Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: carnivorous on April 18, 2010, 11:22:52 pm
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About 5 weeks ago I started feeling good and energetic on my carnivorous diet (after about 5 months of mostly feeling down) and resumed my heavy athletic training, from 4 to 8 hours a day. I felt great for a few days, upping my food intake to about 4-5 pounds of raw ground beef. Soon I lost my energy, happiness and drive. I started sleeping more, feeling irritable, etc. I ate this much meat for about 7 days after stopping my training, suspecting that I just needed more fuel and I was somehow overtraining.
My muscles felt fine, my recovery was fine; this was not overtraining as I'd experienced before on high carb diets. In retrospect, this switch was the feeling of being knocked out of ketosis and put back into a sugar burning mode. It took me quite some time to figure out that this was apparently due to protein overdose and the ability for it to knock one out of ketosis. My diet never dropped below 70% calories from fat, and probably averaged ~75%- this was not rabbit starvation, at least not the way we know it.
It has been 2 weeks now that I've 99% avoided any protein and stuck to tallow exclusively. I've even fasted 4 days with no food whatsoever and still not returned to ketosis. I'm going by the bubbles in my urine as a guide to my body still converting protein to glucose, and expect that when the bubbles clear ketosis will kick in.
So my question is...how long would an excess of protein take for the body to excrete? I'm guessing I built up somewhere from 2500-4000g of excess protein, maybe even had some excess from previously. Would there be any way to significantly speed the removal of this excess? (I'm thinking of intense exercise, bruising, maybe even bloodletting?)
I'm starting to suspect excess protein is actually the cause of 99% of VLC/ZC'ers difficulties with energy/adaption. Obviously most don't eat 4+lbs of meat daily, but I suspect it takes very little excess protein to stop ketosis in it's tracks and induce a constant high insulin state (VERY bad for all sorts of reasons.)
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Well, since almost no RPDers routinely eat 4-5 lbs of raw meat a day, it's extremely unlikely that excess protein is the cause for most. In my own case, when I tried RZC, I made sure to include plenty of raw fats, so there must have been other reasons involved.
Perhaps exercise would improve things, not sure.
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I think that ketosis is bullshit and is definitely not the way to go.
I tried RZC with very high fat for a month and I felt like crap the whole time. My mind was especially effected by it, mood swings, brain fog, etc.
Now I eat a small amount of fruit when ever I feel a drop in blood sugar and I feel much better.
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Actually both of your experiences are part of my theory. I also feel much better when having a few carbs while having low energy trying to ZC. What I'm proposing is that we, as individuals struggling and feeling like garbage most of the time on ZC diets, are extremely sensitive to excess protein and our bodies convert it immediately to glucose. This would keep us from using ketones for fuel and instead trying to run on an EXTREMELY limited supply of glucose, thus the feeling like shit part.
I actually just typed a huge post about this on Dirty Carnivore, might just cross post it here in a minute.
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I'm really glad you posted this, carnivorous, as I too am searching for this answer. From what I have found the liver can only handle around 400g of protein per day. And the ability to process this amount probably slows down considerably before it reaches this amount. I think it is likely that you slowly built up excess amino acids in your blood over the time period of being carnivorous.
It takes quite a bit of amino acids to get into hyperaminoacidosis. There is a poster by the name of redfulcrum, who did a very dangerous experiment getting around 1000g of protein per day and reached this state of amino acids very quickly within a couple weeks forcing him to the hospital. You might have just experienced something similar, except with a much, much slower build up.
I also feel that excess protein can be one of the main reasons people have problems with low-carb diets although I can think of plenty more, many people gloss right over this. The body has very little need for protein(perhaps as low as 30g/day for sedentary adults) and all excess amounts will be converted to glucose or fat. Saying its the problem for 99% of low-carbers is going way to far, imo. I lift weights intensely and have been eating low protein (50-100g) per day on average and have still been suffering energy wise as well as a host of other issues. The liver needs to be functioning properly to allow for proper fat digestion as well.
I think rabbit starvation is simply getting too much amino acids in the blood which cause a back up in the liver and completely mess up the nutrient composition of the blood. So essentially I'm saying rabbit starvation is hyperaminoacidosis, or they are very closely related.
Thats also very interesting that you fasted for 4 days on nothing but tallow. I think this is a great idea if you had been intaking so much protein. Once your intake to 4-5 pounds of meat which is something like 4-5k calories you are still getting over a 250g a day of protein, which even if you are active is way too much and could eventually lead to the exact problems that you described. I know 250 < 400 but who knows what happens to the liver after prolonged high protein intake. The amount of protein matters here not the percentage. I've seen numbers thrown around that 250g is actually the maximum amount of protein the liver could handle.
Also, for those that are active enough like you, I would suggest, as I have previously that for the more calories you consume, the more should come from fat (or carbs) and not protein. I think this is very important that excess calories do not involve protein at all! So, as you can see in your case that if you do overload on protein, you can actually go for a few days on just tallow for energy with no protein intake. It will take a while for the blood to clear the amino acids. Redfulcrum, took quite some time to reach hyperaminoacidosis, so it is possible to have quite a bit of excess to supply you with your protein needs for the coming days.
Now, a good question to ask, would be whether or not its beneficial to consume extreme amounts over the course of a few days and then fast on fat for the next while? I have no idea, but I think it could work and I would like to try something like this in the near future. Carnivores in the wild go several days without eating on purpose, so its very likely that the have sufficient amino acids running through their blood to cover their daily needs. Although carnivores are better adapted to higher protein intakes and can handle the nitrogen waste, ammonia much better than humans.
Interesting thread - let us know how you are doing.
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I also feel that excess protein can be one of the main reasons people have problems with low-carb diets although I can think of plenty more, many people gloss right over this. The body has very little need for protein(perhaps as low as 30g/day for sedentary adults) and all excess amounts will be converted to glucose or fat. Saying its the problem for 99% of low-carbers is going way to far, imo. I lift weights intensely and have been eating low protein (50-100g) per day on average and have still been suffering energy wise as well as a host of other issues. The liver needs to be functioning properly to allow for proper fat digestion as well.
When I said 99% of VLC/ZC I was really not including all low carbers in the bunch, only those who exclusively eat animal products (minus milk). I was also referring to those who have put in the time (> 1 month) and still felt lousy. Now 99% of this group still may be a gross exaggeration, but for those who have fixed their digestion and still not seen results I'm hypothesizing excess protein is absolutely the cause.
I have read through most of your posts and your ideas contributed to my ideas of excess protein. While you say you're eating low protein and still suffering energy wise, I'm fairly certain I saw a post of yours about bubbles in your urine? I'm fairly certain excess levels of protein can take a VERY long time to clear. I'm guessing you've eaten very high protein/supplemented protein in the past, given your heavy lifting. Perhaps many of us are still dealing with the long term effects of the popular fitness dogma to eat protein with every meal and drink protein shakes PWO.
I'm really starting to think excess protein can be as big if not a bigger problem than excess carbs. We know low calorie diets result in the longest lifespans, and we know excessive carbs are harmful, but could the real damage be from excess protein? This could explain the paradox of different cultures living far longer on high-carb diets than other cultures with diets much higher in fats.
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It has been 2 weeks now that I've 99% avoided any protein and stuck to tallow exclusively. I've even fasted 4 days with no food whatsoever and still not returned to ketosis. I'm going by the bubbles in my urine as a guide to my body still converting protein to glucose, and expect that when the bubbles clear ketosis will kick in.
Can you give me an idea of how you are testing for this or where your sources are coming from?
My energy is pretty crappy, and I also have extremely bubbly urine, but energy wise it isn't worse off than it was prior to VLC so I'm assuming their are other underlying issues. In my history I've probably not done more than 1 lb of meat with some eggs in the last 2 years, prior to that having no animal protein for more than 3. I've been assuming I AM in ketosis (and that in itself being a possible cause of fatigue, in general or due to any specific issues I have), because if I was just burning small amounts of glucose, I would think my energy would be even worse than when I tried going back on carbs and meats. Is it possible the bubbly urine is something else?
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I have read through most of your posts and your ideas contributed to my ideas of excess protein. While you say you're eating low protein and still suffering energy wise, I'm fairly certain I saw a post of yours about bubbles in your urine? I'm fairly certain excess levels of protein can take a VERY long time to clear. I'm guessing you've eaten very high protein/supplemented protein in the past, given your heavy lifting. Perhaps many of us are still dealing with the long term effects of the popular fitness dogma to eat protein with every meal and drink protein shakes PWO.
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Last year I ate about 5 Kg of powder whey protein in 3 months.
I think these powders have a very low rate of assimilation or else I would have encountered problems.
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I'll try and not duplicate the thread on DC, so if you guys are interested my response to carnivorous is below.
http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/index.php?topic=684.msg26379#msg26379
MM,
5kg in three months isn't actually a whole lot of protein. Most bodybuilders will supplement with a lot more than that for much longer periods of time. I don't think these amino acids remain in your blood for all that long. There is a physical space limitation for them. I think they simply get turned into glucose or fat rather quickly or else you'd be in danger of an overload of amino acids pretty quick.
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Can you give me an idea of how you are testing for this or where your sources are coming from?
My energy is pretty crappy, and I also have extremely bubbly urine, but energy wise it isn't worse off than it was prior to VLC so I'm assuming their are other underlying issues. In my history I've probably not done more than 1 lb of meat with some eggs in the last 2 years, prior to that having no animal protein for more than 3. I've been assuming I AM in ketosis (and that in itself being a possible cause of fatigue, in general or due to any specific issues I have), because if I was just burning small amounts of glucose, I would think my energy would be even worse than when I tried going back on carbs and meats. Is it possible the bubbly urine is something else?
I'm glad you asked this; over at DC someone asked "How are you determining whether or not you're in ketosis, Carnivorous? By how you feel?" And I replied:
That's pretty much my only yardstick, yup. It's not perfect, but I can't think of any other solid measurement. The way I see it, the increased energy/reduced sleep requirement/mild euphoria/decreased inhibitions are all solid indicators of ketosis. These indicators tend to be reported a few days in when SAD individuals fast, when Atkins dieters undergo "induction", and by almost all "successful" ZC/VLC dieters. Obviously weight loss is a significant part of ketosis but trying to measure ketosis by weight loss seems fruitless apart from much longer terms.
This is where my idea of excess protein fits in. Since fat apparently never releases insulin (though it can be stored via ASP) it should never inhibit ketosis, period. Logical enough, since fat is fuel for ketosis- why should it ever inhibit it? This leads to the issue of individuals attempting VLC/ZC diets who cannot seem to lose weight and/or have lousy energy levels. Assuming they aren't cheating and eating significant amounts of carbohydrate, the only stimulus left that could be causing insulin release and therefore inhibiting ketosis would be protein.
It also would appear that individuals' sensitivities regarding excess protein releasing insulin may vary wildly, just as individual responses to carbohydrates are all over the map. It may be that sensitivity to excess protein is a blessing in disguise, just as obesity/acne/diabetes is for those that respond to those symptoms by reducing carbohydrate intake.
Well that was longer than anticipated. I've been thinking about this a lot lately- these aren't necessarily new ideas, but I've noticed some individuals that brought them up on ZIOH but were generally quashed and banned before too much discussion could take place.
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I've read and partcipated in some converstion with PD on this, and I still not 100% sold on on either bubly urine or low energy being due to high protein (in full anyway), although quite possibly due to some kind of internal decomposition or issues metaboizing protein.
Because even if only a small ammount of protein is necessary, and everything else on top of that being excess, than surely others who consume twice the protein I do or more would have the same issues or worse, especialy if they tolerate glucose worse, which is probably what brought them to ZC. I don't see even how preexisting health would factor in at all, if these things were so correlated.
I'm glad you asked this; over at DC someone asked "How are you determining whether or not you're in ketosis, Carnivorous? By how you feel?" And I replied:
That's pretty much my only yardstick, yup. It's not perfect, but I can't think of any other solid measurement. The way I see it, the increased energy/reduced sleep requirement/mild euphoria/decreased inhibitions are all solid indicators of ketosis. These indicators tend to be reported a few days in when SAD individuals fast, when Atkins dieters undergo "induction", and by almost all "successful" ZC/VLC dieters. Obviously weight loss is a significant part of ketosis but trying to measure ketosis by weight loss seems fruitless apart from much longer terms.
I don't understand how you can automatically equate those things with ketosis and say anyone who doesn't feel that way must be burning glucose. I perhaps looking at the process mechanically and then matching it with those positive symptoms (I.e. burning better fuel = less sleep). I know last spring when I had been doing raw low carb, (although not necessariily VLC) I experienced those things in spades. And did used to feel great on fasts, juice fasts or just plain undereating/restriction, now feel worse. I've eaten next to nothing in 1 week and feel worse. Weight loss has been a bitch for me, but it seems to be consistanly not even getting minimum calories, rather than the ketosis, but the kind of fat burning and loss of appetite would only make me assume more that I am in ketosis, and the ketosis is the problem, not glucose burning or excess protein.
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KD, I hope I didn't try and sound like I knew exactly what your bubbles meant. I was speculating and have seen some sites associate bubbles in urine with excess nitrogen or even protein (less likely), so I was merely giving you an idea of what might be happening. It might be something completely different.
I don't think protein in excess would necessarily cause low energy by itself and do not consider this as one of the main reasons why I feel so tired. Protein is slowly converted to glucose (slow enough where insulin can work without overworking the cells of the metabolically challenged) and so people with bad glucose tolerance should easily be able to handle the glucose load. ZC'ers are have extremely stable blood sugar and probably show the best hunger control out of any diet group there is.
I think the problem with low energy has to do with assimilating nutrients properly. One can be very tolerant to glucose, but at the same time have a malfunctioning liver/gall bladder/leaky-gut that is constantly disturbing the body. This is the best idea I can come up with right now that explains my symptoms. I don't think glucose is a problem for me and I might tolerate I high cooked starch diet much better than the one I'm on right now.
Carnivorous, the best way to tell if you are in ketosis is to measure blood ketone levels. There is a paper out there that discusses just this. Urinary ketones vary wildly from different individuals. If you have not eaten in a few weeks, you will definitely be using ketones, regardless of the amount of amino acids in your blood before. Gluconeogenesis, especially in a fasted state, should not provide you enough glucose to keep you out of ketosis....
Unless something very, very strange is going on and you just might be a very special case, and I need to find out what the maximum capacity for amino acids is in the blood before one starts to feel sick. I just found a paper that lists amino acids at 3000 micromoles per liter. There are about 5 liters of blood in the human body and so this would equate to 15000 micromoles or .015 moles. The study was done on the elderly after an overnight fast so this is probably the low end. Still, .015 moles is very little considering the molecular weight for amino acids range 75-200g/mole, giving us an estimate of just 1-2g of amino acids in the blood stream. Starvation studies show just about the same concentration at the start and end of the fasting period. I don't know enough to know where the rest of the amino acids are stored after a high protein meal.
This still doesn't explain your nearly three weeks of fasting without muscle loss. You would be extremely unique and quite a subject of study if this truly was the case. If you didn't carefully measure lean-body mass then there is no way to tell. Did you track weight or strength levels. How has your energy been throughout your fast? If it is possible to have an abundance of free amino acids available it does make sense that you could fast for some time without any reprocussions at all, but I haven't seen a study show this. Everyone starts losing lean mass right away.
Personally, I've only fasted for a day and half and I felt great at the end of the fast like I could have gone much longer but decided to eat because it seemed like the right thing to do. I ate cooked food with carbs and felt worse soon after. I've also had other days where I have ate only fat to the point where I didn't feel like eating any protein but again decided it was best to go ahead and eat some meat.
What I would guess now is that if you have eaten a ton of protein say greater than 400 grams for sometime a la redfulcrum then you could probably go a few days completely fasted without losing any lean mass while your liver slowly processes the excess, but 3 weeks seems like a very large stretch and I don't think the body has the capacity to hold that kind of concentration of amino acids. I mean, the blood weighs about 5-6 kg for an average human so even if the blood was one big block of amino acids your liver would still be able to process the entire amount a relatively short amount of time.
Go to Dr. Eades blog and search for junk proteins and you will find the article that I was talking about.
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I don't understand how you can automatically equate those things with ketosis and say anyone who doesn't feel that way must be burning glucose. I perhaps looking at the process mechanically and then matching it with those positive symptoms (I.e. burning better fuel = less sleep). I know last spring when I had been doing raw low carb, (although not necessariily VLC) I experienced those things in spades. And did used to feel great on fasts, juice fasts or just plain undereating/restriction, now feel worse. I've eaten next to nothing in 1 week and feel worse. Weight loss has been a bitch for me, but it seems to be consistanly not even getting minimum calories, rather than the ketosis, but the kind of fat burning and loss of appetite would only make me assume more that I am in ketosis, and the ketosis is the problem, not glucose burning or excess protein.
You're right, my hypothesis is only that. Even if fat fasting until the bubbles fade and limiting protein returns my energy and high-performance I will only have my data point of one. In my ~6 month experience with ZC I've had about 4 periods of feeling absolutely amazing, better than I've ever felt since I was a kid- except with much greater athletic performance and libido.
I have not been keeping accurate records of day to day meals and activities, but one of the more recent periods of feeling amazing was following a 3 day fat fast. I had been trying to improve my digestion, and had worked my way up to ~30 650mg HCL tabs per meal. I decided to give my stomach a break and see if it would handle HCL production better after a rest. After 3 days of eating only sticks of butter, I ate about 1/5th a lb of ground beef. I felt amazing that day, and as I recall had been feeling better and better over the fat fast. I soon resumed my 1-2lbs of ground beef with butter and felt like shit within a few days. The obvious idea that comes to mind was that I just needed smaller meals to allow my body better digestion- but I tried keeping meals under .2 lbs to no avail. This experience to me supports my current idea that it is simply a buildup of protein constantly converting to glucose and preventing ketosis.
This reminds me of another point- I have been suffering from almost incurable dry-mouth and dehydration. I cannot even drink enough water during the day to prevent waking in the middle of the night with an unbelievably dry mouth. I'm assuming this is from the huge amount of water my kidneys are demanding to filter out the protein/nitrogen. My urine is completely clear, but if I try to drink less the bubbles become even more overwhelming and I suffer from all the symptoms of chronic dehydration.
Finally, while this topic has brought up excellent discussion regarding my claims, I'd love to hear any ideas WRT one of my original questions: how might I most significantly increase bodily protein demands? I've been pinching the shit outta myself trying to bruise, but to no avail. I'm thinking of some rather dumb sounding ideas: bloodletting, smacking myself against walls, getting a buddy to leg kick me a bunch...but I'm convinced greater protein demand would help. I guess heavy lifting would be the most repair-intensive type of exercise? Certainly the most anabolic.
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KD, I hope I didn't try and sound like I knew exactly what your bubbles meant. I was speculating and have seen some sites associate bubbles in urine with excess nitrogen or even protein (less likely), so I was merely giving you an idea of what might be happening. It might be something completely different.
I don't think protein in excess would necessarily cause low energy by itself and do not consider this as one of the main reasons why I feel so tired. Protein is slowly converted to glucose (slow enough where insulin can work without overworking the cells of the metabolically challenged) and so people with bad glucose tolerance should easily be able to handle the glucose load. ZC'ers are have extremely stable blood sugar and probably show the best hunger control out of any diet group there is.
I think the problem with low energy has to do with assimilating nutrients properly. One can be very tolerant to glucose, but at the same time have a malfunctioning liver/gall bladder/leaky-gut that is constantly disturbing the body. This is the best idea I can come up with right now that explains my symptoms. I don't think glucose is a problem for me and I might tolerate I high cooked starch diet much better than the one I'm on right now.
From what I understand, for gluconeogenesis to convert protein to glucose it has to drop the nitrogen molecule. This free nitrogen is hazardous waste and is excreted by the body ASAP- thus the bubbly urine and unbelievable thirst and dehydration referred to in my previous post. I apologize for my lackluster chemistry.
The reason protein in excess would cause low energy is not because of huge insulin hits ala carb diets. I agree that the body can easily handle the slow, constant supply of glucose provided via gluconeogenesis. The issue is that no matter how slow the release, it IS using insulin, and the insulin pathway will absolutely interrupt if not stop ketosis dead in its tracks.
I too used to think my struggles were due to poor absorption; I actually felt great for a period while eating pemmican, which is presumably the easiest way for those with compromised digestive systems to absorb nutrients. That, however, did not last. You can even read through delfuego's posts and see a point at which he describes the eventual loss of happiness/joy of life/energy which he fixed by adding large amounts of fat to his pemmican. I am assuming that he did not simply maintain the same amount of pemmican and add more fat, but rather reduced his 50/50 pemmican amount and added extra fat, thus preventing the accumulation of excess protein.
I absolutely believe that issues with energy/happiness are due to not actually being in ketosis, due to insulin from excess carbohydrate or protein.
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PD, thanks for the info
I did mention you but was talking about things generally in the thread and other places. Didn't mean to associate all my comments debunking things you didn't say :)
but if we want to keep discussion going on these things I can say
as for assimilation (for me), this is another piece that doesn't make as much sense to me. Just one week ago, even my GF commented on how good I looked, my hair was extra curly, like a dolls, as I finally washed it. my skin, eyes were clear, my nails are strong, and my physique up until this week has responded really well with minimal intake of food. not to mention my elimination seems to be pretty good for this type of diet and never has undigested food. SO the food I do eat I must be getting something out of. part of my fatigue could just be lack of fat/calories, but I suspect these things are grounded in toxins and metals and such, but even at the basic level are signs the body wants to rest, problem is theres often so much work to be done that it can seem to last really long without being proactive.
carnivorous,
my two cents is that the banging and such isn't the greatest idea, especially if you can tolerate doing the fats with no or minimal protein for awhile, while doing some exercise. The bloodletting might have some success in terms of using up proteins, but if you are talking about dehydration, this as well as the other things seem to make less sense. It seems like the heavy fats should be helpful with that as well
I wasn't saying ZC isn't as beneficial as you say, just that all of a sudden feeling lousy wouldn't mean that you had popped out of ketosis.
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I really don't think your problem is excess protein, as I said that even if you blood was an entire block of amino acids it could convert all of it to glucose or fat in a couple weeks. Don't you think you would get signals from your body from protein overconsumption much before you reach the point that your blood is entirely composed of amino acids? Or even 10%? Perhaps, though all these amino acids are simply stored in the liver waiting to get converted. Or even better in muscle tissue, though there is no evidence that this would happen in large amounts, though it makes sense that the muscles would be a great temporary deposit for excess amino acids. But, perhaps there is a limit here too, to how much muscle can be built in one day. So, maybe your liver tripled in size?
Why not go to the drugstore and get something to measure urinary ketones? This should give us an answer on ketosis.
I have been corresponding with a forum poster here by the name of Mr. BBQ (check up his posts, they are very informative) who's dealing with many of the same problems as you and I. Here is what he has to say about HCL and its connection to liver function, which I think is probably closer in line with finding the underlying cause of this mess.
On the matter of betaine HCL, it’s a sticking plaster – one questions why the stomach is not producing HCL with multiple possibility. Initially, sufficient chloride is needed, which is nicely bio-available in any traditionally-harvested sun-dried sea salt (with its full complement of ionic minerals and some respective living element).
Also, the chyme leaving the stomach and entering the duodenum is a pretty damn acidic cocktail, as you can imagine – this kind of pH ain’t the funk in the small intestine, so what normalises the pH of chyme for that environment(?)...The juices entering the duodenum via the sphincter of oddi – you guessed it, from the liver, gallbladder and pancreas. So, if there’s insufficient alkalising element coming into the duodenum due to occlusions in the biliary tree (sludge, soft stones, hard stones, grit, gravel, allsorts), one may wonder if there’s a corresponding effect to down-regulate HCL production in the stomach. Ultimately, this may impact the effect of the enzymes in the stomach (pepsin etc.), yielding undigested protein.
Bile as a fat emulsifier and vehicle for toxins out of the liver, is also a deliverer of bicarbonate for the purpose of alkalising chyme and generally controlling downstream pathogenesis.
Can you see a pattern forming here – a really insipid vicious circle, which may be dealt with swiftly to preserve living systems and facilitate proper nourishment?
Also, if you’re not emulsifying your fats optimally (bile insufficiency), you’re certainly not uptaking calcium and the fat-soluble vitamins, which are critical to maintaining skeletal metabolism etc.
What’s the point in putting excess good food in a body that can’t absorb/uptake or use it?! The people on raw paleo forum contest that good food is all you need, although I can’t imagine that everyday paleo eating could shift some of the very stubborn debris.
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I've read that post from BBQ 3 times now...I'm guessing I need some sleep, 'cause it's still not really registering. Anyways I went from 30+ 650mg HCL pills with no burn to feeling a burn with 1-2, so I have dropped them for a while now. They definitely seemed to help, though.
Let's go ahead and say it's lack of nutrients from poor digestion that's still causing my issues, then. Why would I be excreting so much nitrogen in my urine? Does this mean I'm absorbing absolutely no fat, so my body refuses to produce ketones and instead wastes protein for glucose? Shouldn't I just use bodily fat stores? (I am no higher than 7-8% bodyfat, if even, but there's still a bit to be used by my body in an emergency...) I'll try HCL until burning with my next protein meal later this week and see what happens.
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I don't agree with the notion that ketosis=good, excess protein=bad.
If you are a carnivore and want to do anaerobic exercise, then you need glucose. That glucose must come from protein gluconeogenesis. (or glycogen in organ meats).
That's how a wild carnivore gets its glucose (which is needed to sprint when hunting down prey!).
I remember reading a study done on Eskimos, which showed that they got enough glucose to stay out of ketosis (unless fasting).
Excess insulin from excess carbs is bad, but small amounts of insulin are essential for good health. Just ask any type 1 diabetic.
I've been doing lots of exercise in the past week, and today my calves were quite sore. I pigged out and ate ~5lbs of raw flesh (mostly beef, and a bit of tuna), and relaxed. No problems with digestion or energy. I usually don't eat this much. When not exercising, I only eat ~2lbs per day. I do get more thirsty if I eat tons of protein, so I just drink more water. Not a big deal.
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Another thing -
Lean meat is not just protein and water. It contains lots of minerals, vitamins, and micronutrients (provided it comes from a grass-fed or wild animal). So there could be benefits to eating lean meat above the quantity necessary to maintain nitrogen balance.
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Michaelwh has said it best so far I think.
However... How much of a difference do you think there really is between whether you're eating 100% Grass-fed, or Grain-finished meat? So far, apart from ~1 week near the beginning where I had ordered grass-fed, and a few times eating lamb which I think is 100% grass-fed, I've been eating grain-finished.
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I would prob'ly ask why the phenomena varies from eater to eater...and why we should neglect the carb metabolic pathways in ourselves (like salivary amylase for one).
Personally, I've experimented with different combinations of meat, fat and organs, missing days of animal protein altogether, and time and time again, I had the dark shadows and edema of kidney stress (as well as very yellow bubble factory).
By the way, my correspondences/posts are always very subjective, especially considering that I have had limited observations/success with my experiments. My only appeal is for less dogma and more speculation about all things, which is productive on a forum, even if the feedback is negative.
If only we were in a tribe and could consult the elders/shaman, or even the spirits...It's strange that we're so out of touch with our true intuition/instinct and have to utter these invented nomenclature about natural mechanisms. I suppose that concrete jungles do that to a paleo wannabe...Moreover, maybe long past generations did not chest beat over the idiosyncrasies of eating their kill and surviving another day/generation...
Add 4 bananas, hehe?!
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Personally, I've experimented with different combinations of meat, fat and organs, missing days of animal protein altogether, and time and time again, I had the dark shadows and edema of kidney stress (as well as very yellow bubble factory).
Are you saying your kidneys are stressed on the days you are NOT eating protein? Interesting if so.
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I've read that post from BBQ 3 times now...I'm guessing I need some sleep, 'cause it's still not really registering. Anyways I went from 30+ 650mg HCL pills with no burn to feeling a burn with 1-2, so I have dropped them for a while now. They definitely seemed to help, though.
Well, I guess I need to change the password to my email if you've read that three times... With the HCL, I wonder how the actual mechanism in the body works that gets your stomach to produce enough acid again. Perhaps the body stores this HCL slowly somewhere and the pills just top off its supply. I don't see how the HCL would ramp up the body's natural ability to produce it on its own. Maybe it does, who knows. It'll be interesting to see if your need for HCL goes back up since have stopped taking the pills.
Let's go ahead and say it's lack of nutrients from poor digestion that's still causing my issues, then. Why would I be excreting so much nitrogen in my urine? Does this mean I'm absorbing absolutely no fat, so my body refuses to produce ketones and instead wastes protein for glucose? Shouldn't I just use bodily fat stores? (I am no higher than 7-8% bodyfat, if even, but there's still a bit to be used by my body in an emergency...) I'll try HCL until burning with my next protein meal later this week and see what happens.
We need to be clear - you don't know how much nitrogen is in your urine and the bubbles are far from a sure sign that this means you are excreting lots of nitrogen. This is a gigantic assumption from just bubbles. I'm not sure if there is an easily available method for calculating this.
There still is a small possibility that you did over-accumulate protein from your high-protein diet over the past few months that it would take a few days to get completely out of your system. Perhaps your liver is overworked and it can only convert so much protein per day - less than what a normal liver could convert? With your small intake of protein and adequate consumption of tallow (though I don't think this spares much if any protein), you could have lost little lean body-mass after your 'fast', but I still can't make sense of it with all the starvation work I have seen.
What I still think is the interesting part, is whether or not it would be more beneficial to have large protein meals every few days and just munch on low-density vegetation in between or eat smaller amounts of protein everyday.
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Well, I guess I need to change the password to my email if you've read that three times...
I think he means the quote which you provided.
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Does anyone know why the body doesn't just use excess protein to build more? I can see that if you have more size, you need more food to support it, so you may not do so well when food runs short, but then why isn't it better to have more body to break down? Also, if you're bigger, when food is scarce you should be able to out-compete the others for that food..? Someone mentioned myo-statins in another topic. Do the levels of these ever decrease naturally, simply through continually surpassing the body's dietary needs, if not why not?
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I think he means the quote which you provided.
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obviously, yes. The quote came directly from my email. You seem to misinterpret just about everything I write, even trivial things like this.
Does anyone know why the body doesn't just use excess protein to build more? I can see that if you have more size, you need more food to support it, so you may not do so well when food runs short, but then why isn't it better to have more body to break down? Also, if you're bigger, when food is scarce you should be able to out-compete the others for that food..? Someone mentioned myo-statins in another topic. Do the levels of these ever decrease naturally, simply through continually surpassing the body's dietary needs, if not why not?
The body is very conservative and generally knows what its doing. It has no need for extra muscle mass if it is not being used. It must think extra mass is not as important as simply converting these amino acids to glucose, even when provided with an overabundance. The process of storing excess amino acids as muscle could take longer and be harder than the body than to just excrete them into them urine.
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Posted this in response to a suggestion to try more fat:
I have actually been forcing more fat again. At one point I was consuming about a lb of USWellness's tallow in addition to my daily meal of fatty meat or pemmican. That soon became 'as much as I could stomach', which soon became under half a pound a day while fat fasting. USW tallow is unbelievably disgusting; honestly, I've consumed so many gross supplement powders and concoctions that I'm quite used to forcing myself to suck it up. Their tallow has reached a point with me where no amount of willpower will prevent some sort of gag reflex.
My point is that I switched to pure heavy cream for now, which is palatable enough. I've started eating between 1-1.5 lbs of 80% ground beef and one pint of cream every night, doubting my excess protein theory. Starting today I'm kicking that up to 2-3 pints of cream first then 'lean' ground beef.
The only thing I've found to help so far is absolutely ungodly amounts of water. It does seem like my body is still converting protein to fuel for whatever reason, and it is dehydrating me severely. I'm drinking 2+ gallons of water a day, and it seems like several of the adverse effects I was experiencing were actually due to dehydration.
The issue with this is that I'm drinking an absurd amount of water and visit the restroom 2+ times an hour. The possibility of water overdose and electrolyte disturbances are constantly on my mind, but I seem to be doing alright. The other issue is that, no matter how much I drink during the day, I always become extremely dehydrated during the night. I crawl out of bed exhausted and feel no relief until a few pints later.
Anyways, my assumption is that it's my body's gluconeogenesis that is causing this extreme dehydration- the kidneys demand large amounts of water to continuously filter out the nitrogen (thus the bubbles, which clear up once I've drank enough in a short enough time period.) At this point, my new hypothesis is that this is due to a lack of fat prompting my body to rely on gluconeogenesis for the majority of its fuel.
Considering all of the cases of failure to thrive on ZC diets I've read about, it seems a great majority are young, lean to begin with, and male (with a few instances of active athletes fizzling out and giving up). It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that ~2500 calories from fat alone + protein would not cover my energy needs when totally sedentary. Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel. In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.
A lack of fat almost seems too simple to be the case, but considering I've availed myself of many symptoms simply by drinking far more water, I think refocusing on the basics is wise enough.
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It could also be that some people who are lean on SAD have metabolic problems, which have built up and ended up stopping their bodies from storing/using body-fat.
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I have actually been forcing more fat again. At one point I was consuming about a lb of USWellness's tallow in addition to my daily meal of fatty meat or pemmican. That soon became 'as much as I could stomach', which soon became under half a pound a day while fat fasting. USW tallow is unbelievably disgusting; honestly, I've consumed so many gross supplement powders and concoctions that I'm quite used to forcing myself to suck it up. Their tallow has reached a point with me where no amount of willpower will prevent some sort of gag reflex.
I wouldn't ever depend on commercial tallow as an energy source. It's possible you could have much more success with raw animal fats or at the very least homemade tallow where you can minimize damage to the fat.
Considering all of the cases of failure to thrive on ZC diets I've read about, it seems a great majority are young, lean to begin with, and male (with a few instances of active athletes fizzling out and giving up). It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that ~2500 calories from fat alone + protein would not cover my energy needs when totally sedentary. Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel. In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.
I run counter to this argument. 28 year-old male with, I'd estimate, roughly 8% bodyfat (eyeballing based on where I was at 4% a couple years ago). I'm also moderately to highly active depending on the time of the year. All I eat most days is ~1/2 pound of grass-finished fat a day as well as 1-2 pounds of grass-finished beef chuck. I have maintained a plateau around 170 pounds without muscle mass loss.
I do drink at least a half gallon of water a day, sometimes as much as a gallon, and add a tiny bit of aqueous electrolytes to the water. I upped my water intake a couple months ago and definitely noticed a beneficial effect, most noticeably the disappearance of my hypostatic orthotension. :)
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I wouldn't ever depend on commercial tallow as an energy source. It's possible you could have much more success with raw animal fats or at the very least homemade tallow where you can minimize damage to the fat.
I run counter to this argument. 28 year-old male with, I'd estimate, roughly 8% bodyfat (eyeballing based on where I was at 4% a couple years ago). I'm also moderately to highly active depending on the time of the year. All I eat most days is ~1/2 pound of grass-finished fat a day as well as 1-2 pounds of grass-finished beef chuck. I have maintained a plateau around 170 pounds without muscle mass loss.
I do drink at least a half gallon of water a day, sometimes as much as a gallon, and add a tiny bit of aqueous electrolytes to the water. I upped my water intake a couple months ago and definitely noticed a beneficial effect, most noticeably the disappearance of my hypostatic orthotension. :)
I do need to source some raw grass fed fat. Been lazy with that.
I certainly wasn't saying all young athletic or lean individuals would fail at the diet; if I was suggesting that, I would have given up already! What I am stating, however, is that reviewing the ZIOH journals, and experiences here and elsewhere indicate to me that young and lean individuals represent a MUCH greater percentage of those struggling than they do of those attemping carnivorous diets as a whole. I can't say I ran numbers for this, but it's been such an obvious paradox that I never felt the need to prove it to myself.
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It could also be that some people who are lean on SAD have metabolic problems, which have built up and ended up stopping their bodies from storing/using body-fat.
An obvious possibility; the common gut explanations come to mind (candida, leaky gut, IBS, etc.) That said I've felt absolutely amazing maybe 20 days (non-consecutive) out of the last 6 months I've been eating ZC. The first ~3 days were some of those. It is bizarre and frustrating that I've not been able to consistently thrive on this diet over 6 months, and I'm not the only one.
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Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel. In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.
AV wrote that our bodies use fat for solvent and lubricant as well as nutrient. Your physical state might require more of any one of these functions.
USW tallow has been deprecated after a conversation with the maker, who said it was not completely water-free.
It gets moldy as a result, while the home-made or (mass-market food grade) commercial tallow should be good for 20+ years without taste change.
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One point, just as an exercise in creating even more bizarre possibilities, that I'd like to mention is that by eating lots of fat you could actually be getting your body to run even more exclusively on carbs. This sounds counterintuitive and I can easily argue against it, but the glyceride molecule in all of the fats that you are eating can be easily converted to carbs and a wide number of sources put this at around 10% of each fat molecule. This would not add up to all that much even if you are eating 300+ grams of fats a day but I think its worth mentioning. If you really want to send your body into ketosis then you should no doubt get there by completely fasting for a week.
But, of more importance, and you ignored this question before, is..
Why not buy strips to measure ketone levels?
You are spending all this money on excess calorie consumption why not spend $10 to measure ketones that could give you some valuable information.
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One point, just as an exercise in creating even more bizarre possibilities, that I'd like to mention is that by eating lots of fat you could actually be getting your body to run even more exclusively on carbs. This sounds counterintuitive and I can easily argue against it, but the glyceride molecule in all of the fats that you are eating can be easily converted to carbs and a wide number of sources put this at around 10% of each fat molecule. This would not add up to all that much even if you are eating 300+ grams of fats a day but I think its worth mentioning. If you really want to send your body into ketosis then you should no doubt get there by completely fasting for a week.
But, of more importance, and you ignored this question before, is..
Why not buy strips to measure ketone levels?
You are spending all this money on excess calorie consumption why not spend $10 to measure ketones that could give you some valuable information.
You know I thought about that glycerol point for a bit. Ultimately if that's going to happen, it'll happen- it just seems kinda absurd to worry about.
I guess I'll go pick up some strips. I'm just not sure what value they'd provide...am I hoping to see evidence of excess ketones? I'm not really convinced I'm not in ketosis anymore, just that some vital nutrient(s) is preventing me from thriving (and maybe as in the case of HCL deficiency creating all sorts of other deficiencies.) You can look at the symptoms list for any number of vitamins/mineral or even fat deficiencies and find depression, muscle soreness, lack of energy, etc.
I'm thinking if the fat doesn't fix things up, next week I'll add in more raw beef alongside intense exercise. I feel like exercise would make a huge difference as far as feeling better energy-wise, since it tells the body to keep the energy production running (vs storage.) Really the only reason I'm not still working out is the soreness/palpitations/shortness of breath that kinda scare me.
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Oh, I still thought that you thought you weren't in ketosis and still using majority glucose as fuel. Ultimately though, yea these strips will probably not be able to point you in any direction either way, though they could and it would be interesting to find out just as an exercise.
You did bring up a good observation in your last post that I forgot to address about younger males not thriving on zc/vlc.
Maybe we can make a list to clarify things because you might be concentrating on the failures, which is what I like to do. I hardly ever take time to look at the success stories, its the failures that seem to provide much more information and are actually more likely to be telling the truth.
Those that failed - Rosenfeltc, Niklas, Martin
Success - djr81, wodgina
Still testing - me, you, yuri
Any more you guys can think of?
My strength has gone up while being vlc and I can play basketball pretty well without getting run down, though its been such a long time since I've been at my peak that I can't really compare it to much. I've felt run down for a long time and am not active enough to say if my endurance level is where I'd like it. But, overall athletically I feel like I have potential to reach my goals with vlc.
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23yrs old, more than thriving on RZC, best dietary change I've ever made in my entire life.
Nothing else even comes close, I have been reading about nutrition and exercise for 10 years and I'll never read another book or article about diet and exercise, I already have my answer.
The one thing that some people might need to change is to increase their intake of lean meat and decrease their fat intake, this has been very beneficial for me.
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Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting. Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.
Savage, what exactly are you eating these days (or normally if you're still only eating lean?) Be interesting to hear your lean/fat amounts
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I recently dropped ghee and lard for 2 reasons. First, they both were tasting too sweet to me. Secondly, and most importantly, I find that I do better on both raw meat AND raw fat. I adore raw bone marrow, and it is not sweet. I do feel more energy eating this way. I only eat cooked meat now if I have a date at a restaurant, and that is purely rare unseasoned steak.
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I recently dropped ghee and lard for 2 reasons. First, they both were tasting too sweet to me. Secondly, and most importantly, I find that I do better on both raw meat AND raw fat. I adore raw bone marrow, and it is not sweet. I do feel more energy eating this way. I only eat cooked meat now if I have a date at a restaurant, and that is purely rare unseasoned steak.
Careful! Both PaleoPhil and I noted that at one time liquids began to taste sweet. I don't know why, but my straight black coffee no longer tastes sweet.
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Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting. Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.
Savage, what exactly are you eating these days (or normally if you're still only eating lean?) Be interesting to hear your lean/fat amounts
I'm not so sure that's true. Paleophil mentioned he was underweight, Lex's picture shows him to be rather a thin body-type. By contrast, I was heavily overweight pre-RPD diet and easily pile on the pounds even after a small intake of cooked animal foods or raw dairy - and I did very badly on raw zero carb.
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Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting. Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.
What about females? Any observations?
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Careful! Both PaleoPhil and I noted that at one time liquids began to taste sweet. I don't know why, but my straight black coffee no longer tastes sweet.
When my carbs are superlow (mostly just from soured butter NO liver) for over a month, I get a sweet aftertaste from eggs and water tastes very sweet. What does this mean?
Why don't you join me on Dirty Carnivore. I find it much better not fighting against the waves. Your main focus is on meat for health. Smoking isn't raw. It's a nice group there. I think you should consider. You'll like it. I do. I started posting there cause I really think I want to try zero carb, and I think that might be a good place for me to do it.
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When my carbs are superlow (mostly just from soured butter NO liver) for over a month, I get a sweet aftertaste from eggs and water tastes very sweet. What does this mean?
I don't know. Disturbing, because I don't like that sweet taste. Pre-diabetic.
Why don't you join me on Dirty Carnivore. I find it much better not fighting against the waves. Your main focus is on meat for health. Smoking isn't raw. It's a nice group there. I think you should consider. You'll like it. I do. I started posting there cause I really think I want to try zero carb, and I think that might be a good place for me to do it.
There is a troll there too. Complete with fan club.
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I'm not so sure that's true. Paleophil mentioned he was underweight, Lex's picture shows him to be rather a thin body-type. By contrast, I was heavily overweight pre-RPD diet and easily pile on the pounds even after a small intake of cooked animal foods or raw dairy - and I did very badly on raw zero carb.
Correct re: me, though I believe that Lex reported he was heavy before he started ZC, but he also reported that he was able to add back significant amounts of body fat when he ate too many calories on ZC.
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When my carbs are superlow (mostly just from soured butter NO liver) for over a month, I get a sweet aftertaste from eggs and water tastes very sweet. What does this mean?
Apparently it means that you were eating more fats than your body could handle at the time because you were not "fat adapted." Based on my own and other peoples' reported experiences, this appears to be a more real indicator of fat adaptation than urinary ketones, which Dr. Harris says only indicate ketonuria, not lack of fat adaptation (Harris, Lex and I all continue to excrete some urinary ketones long after going VLC/ZC, so he may be right).
...I started posting there cause I really think I want to try zero carb, and I think that might be a good place for me to do it.
If you do ZC I recommend getting Multistix and educating yourself about potential issues--such as water, magnesium, iodine and organ intakes. It's doable and VLC/ZC has worked wonders for me so far, but for longterm success it apparently requires some special practices that longtime VLCers like the Inuit, Chukchi, Nenets, etc. know about but most moderners are unaware of.
I don't know. Disturbing, because I don't like that sweet taste. Pre-diabetic.
Are you still getting the sweet taste, William? For me it was only strong for a few weeks, as I recall.
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Apparently it means that you were eating more fats than your body could handle at the time because you were not "fat adapted." Based on my own and other peoples' reported experiences, this appears to be a more real indicator of fat adaptation than urinary ketones, which Dr. Harris says only indicate ketonuria, not lack of fat adaptation (Harris, Lex and I all continue to excrete some urinary ketones long after going VLC/ZC, so he may be right).
If you do ZC I recommend getting Multistix and educating yourself about potential issues--such as water, magnesium, iodine and organ intakes. It's doable and VLC/ZC has worked wonders for me so far, but for longterm success it apparently requires some special practices that longtime VLCers like the Inuit, Chukchi, Nenets, etc. know about but most moderners are unaware of.
Hmm. I feel really good that way though. And the sweet doesn't feel bad, I just want to understand it. Maybe ZC cannot be for me. Is there maybe proof that it can only be done sans dairy? Maybe it's just the wrong protein and fat no matter how void of carbs it is. I have to consider, but I don't feel like doing multistix every day, if at all.
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There is a troll there too. Complete with fan club.
Good to know I'm not the only one who tastes the sweet flavor.
Who's the troll there? What do you mean fan club? How would that make you not want to be there? You have an account there I think, I just checked the member list, and a William is there who seems similar. Do you like this place better because of the paleo thing being more important than meat?
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Hmm. I feel really good that way though. And the sweet doesn't feel bad, I just want to understand it. Maybe ZC cannot be for me. Is there maybe proof that it can only be done sans dairy? Maybe it's just the wrong protein and fat no matter how void of carbs it is. I have to consider, but I don't feel like doing multistix every day, if at all.
Why can't you be raw ZC? I post here and at DCF.
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Are you still getting the sweet taste, William? For me it was only strong for a few weeks, as I recall.
No, my experience was the same as yours.
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Hmm. I feel really good that way though. And the sweet doesn't feel bad, I just want to understand it.
There's not a lot of info about it online, but it apparently results from acetone in the saliva from the excess fats that the body is not yet able to utilize fully for energy or fat storage--apparently the body is trying to get rid of the excess fat. You may also notice an increase in saliva as the body tries to excrete the acetone. There were times where it was coming close to dripping out of my mouth like a wolf or dog. Once fully adapted your body should be able to use the fat to warm your body and to store for later energy. At that point the sweet taste should diminish. I think water still tastes slightly sweeter to me than it used to (especially if I've been ZC and eating a lot of fat), but not sickeningly sweet like it got for a couple weeks.
Maybe ZC cannot be for me.
The sweet saliva is a normal and temporary thing, like William indicated.
Is there maybe proof that it can only be done sans dairy?
I've never heard that.
I don't feel like doing multistix every day, if at all.
Nor do I. I've probably measured less than half a dozen times total.
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Why can't you be raw ZC? I post here and at DCF.
Yes, :) you are wonderful there, a warm welcome to me, thank you. I am very grateful!
I'm not sure again, I'm rethinking it back and forth if it could be ok or good for me. I had that sweet flavor come every time for about two years raw low carb. Maybe this means this body will never adapt.
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I did have an increase in saliva, but I liked that. I've always been so dry otherwise.
There's not a lot of info about it online, but it apparently results from acetone in the saliva from the excess fats that the body is not yet able to utilize fully for energy or fat storage--apparently the body is trying to get rid of the excess fat. You may also notice an increase in saliva as the body tries to excrete the acetone.
There were times where it was coming close to dripping out of my mouth like a wolf or dog. Once fully adapted your body should be able to use the fat to warm your body and to store for later energy. At that point the sweet taste should diminish. I think water still tastes slightly sweeter to me than it used to (especially if I've been ZC and eating a lot of fat), but not sickeningly sweet like it got for a couple weeks.
The sweet saliva is a normal and temporary thing, like William indicated.
I've never heard that.
Nor do I. I've probably measured less than half a dozen times total.
:) I never dripped like a dog. I just got to the normal amount all the healthy people around me have. I suspect maybe my body was using the fat in good ways. It evened my body temp to all good temp, and my body looked and felt better fat distributed. It was never sickeningly sweet to me, just strangely sweet. For me it was two years, how temporary is that? It always seems my body reacts differently than other people.
I know dairy no matter how good it works, it works differently than meat.
Oh good, I would hate to have to measure all the time.
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"For me it was two years, how temporary is that? It always seems my body reacts differently than other people."
Hmm, that's puzzling. Did you cycle back and forth between ZC and eating carbs or were you consistently ZC?
:) I never dripped like a dog.
LOL, I didn't quite either, but I came close. I suspect that I have more carnivorous genes than most, which may explain my amazing saliva levels (that my hygienist even remarked about), prominent canines, color blindness, green eyes, red hair, and pale skin; all of which potentially have intriguing connections to carnivory and carnivore-oriented peoples of the past, though some of the links proposed by scientists are mere speculations at this point (for example, Neanderthals were supposedly the most carnivorous humans and at least some of them had red hair, green eyes and pale skin and some scientists speculate that some of their genes may have survived, though this is controversial).
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I wouldn't worry about the sweet taste Rawzi.
If I eat more fat than usual I get a sweet taste in my mouth. I also sometimes get a sweet taste when I drink water.
As far as I'm concerned I'm thriving on a raw carnivorous diet (barring the tired when I wake thing) and after spending over 8 months eating this way I'd wager I'm fairly well keto-adapted. I don't worry about the sweet taste if/when it shows up. :)
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"For me it was two years, how temporary is that? It always seems my body reacts differently than other people."
Hmm, that's puzzling. Did you cycle back and forth between ZC and eating carbs or were you consistently ZC?
LOL, I didn't quite either, but I came close. I suspect that I have more carnivorous genes than most, which may explain my amazing saliva levels (that my hygienist even remarked about), prominent ... eyes and pale skin and some scientists speculate that some of their genes may have survived, though this is controversial).
Let's see. The first month I ate mostly one thing, cultured raw never been frozen grass grazed butter. I know that was a big change from vegan low fat, but I felt I needed it. It felt good to me, and looked good on me etc... Then, I added a half an orange per day. I did drink celery juice too. No liver, no organs. About four months later I had two meals that had wheat. Then for about a full year I ate about 1/2 orange per day or equivalent of other fruit. Then I went vegan + kombucha drink for three weeks. It made me feel very foggy. Then I went back to low carb for a little over a year. Then I took a bite of rice one time. Then about a month later I drank about 1/4 of a green smoothie. The smoothie left me acutely ill, serious. Then back to low carb for about seven months. Then, and until now ... I haven't been low to ZC for more than probably a few days straight at a time.
It seems whenever I'm eating close to ZC for a few weeks, the sweet starts. It doesn't feel bad. It's just unusual for me.
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I forgot, but remember now. Within the month before the bite (part of a slice of sushi roll) of rice, I ate 1 boiled potato with no salt nor fat nor flavoring, and I ate a dry slice of toast with nothing on it nor with it. The potato was followed by my legs breaking out in a painful unusual rash.
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What more symptoms does excess blood protein give ? Does it make one sensitive to heat or more anxious ? Increased heart rate ?
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What more symptoms does excess blood protein give ? Does it make one sensitive to heat or more anxious ? Increased heart rate ?
I'm fairly certain now my experience had nothing to do with excess protein, aside from perhaps the weight gain. The weight might not have even gone on as fat if I weren't deficient in some nutrient...
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http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/how-long-does-it
-take-to-clear-excess-protein-from-the-blood/msg34676/?topicseen#new
... I haven't been low to ZC for more than probably a few days straight at a time.
It seems whenever I'm eating close to ZC for a few weeks, the sweet starts. It doesn't feel bad. It's just unusual for me.
OK, then you likely didn't have enough time on ZC or VLC to become fat adapted. The sweetness also kicked in for me after a few weeks, then mostly cleared up again after another few weeks of ZC. After a while the sweet taste only appeared after eating a lot more fat than normal and at this point I don't remember the last time I had it. It seems to be normal and I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.
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OK, then you likely didn't have enough time on ZC or VLC to become fat adapted. The sweetness also kicked in for me after a few weeks, then mostly cleared up again after another few weeks of ZC.
Then for about a full year I ate about 1/2 orange per day or equivalent of other fruit. Then I went vegan + kombucha drink for three weeks. It made me feel very foggy. Then I went back to low carb for a little over a year.
That's what I'm saying. A cup of strained raw celery juice and a half a regular size raw orange a day, and then three full meals a day of cultured raw grassfed butter and raw pastured eggs/egg yolks a day with a little raw grassfed meat each day for a year each at a time, I think that's low carb long enough to be adapted. Either the sweet aftertaste of eggs and water is good or I'll need years each time to get adapted. I could be wrong. I don't know all the science. I just know my experience.
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That's what I'm saying. A cup of strained raw celery juice and a half a regular size raw orange a day, and then three full meals a day of cultured raw grassfed butter and raw pastured eggs/egg yolks a day with a little raw grassfed meat each day for a year each at a time, I think that's low carb long enough to be adapted.
So were you "low to ZC" for more than a few days at a time after all, and how low is "low"? I'm trying to reconcile your various reports so that I can understand what you were/are doing and what you were/are experiencing.
Either the sweet aftertaste of eggs and water is good or I'll need years each time to get adapted. I could be wrong. I don't know all the science. I just know my experience.
It would also help if I could get a better handle on what you mean by "strangely sweet". Did it taste good or bad to you? Is it still occurring now or did it only occur in the past?
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I just noticed something about all the younger guys that I talked about earlier in the thread that have problems with VLC/ZC. They all had severe deficiencies with HCL.
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I just noticed something about all the younger guys that I talked about earlier in the thread that have problems with VLC/ZC. They all had severe deficiencies with HCL.
Lack of HCL absolutely will cause everything to go haywire, but I and several others have progressed from massive HCL doses with meals to none needed. While it helped, it didn't seem to "fix" anything, and the huge HCL deficiency soon returned.
I have to assume this is because of some other nutritional deficiency; maybe a nutrient involved in one of prerequisites for HCL? Maybe it's a nutrient that, due to it's fat soluble status, will cause much greater difficulties with the lean male carnivorous dieters (who have much lesser fat soluble vit. stores, and burn through them faster)?
So I'm thinking A, D, E, and/or K2. I've started tanning and consuming pastured fat/butter for D and K2. I've eaten large amounts of liver in the past and if anything probably have excess vit A. Vit A also balances with D, so my total lack of sunlight here in the northeast probably means the balance tilts heavily towards A.
I'm obviously not controlling variables here, but I'm more concerned about getting on track and ridding the worrying side effects. Anyways I'm back to needing absurd amounts of HCL even with 40-50g protein meals, so my hypothesis is that once I'm down to needing no HCL again it will continue production on it's own and everything will work as intended.
I believe this all ties into the cramping/kidney stones many deal with on ZC diets as well, but I'm still exploring the mechanics of that. The literature on K2 is lacking.
BTW this means I'm basically continuing my lower protein higher fat experiment, since I'm chasing the fat soluble vits and large protein meals are almost impossible for my stomach to handle right now.
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Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.
Sodium chloride deficiency:
"I have also learned that adequate salt intake is important and that a magnesium supplement may be needed. One can’t eat too much protein or you will feel ill and it may generate an insulin response sufficient to retard fat burning. ....
When you stop eating carbs your kidneys stop retaining salt. This release of salt in your urine will take fluid with it, something called diuresis, which will lower blood pressure. " http://www.drjaywortman.com/blog/wordpress/2008/12/31/how-to-reach-me/
Since Paleo diet gurus tend to recommend avoiding salt and since Dr. Wortman says that the kidneys excrete salt excessively on low carb diets, it makes sense that salt deficiency could be a problem for some low carb Paleo dieters.
Potassium chloride deficiency (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Hydrochloric_acid/)
Low blood pressure, constipation and diabetes (and presumably insulin resistance) are also associated with hypothyroidism:
http://symptoms.wrongdiagnosis.com/cosymptoms/dehydration/hypothyroidism.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/low-blood-pressure/ds00590/dsection=causes
http://thyroid.about.com/od/relatedconditions1/a/constipation.htm
Dr. Ron's Iodine Complex contains both iodine and potassium iodide, just like the Lugol's solution that was popular in the early 1900's before salt was commonly iodized. I'm
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Carnivorous, I'm glad you pointed out the fact that HCL supplementation is not at all some kind of magical cure. I've recently posted in my journal how I think that it just masks symptoms of horrible digestion and probably does little to alleviate underlying causes, though its possible that it does allow you to start uptaking essential nutrition that you were missing and thus repair broken digestion, but I still don't think its enough for most people. The fact that now there are several observations of people going through this HCL supplementation cycle where they have to mega dose for a period of time and then quickly drop down and then mega-dose again does indicate that digestion remains impaired.
I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.
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My experience corroborates your post Phil.
After giving up carbs I found I had bouts of hypostatic orthotension (light-headed/dizziness upon standing indicative of low blood pressure). Things did get somewhat better each time I added a bit of sea salt to my meals. Since I began adding just a bit of aqueous electrolytes (much better ration of sodium to other salts) to my drinking water the H.O. went away. I find that the days I have little to no drinking water is followed by slight H.O. the next day.
It might be just in my head but my digestion seems a bit better with the electrolytes/water as well.
FWIW I would like to add some blood to my diet and see if this clears things up better but for now things are in check with minimal additives to my diet.
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Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.
Sodium chloride deficiency:
"I have also learned that adequate salt intake is important and that a magnesium supplement may be needed. One can’t eat too much protein or you will feel ill and it may generate an insulin response sufficient to retard fat burning. ....
When you stop eating carbs your kidneys stop retaining salt. This release of salt in your urine will take fluid with it, something called diuresis, which will lower blood pressure. " http://www.drjaywortman.com/blog/wordpress/2008/12/31/how-to-reach-me/
Since Paleo diet gurus tend to recommend avoiding salt and since Dr. Wortman says that the kidneys excrete salt excessively on low carb diets, it makes sense that salt deficiency could be a problem for some low carb Paleo dieters.
Potassium chloride deficiency (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Hydrochloric_acid/)
Low blood pressure, constipation and diabetes (and presumably insulin resistance) are also associated with hypothyroidism:
http://symptoms.wrongdiagnosis.com/cosymptoms/dehydration/hypothyroidism.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/low-blood-pressure/ds00590/dsection=causes
http://thyroid.about.com/od/relatedconditions1/a/constipation.htm
Dr. Ron's Iodine Complex contains both iodine and potassium iodide, just like the Lugol's solution that was popular in the early 1900's before salt was commonly iodized. I'm
That's true about potassium. I was constipated until I added potassium salt onto my food. Using PAN-SALT (sodium chloride, potassium chloride, magnesium sulfate, lysine, potassium iodide)
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Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.
The body has a remarkable ability to retain sodium. It seems like the natural order to things is to excrete absolutely minimal amounts of sodium/other minerals in urine and sweat. Ingesting salt simply upregulates the kidney's disposal of salt (and probably potassium, if you supplement that in great amounts.) This switch can take some time (IME, weeks +,) so when one suddenly switches to raw meat + fat from SAD you'll experience bouts of low blood sodium.
I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.
I'm absolutely against "nit-picking" for certain vitamins or minerals. The logic I'm using is that we absolutely know humans can thrive on plain meat and fat. The possible problems include:
*That meat, amazingly, is no longer created equally due to ridiculous corn subsidies. This creates less nutritious meat across the board, but mainly makes the fat nutrients FUBAR.
*That we no longer get nearly as much sun as we would have prior to civilization, clothes, sunscreen, and more ridiculous anti-sun dogma. Vitamin D. Fat soluble.
*That our "grass fed" meat is obviously not all created equally either. Whether due to poor soil/grass or greedy lieing farmers, "grass-fed" is not a standard of quality. See the widely varying colors of suet and butter. Deeper yellow-orange fat clearly has greater fat-soluble nutrients. Vitamin K2, probably more A, D, and E too. "Arab groups also put a high value on butter, especially deep yellow-orange butter from livestock feeding on green grass in the spring and fall." (https://www.westonaprice.org/Why-Butter-Is-Better.html)
Zinc is needed for HCL production. A lack of HCL causes a lack of zinc absorption, but so does a lack of K2. K2 apparently is needed for mineral absorption. K2 requires A + D to accomplish this. Sorry for the lack of more technical terminology and references, I'm having a hell of a time finding where I read this; just trying to get my current thoughts out for now.
So what am I getting at? HCL is obviously tremendously important for protein and mineral digestion and absorption; I propose that the lack of HCL production is due to poor mineral absorption from a lack of fat-soluble vitamins. Eating excessive amounts of protein may further disrupt things by requiring far greater HCL and fat soluble vitamins; here we see how excess protein is damaging without sufficient accompanying NUTRITIOUS fat. Supplementing with HCL thus proves to be a temporary bandage, while the real issue will never be resolved without adequate fat soluble vits.
Anyway, that's my best explanation of ZC issues to date. Until I've got a good reason not to, I'll continue my pastured butter + small protein meals supplemented by HCL and tanning.
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Nice post - it'd be nice if you started a journal so we could track your progress easier. Also, Yuri has recently had some success with butter as it seems to be one of the easier fats to digest and could be a good choice for those with impaired digestion.
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Nice post - it'd be nice if you started a journal so we could track your progress easier. Also, Yuri has recently had some success with butter as it seems to be one of the easier fats to digest and could be a good choice for those with impaired digestion.
I'm planning on getting grass finished suet when possible, but for now pasteurized Kerrysgold butter is the only fat available that I trust is truly grass fed. Good to hear it might be more easily digested.
I've still got 90+ lbs of USWellness tallow laying around, but considering its paleness and gag-inducing taste I'm not sure that I trust it has the nutrients I'm seeking. I actually picked up some duck lard at a local 'organic' market and it's a gorgeous deep yellow. Unfortunately it's $10/lb.
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I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.
At least you acknowledged that it's worth looking into, Paleo Donk, but I think the remark about Carnivorous' hypothesis (re: nutrititional deficiency as possibly underlying HCL deficiency) being nitpicking was uncalled for because nutrient deficiency, absorption and intake issues could potentially be at the root of some folks' problems. I agree with Carnivorous that one or more nutrient deficiencies (as well as GAP syndrome--which could underlie the deficiencies) could underlie HCL deficiency, so it relates directly to what you've been discussing regarding that. Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, Dr. Ron Schmid and others report success treating their patients with probiotics, targeted nutrient-rich foods, and food-based supplements (foodlements) where necessary when a generic healthy diet is not sufficient.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily the answer for anyone here, but it's ironic that you dismissed it so easily without giving any indication that you've read much on it when you recently lectured someone else about not doing that. Did you check out any of my links? Sure, HCL alone has reportedly helped some, but many people have reported that HCL alone hasn't been sufficient, including "the majority" of Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride's patients who have tried it (see "GAP Syndrome," Wise Traditions UK 2010, http://vimeo.com/10507542) -- she only uses HCL after trying everything else -- and some folks here.
TigerLily and Satya at DC reported(http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/index.php?topic=521.msg22925#msg229250) that chloride tends to be low in carnivore-type diets and is necessary to produce HCL. Here's the source that TigerLily appears to have gotten her quote from and a couple more:
"The chlorides present in salt constitute the only readily available source of chlorides with which the body can manufacture hydrochloric acid, vital for proper digestion in the stomach. Thus, taking in a small amount of salt prior to the meal allows any deficiency of hydrochloric acid to be made up just before introducing new food." http://chishti.org/foods_of_the_prophet.htm
"The small amount of chlorine usually obtained in table salt as sodium chloride, is a vital and necessary nutrient. It is used by the body to manufacture hydrochloric acid in the stomach for the predigestion of protein." http://www.healingmatters.com/Deadly%20Deficiency%20Deliberately%20Decreed.html
"sodium chloride generates hydrochloric acid, one of the most important of ail digestive secretions." http://www.healthfree.com/celtic_sea_salt.html
Those sources aren't great, but the info does fit in nicely with the info Carnivorous shared and with other reports. For example, salt has been reported by Dr. Wortman and others to help with constipation and HCL deficiency is associated with constipation (see http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Stomach%20acid%20deficiency%20%28Hypochlorhydria%29 and http://www.drz.org/asp/conditions/hcl_deficiency.asp).
Iodine deficiency is known to cause low thyroid function (see http://www.thyroid.org/patients/patient_brochures/iodine_deficiency.html and http://thyroid.about.com/cs/vitaminsupplement/a/iodine.htm), and low thyroid is known to slow HCl production (see "Maximize Your Progress with Hydrochloric Acid," http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article.aspx?ID=27 and "Hydrochloric Acid: Physiological Functions and Clinical Implications," http://www.life-enthusiast.com/index/Education/NutritionDiets/Hydrochloric_Acid), so iodine deficiency could be another nutritional deficiency underlying HCL deficiency.
Magnesium deficiency is also associated with hypothyroidism (see "What You Need To Know About The Benefits Of Magnesium," http://thyroid.about.com/b/2005/05/26/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-benefits-of-magnesium.htm).
Interestingly, wild seaweeds and seafoods tend to contain all the nutrients discussed above in this thread--potassium, sodium chloride, iodine and magnesium. Unfortunately, these are also some of the most expensive foods in inland areas. Generations ago the blood and organs of land mammals was probably higher in iodine, magnesium, salt and/or other nutrients before the depletion of soils by agriculture.
So HCL supplements may not be the whole answer, it may make sense for people to do what Dr. Campbell-McBride recommends and first make sure that they are promoting healthy gut flora and are getting enough nutrients (such as chloride, iodine and magnesium) in their diets before resorting to more extraordinary measures like HCL supplements (and heavy metal cleanses--which I think she handles via animal fats--liver flushes, "detoxes", etc.). Her approach of using HCL as a last step in the process to try when the other measures aren't sufficient seems to make sense. And Carnivorous approach seems rather similar--more comprehensive, rather than focusing so much on HCL. I prefer to try healthy foods first, then foodlements, then supplements as a last resort and try to avoid prescription drugs altogether. However, I may try an HCL supplement again in the future if probiotic high and aged raw meats, foods rich in nutrients and animal fats, foodlements, etc. don't turn out to be sufficient for me. Maybe I require the combination of all these therapies (in the nearer term anyway) and maybe that's why HCL alone didn't work for me. I don't know and I don't make any claims--I'm open minded about it all.
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The body has a remarkable ability to retain sodium. It seems like the natural order to things is to excrete absolutely minimal amounts of sodium/other minerals in urine and sweat. Ingesting salt simply upregulates the kidney's disposal of salt (and probably potassium, if you supplement that in great amounts.) This switch can take some time (IME, weeks +,) so when one suddenly switches to raw meat + fat from SAD you'll experience bouts of low blood sodium.
Maybe, but I've been eating a RPD diet for more than just weeks and Dr. Wortman reports that his patients' experiences have not matched that claim, and other folks here and at other forums have reported benefits from adding some potassium chloride or sodium chloride back into their low-salt, meat-heavy diets. I doubt it would work for everyone, but it seems worth trying for me. Interestingly, a chiropractor did find my urinary salt levels to be low and he had recommended increasing my salt intake, but he seemed like a quack and I didn't consider that it might really be useful to do so until recently, thanks to what I've learned here and at another forum.
"grass-fed" is not a standard of quality. See the widely varying colors of suet and butter. Deeper yellow-orange fat clearly has greater fat-soluble nutrients. Vitamin K2, probably more A, D, and E too.
Yellowness is also not a guarantee of quality, unfortunately. This suggestion of deep yellow color indicating 100% grassfed and high quality keeps coming up but it doesn't match what I've found at my local market, nor what I was told by the folks at the Hardwick Beef 100% grassfed farm, nor what Van and Delfuego were told by John Wood of the US Wellness 100% grassfed farm. There are two brands of 100% grassfed fats and fat-containing meats at my local market as well as a brand that sells pastured venison, bison and elk meats and all of them have fats much lighter in color than the very-yellow fat from an organic farm that is not 100% grassfed. The organic suet is very yellow but it is not 100% grassfed and other than the yellow color it has the same appearance and awful taste and texture of supermarket suet and is the WORST tasting, looking, and feeling brand sold at the market--not the best. So I don't think the color of fat is a good indicator of whether or not it is 100% grassfed or high quality. It's quite clear that grain-finished cattle can produce very yellow fat, and pretty crappy yellow fat at that.
There are multiple factors that determine how yellow beef fat will be. Van pointed out that Jersey cows and older females produce more yellow fat.
Slankers'grassfed tallow is off-white and the light yellow is only easily seen when the tallow is melted (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/all-suet-is-white). John Wood of US Wellness explained why the US Wellness 100% grassfed tallow is off-white instead of yellow :
From: "John Wood" <eathealthy@grasslandbeef.com>
Subject: Rendered fat from Wellness Meats - buyer beware. - Raw Paleo Diet Forum
Van,
Thank you for bringing this up . . . Interesting read. I have very little spare time in my life and would have never known this was going on.
Our tallow has looked the same from day one. Our omega 3 ratios have been stellar every time they were tested at the ISU meat science lab. No starch is included in the diet from start to finish.
Note PDF attached with a the tallow demonstrating a better ratio of omega 6:3 than two lamb cuts tested in June. Lamb will usually be hard to beat. 1.65:1 is pretty good compared to grain fed at 20:1.
The only things that make any sense are as follows on my best guess:
• Jim Gerrish, PhD grazing guru, who worked for Univ. of Missouri for 20 plus years indicated the trick was to get cattle to gain in excess of 1.5 lbs. a day on quality forage and management to reduce the yellow fat. If done properly you will not see the yellow fat.
• Wheat pasture is famous for yellow fat and a lot of winter wheat pasture can be found in southern Oklahoma and North Texas.
• We only harvest animals under 30 months of age. If cows were in the mix, then one would expect to see some yellow fat.
• The last explanation might be rendering technique involving temperature and how much material is separated off after melting.
In closing, we simply render the suet into tallow/lard like our ancestors did 150 years ago. We add nothing to the product to enhance color, flavor etc. It has always been pearly white in color.
Thank you for bringing this up and feel free to post the pdf.
John
"Our Animals Eat Right So You Can Too!
U.S. Wellness Meats
P.O. Box 9
204 East Lafayette
Monticello, MO 63457
PH: (877) 383-0051
Cell: (660) 341-2789
Fax: (573) 767-5475
URL: www.uswellnessmeats.com
Here's what John Wood wrote to Delfuego of ZIOH about this same issue: "Our marketing director looked up your blog and spotted a member who took us to task on the white tallow color last fall. I refuse to engage in blog arguments as there are no winners. plus I barely have time to live the way it is.
At the time, I did speak to a colleague that teaches meats at the Univ. of Missouri (Carol Lorenzon PhD) to help answer how you can produce yellow tallow. Number 1, you have animals between the ages of 3 and 6 that have stored up carotenes. The bovine has no surplus until after they hit ~ 30 months. As [they] roll past 6 years, and several gestations, cows will lose carotenes the rest of their lives as they age. Number 2, you have churn the tallow to add air which will make it light and fluffy and make it look like butter. As a kid, we were forced to churn butter with a hand churn. The more you churned it the brighter the yellow color. We do not kill cows and never will. This is a favorite trick in the grass-fed industry and technically still probably in bounds but we have never harvested a cow or bull. Only yearling cattle between 16 and 26 months of age on average. Time depends on genetics and grass growing conditions."
I believe he's wrong about fat having to be churned to be highly yellow, since the brightly yellow grain-finished fat that's sold in my market is clearly not churned. It still has its original shape. The rest of his comments appear to match what I've seen reported from several sources, including Hardwich Beef when I wrote them about this, if my memory serves me correctly.
Lex also attributed whitish fat from 100% grassfed animals to the animals being young (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/all-suet-is-white/msg9345/#msg9345). The tallow from 100% grassfed Burgundy pasture beef is also off-white (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/all-suet-is-white/msg10990/#msg10990) rather than yellow, as is the excellent quality 100% grassfed suet I get from Hardwick Beef.
John Wood was rather distressed that people were making claims about whitish color indicating that his tallow and suet are not 100% grassfed, so if anyone still doubts that whitish tallow and suet can be 100% grassfed, he probably would appreciate it if you ask him about it instead of posting such claims on the Internet--especially not accusations about "lieing farmers."
Zinc is needed for HCL production.
Thanks for sharing that. I have a history of zinc deficiency and I'm still slightly deficient despite eating tons of raw, 100% grassfed, wild and pastured red meats of many varieties, so that could also be a factor for me.
A lack of HCL causes a lack of zinc absorption, but so does a lack of K2. K2 apparently is needed for mineral absorption.
Interesting, I've experienced an improvement in dental health since I started taking a softgel form of K2, despite the fact that I had been eating raw organs, eggs, suet, marrow, duck legs and other food sources of K2. It seems that some people, like me, have sufficiently damaged intestines and deficiencies from the SAD that we need (temporarily, I hope) more than what raw food alone can provide.
HCL is obviously tremendously important for protein and mineral digestion and absorption; I propose that the lack of HCL production is due to poor mineral absorption from a lack of fat-soluble vitamins. Eating excessive amounts of protein may further disrupt things by requiring far greater HCL and fat soluble vitamins; here we see how excess protein is damaging without sufficient accompanying NUTRITIOUS fat. Supplementing with HCL thus proves to be a temporary bandage, while the real issue will never be resolved without adequate fat soluble vits.
Yes, I think you're onto something here, and this could explain why some people, like me, don't benefit from HCL and why some who benefit from HCL find that the benefit dissappears once they stop taking it--even after lengthy periods of taking it. Presumably the underlying intestinal damage has not fully healed and the malabsorption that results creates nutrient deficiencies that HCL supplements alone, and even with healthy diets, may not be sufficient to resolve in a reasonable amount of time.
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PP, You've made a nice post but again I think I am being misinterpreted which is my own fault. I think its fun and challenging to find out what kind of foods, foodlements and supplements one can add to naturally heal the body. There are probably a great multitude of little dietary odds and ends that can use to abolish minor issues as many here have noted. This is great and all. So is being able to perfect masturbation so that you can achieve an amazing orgasm. But for those who can't get get it up in the first place, other methods are probably worth looking into.
Say, for instance that you knew you had gallstones, through ultrasound, then what do you think you would do? You would both try and find the best food/foodlement/supplement combination along with and more importantly a natural way to cleanse the liver. This would be a very pressing matter. I'm sure you've read my journal - I'm constantly on the look out for ways to improve health no matter what it is. I want to both provide my body with the right nutrition and attack the nasties with other powerful, yet safe 'alternative methods'. Unfortunately, there aren't many people here who have experience with liver flushing or heavy-metal detox but these methods could exponentially outweigh the benefits of all the other masturbatory efforts. I know it must have seemed like I didn't care that much about more conventional dietary methods first - which you rightly pointed out. I'm really trying to push a method that could really do great things for people with little risk - liver flushing. Heavy metal detox is a whole other matter but if you're like me with a mouth laced full of mercury amalgams and you can find a good dentist, its probably a good idea to go ahead and remove them towards the beginning of your path to wellness.
I have experimented with quite a bit and have all of the following at my disposal - dried seaweed, lots of sunlight, zinc, magnesium, french green clay, castor oil, apple cider vinegar, vitamin D, bones, honey, HCL, organs and more. I am all for finding the foods to make ill-health symptoms disappear and will vigorously try and find a solution with them. Though this really destroys simplicity, feels overwhelming and generally adds to my anxiety and addictive personality so can be an overall negative. I don't think my major problem - chronic fatigue - will get alleviated with even the best foods that I could find. Maybe I'm wrong and I suppose it will take years to figure it all out but this is where I'm placing my limp jimmy right now.
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Interesting re US Wellness meats comments. I originally came across negative comments about US Wellness meats on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group. I'm not actually 100% sure but I don't think the white/yellow fat issue was raised, it was just a complaint re the taste not being of 100% grassfed meats.
Hmm, I made a comment on the unhealthy nature of pemmican on another website in answer to a question on the subject, and also got a comment in the reader feedback section from US Wellness who sell a lot of the stuff.
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It is not just US Wellness.
Slanker's meat does not have yellow fat as well. Suet has hint of yellow and sometimes orange, but meat almost exclusively has pearly white fat.
I've heard somewhere that very yellow meat fat comes from old animals who are not efficiently converting beta carotene into vitA.
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So, how much raw meat can a person eat safely on a daily basis? I know that there is no hard proof, but is someone consuming 1 kg of beef daily? More than that?
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So, how much raw meat can a person eat safely on a daily basis? I know that there is no hard proof, but is someone consuming 1 kg of beef daily? More than that?
no one ever can answer this very generalized question.
it'll be very different for 120lb person and 250lb person. it will depend on activity and energy spending. there are simply too many factors.
the right amount is the one that makes you feel the best.
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I agree with the above statement. Just eat as much as you think you need. I only add that adding raw spices might make you eat more than you actually need, that's all.
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It is not just US Wellness.
Slanker's meat does not have yellow fat as well. Suet has hint of yellow and sometimes orange, but meat almost exclusively has pearly white fat.
I've heard somewhere that very yellow meat fat comes from old animals who are not efficiently converting beta carotene into vitA.
The yellow fat that I used only once to make good tasting pemmican came from what the farmer called a "mature" animal. This means more than 30 months old, but I don't think it could be considered old compared to average life span of oxen. It takes at least 3 years on abundant grass for a grass-finished animal to have an appreciable amount of fat - this from a farmer in Virginia.
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So, how much raw meat can a person eat safely on a daily basis? I know that there is no hard proof, but is someone consuming 1 kg of beef daily? More than that?
From the archive of the paleofood list:
Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:58:11
1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and
Physical Performance":
"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.
The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.
At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition,
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."
2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your
weight. There are a few more calculations involved for the
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.
Here's a quote from the book:
"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you
can eat it in unlimited quantities. When you eat more protein than
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is
largely converted into glucose and burned as fuel. It turns you
into a sugar maker and sugar burner! This is not desirable or healthy."
Jim Swayze
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Thaks WIlliam,that is very interesting information indeed.
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Nora Gedgaudas writes in her book that around 40-50g of protein is absolutely plenty for most people. She says 60g is fine for huge athletic individuals under heavy duress (!). I actually began my protein-limiting experiment at around ~120g, and have now dropped it to about half that. I'm somewhat worried about the idea that less than 96-120g of protein will hinder performance and cause muscle loss, but something about these protein estimates seems off to me.
I cannot help but think that there is an enormous difference between the types of protein (and thus amino acid makeup) ingested. Surely a vegan's 120g is the polar opposite in terms of muscular availability compared to an enormous fatty herbivore's flesh (buffalo, mammoth, seal...) Chicken, fish, and other smaller/ harder to live off of animal proteins probably lay somewhere in the middle as far as quality-to-quantity ratio goes. This could possibly play a huge role in the "required" amount of protein; likewise, be of importance in possible life-extension benefits from limiting protein.
Certainly this viewpoint isn't alien to those of us who have chosen raw animal foods. We cannot simply reduce things to nutrient A and nutrient B, and all-encompassing macronutrients. Perhaps 40g of grass finished beef protein goes further than 300g of soy protein.
William, do you have a link to that original thread? I can't find it with google.
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the gripe I have with NG on this is that, although on PD it is possible to maintain a low protein level while maintaining total energy needs through pure animal fats, marrow, or possibly high fat raw dairy, these things are fairly absent from her diet of high vegetation, cooked muscle meat and limited amounts of pasteurized dairy. In a nutshell, I tried to work this out with someone on another board, and its physically impossible to eat a diet within her parameters at such low protein that is NOT severely calorie restricted. As additional nuts/eggs or any other non-pure fat source garner more protein, so I have a hard time taking such low protein recommendations/ceiling from her.
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the gripe I have with NG on this is that, although on PD it is possible to maintain a low protein level while maintaining total energy needs through pure animal fats, marrow, or possibly high fat raw dairy, these things are fairly absent from her diet of high vegetation, cooked muscle meat and limited amounts of pasteurized dairy. In a nutshell, I tried to work this out with someone on another board, and its physically impossible to eat a diet within her parameters at such low protein that is NOT severely calorie restricted. As additional nuts/eggs or any other non-pure fat source garner more protein, so I have a hard time taking such low protein recommendations/ceiling from her.
I'm certainly not taking her word as gospel; her book has no shortage of speculation. That said, I think Phinney's requirements are absolutely ignoring the quality of the protein. Also, when he notes reduction in V02 max, I wonder if the animal protein doses included critical animal fats that he may have ignored. I would not be surprised if the fat they gave the subjects was some flavored vegetable-oil concoction with a poor fatty acid/fat soluble vit. profile. Ex: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Liquigen_edit.jpg I have a hard time imagining Phinney sucessfully feeding SAD cyclists 80%+ of their calories from raw suet, or even butter/cream for that matter.
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Yes, I like completely agree with you about the quality of protein and the enormous difference it would make for daily requirements. I've also seen a study that showed slightly more nitrogen excretion for diets higher in malliard products. This would suggest raw protein would be superior and even more bio-available. Unfortunately I don't think one good study exists that uses what I would define as quality protein and so daily requirements are really just a guess and left as usual to self-experimentation.
I also think that there are probably quite a few study's with ketogenic diets that use really horrible vegetable oils high in omega-6 that could be really devastating to the true nature of the outcomes. Namely those that focus on childhood epilepsy as I've seen a special on tv where the parents of the epileptic child were measuring out canola oil...
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William, do you have a link to that original thread? I can't find it with google.
Paleofood archives are searchable here: http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?S1=paleofood
search term was:Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio
I found the post here:http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A2=ind0904&L=PALEOFOOD&P=R1948&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches
I think that I am eating too much meat, but am already eating =>80% fat as tallow; any more fat and the taste puts me off.
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I just found something interesting I'd like to share from the following paper - http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/cc/article/BlagosklonnyCC5-18.pdf
It's a paper on finding out what paths cause cells to age.
It may seem tempting to soften the thesis, by suggesting that some age-related diseases are due to primary loss-of-functions. However, I am unable to give an example of any age-associated disease caused by a primary loss of function. (I will be happy to analyze any examples provided by the readers and posted on the Cell Cycle Blog). Loss of functions seems to be secondary to initial hyper-function of damaging factors. And hyper-functions eventually damage. Diseases of aging such as hypertension, cancer, stroke, atherosclerosis
all result from hyper-function, hyperplasia and hypertrophy
He uses a great analogy for uncontrolled hyper-function - that if you wanted to make a cup of hot water, a simple program for this would be to light the stove, fill a pot with water and then retrieve the water when its hot. There does not have to be a mechanism in place for shutting off the stove and so the excess water in the pot will eventually evaporate and the pot will absorb collateral damage. He thinks that cells function like this and that there is no genetically pre-programmed off switch in place for cell function.
Earlier in the paper the author discusses two strategies that are used to defend against aging - one being using antioxidants for free radical prevention and presumably other nutrient supplementation and the other "(known as hormesis) is to “stimulate intrinsic
capacity for self-maintenance and repair"
I haven't finished the paper and must leave for now but this all seems brilliant to me, that instead of constantly providing your body with overnutrition(excess protein, excess vitmains and minerals) which to me would seem like a burden (and as the author states "hyper-function") - it would be best to have as little repair as possible, especially if the cell is functioning properly to begin with.
I'm thinking this paper is going to lead down to a path of moderate protein consumption, or even intermittent protein intake where we fast for some period of time before intake. Modern humans have an enormous advantage as we can have food any time we want. Paleo man did not have this luxury and so he would have been forced to consume at more constant intervals to insure survival. So maybe modern humans can hack out a method of consuming protein intermittently that can enhance both quality of life and longevity.
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Some people even speculate that the required amino acids can be produced endogenously by symbiotic organisms in the GI tract, particularly in the context of tight protein recycling. However, the loss of muscle mass is very telling.
There's also the proposition that muscle meats have excessively unbalanced tryptophan, which may be balanced more with the amino acids in collagen/gelatin - this has impact on endocrinological balance. So some people may be alternating between muscle meats and regular bone broths, as well as organs.
This all has the direct implication that we should be eating the entire animal as the whole food, just like the various tribes did around the world.
The other question would be, how discreetly would we like to monitor these processes/effects - as if our moment-to-moment livelihood depends on it. Remember that we're humans with a penchant for fun, despite having lost our natural appetite, so maybe a half serious, half scientific and half fun approach is most productive. Maybe we should just listen more to the quiet voice inside about what we want, instead of stuffing down ratios of this and that in mechanistic fashion - like, "oh, I feel like that tonight".
Maybe we can acknowledge that obsessing over food is a bit weird, yet the obsession is born out of the junk that's been peddled to all humans in our era, so typically, weirdness is virtue...
Also, on another note, hypermetabolism and fast protein cycling is another indicator in longevity (not hypometabolism in the case of calorie restriction), so that may undermine the point about "enough for maintenance" - an example would be rate of hair/nail growth (1 inch or 1cm per month?!)
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The other question would be, how discreetly would we like to monitor these processes/effects - as if our moment-to-moment livelihood depends on it. Remember that we're humans with a penchant for fun, despite having lost our natural appetite, so maybe a half serious, half scientific and half fun approach is most productive. Maybe we should just listen more to the quiet voice inside about what we want, instead of stuffing down ratios of this and that in mechanistic fashion - like, "oh, I feel like that tonight".
Yeah, this is the answer. Maybe one day I'll have access to entire carcasses so that my natural appetite will be restored. Weirdness is completely virtue - never do I feel so free when I am confident enough to be as weird as I want.