Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on January 29, 2010, 10:38:24 am

Title: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 29, 2010, 10:38:24 am
Which of these two would you rather look like, and can you guess their ages at the time of these photos?

Doug Graham:
Aug 2009(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:9EorAQaKh-hfKM:http://api.ning.com/files/oSXuhnfhRKAZ-sj3K83-Jv49YLHDkz51LlFtqik1xTe4-y4*8KlUHeCGPbBGatwoAx9P*vo28bMgdjhg3nl7*PUvw*T6pawJ/149494994.jpeg&t=1) Sept 2009(http://www.endcandidablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Sharon-Dr.-Doug1-300x225.jpg)

Art De Vany: (http://www.cbass.com/IMAGES/ArtDeVany.jpg)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: invisible on January 29, 2010, 10:51:24 am
I don't know who Graham is, but I just read he does a 80/10/10 (carb/protein/fat) diet.

I know that De Vany does a cooked paleo diet + intermittent fasting.

De Vany obviously looks in better shape
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 29, 2010, 10:51:53 am
Here's another guy to consider--I think William or Hannibal tipped me off to him.

Dr. Greg Elllis
(http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler11a.jpg)

You can probably guess the sort of diet that Graham eats vs. De Vany and Ellis. Take a shot at it.


Graham looks like crap like me--maybe even worse. At least I'm not fool enough to try to do videos selling a diet looking like that. Graham writes it off to bad genes, but that raises the question of why bother with his diet if the genes override it anyway? Especially given that he looks a heck of a lot worse now than he did when he started his vegan insanity--even accounting for aging.

Of course, anecdotal evidence is not conclusive, as the vegheads would probably say, but the scientific evidence is also accumulating into mountains that eating lots of plant foods, especially cooked plant foods, is simply foolish if one has the choice not to--especially for people like me who apparently have hunter genes.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: cherimoya_kid on January 29, 2010, 11:19:10 am
I fear that Doug Graham is going to have an ugly, ugly end...unfortunately, I don't think he's the type of person who knows how to turn back when things are going wrong.  Who knows, maybe he'll adopt animals products again, but I doubt it.  I think his terrible, untimely death from inadequate diet will rock the raw foodist world, and hopefully wake some people.

I'm definitely planning to use his early death as a way to warn people away from 80/10/10, should he choose to die that way.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on January 29, 2010, 11:32:37 am
There are lots of people on raw vegan forums who don't do well on 80/10/10, i don't think that diet is catching on at all.

Also, comparing 2 gurus to judge a diet is silly. Speaking of which, Durianrider (80/10/10 guru) has been making fun of Ajonus lately because Ajonus was apparently very sick during a presentation in Australia.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 29, 2010, 11:38:22 am
There are lots of people on raw vegan forums who don't do well on 80/10/10, i don't think that diet is catching on at all.

Also, comparing 2 gurus to judge a diet is silly.
I already acknowledged that anecdotal evidence isn't scientific. What's more silly is vegans/fruitarians blindly following Graham despite mountains of scientific evidence weighing against his insane views and his looking like crap. The anecdotal evidence is not meant to be conclusive--just to call into question the absolute utopian purist fanaticism of Graham and his devotees. If we believed the uber propaganda of the 80-10-10ers there wouldn't be anyone looking better than Graham and his ilk. You see, they don't claim that 80-10-10 is just a little better than a meat-heavy diet or that only some people benefit from it. They claim that there's no comparison and everyone can benefit from it if they just do it "right." Yet the obvious decline of their guru seems to have little effect on them. Some of the coolaid drinkers even claimed that he looks good.  -\
 
Quote
Speaking of which, Durianrider (80/10/10 guru) has been making fun of Ajonus lately because Ajonus was apparently very sick during a presentation in Australia.
I pointed out myself that Aajonus doesn't look good and is deteriorating faster than just age would necessarily account for, and I wouldn't follow his diet unless a gun was pointed to my head. Isn't it interesting, though, how that Graham-follower you mention fails to acknowledge that his own guru makes Aajonus look great by comparison? And at least Aajonus recognizes that raw meat and high meat are healthful. Aajonus also claims he overcame more severe health problems than Graham did, though I don't put a lot of stock in guru claims.

I would feel sorry for Graham if he wasn't bringing a lot of people down with him. The 80-10-10/fruitarian-oriented forums are the most sickly diet groups I've ever seen. I've never checked out a Breatharian forum, though.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: William on January 29, 2010, 01:15:54 pm

 I pointed out myself that Aajonus doesn't look good and is deteriorating faster than just age would necessarily account for, and I wouldn't follow his diet unless a gun was pointed to my head.

Aajonus sleeps 4 hours/day. Maximum
That's what he looks like to me - sleep deprived.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on January 29, 2010, 02:48:59 pm
Speaking of which, Durianrider (80/10/10 guru) has been making fun of Ajonus lately because Ajonus was apparently very sick during a presentation in Australia.

    That heel was making fun of aajonus when he looked and felt good too before the Asia incidents.  dR and his like make fun of skinny models and call them too fat, if the model is not practicing a very low fat vegan diet.  It's really funny how he makes fun of everyone.  I just hope he and the rest of them don't believe all the non-sense they spout.  I doubt they could.  A good many of the lord Doug devotees (otherwise known as Dog Grahamonites) will be practicing raw paleo diet soon enough.  I just hope they don't set off a nuclear bomb first, to reduce the animal (including directly the human of course) population before they think of changing diet.  
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 03:14:03 pm
What I find interesting is that, in this discussion, those who look the worst (Graham and AV) are the raw fooders, while those who look the best (Devany and Ellis) eat cooked food. It seems the way food is eaten (raw/cooked) is less important than the food in itself and the macronutrients ration of the diet.
Devany is really in perfect shape for his age with a cooked paleo Mediterranean lean diet, including veggies and fruits.

Everyone has to find the diet that works the best for him. Rawpaleo (from carnivore to omnivorous) has enough flexibility for that purpose.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on January 29, 2010, 04:05:01 pm
What I find interesting is that, in this discussion, those who look the worst (Graham and AV) are the raw fooders, while those who look the best (Devany and Ellis) eat cooked food. It seems the way food is eaten (raw/cooked) is less important than the food in itself and the macronutrients ration of the diet.
Devany is really in perfect shape for his age with a cooked paleo Mediterranean lean diet, including veggies and fruits.

Everyone has to find the diet that works the best for him. Rawpaleo (from carnivore to omnivorous) has enough flexibility for that purpose.

We could make a case for any diet, i'm sure there are world class athletes who eat S.A.D., or people over 110 years old in good health who have been eating S.A.D all their lives. What is interesting to me is the impact of diets on sick people who are trying to overcome illnesses. Looking at the health of someone who's always been healthy (such as Graham) doesn't say much. Could a sick person get better on cooked paleo? Is raw paleo the only answer?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on January 29, 2010, 04:16:35 pm
    From my experience, there can come a time, when you need to not be limited by outside things for diet.  If you are not torturing anyone, and not killing any people, you should be able to eat whatever gives you health. 

    Doug Graham is not going for health any more than he's going for making his stamp for the vegan movement.  Nothing wrong with vegan, but it's not natural, and I need natural to live and so does just about everybody. 

    For me, this whole diet this can boil down to freedom.  Do you want to be free to be healthy?  Do you want to be free to eat like other animals do?  Do you want to be free to eat like your ancestors did?  Or do you want to be free to say you'd rather die than let anyone in the world ever kill an animal?  Where is the freedom? 

    There are choices, and may there always be choices.  Teach your children to be healthy and spend time with them hunting, foraging or raising their food in fun ways.  Give them happy memories growing.  When big guys come around trying to destroy health, I want to say shoot them.  Just do the best you can to be healthy.  With health, that is what feels like true wealth. 
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Hannibal on January 29, 2010, 04:31:40 pm
What I find interesting is that, in this discussion, those who look the worst (Graham and AV) are the raw fooders, while those who look the best (Devany and Ellis) eat cooked food. It seems the way food is eaten (raw/cooked) is less important than the food in itself and the macronutrients ration of the diet. 
Those who look the best are raw fooders - e.g. Stanley Baas (91 years old) or Edward Howell (111 years old).
There are some other crucial factors - e.g. enough sleep, physical activity, happy family, etc. 
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 29, 2010, 05:40:27 pm
There's no point in showing photos of diet gurus. 1 photo may be of a guru caught after having not slept for 24 hours or having done exhausting exercise etc., another might be specially photoshopped(ie
most of them) with gurus taking steroids in order to look more muscular. In short, the attempt of the thread to claim that cooked-meat is better than raw vegan, and therefore that palaeo is better than raw falls flat. Both are equally important and missing out on either just leads to serious health-problems in the long-term.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 06:29:38 pm
There's no point in showing photos of diet gurus. 1 photo may be of a guru caught after having not slept for 24 hours or having done exhausting exercise etc., another might be specially photoshopped(ie
most of them) with gurus taking steroids in order to look more muscular. In short, the attempt of the thread to claim that cooked-meat is better than raw vegan, and therefore that palaeo is better than raw falls flat. Both are equally important and missing out on either just leads to serious health-problems in the long-term.

In general, guru want to look their best, so I doubt they would show a picture of them after a sleepless night or after an intense workout. I doubt Devany takes steroids as he is very concerned by health contrary to most of bodybuilders.
Photos (when they are not disguised) can give interesting information about health, etc, especially when they are taken at different ages, to see how the person ages...AV and Graham badly grow old.
   
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 29, 2010, 06:37:29 pm
In general, guru want to look their best, so I doubt they would show a picture of them after a sleepless night or after an intense workout. I doubt Devany takes steroids as he is very concerned by health contrary to most of bodybuilders.
Photos (when they are not disguised) can give interesting information about health, etc, especially when they are taken at different ages, to see how the person ages...AV and Graham badly grow old.
  Not true, I've seen photos of AV in an obviously impromptu setting where he is unlikely to have been photoshopped as it was just taken by a fan on the spot without promoting him as such. I haven't seen any such impromptu photos of other gurus like Greg Ellis etc. Also, there are conflicting issues such as AV's frowning on exercise which is not emulated by DeVany et al. Heavy exercise can conceal a diet's flaws to some extent. And there's just too much temptation for people to use artificial growth hormone/steroids etc. for gurus with really big muscles not to have tried it.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 07:36:14 pm
  Not true, I've seen photos of AV in an obviously impromptu setting where he is unlikely to have been photoshopped as it was just taken by a fan on the spot without promoting him as such.

Guru, even if they would like, cannot control everybody! I suspect AV was not particularly pleased with these photos. I would be curious to see them if you have them online.
So you think that guru don't generally want to look their best on their photos ?

Quote
I haven't seen any such impromptu photos of other gurus like Greg Ellis etc.
This does not mean that they don't exist.

Quote
Also, there are conflicting issues such as AV's frowning on exercise which is not emulated by DeVany et al.

Devany promotes paleo exercice as much as paleo food. The fact that AV dislikes exercice proves to me that his diet is not optimal. A good diet gives lots of energy to practise physical activity.

Quote
Heavy exercise can conceal a diet's flaws to some extent.

Agree, see Devany with his cooked diet.

Quote
And there's just too much temptation for people to use artificial growth hormone/steroids etc. for gurus with really big muscles not to have tried it.

Many gurus in health don't have big muscles. Devany started sports early in his life, and has definitely some genetic easiness to put on muscles. And he has the good technology for that.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 29, 2010, 07:41:18 pm
Exercise has nothing to do with diet. I mean one can have a great diet and be incredibly lazy and do nothing.

There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 08:00:59 pm
Exercise has nothing to do with diet. I mean one can have a great diet and be incredibly lazy and do nothing.

There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.

Of course diet has everything to do with exercice, because one needs energy, good nutrition and correct weight to sustain any physical activities. Someone incredebly lazy simply cannot be on a good diet!

AV is posing in this photo. Nothing impromptu!
I was talking about "stolen" photos. I have not found only one on Google.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 29, 2010, 08:06:10 pm
Of course diet has everything to do with exercice, because one needs energy, good nutrition and correct weight to sustain any physical activities. Someone incredebly lazy simply cannot be on a good diet!

Hmm, then you are suggesting that Lex who doesn't indulge in exercise to any real extent, is following an unhealthy diet?

Quote
AV is posing in this photo. Nothing impromptu!
I was talking about "stolen" photos. I have not found only one on Google.
Stolen photos with people turning round and gasping, you mean. Somewhat unlikely given that everyone poses for almost all photos re smiling and saying cheese. That was a rather conventional photo clearly not specially arranged with any special lighting etc.There are several others, just google-image aajonus.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 08:12:56 pm
Hmm, then you are suggesting that Lex who doesn't indulge in exercise to any real extent, is following an unhealthy diet?

Is Lex incredibly lazy ?

Quote
Stolen photos with people turning round and gasping, you mean. Somewhat unlikely given that everyone poses for almost all photos re smiling and saying cheese. That was a rather conventional photo clearly not specially arranged with any special lighting etc.There are several others, just google-image aajonus.

Well, any guru has a fan club... Many fans take stolen pictures of their beloved guru, during conferences, trip, etc.. No such photos on google for AV.

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 29, 2010, 08:26:39 pm
Is Lex incredibly lazy ?
Yes, he is. He's admitted not doing any real exercise. I mean, he may fiddle around fixing pemmican-makers or some other gadget but he reported not doing anything serious re exercise. I merely gave him as an example of someone doing a healthy diet but not bothering with the other aspects of palaeo, such as exercise.

Quote
Well, any guru has a fan club... Many fans take stolen pictures of their beloved guru, during conferences, trip, etc.. No such photos on google for AV.

Well, AV is a rather more obscure guru compared to DeVany et al so has far fewer photos, naturally. And I find that several photos of AV on the web with kieba etc. are clearly not "managed" in any way. Besides, your own definition of stolen photos is conveniently rather extreme.


[/quote]
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: goodsamaritan on January 29, 2010, 08:26:59 pm
Is Lex incredibly lazy ?

I personally am too bored with gyms and weights.  I don't enjoy this.

I run at full speed with my kids in the playground and swim in the pool with my kids.  Same with Aajonus, I like sex too. I enjoy these activities.

I just want to look lean and attractive to young women.  Bulky muscles scare young women away, you get old women instead... at least in my culture it works this way.  My gym instructor told me this.  Ah crap to bulging muscles, I want the young women.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: goodsamaritan on January 29, 2010, 08:35:10 pm
If Aajonus ages faster and looks tired, I would guess it is because of the large numbers of terminally ill patients who consult with him.

I've had my share of treating terminally ill patients and it is very taxing on the healer's own constitution.  Too much sadness, fear and negative emotions every day.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 29, 2010, 08:37:12 pm
You double-posted, GS, so I removed the 2nd post(in case you think I'm censoring your posts!)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 09:36:33 pm
Yes, he is. He's admitted not doing any real exercise. I mean, he may fiddle around fixing pemmican-makers or some other gadget but he reported not doing anything serious re exercise. I merely gave him as an example of someone doing a healthy diet but not bothering with the other aspects of palaeo, such as exercise.

Lex wrote : "I run now and then but not regularly.  I try to walk  10 – 12 miles (15-20 km) per week" so I would not said he is incredibly lazy. I mean he is not a couch potato.
But it looks like his diet does not give him the extra energy to exercice. When I feel energetic, I NEED TO MOVE MY ASS!
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 09:39:37 pm
If Aajonus ages faster and looks tired, I would guess it is because of the large numbers of terminally ill patients who consult with him.

I've had my share of treating terminally ill patients and it is very taxing on the healer's own constitution.  Too much sadness, fear and negative emotions every day.


I bet his dairy and green juice based diet has also something to do with the way he ages.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 29, 2010, 09:43:21 pm
I personally am too bored with gyms and weights.  I don't enjoy this.

I run at full speed with my kids in the playground and swim in the pool with my kids.  Same with Aajonus, I like sex too. I enjoy these activities.

I just want to look lean and attractive to young women.  Bulky muscles scare young women away, you get old women instead... at least in my culture it works this way.  My gym instructor told me this.  Ah crap to bulging muscles, I want the young women.

They are many ways to exercice, and play is probably the best one !
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: jessica on January 29, 2010, 09:58:37 pm
pre-RPD
(http://www.vegastripping.com/images/showguide_carrottop.jpg)
post-rpd!
(http://lightscameracaption.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/cut-carrot-top.jpg)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: ForTheHunt on January 29, 2010, 10:06:11 pm
Honestly, I've tried every diet under the sun. Vegan, Raw vegan, SAD, RZC, fruitarian, vegetables only.

With all these diets I looked thin, my face was hollow and I just generally looked like a pussy aswell as my energy was just so horrible that I could hardly work.

When I switched over to RZC my energy came back and I have now a stable awesome energy. Yet I had a lot of brain fog, heart palpitations and was extremely irritable.

So what I do now and makes me feel good and I feel I am healing (skins clearing and healing very fast) is eating a big fatty meaty meal before I go to bed so that my body gets plenty of calories. Also the good thing about eating before you sleep is that it helps you sleep and the meal is digested when you wake up there for you don't get the tiredness you sometimes get when digesting. Then over the day I snack a little bit on fruits. Perhaps an apple and a few carrots. That's it.

The only thing I'm trying to figure out now is whether to eat cooked meat or raw meat. I'm still a bit scared of all the "parasite" theories and so on.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: ForTheHunt on January 29, 2010, 10:07:18 pm
Honestly, I've tried every diet under the sun. Vegan, Raw vegan, SAD, RZC, fruitarian, vegetables only.

With all these diets I looked thin, my face was hollow and I just generally looked like a pussy aswell as my energy was just so horrible that I could hardly work.

When I switched over to RZC my energy came back and I have now a stable awesome energy. Yet I had a lot of brain fog, heart palpitations and was extremely irritable due to lack of carbs.

So what I do now and makes me feel good and I feel I am healing (skins clearing and healing very fast) is eating a big fatty meaty meal before I go to bed so that my body gets plenty of calories. Also the good thing about eating before you sleep is that it helps you sleep and the meal is digested when you wake up there for you don't get the tiredness you sometimes get when digesting. Then over the day I snack a little bit on fruits. Perhaps an apple and a few carrots. That's it.

The only thing I'm trying to figure out now is whether to eat cooked meat or raw meat. I'm still a bit scared of all the "parasite" theories and so on.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on January 30, 2010, 12:32:35 am
There's a photo on the web of kieba with Aajonus in Hawaii. Can't remember where, ah:-

http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Aajonus-JohnWood-0811.jpg

There are plenty of others, just use google image.

    Googled.  Right on the same site.  With Kiebs also.  The same November visit.  I believe this was eight months after a very serious incident, I direct you to the accounting of injuries and recovery care, refusal of surgery etc.  I also saw him after the injuries, about three months later or four months before the photo.  Kieba practices her Retro Raw diet.  She eats raw meat, raw milk, raw fruit, raw green salad and up to twenty percent of her diet is steamed vegetables, pop corn and coffee (from what I have heard).  She wrote recipe books and sells them on raw foods, a book for adults, a book for children, etc.

    (http://www.bodytemplebootcamp.com/images/Kieba-Aajonus-RawGame-Kickoff-1001.jpg)
    "Kieba and Aajonus Speaking at the Raw Game 2008 Kickoff"
    in the picture he is 61 +xmos she is literally about 50 y/o (they both started raw meat         after long close brushes with death)

    Sure, if you can eat a diet that gets you doing
 whatever exercises you want to, fine, do it.  In some situations you may need raw diet, but one that will work whether you exercise or not.  

    The Doug Graham all raw diet, you have to exercise or you will fail right away.  He charges $10,000USD/3wks water fasting, a good time to program you when your brain receives no glucose nor other energy.  

    With cooked meat you need extra exercise too.  

    With RAF based diet all raw exercise is easy but even without the exercise muscles grow and maintain.  

    Aajonus is busy fighting chemtrails, fighting for raw food rights for the US (as politicians act as tricksters over and over at opportune times to take them away), and he travels to several countries each year (it seems to me) and not "just for fun".  He also does experiments to learn more about raw foods and publishes it in newsletters, so if he prefers not to exercise, I excuse him.  He doesn't even try to make money on most of these things, from what I know.  

    Raw milk is made by mothers for babies that sleep more than adults that make hormones for growing.  That's what raw milk does, it gives certain energies that some people need for a time or prefer.  

    I don't suppose many of the people reading or responding to this have developed multiple stage four system cancers at the same time before taking up raw foods.  It's more than food that is needed to cure.  Some may feel better than curing themselves quickly than their roll is to help more people in whatever capacity they are set up to.  Each person has a different role.  Pretty much, it's all good (IMV).  

edit: changed months part of their ages to be more vague. @__:09 PM time 1/29/2010 Fri
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 30, 2010, 06:36:03 am
....    For me, this whole diet this can boil down to freedom.  Do you want to be free to be healthy?  Do you want to be free to eat like other animals do?  Do you want to be free to eat like your ancestors did? ....
I like that quote.

My point completely failed to get across to Tyler and possibly others. I'm not saying those photos prove that an obligate or near-obligate carnivore diet is the way to go for everyone or anything like that. I have never said that. As a matter of fact I have frequently explained that I never intend that in any way, shape or form. In general I'm not about promoting things for others (unless they ask--and even then I try to encourage them to seek and decide for themselves) and telling people what to do. I'm not into dogma. I'm about asking questions, refuting extreme claims, posing hypotheses and looking for data. Doug Graham and his followers make extreme claims which his photo vs. Art's call into question. They don't prove anything, but they should make you go "Hmmmm."

You'd never know what Graham looks like from his followers. I've never seen them show his photo. Why is that, I wonder? Do you think maybe it's because he looks like crap? This sort of information should be put out for all to see and judge for themselves. Hiding it raises questions.

I'm not promoting any particular diet for others, but In the interests of promoting fairness and avoiding misunderstanding, I'll note anyway that Dr. Cordain and Dr. Harris don't look as good for their age as Dr. De Vany does. I think they would probably admit that, too.

When I do something like posit that maybe humans are facultative faunivores or meat-oriented omnivores, I'm not telling you what to eat, I'm hypothesizing and inviting folks to add data pro or con so I can put my speculations to the test. I don't have a firm opinion and the opinions I do have can change as I receive more data.

When do I think we can "know for certain" that we've found an optimal diet? Never. Instead I seek what works best for me and hope for the best. I may act like I've found the certain "truth" for practical reasons, but I recognize that new evidence or changing circumstances may change what seemed like the "truth." I hope that this time I've cleared this up.

I had hoped that my current signature would have helped make this clearer, but signatures are pretty small, so maybe no one noticed mine. Admittedly, I often don't read other people's signatures until long after I've been reading their posts.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on January 30, 2010, 10:02:08 am
    Thank you.

    And no, if you thought I was upset about anything, I'm not.

I like that quote.

My point completely failed to get across to Tyler and possibly others. I'm not saying those photos prove that an obligate or near-obligate carnivore diet is the way to go for everyone or anything like that. I have never said that. As a matter of fact I have frequently explained that I never intend that in any way, shape or form. In general I'm not about promoting things for others (unless they ask--and even then I try to encourage them to seek and decide for themselves) and telling people what to do. I'm not into dogma. I'm about asking questions, refuting extreme claims, posing hypotheses and looking for data. Doug Graham and his followers make extreme claims which his photo vs. Art's call into question. They don't prove anything, but they should make you go "Hmmmm."

...

I'm not promoting any particular diet for others, but In the interests of promoting fairness and avoiding misunderstanding, I'll note anyway that Dr. Cordain and Dr. Harris don't look as good for their age as Dr. De Vany does. I think they would probably admit that, too.

When I do something like posit that maybe humans are facultative faunivores or meat-oriented omnivores, I'm not telling you what to eat, I'm hypothesizing and inviting folks to add data pro or con so I can put my speculations to the test. I don't have a firm opinion and the opinions I do have can change as I receive more data.

When do I think we can "know for certain" that we've found an optimal diet? Never. Instead I seek what works best for me and hope for the best. I may act like I've found the certain "truth" for practical reasons, but I recognize that new evidence or changing circumstances may change what seemed like the "truth." I hope that this time I've cleared this up.

I had hoped that my current signature would have helped make this clearer, but signatures are pretty small, so maybe no one noticed mine. Admittedly, I often don't read other people's signatures until long after I've been reading their posts.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 30, 2010, 10:22:10 am
RawZi, I think your comment points out well the problem that a number of our critics seem to have. I don't have a problem with their not wanting to eat like us, but that is not sufficient for some of them. Some of them want to tell us how to eat as well, and if we don't follow their prescriptions they label us as fanatics, fools or fiends before they've even learned much about our way of eating and why we do it. I've never understood this lack of curiosity and rush to judgment. That seat-of-the-pants style of thinking has never appealed to me.

Before I said anything critical about Graham or 80-10-10 I learned what it was about and read posts from its adherents and proponents. I found the arguments to be emotional and unscientific and the adherents to be a sad lot of sickly, complaining folk. I harbor more pity than ill will toward them, because I think they really believe in the self-destructive diet they are following and they are doing it largely for reasons they see as ethical rather than for health reasons. Their intentions appear to be good. Yet our critics don't seem to put nearly the effort into learning about us that I did in learning about them and their WOE (which I also knew something about from past brief vegetarian experiences). They seem to feel the need to dismiss RPD out of hand without even investigating it. I find this unthinking approach puzzling and unappealing.

There are exceptions, of course. Amir seemed to be one. While he was not averse to insulting some of our lot, he did at least ask questions, including pointed questions to the proponents of fruitarian dogma. He had a skeptical side that was quite appealing to me. I enjoy challenging questions when they are honest, at least somewhat open-minded, and not too insulting.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on January 30, 2010, 11:21:05 am
    A sad lot, they're just children.  They were raised on Kraft macaroni and diet soda unfortunately and are mixed up.

    I like being whole.  I did become vegan and stay vegan for decades, but even in the exact same moment I became vegan I did it with not only animal health in mind but my own too.  I knew I had worth so I not only imparted my worth on the animals, but what they deserve I deserve.  We all die sometime.  They get to live, I get to live.  They get to eat what makes them healthy, I get to eat what makes me healthy.  Animals shouldn't feel guilty for eating and I won't either. 

    Maybe we're more evolved than the 80/10/10ists.  Maybe they are an earlier stage.  Maybe like almost all embryos of all animals look alike but develop differently afterward, maybe one group of humans is like that from another.  Maybe humans were frugivores.  Maybe the 811ers got that right.  Then maybe humans evolved further to eating meat.  I do not believe that eating natural raw meat puts extra stress on the Earth.  I have to add that; because the Grahamonites may be reading this, and get the wrong idea.  Anyway, if evolving to being more advanced went from frugivore to us, and embryos start through the same stages then develop to look like various animals, then maybe we are able to learn their way and still do what's right, but they cannot even try to comprehend our way; because we are the future, their brains are just not developed enough. 

    It's like us thinking we can think like bottlenose dolphins.  We can't.  We have a different complexity of connections between the brain cells.  We are not them.  We are each made differently for reasons.  Some 811ists believe and teach that means we don't have a right to live.  I believe differently, that each has beauty.  We are human and might do well to support each other in best of health.         

    I just feel sorry for Faychesca.  I saw that look in his eyes in his video.  He had a sadistic get-off-on-her fear look when he told of how she was surprised when he told her that other humans eat animals.  Then he looks so insecure when he talks about other things on video.  I hope baby Fay only gets the good.  I felt for her, she must have felt scared when dad got so happy saying outside people eat her friends that she feeds bread to.  I wonder too, why did they have bread in the house after he wrote Grain Damage?

    Sure Doug's skin looks terrible, but his body is fairly muscular.  He manages on his diet, but it's certainly not for everyone.  You're right.  He and his followers push their diet on other people for stomach/guilt chakra's sake.  That is not a right thing to do.  They need healing in their guts.  They have to eat 3,500 per day at least in fruit fiber just to push things along; because their peristaltic muscles don't work.  They get very worn out.  It shows on their faces and organs.  They are full of fear and disgust.  They may jump around like they are on cloud nine, but they can't handle any other emotions.  They are very imbalanced.  I wish them healing.   

RawZi, I think your comment points out well the problem that a number of our critics seem to have. I don't have a problem with their not wanting to eat like us, but that is not sufficient for some of them. Some of them want to tell us how to eat as well, and if we don't follow their prescriptions they label us as fanatics or fools before they've even learned ...

... ethical rather than for health reasons. Their intentions appear to be good. Our critics don't seem to put nearly the effort into learning about us that I did in learning about them and their WOE (which I also knew something about from past brief vegetarian experiences).
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: redfulcrum on January 30, 2010, 11:47:02 am
Aajonus looks skinny fat.  I know he's big on the raw milk thing.  I'm sure he's a healthy dude.  I'm sorry, if you're paleo you have to have muscles.  You have to look like a hunter, not some dude with a 9to5 desk job.  I wonder how far can he throw a javelin. 
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 30, 2010, 12:04:55 pm
Oops! I know it's well intentioned, but if at all possible I'd rather we didn't speculate critically too much about how our critics raise their children. I could be wrong, but I think that's pretty much an off-limits area in modern Western versions of "civil discourse."
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 30, 2010, 05:28:43 pm
Other than the aspects of the thread re ZC, I should add that whitebox/amir was definitely a troll, and it was quite right that he was banned, in the end. He said a number of very unpleasant things about a number of members(even of  PP who foolishly supported him, it seems).  But the ultimate point is that photos of gurus mean absolutely nothing since most/all of them could/would have been photoshopped etc.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 30, 2010, 09:18:01 pm
Other than the aspects of the thread re ZC, I should add that whitebox/amir was definitely a troll, and it was quite right that he was banned, in the end. He said a number of very unpleasant things about a number of members(even of  PP who foolishly supported him, it seems).  But the ultimate point is that photos of gurus mean absolutely nothing since most/all of them could/would have been photoshopped etc.
Well he never characterized my posts or behavior as foolish and I didn't mind his questioning whether I might have aggressive qualities from meat eating, but I'm not defending his behavior toward others, and I don't want to debate further whether Amir was a troll or not, as that is a done deal.

Your self-anointed "ultimate point" to this thread appears based completely on your own imagination without evidence. There are multiple photos and videos of both men online. If you don't believe these then check into it yourself. The image of Graham was taken from the RenegadeHealthShow video by Kevin Gianni. You can watch the video here and decide for yourself whether you think every frame in the video was photoshopped: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMjcXQyiSQw&feature=PlayList&p=DB01BE52EFE1D482&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=17

The real ultimate point I was trying to make is that the video images of Graham raise questions about the extreme claims of Graham and his followers, as do the numerous posts about health problems at fruitarian/vegan forums. I'm not saying they prove anything, I'm saying they raise questions. We have some health problems here at RPD, but nowhere near to the extent that the fruitarian forums do, and this was something that an undecided semi-fruitarian reported and asked about at a Graham-promoting 80-10-10 forum, BTW. That's the sort of question that needs to be asked--why do RPDers seem to fare better than 80-10-10ers? If we don't question things and instead simply try to make up excuses to defend Graham's appearance or his views then I think we make a major mistake of lack of critical thinking.

BTW, I don't know Dr. Graham and assume him to be well intentioned (he appears to believe so strongly in his diet, for example, that it looks like he is following it to the detriment of his own health), so I'm not trying to criticize him personally, just questioning his claims and views. I came across the video and had never seen his image before (and now that I've seen it I can see why 80-10-10ers don't display it much), so I was shocked at how poor he looks for his age.

No one made any guesses, so I'll reveal that the ages of De Vany and Graham were quite close at the times of those images, if the sources are correct. De Vany has aged more since that photo and is significantly older than Graham, but seems to be aging more "gracefully" than Graham. Granted, people could point to Dr. Cordain and Ray Audette's images and say they don't look all that great, and Art's diet is not completely raw, so I'm not using De Vany's image to claim it proves that an RPD diet is good, I'm again just raising questions about Graham's 80-10-10 doctrine. I'm also not asking people to instantly accept my take on this. Check out the images of Graham vs. De Vany or other meat eaters like the Eades, and some 80-10-10/fruitarian/vegan forums, yourself and decide for yourself whether you accept Graham's claims.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on January 30, 2010, 09:45:38 pm
I did the 80/10/10 diet for 5 months and my body was always so cold, especially my limbs. I had to take 2-3 hot showers a day to feel better. That went away when i switched to cooked-ZC except that my hands and feet would still get cold after drinking water, even lukewarm water, that problem dissapeared after only 1 week on raw ZC.

Also on 80/10/10, at 1st i'd have 2-3 bowel movement a day which i i read was a good thing. After a couple of weeks, i had 4, then 5... and finally up to 6 a day near the end, IS THAT NOT INSANE? I was no longer digesting fruit. I tried to eat more, i'd just shit more and i kept losing weight, I was 58 kg when i realized that it wasn't working at all. Ironically, i had the opposite problem when i switched to cooked-zc, sometimes i didn't go to the bathroom for a week. Went from 6 times/day to once a week LOL.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Paleo Donk on January 30, 2010, 10:57:54 pm
Hmm, I always pronounced it CAN-did-a, almost like canada.

Pictures of diet gurus don't mean much unless they have lived for a significant time on their diet, 20+ years, and even then its still not likely to give us much information since they haven't eaten that way since birth. The bear is one decent example, now having 50 years of carnivorous eating. I remember in the original  "bear" thread, he stated how he had few wrinkles and then when I google imaged him there was a picture of him when he was 62  that showed plenty of wrinkles and he looked just about his age. This picture seemed to have vanished. I was quite dissapointed as he made it seem like this diet had made him invincible. Another picture (well not ever confirmed that it was him) surfaced on the zero carb board. He wasn't looking at the camera but looked again his age, around 72 I believe. He also claimed to be 5% body fat and lift heavy weights twice a week. A video of him doing so would go quite a ways. I thought I would be dunking on kids 50 years younger than me, but maybe this isn't meant to be.

And Tyler, could you come up with one image you think is photoshopped?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 30, 2010, 11:41:34 pm
The Bear :

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GKjFiXzbjZE/Rrj-XLEA4NI/AAAAAAAAAT4/Nsq_xZP-ZhE/s320/bear-s.jpg)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Paleo Donk on January 30, 2010, 11:57:57 pm
Yes, thats it and from what I remember that was from 1999 and hes actually 64. For some reason it isn't showing up in the google image searches anymore. I started reading some of his thread again and it completely amazes me how much terminology hes capable of throwing around. Its like every post I see terms I've never heard of before.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on January 31, 2010, 01:45:00 am
Yes, thats it and from what I remember that was from 1999 and hes actually 64. For some reason it isn't showing up in the google image searches anymore. I started reading some of his thread again and it completely amazes me how much terminology hes capable of throwing around. Its like every post I see terms I've never heard of before.

On the first page of google image (Search Owsley "Bear" Stanley)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on January 31, 2010, 01:54:39 am
This is all pointless. It's a suicidal move to judge one's diet from the appearance of a guru on a photo. No one can seriously claim the photo is or isn't photoshopped, so why bother?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Paleo Donk on January 31, 2010, 02:19:33 am
You were the one proclaiming that most pictures were shopped. It should be pretty easy to find one if that were the case.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Hannibal on January 31, 2010, 03:13:24 am
I too think that it is pointless. That's definitely not statistically significant, how one person looks like.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: William on January 31, 2010, 04:30:52 am
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

IMO, Bear wins the beauty contest.   ;)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on January 31, 2010, 04:36:38 am
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

IMO, Bear wins the beauty contest.   ;)

    I showed bear's picture from here to my vegan dieted husband.  He says bear looks good.

    Thanks for posting bear's pic.  :)
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: invisible on January 31, 2010, 06:49:33 am
Judging diet by appearance is silly, since the bone development and appearance while growing effects how you look as an adult. People with symmetrical well developed faces will always look better and younger. Paleo people had good faces because they started their diet from birth which is the most important time with regards to appearance, while most gurus and followers of obscure diets begin once they have already grown. Someone could come here and say SAD is the most superior diet showing pictures of people who follow SAD and look better than anyone in this thread, but of course it would be irrelevant.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: redfulcrum on February 01, 2010, 09:05:57 am
Screw the face.  We all know that we weren't "raised" right in the first place.  I know I'm not perfect.  I have physical flaws, but I work with what I have left.  The body, you have control over that.  Condition of hair, skin, eyes, and teeth, you have control over that.  I can look at people walking down the street and point out their deficiencies.  Nobody should have bad breath or have yellow teeth.  Nobody should have to wear deoderant.  Technically, there's no real reason to bathe.  Nobody should have acne either.  Everyone can have beautiful hair if they ate right.  Most of all, nobody should be fat.  It's almost impossible to be fat eating paleo.  Who the heck can sit around and eat fat all day.  I have so much energy I just want to run out and do something all the time.  Diet can change your body very quickly.  It doesn't take years to get your body to become healthy again, but it does take years to see a sub-optimal diet to degrade the body.  If you don't look, feel, think, act better after a diet change, then your diet is not working. 
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 01, 2010, 10:05:24 am
... you have control over that.  Condition of hair, skin, eyes, and teeth, you have control over that.  I can look at people walking down the street and point out their deficiencies.  Nobody should have bad breath or have yellow teeth.  ...  Nobody should have acne either.  ...  I have so much energy I just want to run out and do something all the time.  Diet can change your body very quickly.  It doesn't take years to get your body to become healthy again, but it does take years to see a sub-optimal diet to degrade the body.  If you don't look ... better after a diet change, then your diet is not working. 

    I read all the different forums.  Seems it arises quite often that people practicing 80/10/10 have to detox their teeth out of their heads first.  I'm kidding.  But really, many, their teeth start falling out after starting the diet even though they did not have bad teeth before.  Many, their acne gets worse.  I know plenty say after three to five days of the diet everything in their health straightened out and they have never had a health problem ever again and everyone else must be cheating on the diet or something like that otherwise they would have their exact same results.  I think that attitude is ridiculous, in that I have lived long enough to know two people can eat the same food side by side and get possibly "surprisingly" different results.  There are many more factors in life than present diet.  Some may manage with 80/10/10 fine, and maybe even repair a couple of complaints by it, at least for the time being.

    Yeah, and I know what you mean.  I never thought hair color or whatever matters for attractiveness.  The three top points I was always interested in had nothing to do with genetics.  Point one I expect people to have clarity in their eyes.  Point two I expect they carry themselves well, excellent posture.  Point three good teeth/breath (no minty or other cover either).  If there was a point four it would be no fat showing on the body, but the first three are more important.  Healthy skin of course is always attractive too.  No one is moved to reach out and touch abused skin.

    Diet is a lifetime course.  Many people point at the Okinawans.  They are longer lived people than many of us.  Many try to copy their diet in one way or another.  It's not just their diet why they live longer.  It's many factors.  They look a lot younger for their ages too, even in their faces from pics I've seen.  SAD doesn't do that, and neither does 80/10/10.  Many get a lot of lines on their faces, brown spots, overly tightness to the point of their discomfort etc.  I know it's not fair because I've never seen a pic of a 110 year old 80/10/10er, but at thirty-seven they start to look old, when they did not before.  From what I've seen you need RAF and make sure to include non-grain outdoor raised in the grass raw animal fats too, to look healthy past that age, in most cases. 

    My Mom looked in her twenties way way past that age (I dont mean 110 mean past 30s) and she ate a cooked meat paleo diet (I include in that raw vegetables and raw fruit), and never did anything for her (skin) health (or bodyfat ratio) besides her WOE and lots of physical activity.  I'm not endorsing her diet for everyone here, or even anyone, but it works better than 80/10/10 in many cases I've seen.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 01, 2010, 12:34:14 pm
I’ll repeat that I’m not saying the images PROVE anything, just that they raise questions. Isn’t it OK to raise questions in a free society or forum? No one has said that Graham on his own is statistically significant, so this is not about statistics. I just find that his appearance raises some questions about his claims—as do some of his own supporters.

Pictures of diet gurus don't mean much unless they have lived for a significant time on their diet, 20+ years....

GRAHAM HAS BEEN A RAW VEGAN FOR 30+ YEARS
Well, Graham says he has been eating raw vegan for 30 years (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmcYRSvwGM&feature=player_embedded --BTW, it looks like he has unusual swelling in his jaw area in this video--any idea what that is?), so that more than meets your test. Don't these images raise questions for you when at the same time his aging is accelerating, a guru makes broad or extreme claims like:

SOME OF GRAHAM’S BROAD OR EXTREME CLAIMS (emphases mine):
> "Are you ready to experience the health and vitality expressed by our anthropoid [monkey, ape and human] cousins? If so, you must be willing to eat a low-fat raw vegan diet, similar to what they follow." –D.G. “The low fat diet in a nutshell”
> "For me, there is no going back." –D.G “What Are You Passionate About?” [Regardless of whatever health damage might be done and regardless of the scientific evidence?]
> "If you would like to see your health and fitness blossom, it is time to merge science with philosophy by eating a low-fat raw vegan diet." –D.G. “The Low-Fat Diet in a Nutshell” [The message is not restricted to just some people or qualified in any way, implying this diet is for everyone. This quote raises the question, does DG’s own health look like it’s blossoming well for his age?]
> "The low-fat diet (a maximum of roughly ten percent of total calories consumed) is universally recommended for maximum health and fitness results, by those health experts who consistently help people reverse disease and live vibrant lives." [This is actually a highly controversial view.]
FROM The 80/10/10 Diet:
> "a high-fat diet is...nutrient poor"
> "Like all other primates, we were made to function perfectly on the amount of nutrients found in fruits and vegetables, in the quantities that we would eat those foods whole." [Notice that he doesn’t say “well” or “optimally”— he says “perfectly”]
> "Too much protein in our diets is associated with all manner of health impairments, including ... premature aging...." p. 94 [He also points to “excitotoxins” as accelerating aging. This raises the question, that if too much protein and excitotoxins is the major cause, then why is he prematurely aging?]

Surely no one would suggest that we just accept the excuses made for him without question? A Graham supporter wrote that Graham admits that he looks old for his age and that Graham claims it is due to bad genes he inherited from his parents, so there’s another reason the photoshop remark is a red herring, in addition my earlier point of it being from a video rather than a single still image. The video in which Graham looks the worst is one made by Paul Nison, who is a personal friend of Graham. Neither Graham himself, nor his supporters claim that the multiple videos on the Internet created by people friendly toward him are photoshopped, so that claim is a ridiculous red herring until someone can provide some actual evidence or a motive or a claim by Graham or his supporters that he was photoshopped. Which is more likely: that multiple entire videos that Graham voluntarily participated in and that were put up by people friendly toward him were photoshopped, without any complaint from him or his supporters, or that Tyler might be mistaken?

There's lots to respond to here, so more to come...
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 01, 2010, 02:06:13 pm
GRAHAM HAS BEEN A RAW VEGAN FOR 30+ YEARS

    Raw vegan supporters of his who know him personally have told me in the last few months that he was not raw vegan for 30 some odd years, but little more than fifteen years.  I know Nison is claimed to be raw vegan 15 years and I believe it.  I do mean Doug.  I was recently told he's been  100% raw vegan about 15 years.  Of course, I do not know Graham, so I don't know this with my own eyes.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on February 01, 2010, 03:50:40 pm
I was just watching Durianrider's newest videos and compared em to his oldest video, 1.5 years ago. Is it just me or did he age quite a bit, look paler, no glow, hallow cheeks? All in 1.5 year.


July 2008   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23THXDPAKc&NR=1


January 2010 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7gae6k6tLY     

January 2010 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Cy8OwoD1Y
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 01, 2010, 03:54:42 pm
... Is it just me or did he age quite a bit, look paler, no glow, hallow cheeks?

    In the videos you presented, he looks "whiter colored" now. 
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on February 01, 2010, 06:06:28 pm
One only has to look at that photo of The Bear to see how utterly dubious photos etc. are re judging peoples' health. He looks great, yet it seems he's had throat-cancer and, interestingly, heart-disease, and lord knows what other health-problems which he hasn't mentioned yet.

There are other obvious considerations.Physical appearance is not an accurate way to  judge health for the whole of the body. For example, if one had seen photos of me pre-rawpalaeodiet, one would have seen a very fat but jovial figure with lots of fat around the face giving an extremely deceptive healthier look than the scrawny red-eyed sad-looking photo I took many months into the RPD diet. Pre-RPD, I'd had terrible health-problems, many of which were quickly solved within months of going rawpalaeo, but a superficial person looking at those pics would make the wrong decision based on such evaluation.

And there is the genetics issue. I have come across studies claiming that parental characteristics such as decreased aging rate re reduced numbers of wrinkles can be passed on to descendants.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: ForTheHunt on February 01, 2010, 06:24:33 pm
One only has to look at that photo of The Bear to see how utterly dubious photos etc. are re judging peoples' health. He looks great, yet it seems he's had throat-cancer and, interestingly, heart-disease, and lord knows what other health-problems which he hasn't mentioned yet.

There are other obvious considerations.Physical appearance is not an accurate way to  judge health for the whole of the body. For example, if one had seen photos of me pre-rawpalaeodiet, one would have seen a very fat but jovial figure with lots of fat around the face giving an extremely deceptive healthier look than the scrawny red-eyed sad-looking photo I took many months into the RPD diet. Pre-RPD, I'd had terrible health-problems, many of which were quickly solved within months of going rawpalaeo, but a superficial person looking at those pics would make the wrong decision based on such evaluation.

And there is the genetics issue. I have come across studies claiming that parental characteristics such as decreased aging rate re reduced numbers of wrinkles can be passed on to descendants.

I might be wrong but doesn't he only eat cooked meat? Also he smokes if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure those are the reasons for his problems.

Also wow.. Doug Graham looks awful. I mean, wow. And that other guys looks have definitely gone down hill since he vent vegan.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on February 01, 2010, 06:59:14 pm
So how old is Doug Graham?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: cherimoya_kid on February 01, 2010, 10:15:34 pm
Graham was born in March of 1953.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 02, 2010, 12:12:40 am
... And that other guys looks have definitely gone down hill since he vent vegan.

    For the hunt, which other guy?  I think you may have the amount of time he's claimed to be raw vegan mixed up, if he's who I think you mean.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: ForTheHunt on February 02, 2010, 12:39:14 am
I was talking about DurianRider whos videos were posted in this thread
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 02, 2010, 01:22:46 am
I was talking about DurianRider whos videos were posted in this thread

    He turned Vegan in 2001.  He turned NHraw vegan in 2005.  He tells his followers that following his diet there is no need for B12 supplementation, yet to please your doctor, it's ok to take the shots.  He took his most recent course of B12 shots in November.

MSNBC AU9 June 8, 2007
Quote
Harley Johnstone is an extreme vegan. The 29-year-old endurance cyclist went cold turkey on poultry and meat six years ago and is now a total fruit and nut fan. "I wanted more so I went raw and I haven't looked back since."
His vegan diet excludes any kind of meat product whatsoever, so that means that eggs, cheese and dairy are out.

Nathan Smith is completely at the opposite end of the spectrum — he's our extreme meat-eater and butcher. He tried giving meat up once, but couldn't stay off the cattle truck. "I lost about 15 kilos. I just lost too much weight so I went back on it."
Nathan gets through a staggering half a kilo of meat a day!

Jaime Selva's also a butcher, but he only eats lean meat about four times a week. "The best thing I like about meat is the flavour and nutrients it gives me to get through my day."
Edwina Searle is our last candidate she's all about balance — Edwina eats a combo of meat, fruit and veggies. "I don't believe in an all or nothing kind of diet. I think you've got to have your protein, you've got to have minerals and vitamins from other sources and we're made to eat meat."
So whose diet is the healthiest? Well, regardless of what our volunteers think — their blood tells the true story.

We checked their cholesterol for heart health and compared their levels of iron, zinc, protein and Vitamin B12 — which are all essential ingredients for long term health.

Dietitian Susie Burrell oversaw the test and was especially concerned about the non-meat eaters: "They are eliminating a large number of food groups, so the vitamins B12, iron, zinc are again at risk, so they're the two that we'll be looking at most closely to make sure they aren't at risk of any nutrient deficiencies."

Results

So how did our candidates go with their blood tests?

Edwina
"Well, the good news is everything is completely normal and you're a picture of health according to your blood test," says Susie.

Jaime
Now remember, he mainly eats lean cuts of meat about four times a week.

"Your cholesterol is all normal, your iron, your B12, your zinc, as we would expect from a regular meat-eater, again all normal and everything's looking pretty good. You're pretty fit and healthy at the moment," says Susie.

So it seems lean is clean but what of our other carnivore?

Nathan
This blokes eats just about anything with a pulse — three to four kilos a week of meat regardless of whether it's lean, fat or chunky.

"Unfortunately your cholesterol is abnormally high. So fatty minces and sausages really do add a significant amount of saturated fats to your dietary intake which could be directly impacting on your cholesterol level," says Susie.

Normal cholesterol levels range from 3.9 to 5.5, but Nathan's is already 5.6 which is a wake up call.

"I will change my diet a bit. I will look at eating more walnuts and fish oil and looking at lowering the cholesterol and cutting the fat out a bit more seriously now," says Nathan.

Now it's onto our vegetarians.

Mark
He eats animal products like milk and eggs — it's meat Mark avoids.

"The fantastic thing to note with your results is that your HDL cholesterol which is the good cholesterol, the type that clears out the bad cholesterol in the blood stream, is really high, abnormally high, which means that you're pretty healthy so you're in really good nick," says Susie.

That's a huge tick for a balanced vegetarian diet, but what of Harley our strict vegan?

Harley
Remember, Harley completely cuts out anything to do with animal products and relies purely on raw fruit, veggies and nuts.

His results have got Susie really worried: "My biggest concern is that your vitamin B12 is one of the lowest clinical levels we have ever seen!"

Harley's B12 was just 78. That's drastically lower than the normal intake range from 145 to 637 and means our vegan could be susceptible to anaemia, blurry vision and loss of feeling in the hands and feet in the long term.

"In the case of vegans, it's really up to them if they decide to supplement with B12. It is primarily from animal-based food so it's probably worth him discussing it with his GP or medical specialist," says Susie.

On the positive side the rest of Harley's results were perfectly normal.

Conclusion So, Mark, Edwina and Jaime have healthy diets but Mark gets a special mention for having lots of the right kind of cholesterol. In fact, recent studies have shown that a balanced vegetarian diet can often reduce cholesterol levels.

The main message for Nathan and Harley is; if you're going to be an extreme meat eater or vegan, you have to accept there may be health consequences.

    (http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/64/m_1a19ad9480246a0e684659d273a04569.jpg)
    According to this picture taken in 2006 he is now 34.  He claims on his site to be now 32 like the article, and that this picture is indeed him.  I think he looks pretty good in the picture.  
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 02, 2010, 08:00:18 am
   Raw vegan supporters of his who know him personally have told me in the last few months that he was not raw vegan for 30 some odd years, but little more than fifteen years.  I know Nison is claimed to be raw vegan 15 years and I believe it.  I do mean Doug.  I was recently told he's been  100% raw vegan about 15 years.  Of course, I do not know Graham, so I don't know this with my own eyes.
OK, thanks. It’s surprising I haven’t seen vegans give that excuse yet.

EXCUSES MADE FOR GRAHAM’S APPEARANCE:
Attempts have been made by his supporters to explain his accelerated aging, but they seem more excuses born of desperation than logic. As I mentioned above, one excuse made for Graham’s aging is that it is due to genes, rather than environment. Graham devotees at FoodnSport wrote: "We believe that health is the birthright of each individual and is the result of lifestyle choices and environmental factors." So that sort of throws the bad genes excuse for his accelerated aging out the window, right?
Other excuses given include:
> "As long as he feels good though, then who cares."
> "he has previously said that he overdoes the sun-worship and we all know how aging that can be...he was also a very ill child...who knows what effects that has had...we aren't all handed the best genes....another factor....he also works , by all accounts, way too much and doesn't get the adequate rest that he advocates" [The sun-worship argument was responded to with the next point below by another raw vegan]

EVEN SOME 811ERS AND OTHER RAW VEGANS HAVE BEEN ADMITTING THAT GRAHAM DOESN'T LOOK TOO HOT AND EVEN MAKING THE SAME COMPARISONS THAT I HAVE!:
>  “I'd compare Doug [Graham] to someone else his same age, who is also a long-time athlete and has been in the sun his whole life like Mark Sisson: Mark Sisson on TV: View from the Bay  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYmVAdaS7QU&feature=player_embedded [Mark clearly looks better for his age than Graham in this "Shun Whole Grains" feature,” despite Mark also having engaged in a lot of sun worship]
> “Or Art De Vany, another sun worshipper and a paleo dieter” http://api.ning.com/files/NmqOOfzqPf9xyJqElm-TqHdLu58WYFpnCFobF5IKTVQycPHrGuMk**zaIQqkbSJjjquf9FjjUmeBEc0ncn96gBc1DzV2LJy3/ArtDeVany3.png [De Vany also looks better than Graham in this png image that won't show up here]
> "I think the effects of advanced glycation are catching up with Doug"
> "Doug doesn't even look healthy any more"
> "a number of fruitarian ladies I've seen pics of who I guessed to be anywhere from 7-12 years older than they actually were (these were long termer's like Doug, so I felt the comparison was somewhat fair). They all had very similar types of aging going on."
> "he looks very odd and much older than his age unfortunately. I guess it is not looks that count at the end, but the actual health and how a person feels. Comment about him having lots of dental work worries me slightly, as my gums got a lot worse when I was eating only fruit. I am new to this, but only have seen a couple of people, who look truly healthy and radiant (all women)."
> “…if someone has been raw for 30 years, they should look good right? I mean, there is no way that my skin is going to ever be line free. … I've accepted that. But, many of these people have been raw for years and never had all of the bad habits that I had. They should have fantastic skin. But, if someone has been raw for 30-40 years, in my eyes they should look glowing...don't you agree? I'm not saying they have to be handsome or beautiful, what I am saying is that they should have clear eyes, clear skin, etc.”

Note: One of the threads in the raw vegan forum where these admissions and concerns were starting to pile up got deleted.

GRAHAM IS NOT AN ISOLATED PHENOMENON:
Should we also accept without question the excuses made for the followers of Graham's 811 (short for 80-10-10) diet and other extreme raw vegan gurus and dieters who appear to age rapidly or otherwise deteriorate, such as these quotes indicate…
> I think he [Graham] looks very odd and much older than his age unfortunately. I guess it is not looks that count at the end, but the actual health and how a person feels. Comment about him having lots of dental work worries me slightly, as my gums got a lot worse when I was eating only fruit. I am new to this, but only have seen a couple of people [ie, 811 dieters], who look truly healthy and radiant (all women).
> "As for folks looking older cos they eat fruit,im unsure about that,there are so many factors to ageing,genetics being one,lifestyle choices,too much sun,not enough sun,def not enough sleep,and too much stress."
> “I think our perception of what healthy looks like is a little warped by society's standards. I do agree however that some of these raw [vegan/vegetarian] gurus look malnourished and rather frail. Maybe they are missing vital nutrients, arent getting enough variety or are eating raw foods that hurt more than they help.”
> “When I did 811 I would eat 3000-4000 calories and still be hungry, so I had to step back and re-evaluate my diet.”

...or should we instead ask whether diet might be a factor, rather than excluding it from consideration? Why do the apologists only exclude diet when Graham's book suggests that diet is very important? As you can see, multiple raw vegans are distressed by the rapid aging of both Graham’s and other fruitarian-oriented raw vegans.

MORE COMPARISON IMAGES:
Again, while this doesn’t “prove” anything, it is interesting to compare earlier vs. later photos for the Bear, De Vany and Graham...

The Bear as a young man: (http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/07/12/mn_sanfrancisco.jpg)
The Bear in 1999? at age 64?: (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GKjFiXzbjZE/Rrj-XLEA4NI/AAAAAAAAAT4/Nsq_xZP-ZhE/s320/bear-s.jpg)
I'm guessing that this is one of Bear's better photos, right? Does anyone have access to any of his poorer photos of recent years that were referred to?

Art De Vany, reportedly age 60: (http://www.bryanappleyard.com/blog/uploaded_images/artRun-785346.jpg)

Ar De Vany, age 71: (http://smarterfitter.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/skitched-20080903-172641.jpg)

Ar De Vany, age 71: (png image doesn't display): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3Hk10MXU4MI/SyUk9XgVI1I/AAAAAAAAAEw/l_xTFQbucDU/s400/Art-DeVany.png

Ar De Vany, age 72: (http://www.arthurdevany.com/custom/DSC01185.JPG) He's finally noticeably aging a bit, but not much.

Doug Graham years ago: (http://www.lifesavescience.org/VeganEating/DouglasGraham.JPG)
Doug Graham recently: (http://api.ning.com/files/oSXuhnfhRKAZ-sj3K83-Jv49YLHDkz51LlFtqik1xTe4-y4*8KlUHeCGPbBGatwoAx9P*vo28bMgdjhg3nl7*PUvw*T6pawJ/149494994.jpeg)
Here's another recent video of Graham posted by a mostly-vegan dieter in which Graham looks even worse than in the first video I posted, probably in part due to poor quality video image: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG7bd0lxVfo&feature=player_embedded If Graham was born in March of 1953, then that would make him 56 currently.
Graham today looks like a different person from his younger years.

As was mentioned, Durianrider does look paler and slightly slimmer than before. Not a big change, though. It’s early yet for him and, like Lance Armstrong, I think his extensive exercise probably helps reduce the toxic effects of the foods he eats by rapidly burning them off—so far. Eventually I do think he’ll pay a price if he keeps at it.

Quote
He tells his followers that following his diet there is no need for B12 supplementation, yet to please your doctor, it's ok to take the shots.  He took his most recent course of B12 shots in November.
Is that responsible, for him to get B12 shots himself but tell others they don’t need them, without any personal experience to back this up?

Tyler, why are even some 811 dieters acknowledging that Graham does not look very good for his age in these videos, while you still have not and instead have only suggested possible excuses? Granted, he doesn’t look as bad in some images as others, but overall he does look older than his age. Again, I’m NOT saying this PROVES anything. I’m saying it should cause us to ask questions, and it IS causing raw vegans to ask questions (and apparently get censored for it). It's interesting that we here seem to be on balance excusing Graham more than the folks at a raw vegan forum.

Perhaps I should have expected it, but I was a little surprised that this thread generated so much feedback and multiple misunderstandings that require responses that are critical of Graham, so I’ve ended up putting out more critical info about Graham than I originally intended to (as I normally prefer to focus on ideas rather than personalities). So in the interests of fairness and politeness, I'll point out that I agree with Dr. Graham on some things, such as the benefits of eating raw vs. cooked and of eating more like our ancient ancestors. Also, some of his followers appear to make many more extreme claims than he does, so he’s not directly to blame for it all and from what I’ve seen his message seems to get exaggerated by his admirers. That said, if the posts of people who follow his diet or used to follow it are any indication, then Graham's 811 diet seems to be one of the worst I've ever encountered. Possibly second worst after Breatharianism.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: ForTheHunt on February 02, 2010, 08:53:32 am
Awesome read tyler. Pretty much nails it
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on February 02, 2010, 03:22:25 pm
...

Graham looks even worse in that video, he looks like he's gonna pass out the 1st 2 seconds we see him. Ar De Vany looks amazing at 72.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on February 02, 2010, 04:38:02 pm
Devany is in fantastic shape and beats everybody else! He is a paleo athlete!
The Bear is ...a chubby bear and Graham an old monkey.


Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on February 02, 2010, 06:19:10 pm

Tyler, why are even some 811 dieters acknowledging that Graham does not look very good for his age in these videos, while you still have not and instead have only suggested possible excuses? Granted, he doesn’t look as bad in some images as others, but overall he does look older than his age. Again, I’m NOT saying this PROVES anything. I’m saying it should cause us to ask questions, and it IS causing raw vegans to ask questions (and apparently get censored for it). It's interesting that we here seem to be on balance excusing Graham more than the folks at a raw vegan forum.

  You do seem to be cherry-picking here.  I mean 1 bad example doesn't apply to all others. As for me, if I were to look at those photos, not knowing their diets but only their ages, I would automatically think that Art DeVany was the fittest but that The Bear was the healthiest of the lot, by far, despite his having had heart-disease etc.(wait aminute, Cordain is the handsomest and has brighter glowing skin because of his particularly light Scandinavian looks, so would easily beat The Bear). This is because a person with better facial symmetry/strong bones/beauty etc. usually looks healthier than someone a lot weaker-looking even if the latter is healthier(I was going to give an example from this forum but that would be unwise, I guess).

As for genetics, I only have to look at my own family. There's a recent study which showed that women tended to copy their mother's individual rate of aging re number of wrinkles appearing at a certain age etc. My own cousins, for example, have inherited their mother's rather awful skin and have started looking older than most women their own age, from the age of 20 onwards. And they all eat standard SAD diet like everybody else.

Now Art DeVany also has an advantage over the others in that he seems to emphasise exercise far above even diet. If the other gurus all did the same level of exercise, I'm sure they'd look a lot better than they do now, and might even surpass Art DeVany in their physical appearance re health.

In short, I don't want particular gurus singled out as healthier simply because they, by chance, had better lighting etc. in their photos/videos.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: carnivore on February 02, 2010, 07:24:20 pm
Now Art DeVany also has an advantage over the others in that he seems to emphasise exercise far above even diet. If the other gurus all did the same level of exercise, I'm sure they'd look a lot better than they do now, and might even surpass Art DeVany in their physical appearance re health.

Graham emphasis also exercice : http://foodnsport.com/events/health-and-fitness-week.html

Devany :

(http://www.arthurdevany.com/custom/art%20068.jpg)

Graham :

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on February 03, 2010, 02:31:43 am
My other obvious concern re this issue of guru-photos is the whole concept of guru-worship. There's nothing worse than relying on the evidence/data from 1 person, photos or otherwise. Look at the Bear and AV who both claim mythical laboratory results which they never provide etc.. Far better to just rely on the multiple personal accounts of hundreds/thousands of the various diet-followers and choose those  individuals whose past experiences mirror your own, as the people to emulate.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 03, 2010, 11:25:06 am
Thanks for sharing your opinions about the images, Tyler. As for your criticisms, accusations and concerns, I'm wearying of responding to them and I don't want to have to repeat myself anymore. I do appreciate your critiques when you provide some research or something new that I can learn from, but I'm not learning anything from your posts on this subject, so I figure it's best to not respond further to them in this case.

So if anyone else takes your criticisms, etc. seriously, they can let me know and I'll respond. Otherwise it would probably be a waste of everyone's time, as I doubt that there's anything I could post re: this thread's topic that would satisfy you in the slightest.

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 03, 2010, 01:30:09 pm
... Look at the Bear and AV who both claim mythical laboratory results which they never provide etc.. Far better to just rely on the multiple personal accounts of hundreds/thousands of the various diet-followers and choose those whose individuals whose past experiences mirror your own, as the people to emulate.

    Thousands are great, but aajonus has provided at least some labwork.  I have seen it.  Before and after.  Anyone who subscribes to the WW2L site can see it.  I don't read everything there, but from what I have read, I have seen.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on February 03, 2010, 06:16:05 pm

    Thousands are great, but aajonus has provided at least some labwork.  I have seen it.  Before and after.  Anyone who subscribes to the WW2L site can see it.  I don't read everything there, but from what I have read, I have seen.
Well, it's a start. But is this genuine AV-originated lab-work or just some studies done by other people with no connection to AV?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 03, 2010, 10:04:10 pm
    Photocopied of labwork done on him is what I saw, if I recall correctly.  I have not looked again.

    Some time back he showed pics of someones finger growing back, if I do recall.  I didn't pay attention, but recently an eye witness told me the whole story, from their perspective.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: TylerDurden on February 04, 2010, 12:51:12 am
Whole finger growing back? Now that's going to take a hell of a lot of very open scientific evidence. I'm not going to bother just subscribing to wewant2live.com just for that.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: majormark on February 04, 2010, 07:00:49 am
    Some time back he showed pics of someones finger growing back, if I do recall.  I didn't pay attention, but recently an eye witness told me the whole story, from their perspective.

How is that possible ?

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: KD on February 10, 2010, 06:13:39 am
I don't think you can deem someone healthy on the basis of their looks which can be deceiving (as commented on Bear etc..), the converse I think isn't as absurd -especially in person (but also from photographs) to bring criticism to their ideas. Although also as pointed out sometimes this can be a transition/healing period where people can not look so well, but with long term proponents and "experts" I don't think this is the issue

When people make claims about their diet using the words "ultimate" "diet meant for humans" "healing/detoxing" "most efficient use of fuel" "regenerative" it is perfectly natural for someone to expect that this will manifest physically in a positive way, not necessarily compared to various ideals of beauty but have a visible vitality.

also worth mentioning most people that eat conventional 'healthy' diets that happen to look well usually don't make these claims, and will tend to talk more about "moderation" "exercises" etc...

I can say from working in photo industry that while its very true that just about anything can be done with still photography and that virtually all print and web based media is retouched, it still remains that video can only distort via makeup and lighting. Minus the unlikely budget of Graham or Aajonus for CGI. Granted that webcams will not be the most flattering, but especially something shot outside in the sun is open game for commentary IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, another excuse (or sidenote) often responding to Grahams appearance is his claimed high level of fitness, and success (they claim) of increased fitness with aging athletes. It's fairly ironic that few of his disciples actually can create any muscle definition at all in comparison to his build, which is actually quite tiny in person. Another give away (which on top of pictures as I've said I do think can be a window into their program/success) Is that through his message boards etc.for a time he was just a completely irate intolerable son of a bitch. This seems to have improved (probably pointed out by an underling) and he tends to pull it together during interviews via my next point which is he's known to chomp down on bagles and such. Caught also by an intern at his fasting camps with Subway wrappers in his car. That said I think he does for the most part follow his low fat raw vegan regime, and the fact that being the most successful long term example of his ideas his actual results should have more of an impact on people than they do.

As for Aajonous I've never seen him personally, discounting pics I think he looked like a badass in the Ripley's episode on "high meat" which clearly tried to paint him as a creep. More recently on "The Doctors" I thought he was looking not so well (although for someone in his 60's definitely healthy enough) but perhaps due to the antiseptic and ignorant panel and audience he seemed a bit jittered in presence as well.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: invisible on February 10, 2010, 07:00:20 am
As for Aajonous I've never seen him personally, discounting pics I think he looked like a badass in the Ripley's episode on "high meat" which clearly tried to paint him as a creep. More recently on "The Doctors" I thought he was looking not so well (although for someone in his 60's definitely healthy enough) but perhaps due to the antiseptic and ignorant panel and audience he seemed a bit jittered in presence as well.

How long is there between those two shows? In the former he looks really healthy, in the latter he looks very bad. Lost lots of hair and aging skin and appearance. Really looks like he is 15 years older.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 10, 2010, 07:54:30 am
A TV news story was published on Art today: Utahn's ‘Caveman Diet' catching on worldwide, http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9618138

For those who are paranoid about Art's other pictures, this is a TV news video this time. The idea that all these videos and images are being doctored in some massive conspiracy just gets more and more ridiculous with each image and video that comes out.

Reminder: once again, we're not proving anything here--just observing and asking questions. I haven't noticed anyone claiming that these images are hard evidence that proves anything, so that remains a red herring.

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 10, 2010, 08:03:12 am
How long is there between those two shows? In the former he looks really healthy, in the latter he looks very bad. Lost lots of hair and aging skin and appearance. Really looks like he is 15 years older.

    I've seen him before kind of like this.  Seems like every few years something happens to him, a poisoning or a major accident.  Then he looks like crap for a couple of months, and looks much better later on.  I think the way he looked on the doctors was from still healing from one of those accidents.  I really think it's amazing that when I've seen him after these events, a month, with another event two or three months after, that he didn't look worse than he did.

    Saying this all reminds me of one time with Ann Wigmore.  She lifted the bed and pulled her back.  She was 80something years old at the time.  So, from pulling her back out, she rested upstairs for the rest of the morning instead of coming down and teaching class.  I expected her to have problems for weeks, just because of age in years.  I was in sorry shape myself, pinching my back from next to nothing and taking over a decade to heal.  Anyway, by afternoon class she was fine, as if nothing had happened.

    IMO it just shows various raw food diets without garbage in it, with lots of bacteria and amino acids do heal people faster than they heal eating a cooked or semi-cooked diet.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 10, 2010, 08:07:27 am
I think we're starting to veer off topic with the claims about Aajonus and Wigmore, folks. This thread was meant to promote skepticism about gurus who make extreme claims with little solid evidence, like Doug Graham on 811--in part by contrasting De Vany with him--not to promote a cult following for De Vany, Bear, Aajonus or Wigmore.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: cherimoya_kid on February 11, 2010, 10:55:03 am
   I've seen him before kind of like this.  Seems like every few years something happens to him, a poisoning or a major accident.  Then he looks like crap for a couple of months, and looks much better later on.  I think the way he looked on the doctors was from still healing from one of those accidents.  I really think it's amazing that when I've seen him after these events, a month, with another event two or three months after, that he didn't look worse than he did.

    Saying this all reminds me of one time with Ann Wigmore.  She lifted the bed and pulled her back.  She was 80something years old at the time.  So, from pulling her back out, she rested upstairs for the rest of the morning instead of coming down and teaching class.  I expected her to have problems for weeks, just because of age in years.  I was in sorry shape myself, pinching my back from next to nothing and taking over a decade to heal.  Anyway, by afternoon class she was fine, as if nothing had happened.

    IMO it just shows various raw food diets without garbage in it, with lots of bacteria and amino acids do heal people faster than they heal eating a cooked or semi-cooked diet.

This is one of the most precious things to me about eating raw...I recover from muscle pulls/soreness many times faster than when I was a much younger man, simply because of the change in my diet.

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: me on February 15, 2010, 12:11:25 am
An example of a person who has been eating a high fruit diet (not strictly 801010) for 18+ years and done a lot of fasting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_mjpuMZQIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_mjpuMZQIA)

His biography:

http://www.tanglewoodwellnesscenter.com/staff.php (http://www.tanglewoodwellnesscenter.com/staff.php)

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 15, 2010, 08:30:45 pm
Interesting. Has he been 100% raw vegan during that time?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on February 15, 2010, 09:00:45 pm
Interesting. Has he been 100% raw vegan during that time?

That's what he has said, he posts alot on one of the raw forum, he's one of the nicer guru imo but he promotes long water fast, is against animal food, thinks you should have 3 bowel movements a day or you'll accumulate toxins which could lead to colon cancer.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 16, 2010, 01:57:00 am
... promotes long water fast, is against animal food, thinks you should have 3 bowel movements a day or you'll accumulate toxins which could lead to colon cancer.

    3 movements, but never an enema.  Is against any and all food that has protein.  Is against LFLs(tm) bcause it has a good balance of amino acids.  Eats mostly fruit, juicy fruit only, a little lettuce or other delicate leaf.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: Nation on February 18, 2010, 07:32:25 am
RawZi, did you know Loren fled the US and relocated to Panama after one of his patient died under his care?

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/tanglewood.html

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 18, 2010, 10:52:56 am
Wow, that's pretty serious negative evidence. It does say that one of his clients died! Thanks for sharing that important info, Nation.

It's interesting too that the court report says that Loren allowed fish in his diet. So [if the court record is accurate] he hasn't gone 18+ years as a 100% raw vegan. I've never seen him posting about the benefits of fish. Wild fish is one of the more common elements among many of the healthiest nations and peoples in the world.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: KD on February 18, 2010, 11:21:45 am
When I first got into raw (vegan) foods, this had happened not too long ago and my mentor of sorts really tried to hammer home how dangerous these guys were. I ended up eventually following more or less a fruit based approach anyway unfortunately. He would say - of which I agree - that even these guys who have claimed to do all this water fasting, live in the tropics and grow there own foods etc... i.e. done everything RIGHT according to their own rules, there is still something not right about em' how they think/talk/look etc...often coming from more or less good/average health or minor health issues.

I was somewhat impressed with Trader for a time (heres some shots of him looking physically impressive) http://www.vegetarianusa.com/rawenergy/

but I've seen more current pics of him at talks and such and hear from others that he is looking terrible and is always caught sleeping all the time. same goes for Matthew Grace, who wasn't a low fatter but claimed he got his Schwarzenegger type build eating tons of fruit and avocado, and also is not holding up over the years.

Loren might have more tact then graham, and have some ideas that seem sound in comparison to 811 like not eating a million calories a day etc...but unfortunately its likely people will after poor results on 811 go to someone like Lockman, trying more dangerous fasts and limited calorie intake.

at the same time, I guess it is impressive for statistical reasons that people are even alive decades into some of these regimes, but you never know what is really going on. I mean, he isn't exactly exuding health in this video, but I can see him being pretty convincing to someone already convinced that fruit based diets are ideal.

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 18, 2010, 02:16:30 pm
It's interesting too that the court report says that Loren allowed fish in his diet. So he hasn't gone 18+ years as a 100% raw vegan. I've never seen him posting about the benefits of fish. Wild fish is one of the more common elements among many of the healthiest nations and peoples in the world.

    I never heard, read or knew anything about fish with him.  Is the court report correct?  Could he have said he ate fish so that the court would think he's "normal".  I don't think he's a liar.  I don't know why it said he eats fish.  Did they hold him and he was hungry and maybe fish was what he chose between that and hotdogs?  That happened one time to me about a year into veganism.  My Dad took me hundreds of miles away from everything but hot dogs and a lake.  After a week of only water, I ate a fish.  Then he took me back and I went back vegan.    

RawZi, did you know Loren fled the US and relocated to Panama after one of his patient died under his care?

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/tanglewood.html

    Yes, I know he relocated to Panama.  I know a woman died in hospital at the end of fasting at his center.  This is cause for alarm, in addition to his protein-less unhealthy diet and words.  I don't believe this makes him any worse than any other fasting supervisor.  I've encountered worse ones.  The difference with him I think is that he has a bigger heart than them.  He allows sicker people in, so there is more life and death chance involved, but she may have died anyway.  

    Does it say there that she was sneaking insulin injections in at the end of her life?  No disrespect meant toward her.  She was a human life.  No one should die young.  I really don't know what happened.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: redfulcrum on February 19, 2010, 04:55:46 am
The dude in the video looks malnourished and I for one would not take any nutrition advice from him.  I don't see how people think they're going to get all their nutrients from fruits.  It's only a little better than candy. 
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: cherimoya_kid on February 19, 2010, 09:31:41 am


at the same time, I guess it is impressive for statistical reasons that people are even alive decades into some of these regimes, but you never know what is really going on.


Raw vegan gurus are neither raw nor vegan.  If they say they are, they are lying.  Period.  Pretty much nobody can eat that way for more than a few years at a time. 

Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 19, 2010, 10:04:23 am
   I never heard, read or knew anything about fish with him.  Is the court report correct?
Why not read the Loren Lockman court report and decide for yourself?

Final decision and order In the matter of Loren Eric Lockman, Respondent, Before the Maryland State Board of Physicians
http://www.mbp.state.md.us/forms/Lockman08.317.pdf


I found some more links re: Lockman. Again, I'll leave it to you to decide for yourself what to believe:

My Tanglewood experience
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showpost.php?s=8f940ef0dd4e64206e33fafc7f194e9b&p=285940&postcount=13

Tanglewood/may not be so good
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showpost.php?s=6a8e2d04801f4b79a8f798b0450afcb7&p=286162&postcount=7

Quote
 Could he have said he ate fish so that the court would think he's "normal".  I don't think he's a liar.
Well, there's a claim in this thread that he has been a 100% raw vegan for 18+ years and there's a court report that says he claimed to eat fish. They can't both be right.

Quote
   Yes, I know he relocated to Panama.  I know a woman died in hospital at the end of fasting at his center.  This is cause for alarm, in addition to his protein-less unhealthy diet and words.  I don't believe this makes him any worse than any other fasting supervisor.
Wow! So all the others are that bad or worse?
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: KD on February 19, 2010, 12:46:43 pm


My Tanglewood experience
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showpost.php?s=8f940ef0dd4e64206e33fafc7f194e9b&p=285940&postcount=13


Oh man this was quite a piece of entertainment, something about this guys writing style just cracks me up." Loren charges 10 cent for the computer, 50cent to get your clothes washed. "Loren has a small gift shop, he charges double the price of a shop just down the street." I've added my own Dave Chapel voice
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: cherimoya_kid on February 20, 2010, 11:08:52 pm
I used to hear good things about Tanglewood.  It sounds like Loren has gone over-the-top with the fasting.
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: miles on February 21, 2010, 04:23:50 am
These people are crazy...
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: RawZi on February 21, 2010, 04:33:51 am
Well, there's a claim in this thread that he has been a 100% raw vegan for 18+ years and there's a court report that says he claimed to eat fish. They can't both be right.
Wow! So all the others are that bad or worse?

    Maybe he started with fish.  I haven't had anything to do with him in a couple of years, besides posting at GI2MR that he is ok, and because I eat raw meat, vegans/vegetarians there decided to tear him apart.

    Yes, there are worse fasting supervisors.  
Title: Re: De Vany vs. Graham
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 22, 2010, 05:11:12 am
   Maybe he started with fish.
Perhaps, but remember that the claim was that he was 100% raw vegan for 18+ years, not "he included fish at first and then eventually became 100% raw vegan." As has been mentioned by others, there seems to be a disturbing tendency among raw vegan gurus to lie or exaggerate about what they eat, or conveniently leave out mention of fish, eggs, raw dairy, etc. until someone discovers it.

Quote
   Yes, there are worse fasting supervisors.  
Amazing! Why do you think people pay them for their advice and insane programs?