting until 5pm every day, then a raw grass fed or wild meat and fat meal, and nothing else.
(I'm getting some Vivo barefoot running shoes today (until I'm brave/hardy enough to go truly barefoot). I have been very inspired by reading a book someone recommended on here 'Born to Run'. (Thanks to whoever it was - stupendous book.) I think that's going to be my main exercise. I'm also going to read 'The loneliness of the long distance runner' by Alan Sillitoe.)
One last question. How much fat should I be eating, measured by eye? (Calories and weight aren't clear to me - but, say, 'one part fat to three parts lean' I will have no difficulty understanding.)
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One part fat to three parts meat sounds about right. :)
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One part fat to three parts meat sounds about right. :)
Thanks djr_81. (I must have read it somewhere on here and tucked it away unconsciously.)
I was inspired to try 100% RAF because of a discussion I read on another forum where someone pointed out that, excluding cultivated fruit and veg, if you just set out into your local woods today, what plants would you eat - if the alternative was a juicy deer steak?
I live right by the Downs, and often walk for hours in very wild overgrown countryside (for the UK). I walked and walked this weekend, and, especially now, mid-Winter, I didn't see one plant I really wanted to eat.
Now admittedly, I'm only an armchair forager, but it inspired me.
(Maybe in Summer my natural blackberry eating as I walk along mid Summer will still happen. I guess then it will be "right".)
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Thanks djr_81. (I must have read it somewhere on here and tucked it away unconsciously.)
I was inspired to try 100% RAF because of a discussion I read on another forum where someone pointed out that, excluding cultivated fruit and veg, if you just set out into your local woods today, what plants would you eat - if the alternative was a juicy deer steak?
I live right by the Downs, and often walk for hours in very wild overgrown countryside (for the UK). I walked and walked this weekend, and, especially now, mid-Winter, I didn't see one plant I really wanted to eat.
Now admittedly, I'm only an armchair forager, but it inspired me.
(Maybe in Summer my natural blackberry eating as I walk along mid Summer will still happen. I guess then it will be "right".)
I used to think like that. However, I soon realised that what we view as wild countryside is actually heavily managed by humans either directly or indirectly, so that what we have nowadays has no resemblance to what was found in the Palaeolithic era. A good example are all those heather-clad hills in Scotland and Ireland which used to be full of ancient forests, now long since destroyed by humans.
In the case of the Inuit, they appear to have also eaten seaweed, frozen berries and the like, and not just in the summer.
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In the case of the Inuit, they appear to have also eaten seaweed, frozen berries and the like, and not just in the summer.
Thanks Tyler. I do often walk besides the sea, and I have experimentally eaten seaweed once. It was nice.
(Actually, there are some really wild beaches further up the coast. Do you know, is it legal to just go and eat shellfish?)
I have also eaten lamb's lettuce, sea cabbage, fresh hawthorn leaves and berries, fresh nettles and something else I don't know the name of that has succulent leaves and grows on walls. Maybe I'll go on a proper foraging course.
I walk though Natural Trust woods, with some big natural clearings overlooking the sea and I think the only management is to the paths, so it might be a bit more natural than most countryside. (They also graze big strange cows with long hair and horns in the grazing/scrubland around them - I should find out where they go to be eaten!)
Anyway, I'll try the extreme meat route for a couple of weeks and see how I fare.
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Oh, I love scavenging for raw shellfish, though I do that in Italy, instead. I get raw sea urchin eggs and raw limpets, when I'm over there. Lovely stuff, especially the sea-urchin eggs.
Of course, the density of animal and plant-life, even in the relatively untouched areas is not comparable to palaeo times, given massive human destruction of the environment. Even the rocks near my italian beach, which used to harbour plenty of octopi now are completely empty of them, and I have noticed a considerable decline in the number of (egg-laying) female sea-urchins, but a plethora of males.
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Oh, I love scavenging for raw shellfish, though I do that in Italy, instead. I get raw sea urchin eggs and raw limpets, when I'm over there. Lovely stuff, especially the sea-urchin eggs.
Of course, the density of animal and plant-life, even in the relatively untouched areas is not comparable to palaeo times, given massive human destruction of the environment. Even the rocks near my italian beach, which used to harbour plenty of octopi now are completely empty of them, and I have noticed a considerable decline in the number of (egg-laying) female sea-urchins, but a plethora of males.
I once spoke with the brilliant futurist, Eric Drexler (the father of nanotechnology), and he told me his dream for future technology, industry and 'mass consumer' humanity was that eventually it would all move off Earth, and that the planet would revert to a huge Safari park (apart from a few cultural heritage sites, like Venice and Paris for tourists). Any humans that wanted to live in the park would have to renounce technology beyond the Paleolithic.
Let's hope he gets to run the world.
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Another update.
Last week I tried to eat some raw sardines and herring. I managed to eat them all, but afterwards I started reading and thinking about fish parasites, and came over all queasy. Then I had explosive diarrhea, and stomach rumbles for a day or so. Even thinking about raw fish/meat made me heave.
So I decided to drop RPD and eat "normal" balanced meals until everything calmed down. (I've even eaten non-Paleo crap this weekend, like crisps and coke.)
Anyway, I'm ready to restart.
I've bought a beautiful piece of marbled steak from the posh butcher, with a lump of fat he cut off another steak and charged me for, to make it 3 parts lean to 1 part fat. (I asked him what his cows ate, and he replied "cows eat grass, don't they?" with a twinkle and without a blink of hesitation. He then told me they were "Angus" and certainly lived free range and organic on National Trust land, living on grass and hay as far as he knew. I asked him if they were ever fed grains, and he said he didn't know for sure, but didn't see why that would be necessary - after all the grass is free!)
I'm going back on "fasting until 5" (http://www.fast-5.com/), then one big meal of raw meat. (Some days, if I feel like it, I'll have a "cooked veg only" meal, until I'm sure I can survive on meat alone.)
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Also, for interest, I read in the Metro this morning that bananas are the oldest cultivated fruit at 8,000 years, and were introduced to the wider world by Alexander the Great. By implication then, all cultivated fruit is non-Paleo, and our guts are not designed for it. Fruit is neolithic food.
So I'm going to try to only eat fruit I can forage locally in season - like blackberries, gooseberries, redcurrants, wild strawberries, and anything else I find out about, and skip it the rest of the year.
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Another update.
Last week I tried to eat some raw sardines and herring. I managed to eat them all, but afterwards I started reading and thinking about fish parasites, and came over all queasy. Then I had explosive diarrhea, and stomach rumbles for a day or so. Even thinking about raw fish/meat made me heave.
From a long-ago post on the primal diet list - sardines are best eaten dried. IIRC he hung them in front of an ordinary fan, I don't know how long.
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Thanks for the tip William. I'll certainly not be trying them (even dried) until they stop giving me the "dry heaves" just to look at! :lol:
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Thanks for the tip William. I'll certainly not be trying them (even dried) until they stop giving me the "dry heaves" just to look at! :lol:
They were probably farmed, or at least not wild, wild sardines & herring, are hard to come by & expensive, after researching them ....
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They were expensive. Certainly expensive looking - packed in ice, laid out under glass in a beautiful old worlde shop with a fishmonger dressed the part with a striped apron and straw boater. In the UK where I am, I'm pretty sure herring and sardines are fished wild out of the North Sea. They are saltwater fish, and I don't think they are ever farmed here, although I might be wrong.
I'll ask the fishmonger.
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They were expensive. Certainly expensive looking - packed in ice, laid out under glass in a beautiful old worlde shop with a fishmonger dressed the part with a striped apron and straw boater. In the UK where I am, I'm pretty sure herring and sardines are fished wild out of the North Sea. They are saltwater fish, and I don't think they are ever farmed here, although I might be wrong.
I'll ask the fishmonger.
I'm in the u.k & i've never seen or heard of wild sardines, the odd herring, but theyre expensive
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I am buying the most expensive food available, so on that basis they would be wild.
Are there saltwater fish farms in the UK? Doesn't the sea have to be very cold for these kinds of fish? Wouldn't a farm in open sea around Scotland be wrecked by Winter storms, and effectively unmanable because of rough waters. Isn't it just easier to have a boat and fish.
I've looked for sardine and herring farms on google in the UK and none come up - only farms where the farmer's name is Herring. Yet there are lots of links about herring fishing with trawlers and the UK/Scottish herring fishing fleet.
I'm no expert roony, but I think you are wrong.
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I am buying the most expensive food available, so on that basis they would be wild.
Are there saltwater fish farms in the UK? Doesn't the sea have to be very cold for these kinds of fish? Wouldn't a farm in open sea around Scotland be wrecked by Winter storms, and effectively unmanable because of rough waters. Isn't it just easier to have a boat and fish.
I've looked for sardine and herring farms on google in the UK and none come up - only farms where the farmer's name is Herring. Yet there are lots of links about herring fishing with trawlers and the UK/Scottish herring fishing fleet.
I'm no expert roony, but I think you are wrong.
I said i've seen herring, gl finding wild sardine
Theres plenty of salmon farms in britain
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Next time I want to buy fish I will ask the fishmonger and find out for us. (But that might be a long time off, as even the thought of it makes my stomach turnover. The poor man might have lost a customer for life. :lol:)
Yes, salmon is often farmed. Maybe because they have a freshwater phase and it can easily be done in rivers and estuaries, but as I say I'm no expert.
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Next time I want to buy fish I will ask the fishmonger and find out for us. (But that might be a long time off, as even the thought of it makes my stomach turnover. The poor man might have lost a customer for life. :lol:)
Yes, salmon is often farmed. Maybe because they have a freshwater phase and it can easily be done in rivers and estuaries, but as I say I'm no expert.
lol, you have to be crafty with most fishmongers & farmers, they shoot farmed pheasants too ... I normally ask the origin & ask what they were fed
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Although the shop was expensive, I've looked up the receipt, and the sardines and herring were phenomenally cheap -38p for four sardines and 56p for one herring.
I'm now quite sure they were wild. According to this article in the NY Times, wild sardines are so plentiful and cheap they are used as food in salmon farms:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/weekinreview/16bittman.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
Why bother with farm-raised salmon and its relatives? If the world’s wealthier fish-eaters began to appreciate wild sardines, anchovies, herring and the like, we would be less inclined to feed them to salmon raised in fish farms. And we’d be helping restock the seas with larger species.
I've looked up fish farms on wikipedia and all the popular fish farm types are mentioned, but herring and sardines are unmentioned. I looked up sardines on wikipedia and it only described ocean fishing.
I think that wraps it up for me.
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Kwl, i still wont be eating them, not eating fish with that high mercury content, even raw, i prefer whitebait but need to chck its mercury content
hmm, anyone know small fish with edible bones?
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I don't know if it was correct, but TD posted something to do with mercury not being a problem from raw fish. Again, I didn't actually read the link, and don't know if there was anything to it.
The bones in the raw sardines I ate weren't edible...
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I don't know if it was correct, but TD posted something to do with mercury not being a problem from raw fish. Again, I didn't actually read the link, and don't know if there was anything to it.
The bones in the raw sardines I ate weren't edible...
Yes i know what he's referring to, but im not ingesting 5-10% mercury, i'd rather ingest a low mercury fish & ingest 1-2% mercury, sardines can go contaminate vegans for all i care
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This is not true, and your figures make no sense.
Fish concentrate mercury by being high up in the predator chain, for example sharks (0.988 parts per million), swordfish (0.976 ppm), King Mackerel (0.730 ppm). Sardines are extremely low in the pecking order, and have typical mercury concentrations of 0.016ppm, certainly amongst the lowest levels for all sea fish.
Here is a mercury calculator:
http://www.gotmercury.org/
Roony, I don't like to pick on someone, but you seem to just make things up. It isn't helpful when some people are coming here with real health issues, seeking true information. Perhaps if you want to make something up, just preface it with "I think" instead of stating it as a known fact.
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Precisely. Roony is just scaremongering with such nonsense about the mercury-in-fish so-called "theory". Plus, it's absolutely disgraceful to scare off newbies from eating a wide variety of raw seafood as it's such a healthy food.The fishscam.com website is 1 of the 2 sources I cited, incidentally, and also reveals the other source within its pages.
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Roony is just scaremongering with such nonsense about the mercury-in-fish so-called "theory".
That there is mercury in fish is not a theory,it is a fact as the measurements quoted by Stig show.
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That there is mercury in fish is not a theory,it is a fact as the measurements quoted by Stig show.
The point is not that mercury doesn't exist in species; after all natural traces of mercury exists in all wildlife, the oceans, and the rest of the world, along with traces of every other element , such as uranium. The POINT is that the traces of mercury, re parts per million(!) are so tiny that they have no effect on people.
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The POINT is that the traces of mercury, re parts per million(!) are so tiny that they have no effect on people.
There is no minimum level for mercury below which it is safe. It is poisonous in any quantity, be that only one molecule.
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There is no minimum level for mercury below which it is safe. It is poisonous in any quantity, be that only one molecule.
This is just the sort of retarded fanaticism that has to be stopped in the raw-foodist community.Mercury does indeed have a minimum dosage level above which it is harmful, just like with any other substance, it's just that it's much, much higher than anti-mercury proponents like to claim. Here's yet another study showing that low doses of mercury aren't harmful:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12197270
What I found most amusing was that the famous Seychelles study by Rochester University showed that there was actually a benefit as mercury-levels went up:- " in The Rochester team is continuing the study and is currently analyzing the same group of children at eight years of age. The scientists are also working with nutrition experts from the University of Ulster in Northern Ireland to explain an unexpected finding: As mercury levels in the children went up, so did their performance on tests." taken from:-
http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/med/mercury.htm
Now they didn't ascribe it to mercury, it's most likely due to increased fish-consumption re omega-3s, but it does show that mercury-levels in foods are of no relevance whatsoever to human health.
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Some would probably claim it was due to HF autism from the mercury ;)
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Some would probably claim it was due to HF autism from the mercury ;)
Only the most deluded would do so, given that autism is a genetic condition not something that is transmitted via food! At any rate, the fact that there was a rise in performance re neurological effects simply demolishes the mercury-toxicity notions outright.
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Only the most deluded would do so, given that autism is a genetic condition not something that is transmitted via food! At any rate, the fact that there was a rise in performance re neurological effects simply demolishes the mercury-toxicity notions outright.
???
So food doesn't affect your DNA or your parents DNA. Or are trying to start a debate?
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???
So food doesn't affect your DNA or your parents DNA. Or are trying to start a debate?
Well, I do believe in epigenetics where a grandparent's diet or behaviour can influence asthma-rates of grandchildren etc., but there is no credible link made between mercury-ingestion and autism etc. if ingested within that person's lifetime.
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I'm going back on "fasting until 5" (http://www.fast-5.com/), then one big meal of raw meat. (Some days, if I feel like it, I'll have a "cooked veg only" meal, until I'm sure I can survive on meat alone.)
I think you'd be better off eating your big meal around noon. :) Just my guess.
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I'm genuinely interested in why you say that, cherimoya_kid. I've done a lot of fasting and I find that until I break the fast, I don't get hungry. I think if I ate at midday, I'd want to eat in the afternoon/evening too.
Are you thinking about energy for work, etc.? (My life is too messed up for that to be an issue. :lol: )
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I'm genuinely interested in why you say that, cherimoya_kid. I've done a lot of fasting and I find that until I break the fast, I don't get hungry. I think if I ate at midday, I'd want to eat in the afternoon/evening too.
Are you thinking about energy for work, etc.? (My life is too messed up for that to be an issue. :lol: )
No, I'm thinking about how much better you'd sleep, and how much better you'd digest your food. Also, it's very helpful to truly stuff yourself at that one midday meal. You'll find that you wake very hungry if you don't eat after about 2 pm, hungry enough to eat a very large meal.
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I might give it a go, as I am always experimenting.
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I strongly disagree with cherimoya. Stick with the more NATURAL Fast-5 eating window of 5-10. This is highly optimal. I usually eat my biggest meal at 9PM--I'm eating now. I do not eat outside the 5-10 window. We are meant to be daily hunters and evening feasters.
Eating during the day makes me hungry, too.
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Eating during the day makes me hungry, too.
That's always been my experience - once I've eaten, the normal meal schedule is back on. I might still try it though, if only to exclude it as an option, as I don't have a seven-day-a-week routine yet.
(My main problem is social "silly" eating at the weekends - then that normally messes me up until about Wednesday, by which time a sensible routine is back - before derailing again the next Saturday. I've just told everyone that I'm stopping, and I'll bring my own food at the weekends. I'll just have to take the feelings of "longing for the snacks of others" and any ribbing about raw meat. I think I'm strong enough now. Generally I feel very calm and able to take emotional knocks at the moment. A new feeling for me.)
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so far what i've liked best is eating two meals: one in the morning (wake up, then workout, then eat... so about 2.5 hours or so after rising?) then another not later than 2pm. this is what i do on the weekends. during the week it is just more convenient to eat when i get home from work, so i eat one meal between 6 and 8 pm typically on those days.
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I strongly disagree with cherimoya. Stick with the more NATURAL Fast-5 eating window of 5-10. This is highly optimal. I usually eat my biggest meal at 9PM--I'm eating now. I do not eat outside the 5-10 window. We are meant to be daily hunters and evening feasters.
Eating during the day makes me hungry, too.
I really do not enjoy waking up with a full belly. It's better to eat nearly all of your daily food at noon, and only a little bit in the evening. It digest much better, and you SLEEP better. Period. End of story. :)
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ck, are you saying you eat your first meal at noonish, and then another lighter one early evening?
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ck, are you saying you eat your first meal at noonish, and then another lighter one early evening?
Yes. I would go back to one a day if my work schedule allowed it. Another method would be to eat earlier in the evening for my second meal, but, again, my work schedule doesn't really allow for that. I wish it did.
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Just to say (some of you will have been reading) that I have had a few revelatory breakthroughs in the past few days, on this thread:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health-b29/%27compete-with-meat%27/
Anyway, I now feel completely at home here, and have decided I am "enough of a real member" to set up a journal:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/stig-of-the-dump%27s-journal-may-contain-rude-language-d/
And a photos thread:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/before-and-after-photos/stig-of-the-dump%27s-photos/
(Thanks again to everyone who has helped me so far.)
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I have had a change of heart (something I'm known for) and can't feel comfortable with all that info out on the web forever, so I scrubbed the health thread and the photo thread and my journal thread that had a photo.
But I've restarted a new journal with the last post of the old:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/stig-of-the-dump%27s-new-journal/
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I've even dropped my new journal. I am not of one mind. Today I just want to be sociable, and not try and perfect my diet. (I've done five days of fast five and pure raw fat and meat so far, but I want to drop it tonight.)
I think it's silly for me to keep a journal if I'm just switching back and forth, maybe ending up in some strange middle ground of some raw, some cooked paleo and social eating.
Anyway, just so you know if I stop posting, I'm not gone, I just need time to settle on a goal all my 'parts' can agree on.
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You shouldn't be worried by going off plan. That is the whole point of the journal, to detail all of the journey not just the raw paleo part. I had a nice 7-10 day cooked carb holiday that just ended a week ago, and before that had a decent amount of cooked food. You don't have to wait until you have everything just perfect or else you may never start. We all slip up or purposefully go off diet. As for not being of 'one mind', a quick glance through my journal will let you know that I am having significant trouble piecing everything together and feel overwhelmed much of the time. I've gotten some excellent advice from the members here which has really made an impact on my recovery.
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You shouldn't be worried by going off plan. That is the whole point of the journal, to detail all of the journey not just the raw paleo part. I had a nice 7-10 day cooked carb holiday that just ended a week ago, and before that had a decent amount of cooked food. You don't have to wait until you have everything just perfect or else you may never start. We all slip up or purposefully go off diet. As for not being of 'one mind', a quick glance through my journal will let you know that I am having significant trouble piecing everything together and feel overwhelmed much of the time. I've gotten some excellent advice from the members here which has really made an impact on my recovery.
Paleo Donk - I'm sure you're right. I certainly know that "being off" can only be a phase, because, after all, where else is there to aim, once I know what is healthy? (At least at this level of my understanding.) It's almost impossible for me to stay eating wrong, and just watch bodily repercussions, for any length of time, any more.
(But I still want to go to my cafe and read the paper tomorrow morning.)
What triggered it was buying lots of venison haunch to eat at the weekend, and when I unwrapped it, it was very gamey - effectively high meat, or headed that way. I'm just not far enough along for that. I couldn't eat it raw. (I've had a poor quality venison before from a supermarket, but that was just like all supermarket meat.) Plus I might have fasted too much and felt light-headed, and wanted to just fill up on anything. We had home made hamburgers and coke, cooked from scratch by one of my nephews. It was really well made stuff, but utter junk by paleo criteria.
The other big thing I noticed today. My dentist asked me to work on my posture and try and breathe through my nose, to help the orthodontic appliances working on moving and expanding the palates. I found my nose passage so limited that I couldn't even walk and only breathe through my nose. Worse, I couldn't even wash myself in the bath and keep up the nose breathing. It was too exhausting, and I found myself panting for breath.
Only good diet, and the orthodontic work succeeding, will clear my nasal airway. It's a virtuous loop, and I have to come back to it, no matter how childish my eating urges. (Although madly, with one bad meal, the detox stops and my nose clears. The body's methods can seem counterintuitive - punishing you with a heavy detox when you are being virtuous towards it. In fact, life's a lot like that in all areas.)
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What triggered it was buying lots of venison haunch to eat at the weekend, and when I unwrapped it, it was very gamey - effectively high meat, or headed that way. I'm just not far enough along for that. I couldn't eat it raw. (I've had a poor quality venison before from a supermarket, but that was just like all supermarket meat.) Plus I might have fasted too much and felt light-headed, and wanted to just fill up on anything. We had home made hamburgers and coke, cooked from scratch by one of my nephews. It was really well made stuff, but utter junk by paleo criteria.
I suggest eating large amounts of raw fat, particularly grass-fed fat or fatty fish, at the beginning of each meal. Fat fills you up and satisfies.
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I suggest eating large amounts of raw fat, particularly grass-fed fat or fatty fish, at the beginning of each meal. Fat fills you up and satisfies.
I'll log that in my brain because I am restarting on Monday when I am back on my own terrain.
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I woke up feeling sick, and although I've taken the dogs for a walk, I still feel sick. Plus my legs ache and I feel weak and trembly. So one and a half days of SAD food, and I am sofa bound.
(I think my SAD food relapses are drawing to a close.)
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I'm having a cooked paleo week, eating up that venison. (It tastes gorgeous cooked. It makes me sure, that when I get used to it raw, it will be gorgeous raw too. When I'm ready to try again, I'll buy a little quarter pound slice regularly (weekly?) until I get used to it.)
At the end of each meal I am eating some raw grass fed beef fat. The more I eat it, the more I love it. It's starting to taste like ice cream!
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At the end of each meal I am eating some raw grass fed beef fat. The more I eat it, the more I love it. It's starting to taste like ice cream!
The best advice is to eat the fat to satiety at the start of every meal, then meat. This makes it possible to avoid the problems caused by disproportionate protein/fat ratio.
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The best advice is to eat the fat to satiety at the start of every meal, then meat. This makes it possible to avoid the problems caused by disproportionate protein/fat ratio.
Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.
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I have just reread the above few posts. The fact that I forgot to "log" what cherimoya_kid said, and was surprised by the same information twice says a lot about how my brain works.
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Just to pop in and say I'm still here and reading now and again.
I've just had two wild salmon fillets, and hope to be back fully on a regime of fasting until 5pm and raw meat tomorrow. Diet hasn't been my main concern lately, and I've let it slip a bit, but my life is pulling ahead well in other areas, so something good is happening.
I will try and check in again tomorrow.
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Good luck, SOTD 8)
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My goodness you have a beautiful figure klowcarb. Well done! ;D
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Well I joined the gym today, and I'm going to go first thing in the morning tomorrow. (Hopefully that will kill two birds with one stone, and give me something to substitute my morning visit to the cafe with.)
I'm going to go twice a day, morning and afternoon for an hour each time. At first I'll just walk, then gradually introduce running, a minute more each day, focusing on posture and being barefoot. When I'm running the full hour, I'll start taking my barefoot running outside (to and from the gym) and start switching over to strength training.
My main thing, is very, very gradual changes - even the weights, just a twig at first! I don't intend to do all that "go for the burn", "rest days" stuff. I think Paleo man was much more chaotic than that and probably had to do difficult hard work (for example stabbing an auroch to death with a ten foot pole, trying not to trip over the ropes attached to it and all the dogs running around) most days.
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Where do you live Stig? Good choice with going barefoot, you done much already?
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(Cheers miles. After my information splurge last week I didn't feel too comfortable, so I've decided to keep anything that can really identify me, like my location, private.)
Yes, I had a long period going barefoot where I was pretty crazy with long, long hair and a long beard. I must have been quite a sight!
One thing I learned is that the world is seemingly terrified of people without shoes. Bizarrely, once you show that you own shoes, by dangling them in your hand as you stroll, all the fear lifts. It really is a simple as that. If I walked into a store with my shoes in my hand, everybody's happy, I'm just a very relaxed person enjoying a stroll. If I go in the store with my shoes hidden in my bag ... call security! We've got a barefoot loony in the shop! ;D
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!!!! It's true! About carrying the shoes..
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Thank you, Sting. I just turned 29 yesterday and am in the best shape of my life. :D I'm glad to hear about your workouts. Lifting brings me so much joy.
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Hello again all! ;D I'm not really a newbie, but I've been totally "absent".
I mentioned I have "mental health" issues (more likely food-based, than brain-based), and one of them is a sort of multiple personality thing - where I go for months or even years into a totally different space. (It makes a social life very hard, as the person I've been being has very little to do with how I suddenly feel "now" - and suddenly my social network can't relate to me, nor me to them.)
But in essence, I've been being an alcoholic since my last post. I came off all paleo, never mind raw, and most mornings I'd just buy a wine box and drink it - then blitz all my old girlfriends/crushes with meaningless, chaotic, poetic e-mail messages of my tragic pining.
Anyway, a few days ago suddenly "ping" the drinking stopped, and then suddenly "ping" I want to exercise and suddenly "ping" I remember this place and all of you. And I'm back here, looking at everyone's photographs and how fabulously healthy you all are, and I'm thinking "what the f*** was I thinking?".
Anyway, here's hoping it lasts. Raw meat tomorrow, and maybe I'll post a bit more. Nice to see you're all still thriving!
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Glad to see you found your way back here!
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SOTD! so strange because i was recently wondering what you were up to. glad you're back!
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Thank you both. Nice to see you too. ;D
Ioanna, there is some sort of strange supernatural guidance going on (no matter how daft "getting drunk" sounds, it felt like a unique, purposeful life passage - hopeful one that needs no repetition), so it doesn't surprise me that there might be psychic forerunners. All through my life I feel as if I've suddenly been delivered into new bands/groups of people, who all seem to be there for a reason.
It's a fleeting thing - it doesn't last - but just for a while, everything seems to be running hot. Synchronistic, times of blossoming.