Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: roony on January 20, 2010, 05:29:55 am
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I've seen alot ppl complain about stuff like pemmico, as raw animal fat if left too long becomes rancid, why is rancid raw fat bad for you?
From what i understand, dairy, which is basically another type of raw animal fat, if left for too long, becomes a sour cream, then a cottage cheese, then a regular cheese, it basically never becomes toxic
Isnt rancid raw animal fat, just another type of sour cream or cottage cheese?
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Most pemmican on this forum, and basically all you'll read about elsewhere, has been heated so is no longer raw. Some will debate what this does to the structure, etc., but we can all agree it's no longer raw.
Pemmican also has a tremendous shelf life as a result of the heating (remove the water in the fat and there's not much to spoil).
The water in fat can go rancid. Sometimes the fat tastes fine, sometimes it's unpalatable. I think the only definite is it will smell much stronger.
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So is rancid animal fat, pathogenically safe to eat, ie like in biltong, or is it pathogenically & virally unsafe to eat?
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IMO a rancid fat is a fat thats been heated. Maybe other members on this forum
can help answer your question more accurately.
i.e. Cooked meats turn rancid and putrefy, not raw
dunno if the same applies to fat
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IMO a rancid fat is a fat thats been heated. Maybe other members on this forum
can help answer your question more accurately.
i.e. Cooked meats turn rancid and putrefy, not raw
dunno if the same applies to fat
Oh great, im referring to if left out too long in fridge or air dried & left for over 6 months, ie biltong
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Oh great, im referring to if left out too long in fridge or air dried & left for over 6 months, ie biltong
I'll leave that for the experts to decide ;)
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i haven't tried drying softer fats, but i have air dried suet and it seems to keep indefinitely. i bring some along for camping trips or travel and i really don't see it ever going bad. i've eaten some that was at least 6 months old (just sitting in an open jar on my desk) and it tasted nearly identical to fresh suet but had a different texture. it was a little more 'gummy' i guess you could say. i've wondered the same thing though. maybe you can make a type of cheese out of just raw fat...
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kwl, so fatty air dried fatty cuts like brisket & breast of lamb biltong will last pretty much indefinitely?
hmm animal fat cheeses ... yum :o
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no, i used suet, not the fat from brisket. however, as long as the fat is hard when fresh, i would think it would dry similar to suet.
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Yeah, it's only heated fats that are a problem. Aging raw fat doesn't matter.
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Most pemmican on this forum, and basically all you'll read about elsewhere, has been heated so is no longer raw.
No pemmican is ever heated.
Pemmican is a mixture of raw beef and tallow. It has the same effect as eating raw fat meat, without the stuff that goes rancid, so those who cannot stand raw meat can eat pemmican and get the same or better benefits
There is no fat in pemmican.
Pemmican also has a tremendous shelf life as a result of the heating (remove the water in the fat and there's not much to spoil).
If that were true, it would not be edible. Nobody here eats heated pemmican, or just removes water.
The water in fat can go rancid.
Water does not go rancid. You must have got that one from TD, it's his style.
Sometimes the fat tastes fine, sometimes it's unpalatable. I think the only definite is it will smell much stronger.
If fat smells rancid, don't eat it. Note that high meat is never made with fat in, only with lean beef.
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IMO a rancid fat is a fat thats been heated.
Wrong. Not even the tallowphobic Tyler Durden has tried that.
If you leave fat in your refrigerator for a while you can smell it for yourself. Rancid fats and oils have a very strong and unpleasant smell.
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hmm, whats wrong with eating, tons of fatty high meat?
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No pemmican is ever heated.
Pemmican is a mixture of raw beef and tallow. It has the same effect as eating raw fat meat, without the stuff that goes rancid, so those who cannot stand raw meat can eat pemmican and get the same or better benefits
There is no fat in pemmican.
William; I enjoy the zest you have for debate but please note I chose my words very carefully for just this argument.
Nevermind, I realized what I wrote back in the last post. -[
To clear things up the fat in the pemmican is heated to render it into tallow. We can all argue until we're blue in the face about what occurs to it when heated but we all have to agree that the fat is heated (unless it's raw pemmican). :)
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hmm, whats wrong with eating, tons of fatty high meat?
Hmm, can we please stick to the topic & keep the pemmican debate to the pemmican thread lol
I only brought it up as an example :)
I was under the impression since raw fat never really rots, high fatty high meat should be ok to eat?
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William; I enjoy the zest you have for debate but please note I chose my words very carefully for just this argument.
Nevermind, I realized what I wrote back in the last post. -[
I despise debate, as I see it as a way of hurting feelings and putting people down.
I am trying to do damage control, and some think it debate because they apparently cannot see the nose in front of their face.
For instance: cooked fat is bad, on this we can all agree.
Tallow is good - this has been tried, tested proven many thousands of times for countless years, and people here still claim that there is something wrong with it. This badness claim is made without supporting evidence;it is merely the mistaken opinion of one who knows not evidence, neither does he care. Pure hot air, or the text version.
To clear things up the fat in the pemmican is heated to render it into tallow. We can all argue until we're blue in the face about what occurs to it when heated but we all have to agree that the fat is heated (unless it's raw pemmican). :)
God give me strength.
There is no fat in tallow. None.
There is no fat in pemmican. None.
It is named tallow because it is not fat.
As to what happens to fat when it is heated, alphagruis has alread described this better than I can. Here:
http://tiny.cc/5RJNT
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/coconut-oil-and-antinutrients/90/
There is no argument for those who have done it and seen that the whole point of rendering is to separate the bad solid part of fat (something to do with adipose tissue) from the good/liquid part. The good part is called tallow.
To attempt to make this even more clear, a pemmican only diet is strong medicine, and those who try it must expect some problems in the beginning, even if only lethargy.
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I was thinking a bit about pemmican today. Instead of making the fat into tallow, why not eat the fat raw with the dried meat. As long as you aren't traveling this could work differently. Maybe try the other combo as well, raw meat with tallow.
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I was thinking a bit about pemmican today. Instead of making the fat into tallow, why not eat the fat raw with the dried meat. As long as you aren't traveling this could work differently. Maybe try the other combo as well, raw meat with tallow.
Been covered in posts both recent and long ago. Both ways give me the shits.
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I was thinking a bit about pemmican today. Instead of making the fat into tallow, why not eat the fat raw with the dried meat. As long as you aren't traveling this could work differently. Maybe try the other combo as well, raw meat with tallow.
that's exactly what i do for travelling. i have a bag of jerky and a bag of dried suet. works pretty well. but the dried suet isn't all that tasty
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OK, William, 1st warning, no more nonsense claims re rubbish about pemmican being raw(when the fat is heated) or claims that pemmican is healthy when so many get health-problems from it, let alone the notion that tallow is healthy. I'm moving this to the hot topics forum as this thread was hijacked somewhat by William in a trollish way.
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There is no argument for those who have done it and seen that the whole point of rendering is to separate the bad solid part of fat (something to do with adipose tissue) from the good/liquid part. The good part is called tallow.
To attempt to make this even more clear, a pemmican only diet is strong medicine, and those who try it must expect some problems in the beginning, even if only lethargy.
What makes you think that the solid part of the fat is bad ?
It is only when fat is heated that the solid part becomes bad. Eaten raw, it is totally healthy.
I have no doubt that pemmican is inferior to whole raw meat, for the following reasons :
-It is clearly not a paleolithic food because it requires fire and a sophisticated filtering process.
-Even if saturated fat is quite stable at high temperature, there is inevitably a loss of micronutrients (vitamin, mineral, etc.).
-What is the purpose of drying meat, if it is to drink one gallon of water after eating pemmican like claimed to do Delfuego ? I don't see the evolutionnary advantage to be dehydrated... After a meal of fatty meat, I am not particularly thirsty...
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Yeah, it's only heated fats that are a problem. Aging raw fat doesn't matter.
This is of course not true. Leaving fat high in PUFAs at air and room temperature or even below and/ or in light makes it progressively rancid. For instance sardines or anchovies left in frigde or at room temperature for drying become rancid after about 10 days. As judged by taste, which becomes clearly bitter and repulsive. I don't eat them then, though there is admittedly little evidence that the oxidised fatty acids do much harm at this stage.
Notice also that cold pressed flax oil, very rich in PUFAs, is in many countries by law only allowed for sale during fairly short storage period precisely because of the formation of toxic peroxidation products at room temperature. No need to heat the stuff.
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This is of course not true. Leaving fat high in PUFAs at air and room temperature or even below and/ or in light makes it progressively rancid. For instance sardines or anchovies left in frigde or at room temperature for drying become rancid after about 10 days. As judged by taste, which becomes clearly bitter and repulsive. I don't eat them then, though there is admittedly little evidence that the oxidised fatty acids do much harm at this stage.
Notice also that cold pressed flax oil, very rich in PUFAs, is in many countries by law only allowed for sale during fairly short storage period precisely because of the formation of toxic peroxidation products at room temperature. No need to heat the stuff.
I guess I defined rancid in a different way - AV likes to state that raw foods merely decompose/rot but cooked foods are aged as well. As for raw aged fats, the Eskimoes seem to have done fine on raw aged fish, despite the high PUFA content. Plus, RVAFers do so remarkably well re "high-meat" in terms of digestion/health that I'm very sceptical of claims that oxidation of raw foods is exactly the same process as oxidation induced by cooking. At the very least, one can state that oxidation of raw foods is a slower process.
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I guess I defined rancid in a different way - AV likes to state that raw foods merely decompose/rot but cooked foods are aged as well. As for raw aged fats, the Eskimoes seem to have done fine on raw aged fish, despite the high PUFA content. Plus, RVAFers do so remarkably well re "high-meat" in terms of digestion/health that I'm very sceptical of claims that oxidation of raw foods is exactly the same process as oxidation induced by cooking. At the very least, one can state that oxidation of raw foods is a slower process.
Yea, theyre completely different processes
I'm not sure if rancid raw fats are even bad for you ... ie, sour cream, cheeses, cottage cheese etc
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I'm not sure if rancid raw fats are even bad for you ... ie, sour cream, cheeses, cottage cheese etc
Dairy ferments with lactic acid present, just fat by itself is likely to change differently. We need biochemistry here, otherwise it is just speculation.
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Yea, theyre completely different processes
I'm not sure if rancid raw fats are even bad for you ... ie, sour cream, cheeses, cottage cheese etc
Cottage cheese isn't raw.
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Consumed a brisket over a month now, been in the fridge, nearly complete fat cuts, no rancidity, tastes almost as fresh the day i bought it ...
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I'm very sceptical of claims that oxidation of raw foods is exactly the same process as oxidation induced by cooking.
Who did claim anything like that in this thread ? And where?
Cooking accelerates tremendously the exactly same processes that occur at room temperature and also causes other damages to the fatty acids for instance cis to trans isomerization. A main point in room temperature aging is the simultaneous activity of bacteria and fungi. These microorganisms are most likely capable to feed on oxidised fats and so prevent their rapid build-up/
Another main point is that interaction of fat with oxygen at room temperature is necessarily a surface process so rancidity develops at the surface of foods rich in PUFAs. When stored in bulk form in the form of big lumps of blubber or in rendered form as done by the inuits there is only a tiny surface layer that gets rancid with little consequences since the ratio of rancid/non rancid fats remains negligible. Same for a big lump of cheese or fatty meat. Yet in more divided form of fatty meat or fish with increased surface to volume ratio left to age several weeks at air the rancidity of the fats becomes quite obvious as with the example of gutted sardines or anchovies.
Everybody can do the experiment.
Note also that beef fat contains very little PUFAs and shows little rancidity after a few weeks in fridge. In contrast to boar or horse fat for instance .
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There is a big difference between i guess what i would call 'dry' aging, and 'wet' aging.. Dry aging is what I do where I just hang lumps of meat up, the outside drys out and gets a small white mould thing growing on the surface. Wet aging seems to be different and a method I dont use since its harder to do. I would call wet aging when you put meat chunks in a jar in the fridge and air it out so the moisture is staying in the jar with the meat so its a more moist enviroment. Wet aging is more.. sloppy? to me, where my dry aging i just peel off the outside layer and inside is delicious tender meat full of flavor. I find wet stuff is more mouldy and less appetising to me where the dry aged stuff i find pretty awesome, i eat it like a banana with the dry part being the skin that i toss my dog later on haha.
William, If you cannot eat raw fat then you have a problem, are you addressing this or are you going to eat your pemmican band-aid forever? Pemmican is for noobs who cant handle the raw meat and fat, its makes it more palatable, are you sure you're not hiding behind this?
It doesnt make sense to me that part of the animal (especially the most important part) is 'bad' for you. To take out the 'bad' part of fat you need to process it over fire and filter it?? does not compute - not paleo - not natural. I dont think anyone would care that you eat pemmican except that you;re plugging the shit out of it.
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William, If you cannot eat raw fat then you have a problem, are you addressing this or are you going to eat your pemmican band-aid forever? Pemmican is for noobs who cant handle the raw meat and fat, its makes it more palatable, are you sure you're not hiding behind this?
Yes, I have a problem, and I have lots of company, that 's why I eat pemmican.
It doesnt make sense to me that part of the animal (especially the most important part) is 'bad' for you. To take out the 'bad' part of fat you need to process it over fire and filter it?? does not compute - not paleo - not natural. I dont think anyone would care that you eat pemmican except that you're plugging the shit out of it.
The only fat we get is not paleo, unless you killed the animal yourself and butchered it as paleoman did. I repeat that we don't know what butchers/abattoirs do to it.
It is the only healing way that I have found, and I will defend it. This is self-defense.
If I think that others can benefit from it then I will tell them about it - this is not plugging, it is kindness.